Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: flkiter on June 19, 2020, 08:44:45 AM
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I know there's a lot of styles out there but I was wondering what people are hoping the future of foils will be. More glide, easier lift, speed? Are the guys that were sup foiling, now just wing? For myself, my passion is sup foiling so the higher aspect, more glide and speed is what I like but there is way more to this sport than just that.
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Liking the higher aspect wings in general but I believe foils will become more versatile. What does that mean? A single foil which flies well on small waves and will still be easily managed on larger, faster drops. A lot of this depends on the riders technique but foil design plays a big role. These same foils will also be good for wingfoiling since with variable wind speeds come variable foiling speeds. Just my 10 cents divided by 100.
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^^yup, that. I want a foil that turns well, goes fairly fast, and maintains lift as it turns. Right now my foil gear that I schlep around in my truck consists of two masts, two fuselages, four front wings, three stabilizers, and four wingdings. As well as hardware, tools, a lot of lines and crap.
I want one front wing that can lift my fat ass at a reasonable speed, goes fast, glides well, and turns.
I suspect what that would look like for me is a gull-wing version of the 101. The only problem with the 101 right now is that it doesn't turn for shit.
I'd love to be able to carry everything for winging on my fat tire e-bike. I can get close right now if the wind speed forecast is accurate. The bike is ready, I just need to trim down the gear requirements.
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Hah, you beat me to it Bill :)
posting anyway...
If it would be possible to have a design that has the glide of an Axis 1010 but improved roll rate I'd probably buy one. I've become pretty used to it now not having switched back to my more surf style wings in a while (I should do that for reference...)
The 1010 has been close to ideal for downwinding and general lawn mowing here in the Gorge. Even at my weight (about 200 in a wetsuit), I don't feel a need to try the bigger version. Assume the 910 would be easier to link turns but don't really want to to be switching around what's under the water (one wing solution), just what's above.
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The guys are loving the 1010 for wingfoiling in light winds and also downwind in the breeze.
Here's a friend of mine yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=340137070303116
Anyway, the future is to have a quiver, just like in other sports. You have a few wings (2, 3, 4 or even more) and trade them depending on what you will do that day (SUP, prone, downwind, wing, pump), etc. That's why modular foils sets work great!
P.S. I'm loving the Axis 1000 on the waves! Can really go for steep drops without popping out with no control and I rarely breach (only when I do mistakes). Awesome speed and pumping. I'm not carving on it (still on a learning phase), but I can change direction easily. My quiver right now is the 920, 1020 and 1010, but in the near future it will be the 1000, the 1010 and the 1150.
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For me it all comes down to lift-drag ratio. I want the same lift I'm getting from the GL210 with less drag. The jump from IWA/M200 to GL210 was revolutionary and mostly comes down to massively reduced drag. That either results in higher speed capability on a given wave OR going the same speed but requiring a lot less wave slope/power/size. For me, it is all about the latter - I want to play on smaller waves or waves that are less critical or waves that aren't even breaking at all. Part of this is coming from a place in the world that is just too damn crowded and I want to ride zones that nobody else wants to be. Right now with the GL, I can ride waves that only the longboarders want, and I can pick them up more outside and/or more on the shoulder than the longboarders - and therefore I'm riding with nobody within 25ft of me. But I want to ride where nobody would even be close. That means riding waves when the longboarders won't even paddle out.
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SUP and winging foils will go in two different design directions.
I have access to info on where winging is going. The wave riding, winging down winders, in Maui, are cruising at 18 and hitting 28. I’ve seen private video of it. It would blow your head off to see the speed they are ripping that run, and the ocean swells apart at. Down right scary and super fun looking.
The foil designs need to keep pace with where the wind wing designs will be next year, and each year after that. No different than the early years of windsurfing. Sail design dictated board design. Wings will dictate where foils need to go.
Foils are already falling behind.
SUP I’m not concerned about. We have plenty of choices now.
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https://youtu.be/5NBpREEC6l0
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Wow! That left a smile on my face! Thanks for the video DW. So fast. You are right > Foils will need to keep up with the wings.
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Wow! That left a smile on my face! Thanks for the video DW. So fast. You are right > Foils will need to keep up with the wings.
And that was the bad video. I’ve seen some real high quality video, where the visual impact of the speed is more mind blowing.
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Surf foiling I know exactly what I want, so having the wings I like in 10 different sizes is on my wish list, 1000-2000.
Wing foiling - a demo van at every good spot stocked full of foil sizes and shapes so I can try a bunch of stuff back to back.
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For winging, I want an Axis 1000 that I can use in 8 Knots. If it could also rub my back, grill sausages, and bring me beer that would be sweet.
I have been twisting carbon masts on the beach this week (tractor steering wheel test) and the Axis Carbon masts are the stiffest I have twisted (Moses, GoFoil). That makes a great platform and the reduced mast tips and streamlined base adds nicely to foil performance. All this stuff counts.
I would love to see Axis do a wing specific "freeride" (sorry) line that offers a little more meat than the 900 and 1000 but not to the extent of the 920 and 1020 and keeps the turny playfulness.
There are a lot of options now in the meter plus wings but we could stand a range in the 920-950 range that are less extreme than the 900, 1000, or 920. Not that area is the end all measure but the 920 is 1816 Projected. What if we had a 920 that was 1650ish? Thinner, a little less chord. Or approaching it from the 1000 which has 1310 projected, what if we had that beefed up to 1500ish? I think two middle options would be very well received by wingers.
I don't think high aspect is the end all for winging and there is a huge range in what various brands are calling high aspect.
I would still want the 1000 but there is a lot of fun to be had on light days and a few quick, turny middle sizes would be great.
I am willing to leave a little top end speed on the table. That downwinder video is very impressive in terms of speed but those guys are mowing right right through those swell. It looks exciting for sure and if it was a race that would be unreal. My guess is that most riders will want to slow that back a bit and enjoy the push.
This is also probably very sport specific. When you think of surf foiling vs Wing foiling for instance in terms of the forces being applied (or not) in this video it is clear how different the needs are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1abYwkEscE
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A high performance tool like a hydrofoil is all about trade-offs so there will never be a foil that does everything well. Therefore, the need for foil quivers for specific conditions.
I just don't see speed being a big thing for wing foils, ultimately. If you have the conditions to wing down wind super fast, I would think a paddle would be better to have than a wing. And for foil racing, a kite is unbeatable.
My ideal wing foil would have good early lift, pump well and glide well. As I get more experience and get into bigger waves, quick turning will become more important.
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I think some are missing the simple fact that you are going to over-foil and crash a lot doing “winging” downwinders (when the swell is good) until we get foils that CAN go faster, while still having the glide to SURF.
Just as tow-in guys have already seen it. Tow in guys have been forced to use kite foils. Wingers are starting to use kite foils. The manufacturers need to react and produce wings to meet this challenge.
Guys are already seeing this, in little ole Cocoa Beach on 6 ft days.
It’s not about racing, nobody is racing. I’m measuring speed to find those wings.
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Ken must have been late for an appointment in that Maliko video above. Not once do any of those guys grab the LE handle and relax.
A lot more of that in this one (already posted here somewhere)
https://youtu.be/fpuE8hKdHJA
Note the guy on the Ensis is clearly on a lower aspect, smaller, more surf oriented foil wing. Does a lot more pumping and quick turns.
The Axis 1010 would handle the conditions in either of these two videos with aplomb. Probably a better Maliko wing than for the Gorge with their longer period swell. Top and minimum speeds I've got no issue with, over-foiling in downwinding is always my fault and mainly a factor of fatigue.
After a long period up on the foil I tend to lose a sense of the vertical dimension. Just moving my feet a little and/or a couple of pumps brings it back into focus.
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In spite of the video showing guys doing it, I still don't see the point of trying to go super fast down wind with a wing. Wing down winders where you can carve and ride swell and not work to get back upwind is great but if you wanted to AND had the conditions to wing down wind fast, a paddle would be much less cumbersome than a wing. I don't see a market for fast wing foils. There are much better ways to go fast with a foil than using a wing.
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It's interesting to see what people are looking to come out. I didn't think going faster on a wing in the waves would be one of them. Looks like a few companies are going that route like Moses. I wonder if Mike's Lab will have a speed foil for winging soon. Very cool to see the foil sport break into so many disciplines. Just imagine a few years ago the options were so limited and now it's a plethora of options. Wonder when it'll level out like kite foils did.
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This image still captures the ideal of swell riding for me. Plenty of speed to gouge but still sticking with a swell.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65234467_2533994016624700_2133699405730021376_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=m6JVA6cMwoYAX-_DR91&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=0e76a3bdc974d62b2cc5c9282d218df3&oe=5F1592A9)
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Many want the glide found in high aspect wings with the turning speed and roll agility of a lower aspect wing.....there is a way to get both in one foil and that is with a monofoil. You give up a lot of pitch stability but the reduction in drag is astounding if you cut off the fuse beyond the front wing. I have a Delta monofoil I use for kiting and it takes a few sessions to get used to but your body learns to manage the pitch instability pretty quickly. The wing is 1500 cm2 with low a AR but the glide is amazing (it makes even small kite foils feel draggy) and it turns on a dime. Even if a monofoil concept is too radical for most, I think there is a lot of unexplored potential in minimizing the stabilizer/fuselage to achieve better glide without giving up turning speed.
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This is also probably very sport specific. When you think of surf foiling vs Wing foiling for instance in terms of the forces being applied (or not) in this video it is clear how different the needs are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1abYwkEscE
Well, I learnt something from that vid and actually applied it today. Previously, I was finding that my ride height was dropping quite markedly each time I was being hit by a gust and accelerating hard in the harness. Put a bit more stab angle on and that went away, but had another issue! I was leaning the board so far over to windward when going upwind that the tip of the foil was breaking the surface in some of the chop troughs, ventilating, stalling and crashing. This is on an 85 cm mast and Naish Thrust L, which has quite downturned tips, 4m Pulse in 20-25 knots average, but very gusty.
Don't know whether I can change anything apart from technique to resolve that one or even if a different foil design would make a difference. Do have a 100cm mast coming soon which should help.
Coming back downwind was a total hoot. The foil is so loose and maneuverable, with a low stall speed which was really fun, as I was riding gusts on flat water, rather than waves, some forgiveness on the stall speed meant I could leave it late to power back up again.
I'm not sure where that puts me, thinking about this thread. What do I want from a foil? Given I'm only riding this one due to unforeseen circumstances, I'm now pretty pleased with how it's running for my upwind downwind loops, in most areas apart from one - swapping feet after gybes is hard - very twitchy. Nothing better technique won't solve, but a bit frustrating. It's quick enough, seems to go upwind nicely locked in on it's side with its flat downturned tips, really engaging (not a cruiser!), and super fun downwind.
Perhaps someone with more experience could pick holes in it, but the issues I have with it I just see technique hurdles to be overcome. My new foil is coming with the new mast, and I genuinely don't know which I'd have preferred today. I've ridden it once and loved it (not in conditions like today) but maybe the slightly tricky but sooo fun Thrust L might have overcome the smooth ease of the Gong Curve/Pro L. Time will tell, but I think I'll have a soft spot for the Thrust whatever...
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Wings........ that are affordable. :-[
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Many want the glide found in high aspect wings with the turning speed and roll agility of a lower aspect wing.....there is a way to get both in one foil and that is with a monofoil. You give up a lot of pitch stability but the reduction in drag is astounding if you cut off the fuse beyond the front wing. I have a Delta monofoil I use for kiting and it takes a few sessions to get used to but your body learns to manage the pitch instability pretty quickly. The wing is 1500 cm2 with low a AR but the glide is amazing (it makes even small kite foils feel draggy) and it turns on a dime. Even if a monofoil concept is too radical for most, I think there is a lot of unexplored potential in minimizing the stabilizer/fuselage to achieve better glide without giving up turning speed.
I dont want to be giving away any secrets but stay tuned 😉😉
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The beauty of high and ultra high aspect wings with appropriate washout is that you only need to activate the most central portions of the wing during times of excessive speed. Once you slow down, adding a little more Angle of attack allows the outer portions of the wing to engage. This has already been accomplished by many makers and manufactures. Hitting upon that real magic combination is only a matter of continued experimentation. We will get there sooner or later.
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washout is a twist in the angle of attack down the length of the wing? Are you saying that the outer sections would have less angle of attack than the middle section?
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The beauty of high and ultra high aspect wings with appropriate washout is that you only need to activate the most central portions of the wing during times of excessive speed. Once you slow down, adding a little more Angle of attack allows the outer portions of the wing to engage. This has already been accomplished by many makers and manufactures. Hitting upon that real magic combination is only a matter of continued experimentation. We will get there sooner or later.
That's what I used to do with slope glider designs to get speed and still have enough lift to recover in looping maneuvers. Push the nose down and the only lift is at the wingtips. At the end of a long, accelerating dive you lift the nose a tiny fraction and the glider climbs like it has JATO boosters. Lift the nose a little too much and you leave the wings behind.
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In answer to Jondrums question, Yes. Relative to the angle of attack of the wings center ( which is usually set at positive 2-3 degrees relative to the fuselage), the wing tips would only be about 1.5 to 2.0 degrees positive AoA, relative to the fuselage. To put in a more easily understood way. I just make my wings with about 1 to 1.5 degress downward twist at the wing tips relative to the wings center. This twist is worked in gradually over the length of the wing. So for these very long, high aspect wings, this twist is very gradual and hence makes for a very versatile and forgiving wing. So in essence, the center of the wing is always lifting while the wings outer ends only lift when needed.
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Thanks Peter, your response reminded me that I was talking about wash-in, not wash-out. Most wing designers consider wash-in to be absolutely evil, but it's useful in an esoteric version of RC slope gliding.
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that is so sweet SUPeter. I love the concept. Are any of the high aspect wings incorporating this design feature today that we know of?
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I think some are missing the simple fact that you are going to over-foil and crash a lot doing “winging” downwinders (when the swell is good) until we get foils that CAN go faster, while still having the glide to SURF.
Just as tow-in guys have already seen it. Tow in guys have been forced to use kite foils. Wingers are starting to use kite foils. The manufacturers need to react and produce wings to meet this challenge.
Guys are already seeing this, in little ole Cocoa Beach on 6 ft days.
It’s not about racing, nobody is racing. I’m measuring speed to find those wings.
It will help as people start providing OBJECTIVE speeds to these assessments. When my TRACE was working I could strip out data points on individual Wave Rides. This means recording speed every 1/5 of a second. Graphs looked like this for the old school GoFoil KAI vs. Maliko 200 vs. IWA.
My newer GL 210 has the same speed profile as the IWA but much better glide. The GL 140 handles much higher speeds on a regular basis meaning 20 to 22 mph. Up to 24 or even 26 mph without massively loading up and throwing me.
The Std Deviation -1 to +1 shows a pretty believable range of "Comfort" flying the wing. Within +/- 1 Std Deviation the wing was comfortably flying vs sinking or needing to load up front foot pressure to keep from breaching.
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I believe a wing can be designed to never load up too much regardless of speed. On some of my newer prototypes. I have been unable to find the high end max speeds. Time to get a bigger outboard motor I guess. Using ultra high aspect wings and appropriate washout is my answer to this problem. Others may find better answers, such as using aerodynamic twist versus geometric twist. My goal of creating a surfable wing to be used in wing foiling is attainable. Of course, every design feature leads to compromises elsewhere.
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Sorry to post on this older thread but I wish to thank Tom Speers for the creation of the H105 wing profile. This profile was originally designed for hydrofoil sailing dingies meant to travel at 15-20 kts. Is not that what wing foiling is? A very small hydrofoil sailing dingy. I initially created a high aspect wing using this profile for SUP wave foiling. Since I started wing foiling, this foil has become my go to wing. Span is 42.5", Cord is 7.5". 1.5 degrees of continuous washout. It is a delight to fly and is very easy to control at all the speeds I have experienced in our gusty Maine winds.
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Sheesh, what a difference a few weeks can make. I want to retract my earlier post. I am fully blown away that a stabilizer change would turn my wish list on its ear, but it has. I am still finding North but with the 390 tail on the 900 and 1000 I am feeling really well covered.
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For winging, I want an Axis 1000 that I can use in 8 Knots. If it could also rub my back, grill sausages, and bring me beer that would be sweet.
Just a reminder of all those requirements, Admin! ;)
It's comments like Admin's and my own experience with stab adjustment which explains why I bought a couple of stabs to try with my new (still waiting to arrive) foil. Quite remarkable the difference they make, and having adjustable stabs would sway future foil purchase decisions...
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For winging, I want an Axis 1000 that I can use in 8 Knots. If it could also rub my back, grill sausages, and bring me beer that would be sweet.
Just a reminder of all those requirements, Admin! ;)
It's comments like Admin's and my own experience with stab adjustment which explains why I bought a couple of stabs to try with my new (still waiting to arrive) foil. Quite remarkable the difference they make, and having adjustable stabs would sway future foil purchase decisions...
This is my sequence:
DW mentions that he is loving the 390's. I have the 370 and 400 and I am dubious that a little angle change will make a difference for me. I take no action.
I place a mast order with Axis and Evan lets me know that they have a 390 in stock. Still dubious, no action.
A friend is out at the beach measuring angles of stabilizers in relation to front wings. He has the angle measure setup in the Delta video. I see it, I get it but I am skeptical and make no change.
Bill gets his gear measured, shims and notices a change.
I finally give in (still not really trusting) and buy a 390. It sits.
Flash to this week. Lightning.
A few degrees less down on a dinky little tail wing, whoulda thunk it.
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A few degrees less down on a dinky little tail wing, whoulda thunk it.
It's almost as if the stab is the brains and the main foil the brawn... *
[*Statement may be utter BS...]
Foil development must be a nightmare trying to unpick the relationship between main foil and stab.
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Nope you nailed it! Stabs are all of your stability, and most of your (speed limiting) drag.
In a few weeks you will see some very interesting developments in this area ;) ;)
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Chopping the tips has been common but I like to reduce the cord. Less cord= less drag but still get the lift in turns. A little belt sander action.
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Chopping the tips has been common but I like to reduce the cord. Less cord= less drag but still get the lift in turns. A little belt sander action.
Yes, I've heard stab mods are pretty common but assumed that would become less now there is so much more choice and foil developers should offer what the market is asking for.
Working on the 'no free lunch' assumption, I guess your mods are at the expense of ease of use, or is it just looser / more manoeuvrable? Any undesirable consequences?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pe4HMEH6wQ