Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Dwight (DW) on June 17, 2020, 05:00:18 PM
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For those of us who want to compare notes.
I’ll start.
Flat water, no help from a wave.
Foil Moses W1100 (2100 sq cm)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50017666466_8c69996e6a_k.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50017927107_ad3f90c7f0_k.jpg)
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Regular GL-180 20.1 mph, no waves.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50017796431_ad7195c10f_k.jpg)
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18.4 mph on my 1550 Armstrong and 5m Swing in sheet glass 15-20mph. Think I hit that speed trying to race my buddy kiting a 15M foil kite. Wish I had put on the 1050. (Thought my watch had lost the data from this third session the other day but it just popped up on my phone with my new personal best speed and overall distance)
(https://i.ibb.co/BsFSC16/C4-C9-AB93-9497-4-BBE-9-FA8-70-FD6-B0-EBD9-C.jpg)
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(Thought my watch had lost the data from this third session the other day but it just popped up on my phone with my new personal best speed and overall distance)
Funny you mention that, since that’s what’s happening to me a lot with Sports Tracker on my IPhone in the waterproof case (and why I’ve ordered a Garmin gps watch). Anyway I got a few minutes of tracking before it quit out at the Island. My only go-fast try was the first few hundred yards headed out. 18.1 mph Max with my Gong pro XL (1900 sq cm and 2.5 L volume). The reason the speed goes to zero right after that was catching a wing tip (very first time on my new 6m Echo) :P........... After it quit at the island I did another 10 min of speed runs thinking it was still on but no luck. Without my ole guy readers I can’t see shit 6” in front of my nose! Oh well, like the fish that got away, I’ll take that that as a good baseline and work on improving it. Maybe my 1.35 L Veloce XL will show up in 4 weeks and I can stand a chance against those skinny GL’s :). Oh yeah, that 6m Echo is a beast!
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Between picture attach issues and double posting weirdness........(guess the readers don’t help much......).
FWIW, they say stabilizer choice has a lot to do with speed. I used a 45cm rear wing with my Pro XL. Patrice said the kite stabilizer would add more speed. My rear wing with the Moses 1100 is the 450. Very surfy but way slow, so I’m not even trying to go fast with the 1100.
Also guessing that a short fuselage adds to the pitch sensitivity at higher speeds. More entertaining crashes....
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FWIW, they say stabilizer choice has a lot to do with speed. I used a 45cm rear wing with my Pro XL. Patrice said the kite stabilizer would add more speed.
Or the Veloce stab? I've got the L and XL Pro/Curve on order and added the 47 Veloce stab to use with the XL, which will be my light wind foil.
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FWIW, they say stabilizer choice has a lot to do with speed. I used a 45cm rear wing with my Pro XL. Patrice said the kite stabilizer would add more speed.
Or the Veloce stab? I've got the L and XL Pro/Curve on order and added the 47 Veloce stab to use with the XL, which will be my light wind foil.
Hmm, never thought of that but good point. I also got the 47 Veloce stabilizer to go with the XL Veloce front wing. I suppose I could also try the Veloce stabilizer with my XL pro to possibly squeeze out some more speed.
The Gong pro (Curve) foils are amazingly well balanced. The spongy Al mast and the limited carbon mast size options are the only real drawback. Those wings should work great for you.
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I went full 'midlife crisis' and ordered the 100cm monoblock mast as well...
Got a chance to ride the L last weekend - had a blast! I really did think long and hard between the XL Curve or the Veloce but went for the Curve as the more all round option, but won't be surprised if I end up with the Veloce as well! Great thing about Gong prices...
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A small stab can make you slower than a big one, at the very bottom end of a front wings range limit.
I spend a lot of time at the low limit of what is possible for winging.
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I went full 'midlife crisis' and ordered the 100cm monoblock mast as well...
Got a chance to ride the L last weekend - had a blast! I really did think long and hard between the XL Curve or the Veloce but went for the Curve as the more all round option, but won't be surprised if I end up with the Veloce as well! Great thing about Gong prices...
Cool on the 100cm monoblock..,,,,that’s one bad ass mast! I’m looking forward to the Veloce but no way would I get rid of the XL pro right now. Speaking of which I tried another speed run today with the same gear as last time (XL pro/45cm stab/75cm Axis mast/6m Echo). Got 18.7 mph Max. I figure if I kept at it I could break 19 but no real desire to try. It gets a bit unstable at that speed. I’ll wait for the faster foil
What’s more interesting was seeing how fast I could ride to my weak side. I got to 16.9 mph and that was a bit more intimidating, ........but still fun 😱.
A small stab can make you slower than a big one, at the very bottom end of a front wings range limit.
I spend a lot of time at the low limit of what is possible for winging.
Interesting. I just went by Patrice’s forum comments, but I’ve never really tested it myself other than my Moses 450 versus 483 comparison. Seems like “smaller” can include different parameters; width , area, Max thickness, volume, etc
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I'm curious what wingding speeds are.
I've seen as a much as a 5mph variation from garmin to gopro when wave foiling.
What's the method for verifying speed accuracy? Or what's a proven accurate way to measure?
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A small stab can make you slower than a big one, at the very bottom end of a front wings range limit.
I spend a lot of time at the low limit of what is possible for winging.
That's useful feedback to have, and validates my choice to go with the 47 stab... Thanks
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Cool on the 100cm monoblock..,,,,that’s one bad ass mast! I’m looking forward to the Veloce but no way would I get rid of the XL pro right now. Speaking of which I tried another speed run today with the same gear as last time (XL pro/45cm stab/75cm Axis mast/6m Echo). Got 18.7 mph Max. I figure if I kept at it I could break 19 but no real desire to try. It gets a bit unstable at that speed. I’ll wait for the faster foil
What’s more interesting was seeing how fast I could ride to my weak side. I got to 16.9 mph and that was a bit more intimidating, ........but still fun 😱.
Think the monoblock will work for me for a couple of reasons, more comfort at speed being one (greater margin for error, keeps the foil well away from interference from chop etc), although it's not being sold as a speed/race mast.
I plan to get out today, and will switch on my GPS watch to start getting some baseline numbers on my Thrust foil. Should have done the same yesterday, was totally maxed out on my 5m in 25ish knots after the breeze picked up more than forecast...
Intimidating is the word! It's not like windsurfing where you can just really sink into and commit to the harness and let mast foot pressure drive you faster. The whole 'altitude control' bit of foiling makes it all a bit more.....tense!
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Broke another speed record yesterday for 2100 sq cm of wing. Moses W1100 with a 6m wing. 18.8 mph
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50043197228_050abd0fac_h.jpg)
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Never mind. Beat my record in 15 mph today. 6m and 2100 sq cm of wing. Amazed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50045032197_6eb3d795ab_w.jpg)
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Never mind. Beat my record in 15 mph today. 6m and 2100 sq cm of wing. Amazed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50045032197_6eb3d795ab_w.jpg)
That’s cookin!
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Never mind. Beat my record in 15 mph today. 6m and 2100 sq cm of wing. Amazed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50045032197_6eb3d795ab_w.jpg)
Nice speed! Its a race to get to 20mph lol. You should post the details of your fastest waves, rather than the session summary page. If you tap on the 19.6 mph bar, it will give you a speed graph and gps track of that specific 'wave'. That way we can see if your 19.6 was right before a big stack ;D You will also be able to see if you are sustaining high speeds or getting odd spikes.
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Thanks for the tip. Here is the run.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50046430778_e0881ef1f0.jpg)
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Last year when I was riding with Ken Winner he was hitting 25 and sometimes 26 mph on a downwinder from Maliko in 18ft seas!
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I'm curious what wingding speeds are.
I've seen as a much as a 5mph variation from garmin to gopro when wave foiling.
What's the method for verifying speed accuracy? Or what's a proven accurate way to measure?
You have good reason to wonder. The only way to get accurate short interval speed information from a GPS is to find a GPS with doppler capability. That used to be relatively easy to find, but modern miniature GPS systems don't have it--they use a calculated speed based on distance differential over time. Given general location error band that yields an accuracy range of about +/-1mph at best and performance variations and conversion of a 3D location to 2D speed can make for pretty wild swings.
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1) Can people please post Windspeeds with these wave speeds please.
2) The Dawn Patrol app shown above is using the iWatch (or maybe the iPhone) but has been pretty accurate.
I have been tracking wave speeds since 2015. Almost every wave starting with the TRACE GPS (then the iWatch). 9,000+ waves. The TRACE GPS recorded a GPS reading 5 times per second. Typically it also recorded ~ 20% faster speeds than the RipCurl watches which were always slow.
The TRACE and the iWatch have been nearly in perfect lock-step on speed which was a good sign. The only downside I have found on the iWatch is that the distance is recorded Point to Point (for a single wave for example). The turns, cutbacks and rare foil loop do not appear to add distance. The algorithm may compensate for back and forth sailing but I have not tested.
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15 mph wind dead flat water hit 19.6
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It’s beginning to look like I’ll never break the 20 mph barrier with (Moses W1100) 2100 sq cm of front wing. I tired hard today. Crashed hard twice trying. I’m having a blast trying.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50105960377_554e1ccb6a_c.jpg)
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You sure are putting a lot of work into that! Curious if you’re going just as fast to your weak side as your strong side? I’m always slower to my weak weak side, or maybe just less gutsy :P
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I do ride about the same both ways. I can handle the same power and speed.
That said, I’m not doing speed runs weak side. I’m not crazy 😜
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It's odd, but I think I'm faster on my weak side. I also get up on foil easier going goofy. I might be faster just because I have less control, or perhaps having less control makes it feel fast.
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Well.... I thought I was going pretty fast. After two sessions with my newly acquired Minnie Mouse watch and the Dawn patrol app It appears mostly I'm peaking in the mid to high teens as well (Axis 1010 / 390). First session was mostly lawn mowing with the 3.6 Naish, second one yesterday, the 13 mile downwinder from to Celilo to Rufus, 3.6, both 20-35+.
So zero reaching on the downwinder, what I'm seeing is it's actually a hair faster riding waves than just using the 3.6 on a broad reach. One anomaly to 19.x but most peaks in 17.x range. Generally I'm trying to slow down though so as to stay within a wave. I thought it might help in my decision to purchase a smaller wing for the Axis setup (860, 900, or 910).
Will report back once I get the Gong Large Pro setup going, just from kiting it I know that wing is a fair bit faster (24cm shorter span, about 100sqcm less area). Trouble is there can be places on a long downwinder where the wind is light and it can be hard to get started again after a breach or rest stop. The Gong might not be enough...
Any way to control how Dawn Patrol breaks the session up into segments (less often would be preferable)?
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Drop off foil for a brief second. Dawn Patrol will record it as end of wave, and start again.
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Top speeds will be higher when using a smaller foil with thinner profiles. Big foil wings over 2000 cm2 make it easier to learn and give you more time in transitions but really limit the top speed.
A while back our group of Oahu wing foilers did a time trial GPS race in Hawaii Kai, the goal was to complete 3 miles in the shortest total time, as part of a virtual race. My best time was 10 minutes, the average speed was 17.6 mph over the 3 mile course.
I was using a 5'2 Blue Planet Carver foilboard, Levitaz shaka M foil (1500 cm2) with 96 cm mast, 4M Duotone wing.
My max speed was higher (23 mph= 37 kph) during my first three runs using a 5M Duotone but I was not able to complete the 3 miles without falling in smooth water with strong offshore wind, around 15-25 knots. Using a 4M wing was easier to control, so although the top speed was a little lower I was able to finish without falling in, resulting in the fastest average time on the 3 mile course.
This is the GPS track of the course:
connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/4861721009
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Drop off foil for a brief second. Dawn Patrol will record it as end of wave, and start again.
I'm assuming what's happening is because of the river current there are points where I'm going so slow it's breaking a multi mile ride up into sometimes 3+ waves. It's easy to tell when zooming in what was a fall or stop though as I'll always start out going across the wind.
Robert averaging 17+ over three miles is remarkably quick and sounds like a blast8) Time to do some experimenting....
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Alex Aguera just posted a video hitting 37 mph with his NL wings and BRM wing. Check Gofoils Insta:
https://www.instagram.com/gofoil/?hl=en
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I'd buy 37 km/h ::)
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(https://i.ibb.co/bmj6pBw/0-FDCDD3-C-09-F0-414-B-8816-97-DDD4-E08-EBA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SyD6qnY)
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Oh I looked, not buying ::)
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Alex Aguera just posted a video hitting 37 mph with his NL wings and BRM wing. Check Gofoils Insta:
https://www.instagram.com/gofoil/?hl=en
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Looks like he's on a 111 cm. mast -- in other words stilts.
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At the 9:23 mark, just before his jump, Kai Lenny hits a very impressive speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zk9IBYc-Aw
Here he is concentrating on just speed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYu9JjoAHeU
Maybe these foils will help with speed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os7IzZ1vuXY
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The Fone Phantom review is good. It sounds like he likes the type of foils I like. I bet I’d love the Fone foils.
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I'm not so sure about the GoPro camera being accurate for speed recording, but it might be fine for averaging speed. Getting accurate speed from a GPS is challenging unless you are using a GPS designed explicitly for measuring speed. Still, 30 MPH is impressive, and it lends credence to Alex's 36 mph claim. Alex is heavier than Kai (which helps with speed runs) and he has a lot of experience in speed trials and foil racing with kites.
Kai's comments on losing a kite at that location (Kealia Pond) made me laugh. I lost my 4.2 close to that location. I launched from the canoe Hale but was winging near the boardwalk when my leash came off the wing. It did indeed, blow away from me almost instantly and head for Tahiti. I proned in and was met with a variety of emergency services--a tourist assumed i was in big trouble and called 911--including lifeguards, who radioed to the guard station and got another lifeguard to retrieve the wing with a jetski. The wing is the 4.2 F-one that Admin claims looks like a hobo's handkerchief. The lifeguard stabbed the wing in the bladders to deflate it, and it got torn in a couple of places bringing it back, but I got it repaired, and it's fine, though a bit used-looking.
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The Fone Phantom review is good. It sounds like he likes the type of foils I like. I bet I’d love the Fone foils.
I spent a day testing the Phantom 1780 and Axis 1150 back to back. I had not rode either foil before then. Rode the 1150 first and was blown away. The 1780 was very similar to my F-One gravity 2200 except being thinner it was a bit faster but not by much. The shape is quite similar to the Gravity wings just thinner. It obviously didnt have the low end take off as my 2200 but rode similar. Banks turns really well. It just didn't have the same glide and magic as the 1150 did for my size. It would be a great foil for a normal sized rider. I ended up not keeping the Phantom 1780 and kept the 1150 but it's really hard to compare these foils as they are quite different.
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Those F-ones look great. Has anyone tried the Gravity 1200 and the Phantom 1280? Almost the same area (1245 vs 1280) but 700 wide vs 860.
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Looks like Alan is doing speed runs on this Duotone prototype mini boom wing. Wing looks good too
https://www.instagram.com/p/CE3PJbrDnJY/?igshid=ay6pt4kwstpy
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Here's what I noticed about the prototype wing Alan Cadiz was riding:
1) No canopy between the centre bladder and the main wing material (unlike most of the new V2 wings);
2) several mini battens at the trailing edge of the wing;
3) full length boom unlike the mini boom seen with the Armstrong A Wing and the new Cabrinna (sp.) wing;
4) no leach flutter;
5) small boxy windows (located to be useful and small to save weight?);
6) very rectangular shaped wing; and
7) bowed shaped centre strut to allow more room between the strut and boom for hands.
It seems reasonable to me that at some point a manufacturer will offer a wing having the option to remove the hand straps and substitute a full length (for a wing) boom. Perhaps the company would allow you to oder it with both the straps and boom for "x" amount of money or save some money by choosing only the strap or boom option.
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Here's what I noticed about the prototype wing Alan Cadiz was riding:
1) No canopy between the centre bladder and the main wing material (unlike most of the new V2 wings);
2) several mini battens at the trailing edge of the wing;
3) full length boom unlike the mini boom seen with the Armstrong A Wing and the new Cabrinha (sp.) wing;
4) no leach flutter;
5) small boxy windows (located to be useful and small to save weight?);
6) very rectangular shaped wing; and
7) bowed shaped centre strut to allow more room between the strut and boom for hands.
It seems reasonable to me that at some point a manufacturer will offer a wing having the option to remove the hand straps and substitute a full length (for a wing) boom. Perhaps the company would allow you to oder it with both the straps and boom for "x" amount of money or save some money by choosing only the strap or boom option.
Correction: I should have said that the centre strut was directly connected to the canopy unlike most V2 wings.
This wing looks very much like the Unit but with a boom rather than handles.
When it comes to wings and speed I have seen another wing, which uses a rigid frame like the one Kai Lenny was using in his speed video. It will be interesting to see if rigid framed wings become a "thing".
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Rigid framed wings have been a thing for at least 20 years--for ice skating and skiing. Bret Likle was playing with one last winter in Maui. The biggest problem is that they sink. Even if you stick some floats on them to keep them from sinking, if you don't get them out of the water in a hurry the tubes (carbon) fill with water and drain slowly--mega heavy. With some clever tweaks even the currently available rigid wings could be practical.
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I'm not so sure about the GoPro camera being accurate for speed recording, but it might be fine for averaging speed. Getting accurate speed from a GPS is challenging unless you are using a GPS designed explicitly for measuring speed.
Kai is correct - IMO - gopro's GPS telemetry is very accurate.
Garmin's 1Hz sample rate was all we had back in the day. Gopro is at 18Hz.
Gopro needed software for on screen telemetry (to catch up to Garmin) years ago. Gopro acquired Dashware (that was my old program) and promptly ruined it. The software engineers at Dashware bailed. Anyhow, gopro/dashware works fine. I prefer to design less intrusive data on my videos.
I've moved on to Racerender. It's very stable, flexible and easy to use. It automatically grabs, joins and integrates the gopro embedded telemetry. Very easy to use.
As for details on how to use gopro telemetry, problems etc, the drone guys are on it. They look here for satellite coverage. Maui has excellent coverage. 9 is minimum.
https://www.uavforecast.com/
Here is a page that gopro has on their proprietary telemetry issues.
https://community.gopro.com/t5/GoPro-Telemetry-GPS-overlays/GoPro-GPS-not-working-Performance-stickers-and-telemetry-FAQ/gpm-p/419554#M320
Here is a how I watch my speed with Racerender. I designed the graph to help me learn better downwind strategy - which paths work best etc... Switching to 18Hz from 1Hz was very apparent. What was once smooth became a sawtooth. It looks very accurate to me.
https://youtu.be/SljxayyTNFk
Same graph, Garmin 1Hz signal. Still sorta accurate, but more is always better. I think those drone guys really need good GPS.
https://youtu.be/dRruxRkw5Y4
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LPB, this is why I love the Zone. Other forums have guys guessing and speculating. We get the guy who worked on the original app behind the tech. Amazing and thanks for the explanation.
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Whoops, poor writing on my part.
Dashware was "my old program" is incorrect. I was a user of the old Dashware, not a programmer.
I gleaned that info from the web back when Gopro ruined it.
Ha ha, I'll bet admin got a chuckle out of that one, he knows what a meatball I am. :)
Garmin watches are 1Hz,
Garmin Virb cameras are 10Hz
Gopro is 18Hz
DJI drone stuff is adjustable up to 100Hz (!)
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I've hit 34mph ;)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CE-s_OTjz17/
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Haha, too long in the industry. When someone says “my program” I assume the wrote it lol.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fqaT7LOCvY&t=16s
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Does anyone know how Robby got the speed overlay on the video. Was it from the iWatch or GoPro GPS?
If it is from the iWatch I want to know how he pulled it off.
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Does anyone know how Robby got the speed overlay on the video. Was it from the iWatch or GoPro GPS?
If it is from the iWatch I want to know how he pulled it off.
It was from gopro.
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What is it that holds back speed the most? I assume it's mostly a factor of the power to weight ratio, but what about drag and stability? From watching windfoiling vs wingfoiling, it certainly looks like windfoiling is generally faster, and it looks like it's a speed advantage to have the sail firmly attached to the deck of the board. Has anyone considered something like placing a small "hook" type thing on the nose, deck, or rail of a wing board, and on each tip of the wing a small "loop" that could then be used to hold the wing down to stabilize it and power it up more when blasting along? Then when you want to tack or gibe you just let the loop drop off the hook. Does that make sense how I described it? What would that do to the handling and stability? Thoughts on this crazy idea?
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Drag from the wing and from the foil is what holds the speed back. Our inflatable wings are draggy blimps. Our foils are on the larger end and have a definite speed limit.
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Does anyone know how Robby got the speed overlay on the video. Was it from the iWatch or GoPro GPS?
If it is from the iWatch I want to know how he pulled it off.
When you edit, look for the stickers section and you'll find the speed overlap.
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Wind runner, as was said, it’s not the lack of pull. You can lock in as hard as you want, you don’t need the loop.
But to be clear, the speed is and feels insane. Other than racing someone which I don’t care about, I can’t imagine needing more speed.
When folks here talk about “wanting a faster foil” that’s because the wing can make more speed than the foil will handle which points to the power transfer being just fine.
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Lift increases as the square of velocity, so you need to counter a huge increase in lift with either a lot of front foot pressure, a lot of stabilizer downforce, or an angle of attack that would switch to a JATO liftoff if you accidentally lost it. All that countered lift equals drag, so you hit a speed limit rapidly. In boats that have a wide dynamic speed range they use laddered wings. In the superfast americas cup boats they change AOA. We just use our bodies. It's not enough.
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Current wingfoil equipment creates enough speed for foot steering,transitions,surfing and jumping.
Yes, we are slower than kites or windsurfers...so what?.
Wind driven waves are slow unless gale conditions, wingfoil current speed is "in sync" with these waves This is very good IMHO.
Personally i would prefer to see wingfoils focusing on early lift off, glide,maneuvrability&feel (surfiness).
And the forgotten factor,safety.
Riding on top of 50cm carbon katanas is not exactly smart , rubber flex tips and trailing edges or even better, an infinity wing (closed biplane) foil concept are doable.
I remember the windsurfing "speed fever" craze when Pascal Maka broke the sailing speed record.Lots of needle boards are in landfills or gathering dust in garages.Unridable,unsellable.
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Yup, I did that for a little while. Turns out I had the weight but not the skill. For one shining moment I actually had people giving me gear to use, but then they discovered being fat was not enough.
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Finally got my Locosys GW 60 Doppler speed watch going yesterday here in Rhode Island while testing new Delta foils for George. Had a best 2 second average of 22.90 mph on the 1740 cm2 (110 cm span) wing with a 4m Duo Unit in 25-30+ mph winds and choppy/swelly water. This is a large wing and comparable to my Axis 1150 is size, but a bit smaller. The Delta wing is NOTICABLY FASTER than the Axis 1150. I was really blown away. I don't think my 1150 can go near that quick. Spent the whole weekend testing Delta foils with George periodically getting out of his warm Tesla to swap out wings and stabilizers for me. Must have been the 28-30 degree air temperture? Suprisingly the 1740 Delta wing isn't that much thinner than the Axis 1150. George thinks it's the foil section. Delta will have an all carbon (base plate/strut/fuselage/wings/stabilizers) coming out this spring. I also rode the 1480 cm2 (100 cm span) and was equally impressed but the speed watch somehow turned off so no speed results for that wing. There is also a 1250 cm2 wing. And 3 kite wings. Finally feeling the performance in winging that I've been seeking.
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25.98 knots vmax (29.89 mph)
24.66 knots 100m
24.31 knots 250m
24.12 knots 500m
- Open water conditions (swell/chop) with 5.5m Duo Unit Dlab and ML 600cm2 foil.