Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Phils on June 15, 2020, 02:11:59 AM
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I am pretty comfortable now gybing and foot switching in both directions and want to start working on tacking.
Do people find heelside to toeside easier or the opposite? My preference is to try toeside to heelside first.
Any key tips or videos that really helped?
Thanks
Phil
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I just saw that the latest Blue Planet video with voice over has some good tacking instruction. Robert seems to bring wing overhead before heading up and initiates his turn when wing is directly overhead.
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Toe side to heal side is easier, ride the board flat up wind and push away on the back hand. This will cause the wing to turn up wind and fly over head. Watch the wing and follow it, let go of the back hand also. Pull your hand that is still on the front handle to you and switch hands, this will make pull keeping you on foil. You'll have plenty of time to grab the front handle with the other hand as you're foiling with the board flat. An over powered wing is harder to change sides of the wind window and you don't need to go very fast. Remember you're changing direction so too much momentum makes it harder. Wear a helmet and impact vest if you have one. You'll be body slammed a few times off the back of the board if you get power in the wing before getting past the turn.
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feeble tips from an older klutzy type
- don’t over think (we all do anyway!)
- pick ideal conditions. Flat water, sweet spot of wing power. 4m is a great size to start with if the wind allows
-expect not to finish on the foil in the beginning. Just getting the wing rolled over and regrabbed in the other direction is a great first start, even if you fall after regrabbing. Enjoy the crashes in the meantime (off the back as the wing pulls you back while rolling it is most common)
Robert’s method of releasing and bringing the wing overhead before starting the upwind carve is great because it forces you to carve/redirect the board without any input from the wing. (FWIW I got my first decent jibes by session 5 last fall by releasing the backhand well before I started any downwind carve. Same principle). When you get better you can hold on longer before releasing
- Good smooth and steady upwind carve/pivot. When I got too aggressive on the carve I’d go down fast :P usually catching the new leeward rail.
-I do many of them now a bit overpowered in more chop, and the initial upwind carve is still smooth and steady but I have to finish with a tighter pivot turn just as I regrab to stay up on the foil. With 30 mph winds it’s like sailing into a brick wall! Lighter wind waaay easier.
More tips but then you’ll overthink it even more!
Gear that helps you finish on the foil even in those higher winds: a foil wing that has great top end speed AND low stall speed
Have fun!
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Not sure how much video helps but this is a link to some (very) spazzy first toe to heelside tacks back in Dec. Happy just to sail away upright
https://youtu.be/DcF4WuP2aPk
Here is a more recent Slo mo vid of tacking now.
https://youtu.be/Np32-Fam59I
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Finally gave this a serious try today. 6 attempts, no success but there is a glimmer of hope. I was able to bring board completely around several times but messed up hand switching. On my last try of the day I had my new front hand in place with board turned but my back hand grabbed the middle handle and I couldn’t power up. Fortunately, no crashes onto the foil which is always my biggest fear. I agree that toeside to heelside is the way to start.
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I'm not getting anywhere with tacks either, but my closest attempts were when I visualize bringing the wing over BEHIND my head.
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Finally gave this a serious try today. 6 attempts, no success but there is a glimmer of hope. I was able to bring board completely around several times but messed up hand switching. On my last try of the day I had my new front hand in place with board turned but my back hand grabbed the middle handle and I couldn’t power up. Fortunately, no crashes onto the foil which is always my biggest fear. I agree that toeside to heelside is the way to start.
I'm not getting anywhere with tacks either, but my closest attempts were when I visualize bringing the wing over BEHIND my head.
Curious if you guys are still working on it? What size wing and wind/water conditions are you practicing in? What specific foil? Getting the board around with a regrab attempt is great! My first upright ones were a wobbly dead stop but I could at least get just enough power in the wing to not fall in and eventually pump up onto the new tack. That’s after plenty of falls and not even getting close. I’d always reserve a few tack attempts for each “learning” session even if I wasn’t feeling it. Also the whole parking lot skate board routine helped a lot (with helmet and lots of pads). Keep at it, and don’t give up and just plow the fields!
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Definitely still working on it. Your video above is very helpful and I have watched it more than I care to admit.
I only tried twice yesterday. On a good attempt, I come around fine and get my new front hand in place but sink and fall before my rear hand can repower me. A bad attempt is very ugly.
My best attempts have been on my 1600 (better glide vs 2400) and 4 meter wing. Will try a bunch more when I have those conditions again. I still have this fear of falling onto the foil but none of my crashes have come close.
It all seems to happen so fast I am not sure if I am coming around due to glide and yaw or if my clumsy wing movements are pulling me around some.
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Keep at it, and don’t give up and just plow the fields!
Not going to happen. Mowing is more fun than anyone could expect, but I want it all.
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Definitely still working on it. Your video above is very helpful and I have watched it more than I care to admit.
I only tried twice yesterday. On a good attempt, I come around fine and get my new front hand in place but sink and fall before my rear hand can repower me. A bad attempt is very ugly.
My best attempts have been on my 1600 (better glide vs 2400) and 4 meter wing. Will try a bunch more when I have those conditions again. I still have this fear of falling onto the foil but none of my crashes have come close.
It all seems to happen so fast I am not sure if I am coming around due to glide and yaw or if my clumsy wing movements are pulling me around some.
So in the case where you fall before you can regrab would you say you have the board pointedpast the eye of the wind or not? and are you falling backwards behind the board, or to the side (upwind or downwind).
I know how you feel. Compared to a nice relaxed jibe everything happens way faster and timing is everything. Trying to concentrate on carving upwind and bringing the wing over at the same time, all pretty quickly, is like sensory overload. When I was first learning I was really slow at bringing the wing over, and even pretty slow at carving. If I tried to bring the wing over too quickly (before I had the wing pointed into the wind) it obviously wouldn’t roll. If I tried to carve really aggressively I’d almost always “over lean” and fall to the inside of the turn.
A 4m is a perfect size to work with, so that’s good. For me being just slightly underpowered was better than being over powered but getting those perfect conditions is never easy. One thing that also helps in the beginning, aside from having as much speed as possible at the start of the transition, is to release your back hand before you even start to carve upwind. I think I remember Robert Stehlik at Blue Planet recommending the same thing. This way you aren’t using the wing to help initiate the carve at all (your carve all comes from leg work and the wing is just along for the ride) and you give yourself a wee bit more time to roll the wing over.
Also the carve radius starts out larger buts gets much tighter as you slow down heading into the wind. I know there are pro’s who can maintain a constant radius and speed but for most of us it’s not so perfect.
Anyway good luck! It sure took me a lot of falls to make any progress....
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A few more unsuccessful attempts today. I changed my front hand grip from my usual palm up to a palm down grip prior to tack attempt and it helped quite a bit in bringing wing over. Came very close once but still not able to grab rear handle in time. My board came across the wind and I fell forward. I actually think I can get this. Hopefully before end of month.
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Palm up? I can't do anything palm up. I've tried, it just feels clumsy to me.
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The guy in the yellow wing is good. He does a clean jibe. But the guy in the red wing is one of the best guys who is just incredible to watch. Here, he blasts in max upwind and just feathers the sail behind him and pumped all the way up to right in front of where I took this pic. So there's tacks and then there's super tacks.
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A few more unsuccessful attempts today. I changed my front hand grip from my usual palm up to a palm down grip prior to tack attempt and it helped quite a bit in bringing wing over. Came very close once but still not able to grab rear handle in time. My board came across the wind and I fell forward. I actually think I can get this. Hopefully before end of month.
I couldn’t imagine tacking starting with a front hand underhand grip! No wonder the extra challenge for you.... We Duotone boom wingers get a little advantage for tacking with a wing that will roll easily and a super easy regrab of the new rear hand. When I tacked with my Naish S25 (5.3) everything was way harder for me. But then again I see experienced S25 riders tack like it was nothing, so with skill and familiarity it’s clearly doable.
Even now I struggle tacking from heel to toeside with my big arse 6m Echo. Do it all the time with my 4m, and toe to heel is pretty easy now with any size, so there is always another challenge.
The guy in the yellow wing is good. He does a clean jibe. But the guy in the red wing is one of the best guys who is just incredible to watch. Here, he blasts in max upwind and just feathers the sail behind him and pumped all the way up to right in front of where I took this pic. So there's tacks and then there's super tacks.
Without a doubt! Always gives us something to strive for even if we only make it 1/10th as far :). Had a few old kiteboarding friends who would always talk about the latest super cool tricks the pro riders were pulling off, but when they went to ride it was just back and forth for hours at a time. I always preferred riding with friends who we’re constantly crashing, trying and learning new stuff...... in all its awkward glory. It’s a great motivator.....and more real world for me.
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Here's a video I just put together from my flat water / light wind session yesterday. I included a few unsuccessful tacks in there. I think once I figure out the motion of steering the wing through the eye of the wind I will be in business with more consistency. I often get the wing stuck and it pulls me back to square one.
I think beginners might be able to glean some tips out of the video as well. Especially the pump method I use for really filling the wing with wind and building apparent speed while still on the water. More of an elliptical pump, rather than up/down up/down, which can backwind the wing easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irYzzzDrdec
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Here's a video I just put together from my flat water / light wind session yesterday. I included a few unsuccessful tacks in there. I think once I figure out the motion of steering the wing through the eye of the wind I will be in business with more consistency. I often get the wing stuck and it pulls me back to square one.
I think beginners might be able to glean some tips out of the video as well. Especially the pump method I use for really filling the wing with wind and building apparent speed while still on the water. More of an elliptical pump, rather than up/down up/down, which can backwind the wing easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irYzzzDrdec
Nice attempts! I take it from the video and the front strap your using you’re not a switch stance rider (?). So your forward foot is locked into that one position for every different maneuver you might try?
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Here's a video I just put together from my flat water / light wind session yesterday. I included a few unsuccessful tacks in there. I think once I figure out the motion of steering the wing through the eye of the wind I will be in business with more consistency. I often get the wing stuck and it pulls me back to square one.
I think beginners might be able to glean some tips out of the video as well. Especially the pump method I use for really filling the wing with wind and building apparent speed while still on the water. More of an elliptical pump, rather than up/down up/down, which can backwind the wing easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irYzzzDrdec
Nice attempts! I take it from the video and the front strap your using you’re not a switch stance rider (?). So your forward foot is locked into that one position for every different maneuver you might try?
Correct, strictly surf stance currently. I can go upwind almost as good toeside as I can Heelside. I just adapt more of a slalom snowboard stance going toeside. The vast majority of my sessions are in bumpy water where I’m focused on surfing and carving. I will learn switch stance one of these days though. Only tried it like 5 times so far.
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Finally pulled one off today. Touched down but foiled away. Very happy. Thanks for all the advice. It’s a pretty aggressive move bringing wing to other side. I was too cautious in the beginning.
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Finally pulled one off today. Touched down but foiled away. Very happy. Thanks for all the advice. It’s a pretty aggressive move bringing wing to other side. I was too cautious in the beginning.
Congrats Phils, are you throwing a few board pumps in there during the hand switch? Finding that helpful if I haven't gone in by the time the nose of the board is through the wind. Also find it's pointless for me try much new after the first 45 minutes or so ::)
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Finally pulled one off today. Touched down but foiled away. Very happy. Thanks for all the advice. It’s a pretty aggressive move bringing wing to other side. I was too cautious in the beginning.
cool! My first one was was plop down at zero speed, practically fall off, pump from scratch to get going in the other direction. Yours sounds way smoother ;). On your way..
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Finally pulled one off today. Touched down but foiled away. Very happy. Thanks for all the advice. It’s a pretty aggressive move bringing wing to other side. I was too cautious in the beginning.
Stoked Phils! How awesome is that? I saw you working on these and I thought that they all looked very solid.
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Hi Guys,
I haven't tried any tacks yet but Phils success has me stoked to get started. I envision myself starting toeside first. In this vid (yeah, I have posted it 3 times now) at :29 he looks to be letting go with his back hand first before he starts carving (maybe even going downwind a little) then goes all at once with the carve and the wing push and rests the canopy on his head. Is that expert only stuff? What would you suggest for a first timer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEhfJ0a_t-Q
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It looks like he does the same as me, only more graceful.
I don’t do the rear hand push. I just let go with my back hand. With my front hand I just flip the wing over my head and “forward” of my head. You want it forward, because you are carving forward into the wind. Complete the carve, which takes me 2/3 of the way around. At that point, I have to do the full hand switching quick to avoid the touch down. The front hand switch is normal and you will do that without thinking. Grabbing the rear handle is the weird moment in the whole tack. The boom wins tacking. ;D
https://youtu.be/TAjLZfO1I1k
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Very clear Dwight. I'll try some today if it stays mellow.
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Admin, I saw one of your 360 attempts yesterday and I can tell you that you will get this tack much easier than I did. Breakthrough for me was watching that new Gunnar video, especially the move starting at 2:40. It does look like he starts his carve well after the wing is swung over but I think it just looks that way because he is so smooth. What worked for me was an aggressive one handed wing movement and starting the carve almost at the same time.
In reflecting on my attempts, I now realize that in the beginning my brain could not focus on the wing movement and the board movement at the same time. So focusing on the wing, I really had no idea what my board was doing. After a bunch of attempts, I found I didn't have to focus so intensely on the wing and could actually concentrate more on riding the board through the carve and that's when it started clicking. Now to work on staying on foil.
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In reflecting on my attempts, I now realize that in the beginning my brain could not focus on the wing movement and the board movement at the same time. So focusing on the wing, I really had no idea what my board was doing.
Yeah, me too. I just kinda followed the wing automatically around. Send the wing, torso twists, board follows, you’re around most of the way.....now panic and reach for the handles. Haha
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And just think, you get start all over again doing the not-as-easy heel to toeside tack, and then of course you need to work on continuing both tacks into a continuous 360. Then you’ll have three different 360 options to keep yer brain spinning......
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I found it really helpful to practice tacks on a skateboard or landboard, you don't have to worry about the foil and you can just focus on getting the wing handling dialed in. I can tack heelside to toeside no problem on land but on the water I'm still working on it, I find that the motion can be hard on my shoulder if the wing transition is not smooth. Toeside to heelside tacks are just as easy as jibing for me now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmWSwXBIPCE
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And just think, you get start all over again doing the not-as-easy heel to toeside tack, and then of course you need to work on continuing both tacks into a continuous 360. Then you’ll have three different 360 options to keep yer brain spinning......
...and the Hoss tack...tried one on a swell yesterday and got destroyed. That ending is going to have to happen quick!
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I can tack heelside to toeside no problem on land but on the water I'm still working on it, I find that the motion can be hard on my shoulder if the wing transition is not smooth. Toeside to heelside tacks are just as easy as jibing for me now.
Same here on the on the shoulder irritation especially for the larger size wings. Plus it also is a wee bit harder for me to roll the new Echo’s on these heel-to-toeside tacks. What I’ve been doing is using my release hand to help push the wing over just before I regrab, and it seems to work for my old joints :). Has to be a pretty fast hand/arm motion (release-push-grab). Don’t need to do the push at all on the toe-to-heelside. Like you said, as easy as jibing. When you nail a heel-to-toeside tack on the foil it feels great
https://youtu.be/mJ1Q6GAIEiw
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Nice, I’m going to try that push with the release hand!
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me too!!!
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Gotta love that wing pass.
https://youtu.be/JEqpRwh4l98