Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: surfcowboy on June 04, 2020, 07:55:06 PM
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Ok guys, now it’s my turn to ask some questions. I’ve watched and read everything but a couple of things elude me as I suspect that most everyone moves past this phase quickly so it’s not discussed much. But I’m there so help a brother out before I get out this weekend.
First, this is really a SoCal thing I think as we have few spots near LA that have super mushy waves. So if anyone wants to hip me to another spot with a reform other than Steamroller and hdip’s secret spot in the next county up. Please DM me.
Here goes, I’ll number them so you can reply.
1, if a rider is on a 2000+ cm2 foil (Gong xl for me) is there a point at which you can’t hold the foil in the water on a drop? And, is that point less than say chest high? I ask because it’s terrifying and counter intuitive to just press the nose down when dropping in. If my foil is back in the box a bit and it’s waist high or under, can I survive a drop? Asking because I suspect I should just press down and go for it but it feels. so. wrong. So I want an idea of the limits.
I suspect that, like prone foilers I’ve seen, if the wave is under 3 feet or so your board just sort of comes straight forward off the top of the wave as if it’s falling away from you like a short board take off. But I’d like to know the limits before I launch myself over the nose.
2, must I 100% avoid any sort of hollowness, even at 1-2’? Or can I soon move into those? I’m traveling to the mush burgers with a reform but I’d like to know if it’s 1’ if I can deal with a little dump. Or am I better off going for a bigger day with a rolling high tide wave but no hollowness at all?
3, will I get better at paddling into non breaking waves, or is that just a hassle? I can’t do it at all right now and there’s a million “almost” spots near me. Will those open up as I get my technique down and more my foil forward?
Thanks, it’s fun to be a kook again. (Let’s be honest, it never stopped.)
The reason I ask
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you on prone or SUP?
1. Sounds like you have too much tail downforce. Couple of solutions, reduce the pitch with shims so it isn't pitching up so much, or go with a smaller tail, or go with a shorter fuse. You should absolutely be able to keep the board in the water with just a bit of forward pressure. Generally, yes, you need to suck it up and get used to pressing down on the front foot to make the drop.
2. Assuming SUP, generally, big/fast/hollow takeoffs don't work. The board takes too long to get up to speed to catch them late and usually the wave is standing up too quickly to catch them early. At 1-2ft I think you'd be fine. You really need to go straight down the face until you're up on foil, then do your bottom turn in the flats. You can't take off diagonally like a shortboard and cut across the face, the foil just doesn't work at that angle. It will end very poorly, I've almost landed right on the foil several times trying to nail late takeoffs in hollow surf before I learned my lesson on that one.
3. You should be able to catch non-breaking waves on a sup at many breaks. But a lot of this depends on the speed of the wave. for long period open ocean breaks, it is going to be fairly difficult. The wave is moving too fast for most paddlers. You need at least a little white-water showing to get in. If the wave is wrapping around a point or otherwise getting slowed down before it stands up you can get in early (before even the best longboard paddlers). The technique is to get into surf stance but with your back foot a bit more forward and get some speed before the wave gets to you. On the face, do an aggressive pumping motion with each paddle stroke. You almost unweight and shove the board forward at the same time with your feet. If the board rears up, you have to get on the front foot and it'll shoot off into the wave like a rocket. I've caught waves after they passed under me believe it or not - sometimes you can get up on the foil literally behind the peak on the back of the wave and give it a good pump and jump right over the top into the face of the wave! You'll get better at it is the bottom line
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Thx man, starting on SUP.
And yes, waves not really hollow but breaking. I’ve seen prone guys shoot straight out of a breaking wave is why I asked.
And know that I’m not breaching, I’m just getting started but asking if it really is just putting the nose down and going with it. I suspect it is. My goal this weekend (if it’s not too big, if so I’ll prone surf) is to just push myself into a few dozen waves and press the front foot down.
Angled take offs are for sure sketchy. My only taco/jackknife was from that. (I bailed early and jumped far away.)
Thanks for the tips on the non breaking waves. I watched Blue Zone camp’s YouTube video but that guy is a paddle monster so I wondered if that was even a thing normal humans did lol. I figured that it’ll take a bit since I haven’t paddled really seriously in a couple of years.
Thx! Just time on water. But the Zone has saved me so much pain and time I wanted to hear what folks said.
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1: Your foil size is fine for your SUP. You can ride it in anything under waist high at this beginning level. Even 2 years in, over chest high waves are scary to paddle into, or just downright terrifying depending on the spot.
2: Yes, you must avoid any sort of hollowness. I'll explain more below. You can foil high tide zuma. But it better be super flat. I'm talking 1 foot sets at most. The problem then is you drag your mast on the bottom. It's really not worth it though.
3: You will get better at paddling into non-breaking waves. But not for awhile. I'm on a 4'8" prone, but surfing an outer reef I can catch waves that SUP guys miss. I do need a tiny push of white water though so I can transition to my feet. On a SUP you'll be able to use your paddle to get that tiny bit of push. It's not going to be easy or come super quickly though.
OK, now to talk about hollowness and dropping in. Foils are super easy to ride ... on flat water. That's why people say learn behind a boat. It's the curve of the wave that makes them react crazy. Eventually you will learn what it's going to do, but right now when you're learning, every surf instinct you've ingrained is wrong. Steep drop on a surfboard, stomp on the tail so you don't pearl. Steep drop on a foil, stomp on the nose so that when you go from 0-100 MPH and the foil tries to jump out of the water you can handle it.
You're not trying to match the board to the wave face, You're trying to match the front wing, which is 2 feet below you, to the wave face. So when you're dropping into a steep wave and you keep your board relatively level, the wing is just going to go on a level plane and come right out of the water. You have to make the wing angle down to match the wave face. Trying to drop into a hollow wave you have to lean forward like you're dropping into a vert ramp.
First 5 sessions you're just learning how to fall safely. Make sure you have a nice clear runway with no one in your way so you can concentrate on yourself.
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1, if a rider is on a 2000+ cm2 foil (Gong xl for me) is there a point at which you can’t hold the foil in the water on a drop?
Yes, 2000 is my less than waist high size wing. A faster smaller front wing is easier when waves are bigger, or steeper.
2, must I 100% avoid any sort of hollowness, even at 1-2’?
Yes, the front wing will bust out of the wave face and the crash hurts the most of all crashes. With a little more skill you can nose dive, skip off the water out front of the wave and pop back into the air and get a decent ride.
3, will I get better at paddling into non breaking waves, or is that just a hassle?
Not for a long time. You need to be able to pump the board really well while paddling.
My answers apply to beginners, not everyone.
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Guys, amazing info.
And this is what I suspected, especially the part about anything hollow. Luckily I have a few super mushy spots to hit.
I think something that’s key to mention is watching the waves. For example at two spots, with the same size waves, say 2’ so it’s just over what your mast would cover for this discussion, one hollow and one mushy. If I’m reading this right, they both “feel” crazy to push the nose down on but one (mushy) is makeable and the other (hollow, even at that size) will dump you as a beginner.
The reason I mentioned watching is that the other day I was on a perfect wave, but as hdip mentioned, at best I would hold the board level which would send the foil out of the front of the wave. I get it now. Pick the right wave. Observe for a while from the beach and get into your mind “this is doable” and then go commit.
I’ll probably start playing with my prone board in a couple of weeks. It’s almost done, built second by design to make me do some SUP foil sessions.
I’ll keep an eye out this weekend to see if it’s too big, which now, hilariously is over 2’ face lol. Might be doing some good ol’ surfing. I get why you guys laugh about being bummed when it’s firing. While it’ll be fun, I’ll be surrounded by people whereas I could foil 1-2 alone.
Next step, take straight drops on small mushy reforms til I’m stable. Got it.
I’ll try to label these threads intelligently as I learn so people can find them and use the info. Your questions evolve as you encounter waves and situations.
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Ok, better.
Day two (Or 3, but I’m not counting my day just paddling around before covid. Sue me)
Much better, paddle skills overall coming back and less weird spastic dancing on the 6’4” board. But I do understand now why extra volume at rear on a SUP is important. Not sure learning on a converted SUP is recommended at all, at least by me. My next board will have an extra inch of thickness at the tail so I can stand on the mast paddling in. I can get my foot comfortably right to the front of the mast so it’s easy to slide back. I’ll bet I get better at paddling in surf stance as well. And my current board will make a great beginner wing ding board when I’m ready. Might install a centerboard/giant fin for my mother in law to learn on actually.
My bump cap and impact vest, whether they help or not, give confidence. The vest for sure has made those serious “slap falls” which sting and take your breath, easier and less intimidating. Everything is a mind game, right?
It was too big again, argh, and I wish I’d waited but today’s schedule was full so I went and accepted that I’d just mostly paddle again. Patience is my mantra, and it seems to be paying off.
I caught one wave. However, I caught it in the right stance, with my head up looking at where I wanted to go (huge) and my weight perfectly aligned on center (the arch bar is also a serious recommendation, more so than a kick tail I believe now though they come together in most rigs). I was probably a little too far forward but that was recommended as well.
I caught the wave, took off, flew straight for maybe 4-5 seconds and touched down without a wipeout. I credit this 100% to all of you who suffered in 2017-2018 and shared your knowledge. Hdip was in my head, “forward!” lol
As you all said, I was able to control the foil perfectly coming down a thigh high wave. If I can find more knee high with a little whitewater I know I can sort this sport out in time.
I’ll be doing 1 or 2 sessions per week, so I assume a couple of months to get comfortable but I’m started.
I def need to go stand in the lineup next to Steamroller and get some tips live, if he can give up cranking those crazy turns on bigger waves and come paddle with a mortal again.
If any of you see a guy on a blue no-name board in LA or Ventura county who looks like he’s breakdancing on his board, say hi and offer any tips at all.
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Don't listen to Steamroller--he's too good at foiling. He'll have you pumping flatwater takeoffs before you can surf.
I take off in whitewater all the time, if it's mushy it's the easiest way to get going. You need to brace well and stay low--the reason whitewater works well for beginners is that it pushes the board and foil harder than an unbroken wave.
If you find yourself consistently falling to one side that tells you that you are not rotating your shoulders enough to face forward. All surfers tend to ride sideways. Doesn't work. You have to consciously rotate at the hips to face forward--overdo it and it's barely enough.
Take about ten waves where you pick the board up onto the foil and immediately put it back down. Keep doing that until you feel you have good pitch control.
The problem with waiting to get up and turn until you are on the flats is that there isn't any power down there. The board will stop and the wave will catch up and toss you off. As soon as you start getting some control and can reliably lift the board you need to turn across the face of the wave. Stay in the middle of the wave generally, but try running up to the top and back to the bottom to see what it's like. Most likely when you go to the top you'll pop out the back. There's plenty of power there, even on the back of the wave, but initially your angle as you reach the top will be too extreme. You need to anticipate reaching the top and start to turn back. If you wait until you get there it will be too late. Just like ripping the top off a wave on a SUP. You can get away with being late on a shortboard, but with a SUP most people lose the wave trying to knock the top off.
Dropping to the bottom generally imparts a lot of acceleration that might spook you at first. A committed bottom turn gets you to mach 5 in a hurry. The easiest way I've found to get a good cutback or even just a bottom turn is to start very high and anticpate the heck out of your turns. I learned to cutback from a suggestion Dave K. gave me--he said go over the top while you're turning to gain more space. That puts you starting down the face more or less heading straight down the wave and makes the second half of the turn a lot easier. Kind of like a farmer turn.
Enjoy. The first bits are all about time on the water, but once you're up and flying some you need a plan to work on faults. If you practice mistakes you'll get good at them. I had a horrible time learning to pump across the face because I focused all my early learning on ways to surf without pumping. I fall back into my sleazy ways too easily.
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Thank you, there is gold in this now that I’m entering the touch and go landing phase.
I’ve seen foilers foiling down the line behind the peak and it’s wild to see. I’ll get a couple more sessions this week (damn these big perfect waves!) but I can see the time factor. But as you said, it’s fun learning.
I will say that if you are a serious downhill snowboarder who likes to carve and go fast your stance works. We tend to face more forward and so this feels natural. And like snowboarding that acceleration is intimidating.
I’m working on pumping to get off the water right now. With these bigger swells I’m having to go out at high tide and catch the in between waves which are soft. Probably good practice and man am I getting a workout. My heart rate has likely never been higher than paddling for a wave on a short SUP.
But patience, if I’d had more when I was younger there’s no telling where I’d be. But it’s good I didn’t, this is pretty damn good right here.
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Session 3, got 3 waves. I’m 100% happy with that.
No serious crashes just a couple of bails off the back. I feel like I’ve still not found the right size waves but also I think I had my foil set up a bit too forward.
After struggling with smaller waves the other day, today was a bit smaller so I moved my foil up an inch. I think that affected me, but also I’m pretty sure my front foot is too far back as well. Even with all my weight forward (at least it feels that way) I couldn’t keep the foil in the water. So next session, foil back where it was. My paddling is improving so I should be able to get into a knee high wave now.
Speaking of that, 3 sessions back and I can paddle with my feet right next to the arch bar so I can slide right to the center line. Fitness is coming back and I can half ass cross stroke to go sort of straight. So far, when I take off, I’m facing forward, head up and seem to fly straight (but I’m also not getting more than 3 second ride lol.) So now I think it’s just me getting far enough forward to keep the nose down. These things can lift. Wow.
I feel like I’m progressing a little each time. That’s all I aim for.
Oh, and getting in through the shorebreak I had the board upside down with the foil near me, holding the tail walking it in to shore. As a wave broke I pulled the tail down and the board bucked and could have nailed me with the tail. I’ll be more careful but I’m really not clear on how to get in with a paddle and everything. When it’s still over say thigh deep you can swim it in but flipping it and getting it into the shore is still a little sketchy. Again, just time and repetition I’m sure.
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Moving the foil an inch forward is huge. Try 1/4 inch increments.
I hold my board under my arm foil away from me entering and exiting through waves. Might be harder with a sup.
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Thx man. And yeah, this prone board looks better and better lol.
Good day at the spot. I’m getting there.
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Ok, so working on form on dry land before the weekend.
My plan is to move the foil back a bit and waves will be smaller so I should be able to keep nose down.
One note for other beginners, in my eagerness to fly I forgot the idea of taking the drop with the foil down. So I think my strategy is to work on catching waves and just taking the drop. If I can take off at the bottom, great. But overall I really want to get the feel of the mellow take off. This is just a reminder to myself.
One question, when or if I do get in the air and feel myself getting too high, should I fight the idea to bail and instead go heavy on the front foot? I know no one can speak to this but I guess I’m not sure yet that the nose will come down. Is this just a feeling that I should fight (note that I’ve yet to breach) or is there a point of no return when you are coming up?
I’ll use my own discretion but asking if this is a common feeling.
Also, I signed up for Clay’s “How to Foil” video course and it’s well worth it. I’m learning a lot. Well done for getting that out there man.
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Others may have a different opinion than me. But I say bail early, bail often. If you’re in control and getting high that’s fine. But if you’re getting off center get out. Nothing wrong with breaching btw. It’s a safe-ish way to fall. It’s just annoying.
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Also, I signed up for Clay’s “How to Foil” video course and it’s well worth it. I’m learning a lot. Well done for getting that out there man.
Sweet! Thanks for the feedback, I'm super stoked to hear you are learning a lot. Means a lot to me.
In regards to the drop, I say go with your gut feeling.
For me I bail when the wave starts to turn inside out, pitching from the top and I know I'm going to get hucked over the falls. In regards to Letting the board come up on foil at the bottom of the wave, usually I have some board speed at this point and as soon as I let the board come up the slightest bit it will rocket up very fast, so I prepare myself to have a heavy front foot to keep the foil in the water.
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One question, when or if I do get in the air and feel myself getting too high, should I fight the idea to bail and instead go heavy on the front foot?
The way to think about it is not to put "weight" on the front foot but to shift your center of gravity forward, or back, as necessary. Keep your upper body centered over your hips, and move your core fore and aft parallel to the deck. Otherwise a teeter totter oscillation starts and you either breech and go over the handlebars, or wheelie out the back and never catch the wave.
Hope that helps.
Come down to SanO, its a perfect spot to learn. It rarely if ever gets hollow, catching whitewater is always good because it reforms in the middle into fun waves again, and when your dial up the confidence, Nukes can get big and juicy with 3 to 400 yard to yard rides.
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Thanks Clay, thanks Dan,
As to "bail" I do hear you. But I'm figuring right now my gut is scared lol. So I'll keep an eye on that. I was in the wrong waves for sure, still just over knee high so I'm either not catching the small ones, or getting the push to fly from a thigh high wave and the nose goes up. I think I need to get on the nose a bit more. (Watching that video tonight.) and I'll bet as I can paddle more, I'll get into softer waves.
Dan, yes, I should say that I've practiced the forward facing form and the hip move (fore and aft) on land for a bit. So that's what I mean, but good to call out for others reading this.
And you know, I've been driving up to Ventura and as you mention it, San O is probably another half hour so I really should go down there. I'm always skittish about the wait to get in but probably worth it. This weekend is pretty small but if I get skunked by size I'll head down there as I'll bet the reform on the inside is decent even on a waist high day.
What's the wait like these days on weekends if you're there mid am?
And to the rest of you, I'd like your take on my fear of heights. If I'm not catching the knee high waves (meaning my foil is back in the box) am I likely to be able to get the nose back down as long as I've not breached? I think I'm asking about that more than anything. And in the end, I gotta get my money's worth out of that impact vest sometime...
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You definitely want to have your weight forward--meaning your hips thrust forward, not bending at the waist. Head up, square your shoulders to the front of the board. Push your hips forward as you paddle for the wave. Keep you weight forward as you catch the wave. Once the board is moving and well caught in the wave, lift your front foot without shifting your weight back. You'll only be able to do that for a second, your weight will automatically come back on the front foot, but lifting your foot will pop the foil and then it will come back down again. Do that several times with each wave.
Once you are comfortable that you can come up and get back down, pop up and shift your weight back a little, as if you were starting to sit down. You'll fly a little ways. Keep your knees bent, torso rotated, shoulders forward. You can start extending the ride, keeping the foil up.
At this point you'll be running out of the wave and plopping down. The next step is turning so you can stay in the wave.
Keep u posted on how your'e doing. Yeah, wear the vest.
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What's the wait like these days on weekends if you're there mid am?
There will be 30 cars in line by mid morning on the weekend. Gotta be in line by 5:30 to get a good parking spot at Dog Patch. Mid week is pretty much ok anytime unless there's swell on and then it gets nuts again. We've all taken the ebike route: Park at trail 1 and ride in like you own the place. Biking in has taken all the stress out of what had turned into a pretty stressful event. Too many times I have turned around and gone home angry due to 30 cars lined up covered in wavestorms and beat down longboards that were pulled out of the garage rafters for the latest swell.
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Dan, thanks for the 411. Gotta get a rack on my bike. I’ve been an e-skate guy but that’s not a cargo hauler lol.
Pono, the weight front, squared up is how I’ve been doing it, but you just gave me a great tip. I’ve been stuck with missing the waves or not taking off by being nicely forward, or launching to the sky by trying to break it loose. That little “try to lift” seems like the way to find middle ground.
Also, from watching videos and comparing feelings I’ve seen that while I’ve had my weight forward, when I start trying to take off I’m likely not getting back to that forward weight. It’s tricky, you can bend your knees and not be forward which fools you.
One interesting behavior I picked up learning to prone surf is “head up” so I am doing that. SUP allowed me and sometimes required me to watch my nose. That bad habit doesn’t work prone surfing, so 2 years on a longboard got my head right so to speak. I credit that with making these early flights and touch and go’s way better as I’m squared up and ready instead of all doubled over watching the nose. Big one there for any guys coming straight from SUP surfing. Foiling form is as critical as a shortboard. Don’t bring your bad habits.
I’ll keep this updated as I’m using it as my journal. When I get straight catch and takeoff dialed and move to turns I’ll start a new thread. This is my gift to the old guys (for comedy) the new guys, (for learning) and the admin (for views lol.)
Thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming.
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"cowboy", let me know if/when you're heading down to Sano, and since the doc says I'm going to be sidelined for a few more weeks (the bastard... >:( :D), I'll come down and shoot some video of you out there...if you've not seen yourself, and what you're doing already.
You'll be surprised on what you "think" you're doing, is really so much different from what you're actually doing on the board and wing. At least it was an eye-opener for myself the first time I saw footage, but also a great help in putting "feel" into the "reality", and I gotta say it did help quite a lot in my foil learning process.
Anytime, I'm only 15 minutes away...and I really need a good excuse to tell the wife in order to get her to unshackle me from house arrest, and let me out of her sight finally. ;)
Hope to see you soon...no seriously....the sooner the better.....pleeeeeeeeease get me out of here!! ;D
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Amazing slatch, I’ll do it. I might need to sneak down on a weekday afternoon for an evening session or take a day off. I actually love filming too, a buddy bought a nice housing and we take turns filming from the water. I’ll wait a while before I foil near him (ya think?)
But I agree, it’s hard to put the muscle memory together and also I’m 100% sure that I have zero ability to judge height. What a weird sport when you say that, right?
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4th session. Swell about right, but tide too high and crowd too thick, so couldn’t get to the best take off. That said, I paddled out and practiced to get that muscle memory.
Paddling the short, finless foil SUP is now easy and I can usually get myself to the right takeoff in the right angle. Still blow a few due to being pointed too far down the line (over paddling, not enough hook stroke.) But 4 sessions got me back in shape and to the takeoff.
I only really caught one wave but it was a good one. Thigh to waist high, mushy, and I just put my hips forward and hung on lol. The nose went down and I rode away from the drop. I’m still at the “oh, s&it I'm foiling!) stage so I think I was a little heel side and so when I got out in front of the wave I was leaning over a bit and so I laid it down safely. Now, to just do this 50 more times.
In a fun surprise Hdip was there and while we didn’t get to meet, he messaged me after that he saw me. The Zone is pretty awesome that way. I’ve literally met people all over the world on here and anytime we get to connect in person in the surf it’s been great. (Need a SoCal Zoner meetup again soon. Now that Battle of the Paddle is gone we need to DIY it.)
Changes? I listened to you guys and used your tips. Watched Clay’s vids (unaffiliated, just reporting what I did) and moved my foil back an inch as Hdip suggested. (To where it was in the first place lol) speaking to that. In a 10” Chinook box its 1” back from the balance point as designated by KD Maui (Kane DeWild). That seems to allow me to take off but still hold it down.
I’m about to start myself a little diy project making myself a safer torx key to carry in my wetsuit today for playing around. I’ll post up on that for sure.
Now, as Hdip said, I just need a day or two with a peak to myself to run laps and do touch and go’s.
I’ll probably do 2 or 3 more sessions on the short (45cm) mast and then I’ll move up. Also going to try to get one more boat session to play with altitude more.
But that’s the journal so far. 4 sessions to a clean (ish) flight. Now to rinse and repeat til it doesn’t feel like a fluke. But I can’t say enough how much the tips from Zoners and you guys sharing your progression has helped shorten the learning curve. I literally owe you all a meal lol. The fact that some of you got figured this out early and in some cases alone blows my mind.
To those considering it, I can say this at this stage. It’s not that easy, but it’s not impossibly hard either. You can learn to do this if you surf. However, patience is probably the biggest skill you need. Followed by an ability to humble yourself and be a beginner again. Walking out of the water on a busy beach knowing everyone has seen you look it for 2 hours is a spiritual lesson lol. But what’s great is that every foiler is supportive and understands. But I personally believe that it’s good for us all to lose our “cool status” every so often. It’s always led me to growth and fun. Going from a good SUP surfer to a horrible longboarder was educational. Same for moving from LB to shorter boards and now this.
Oh one thing on other foilers you meet! Every foiler you meet at a spot when you say you’re new probably thinks this first. “Please dude, don’t be an idiot and ruin my spot.” So some may be stand-offish. I experienced this with a guy. Once he heard me say, “I’m looking for a spot to learn off out of the way” Then when he saw me do that twice he came over after my session and offered some kind words and tips. I’m glad I didn’t overthink his stand-offishness.
Can’t wait to get a few more sessions under my belt.
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And once again, Hdip is right. I went out late afternoon today and paddled around til everyone left and the tide got right. He said, “if you get a session with a peak to your own you will dial it and that’s exactly what happened.
Turns out it takes me 5 sessions to get to where I can take off and fly straight. It was perfect knee/thigh high just at the edge of breaking and I went for it on every wave. With my foil set up right I was able to keep the nose down and once I even pushed the nose into the water. After that, a small correction and I set my hips back a bit at the bottom and rode it out. I even started some feeble pumps as the wave died out. I got maybe 6 waves in a row and only bailed on 2. The rest I rode til I came off foil and paddled straight back out and got another. The right conditions, gear set up right, and some patience getting my balance and paddling muscles back and I was off.
I’m pretty sure I’m still dragging my tail a good bit with this 45 cm beginner mast but I’m gonna keep on it for a few more sessions. I need to find the limits of it and breaching at 18” on a slow wave won’t be that bad if/when I do. I’ll move up when I feel like it’s holding me back. Gong XL wing lifts great and is so stable I almost don’t believe it. Once I locked my feet on the arch bar and squared my shoulders I flew straight as an arrow.
It. Feels. Amazing. Anyone wanna buy some surfboards? Another one bites the dust.
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Stoked for you! Keep the short mast until you feel it’s holding you back. Do you want to fall from this high? Or this high? 😀
I think sessions 4-6 were good for me. Then 7-9 sucked! Trying to force it in the wrong conditions probably. After ten sessions the learning curve speeds way up.
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Thx man. And yes, I can actually see that. Also, I’m sure before long I’ll start to try to turn and I’m sure that will bring some hilarious crashes. But I’m taking it slow.
I’ve been bringing my wavestorm so if it’s just a no-go, I can get in the water without pushing it. As much fun as it was I can totally see how bad conditions keep you from doing well.
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Session 6 was my first mixing into a crowd. Still cautious but was under 50 feet now lol. I’m continuing to be patient with my sessions, balancing when I can get out with the conditions and crowd size so I only got a couple of rides. But.
I can report that my apprehension catching a wave is gone. I’m now just stoked to maybe fly. Also, wind and chop were insane but I still was able to stand and paddle into position. You can totally learn to paddle a 6’ SUP with no fins in a halfway straight line btw.
I’m now able to hop/paddle and feel the board rise. I wasn’t able to pump onto a wave yet but I feel that that’s coming in a few sessions, which will be necessary for downwind runs I’m sure.
That said, when beginning it’s nice to have that perfect peaking wave that never closes out or breaks (a knee high reform.) That’s really the beginner take off you need, that or even one with a tiny whitewater. Can’t stress that enough. If you surf the gulf or FL and aren’t foiling you are missing a huge opportunity. I’m literally planning a Texas surf trip as soon as it’s safe. Until now that was a rare sentence in the English language, right up there with “is that the banjo players Porsche outside?”
Also had friends at the beach who’ve never been around a foil so we spent some time playing in the shallows pushing the board and watching it fly. A few observations that are obvious to foilers but surprising to noobs.
First, I’ve noticed and my friends confirmed from prone paddling the SUP that the lift even at that speed makes the board feel lighter and paddle way faster. Prone paddling with my friends who are on 9’ longboards I kept up and even passed them at times. I can totally see how people surf really short prone boards now. Can’t wait to get mine out and paddle it a bit. (It’s water tight and has traction as of today!
Then there’s the crazy sail effect in wind and current. If you lose your leash in a wind or current and are more than 10’ away, you may not catch that board by swimming. They can haul ass alone.
I encourage any of you learning to just spend some time pushing your boards around in the shallows watching what it does. It’s highly educational.
Not sure if I’ll get out today, but the holiday weekend will provide some evening and early am sessions where I can get some quality flight time I’m sure. Also I’m going to start looking for a spot to practice dock starts. Hdip, if I find anything fun I’ll hit you up and we can film each other’s crash reels.
Hopefully I’ll start a thread on turning soon lol. But I’ll keep this going as a way for everyone to share tips.
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If you're going to work on dock starts, definitely use the prone - lighter makes a huge difference. tactile foot placement blocks will really help you too, because getting your feet right is key.
As far as foil surfing closer to other people - it is totally doable, you can even be right in the pack where everyone is taking off. the key is that you need to pick a wave nobody else picks, and most importantly - be sure that you have a big swath of space between you and the beach with absolutely nobody in it. I think of it as the cone of emptiness - I look for about 45deg angle wide area at least 100yds in front of me where nobody is sitting, paddling, or swimming. This seems super limiting, but once you realize that you can catch just about any wave coming through - you just wait for everyone to clear the zone and paddle for the next shitty wave that nobody else wants.
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A decent leash is pretty important for foil surfing. I've seen loose boards at Ka'a get up on foil and travel ridiculous distances in a few seconds. I've only had my board get away from me with a wing (twice). The first time I didn't realize how fast I could go body dragging with a wing. By the time I did, it was easier to run down the bank and intercept it. Headmount is snickering reading this--my version of running is like my version of pumping: The only person who can tell I'm doing it is me.
The second time was in the middle of the channel in the Columbia and if I hadn't been able to body drag it would have been gone, gone, gone. It was happily headed to Cascade Locks at a good clip. I caught it after a few hundred yards of chasing.
Bottom line, a good leash is necessary--a stout one for foil surfing since the leash tug in even a waist-high wave can be substantial. Wingfoiling I've been using one of the skinny fabric-covered FCS leashes. I might revisit that. In both cases, a waist leash is a good idea, for keeping the leash out of the water and to give you control over whether or not you still want to remain attached. I haven't been using mine for wingfoiling, which is stupid, but I still have that "rush to get into the water" affliction, and it might take ten seconds to find it and wear it.
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Def considering a combo weight belt waist leash as I hate single use gear lol.
I’m using a 6’ shortboard leash and it tangles a little. With my bird legs I wear it as a calf leash and that helps.
And yes, I basically sit on a spot til all the wavestorms take the set wave at once and then ride the cleared space.
And yes, for dock starts I’m only going prone. Can’t imagine trying to handle my SUP. I have perfect arch bars on center. But might bring some stick on pads to help place my front foot fore and aft.
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Hdip, you jinxed me with you “sessions 7-10 were frustrating for me” comment lol. Session 7 and too much tide and too much swell as the only waves that would push me were over waist high. But you all know the deal, I was trying to push in a session between locked down over the weekend. I’ll get more waves next time.
I really see the conditions that work now and also have a good idea on how the foil setup can be adapted for larger waves to a point. I can also feel when you just can’t stop the lift now. So I feel like my bail radar is coming. I know another boat session will help my altitude radar too.
In good news, I have recovered all my SUP in chop skills. It was windy with a wicked side backwash at the spot (North LA & Ventura guys know what I’m talking about.) It wasn’t fun but it was good practice. I am pretty sure I’d have had a better session on a prone board so next week I’ll likely take both boards and practice a bit with the prone rig too.
I caught two waves. One was just too much for me and I was headed for a breach so I bailed at the top of the wave and mast. My friend on a longboard said, “you were so high and then I saw both wings” lol I explained that that is not the correct technique.
Second one I learned more about archbars and foot placement. I caught a perfect wave and made the drop and did a dive bomb turn to the right at speed (the speed really is nuts... and fun!) when I thought about it I remembered my front foot being literally 2 inches off center to that direction. Wild.
I also laughed remembering PonoBill describing catching a wave and going down the line screaming. I get it now.
More progress, more practice. Overall I want to point out to other newbies that conditions matter way more in the beginning than what we’ve been led to believe. Really, learning in Hawaii or somewhere like that (SanO)is a great idea as you can do laps. As soon as this lockdown ends I’ll be headed to one of the islands to get a week of double sessions under my belt.
I can see how, if you had the cash, buying a rig from Blue Planet or a Maui shop and doing a week would get you a long way down the road. I’m planning a local trip to San Diego soon so I can just run 2 a days at a mushy spot. (I live an hour from the beach currently.)
In the plus column, I got to surf with friends at a beautiful spot. The moon came up and I ran down my current business plan with a friend while we watched waves crashing reflecting the moonlight not a bad end to a workday. I’m healthy, happy, and am taking my time staying safe for myself and others.
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HAH! I have a new Axis setup being delivered today just in time for the lockdown. So you can expect the next 2 weeks to be flat. IE: perfect foil conditions. You're welcome. Or does that only happen when you buy a high performance surfboard?
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Oh man, congratulations. Can’t wait to see that up close. Post in the Axis thread what you got and a review.
I finished that prone board this am. I’ll try to get the build thread up while I’m stuck.
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Session 8 yesterday started to look sketchy but turned out great.
Finally met Hdip and his awesome water kids who were killing it in the shore break. I expect them to pass us surfing in 6 months lol.
Conditions are everything. Remind me of that. Luckily I had my awesome wife with me and so I got to just chill and wait it out. I was rewarded.
At 6pm swell was 1-2’ wind was probably 10-12 (no real idea lol) side/onshore. Chop was insane. Paddled out and after 5 min came back in. Waited 30 min and went out (still 30 min too soon.) but at 7 the wind dropped and kept dropping til dark (8:30 or so)
At 7:15 the crowd died with the sun and wind and I was left with the exact same conditions as my last solid session. 1-2 mushy but a small peak that backs off so you get pushed in. I caught everything I went for and got maybe 5 waves in 30 min.
Interesting observation from me and my wife. I felt like I was flying the foil but she said, “I couldn’t really see when you took off”. I chalked it up to my short (45cm) mast. But then I thought about the feeling and sound and looked at the surfline replay and realized that my tail was in the wave but the front 75% of the board was “flying”. This is a great way to safely learn and I remember you guys saying, “you can feel the wing before you take off.” I could tell by sound and feel the few times I fully lifted off. This also is going to be key for learning to prone foil and I feel much better about that now knowing I can half fly on this mast.
Now that I know these conditions and crowd level I will hit this spot after work a few times and get some miles in before going to larger mast (65cm.)
Technique Tip: The archbar front and back continues to make or break waves. Now that I am careful to get my feet on the center every time it’s as if the foil is on tracks. I suspect this is what made the whole “strapped” thing such a big deal back a while ago. Foot Position is key. But my experience is that you can replicate that with an arch bar and if your wing is balanced right the front/back takes care of itself if your stance is consistent.
I’m also going to bring my prone board to practice paddling in when the chop is too bad for SUP. Starting to see how Prone, SUP, and Wing fit into conditions. Here’s my early take based on limited experience. But I think I see why SUP foil surfing isn’t as dominant as it was.
Too much wind, Wing. Duh.
A bit of chop, prone
Close to shore, short paddle, prone
Clean but long paddle, SUP
Clean and long session, SUP
I’m sure this will change for me but at my level of fitness I can get longer sessions on a SUP just due to the larger muscles used. Socially, I’ll probably prone more too just to sit and hang with my buddies on crappy longboard days and fit in better should we get an uncrowded session. (At least until they all give in to the dark side.)
Summary, 8 sessions, which for a weekender is 4-8 weeks, and I’m having fun now. Still just getting wings but the early frustrations are easing as long as I watch conditions and am patient.
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But I think I see why SUP foil surfing isn’t as dominant as it was.
Summary, 8 sessions, which for a weekender is 4-8 weeks, and I’m having fun now. Still just getting wings but the early frustrations are easing as long as I watch conditions and am patient.
First sentence is true because a lot of the early "tryers" didn't expect the bold would last as long as it does for the most part, and throw in the towel before the "easing" part arrives. Not to mention that most of the SUP foiler tend to be of the "older" crowd...who were/are well past their "proner foil", short board popup days.
Well I know of at least one guy who fits that description, and that would have loved to have had this foil craze stuff come out when he was still prone surfing anything...but those days are way, way back in the rearview mirror by now. :-[:(
Good to hear you're having fun, and sticking with it cowboy, that's really all there is to it, and you're approaching that "aha" moment when suddenly one day it'll all click, and you'll look back at these days wondering..."geez, why did I think this was that hard to do?" :D
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Sano, I feel you. Notice that I expect that I'll prefer SUP for longer sessions. That trend will continue should I get lucky enough to last a few more decades. In clean conditions I'll bet I can get down to the low 5' range and maybe 25" (26?) wide in clean conditions.
I agree too that the sport likely lost a lot of potential SUP foilers early on to learning curve. As I say over and over, I can't imagine learning this on a Kai Foil in 2017. It's so much easier now, I'm sure. But please don't tell anyone. I don't want to blow up the spots that I'm scoping up here. Me, Hdip, and Steamroller are enough crowd for LA County.
I still think that SUP foil is preferable for certain spots. Seems like anywhere you are getting long rides you'd want the paddle. While I like the freedom of the small board, take heart that really, paddling prone 100 yards+ over and over is not going to be fun for even the most fit of us.
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I still think that SUP foil is preferable for certain spots. Seems like anywhere you are getting long rides you'd want the paddle. While I like the freedom of the small board, take heart that really, paddling prone 100 yards+ over and over is not going to be fun for even the most fit of us.
That's the thing with the prone foilers...they don't paddle 100+ yards but once on the paddle out...they pump back out to wherever it is they're going, and doing it a couple times before finally running out of gas, and letting the board settle back down into the water next to the rest of their buddies in the lineup.
I applaud them...only wish I still had the skills and stamina to do the same. But as Clint once said, "A man's got to know his limitations", and I definitely know mine. ;) ;D
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Patience, wanted to post about this for other beginners. While I’m frothing this weekend the tides and conditions don’t match up with my spot so I’m taking a week off. It’s killing me but I’m just not in the place to go in sub-par conditions yet.
Minor vent so that I can read it later and laugh or confirm it. I’m frustrated by the lack of suitable beginner conditions near me. My fear is that I won’t have enough spots I can foil SUP regularly and that I won’t adapt to prone foiling and be stuck with a favorite pastime that I’m even more constrained by. I know fears mostly aren’t real but I’m trying to post up my whole journey here.
As far as prone goes, SanO is right, people have limits. I’m not a strong prone surfer and don’t surf anything under 7’ so not sure if I’ll ever have the consistent time on water to move down, though I remain positive and am going to train as best I can to do this while I might physically still have the chops. Again, the mental game, try for the best you can, but be grateful for whatever you get. This lesson is hard for many of us to learn.
I’m hoping that smaller wings and the experience to handle higher speeds (so much speed!) will get me to where I can ride junky waist high waves, of which we have a ton lol. Anyway, wanted to post this as it’s part of learning. It’s a mind game as much as physical.
I also think I need some foilSUP role models as I think Steamroller might be the only guy other than Laird within like 50 miles of me lol.
For the guys complaining about gear being expensive, access to the best foil spot in LA County starts at about $4MM+ for a key. lol (Hdip, no guilt, I’m sure I know someone too, just haven’t bothered to check.) Still think this sport is going to lead me to an inflatable dinghy and outboard... or Costa Rica.
Anyway, I get to surf a couple of the best longboard spots in the world today if I want. Remember gratitude always. That is the thought for today.
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Oh, and watching good SUPfoilers on YouTube helps remind you of what’s possible once you put in the time.
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Session 9 - again, my beginner spot, end of the day, on the right tide and waiting for the wind to drop, waves knee high at best.
Great session. Saw Hdip leaving as I was coming. We’d better get along because we somehow end up at the same spots at the same time weekly lol.
Progress, missed far less waves once the wind dropped and I got warmed up. If I go for a well formed wave, I get it. Was able to get the nose down on the larger waves and overall was able to start playing with altitude and getting out in front of the wave. I noticed actual silence which means I got my tail out of the wave.
Decided to try to go down the line and the acceleration is wild. I think I will need to swap out to my longer mast soon as the big wing has got to be poking out of the wave when I turn even a bit on the face.
I learned this from the videos. In fact, I understand a crash in a way that was never explained here (that I saw.) when I went to turn, I barely weighted as per suggestions and I turned down the line to the right (I’m good, so backside.) The acceleration was clear and then almost immediately I taco’d with the board flipping left. I wasn’t pushing it over (that I know) I’m assuming I breached the left tip out of the face due to my short mast. That would cause this. I hopped clear and was in no danger which brought me another tip I’d like to offer and get feedback on.
When you start turning, go backside first. If I’d gone frontside I’d have most likely taco’d with the foil going right which would have sent it at my front. With an impact vest and helmet, am I right that a back attack is likely less dangerous? This is simply due to me being in SoCal and a goofy but it feels safer to me.
I’m going to maybe do one more session on this mast unless I get a boat session in where I can get used to the tall mast. But I think I’m ready to graduate to 65cm.
Next thing to work on, turning. Not sure if I should keep this going or start a part 2 on that. Feedback? Admin?
Next steps are turning while remembering to drop the nose a bit to account for the wing depth and acceleration (which of course brings you higher.) can’t wait to feel that diver bomber turn for real that I experienced during a fall. It’s addictive.
Also, while I can’t seem to get the rhythm of pumping onto a wave while paddling yet, I can fully speed myself up. That’s really fun and I can see how pumping itself becomes fun. Can’t wait til I can kick out and see how far I can go.
Overall, 9 sessions and I’m ready to work on going down the line. So 2 months if you’re a weekender and it’s already super fun.
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Ok, so I need to update this thread for sure for all the beginners out there.
I had a slow month where I couldn’t really foil (conditions, tide, swell, schedule) but I made up for it in Sept. I got probably 5-6 sessions in so I’m maybe 16 sessions in now?
Biggest change is that I switched to an 1100 cm2 Curve M wing. So yeah, dropped from a 2100 to 1100 and a thinner profile. It’s been huge for me as I can keep it in the water and take most any drop without fear of launching myself. Huge confidence booster and has allowed me to go out in knee to waist high waves and not fear the big ones.
Now, this weekend a buddy said, “hey looks like you’re struggling to keep that wing up” and yes, it’s not flying as much as I’d like but when there’s push I get short flights. I actually want to go on record saying that if you don’t have access to a Waikiki style wave, this is a good strategy, if you can afford to have multiple wings.
Staying on progression, I can fly, do some proto-pumping, and feel pretty good. Time to work on flying more. (Bigger mast) and start turning down the line to see if I stay on this wing (down the line should provide more speed than straight) or move slightly up.
One issue with SUP foiling is that 2 spots I’ve foiled have a crazy current as the tide moves and that is a hassle to stand and paddle in. I basically can’t rest at all so I do short sessions, go rest, and then come back out. The current grabs the foil and it’s like someone jerking your leash when you turn. Not fun. Hope to get to where I can prone foil eventually and pick my gear according to spot and conditions.
Next steps are to hope for some wind. I really want to learn to turn the foil with my wind wing so I don’t have to deal with surf. I feel like a couple of hours on foil will let me rocket ahead.
As to gear next steps, I’m torn. I’d love advice. I want to try some smaller tails and to build myself some tails I can shim for the Gong fuse. That’s a start I know from watching this board. That will help me raise the lift on the M and also reduce it for my XL so I might find something that works there. I also might just buy a Curve L and move it back a bit in the box. I think that might be best for surfing longer term. 20% more wing seems like a manageable bump and might end up being a great all-around wing til I go HA next year. I see guys pump the Curve/Pro all the time on YouTube with a smaller (kite) tail, as someone mentioned.
Anyone in SoCal got a Pro/Curve L I can try? If not, if shipping isn’t too bad I’ll just get one and “zone it” if it’s wonky. Weird to be working up on the surf side and then down on the wing side. Hoping to eventually settle on a couple of wings that cover surf and wing, overlapping in the middle. Solent Gives me hope that my small wave surf wing and better wind wind wing might overlap if so that’d leave me with a quiver of 3 and a couple of tails to potentially cover 3 types of foiling.
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When you coming up to Sano? We can swap gear, and I've got a bunch Axis wing and stab combos you can try to see if a different style of wing feels better, and I wouldn't mind trying the Gong wings to see where they fall in the foil brand performance spectrum.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong the Gong wings at all....but I can say that from 1st hand experience that sometimes the wrong setup for an individual can hold them back much more than they understand or realize. Years ago I started on the original Sling-something wings they had out, and couldn't keep them aloft for anything. Then got the Go Foil Iwa/Maliko combo, and was up and flying in a session or two (since I had a pretty good idea of what not to do already with all the time I put in with the other setup I started with).
Just a thought. :-\
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Thx San O. And yes, I’ll try other stuff but I’m keeping the XL aloft fine (too well in waves lol) and like I said on anything waist high this thing is nice. It’s just that I literally went down to a wing with 50% of the area due to a good deal. Splitting the difference might be a sensible option right? lol way too sensible for me.
I also like that when I’m ballsy enough to tow or play in bigger waves I’ll have a great wing that can likely hold any speed I want to do. This will be my goto for behind the boat for sure.
Man, I gotta come down and yes, thx for the offer of trying some gear. My Carlsbad week was a bust due to work. (Hey, I cant complain about being successful during a pandemic and getting to work from a condo on the beach but I still will lol) I kept meaning to text and at least say hey. But I may have solved my lack of an e-bike, that 1.5-2hr wait is rough.
I’ll return the favor with a wing session up at Belmont when/if you want to see what it’s like in real wind. I’ll have a couple of boards soon and there are a lot of wings around in my new crew.
The LA crew is all about Axis so I’m being hammered with guys in love with the 900. The LA Axis / GoFoil gang wars of 2020 will be as famous as the crips and bloods someday.
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The LA crew is all about Axis so I’m being hammered with guys in love with the 900. The LA Axis / GoFoil gang wars of 2020 will be as famous as the crips and bloods someday.
Hahaha....yeah, the LAFC is a fun crew, and some of them actually make it down to Sano...lol ;D
But I really gotta get up to SBJ sometime and party with those fellas some...because that place looks really fun when it's working (which seems like all the time lately :o).
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Do it! I was there Sat and even I got some nice rides. ;) There’s a ton of good footage on Instagram this week. Steamroller keeps it fresh with the Top Gun references.