Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: GRVN on May 29, 2020, 08:39:17 AM
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Ok so Hello everyone!. I have been shaping and glassing for about 15 years and am very comfortable there. Vacuum bagging.... not so much. I can do it but have a trip coming up and wanted to see if it is worth it. I only prone foil and am wanting to make a supfoil for downwinding the gorge. 6'2 x 27 x 5.5 either 1.5 or 2lb eps(I can get any block here)
Option1
do a carbon vacbag layup.
-what schedule?
-Is the price worth it? Is it that much lighter?
Option2
Do an Sglass hand lam.
-I am a good laminator with over 500 glass jobs
-sglass is cheap compare to carbon
-this is way less work for me
-how much heavier wil this actually be
-Sglass is stiff but not as stiff as carbon
-will this be too heavy?
Option3
innegra under sglass handlam
I have no idea but heard it can be done.
All in all sglass would be way easier for me but am worried about weight and stiffness. I have to buy the vac and carbon is not cheap. If weight is close I would go sglass route. I am inserting stringers for the boxes to anchor too to prevent box destruction.
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I did a fair amount of research on this and S glass has a lot of great properties. Carbon can be brittle when compressed and is best in tension. For the costs I would not bother with Carbon unless you need to have the lightest. if you want more durability then I would use S glass.
you can always poor mans vacuum
I have had issues with innegra without a vacuum
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You can certainly get in the ballpark of vacuum bagging for weight using table wetting and/or Jimmy Lewis' "poor man's bagging" technique. The biggest benefit of bagging IMNSHO is better incorporation of the lamination layers. For me, it's a way to replace skill and experience with hardware. If you have 500 glass jobs under your belt you certainly have the experience I lack. I've been able to make some very light parts and modifications doing table wetting, and it works just as well for carbon as it does for glass. If you have a very smooth, hard surface table you can wet out the carbon as a sheet and then cut the reinforcement elements with a razor blade. I cut until I start having some strands that don't get cut on the first stroke and then change blades.
There's a video around somewhere of a great glasser who works for Nelson Boardworks in Maui cutting table-wet carbon patches on the table to make a Bill Foote Maliko 14. He makes it look like it's simple, but he's a magician. I forget his nickname.
I'd look at carbon patches for the areas that need reinforcement--rails, standing spots, track/Tuttle, etc. I do carbon over the bogged foam, and then glass over the carbon.
I only tried innegra once and made a complete hairball out of it. It wound up wadded on the ground outside my shop. DW uses it as I recall, and he could undoubtedly tell you the tricks.
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Interesting video https://youtu.be/KHXVf0SaJpA
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One fatal flaw with the plan...where to find WIDE S glass. When SUP died, manufacturers stopping running it.
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One fatal flaw with the plan...where to find WIDE S glass. When SUP died, manufacturers stopping running it.
I have found it in 38", 50" and 60" in 6oz and 9oz
Here are some I have found if it helps:
https://sweetcomposites.com/Fiberglass.html
https://compositeenvisions.com/composite-reinforcement-fabrics/fiberglass-cloth-mat-roving/?sort=featured&page=2
https://www.carbonfiberglass.com/composite-materials/Fiberglass-S2-Glass-Cloth
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You can certainly get in the ballpark of vacuum bagging for weight using table wetting and/or Jimmy Lewis' "poor man's bagging" technique. The biggest benefit of bagging IMNSHO is better incorporation of the lamination layers. For me, it's a way to replace skill and experience with hardware. If you have 500 glass jobs under your belt you certainly have the experience I lack. I've been able to make some very light parts and modifications doing table wetting, and it works just as well for carbon as it does for glass. If you have a very smooth, hard surface table you can wet out the carbon as a sheet and then cut the reinforcement elements with a razor blade. I cut until I start having some strands that don't get cut on the first stroke and then change blades.
There's a video around somewhere of a great glasser who works for Nelson Boardworks in Maui cutting table-wet carbon patches on the table to make a Bill Foote Maliko 14. He makes it look like it's simple, but he's a magician. I forget his nickname.
I'd look at carbon patches for the areas that need reinforcement--rails, standing spots, track/Tuttle, etc. I do carbon over the bogged foam, and then glass over the carbon.
I only tried innegra once and made a complete hairball out of it. It wound up wadded on the ground outside my shop. DW uses it as I recall, and he could undoubtedly tell you the tricks.
Yeah I have used a table before for wetting out pieces for vertical application. I have never done it for a board but I am beting would be light er for sure.
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What would be an appropriate layup schedule for the 10oz or 6oz s glass if I went that route?
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another s glass wide https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/4533.php
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Those are a joke. You paying those prices for S?
The surfboard SUP s2 was 42 and 44 wide 4 oz for $9 to $10 a yard back when it was easy to get.
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I love aircraft spruce, great company, but I only use them for stuff I can't get anywhere else. Like any niche general supplier company, their prices are always 2X since they don't have the individual product volume of a more focused company.
I know no professional, or for that matter, anyone who cared more about appearance would never do this, but I've never minded lapping narrower glass in the middle. Think of it as an extra stringer.
When I do table layup, which is almost always these days, I squeegee the cloth firmly, to the point that it looks almost dry. I did a little destructive testing on the method and find the strength of table layup to be a little greater than traditional wetting out--and a lot lighter. I was initially worried that the laminations would not be as well incorporated and might delaminate. I was wrong, it's better incorporated, probably because the glass matrix is not floating around in the resin.
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The nelson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTXB5wNfa0&feature=emb_logo
that is good stuff and easily in my ball park
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I love aircraft spruce, great company, but I only use them for stuff I can't get anywhere else. Like any niche general supplier company, their prices are always 2X since they don't have the individual product volume of a more focused company.
I know no professional, or for that matter, anyone who cared more about appearance would never do this, but I've never minded lapping narrower glass in the middle. Think of it as an extra stringer.
When I do table layup, which is almost always these days, I squeegee the cloth firmly, to the point that it looks almost dry. I did a little destructive testing on the method and find the strength of table layup to be a little greater than traditional wetting out--and a lot lighter. I was initially worried that the laminations would not be as well incorporated and might delaminate. I was wrong, it's better incorporated, probably because the glass matrix is not floating around in the resin.
Yeah not cheap I agree with the dry weave I used to do really dry lams with pressure and flick my wrist hard to being tension into it when doing the laps. The thump test after a board is complete tells the story to me.
I also wouldn't mind lapping the glass if that is the only option I end up with. A hybrid carbon/sglass seems pretty doable and I can start vac bagging later after my trip. Any thought on layup? double 6ozS top and bottom with carbon tape stingers and patch?
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Charlie from the UK has done all his boards in dual 6oz E. I just finished one as well with that layup and I’m really happy with it. So dual 6S would be fine I’m sure. We are lighter so if you are a bigger guy, use carbon patches for standing area etc.
We will see about the durability of my layup lol. I’m about 493 glass jobs behind you. Welcome to the board and thanks for the source links.
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Thank cowboy I am about 180 lbs. Glenn Pang has been making xps foil boards recently I gave up on that years ago due to delam but they are having some good experience currently. I guess I just need to bite the bullet.
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One fatal flaw with the plan...where to find WIDE S glass. When SUP died, manufacturers stopping running it.
Hey dwight Your boards are 100Percent innegra right? I am guessing you vac bag them? They look great. Could I get away with innegra with a layer of 6oz glass over it and poor mans vacuum? What would a good innegra schedule be?
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Innegra cannot be sanded. It must be capped with another fabric. I do not recommend using it unless a pro. Way to difficult to work with.
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I dont know what you consider a Pro. I am at hand laminating not at bagging. I have glassed for a living in my twenties.
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I have used innegra and you just have to be careful. As others have said DO NOT sand it. Not even just that little fiber that is sticking up! I have trimmed bits with a razor blade. On such a small board it should be fine by hand. Do a lap tape and glass straight over it.
I haven't tried it but I thought if I wasn't bagging I would lay up the innegra with a lap tape cut then next layer straight away instead of a hot coat. Make sure you really overlap the innegra with the second layer. Then the poor man's vac and you should be good. As I said I havnt tried it.
I also said on another post I made a board with a innegra flax bottom. It seems really tough. The flax dosnt crack or shatter like glass.
Innegra seems to have some great properties. Impact etc. You just have to get your head around how to use it. Dont treat it like glass.
If you look into how it's made they incorporate air into the fiber when they make it. Thats why it's so light.I think that's why it has a tendency to want to float if you use too much resin.
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Thanks taquin I was planning on weting it out on a table laying it out and immediately covering it with 4oz scloth poor man vacing that over it or I will just use carbon IDK buidling surfboards was a lot simpler lol I am not sure what the best schedule for a foil sup is and honestly i dont care what I use anymore I just want it to last and be light
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I am not sure but I would wait for the first layer to be tacky. Like that the epoxy has exothermed.
You have a lot more experience than me in glassing!
I have used S-glass and it's great. I cant see the point of using carbon unless you are going ultra light. S-glass is so much more impact and abrasion resistant than carbon.
On a foil board I would imagine strengthening the area around the foil box etc is more important than having an all carbon board.
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GRVN, innegra has plenty of spring back. A rail/lap test might be beneficial.
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GRVN, innegra has plenty of spring back. A rail/lap test might be beneficial.
Sorry do you mean I should do a test bc i might not be able to tuck the laps properly? I will probably baste to tacky and hope for the best if I go that route.
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I don't think I would do Innegra without vacuum bagging unless it was just a full flat surface. My singe experience got ripped off the board and tossed outside to kick because it kept springing up off every curve and lifting the glass with it. I tried everything I could think of while the clock ticked. Even working it while it was tacky didn't keep it down.
If I was going to try again I'd do half a dozen test pieces before I did anything big. I need some hand planes anyway.
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Ok so what would be the schedule with sglass or with carbon and sglass?
Carbon 3k + 6s top and bottom
carbon patch + 3x6s top and 2x6s bottom?
I dont know what is the norm
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I’ll add to your question. What weight of carbon? 3k is the number of tows. I’d assume 6oz but interested myself.
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I ended up ordering the gong inflatable that came out today. Ill play with making these after my travels.
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My last three boards are is 7.5oz +6oz glass with 6oz carbon 'stand patch'.
Two are for 'clydesdales' and the third rider is much lighter.