Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Dwight (DW) on May 21, 2020, 03:59:07 AM
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These look great. I love that they did not go totally flat and maintained some arc. The arc will make them way more fun to surf.
https://youtu.be/J6quaVZq7iQ
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Those do look really good. Cant wait to hear some reports on them.
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Those look amazing.
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These look great. I love that they did not go totally flat and maintained some arc. The arc will make them way more fun to surf.
If I had to guess, all of these nex gen foils, F-One’s new Phantom , Fanatic’s new HA Aero, Gong’s new Veloce, and Lift’s new high aspect line up, (and whoever else I missed), were designed with slightly less radical characteristics of the original flat pump standards (GoFoil’s GL’s, and SPG’s Albatross foils). Meaning they should all be more maneuverable for easier more intuitive turning. That is pretty much what they are all saying right now in these intro video’s. They are also bringing out these new lines with several size options, as opposed to one-size-at-a-time approach Axis has been taking. And many of us will get to be the happy-to-pay-full-price-guinea-pig-testers :)
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I am really liking the width of the Axis 920. Having less meat projected out at the wingtips is super comfortable. That makes riding on the centerline so much more natural and I don't feel like I need to keep pressure on the rails nearly as much as with the wider wings. The wingtips don't buck you around in turbulent water either. That is awesome. Same is true of the Axis 1000. Even though the width is there, the wingtips are really reduced and it feels great. These are all 37 inches wide (940) which seems like a great width for winging. Of course the smaller one is a lot higher aspect than the larger ones and the largest one looks more in line aspect ratio wise with what Axis is doing in its surf line.
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To be fair, Axis will announce a full line of sizes, in several new styles, when stock is available. You’re reading about insiders leaking info on prototypes they get to demo.
COVID has caused backlogs for everyone.
Lift have nothing on their web site about the new wings. Probably same issues as others.
It’s a real bummer, we are going through another season of gear shortage for wingers!
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Bad news on gear shortage for wingers. Just saw Colas posted this about Gong.
they are deluged with orders, it is so insane they have to work overtime. They beat their weekly sales amount record last week, and they ship 1500 products per week (mostly wings, foils, boards) on average now. They had to hire 5 more people recently to cope with the ever-increasing activity.
Winging is taking off like crazy here in Europe, their Lemon and Flint foil boards are backordered till mid-July...
Containers of 600 wings are 95% pre-sold when they arrive...
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I am really liking the width of the Axis 920. Having less meat projected out at the wingtips is super comfortable. That makes riding on the centerline so much more natural and I don't feel like I need to keep pressure on the rails nearly as much as with the wider wings. The wingtips don't buck you around in turbulent water either. That is awesome. Same is true of the Axis 1000. Even though the width is there, the wingtips are really reduced and it feels great. These are all 37 inches wide (940) which seems like a great width for winging. Of course the smaller one is a lot higher aspect than the larger ones and the largest one looks more in line aspect ratio wise with what Axis is doing in its surf line.
I just moved into Axis foils and my one an only is a 920. Makes me feel good that the 920 also works for you. It's working well for me too. Yes. Stable. And an easy lift. Sometimes I can maintain have mast lift just about wave tops. That feels very comfy and safe. I've had a run on the 1020 which lifts easy but it got away from me too. Changing subjects. Are the high aspect foils easier to release in a wave situation because of less drag? Hope you guys are well.
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The build quality of Lift foils is amazing. I have a current generation 170 which I probably have around 500 kiting sessions on and it just has a few superficial scratches. Their masts hold up just as well but do have some flex. For winging, I am all in with Armstrong and awaiting their high aspect offerings.
In general, if 2 wings are similar except for the aspect ratio, the HA wing will do almost everything better, IF one has the skills.
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To be fair, Axis will announce a full line of sizes, in several new styles, when stock is available. You’re reading about insiders leaking info on prototypes they get to demo.
COVID has caused backlogs for everyone.
Lift have nothing on their web site about the new wings. Probably same issues as others.
It’s a real bummer, we are going through another season of gear shortage for wingers!
Agreed, I can’t source any of these HA foils at the moment, and my Echo’s are no where in site after ordering 4 weeks ago. Oh well, a first world problem in the grand scheme of things. Still a firm believer in prioritizing skill progression over chasing new gear.........speaking of which, yesterday I managed my longest backwinded ride (just ~30 yds, but I exited standing up!), did a few more “reverse wing spin” jibes (need to come up with a better name for that), and managed some light wind transition pumping that actually kept me up on foil when I normally would have dropped right off. Baby steps without any HA foil or new wing-a-dings required :P
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I just moved into Axis foils and my one an only is a 920. Makes me feel good that the 920 also works for you. It's working well for me too. Yes. Stable. And an easy lift. Sometimes I can maintain have mast lift just about wave tops. That feels very comfy and safe. I've had a run on the 1020 which lifts easy but it got away from me too. Changing subjects. Are the high aspect foils easier to release in a wave situation because of less drag? Hope you guys are well.
That 920 is very versatile. The more I use it the more I like it. For Axis high aspect you would most likely be looking at the 1010 or the 1000. They are very different from one another. The 1010 is less easygoing than the 920. It lifts off really quickly and is very speedy but it throws me around a lot doing laps across our turbulent spring flow river. I loved it for light Baja wind and water where I found it super smooth but I find myself using the 920 here in modest wind for all but the very lightest days when I still use the 1020. The 1000 is a great wing for windier days. It is quick and really fun. It does have a higher wind requirement than the 920 though with me as pilot. Waves may change all of that. We haven't winged in waves yet so you will have to let us know what you find there.
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These look great. I love that they did not go totally flat and maintained some arc. The arc will make them way more fun to surf.
https://youtu.be/J6quaVZq7iQ
That looks awesome! I've always wanted to try a foil board but never have. One of these days I'll make it happen.
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My wife and I have about 5 days on the Lift HA wings. We own them all.
HA170 .....1096 sq cm
HA200 .....1290 sq cm
HA250 .....1612 sq cm
We have the 82cm mast.
What we have figured out so far....
They pump and glide forever. The first foils I have owned where I can honestly pump forever and not come off foil. Pretty freaky, when you consider “there are” way more radical looking pump specialist wings out there.
They turn, jibe, and carve rail to rail, like I like. More like older fun wings, and nothing like the dead flat wings. The local shop owner says, Armstrong is still the best at carving, but the Lift HA out pumps the Armstrong.
Now for the puzzling part. My wife and I both think it’s easier to knee start them and more stable riding on the surface, waiting for the next gust. But why, is the puzzler. The mast is the same length I have been riding on my old foils. So that’s not it. The Lift mast is “less stiff” than what I used to ride. So that’s not it. But the Lift HA are easier to pump onto foil than anything I’ve ridden. They are slippery little devils. So are we moving on the surface 2 or 3 mph faster in every situation, causing more stability in the board?
I’m actually riding the 1290 the most, because Jacky takes the 1612 in the super light wind. They pump so well, I can make the 1290 work in about anything.
Tip, they work best, forward in the tracks as compared to NP, GoFoil, Axis.
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You are killing me Dwight. I have a Lift mast for kiting so am very tempted.
If you got onto the pocket of a 3 foot wave and did nothing but glide, which of the 3 would go the longest time before stalling and coming off foil?
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You are killing me Dwight. I have a Lift mast for kiting so am very tempted.
If you got onto the pocket of a 3 foot wave and did nothing but glide, which of the 3 would go the longest time before stalling and coming off foil?
Don’t know. I’ve only ridden the 170 once.
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I watched John John on the 200 pump around and catch waves for 20 min straight. 20 min on foil just pumping out and riding waves in. Doing circles around the rest of us as we sat and waited for a wave big enough to break. Slippery is exactly how I described it the first time I tried my buddy's 200 HA.
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Can you compare it to the Axis 900 bigmtn? I saw one in the water the other day. Not sure the Axis rider who had tried it had favorable things to say. I think his point was, it's more unstable side to side when you first get up. The lift HA wing looks good. If the Axis 760 plays out how I imagine it to, I'm glad I switched to Axis though.
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So it’s sorta getting a bit exhausting for me chasing these foil wings around draining the wallet. I’m as guilty as anyone thinking I need to try (meaning buy and resell if I don’t like it) these different foils.
So far I’ve learned everything on one 8 month old well worn cheapy foil (Gong XL pro). Whether it’s underpowered on 6m Echo or fully powered on my 3.3m, it just seems to have that balance of high end, low end, carve and glide. It’s just friggin easy to use and progress with. I own a Moses 1100 and 790. They’re nice and techy light. The 1100 beats the XL pro in pumping and low end by just a teeny amount but I still go back to my XL pro for way better carving and the ability to improve my skills faster. Now I have some high strung Veloce’s on the way. Who knows if they will add something or not. Maybe the Lifts are magical solution, who knows.
I’m at that point where unless someone shows how they are suddenly achieving a much higher skill level, I’m asking why? Briefly tried an Axis 1150 the other day. Sort of like my Moses 1100 only even more pump/glide oriented and even more “flat turn style”. It’s sort of like a pumpers dream that reluctantly yields kicking and screaming when asked to get all carvy with a wing ding. The top level pro’s can ride almost anything and look 10 times better than any of us (no offense to anyone here). Just a case of gear fatigue this morning.......(and why I like talking about building skill level on this forum way more than talking about gear!)
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I’m right there with you Dave. I’ve tested and rejected a lot of foils that don’t offer what I want in a foil.
The only foils coming, probably next year, that have me wanting a test ride.......the Neil Pryde designed by Kane.
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Can you compare it to the Axis 900....
Lift is more loose, rolls faster, but in a good way. Predictable, fun, easy.
The Lift out pumps the 900, glides farther with less skill, doesn’t drop you.
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So it’s sorta getting a bit exhausting for me chasing these foil wings around draining the wallet. I’m as guilty as anyone thinking I need to try (meaning buy and resell if I don’t like it) these different foils.
So far I’ve learned everything on one 8 month old well worn cheapy foil (Gong XL pro). Whether it’s underpowered on 6m Echo or fully powered on my 3.3m, it just seems to have that balance of high end, low end, carve and glide. It’s just friggin easy to use and progress with. I own a Moses 1100 and 790. They’re nice and techy light. The 1100 beats the XL pro in pumping and low end by just a teeny amount but I still go back to my XL pro for way better carving and the ability to improve my skills faster. Now I have some high strung Veloce’s on the way. Who knows if they will add something or not. Maybe the Lifts are magical solution, who knows.
I’m at that point where unless someone shows how they are suddenly achieving a much higher skill level, I’m asking why? Briefly tried an Axis 1150 the other day. Sort of like my Moses 1100 only even more pump/glide oriented and even more “flat turn style”. It’s sort of like a pumpers dream that reluctantly yields kicking and screaming when asked to get all carvy with a wing ding. The top level pro’s can ride almost anything and look 10 times better than any of us (no offense to anyone here). Just a case of gear fatigue this morning.......(and why I like talking about building skill level on this forum way more than talking about gear!)
Check the packaging on your 1100. It is supposed to come with a "Go Directly to Balz" card. Inverted 720's are all but guaranteed.
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So it’s sorta getting a bit exhausting for me chasing these foil wings around draining the wallet. I’m as guilty as anyone thinking I need to try (meaning buy and resell if I don’t like it) these different foils.
So far I’ve learned everything on one 8 month old well worn cheapy foil (Gong XL pro). Whether it’s underpowered on 6m Echo or fully powered on my 3.3m, it just seems to have that balance of high end, low end, carve and glide. It’s just friggin easy to use and progress with. I own a Moses 1100 and 790. They’re nice and techy light. The 1100 beats the XL pro in pumping and low end by just a teeny amount but I still go back to my XL pro for way better carving and the ability to improve my skills faster. Now I have some high strung Veloce’s on the way. Who knows if they will add something or not. Maybe the Lifts are magical solution, who knows.
I’m at that point where unless someone shows how they are suddenly achieving a much higher skill level, I’m asking why? Briefly tried an Axis 1150 the other day. Sort of like my Moses 1100 only even more pump/glide oriented and even more “flat turn style”. It’s sort of like a pumpers dream that reluctantly yields kicking and screaming when asked to get all carvy with a wing ding. The top level pro’s can ride almost anything and look 10 times better than any of us (no offense to anyone here). Just a case of gear fatigue this morning.......(and why I like talking about building skill level on this forum way more than talking about gear!)
Shoutout to OBX for posting this. After reading everyone on the Zone raving about Axis I was convinced I needed to “upgrade” from my Gong XXL Pro foil setup. In reality it’s a fantastic foil...early take off, great glide, carves like a dream. There’s really no logical reason to upgrade and I worry that switching to Axis, Armstrong, or Moses might actually be a downgrade in some respects as the Gong has no noticeable weak areas for me personally. So thanks to OBX for saving me the expense of buying a completely new Axis foil setup (was going to get the 1150).
The XXL Pro is a really good design by Gong in my opinion. It’s sort of a mid-aspect wing that’s medium thickness, but it carves really nice and is plenty fast, yet forgiving. Now I’m trying to get my hands on the XL size!
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Box, Rasta, add these notes to the Allvator thread if you would. Collecting this stuff in one place now that there are 12 wings to choose from.
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Now for the puzzling part. My wife and I both think it’s easier to knee start them and more stable riding on the surface, waiting for the next gust. But why, is the puzzler.
Could it be fuselage length or the surface area of the stabilizer? The small change from the Axis Short fuselage to the Ultra Short really destabilizes my kit for knee starts (OK on the 1000 front but very tricky with the smaller front wings).
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Good point Admin. I’ll have to compared them.
I can’t go by data sheets. For example....my 710 Moses fuselage is actually 50 shorter than my 680 Axis fuse.
Then my 40 sq in Lift tail converts to 258 sq cm, but Axis tails are span and chord.
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Just checked them.
My 250/50 setup is about the same length as the short Axis.
My 200/40 is about like the ultra short Axis.
My tails are too different to compare.
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I was super impressed by the Lift gear I saw first hand. It was hard to compare to my gear because they have taken such a different approach. The Lift tails that this guy had a very long chord but seemed very thin and looked to have little or no down angle. I wonder if that surface may have a benefit in stability. If it does, that is a really nice feature.
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Dwight what rear stabilizer do you use on the 170? The 25ha? Is the 170 faster than the 200? How does it glide?
I am coming off the Moses 790 and want to get something after and with better glide, have been thinking about the 170 with 25 for that.
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I’m using the 34 tail with the 170. It’s pretty loose. The 25 might be beyond my comfort level.
I don’t have enough time on the 170 to say much about it, other than I can ride it no issue, with a 5m.
I’d “guess” the 200 with 40 tail, would be a better step down from the Moses 790. The 200 is fun and rangy.
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Thanks for your thoughts, did you have any pitch control issues on the 170 or 200?
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Everybody I've talked to here in Hawaii say they prefer the older tails over the new 25ha tail. 34 or 40 tails work better (mostly prone foiling)
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No pitch issues. Seemed comfortable right away.
Tip...they like to be way forward in the tracks compared to Axis, Neil Pryde, or GoFoil.
About 1 1/2” farther forward.
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The local shop owner had a good theory on why I might be feeling more board stability slogging on the surface. The lower drag mast, is giving me another mph or two of board speed.
Which if true, then you have to ask, should somebody give the 16mm Axis mast a try winging ;D It might be better. Leave the 19mm mast for SUP?
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Well that was interesting. He is not wrong, but a bit over the top.
The connection is tight, but did not require a hammer. It’s tapered on all 4 sides, so you do have to switch between screws to draw it down evenly. He is also right, in that it goes on easier after a few sessions.
The 200 is also my favorite. The 250 is a light wind workhorse.
https://youtu.be/qtAvT4VH50o
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Well that was interesting. He is not wrong, but a bit over the top.
The connection is tight, but did not require a hammer. It’s tapered on all 4 sides, so you do have to switch between screws to draw it down evenly. He is also right, in that it goes on easier after a few sessions.
The 200 is also my favorite. The 250 is a light wind workhorse.
https://youtu.be/qtAvT4VH50o
I’ve been a longtime MHL kitefoiler love the 170 classic to this day for kitefoiling,also had some good times supfoiling the 200 classic but for some reason the 250 classic supfoiling was the least favorite did not particularly like it so a little gunshy$ wise to buy the new 250 HA apples and oranges I know completely then and now but DW could give a little comparison wingingwise on the new 250 HA to the axis 1020/500 does it have similar lift as wingspan is more in 1020,do you think it would be better than the axis 1020 coming in foil seems like bit less drag and I’m sure once up it’s faster just wondering if it makes sense to buy it for me or just stay with my Axis setup but the new MHL is definitely intriguing being a longtime MHL fan kitefoiling wise and have there masts already do you think it might be good idea to try it out, and I’m 225 probably bit heavier than you,I have another friend who’s 190-200lbs loves it too but like to hear your POV since you have ridden both extensively.Thanks
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The HA 250 would be more like riding the Axis 92, but with better pumping.