Standup Zone Forum
General => Random => Topic started by: surf4food on April 19, 2020, 01:39:32 PM
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WTF is wrong with people? We also had one yesterday downtown San Diego. I am so appalled and disgusted by these people. So sick and tired of them whining and going on and on about their "constitutional rights" and "this is America".
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/encinitas-protest-beach-losures/509-e3386f42-e860-43ca-a9e2-48394b718511
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Interestingly, this is why I question as to whether why Sweden did would work here. We are way too entitled to think of others without a law to make us.
That’s the irony of these sorts of protests. They refute (to me) what the protesters say. “We can be trusted to do this ourselves and make responsible decisions.”
To me, their actions say otherwise. Am I tired of this? Sure. Do I agree with the length of this? Maybe not. But I’m a citizen above all. And citizenship carries a responsibility and contract that we act in the best interests of all of us.
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And citizenship carries a responsibility and contract that we act in the best interests of all of us.
Nailed it. Well said Surfcowboy!
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You can't teach someone the difference between selfish and selfless.
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WTF is wrong with people?
A principle for cooperation and getting along with people is finding common ground.
I also have been wondering WTF is wrong with people, and for the exact opposite reasons.
There is no common ground to be found in our differences. There is always common ground to be found in the feelings underlying our judgments.
Example: a shortboarder says a 6 foot potato chip is the best and only way to surf. A SUPPER says 9ft with lots of volume is where it's at.
These judgements lead to conflict and hostility. The feeling of stoke and excitement of riding waves is universal and shared and we can agree on.
We all want to feel and be healthy and do what we feel is in our best interests. Judging each other's health choices and practices as wrong leads to seperation and conflict.
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I’m not sure I totally get what you’re saying Clay. If you’re saying it’s wrong to judge someone or some group, no matter what their actions, because it can lead to separation and conflict, then with all due respect, I disagree.
When someone, or some group, potentially puts the health of either myself or my family at risk by their actions, then I’ll call them out every time.
Surfcowboy was dead on. Being a citizen carries a responsibility. And at times we not only have the right to call people out when they are not living up to that responsibility, we have a duty to do so.
You said we all want to feel and be healthy and do what we feel is in our best interests. That’s probably true. But there are times when we need to put others interests before our own.
Because of the Covid pandemic, I was in self isolation for 24 days. Fourteen days at one go and another ten days a bit later. My back paid a price for all that self isolation. I wanted to be outside and getting some exercise. That certainly would have been better for my health. But it certainly would not have been in the best interest of my community. So I stayed inside.
These “protesters” are putting their self interests ahead of everyone else’s and in the process could be endangering other people’s health. They should be called out for their actions and their lack of responsibility to others.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/B-0R1kFnv9v/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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When someone, or some group, potentially puts the health of either myself or my family at risk by their actions, then I’ll call them out every time.
I am going to say it up front that I think this whole scare mongering thing with the virus is BS and it is friggin ridiculous that it has gone so political.
Not singling you out, just the statement.
But that statement can be used completely the wrong way because I can say you, me and/or any one else does this everyday, probably several times a day, just with your regular daily actions. One would be getting in the car to drive to the store. 30 to 60K , round numbers, deaths a year with car accidents. I am sure every one here drives a vehicle. Are you going to call us out for that.
I can probably assume that most of us have had the flu. That kills 30 to 60k a year, round numbers again. You gonna call people out for that.
Where will it end.
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I am sure every one here drives a vehicle. Are you going to call us out for that.
Call you out for driving a car? No, of course not. But for driving a car while intoxicated? Or for drag racing a car in a residential area when kids are playing? You bet I will.
So I guess it’s about degrees. You say just driving a car endangers others. I say as a society we have accepted that risk. What we haven’t accepted is the risk associated with driving a car when someone is drunk. We have taken away your individual right to drive when you are drunk. Why? Because we have said we will accept the risk of people driving a car, after they have been licensed to do so, but we will not accept the risk of someone driving a car while drunk and recklessly and unnecessarily putting others at risk.
In my view, the same applies here. As a civilized society, we have accepted that people have the right to protest. But what is being said right now, in the face of an infectious disease that has in some countries over run their medical systems, is that we need to practice social distancing and put up with some other restrictions. Why is this being asked? Because the actions of not practicing social distancing and not following other restrictions may very well put others at risk.
So maybe you and I just disagree on whether or not Covid 19 warrants the restrictions that are being put in place. That’s a fair debate and we will just have to agree to disagree.
But what I think most reasonable people can accept, is that society has the right to put limits on their citizens actions. Again, we may disagree as to what those limits should be. I happen to think the restrictions that are in place because of Covid 19, for the most part, are reasonable and I believe the protesters, by their actions, are unnecessarily and recklessly putting others at risk.
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I will agree to disagree with you. Drunk driving is definitely something that should not be done for the sake of driving. A lot of people are killed in accidents that have nothing to do with alcohol though.
For all the crazy headlines that young people are dying, the reality from the numbers is that is not really true. Yes there are very FEW young people and almost all of them have some sort of comorbid other thing. More studies are coming out showing how many people have it and don't know it which means only minute amount of people will die from it. No different than a lot of other diseases.
I am inline with way sweden is handling things with isolating the people that are at risk.
I saw a saying that I agree with "my freedom does not begin where your fears end"
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People want freedom, and at the same time have an expectation of how other people should act. They want the restrictions lifted, but if they or their family get sick they demand care--from other people, whose freedoms and safety are compromised to meet their demand.
The Norman Rockwell picture of a guy holding forth in a town meeting comes to mind. It's idealized as representing democracy, but it always reminded me of how people rant about their own issues and rarely pay attention to anyone else's problems unless they directly intersect their own.
My tolerance for such stupidity is low. My oldest daughter is taking leave from her job at a VA hospital to work at a Detroit field hospital. She told my wife "I know I'm going to get sick, but I want to help". My youngest daughter is a respiratory therapist. The only reason she isn't in New York or Seattle is that her community needs her. Both of them have significant comorbidities. I'm a bit worried.
My wife spends her days making masks for people who need them. I spend my time farting around on projects, trying to figure out how to get in the water without getting arrested, and sending a little money to organizations doing smart things. I have no room to complain about any compromise to my freedoms.
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I know 3 people who went to the Olympia protest yesterday. One of them fits the MSNBC version of the protesters perfectly, he lives in the back woods with his family and a dog. He runs a small business and loves guns and freedom. The other 2 are a couple of really great people, he is a small contractor (residential renovations) and she is a real estate agent. Between the two of them, I would imagine they volunteer over 1,000 hours yearly to community service and have never said no to any donation for school or agricultural groups. They are definitely conservative, but true to their beliefs, and extremely kind-hearted people. They take care of others.
Calling these people "COVIDIOTS" or MAGAts is just divisive without reason. To them, the harm of the shutdown order outweighs the risk of the virus - and they can easily prove their point. Many Americans find their personal value in their daily work or service to others, an unemployment check fills the money hole, but duty and service is their character. The first thing we ask someone when we meet them is "What do you do?". Even with current evidence (models) to the contrary, they have the right to do this - so it is understandable.
IMO I doubt these outdoor protests will affect the virus spread, as they are outside and from the sounds of it family groups stayed together but most folks observed social distancing. The science regarding outside spread vs inside spread is stacking up. It is easy to take a picture at ground level and make a beach or street look really crowded. Try it from a drone and the picture is different. Just like any perspective (visual or mental). I do feel like these people are changing the narrative. As the science unfolds along with the politics it is likely we will see in hindsight, the right response to the virus is somewhere between stay at home and do nothing. The government can only manage with push broom, when a croupiers stick is the right tool.
PBill I salute your daughters, filling in at a place of need, despite the risk is honorable. States should be removing their licensing requirements to have nurses fill in as needed from other places. I have a nurse friend who has had his hours cut severely. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. My wife weeps to me about the divide among children (haves and have nots) as this progresses. She is working from home on welfare checks and student mental health and while she probably cares too much, the collateral damage to many poor families is legitimate. She is seeing real-time tragedies that are the result of the reaction not the virus. You see people say "Well being broke is better than being dead", but you rarely see them say "Being an abused child is better than being dead." Those optics are bad.
Quickbeam you point out that there may be externalities to the protestor's actions (i.e. they may spread infection), but you can also admit there are externalities (life and death ones) with shutting down economies, non-CV healthcare and outdoor recreation/fitness?
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30 to 60K , round numbers, deaths a year with car accidents. I am sure every one here drives a vehicle. Are you going to call us out for that.
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I really don’t understand the car fatalities comparison. Car crashes/fatalities are not contagious. You can’t spread a case of car fatalities to people through coughing. Car fatalities are just accidents that happen for a various number of reasons.
Also, how many people do you see on the road driving with their phone in their hand? It’s certainly common knowledge by now that distracted driving is just as dangerous as drunk driving. But people still do it. Are these the same people we expect to act responsibly???? People can’t drive their cars without endangering the people around them much less be expected to be responsible enough to think about the people around them who might be at risk during this pandemic.
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I can see that frustration is turning to desperation and anger in a lot of people. I saw an interview of a protester who had been laid off. She's single and has a child who is now home from school. The checks that where supposed to come from the government haven't. She'll be out of money and possibly on the streets soon if the money doesn't come.
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Quickbeam you point out that there may be externalities to the protestor's actions (i.e. they may spread infection), but you can also admit there are externalities (life and death ones) with shutting down economies, non-CV healthcare and outdoor recreation/fitness?
Hi SUP Leave. Yes, I readily admit that there are some very real consequences with the restrictions that are being implemented. And I hope my opinion is not being interpreted that I am in any way minimizing these consequences, because I’m not. They are real and they are serious.
But so are the consequences of not having restrictions, or in some cases implementing restrictions too late or lifting them too early. Just look at what happened in Italy, or Spain or even China and the fear of what is currently unfolding in Japan. These are also very real consequences.
So I suppose it’s a bit of a balancing act. The authorities try and do the best they can for the most they can. It’s not possible to have zero consequences.
I see the restrictions as a reasonable precaution against some of the possible outcomes. This is a very infectious disease. So I would prefer to see restrictions in place to try, to whatever extent possible, to minimize the infections so we can hopefully prevent our medical system from being over run. Because when our medical system gets over run we put our health care workers at risk and we put others at risk who might suffer from other medical situations, but can’t get treatment because the system can no longer cope.
So once again, and in answer to your question, yes I most certainly would agree that these restrictions carry with them their own consequences. I just think not having the restrictions would quite possibly result in worse consequences.
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Hope nobody comes unglued here ... but I did go for a surf on Sat. Was in the water a bit before 8am, and out and back home by 10am. Rest assured no one (or their families) were endangered, and no my conscience isn't bothering me. I'm capable of acting responsibly without needing to be told to, or checked on. And yes I know there are those who won't, but that is always the case (and they will need to be dealt with). Outside of that, I didn't venture away from home during my 3-day weekend (had Fri off), and that was for an outdoor activity that is wisely allowed here when conducted responsibly. Healthy for the body, mind, & soul.
More importantly, it's time to begin the recovery in concert with the ongoing measures (prevention/testing/vaccine), and that means smartly starting to get this country going again now. If our economy goes over the not to distant cliff, it won't be long before the conversation changes. The focus will then be the very large and growing number of individuals (and their families) whose financial viability is threatened, and the negative fall-out that will occur from that. Hell for many people, that point has already arrived.
Yes it's likely to be a difficult transition and there will be casualties, but this too will be for the greater good of the living.
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Nobody denies the consequences of the shutdown. People are going to be financially ruined. Many will wind up homeless (I have several friends who are now sleeping in their cars). Others have had to take money out of their kids college fund, and others will now have to give up retirement. It sucks but it's the hand we have been dealt. The ONLY way to get things back to normal is to stop or at least significantly get the virus under control.
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Hi QB - I pretty much agree with you.
The thing about these protests is: They would not happen if the government could manage this response scaled to the individual communities affected. They are the result of overreach into areas that do not need it. The attendees at the WA state protest yesterday were not from the Puget Sound area, they were from areas with little or no impact from C19. The hospitals in 90+% of the country have ample capacity (dying for lack of customers), it is time to open the throttle on social control to see the effects. This (to me) means personal responsibility based on facts provided.
As I stated above, the government by its nature has to regulate in broad strokes, and only the individual has the ability to regulate themselves for their own safety. I have a bad feeling that the broad brush approach is going to lead to an uncontrollable spike in cases when the reins are released. I think throttling the case loads along a minimum and maximum band (based on hospital usage) would be far more effective, not only in getting the virus over with, but in being able to track vectors, instead of calling everything a possible vector. Why hold off completely on the spread of C19 and pile it onto regular flu season? The problem with my approach is that you have to admit that you want cases to spread incrementally and even if it is a fact, our politics make it impossible to implicitly state.
So, surf4food, is the virus out of control? Can a virus even be in control in a country like the USA? I don't think so. The only thing we can control is our response. The virus is like the weather (a natural function) but worse, it is like a hurricane that can wait for you outside the door.
Is homelessness a healthier outcome than the virus? Is working longer a healthier outcome than retirement? Is quality of life ever considered, or just life itself is good enough?
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Most of the protesters in Encinitas were not from Encinitas and I doubt most of them were surfers. Organizers from LA area, Riverside, East County and El Cajon political groups. Check out their facebook profiles.
Most surfers I know in Encinitas want to get back on the water, but we want to do it safely and in an organized manner. That probably means not letting Zonies and other virus carriers into our parking lots.
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Most of the protesters in Encinitas were not from Encinitas and I doubt most of them were surfers. Organizers from LA area, Riverside, East County and El Cajon political groups. Check out their facebook profiles.
Most surfers I know in Encinitas want to get back on the water, but we want to do it safely and in an organized manner. That probably means not letting Zonies and other virus carriers into our parking lots.
Same here in San Clemente. The vast majority were just a bunch of astroturfers looking for a good place to spew their political agendas and hatred, that's completely unrelated to opening our beaches and/or business here in SC. As they say, "Never let a good crisis go to waste". Smh...
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So, surf4food, is the virus out of control? Can a virus even be in control in a country like the USA? I don't think so. The only thing we can control is our response. The virus is like the weather (a natural function) but worse, it is like a hurricane that can wait for you outside the door.
Is homelessness a healthier outcome than the virus? Is working longer a healthier outcome than retirement? Is quality of life ever considered, or just life itself is good enough?
Those are shitty choices but here we are.
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I have to admit, this has got me off my butt and I've been studying to take some state and national licensing exams. Not going to change my life kinda stuff, but surfing always dominated my free time.
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Cracks me up these meatheads. "Open the country!!"...by closing its borders. Heck no, these protests ain't political at all. Smh... ::)
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Austrian economist Ludwig Von Mises observed long ago that restrictions - central planning - state control have a calculation problem.
As in what, if any, restrictions will work?
Do they have to many or not enough, for how long, what places to close and what to stay open? Do we need soap or hand sanitizer or gloves or nothing? Masks or no masks? What kind of masks? Ventilators, respirators, fresh air, or DNR? How many of each? Are they free or who pays? Where does the money come from? How much? Inflation or deflation? City, county, state, federal, global? Who's giving the orders? Who's enforcing? What are the penalties for disobeying? Jury, judge, or executioner?
The heavy handed top down approach often causes more problems than it's attempting to solve.