Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Quickbeam on February 24, 2020, 11:26:26 PM
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Hi Guys,
I’m brand new to this sport and as of right now don’t own any equipment. You have all been very generous in guiding me as to what equipment I should and should not consider as I get started on this new venture.
I thought that if I like this sport, and if it’s anything like SUP, I will most likely start out on one board and end up getting different boards as I progress. So I thought if I had the opportunity to get a used board and save some money, maybe I should go that route first.
I’m hoping to get your opinion on a used foil board I found on our local Craigslist. You can see the board in question here (https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/spo/d/vancouver-sunova-sup-foil-surf-board/7061839000.html).
Do you think this would be a decent board to get me started?
Would a foil set up of an Axis 1020 front wing, Standard fuselage, 500 tail and 68 cm. mast work O.K. on this board (Admin. had suggested this foil set up and I am currently looking into it).
And just so you know, I’m 5’ 8” tall and weigh just over 150 pounds. The wind on the lake I will be learning on is light compared to what you are used to. My wind would generally range somewhere between 9 mph and 12 mph.
As always, your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.
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That looks like a good board to get started with to me.
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I have no info about this board but if you are looking at used boards/older boards I would check that the foil mount is parallel to the deck and that there is no rocker at the foil tracks. I used a board early on where the foil angle would change significantly based on where the foil was in the slider (and where it was not parallel with the deck without shims). That is majorly disorienting!
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I don’t think it is a good idea to invest in this board at that price level. For $1600 you can get new dedicated foil board like JL or Kalama that will kick the crap out of that one. Not worth it. And that long nose in the front is gonna be a dead weight flying. Stay away.
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Thanks guys for your replies.
And gzasinets, I appreciate your feedback and your honesty, but I think the prices you are quoting are in U.S. dollars, and as I’m in Canada, I will pay a lot more for the boards you mentioned. As an example, I looked on Kalama’s website and it looks like the boards are a minimum of $1,749 although there is one on sale for $1,699. But for me, living in Canada, by the time I put the exchange rate and other charges on, $1,699 U.S. will equal about $2,300 Canadian. And then to get it across the border it is going to cost another $225 to $250 so now I’m over $2,500. So now that’s over double what the used board is. I’m also guessing that I might be able to get the used board for at least a little less than the advertised price.
So if this board isn’t any good then I’m not interested, but I’m just wondering if it would be O.K. for a beginner board just to learn on? I’m having thoughts in my head of Pono learning on “Mr. Fugly”. Maybe this could be my equivalent???
So I guess my point in all this is that prices for me are different than what they are for those living in the U.S. But again, I’m not interested in wasting money on something that isn’t going to work.
Thanks again everyone for your input. Positive or negative, it is all appreciated.
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FWIW we paid $1200 brand new for our Slingshot Outwits. They are incredibly strong, really light for their sizes and were great to learn on. These are still our big boards. The 6'6 would be stable enough for you to start on.
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QB, Setting aside Sunova not having a tendency to put out real dog boards. ...perhaps a good way -if you are starting at zero- would be to find an inexpensive board in your currency and use a plate mount. An AH Sprite may be a better way to learn how adept at, and enjoyable racing is, for you vs buying a new F3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D9nLsD2UJ4&t=3s
Jim
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FWIW we paid $1200 brand new for our Slingshot Outwits. They are incredibly strong, really light for their sizes and were great to learn on. These are still our big boards. The 6'6 would be stable enough for you to start on.
Thanks Admin. Funny enough, Slingshot was actually one of the boards I was thinking of as I believe we have a distributor not far from me. I'll need to double check to be sure. Thanks again.
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I use the 6'6" outwit in one of my schools and it works great for teaching wing. The 2020 stuff will be out soon and you'll get even better deals on the strut that's out now. For your size, you can go with the smaller size than the 6'6". The Axis 1020 is great for learning also. I use those and Neil Pryde large wings.
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Quickbeam, you mentioned lake and light wind. That should work well for the Outwit.
I believe the Admin has a protected spot to get on the board with lighter winds and where it is not too choppy so again the Outwit worked well.
However, a word of warning for anyone that starts off in a non-protected spot with high winds and extremely choppy water. You need really good wing control to get up in those conditions on the Outwit. Without many hours of successful wing foiling on another board you will not be able to get off your knees.
That was my experience. I can now use the Outwit no problem, but starting out I could not get on it at all in choppy seas. The beveled rails make it tip over easy, and if the wing is pulling you one way, and the chop is pushing you all over the place, it becomes too unstable for a beginner.
Just for reference I had 2 hours of practice on land, and probably 4 hours or so of practice on a big windsurf board with a dagger board, so I though my wing control was already good enough, but it was not. I also was an expert Wind Foiler who could walk all over that size board without issues, and I was using the same exact foil so I know what that foil feels like and had completely mastered it.
After that experience I moved to a 7' 6" board with a flat bottom, similar to the board the OP is considering. With that board I could get off my knees and I started to learn to wing foil.
At my location it is really important to push learning on a bigger board. Unfortunately I see too many skilled foilers use the wing with their smallish SUP foil that they are expert foilers on in the waves. They can foil on those boards in their sleep. Yet they come out with the wing, and they flounder all around, fall in, get no foil time, and than say this is BS and go back to foiling waves.
The other problem I see is an assumption that all that is needed is a size 4 wing in any wind. That is also total BS that gets them in trouble. They come out in wind that requires a size 6 with their size 4 and of course can't do anything other than go downwind holding the wing up.
This poor initial experience is stopping a lot of people from learning wing foiling, and I feel bad that they just had the wrong equipment, the wrong assumptions, so it turned into a bad experience.
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Yes, I think that's your fugly, and when you outgrow it, you can surf it. I'd say grab it knowing it's in Canuckbucks and what your other options are. Sunovas are strong and tough. You should be able to easily get your money's worth out of it.
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$1,200 Canadian - That's like Play Money 8)
Just kidding. I have been paying ~ $900 USD for used, imperfect foil boards.
My go-to this winter has been a 7' 4" L-41 Hybrid like the one you have displayed. I have 3 foil boards:
- 6 Foot Jeff Clark
- 6' 6" Blue Planet
- 7' 4" L-41
Over the past 15 months 2 of these 3 boards have been broken at different times. I have put a minimum of 10 hours into fixing EACH of these boards.
If the waves are below 6 feet I will use the 6' Jeff Clark. If waves are above 6' and/or there is wind and chop I will use the 7'4".
If I had to use one board to travel, or for all conditions it would be the 6' 6" Easy Foiler.
There is NO WAY I would have been comfortable on the 6' Clark board in the first 100 sessions. Too short.
Short Answer - The big board can be your 1) Beginner Board and 2) Your go-to for imperfect or BIG conditions in the future.
PS: If you're only Wing-Dinging then I don't know anything.
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Quickbeam, you mentioned lake and light wind. That should work well for the Outwit.
I believe the Admin has a protected spot to get on the board with lighter winds and where it is not too choppy so again the Outwit worked well.
However, a word of warning for anyone that starts off in a non-protected spot with high winds and extremely choppy water. You need really good wing control to get up in those conditions on the Outwit. Without many hours of successful wing foiling on another board you will not be able to get off your knees.
We started on our Outwits (6'6 and 5'10) and spent a few days on them. It was June in the Gorge which meant a lot of wind at a lot of different locations. We were getting pretty pummeled so I borrowed a bigger board from Bill (which was a sidewalk for me) and Chan used the 6'6 Outwit (which was a sidewalk for her). I bought a 6'11 142 L and spent a week on that. We then both went back to our Outwits and those were fine at that point. If you are starting from scratch it is a little tough because you only need your starter board for a very short while but you do need it for rougher water.
I am confident that Quik will have a great experience on the 6'6 Outwit. He is 20 lbs lighter than and will be riding light wind on a lake. The Outwit will be very stable for him and it is a terrific board for cruising and easy takeoffs.
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Can you take a road trip to Seattle?
https://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/spo/d/tacoma-naish-foil-board-sup/7082248629.html
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That's a pretty good deal. the Malolo foil is old and that wing is dinky, but the new wings are compatible
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Look into the blue planet boards - I got a 6’0” shipped to buffalo n drove down to pickup from Ontario. I know they are having a clear out sale on gear as they are moving locations. There where deals on board and foil packages n shipping to major destinations. If it works for you have it shipped to south of border n drive down to pickup. Mike, Kevin and the rest of the guys are really great at answering any questions you might have. Give them a call
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Quickbeam, you mentioned lake and light wind. That should work well for the Outwit.
I believe the Admin has a protected spot to get on the board with lighter winds and where it is not too choppy so again the Outwit worked well.
However, a word of warning for anyone that starts off in a non-protected spot with high winds and extremely choppy water. You need really good wing control to get up in those conditions on the Outwit. Without many hours of successful wing foiling on another board you will not be able to get off your knees.
We started on our Outwits (6'6 and 5'10) and spent a few days on them. It was June in the Gorge which meant a lot of wind at a lot of different locations. We were getting pretty pummeled so I borrowed a bigger board from Bill (which was a sidewalk for me) and Chan used the 6'6 Outwit (which was a sidewalk for her). I bought a 6'11 142 L and spent a week on that. We then both went back to our Outwits and those were fine at that point. If you are starting from scratch it is a little tough because you only need your starter board for a very short while but you do need it for rougher water.
I am confident that Quik will have a great experience on the 6'6 Outwit. He is 20 lbs lighter than and will be riding light wind on a lake. The Outwit will be very stable for him and it is a terrific board for cruising and easy takeoffs.
Admin, you nailed it earlier in this thread. The used board I’m looking at does require shims for the foil as the foil mount is not level to the deck. The seller of the board volunteered this to me, so good on him for being honest. So I’m not so sure about this board any more.
Which leads me to the Slingshot Outwit. I have a couple of concerns. First of all, I read one review saying that the Outwit does not have a gortex breather valve, but rather has a solid plug instead. This was from a couple of years ago, so I’m wondering if that has changed on the newer versions of the board?
And secondly I am concerned about stability. Although the wind speed would lead you to believe otherwise, our lake does get fairly choppy. And not only choppy water, but also confused water. It’s a small lake and gets a lot of boat traffic, and that really does lead to confused water. And secondly, even without the boat traffic, the wind does create a fair bit of chop on the water. I’m still trying to find someone who can give me an accurate wind speed number, as I’ve been told our wind is between 15 km per hour and 20 km per hour. But when I look at different videos of people wing surfing and they estimate their wind speed to be much greater than that, it just looks to me like the water I’m on has a lot more chop to it. Possibly it’s as simple as videos don’t really show how choppy the water actually is???
Maybe I can give this example. I’ve got a 12’ 6” x 26” One Sup Evo and I’m fine on our lake, in the wind, on this board. It can be difficult paddling into the wind, but I’m pretty stable on the board. I’ve also got the same board in a 12’ 6” x 24”. As far as stability on this board, I’m fine going into the wind or going down wind on my 24”, but if the wind is coming broadside, I’m usually down on my knees. I’ve also got a 12’ 6” x 22” One Sup Edge, and I just don’t take this board out in the wind. But to be fair, it is designed as a flat water board.
So all that said, I am concerned about how stable I will be on the Slingshot. If I do end up with the Slingshot, it will be the 6’ 6” I’d go for. And I don’t mind spending the money, but I am concerned that I end up with something that I won’t be able to learn on.
Really not sure what to do now.
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Look into the blue planet boards - I got a 6’0” shipped to buffalo n drove down to pickup from Ontario. I know they are having a clear out sale on gear as they are moving locations. There where deals on board and foil packages n shipping to major destinations. If it works for you have it shipped to south of border n drive down to pickup. Mike, Kevin and the rest of the guys are really great at answering any questions you might have. Give them a call
Sorry supmmmm. I didn't see your post before I just put up my last post. I'll take a look and thanks for the suggestion.
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O.K., don’t know why I didn’t think of this earlier. I got in touch with a sailor friend and thought he might be a good judge of wind speed. He confirmed that normally our wind is in the range of 15 km per hour to 20 km per hour, but added that we get days where it gets substantially higher. So I’m going to count on the average wind being what I originally said, that being somewhere between 15 km per hour to 20 km per hour.
We do however still get confused conditions on our water due to boat traffic.
So a couple of final questions. Once again, does anyone know if the newer Slingshot Outwit boards have the gortex valves, or do they still have the solid plugs that need to be physically released?
And finally, given our wind speed and the fact we can get confused conditions, would the Slingshot still be a good option for me?
Thanks so much guys. Can’t believe how patient you’ve all been with this complete newbie! Really, really appreciate all your help.
Oh, one last thing. On the positive side, I think I’ve found a local distributor for Axis foils. I thought I was going to need to order from the U.S., but it sounds like we have someone local. So once I can get this board sorted, I will also order the Axis foil equipment.
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Regarding the plug I never touch mine. I believe it is solid but not sure. I don't store my board in the sun, and I don't travel with it on planes nor change elevation. I think the general consensus here is you just keep it tight. Maybe that is wrong, not sure. You can call Slingshot at 1.877.775.4832. I have called a couple times and they are very helpful. They could tell you more about the plug.
Your wind speed is very light and being you are using a small lake I think even with some boats going by your water is still relatively flat. When I said it was choppy I am talking wind speeds double what you mention and in the the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
So I think the Outwit would be a good choice but if you could start on a larger foil SUP it would make things even easier.
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Admin, you nailed it earlier in this thread. The used board I’m looking at does require shims for the foil as the foil mount is not level to the deck. The seller of the board volunteered this to me, so good on him for being honest. So I’m not so sure about this board any more.
I would not do that. A few degrees of angle makes a big difference and you cannot eyeball it well. You will be moving your foil around and trying to adjust shimming make no sense. You want a board that has already worked all of that out for you. There are enough variables as it is :).
The Outwit 6'6 will be stable to get started on and it will stick with you for a quite a while. Like Supkailua mentioned, you are still really describing flatwater. What tends to be a problem is larger chop/swell/current combined with strong winds. These wings are very polite in the winds that you are talking about. They will tug at you a lot more when the wind is stronger. Combine that with wilder water and you want to have a reliable and quick kneestart handy. I am really confident that you will do great on the 6'6 Outwit.
I stuck the plugs in when we bought our boards and have never taken them out. Mine stayed baking on top of my car most of the summer and has flown without removal. I am sure that this is not the treatment suggested in the manual, so that is not proper handling advice, just our experience. These things are really strong.
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I agree with Admin. When I first looked at that board I did not realize the foil would need to be shimmed. I think the Outwit would be a better choice.
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Hi Everyone,
Thought I should finish this up. First of all, a sincere thanks to all of you who responded. My head was just spinning through all this and I’m not sure I could have waded through it without your help. So again, thank you.
Today I’ve been busy. I now have a new Slingshot Outwit, 6’ 6” on order. And on Friday I go and pick up my new Axis foil kit. I won’t get a Wing for a while yet as I really can’t start using any of this gear until probably sometime in May. I’m also still a bit undecided on which Wing to get and thought I should probably wait and see what some of the 2nd generation Wings look like. Don’t be surprised if you see me back here asking more newbie questions about Wings.
Have to admit I’m kind of nervous right now. While I am a pretty avid paddle boarder, I’ve never surfed, never been on a foil, and never been involved in any kind of wind sport. What the hell am I doing??? But Winging just looks like so much fun. I had to take the plunge. I just hope our lake temperature is pretty warm this summer, because I think I’ll be spending a whole lot more time in the water than on it.
Who knows. By the end of the summer I’ll either be Winging like crazy, or you’ll see a whole bunch of gear for sale in the classifieds.
Thanks again everyone. I really did appreciate all your help.
And finally, I have to give a quick shout out to Jim K at Extreme Windsurfing. He reached out and offered me a great deal on the Slingshot, which I graciously took him up on.
One more final, final shout out. I hate to single anyone out, because I really have appreciated all the responses. But I did want to send out a special thank you to Admin. He has been advocating this sport since almost its’ inception and has certainly pointed me in the right direction. Many thanks.
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WTH? It's GOT a TUTTLE box.
No front back variables there.
Looks like a pretty darn good setup as a learner board for your size.
I'm in the same scenario, inland lake, very light wind. (less than you are stating). But I'm 210lbs. Decision between the "floater" to make it easy to learn (Slingshot Flyer 280) at 300L or the floatiest "mid" sized board (7-8' 150ish Liter) that I know I'll want very quickly after. Especially as I plan to foil mostly as we won't have enough wind to get on plane.
Get a cheap wind meter, $50 or so. REAL eye opener! Even in Hawaii I was stunned at how much less the wind speed was versus our perception.
You can look up your lake and get historical wind measures with avg high speeds, etc. In northern Indiana the MAX speed from May-Sept is 12mph on average. High of 18mph for the year, that in Oct. LOL Pitifully slow. Lookign at windsurf to get bigger sail versus wing and ordering the XL NP Glide wing that people get up at <10mph , but I may still be behind the jetski or riding pontoon wake more than winging. :-X
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WTH? It's GOT a TUTTLE box.
No front back variables there.
Looks like a pretty darn good setup as a learner board for your size.
I'm in the same scenario, inland lake, very light wind. (less than you are stating). But I'm 210lbs. Decision between the "floater" to make it easy to learn (Slingshot Flyer 280) at 300L or the floatiest "mid" sized board (7-8' 150ish Liter) that I know I'll want very quickly after. Especially as I plan to foil mostly as we won't have enough wind to get on plane.
Get a cheap wind meter, $50 or so. REAL eye opener! Even in Hawaii I was stunned at how much less the wind speed was versus our perception.
You can look up your lake and get historical wind measures with avg high speeds, etc. In northern Indiana the MAX speed from May-Sept is 12mph on average. High of 18mph for the year, that in Oct. LOL Pitifully slow. Lookign at windsurf to get bigger sail versus wing and ordering the XL NP Glide wing that people get up at <10mph , but I may still be behind the jetski or riding pontoon wake more than winging. :-X
HI MLB,
It has both Tuttle and track. Quick will definitely want to be able to adjust his mast position. Getting that lined up for your foil setup and your weight is important for easy take offs.
PS: We lived in Chicago way back when and windsurfed in Indiana quite a bit. That was frustrating! I used to skate sail in the parking lots when it wasn't windy enough to get out on our Windsurfing gear. There were a lot of those days. Thinking back on it, those would be great wingsurfing days.
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Quick - don't let not having a wing stop you from learning to foil on your new kit. Try get a tow somewhere - boat or wake board cable...
Can sympathise with your nerves - I was there last August, but has been a great decision! Loving it!
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WTH? It's GOT a TUTTLE box.
No front back variables there.
Looks like a pretty darn good setup as a learner board for your size.
I'm in the same scenario, inland lake, very light wind. (less than you are stating). But I'm 210lbs. Decision between the "floater" to make it easy to learn (Slingshot Flyer 280) at 300L or the floatiest "mid" sized board (7-8' 150ish Liter) that I know I'll want very quickly after. Especially as I plan to foil mostly as we won't have enough wind to get on plane.
Get a cheap wind meter, $50 or so. REAL eye opener! Even in Hawaii I was stunned at how much less the wind speed was versus our perception.
You can look up your lake and get historical wind measures with avg high speeds, etc. In northern Indiana the MAX speed from May-Sept is 12mph on average. High of 18mph for the year, that in Oct. LOL Pitifully slow. Lookign at windsurf to get bigger sail versus wing and ordering the XL NP Glide wing that people get up at <10mph , but I may still be behind the jetski or riding pontoon wake more than winging. :-X
HI MLB,
It has both Tuttle and track. Quick will definitely want to be able to adjust his mast position. Getting that lined up for your foil setup and your weight is important for easy take offs.
PS: We lived in Chicago way back when and windsurfed in Indiana quite a bit. That was frustrating! I used to skate sail in the parking lots when it wasn't windy enough to get out on our Windsurfing gear. There were a lot of those days. Thinking back on it, those would be great wingsurfing days.
O.K., I'm confused. From any of the pictures I've seen, and from what I've read, the Slingshot Outwit only has a track and does not have a Tuttle box???
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Quick - don't let not having a wing stop you from learning to foil on your new kit. Try get a tow somewhere - boat or wake board cable...
Can sympathise with your nerves - I was there last August, but has been a great decision! Loving it!
Thanks Solent. Appreciate the encouragement. Getting a tow is a good idea as I know of one outfit that offers foiling lessons behind a boat. Only problem is they don't start operating until sometime in May, by which time I hope to have a Wing. Still might go for a quick lesson though as I think it might be helpful.
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WTH? It's GOT a TUTTLE box.
No front back variables there.
Looks like a pretty darn good setup as a learner board for your size.
I'm in the same scenario, inland lake, very light wind. (less than you are stating). But I'm 210lbs. Decision between the "floater" to make it easy to learn (Slingshot Flyer 280) at 300L or the floatiest "mid" sized board (7-8' 150ish Liter) that I know I'll want very quickly after. Especially as I plan to foil mostly as we won't have enough wind to get on plane.
Get a cheap wind meter, $50 or so. REAL eye opener! Even in Hawaii I was stunned at how much less the wind speed was versus our perception.
You can look up your lake and get historical wind measures with avg high speeds, etc. In northern Indiana the MAX speed from May-Sept is 12mph on average. High of 18mph for the year, that in Oct. LOL Pitifully slow. Lookign at windsurf to get bigger sail versus wing and ordering the XL NP Glide wing that people get up at <10mph , but I may still be behind the jetski or riding pontoon wake more than winging. :-X
HI MLB,
It has both Tuttle and track. Quick will definitely want to be able to adjust his mast position. Getting that lined up for your foil setup and your weight is important for easy take offs.
PS: We lived in Chicago way back when and windsurfed in Indiana quite a bit. That was frustrating! I used to skate sail in the parking lots when it wasn't windy enough to get out on our Windsurfing gear. There were a lot of those days. Thinking back on it, those would be great wingsurfing days.
O.K., I'm confused. From any of the pictures I've seen, and from what I've read, the Slingshot Outwit only has a track and does not have a Tuttle box???
Hi Quik,
That is correct. The Outwits have the industry standard two track system. He was referring to the board in your original post which has both tracks and Tuttle.
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WTH? It's GOT a TUTTLE box.
No front back variables there.
Looks like a pretty darn good setup as a learner board for your size.
I'm in the same scenario, inland lake, very light wind. (less than you are stating). But I'm 210lbs. Decision between the "floater" to make it easy to learn (Slingshot Flyer 280) at 300L or the floatiest "mid" sized board (7-8' 150ish Liter) that I know I'll want very quickly after. Especially as I plan to foil mostly as we won't have enough wind to get on plane.
Get a cheap wind meter, $50 or so. REAL eye opener! Even in Hawaii I was stunned at how much less the wind speed was versus our perception.
You can look up your lake and get historical wind measures with avg high speeds, etc. In northern Indiana the MAX speed from May-Sept is 12mph on average. High of 18mph for the year, that in Oct. LOL Pitifully slow. Lookign at windsurf to get bigger sail versus wing and ordering the XL NP Glide wing that people get up at <10mph , but I may still be behind the jetski or riding pontoon wake more than winging. :-X
HI MLB,
It has both Tuttle and track. Quick will definitely want to be able to adjust his mast position. Getting that lined up for your foil setup and your weight is important for easy take offs.
PS: We lived in Chicago way back when and windsurfed in Indiana quite a bit. That was frustrating! I used to skate sail in the parking lots when it wasn't windy enough to get out on our Windsurfing gear. There were a lot of those days. Thinking back on it, those would be great wingsurfing days.
O.K., I'm confused. From any of the pictures I've seen, and from what I've read, the Slingshot Outwit only has a track and does not have a Tuttle box???
Hi Quik,
That is correct. The Outwits have the industry standard two track system. He was referring to the board in your original post which has both tracks and Tuttle.
O.K., got it. That makes sense. Thanks Admin.