Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: winged surfer on February 24, 2020, 01:09:40 PM
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Hello Everyone,
i've found the picture of the new Wing foil by Duotone. The name is ECHO and it will be in size 3,4,5,6 and 7.
From the picture i can't see any remarkable difference regarding the shape or the size of the leading edge but i'm sure they will behave much better than the actual version (less roll).
I can see the battens are now half sized, so maybe also it will pack smaller.
Another interesting thing i've never seen before is that the leash is directly connected on the strap of the board.
i've heard the boom will be in aluminum but thinner and oval and later on there will be the full carbon version.
Anyone has some other infos regarding those wings and some other 2020 gear?
Thanks
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Looks like they settled on the line to pulleys on the middle batten to control the shape of the center section of the wing. I've seen the prototypes here on Maui and everyone says it keeps the wing stable. I haven't tried them. I was going to try a fabric gusset, or baffle, or whatever it would be called to do more or less the same thing, but Junya wanted to buy my 5M, and I knew I'd never get around to it, so opportunity missed. The 3M and 4M seem fine as they are.
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So i guess in this forum nobody is interested in Duotone.. :'(
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So i guess in this forum nobody is interested in Duotone.. :'(
Well, they should get their act together. They obviously don’t give a fukk about current wing owners, look they never have battens in stock.
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So i guess in this forum nobody is interested in Duotone.. :'(
winged surfer, I am interested in Duotone wings. Please get the 6M and 7M, do some runs and report back on how they perform. Be sure to include the cool little trip meter GPS drawings of your runs back and forth like everyone else does.. The lines should look like Z's.
Thanks in advance
-red
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this is a hard one and there's nothing wrong with this wing except from what I see the majority of buyers are going somewhere else and is it the design, quality or price, we never know?
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Duotone have been hard at it releasing 2 new wings . They are now have a super light boom less model , the window was removed to save weight. The Leading edge and overall wing design is much tamer so it can be towed behind you from the hip on downwind runs , so no more rag dolling. This will be available in 3, 4 ,5 & 6m.
They have also redesigned to the boom to be 2 piece and light weight. Currently one boom fits all sizes. Next range one boom up to 5m a second size boom covers 4m-7m oval shaped grip so you have better control. Not sure if the carbon boom will be one or two sizes , have to wait to see what comes out . So plenty of new gear from DT. Boom wing sizes 3 , 4 , 5 , 6, & 7 . Hopefully get one of the Strut demos late next week.
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Duotone have been hard at it releasing 2 new wings . They are now have a super light boom less model , the window was removed to save weight. The Leading edge and overall wing design is much tamer so it can be towed behind you from the hip on downwind runs , so no more rag dolling. This will be available in 3, 4 ,5 & 6m.
That is a great move.
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So i guess in this forum nobody is interested in Duotone.. :'(
As everyone expected, there are a lot of choices now, and most manufacturers are releasing V2 now. Here on Maui the big three are Ozone, Duotone, and F-one. The new Naish stuff looks good. A lot of people ride the Ozone Wasps, which seem quite heavy.
I think the Duotones are an excellent design, but they needed to calm the larger sizes down.
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"As everyone expected, there are a lot of choices now, and most manufacturers are releasing V2 now." agree there is much more competition now, Ullman will introduce a bar wing without battens carbon bar with an infill panel support ...
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https://www.instagram.com/p/B9Zv-HRoaHj/?igshid=1ml5e99ytkrx6
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What is that line in the center??
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Interesting also to see in the other pictures of that profile the boom less version.. any thoughts?
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Swipe to see the Duotone with strut
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9ZUu9ko5Gt/?igshid=1mj64y3j28s1c
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What is that line in the center??
I think the goal for most brands with gen 2 wings is to bring more wing stability and range.
For example, when I ride a windsurf foil and wing-surf foil back to back, the difference in steadyness of the wind is dramatic. The windsurf foil crushes the wing-surf foil. Clearly showing just how primitive these gen 1 wing-surfers are.
The Naish gen 2 shows the industry can get there. Maybe with gen 5 we will surpass the windsurfer.
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I like that they shortened the battens for easier packing, but the boom is still the problem for me. But It looks like maybe the boom section where you grip is shorter than previous models and may collapse to a shorter length overall. What about maybe a 3 piece boom for travel?
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This is a pretty big departure from v1. It is very cool that Duotone is mixing it up so much for season 2. I am interested to see what they did with strut handles on their other design.
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This is a pretty big departure from v1. It is very cool that Duotone is mixing it up so much for season 2. I am interested to see what they did with strut handles on their other design.
You can see the handles. Did you swipe right? Very flat handles.
I think it shows removable half battens.
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Looks over engineered to save the boom design to me. Then again, if they can get the stability and drift of the F1 with the quick direct maneuverability of the boom, it'll be a winner to me. What do you guys think durability will be like with that line running across the canopy?
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This is a pretty big departure from v1. It is very cool that Duotone is mixing it up so much for season 2. I am interested to see what they did with strut handles on their other design.
You can see the handles. Did you swipe right? Very flat handles.
I think it shows removable half battens.
I had missed that. A little hard to see what is going on there but it looks like 3 long fabric handles. No rigid handles yet but it does look like a nice, light minimal design. Hard to tell much about the shaping from these images.
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Boy that white wing looks interesting.
Minimal is right, just a few sections on that leading edge, looks like 8 total, compared to the new Naish which may have like 24 sections.
I hope the Price is minimal also... ;)
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Take a look on that line in the center.. they say it gives impressive rigidity to the profile.
what do you think?
Plus they finally now pack almost the half size!
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https://www.instagram.com/p/B96FPtMHhsJ/?igshid=10f0ei6jdjl2h
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FYI to thos who are wondering. The new Echo wings (with boom) will be arriving in the US in April we are hoping with all of our fingers crossed. The first batch of Wings is almost sold out already. Our most frothy dealers have put in their pre-orders. The Inflatable wing will not be released until the summer with best-case scenario. But with Covid looming anything could happen, some factories have already announced temporary shutdowns that will inevitably delay the arrival of the new foil gear. Any other questions feel free to ask here. I have been recently promoted to Lead on North, Central, and SO America Wing sales for Duotone along with my normal Fanatic SUP/Wing sales position. Looking forward to what the future brings in this exciting new sport. I will be posting a video of the unboxing of the new wing Echo Wing, High Aspect Hydrofoils, and Sky Wing boards asap. Stay tuned. 8)
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Seeing some very positive comments online about this wing.
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River,
Looking forward your videos of the new stuff. Will you post them here or where? Thanks!
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Winged Surfer: I post them on my Youtube channel.
Phils: Yes the new wings will be another evolution forward.
Jimk: Thank You!
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River, i checked your channel.. i've seen so many times your tutorial videos, they are really helpful! thanks!
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https://www.instagram.com/tv/B_paA2liZXt/?igshid=ntroaicj26lq
I guess the IGTV links don’t show up. Anyway, worth a watch. All the details of the ECHO
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Cool video!
Let’s see next week how it behaves in the water!
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Cool video!
Let’s see next week how it behaves in the water!
Do you have one (or more) already? I have a 6m and 4m Echo on order. Just watching him ride that 5m, I know that is the wing brand I want to be on. Just my preference. Some really cool, smooth new transition moves mixed in there. Just watching I can see how much more rigid they are compared to my well used originals. Even when he is on the backwinded side of a 360 the wing doesn’t do the whole flop back into to me thing like mine does. Kinda cool how they can grab the tensioner line for on the fly de power capability (an unplanned benefit).
One other thing. He is on the new Fanatic foil wings. Much higher aspect ratio, much flatter and lower profile (less volume). I would guess these aren’t quite as extreme as something like the GoFoil GL wings, but not far from it either. And he is carving/turning with lots of speed and stability. That is the type of wing I’m anxious to try. Also note that Patrice at Gong has a new set of similar high aspect foil wings coming out (Veloce; thin and flatter as well) that he claims are still very well balanced for great turning/carving behavior for wing foiling. I won’t hesitate to pick up one these puppies in the 1600 sq cm size range (sorry Axis).
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But what the heck do I know!?
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Cool video!
Let’s see next week how it behaves in the water!
Do you have one (or more) already? I have a 6m and 4m Echo on order. Just watching him ride that 5m, I know that is the wing brand I want to be on. Just my preference. Some really cool, smooth new transition moves mixed in there. Just watching I can see how much more rigid they are compared to my well used originals. Even when he is on the backwinded side of a 360 the wing doesn’t do the whole flop back into to me thing like mine does. Kinda cool how they can grab the tensioner line for on the fly de power capability (an unplanned benefit).
One other thing. He is on the new Fanatic foil wings. Much higher aspect ratio, much flatter and lower profile (less volume). I would guess these aren’t quite as extreme as something like the GoFoil GL wings, but not far from it either. And he is carving/turning with lots of speed and stability. That is the type of wing I’m anxious to try. Also note that Patrice at Gong has a new set of similar high aspect foil wings coming out (Veloce; thin and flatter as well) that he claims are still very well balanced for great turning/carving behavior for wing foiling. I won’t hesitate to pick up one these puppies in the 1600 sq cm size range (sorry Axis).
yes i have already the 5mt and next week are delivering the 4 mt and Sky wing 5'0.
i could not try it yet in the water because of the lock down but next week water sport activities will be hopefully allowed.
I only pump it in the garden and yes, it's way more rigid and solid compared to last year model.
regarding the Foils, i use now full carbon Moses 790 front wing which is very stable, i will try for sure the new Fanatic High Aspect but they will not arrive here before end of June and honestly i'm waiting the full carbon (mast too) version which they are working on it.
Anyways Echo is for sure an amazing upgrade from last year model.
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Cool! I’ll be looking forward to hearing more about your experience with the Echo’s
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What is this Duotone? Kane on a strutted wing with window. Swipe to 2nd slide to see it.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_1fIpnDCBf/?igshid=1k2b4d4bois1z
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What is the first wing (light blue /grey /black)?
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the Duotone Strutted is the new Wing called UNIT made for waveriding. I guess they update the new wing with the windows.
here is the description on a leaked document:
A lightweight and simple wing that packs down small, making it perfect for riders who travel and value a straightforward, very stable setup with incredible drifting abilities!
The Unit is a wing that is perfect for waves, downwind and freeride. The team worked hard to create a shape that
is incredibly stable when totally depowered, as when you’re using a wave’s energy and the wing is just flagging behind. One key element is maximum performance and smooth handling, even in strong and gusty conditions.
When depowered, the lightweight construction guarantees a smooth drift, making surfing swell or waves so incredibly easy and comfortable. During floating before take-off, the Unit delivers plenty of power to get you up
on the foil fast. The amazing maneuverability makes jibes, freestyle and cruising in waves absolutely effortless.
An ergonomically shaped strut improves the overall handling and the EVA covered handles offer the best grip and comfort you could possibly wish for. The stiff leading edge, with both a firm Dacron material and an optimized diameter, is the best solution for optimum performance. Due to the clean, tight canopy with great trailing edge/leech tension, the Unit is a really solid construction with lots of power and stability.
The whole setup is designed for super easy rigging: just inflate and go, that’s it. It also packs down small and is perfect for taking on adventures. Don’t let the simplicity fool you though, the performance will impress. Whether you are wave riding, cruising downwind, or just starting your wing journey, the Unit has you covered. Balanced, easy to use, fast to set up and suitable for a wide range of disciplines the Unit is the wing to choose if you want the performance in a small package.
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What is the first wing (light blue /grey /black)?
Ensis
No idea who is behind the brand.
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Ensis comes from the Latin language and means sword. Sword, dorsal fin, fin ... Without Ensis you are lost at sea.
Ensis aims to offer high quality products at a fair price. Long-standing water sports enthusiasts and surf industry designers stand behind the Ensis brand. This know-how is paired with Swiss quality thinking and Switzerland as a development location.
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This video includes footage of both the new Echo wing and the new Sky Wing board.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj3V8WMzckE
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Get out your German-to-English book.. without, you can still see some pretty good detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loop_iwR32U
Jim
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Here's a close visual look at the Echo and how it's set up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCKwYgVG5Ao
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I would be stoked to see some weights for all of this new stuff. It looks like their should be a lot of lighter options now.
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I don't know about the Wings but here are the stats for the three Sky Wing foil boards:
Sizes
SKY Wing 4'8'' 55L 22" / 56 cm 4'8" / 142 cm 2x US Track - 5.79Kg (12.8 lbs)
SKY Wing 5'0'' 75L 24" / 61 cm 5'0" / 152 cm 2x US Track - 6.58Kg (14.5 lbs)
SKY Wing 5'4'' 95L 26" / 66 cm 5'4" / 163 cm 2x US Track - 7.27Kg (16 lbs)
The weight of these boards seems a little on the high side.
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Get out your German-to-English book.. without, you can still see some pretty good detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loop_iwR32U
Jim
You can go to settings, click subtitles German, then play. then settings- subtitles again and click translate and select language. after that I usually turn off the sound, and slow down the video FWIW
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YwG3gGvki8
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I like the looks of that a lot. I'll probably get a 7 when they are available. It looks like the stability issue that bothered me about the larger sizes has been solved. Love the boom.
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The Echo in action -- another great Alan Cadiz video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NBpREEC6l0
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It’s raining and I’m stuck inside, hence the long post :P
So finally got my 6m, 4m and 3.3m Echo’s. I have about 2 hours of total riding time so far on the 6m. That would also make 2 hours of total riding time on any 6m for me excluding a few minutes trying out a 6m F-One Swing. My only reference point has been the original 4 and 5m Duotones and about 90 minutes on a 5.3m Nash S25.
Just as advertised the Echo’s have much stiffer canopy and leach tension over the originals. The funky tension line is easy to deal with and feels invisible while riding (unless my “regrabs” are way off). It pumps me onto the foil faster, generates lots more speed, screams upwind, and luffs way better than the V1 (I still prefer to hold the front of the boom rather than the front handle). I consider the performance similar to the 5.3 m Naish S25 I owned for a brief time (discounting the size difference). Other than the standard handles versus boom preference brooha, there is still a bit more dihedral in the Echo than most wings, though less than the originals. It doesn’t mean diddly for jibing (they all jibe well), but it does make a difference for rolling in a tack. Swinging any lumbering 6m wing over in a tack takes (MORE!) heft compared to those teeny wip-around 4m’s, which I’ve spent 85% of my time riding other than the 5m V1. They just don’t respond as quickly. I spent a fair amount of time just getting used to this big boy, but eventually got a bit more comfortable with it. I could actually get the 6m Echo to go over on my first tries, although it did occasionally need some help to roll quickly enough. The F-One and Naish needed major hand pushing help to roll. Maybe that’s just incompetent me.
The only irritating issue (which I knew going in) is the molded boom end that presses up to the leading edge has a smaller curvature radius than the inflated leading edge (for both the short boom on the 4 and the long boom on the 6). So it bites into the leading edge just a bit. Really Ken? Hey, as long as it doesn’t affect long term durability, no worries. No effect on performance. I won’t call it a real complaint yet, and there are some fixes I can think of. The oval boom is a nice upgrade. The extra dump valve doesn’t seem to be necessary at all, but it’s there, so be it (unless I’m missing something).
The video is all with the 6m, which was really the challenge test for me. The first hour session was 12-23 mph and there was overlap to ride both 4m and 6m. Only spent 20 min on the 4 (a bit underpowered) so not much to say yet other than it felt great and should do just fine in it’s sweet spot. Even with enough overlap I completed the full indulgence and have a 5m Echo coming in a few days (something about being at that age of wanting to check out with more toys and less money….). No interest in the 7m at my 77kg.
If you want an all out luffing wing for surf conditions, or just like the simplicity of handles, by all means stick with the F-One, or the other great handle options. One other minor side note, booms have their minor hassle factor but I hardly notice it. I DO appreciate not having that to add to the inflate/deflate work load. I could inflate/deflate my 10m Airush Ultra faster than that Naish S25....
https://youtu.be/D756yLrYWnY
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As far as i know Ken Winner is someone very attentive to details, so the end of the boom biting the leading edge deforming it cannot be a mistake. In fact someone told me it is designed not to let the boom move and that’s exactly what i noticed compared the first generation: the boom does not move at all!
That’s my personal opinion and experience.
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It is the "one fits for all" politic of the plastic boom end, used for different Leading Edge Diameters with prehaps accepted disadvantages. Furthermore I think the Designers never expected to have to make a 6 or 7 m2 wing. ;)
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If the extra dump valve is near the wing tip, then it’s a carry over from the kites. Some people like to open the tip valve, then roll the kite up from wing tip to wing tip. Not wing tip to center.
Wing tip to center, causes other side to unroll.
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As far as i know Ken Winner is someone very attentive to details, so the end of the boom biting the leading edge deforming it cannot be a mistake. In fact someone told me it is designed not to let the boom move and that’s exactly what i noticed compared the first generation: the boom does not move at all!
That’s my personal opinion and experience.
It certainly does lock the boom in even more, and that would make perfect sense, assuming no effect on long term durability. Might have helped if they just mentioned it somewhere in the promo effort if that was in fact the design goal. The radius is a perfect match on the original wings and all I needed to do to keep boom “tight” over time was retie the knots on the boom adaptor retaining lines sewn into the leading edge
It is the "one fits for all" politic of the plastic boom end, used for different Leading Edge Diameters with prehaps accepted disadvantages. Furthermore I think the Designers never expected to have to make a 6 or 7 m2 wing. ;)
True. Just surprised that it occurred with the small boom on the 4m as well. Maybe it was an intentional design change as Winged Surfer mentioned. I’m sure Ken understands leading edge durability a 1000 times better than me!
If the extra dump valve is near the wing tip, then it’s a carry over from the kites. Some people like to open the tip valve, then roll the kite up from wing tip to wing tip. Not wing tip to center.
Wing tip to center, causes other side to unroll.
Its actually near the boom location so no real benefit to one way roll up. Again, maybe I’m missing something and it serves another purpose. No biggie, it’s a simple valve and I just leave it closed.
If I find some time I think it would be fun to build up some single piece carbon booms either reusing the current molded ends (I think Ponobill did that) or modifying them,...even though the stock booms work just fine. A way to tinker :)
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Here is the Duotone we’ve been waiting for
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBpPgpRjYCp/?igshid=1ebvaznfz8eok
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Here is the Duotone we’ve been waiting for
That looks great.
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Here is the Duotone we’ve been waiting for
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBpPgpRjYCp/?igshid=1ebvaznfz8eok
Good luck keeping skin on your knuckles with that. I’d also jam my fingers just about every time trying to do a quick regrab. Maybe another 3-5” on the gap and I think it would work
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So I officially have some riding time on the 5 and 4m Echo in addition to the 6m. Same great performance improvements. Nice size overlap without being too close. You could easily do a 7/5 or 6/4 combo. The 6/5/4/3.3 with 3 booms was a total splurge for me.
I really like the idea of just rigging 2 wings for most sessions since our wind is usually all over the place. Just grab the one that works best and go. Maybe a sandbag and UV cover to use with the spare.
All the sizes have this leading edge squeeze caused by the boom front end adapter. Not as bad with the 4m. I’ve already gotten used to it and figure it’ll be a non-issue. We’ll see
https://youtu.be/sf2rrPIDJtE
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Hey Dave, will the original Duotone booms work with the new Echo wings or do you have to buy the new booms too?
Are the new booms shorter thus make it easier to pack ?
Thanks
Don
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Hey Dave, will the original Duotone booms work with the new Echo wings or do you have to buy the new booms too?
Are the new booms shorter thus make it easier to pack ?
Thanks
Don
The old boom does fit. Pack up is smaller for the wing. Smaller bag, shorter battens. Boom you still treat like your SUP paddles. Just throw in the car separately.
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Hey Dave, will the original Duotone booms work with the new Echo wings or do you have to buy the new booms too?
Are the new booms shorter thus make it easier to pack ?
Thanks
Don
Only the 6&7 m2 Echo needs the new 2020 longer boom (141-201 cm).
The shorter one (115-175 cm) fits on all DT Wings 5/4/3.3/3.0 etc. m2.
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I hear rumor that there will be a carbon boom offered at some point. What I’d really like to do as a project is make small carbon fixed boom with front end adapter, and then have fixed extensions for larger wing sizes. The only reason for that would be air travel which won’t be happening soon,.....and to have that make more sense I’d guess I’d need to see where these inflatable boards are headed. Mostly wishful thinking.
One of my 3 booms is the old round version. Everything fits the same including the wing tension line. My custom GoPro Max extension piece only fits the old boom :P
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Great little review OBXDave!
I agree with you on many points here and should only add that I am sure they didn't want to increase the price even more which they would have had to in order to make new boom end tools which are quite expensive.
I am loving the new stuff and soon we will have the UNIT which I believe will rival any inflatable center strut wing on the market:)
It’s raining and I’m stuck inside, hence the long post :P
So finally got my 6m, 4m and 3.3m Echo’s. I have about 2 hours of total riding time so far on the 6m. That would also make 2 hours of total riding time on any 6m for me excluding a few minutes trying out a 6m F-One Swing. My only reference point has been the original 4 and 5m Duotones and about 90 minutes on a 5.3m Nash S25.
Just as advertised the Echo’s have much stiffer canopy and leach tension over the originals. The funky tension line is easy to deal with and feels invisible while riding (unless my “regrabs” are way off). It pumps me onto the foil faster, generates lots more speed, screams upwind, and luffs way better than the V1 (I still prefer to hold the front of the boom rather than the front handle). I consider the performance similar to the 5.3 m Naish S25 I owned for a brief time (discounting the size difference). Other than the standard handles versus boom preference brooha, there is still a bit more dihedral in the Echo than most wings, though less than the originals. It doesn’t mean diddly for jibing (they all jibe well), but it does make a difference for rolling in a tack. Swinging any lumbering 6m wing over in a tack takes (MORE!) heft compared to those teeny wip-around 4m’s, which I’ve spent 85% of my time riding other than the 5m V1. They just don’t respond as quickly. I spent a fair amount of time just getting used to this big boy, but eventually got a bit more comfortable with it. I could actually get the 6m Echo to go over on my first tries, although it did occasionally need some help to roll quickly enough. The F-One and Naish needed major hand pushing help to roll. Maybe that’s just incompetent me.
The only irritating issue (which I knew going in) is the molded boom end that presses up to the leading edge has a smaller curvature radius than the inflated leading edge (for both the short boom on the 4 and the long boom on the 6). So it bites into the leading edge just a bit. Really Ken? Hey, as long as it doesn’t affect long term durability, no worries. No effect on performance. I won’t call it a real complaint yet, and there are some fixes I can think of. The oval boom is a nice upgrade. The extra dump valve doesn’t seem to be necessary at all, but it’s there, so be it (unless I’m missing something).
The video is all with the 6m, which was really the challenge test for me. The first hour session was 12-23 mph and there was overlap to ride both 4m and 6m. Only spent 20 min on the 4 (a bit underpowered) so not much to say yet other than it felt great and should do just fine in it’s sweet spot. Even with enough overlap I completed the full indulgence and have a 5m Echo coming in a few days (something about being at that age of wanting to check out with more toys and less money….). No interest in the 7m at my 77kg.
If you want an all out luffing wing for surf conditions, or just like the simplicity of handles, by all means stick with the F-One, or the other great handle options. One other minor side note, booms have their minor hassle factor but I hardly notice it. I DO appreciate not having that to add to the inflate/deflate work load. I could inflate/deflate my 10m Airush Ultra faster than that Naish S25....
https://youtu.be/D756yLrYWnY
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I hear rumor that there will be a carbon boom offered at some point. What I’d really like to do as a project is make small carbon fixed boom with front end adapter, and then have fixed extensions for larger wing sizes. The only reason for that would be air travel which won’t be happening soon,.....and to have that make more sense I’d guess I’d need to see where these inflatable boards are headed. Mostly wishful thinking.
One of my 3 booms is the old round version. Everything fits the same including the wing tension line. My custom GoPro Max extension piece only fits the old boom :P
It's easy to make a carbon boom from an existing Duotone boom, and not very expensive. I think I did a post on my methods--I did both adjustable and fixed length versions. The trick is to buy a KeNalu paddle shaft, which has a substantial taper from the blade end to the handle. KeNalu sells all the components of their paddles separately. The blade end fits the boom front with minimal shimming (yes, of course I used aluminum tape and hot glue) and the boom end may or may not require shimming, depending on where you cut the shaft. You drill out the rivets to get the boom ends from the stock shaft and just hot glue them onto the KeNalu shaft. You can even re-use the shaft for your paddle with just a few minutes of heat gun fiddling.
For my adjustable versions, I used straight carbon tubing telescoped inside the KeNalu shaft, cut so that it would fit a 3M wing. Then I made spacers from offcuts of KeNalu shafts to fit the longer sizes.
The last one I made used a full-length KeNalu shaft with a slider made from a short section of PVC pipe. The slider was sized so it could slip forward enough to accommodate the 3M wing. The wing attached directly to a loop on the slider and a line from the boom end to the slider adjusted outhaul. In the shorter sizes, this left a somewhat awkward-looking long tail of carbon boom sticking out, but it would be a great camera mount and doesn't affect wing performance at all. the fixed shaft versions weighed about a third of the standard boom weight.
It helped me that I had quite a collection of offcuts and broken shafts from KeNalu paddles that remain from when I was one of the founders of KeNalu. I sold my interest long ago and my bits and pieces collection is drying up.
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Oddly enough this popped up on Facebook this morning--looks like it was exactly one year ago that i did this. (https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65438862_10156585522798668_740481872550690816_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=vJOLN2G4rkwAX_DFmgX&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=168b70bdfc2e7f9f9714db694721ebba&oe=5F1C9E63)
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I think if anyone is willing to buy a boom for each size, then swap out a fixed length carbon tube, it could work quite well without any length adjustment. Particularly when you consider the Echo has the depower/speed bar built in. You do have to slip the tubing over that line. It does not come with the tube.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50044794111_4aebafee4c.jpg)
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The fixed length with a slider for the outhaul was the version I liked best. It would be easy to do with the new wings. Adding a loop for the power line would be easy since it's in the same place for all the wings.
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Happy Independence Day!
I just got a bunch of new stuff to play with, these are my first impressions:
https://youtu.be/aly5s5d4YVc
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Today's light wind session using the 6M Echo and same gear as in the video above.
https://youtu.be/PprmrIJ-59E
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New board looks great Robert. What are the details on that one?
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Today's light wind session using the 6M Echo and same gear as in the video above.
https://youtu.be/PprmrIJ-59E
Looks like the wing luffs really nice just gripping the front handle! I still do a front-boom grip just because I can repower the wing a lot faster. Are you getting more used to not catching the tip on the 6m? I’ve gotten better at it, but as soon as I go from a few sessions on the 4m back to the 6m, I need 10 min to “reaclimate”! Are you using a GoPro 8 or Max on that Tracer mount? I’m surprised it’s not horizon tilt correcting....
My legs would burn up in about 10 min if I didn’t switch my stance frequently :P
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Today's light wind session using the 6M Echo and same gear as in the video above.
https://youtu.be/PprmrIJ-59E
Looks like the wing luffs really nice just gripping the front handle! I still do a front-boom grip just because I can repower the wing a lot faster. Are you getting more used to not catching the tip on the 6m? I’ve gotten better at it, but as soon as I go from a few sessions on the 4m back to the 6m, I need 10 min to “reaclimate”! Are you using a GoPro 8 or Max on that Tracer mount? I’m surprised it’s not horizon tilt correcting....
My legs would burn up in about 10 min if I didn’t switch my stance frequently :P
Thanks. The tip still catches but I have learned to deal with it, I wish it had a bit less wingspan. I used a Hero 7 which does not correct the horizon. I have a gopro max coming soon so future videos should not have this issue. My back foot is pretty far back so my weight is equally balanced over the foil, that way my back leg does not have to work harder than the front leg, my stance is pretty straight and relaxed when I'm foiling so it's not an issue.
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New board looks great Robert. What are the details on that one?
It's a prototype 5'4 x 25 x 4.3", around 95L if I remember correctly.
Now that I'm getting better, I usually lift off the water at sub-planing speeds, so I find that all the hard edges found on many boards are not necessary on a wing foil board, it's more about being able to pump up onto the foil at low speeds and the board releasing easily, not sticking to the water. The extra rocker and rounded rails work great for increasing the angle of attack and releasing off the water smoothly. In my experience boards with concaves and hard rails seem to create suction and need more speed to lift off the water and are also not as forgiving when touching down at high speeds, especially in the nose of the board.
For more details on the shape:
https://youtu.be/aly5s5d4YVc?t=398
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https://youtu.be/ZFQOdLsuWUk
https://youtu.be/rVtV5QZPEIk
https://youtu.be/JPhfljwUfKA
The boom stiffness with this upgrade.....stiffer than the old boom. Stiffer than the new boom in the short body. A hair less stiff than the new boom in the long body.
Dealers should be screaming for this upgrade from the factory ;D ;D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50087164692_5845ae3c1d_c.jpg)
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Nice! How does the boom diameter with the boom grip compare to the factory. I realize the factory is oval, just trying to get a ball park idea. Also how much weight we’re you able to shed with the new boom? Did you mention where you sourced to carbon tube from?
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Nice! How does the boom diameter with the boom grip compare to the factory. I realize the factory is oval, just trying to get a ball park idea. Also how much weight we’re you able to shed with the new boom? Did you mention where you sourced to carbon tube from?
Hum.... should I tell you or make you watch it again ;D
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Nice upgrade DW, I'm sure the lighter weight feels good on light wind days. I hope Duotone will offer a carbon boom option soon.
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Nice! How does the boom diameter with the boom grip compare to the factory. I realize the factory is oval, just trying to get a ball park idea. Also how much weight we’re you able to shed with the new boom? Did you mention where you sourced to carbon tube from?
Carbon Tube here:
https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/45355
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Fantastic "How To" video but man that is a lot of work.
Maybe not for somebody who is used to building boards. But you have to buy 1 sacrificial boom, 1 Carbon Boom then go at it. . . .
I'm with Robert - I hope they sell a Carbon Boom soon.
PS: This reminds me of when I try to get people to build a copy of my bike rack from Scratch. Jeff Clark looks at my rack and says "Yeah you have more cost in that rack (in hours) than the whole electric bike cost you."
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Nice! How does the boom diameter with the boom grip compare to the factory. I realize the factory is oval, just trying to get a ball park idea. Also how much weight we’re you able to shed with the new boom? Did you mention where you sourced to carbon tube from?
Hum.... should I tell you or make you watch it again ;D
That’s exactly what my wife would say! No breaks for us Ole senile types........
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They are not releasing a fixed length ultra light carbon boom. This I know.
Don’t know if an adjustable carbon is coming, didn’t ask, don’t care. It would be heavier and cost more, for little gain. Fixed is just lighter.
BTW, just made a few more booms. It takes about an hour. Pretty easy and fast once you know how to do it. And now you know how ;D
It costs $130 for the aluminum, plus $130 for the carbon, plus $21 for boom grip. All in $281.
Have you seen carbon windsurf boom prices. $880...What do you think a Duotone adjustable will cost. $400 minimum is my guess. To save less than half a pound! Hum...
If I stir up enough shit, maybe they will change their minds ;D
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Here is an idea:
1) Buy the Carbon Boom
2) Fabricate a head, or figure out some Alternative (save $130), & reduce the tear-down and re-build time
3) Still drive Duo-tone Crazy
PS - The tail piece is nothing special. Should be easy to just build some alternate cleat mechanism.
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Wow Dwight you are so good!!
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Here is an idea:
1) Buy the Carbon Boom
2) Fabricate a head, or figure out some Alternative (save $130), & reduce the tear-down and re-build time
3) Still drive Duo-tone Crazy
PS - The tail piece is nothing special. Should be easy to just build some alternate cleat mechanism.
I'm with Beasho. DW, I'm sure you could fabricate a lighter/ stronger/ better boom head using foam and carbon for less than $130. I would do that if I had the time but I'm too busy wingfoiling, haha. This sounds like a perfect project for PonoBill!
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I actually did build my own boom head last year when the V1 was released. Then I threw it in the trash and used the Duotone head. It looked like crap and was way too much work. I knew I wasn’t going to build 4 boom heads. I’ll just buy them.
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I actually did build my own boom head last year when the V1 was released. Then I threw it in the trash and used the Duotone head. It looked like crap and was way too much work. I knew I wasn’t going to build 4 boom heads. I’ll just buy them.
That makes sense, just replacing the tube is enough of a project.
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https://youtu.be/Srq8TpyyICM
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Yeah, I made an aluminum boom head. Took two hours. Not doing that again. Crazy light and very strong, but no.
You guys are making this way too hard. I've made lots of carbon booms for Duotones. It's simple. Drill the rivets out of the Duotone boom and remove the front and rear adapters. Find something to do with aluminum shaft--it makes a nice broom handle. Get a KeNalu paddle shaft--any kind will work, but the Elite 3K 100 is the lightest--they are tapered, 1.250" on the big end, 1" on the small end. The big end fits into the duotone front boom end. It's a little loose, so you wrap a few turns of aluminum tape until the fit is snug. Then hot glue the boom end in place. The small end fits into the small end of the KeNalu shaft with perhaps a few turns of aluminum tape to get a snug fit. Hot glue in place. You now have a carbon boom that is about 68" long (172cm), which is fine for the 5M wing. For the 6 and 7M you'll need an extension piece which you can make from .95" carbon tube. The first 6" of the KeNalu shaft is not tapered on the handle end, which makes the extension fit well. Alternately you can get a 100 Flex Long which is 67". With the boom ends added that's about 70" which is a little short of 201cm (79") of the 7M duotone but probably works for the 6M without an extension.
If you've got an old Ke Nalu paddle sitting around collecting dust, you're in biz. It's hot glued together. Take it apart with a heat gun and you don't need to buy anything.
To make it adjustable you add an outhaul. Either get all fancy and use the racing outhaul that Chinook sells, or just take a piece of spectra line, add a loop where the clew of the wing is so it won't pull away from the boom, and use the bight end to adjust the length as tightly as you like. Yes, you'll have a long tail of carbon sticking out when you use your 2M, but it weighs nothing, makes a good place to stick a GoPro, and won't bother you in any way other than aesthetics.
I've gone through the steps of making a set of extensions to make a carbon boom that fits every Duotone. I won't do it again, it's silly, adds weight, add pieces that get lost or lose their labels. Keep it simple--it's the lightest, strongest, simplest duotone boom. It literally takes less than 15 minutes to make if you have the parts ready to go.
The mandrel formed, tapered KeNalu shaft is much stronger and just as light as straight tube, and has a textured finish from the manufacturing process that gives a good grip without adding heavy grip tape.
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I have a scrap Kenalu, and looked hard at their shafts last year.
$212 for Kenalu, versus $130 for the one I used, and mine is more durable (thicker wall) and stiffer. I took my time and researched before I jumped in.
The Echo also has a lot of leverage on the boom head. Last years wing did not have any.
The current Echo booms actually have a bow in them from the leverage. The connect needs to be done solid.
I thought about skipping the boom grip, but then windsurfers have been chasing weight for 40 years and they always choose boom grip. A bit like the deck pad debate on boards.
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xTuf(s) is $147 if the cost means that much. The Uni carbon would actually make a better boom, though it gets weakened more by scratches and dings. The primary benefits of using a paddle shaft is taper and where they are reinforced. Unless the KeNalu shafts have changed considerably (I don't think so) they are reinforced at the big end with extra wraps of carbon for about 6 inches and on the small end the taper ends 6 inches from the end. That's to make the handle fit well even if you shorten the shaft, but it serves a secondary benefit of making any extension stronger with better contact area. If I were manufacturing a carbon boom I might make the shaft thicker, but this is a fairly ideal part for adapting. I bought a lot of carbon tubing, played around with it, and settled on simple.
The primary leverage on the boom is from the rider. The echo boom stresses the boom in the opposite direction of the rider weight. If anything, this is an advantage--essentially supporting the boom in the middle against rider weight. The primary force on the big end boom adapter is compression. I tested the first boom I made with a static force of 250 pounds in the middle with the ends supported. It's possible that the dynamic loads could be more, but none of the booms I've made have broken or had noticeable deflection under load.
I did check the deflection of one boom end that I modified by doing some swiss cheese holes anywhere that I thought it had material that wasn't doing much. Ken Winner contacted me and said I was making a mistake doing that because the boom end takes a lot of compressive load. He was right, of course, the boom end was distorting a bit but it wasn't anything I could feel in actual use, and that boom is still in service getting pounded in Maui by Art Wible.
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I know that the discussion internally is that the Carbon booms have to be strong enough to handle a 7m with a heavier guy riding in strong wind conditions. By the time you make it strong enough, the weight will be the same as the current aluminum boom and the time and money spent may be a wash, worst case is you break it then it hurts you or punctures to wing! If you love DIY go for it otherwise buy the boom which is very reasonable price and spend your time out there riding or chasing the wind or talking story on the beach (with your mask on please). The Echo has so much leech pressure that DIY boom making will have to be significantly strong than for the V1 foil wing. Some people have questioned the huge amount of leech pressure but that is what gives the Echo the awesome bottom end power (I got this info straight from Ken Winner btw). 8)
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The new mast is a pretty nice part, but it's damned heavy. I took one apart today to make a carbon boom for a friend. I can see the point for 6 and 7M, if for no other reason that 210cm (nearly 7 feet) for the 7M boom is a very long span. Then again, the last time I saw an aluminum boom on a windsurfer was probably sometime in the 90's. I know they still make them, but I don't know who buys them. Certainly none of the geezer windsurfers I know.
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Awesome. Klaas Voget. So many sick moves and I have never seen him switch his feet.
https://www.facebook.com/klaasvoget/videos/2755337538037462
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PS: Pretty interesting what he has to say about pairing smaller foils (looks like he is riding the 1250) with longer fuselages and loving them in the turns. I see that he (and Fanatic) are suggesting their 80 cm fuselage with these newer wings. That is 4 cm longer than even the Axis Standard. My recent journey to ultra short sent me back to short really quickly with smaller wings and now I am wondering if standard may be even better again. I didn't notice any benefit to the Ultra Short.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8Ip_87_QxU
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jacDt6DYeKs
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jacDt6DYeKs
Notice that even though he could readily pump up onto the foil with that beeeeg 7m in those really light winds, he couldn’t complete any of his transitions on the foil. You know it’s not a lack of rider skill in this case. I’ve been out in conditions like that and unless I could time the transition perfectly with a gust AND pump a lot I wouldn’t stay up on foil. This video just convinced my even more that riding my 6m in 10-15 is about as low as I’d go and still have fun with transitions ON the foil. If it’s on the light side of that 10-15 then it’s kitefoil time. No interest in that 7m at all!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jacDt6DYeKs
Notice that even though he could readily pump up onto the foil with that beeeeg 7m in those really light winds, he couldn’t complete any of his transitions on the foil. You know it’s not a lack of rider skill in this case. I’ve been out in conditions like that and unless I could time the transition perfectly with a gust AND pump a lot I wouldn’t stay up on foil. This video just convinced my even more that riding my 6m in 10-15 is about as low as I’d go and still have fun with transitions ON the foil. If it’s on the light side of that 10-15 then it’s kitefoil time. No interest in that 7m at all!
100% agree! And also video shows him only one tack - probably his strong side. I have 6m swing and can fly in 8-9 mph with m280 front wing but no luck with transitions. Also pumping on the foil in those light winds with my wrong foot forward seems to be an undertaking.
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Gz, you might try the GL240 for light wind, it's got all the lift of the 280 with a lot less drag and it pumps really well with the pedestal tail. I hated it, but I didn't give it the time I should have. I was in the middle of transitioning to the Axis foils because I like the fuselage attachments, so I was impatient with getting used to the 240. For that matter, Alex told me to ditch the 240 and get a 210 which made me even more disappointed with the wing, but that was for surfing, not winging. I suspect now that I'm used to the characteristics of the Axis 1150, which is very similar, that I'd like the 240 just fine.
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Bill, gl240 has been picking my interest recently. I went out yesterday with 210 in 11-14 mph winds and 6m swing and the initial lift is less than the old wings but it’s so awesome once flying, so efficient and fun. I definitely think of switching/adding gls to mu quiver. The only limiting factor for me yesterday was the old maliko tail, once I hit 17mph that tail becomes like unbalanced tires on the car ;D. But yeah 210 ruled my world yesterday, but when wind lulled to about 10 that was it - I didn’t have enough to get going. So 240 might be the ticket.
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the GL240 has a lot more lift, including early lift. It rides like similar to the whole GL line, but I wouldn't use it in waves. Tried a few times and it was a real dog turning. On flatwater pumping it goes really well though
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jacDt6DYeKs
Notice that even though he could readily pump up onto the foil with that beeeeg 7m in those really light winds, he couldn’t complete any of his transitions on the foil. You know it’s not a lack of rider skill in this case. I’ve been out in conditions like that and unless I could time the transition perfectly with a gust AND pump a lot I wouldn’t stay up on foil. This video just convinced my even more that riding my 6m in 10-15 is about as low as I’d go and still have fun with transitions ON the foil. If it’s on the light side of that 10-15 then it’s kitefoil time. No interest in that 7m at all!
Actually I think it was rider skill and possibly his foil that was preventing him from foiling out of those transitions in the video. I had my best light wind session yet last night on my 7m Echo, 5'4" 110 L and the Axis 1150. I'm about 245 lbs. Was able to just glide along for 2 hours with no issue foiling through transitions. It was like this crazy glidey, slow motion session with butter smooth transitions. Once the 1150 gets going it just wants to keep going not matter how light the wind is. I'd say it was blowing 10-15 mph. My buddy Craig was kitefoiling on his 18m R1V2 race kite. The 7m Echo is a hands down winner for a rider my size. So powerful. Even pulled off my first two duck gybe attempts. The 7m Echo is glorious.
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New unboxing video on the Unit. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/6YUCqUcGSCU (https://youtu.be/6YUCqUcGSCU)
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Bill, gl240 has been picking my interest recently. I went out yesterday with 210 in 11-14 mph winds and 6m swing and the initial lift is less than the old wings but it’s so awesome once flying, so efficient and fun. I definitely think of switching/adding gls to mu quiver. The only limiting factor for me yesterday was the old maliko tail, once I hit 17mph that tail becomes like unbalanced tires on the car ;D. But yeah 210 ruled my world yesterday, but when wind lulled to about 10 that was it - I didn’t have enough to get going. So 240 might be the ticket.
Yeah, get rid of that tail and go for a pedestal.
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New unboxing video on the Unit. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/6YUCqUcGSCU (https://youtu.be/6YUCqUcGSCU)
Great video Dan, thanks for posting. I bought the 6m and your deflating/packing instruction was very helpful.
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Nice user review of both the 7 metre Echo and the 5 metre Unit in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpGV4hBESbw&t=11s
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does anyone know if the Echo 7m requires the little extension line for the draft control line when using the longer boom?
I understand that's the only boom that works for the 7m, so likely wouldn't be required. but can't find a way to confirm that.
thanks
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does anyone know if the Echo 7m requires the little extension line for the draft control line when using the longer boom?
I understand that's the only boom that works for the 7m, so likely wouldn't be required. but can't find a way to confirm that.
thanks
You do not need the extension pigtail line fitness draft control rope with the 6 or 7m the line is already setup perfectly for the long boom as that is the Only boom it works with. The extension is provided a with the 4 or 5m only and you only use it when rigging with the Long boom, don't not use it when rigging with short boom. (Comment from Dan G. copied from another source)
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does anyone know if the Echo 7m requires the little extension line for the draft control line when using the longer boom?
I understand that's the only boom that works for the 7m, so likely wouldn't be required. but can't find a way to confirm that.
thanks
You do not need the extension pigtail line fitness draft control rope with the 6 or 7m the line is already setup perfectly for the long boom as that is the Only boom it works with. The extension is provided a with the 4 or 5m only and you only use it when rigging with the Long boom, don't not use it when rigging with short boom. (Comment from Dan G. copied from another source)
Great thanks. That's what I figured.
still it seems a bit tight on mine (which I've used for a total of only 1hr). There is a kink in the fabric alone the center batten, and the leech on one side flutters a lot when riding upwind. figured it could be a cause, but maybe just because it's new and needs to bag out & settle a bit.
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does anyone know if the Echo 7m requires the little extension line for the draft control line when using the longer boom?
I understand that's the only boom that works for the 7m, so likely wouldn't be required. but can't find a way to confirm that.
thanks
You do not need the extension pigtail line fitness draft control rope with the 6 or 7m the line is already setup perfectly for the long boom as that is the Only boom it works with. The extension is provided a with the 4 or 5m only and you only use it when rigging with the Long boom, don't not use it when rigging with short boom. (Comment from Dan G. copied from another source)
Great thanks. That's what I figured.
still it seems a bit tight on mine (which I've used for a total of only 1hr). There is a kink in the fabric alone the center batten, and the leech on one side flutters a lot when riding upwind. figured it could be a cause, but maybe just because it's new and needs to bag out & settle a bit.
Sounds like you might need to make the boom a little longer to flatten the profile.
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Any more user impressions of the ECHO? Thoughts on low end of the 5 or 6 compared to other wings you have tried. (not interested in the 7) How is the balance when holding front handle only? Thanks
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Any more user impressions of the ECHO? Thoughts on low end of the 5 or 6 compared to other wings you have tried. (not interested in the 7) How is the balance when holding front handle only? Thanks
I am completely happy with both my 5 and 6m. I’m glad I have both, and I also would not be interested in the 7m at my weight. The 6m just feels as big as I’d want to have fun with. I have no idea what my official low end is on the 6m since I haven’t used my Kestrel meter at all lately. Guess I need to start doing that.
I still prefer a single hand on the front of the boom versus the handle. The wing is always more stable for me with that grip and I can repower very quickly. Only time I use the front handle is for behind the back tacks, which I’m not indulging in for now to avoid any more finger twisting :o
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I'm a little late to this thread but just having purchased a 6M Echo, I thought I'd give my first impressions.
Other than some homemade wings, the only wings I have used are Naish 4m (V1). Gong wings 5,7. F-one Swings 5,6. BRM 5. Ozone Wasp 4.
Conditions- 10-18 kts, on and off.
Two initial impressions 1) I absolutely love the boom. It makes transitions very easy and balancing forearm workload very nice. and 2) I absolutlely hate the
boom. That damn thing is heavy, especially in light winds. What a stark difference from the F-ones. Also very frustrating is the rear end of the boom wants to sink making dislodging it from the water somewhat of a problem. The fact that the wing wants to turn turtle whenever it lays on the waters surface does not help either.
While in flight I found the Echo to be a little twitchy. In higher gusts it would have a tendency to dive if you positioned it anywhere beyond the depower angle of attack. Im sure this is only a matter of practice and by the end of the session, it was lesss of a problem. The wing sailed well upwind and has a good deal of take-off power. I will soon be fabricating an adjustable carbon boom from an old paddle shaft. I just have to remember where I saw a video or pictures of how that was done. Seems pretty easy. Once thats done, things should get better.
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1) I absolutely love the boom. It makes transitions very easy and balancing forearm workload very nice. and 2) I absolutlely hate the
boom. That damn thing is heavy, especially in light winds. .... I just have to remember where I saw a video or pictures of how that was done. Seems pretty easy. Once thats done, things should get better.
Here was the PonoBill Carbon Conversion
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35221.msg405437.html#msg405437
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DW Carbon Conversion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFQOdLsuWUk&feature=emb_title
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVtV5QZPEIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPhfljwUfKA
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Shimming the carbon tube can be with that heavy chunk of the old boom can be avoided (other than a few wraps of aluminum tape) if you use a KeNalu paddle shaft. It's taper just happens to be perfect for this. Both the front boom end and the rear end fit with minimal shimming. All I do is get them snug with aluminum tape and hot glue the ends in place.
I fiddled a lot with adjustable bits, but determined that a fixed-length with a sliding outhaul made a lot more sense--lighter, stronger, easy to rig, and the extra boom length sticking out the back is no big deal--handy place to mount a gopro.
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1) I absolutely love the boom. It makes transitions very easy and balancing forearm workload very nice. and 2) I absolutlely hate the
boom. That damn thing is heavy, especially in light winds. .... I just have to remember where I saw a video or pictures of how that was done. Seems pretty easy. Once thats done, things should get better.
Here was the PonoBill Carbon Conversion
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35221.msg405437.html#msg405437
Not many Echo owners mention the fact that the rear of the wing will sink under certain conditions (like a windsurf sail under certain conditions) and it's really tough to get the whole wing back on the surface -- can be frustrating and tiring. I have 4 and 6 metre Wasps retrofitted with carbon booms and I prefer them over my 5 metre Echo. There's a video of Allan Cadiz testing a Duotone prototype, which has both a centre strut with a boom attached -- this would solve a number of problems much like my retrofitted Wasps (much tamer when on the water and the centre strut prevents the rear of the wing from sinking). Besides Hot Wings Maui, I haven't seen any commercially available wing with a centre strut along with a solid boom. The Cabrinha V2 comes the closest that I know of with its two long semi-rigid handles.
I'm going to replace my Echo with either a 5 metre Wasp (and use the boom from my 6 metre Wasp since the 5 and 6 both have six handles) or purchase a 5 metre Cabrinha V2.
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... There's a video of Allan Cadiz testing a Duotone prototype, which has both a centre strut with a boom attached -- this would solve a number of problems...
Word on the street is that Duotone is going Alula fabric for their next wing. I'll be waiting a bit more before investing in a new wing.
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... There's a video of Allan Cadiz testing a Duotone prototype, which has both a centre strut with a boom attached -- this would solve a number of problems...
Word on the street is that Duotone is going Alula fabric for their next wing. I'll be waiting a bit more before investing in a new wing.
Winter is about to start where I live so I'll take your advice and wait until spring before making another purchase.
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Hmmm,...twitchy, heavy boom, and sinking tail.
Twitchyness: To me this wing is rock solid through a massive wind range.
Heavy boom: I’m sure the mod to a fixed carbon boom would be nice but I’m not loosing sleep over needing to do this mod right away. Maybe over the winter. As long as there is enough wind to get me up on foil, that same wind holds the wing up nicely (I never use a harness). It would be nice to reduce weight for flinging the wing quickly around on tacks, and schlogging around in very light wind off-foil
The sinking tail: Never spent time thinking about it till it was mentioned here. Guess it never really bothered me. A boom wing is all I ever really use so I guess I’ve gotten OK at dealing with it in the water.
I’ll reiterate a few pluses. I hated the extra inflate/deflate time of the the center strut (and this from someone who’s kiteboarded with 5 strut kites for 20 yrs)
This is mostly freestyle stuff.
Not only is one handed riding easy, you can easily twist (point) the leading edge up and down single handed to deal with gusts. Doubt that would work quite as well with handles.
When it comes to trickier moves like 360’s where the wing is briefly pushing back on you while backwinded you don’t get any slop in the wing response at all. I tried 360’s on my Naish S25,...it was not a pretty site :o
Of course regrabs on upwind transitions are always easier with a boom. I’ve gotten to the point where I do more upwind tacks during a session than I do jibes. The regrab on heel to toeside tacks and behind-the-backs has to be pretty quick, at least for my slow moving brain. I’m just too spastic to pull it off with handles
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SINKING TAIL!
I thought I was the only one. This is a huge problem on my v1 Duotone 5m. Several of the posts above detail different problems, but here is the worst situation:
Before mounting the board, you lay the wing right side up in the water downwind of your board. As you get up, the wind catches the nose of the wing, pushing the nose up while the tail sinks. When this happens, you end up with wing upside down in the water, nose pointed away from you, tail close to you, and the tail underwater. Takes herculean strength to pull it out of the water. But if you don't pull it out in time, the wind will push you and the board overtop of the wing and everything gets royally screwed. If an inflatable center strut fixes this problem, I may have to move away from the boom.
All that said, I do LOVE the boom while underway. The single hand hold to rest, wipe water off face, etc, is awesome.
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Just what I needed. Thanks for the video. Thanks for all the other tips. These "problems" that I noted probably only become more apparent on the 6M Echo. Just the size and weight of the boom relative to the amount of wind a 6 M is used in, I guess. As I said, with practice, the twitchiness went away. I will be definitely making a carbon boom, with a little extra flotation(foam), placed on the very end in a aerodynamic fashion to prevent unwanted tail sink.
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kook windsurfers put these on the clew of their booms.
Oodles of Noodles Foam Pool Swim Noodles, 52 inch (5 Pack) - multicolored https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FT7SJCY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_-iBIFbARWK8K3
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Issues I have with the Duotone Echo:
1) The clew sticks in the water making clearing of the wing difficult when getting started. You kind of just get used to it and involves an extra step/more forethought. It's the price you pay for wanting a wing with a boom.
2) You need to be extra careful with banging the boom on your board. Obviously letting the wing flag out uncontrollably can wreak havoc on your board but also just letting the boom rest on your board can damage it over time.
3) The front flagging handle IMO is too small and narrow. It doesn't allow you to grab it with both hands to switch hands when riding swell/surfing. It also isn't sized appropriately for cold weather riding with gloves.
4) The diameter of the stock boom is too big to ride with thick gloves due to forearm fatigue.
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All wing designs have trade-offs. I have tried many of the handle design wings and simply prefer the boom. Maybe I will prefer even more the prototype Duo previously mentioned if it ever comes to market. That said, I can attest to the durability of the Echo. About a month ago I was out in 6-9' surf in light offshore winds with the 6M Echo. While I was pumping, both the wing and board, back out to catch the next wave, the wind died out and I ran out of gas pumping. I touched down and a few seconds later the wave broke right on top of me. I tried to lift the wing over the waves, but with no wind and the wave size, it wasn't happening. The wing got hammered, but not damaged. However, as you can see by the pictures, the plastic boom head bent and my windsurf uphill leash (which I use as my wing leash) snapped. I easily recovered the wing after the wave as there was no wind and continued to resume foiling. I still use the boom with the bent mast head... no issue. Makes me wonder what amount of wave force hit the wing to cause the boom head to become bent; amazingly, didn't damage the wing itself -- a testament to the construction quality IMO.
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The booms I've made for myself were water--tight and float. I didn't have the bits I used to do that (perfectly sized corks) for other folks, so the booms are just semi-watertight. It's easy to make them fully watertight (take it apart with a heat gun, add corks, reassemble) and that helps flotation a bit. With any wing other than the 7M there is enough boom sticking out the end to add small diameter "pool noodle" style flotation that will keep the clew end above water.
The max length of the boom for the 6/7M Duotone is so long (201cm, 82.6") that even a Ke Nalu 100Flex long shaft (170CM, 67") isn't quite long enough. If I were making one for myself I'd just hot glue a piece of 1" carbon tube into the shaft and make it 210cm fixed length with an adjustable outhaul. anyone that wanted adjust-ability would probably be better off using the standard paddle shaft length and adding the $10 "adjustable part" which is a nice solid clamping device made to glue in place on the Ke Nalu shaft and clamp tightly onto a 1" tube.
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Got around to turning a carbon adjustable paddle shaft into a new boom for a 6m ECHO. A lot easier than I thought it was going to be. Tubing size just needed shimming with aluminum tape. All tubes are sealed so they won’t take on water. I also added a carved and shaped piece of lightweight firm mini -cell to the end of the boom just inside of the rear cord attachment. Took it out for a test today. Boom feels much lighter. Foam piece does not alter flight at all and I did not have the aggravating problem of the boom end sinking. I also put rubber tubing over the canopy tension line. It is very easy to increase tension by just grabbing it along with the boom. I forget where I saw that but it’s a great idea. I only spent 20 minutes on it since the wind cranked up to 25 kts and I stepped down to the 4m. Looking forward to further testing.
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To Give justice to the new Duotone: I was out last week in the early morning on my Duotone 5.0 V2. Gusting to 44 mph.
THIS WING HANDLES RANGE!
I wanted to surf but it was (too) windy so I brought my wing just in case. I was happy there was enough wind that I wasn't going to get skunked or likely have to walk home.
Rigged up and went out. It was an inconsistent 25 to 44 mph. I only have 10 sessions of winging and I wingsurfed for an hour and never once face planted, overfoiled or crashed hard.
1) I was using a harness
2) I could successfully luff the sail with the harness when overpowered
There was one other guy out named Darren. He was much better than I was and stayed to the South by the Harbor wall where the wind was constantly strong. I thought he must have been on a smaller wing but he too was on a 5.0 Ozone. But he said he had been kite-foiling for 7 years and switched over to wingsurfing in the last year.
Thanks to DW for recommending the HARNESS. Thanks to Pono for the DaKine Insanity HOOK recommendation. Just slides out of the way.
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Looking at the other brands my guess is that for 2021 Duotone will use his SLS new lighter and stronger material for their new wings.
What do you think?