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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Keys Sup on February 21, 2020, 05:24:47 PM

Title: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on February 21, 2020, 05:24:47 PM
So after a 3rd time at the cable park felt like I was ready to learn to use the wing. Total failure. 5m Duotone on Naish Nalu 10'6" 153L, with ventral fin, Bayside in 15-18 knots. 5'10" 212 pounds 55 years old. The section of Bay is not protected so a lot of chop. First time trying to kneel and just went straight over on my head. Tried a few more times but no good. I guess my next choice is an Amundson 11'3" with ventral fin but only 170L. I have a Bic Techno 293 to teach beginners on at 31" wide and 205L and a dagger board. I am thinking the Bic is the one. Also have access to a Bic Nova, looks like an aircraft carrier. What wind speed do people learn to handle a 5m? I guess I could use my skateboard but will most likely result in road rash on the wing. Suposed to blow 20-25 tomorrow but now I am thinking to pack windsurfing gear instead of foil board and wing.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: red_tx on February 21, 2020, 05:45:33 PM
I have not had enough wind to wing foil yet, as a result I have been wing skating in the parkinglot and have learned tons.

I would not want to be on the water without the several hours I have wing skating. You learn how to hold the foil in so many ways and are in a position to practice hand changes, tacking and jibing. Another simple and important move is turning the wing from belly side up to back side up(if that makes sense). Its tougher in the water if you have not practiced on the land. I  am glad to have had these skills and moves figured before I get in the water. 

Another thing everyone should know is that you need a base understanding of how to sail in this sport. Knowing how to reach up wind to get back to the truck etc. You need to know how to find the wind, and keep the wing lit up etc. Some of this is almost impossible to explain to folks without actually being on a sailboat with them. So sailing experience goes a far way here from a navigational and logistical standpoint.

I'll follow up after my first wing foil or wing sup session to let you know how my land wing skills were used.
-red
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: supkailua on February 21, 2020, 06:58:41 PM
What is the cable park? Are you being towed by a cable onto the foil? If so that is great foiling practice, but won't help with wing control.

I spent an hour or more handling the wing on land before going out to the water. My first session I never got wet, it was just wing control practice. You should be comfortable powering and depowering the wing, flipping it both directions, jibing, etc. all on land before hitting the water.

Even with that land practice I could not handle the wing in choppy water on a SUP. The largest windsurf board with a dagger board is what I used. It is almost like being on land. You should be going up wind and really feeling the wind in the wing on that board and then move to the most stable foil board you can find.

I felt good on the windsurfing board with dagger and moved to an unstable foil board in high wind and chop and could not even stay on the board on my knees, never mind stand up. A more stable board on a lighter wind day with less chop started to feel good again like the windsurf board, and then I moved into foiling on it.

For a size 5 wing I would say you want gusts of 17 mph to 22 mph. If it is gusting over 22 mph with a 5 wing that is going to be a lot of power in the wing. You are heavier than me so it might be OK. You can always test it on land next to the water. If you are getting blown around on the beach then it is too much wind.

Let me know if any questions.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: flkiter on February 21, 2020, 09:23:29 PM
Your foil sup with the foil attached is going to track way better than a sup with a fin. If you're kneeling then you'll want to be closer to the tail of the board so when your wing pulls, the board will ride flat on the water and so when you stand up, you don't stuff the nose. Don't worry about foiling, you'll have to pump the board or the wing hard to get on foil with the size board you have so just give it a go and get comfortable riding the sup foil board around with the wing. Once you're staying up wind on your knees, then work on staying up wind on your feet and then attempt to foil.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 22, 2020, 04:15:09 AM
Like flakiter says, use your foilboard with foil under it, or the BIC windsurfer with daggerboard down.

Then get some POWER. My heavy friend here, rides a 6m almost all the time. 5m just doesnít work. Itís taken him months. Heís your size and weight. It took him 20-25 with the 6m just to get airborne. Heís finally getting much better in lower winds. There is so much technique to learn and it takes lots of power to learn it for many people.

I wish Naish had included the 7.2m with yesterdays release of the new model. So many people need these bigger sizes.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on February 22, 2020, 05:23:44 AM
The cable park is being towed by a cable. Was using it has step 1, learn to foil, Step 2 learn to wing and Step 3 put it all together.

Thanks Flakiter I will take the foil board and Bic to see which one works.

I keep thinking of getting a 7m and am thrilled Naish is making the 7.2m.

Unfortunately I work 6 days a week so TOW is hard to come by.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on September 22, 2020, 03:35:29 PM
Finally got a chance to get out. 6.0 S25 on Blue Planet 7'6" with Axis 1020. Wind was about 20 knots a little off shore with a shadow on the beach. Learned how to flip the wing and how to rotate to keep waist leash and wing leash in the right places. Felt I was doing something wrong. Wing was mostly over head until I finally started using lower front handle ( middle handle made it too hard to keep wing tip from touching water) but never generated any real speed.
Last ride was probably a beam reach ( highest upwind all day) but coming back I kept only moving downwind. So I learned that the wind direction was wrong for learning, climbing over a guard rail down the large coral rocks into the water sucks even though I windsurf and SUP there and the high tide is great for learning but the walk of shame is more of a swim, walk on coral boulders, swim and finally walk into shore. 
So is this the normal progression or does my wing handling suck?
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 22, 2020, 04:42:43 PM
use these handles. Mark them with something.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-nOeApDcMm/?igshid=19xa63fa81pdl
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: surfcowboy on September 22, 2020, 07:00:26 PM
Man, it took me about 7 1-1.5 hr sessions to get the wing and sailing down and get on foil. Thatís with no real wind experience and a little foil surfing. But my biggest mistake was too much time spent without good wind.  DW is right, wait for good conditions after your first time or two out. Itís just easier to do with enough power. I think I could have been foiling after 4 sessions if Iíd just picked my spot and times better.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Admin on September 23, 2020, 04:15:40 AM
Keys,

I am glad that we were not that critical of ourselves :).  You are doing great.  It takes a while.  I would suggest that you get the harness out of the way for now.  There is already a lot going on and it will only add to that complexity.  You really want to feel where the wing is pulling from to get the handling down.  The harness will get in the way of that.  There is plenty of time to add that back in when you are working on pointing and longer reaches.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on September 23, 2020, 06:07:47 AM
DW thanks for the handle info will mark them. So the front handle is like luffing a sail?
No harness for leaning.
Thanks to know I am progressing.
Each tack out got better and better. The last one I was able to keep the wing tip from touching the water.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on September 23, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
DW thanks for setting me straight on the handles. Went out today and with hands moved back and the wing had power and felt good as long as there was wind. First ride was good coming in more upwind then yesterday. Wind was letting up so kept getting pulled downwind. In the lighter wind had to move hands forward to keep wing from hitting the water. Actually made one jibe. Not pretty but made it.
Had to quite early since Robert at Blue Planet made the deck pad so grippy one knee was getting raw. You would think with as much as I weigh some of it would go to the shins and knees. Might need to wear wetsuit john for cushion.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: bigmtn on September 23, 2020, 03:21:14 PM
knee pads! They'll save you during your beginner stages.  But wetsuit works too! 
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on September 24, 2020, 06:20:32 AM
bigmtn did you use velco knee pads or s,m,l? Velcro seems like the best fit but s,m,l could possible be more comfortable but with a chance of slipping.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: PonoBill on September 24, 2020, 07:11:31 AM
I save my old wetsuits and use the neoprene for projects--tubes of neoprene--even ancient crusty arms, legs and trunks-- are remarkably handy. If I needed knee pads I'd harvest them from my stash.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: bigmtn on September 24, 2020, 10:35:42 AM
I ordered some of these off Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000UVXVZ0?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

But since shipping to Hawaii takes forever, and my knees were already beat up, I used PonoBill's method and cut the sleeves off an old wetsuit top, cut the wrists off, and slid those over the knees. Worked just fine, just needed adjustments after falling.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: surfwingsteve on September 24, 2020, 11:50:08 PM
My philosophy is a little different from some of these more experienced guys. When I say more experience, what I mean is the majority of these guys that get up within the first 10 times either had some foil experience, some kiteboarding experience, or some windsurfing experience. If you do not have foil, wind, or sailing experience, my recommendation is to do just like you were doing on a big 153L board, and get out in low wind and just sail that board around at low speed. You do not need 15+ knot winds unless You are trying to get up on foil. That just ends up being a lot to be thinking about at once . I literally went out half a dozen times in Sub 10kns and just focused on how to hold that wing, find out where my power was, and how to handle the wing, board, and 2 leash mess.  You will definitely lose ground and will have a tough time staying up wind unless you have a big center dagger board. Donít stress about losing ground, focus on lufting the wing, getting power into your wing, and just being comfortable holding it while balancing on the board.  Then you add the foil and some power little by little. You WILL get frustrated, but with some wind time and perseverance you will get it.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: Keys Sup on September 25, 2020, 03:21:25 AM
Surfwingsteve good advice. Learning is hard but not letting it frustrate me. I don't mind walking back upwind and seem to do better each time.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: PonoBill on September 25, 2020, 07:53:15 AM
You can learn to go upwind with the foil in place without getting up on the foil. If you intend to eventually foil I think that's the easiest way to learn. A big SUP with a centerboard will go upwind a little easier, but just a little and any time you spend on the board you're going to be using is time well spent.

Alan Cadiz is certainly the most experienced wingfoil teacher on the planet--he was teaching classes when the only wings available were Duotone prototypes that he got through his neighbor: Ken Winner. Dan Hall and I were among his first students. We were both foil surfing, but had no wing gear and no prospect of getting wings soon. Alan starts people off on a monster windsurfer with a daggerboard, and as soon as the student can go upwind with that, moves them to a foilboard with the foil in place but with no intention of getting up on the foil. Getting your sea legs on a board that moves very differently from a SUP and learning to sail it upwind are critical skills you need to progress.

Alan also has a super-short mast for getting people used to the foil without having them get up too high and be uncontrolled. Overfoiling with a 40CM mast isn't a crash--you just settle back into the water. Axis makes a 45CM mast for that very purpose.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Getting Better
Post by: Keys Sup on September 25, 2020, 12:38:07 PM
Pono I'm going to keep using the foil board with out trying to get on foil to learn. I like that it is helping get the balance of the board figured out. After DW's advice to actually power the wing it was getting easier to go up wind but seemed on the tack back to shore the wind let up causing me to lose my ground. I think with more wind I will have an easier time and progress faster then light wind.

I think the next step when I can stay up wind is to work on standing up. Like water starting a windsurf board, I hope to stand then jump down and try again going the other way. Doing this multiple times till I have it down then time to try and foil!!!

Now just need wind before my season starts and I have to work 6 days a week.
Title: Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
Post by: deja vu on October 01, 2020, 06:33:42 AM
To keep close to the wind when not on foil you can gently pump the wing (slowly pull the wing towards you and then let it out in a circular motion).  This will keep you moving in light wind and help get you home or at least a lot closer.

One issue with this sport are the videos on Youtube (yes, they are very helpful for learning) but the ones showing guys doing amazing things on small boards are misleading.  Most of these guys are; young; athletic, sponsored, wing in great conditions all year, and spend a massive amount of time honing their skills. 

If you think you can just grab a wing and hop on a 30 litre board and go you're probably in for a shock and a great deal of humiliation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCq0rP8bagM
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