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General Category => Technique => Topic started by: StarboardSUPMan on January 24, 2020, 05:25:00 PM

Title: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: StarboardSUPMan on January 24, 2020, 05:25:00 PM
I just got a new board with a 5 fin setup.  It's a 95 Liter Brusurf 8'0".  Smallest board yet for me I'm 180lbs 6'2". 
I have been surfing a thruster setup for the past year and started that way with this board, but decided to try quad today. 
For Quad fins I left in my 4.5" high standard G5 fins in front and put in smaller 3.5" trailing fins. 
The grip felt good no sliding, bottom turns were good.  I had to focus on keeping my rear foot over the tail pad.  However once in a while I would get going too fast and I would feel like the board would lock up and I couldn't turn it.  I'd miss the section where I wanted to turn and have to wait for the board to slow down to become unlocked.  It was a strange feeling but during those moments I felt like I could only hang on and wait it out.  Anyone else experience that or know what to do?  My only thought to solve it was I need my foot back further to control it.  Could it also be I have all 4 fins in the water at the same time where normally I only have 2 fins engaged on a turn? 

Here's a poor quality video of me on a SurfLine cam so you can see I can turn the board with quads just fine most of the time.

https://youtu.be/5xYJlqu0WbI  (https://youtu.be/5xYJlqu0WbI)
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: TallDude on January 24, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
You will get more speed and less drive. I do have speed issues with my quads and trying to figure out how to control it. Generally I like the speed and the skatey feel, but there are times I miss the drive. Put your thruster setup back on and see how different it feels. On my performer long board I hated the thruster set up, but really it with quads. On my old 9' short board I liked the thruster setup, but the quads a little more. My 8'8 L41 is a quad only setup and I love this board.
The rake and foil on the thrusters makes a difference. The trailer fins are typically foiled two sides and the front fins foiled on the outside and flat on the inside. My Rusty quads are 4.5 and 3.5 feel really loose, but the tail of the board is narrow. My L-41 is 4.5 and 4.5 fast but a little tighter. It has a wide tail which adds to the speed and is taking more effort to carve backside.
http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-fins/setups/quads-offer-speed-and-more
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 25, 2020, 04:25:59 AM
http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-fins/setups/quads-offer-speed-and-more

Classic quad speak on that link.  McKee quad placement changes that.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Night Wing on January 25, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
Since the upper Texas coast where I sup surf has basically small waves, all three of my sup boards are setup as 4 fin quad setups. Why? Because with small waves, I need the speed since my sups are between 30"-32" in width and they have large volumes with regards to my small 144 pound weight.

When I was researching fin setups, I came across a Blue Planet video which discusses all fin setups from single fin, twin fins, thruster (all three fins the same length), 2 + 1, 4 fin (quad) and 5 fin which I call 4 + 1 (quad with a small nubster).

The video of it is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaaOWMPAmG0
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: TallDude on January 25, 2020, 10:54:09 AM
http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-fins/setups/quads-offer-speed-and-more

Classic quad speak on that link.  McKee quad placement changes that.
Thanks Dwight. Great info there. A lot to learn about quad setups. http://www.mckeesurf.com/wp/?page_id=267
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: TallDude on January 25, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
Since the upper Texas coast where I sup surf has basically small waves, all three of my sup boards are setup as 4 fin quad setups. Why? Because with small waves, I need the speed since my sups are between 30"-32" in width and they have large volumes with regards to my small 144 pound weight.

When I was researching fin setups, I came across a Blue Planet video which discusses all fin setups from single fin, twin fins, thruster (all three fins the same length), 2 + 1, 4 fin (quad) and 5 fin which I call 4 + 1 (quad with a small nubster).

The video of it is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaaOWMPAmG0
Here's another older but good one from Robert that talks a little about the foils of the fins.
https://youtu.be/CYcOk-mYSj0
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: TallDude on January 25, 2020, 11:12:02 AM
Another good explanation of performance fins. I'm learning something today :D

https://youtu.be/ZnrEnMVhOk0
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on January 25, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Another good explanation of performance fins. I'm learning something today :D

https://youtu.be/ZnrEnMVhOk0
So you're saying I'm doing it wrong? 
(https://i.imgur.com/7IihIB4.jpg?1)
No wonder the dang thing won't turn. :o :D
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: StarboardSUPMan on January 25, 2020, 03:04:29 PM
Lol Iím not that bad with my fins.  6 fins should stiffen that board right up.  I had another session today and had fewer issues.  The waves were cleaner and allowed me to experiment more.  I didnít have any lockup issues that could have been due to the peaky/ choppy waves yesterday. I did get worked over when I went up to the lip and the wave pitched over on me.  Went sideways and got thrown but that is probably more learning, keep my foot back and commit to the turn.  Each day with quad Iím more won over.  Speed and looseness are big benefits.  Thruster will always hold a place in my heart but I think I can maneuver and outrun fast sections better with quads.  Thanks for all the video help really helps understand the fin differences
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Night Wing on January 25, 2020, 03:18:32 PM
As I said before, I normally use a 4 fin quad setup. Basically two, 5" fins and two, 4" fins. But, if I need a 5 fin setup, my nubster fin is 2.25" in height and this is because of my light weight.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Night Wing on January 25, 2020, 03:36:05 PM
I had to go back and find the topic where I can show my 5 fin setup with my 2.25" nubster fin installed on my One World, 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 liters board.

I just hope this picture takes as an attachment since I can't preview it.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on January 25, 2020, 03:38:20 PM
Each day with quad Iím more won over.  Speed and looseness are big benefits.  Thruster will always hold a place in my heart but I think I can maneuver and outrun fast sections better with quads.  Thanks for all the video help really helps understand the fin differences
Yes, and in all seriousness this time :)...when I was still surfing/SUSing, I did eventually gravitate to quads with a tiny nubster since I too was on a shorter, but wide tailed mini-Simmons shaped board as my go to...in the typically mushy conditions of SanO, where trying to squeeze any bit of speed possible was the goal the majority of the time.

Eventually went back to a Pearson/Laird long board where speed was not as much of the essence, and the 2+1 setup I liked better for that board to help keep me going somewhat straighter when trying to get out on the nose (something that I was never really all that good unfortunately :-\)
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: StarboardSUPMan on January 26, 2020, 04:41:58 PM
Update.

I had my board out today in chest high waves and gave the quads another go.  I could turn a bit better and continue to get better each day I have them in.  As the tide dropped I went in for lunch and decided to switch back to thruster for another session. 

This was the first day I was able to try quad and thruster setups back to back, same swell same wave.  The first wave on the thruster and I knew I wasn't getting the performance I was looking for on the quads.  The thrusters had that immediate snap to turn the board.  On the first wave I turned so hard I dumped myself off the board.  My turns were instantly sharper, I was able to really hit the lip and turn back down where as the quads I felt like I got hung up on top of the wave for a moment.  I was throwing more spray and I didn't realize how much I enjoyed pumping the board down the line.  It was like I turned the performance button on in the board.

My board does have a fairly narrow tail.  17.5" wide 12" up from the tail.  Also would be interested in quad fin box placement.  My measurements put my side fix boxes at 17" off the tail and 1.5" in from the rail.  My rear fin boxes are 7" off the tail and 1.5" off the rail.  Finally my center fin box is 7" off the tail.  Here are a few pics of the setup.  Been doing a little glassing had to reinforce the fin boxes.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3A-6KP-eWzvTIIASU5ejMPwt2HjeCY8hknYIbn9_0xELlQb0jci9nVMGcZMvpjyBqM5HQVpbyZUrKsJTq1_K7o2wCDc5iB6PJlmUaCROYp4Vcmm2NwBxGSEH9oSEklUwbmRkdAenwvATwtQCFVvTRNEuoE1osZv-QFPIPPBVRHdX-mIo1PWFzknsO70wOpAjF1Qdk_YC8Mxvi32S2VphKIALbvnyABgRtFFkuLBbziMR592b8ABlBh5IV5oY3wT3H__6Ff0agKVL8p_GaYzjH9g2dLc19tnLNkc0ePaXhRCVaBQCLa-zMcKJg_nKPpLG9XOKDnQ8VfVHLHgMH9WW4p70SxydYtHo1JUALElBTZN_pa_JAUQdczNN11NJEMmV1QC-GcoVkPi8sXC6dkY_IQp0m08gXkfPu7H9haHzc2fk9aFuwSa1NZ_LQqOliJlI3clIpC4Fu5md6dp0BJwwyD_OGc5MSHsYaoTSn2OqVrIJ4PE7re_OtOYmO0fawD1eOeIjawivdVZo6z32xFm07dDqXhUVfGYN5TuE__eKTE9agNe-hO3cwhfQe-JOtB7DWN45m_QP2bSj4bk0GmCvQGzBAE1NB2mgYBiSLTOgmqYAxuuquxcoIppdVpwP2APZ8PKn7UrirJ18HtxVzOWXr55n8c0WRGd1jibr2YH4fwbzrcq9BNTyuA=w2016-h1512-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0vsO3SezaEO4ydxVYKtq32z7qlw16U-bT8te-e-wl9ApOjVQ3Nd528vc5OQnCfLD51zEjSTSYoe45jKCtsIUEBYnI6xgkgLdgP_rVtCri8I5peLvXtCh5rLvkl9K-UEVCYElA-CFV5skbOhBXOEH0t67GRcbwlAiH7Jq67rXdoLXRuoJJJCsC3cjeJYrd23O4tlzjH54__t04Ije9gobSfJwaZ3jVbcRW4yhgqwcK_Cm0Ra0tpiuqsO91pXKUkXgA1vH4iTfwDnP0BSstIK7Ha3rzLk4sW9KsXBzwAfMi9JG4hbWpwJ09zmhuILNaO91nCF8oHUrwiD-HKY0A5tmxis1WyJSysbDdZmqAAFh1q0kbMtywiX9Mqtav49cQvBl6OxtNnY3bCRxKCQ7eH8Wl1P0TMMxRB9sWleKuQTpuLEXdScm6cdA_SfkIGS2ffx-DHcVws6vCzNKUyE3nQMf_qWBn8oKu28AZJt5R7n9lo-Xr32C7tBaGGbiBoLDPO9qaZveBEar8ZME6G-zA92RoxQsB47hsjbYTdaorbkhYcArVsrIFN7Q4M6Lt5n4zic2xlk8S6eS-3Nm9Bghaj9lMHC5VWwNB8QaJ5ktq5zC3B-3XO8rjluimu0BJfTJ8B-nSvZhDOKpoAkhGGnb67hKIPUoDzy4jqwlCCDz73LcgOi7fK3ADjYfxQ=w1398-h1862-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hKbdVz7w-Rne09w3D57BA2RhmNy8v54VdsCC6bwekwHcArl8p0_3vV-qIGd_FtlFEfI8o2ruBZIAJS04W-6c0RO4xR55cbc9qZHbVKNz-K92H-FRnnj2tXxmGNg5WZuBGjO3d52RguJ9Q5VtG3HZmX6FOyu_bm7jZ54SCyGaJXhDgC3uZipGy6JKFLky97hn42aqRMZ3IkyEUS6QLtRYcXWGAJ0_tsGJ2sESWG5qg4RJUF-2AoZWODlfi4FAp-dKOqgEaq1uYWqStpL7iaBRPKdug_9HnJ2_OjrGqK-7L4V9b8P5OPa2m8updNKlC1Y2jj-SR7A4QEHvgTMHGaTL0M146wyShUl-MfXQMHLsjS19i1bl4Be-0g_pTUxmc59z8o-HQoYILBAL-_otiE5k3RYwqnUd0RPwCaY_0lvclSNxD1v8MXvdDae2NXRvmLDGt6t-jTT6WrCr8lpcwr6eAH9b0CR3b6mumprDUsyfpqSJnhN1JUNAVI3p5fhfMXc_46YlDsRU7tIqwE5MqiE7C5XSMXj1SExbNXaJO023zC-1SeXBaoyA9gGBGod3BG-5izCVbEn1kIY522N601eqE0tOlV5X3kBnOeHpK93sZA34CeqVQ312aieW9hv1yiwbZIJMf-PYcbh7aDuLX9UFyzb-MP83PGzXqIvaryftDtbm-ThwnLbh5A=w2016-h1512-no)
I took the last pic to show the size of the rear quads I was using.  I never ran it with 5 fins in it.

I welcome some more quad fin suggestions as well as the possibility of a nubster.  I have a few nubsters kicking around I may try out.  It has been a fun experiment playing with different fins.  One I'd like to continue and keep learning from!  Appreciate all the feedback!
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Night Wing on January 26, 2020, 04:59:25 PM
I welcome some more quad fin suggestions as well as the possibility of a nubster.  I have a few nubsters kicking around I may try out.  It has been a fun experiment playing with different fins.  One I'd like to continue and keep learning from!  Appreciate all the feedback!

If you play around with a nubster fin, they come in different heights. And where you place the nubster in the long single box for a 5 fin setup makes a big difference in how the board performs in conjunction with the type and height of the waves as well as the length of the board along with your physical weight.

If you look at the photo of my orange colored One World with my 2.25" nubster fin attached, notice my nubster is not installed at the far end of the box. Their is a little gap of space between the nubster and the end of the box.

This small space makes a BIG difference in my board. As they say, "sometimes the smallest detail makes the biggest difference".
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: OkiWild on January 26, 2020, 06:21:45 PM
Me on a new board: First set up as a quad "This sucks, it won't even turn." Second out as a thruster "This is way better," and surf it like that for a while. Then start thinking about quad again, switch it out "This board is magic as a quad." LOL

Turns out the problem is usually me getting used to the board.

But different boards are different in their tail shape, and more importantly, the fin placement. First thing I notice about your board is the trailers look to be placed pretty far back. Like farther back than the center box? That's going to make a quad really, really tight. In addition to that, your trailing fins are set back in their tabs.  Inserting  a picture of three of my performance boards, and notice how far forward the trailers are in relation to the center box. 

With the fins like mine, the boards turn almost like a thruster, but won't slide, and actually feels like there's acceleration when on a rail (because there is). The only drawback is that when flat (not really on a rail) and accelerating (like dropping in) in powerful, hollow surf, which is 95% of what we have here, the tail can feel really skatey, which is pretty unnerving. Many people like the nubster or guitar pick center, I like the Mink Systems diffuses (black tabs on the tail). They're all the way at the back, which works well to keep the tail from squirming, especially when there's some chop, and air moving under the board.

My problem with thruster on SUP hasn't been one of speed, but one of "hook." With the wide tail and increased volume when compared to a normal short board, once put hard on a rail, I can feel the board wanting to "cork out," and it's really easy for me to push through the hold of the fins, especially when coming out of the turn and the board is transitioning back to flat. Some people like this sliding feel. I don't, and the quad cured this. One of my Tokoro 6' short boards measures 12" leading edge to leading edge of the forward fins, where my SUP boards measure closer to 17". So in a turn with the thruster on SUP, it ends up feeling more like a twin short board, and the quad brings back to more of what I like.

But again...fin placement is everything, and on some boards, some things aren't going to work.

Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: magentawave on January 26, 2020, 08:42:27 PM
I really liked twins back in the day before thrusters obliterated them and I loved quads on short surfboards but quads on high performance sups for me always feels like I've got too much fin in the back. Great for drivey down the line stuff but too stiff to break a line. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that most shapers put the cluster too far back and/or put too much space between the front quads and the back quads. (Joe Blair seems to get it right though.) So, after trying a million different combo's on my 8-6 round tail, everything clicked when I put big ass 6" MR 78 originals in the front boxes + a nubster in the heel side back box (calms down the pivotyness of the backside turn) + another nubster in the center box. (People always say "you're missing a fin.") That combo made the board feel alive and 3 pounds lighter. I went through the exact same issue on my newly acquired 8-2 RNB using the quads that came with it so I'm trying a similar twin/nubster combo on it. Unfortunately no one makes the big 6" MR 78's any longer so I had to compromise with slightly smaller twins.

P.S. I haven't had this RNB in good surf yet so time will tell if I can make it work the way I'm hoping it will. So far the rails seem too beefy (like Starboard rails), the tomo-ish tail feels too wide and it doesn't have enough rocker.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: StarboardSUPMan on January 28, 2020, 06:41:40 AM
Appreciate all the feedback.  I find it interesting that almost everyone responding seems to prefer some sort of a quad fin setup and there isnít much love for the thruster.  Obviously there is something to this and it looks like I need to keep on tweaking until I find that magic combination.  I did a few lessons with 2 of the starboard proís Zane Schweitzer and Sean Poynter and they both preferred thrusters for predictability and drive.  Having said that Iím nowhere near a pro nor do I have a prayer of doing any sort of airs or blowing the fins out on a turn.   So quad may be the choice it just wasnít as simple as throwing some stock fins in and surfing.  Looks like I need another session where I have all the fin combos and keep swapping them until something clicks.

Night Wing - Yes I agree I need to play around with a nubster rear fin.  There was something I truly enjoyed about quads I just couldnít get it dialed in so this may be the missing piece.  I think Iíve avoided adding a nubster from fear of Ďover finningí with 5 fins in the water.  But looking at how small it is itís worth a shot.

OkiWild - The pic is a little deceiving my rear quad boxes are about 1.5Ē further up towards the nose than my center box, but looking at your boards the rear quad boxes appear to be half way or more up the center fin box.  I know how to glass so I may look into moving the quad rear fin boxes up on the board to loosen things up.  Iíll have to do some investigation and get measurements prior to that project. 
Iíve never even heard of a mink systems diffuses those look pretty wild thanks for sharing that. 
One question back to you about the board corking out with a thruster, do you mean like actually blowing the fins out in a slide?  Are you blowing them out at the top of the wave?  I have yet to be able to do that no matter how hard I push the board.

Magnetawave - My friend has a starboard hyper nut and went to the twin fin and loves it.  Iíve never even attempted twin fins mostly out of fear of spinning out.  Looks like Iíve got to at least try it but need to go with some XL front fins.  My mind canít fully process surfing with one fin in the heel side fin box and not on the other side, but it makes sense like how they build asymmetrical surfboards.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: supthecreek on January 28, 2020, 08:27:12 AM
SSUPman said:
"I find it interesting that almost everyone responding seems to prefer some sort of a quad fin setup and there isnít much love for the thruster"

Thruster fan here.... I much prefer thruster on almost anything  ;D
I find more drive, snappier turns

Lately I am happiest with boards that work well with largish sidebites and small pivot fin in center.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: Night Wing on January 28, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
@ magentawave

Where I sup surf on the upper Texas coast, we don't have large waves. Most of the time our waves are tiny to small waves.

Now I define what we have which are:

Tiny - ankle to knee high
Small - knee to waist high
Medium - waist to chest high
Large - chest to head high
Big - over head high

With a 4 fin quad setup; you gain Speed, but you lose Drive. With a 3 fin thruster setup (2 +1); you gain Drive, but you lose Speed.

For me with my 11'1" board, many times I'm sup surfing in Tiny to Small waves. I need a 4 fin quad setup to give me Speed because these Tiny to Small waves aren't going to give me lots of Drive because these waves are not fast moving.

With a 3 fin thruster setup in these types of waves above, the large 9" fin is going to produce too much "drag" and slow the board down more than if I'm using a 4 fin quad setup. So without the Speed, the board will not have the Drive especially last year with me at 144 pounds riding it.

With Medium to Large waves, the 4 fin quad setup gives my board a lot of Speed, but at the bottom of the wave to make the turn, this fin setup makes the tail end of the board to "skid out" and people call this a "skatey" feeling.

The 5 fin setup (quad + 2.25" nubster) in these types of waves gives me Speed, but at the bottom of these types of waves, the nubster gives me Drive so the tail end of the board does not skid out and allows me to turn the board, either left or right, easily. So for me, in these Medium to Large waves; two 5", two 4" and one 2.25" is the perfect fin sizes for me in a 5 fin setup.

So you have to look at the size of the waves you would "normally" encounter and pick your fin height accordingly for a 5 fin setup.

BTW, since you've seen my 5 fin setup, I found a picture of my board so you can see it's narrow pin tail for an 11'1" board and I hope I can get this message to post without getting timed out.
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: magentawave on January 29, 2020, 12:08:15 PM
@ magentawave

Where I sup surf on the upper Texas coast, we don't have large waves. Most of the time our waves are tiny to small waves.

Now I define what we have which are:

Tiny - ankle to knee high
Small - knee to waist high
Medium - waist to chest high
Large - chest to head high
Big - over head high

With a 4 fin quad setup; you gain Speed, but you lose Drive. With a 3 fin thruster setup (2 +1); you gain Drive, but you lose Speed.

For me with my 11'1" board, many times I'm sup surfing in Tiny to Small waves. I need a 4 fin quad setup to give me Speed because these Tiny to Small waves aren't going to give me lots of Drive because these waves are not fast moving.

With a 3 fin thruster setup in these types of waves above, the large 9" fin is going to produce too much "drag" and slow the board down more than if I'm using a 4 fin quad setup. So without the Speed, the board will not have the Drive especially last year with me at 144 pounds riding it.

With Medium to Large waves, the 4 fin quad setup gives my board a lot of Speed, but at the bottom of the wave to make the turn, this fin setup makes the tail end of the board to "skid out" and people call this a "skatey" feeling.

The 5 fin setup (quad + 2.25" nubster) in these types of waves gives me Speed, but at the bottom of these types of waves, the nubster gives me Drive so the tail end of the board does not skid out and allows me to turn the board, either left or right, easily. So for me, in these Medium to Large waves; two 5", two 4" and one 2.25" is the perfect fin sizes for me in a 5 fin setup.

So you have to look at the size of the waves you would "normally" encounter and pick your fin height accordingly for a 5 fin setup.

BTW, since you've seen my 5 fin setup, I found a picture of my board so you can see it's narrow pin tail for an 11'1" board and I hope I can get this message to post without getting timed out.

Twins shine in the surf you described! So fast. It's amazing how fins completely change the way a board rides (for better or worse). It's worth trying the big twins with little nubster combo's.

If your quad lacks drive then you might try bigger fins, or at least bigger front fins, and maybe pop a small fin in the center box.

I'll take a photo of what I did and post it here...
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: magentawave on January 29, 2020, 12:24:39 PM

Magnetawave - My friend has a starboard hyper nut and went to the twin fin and loves it.  Iíve never even attempted twin fins mostly out of fear of spinning out.  Looks like Iíve got to at least try it but need to go with some XL front fins.  My mind canít fully process surfing with one fin in the heel side fin box and not on the other side, but it makes sense like how they build asymmetrical surfboards.

I can totally understand why a wide tail board like the Hyper Nut would work well with twins. I heard Kelly Slater say in an interview that the center fin on his thrusters is a little shorter than the side fins because he rode a lot of twins when he was a kid and liked them. Twins aren't for everybody though so there's no way I'd go twin in big waves, too pivoty, but dang, it was like night and day the way it transformed my 8-6. (How Mark Richards could rip at BIG Sunset on twins is mind blowing, but then that's Mark Richards.) I hardly ever experimented with fins on shortboard surfboards, but with these sup beasts, even relatively short high performance ones, if it doesn't work the first couple times the way it was configured when I bought it then it's time to experiment. When I get a board with only three boxes I'm kinda relieved in that I don't have as many options. My 9-2 Sunova longboard sup came with three FCS fin plug sets which really narrowed down the options. Fortunately Sunova nailed it so it rides great out of the box as a thruster. Hmmm, having said that, maybe I'll try big twins in it sometime. Damn, there I go again! :-\
Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: OkiWild on January 30, 2020, 06:02:49 AM
[quote author=StarboardSUPMan link=topic=35687.msg411274#msg411274 date=1580222500

One question back to you about the board corking out with a thruster, do you mean like actually blowing the fins out in a slide?  Are you blowing them out at the top of the wave?  I have yet to be able to do that no matter how hard I push the board.

[/quote]

Just in a simple rail cut back. All of the following is just my opinion, but it's based on working really hard, and spending A LOT of money on fins to try and get a SUP to turn the way I like it. I never really cared what fins were in a short board, and was a thruster guy through and through, but found that SUP boards are super sensitive to the fin set up.

After the turn is initiated and the board goes up on the rail, with additional width and volume of a SUP, the single side fin and no real help from the distant center fin, the board has a lot more slip. With that slip, the wider spread between the side and rear fin, and your feet center-ish, it quickly wants to "cork" out of the water, giving the rail less grab, and then wants to flop over to the other rail. Of course I could stand with both feet on the rail and it would probably stay planted, but now it won't rotate over to the opposite rail when I want it to.

So I went out and got some footage  ;D   The following photo series is shot on the same day, same wave. Two different boards, but I've surfed both boards with thruster and quad set up, and the difference between fin set ups behaves the same on both boards. I tried hard to do the same turn at about the same speed, which was right at the max push for the thruster before a serious slip. Of course the shorter/narrower the board, the harder you can push it before it will slip, but on my smallest performance board (8'2"x28"x100L), I can hit the limit with the thruster pretty easy, so have to limit speed and push into and through a turn, but the quad will hold above my ability to slide it.

First series of four pics is thruster with Futures F6 Honeycomb fronts, and a Futures GL2 all the way in the back of the center box. First pic the turn is initiated off the top of the wave, and you can see the wide trough behind the board in a tight arc because the board is turning quickly with some controlled slide. Second pic you can see the board has popped out, sliding, and rotating over to the other rail, my heel still trying to keep it planted, leaving me with hyper-extended knee, and no longer over the board. Third pic the board has stalled in the slide, allowing me to come back on top of it, but still not really in control. Note that the board rotated very quickly. I could really throw it on, and completely slide the tail around, nose facing lip, and some people like to surf this way, but I have messed up knees from decades of this, and now I just want to draw solid lines with flow that never stops. Fourth pic is fully recovered, starting to accelerate and bring the nose around to get back to the shoulder.

Second series on the white board is quad with Futures F6 Alpha fronts, and Futures QD2 4.0 trailers. First pic the turn is initiated off the top of the wave. You can't see the trough because it's behind me, as the board is locked in and not slipping. Also not turning as tight, though the lean angle is the same, with same relative speed and force. Second pic starting to come out of the turn, still on top of the board, still no trough visible, as the board is still planted, and still tracking on the rail with no slide. Knees bent more, and compressing. Third pic the turn is done, I'm still over the board without a sloppy recovery, but the board hasn't stalled, and is still tracking forward. Fourth pic transitioned over to the other rail, and turning for the shoulder again.   

So of course different boards and fin groupings will be different, but that's the main difference I found in the board size/volume I like to ride.

Title: Re: Quad Issues on new board
Post by: StarboardSUPMan on February 12, 2020, 03:55:26 PM
MagentaWave/NightWing - I will have to try some twin fins I've never really experimented with it, I'm interested in what it would do.  That or as it was suggested large front/small back find with a nubster.  I have the fins just need the waves.

Okiwild - thank you for the pictures it makes it a lot easier to understand it.  I'm wondering since my board measures 18" wide at 12" from the tail that maybe being a narrower board I'm not experiencing my center fin sliding out?  I do not feel the board slide like how you describe in a hard turn, but I can see in the pics with your rail sunk the center fin has got to be 1/2 way out of the water.

I did a little more playing around with my thruster setup by moving the center fin slightly forward and found something surprising.  I had the center fin as far back in the fin box as it allowed me to go which was 7.75" from the tail.  I moved the fin up to 8.5" and I was able to turn (pivot) the board much easier.  The next session I moved it to 9" from the tail and again it was even easier to pivot.  I was even able to do a mini reverse on a turn when I really put my weight into it.  The one thing I noticed was less drive when pumping down the line.  Get one thing give up another.  What surprised me the most was how different my board reacted by moving the rear fin forward 1.25".  Really shows if I didn't have an adjustable fin box how different the same board with 2 fin placements could be.

I think on bigger days I might want to go back to having the fin all the way back again, but it's working great in the 2-3' waist high waves we've been getting in Florida.

Here's a video off the Surfline cam and a few GoPro pics of the day.  Nothing too exciting the waves were small.  Had to include my wipeout!

https://youtu.be/QDsxjJoqlpg (https://youtu.be/QDsxjJoqlpg)
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