Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: winged surfer on January 21, 2020, 07:12:01 AM
-
what are you currently using?
i just switched from the 72 cm to the 82 cm but did not try it yet.
is anyone on the 100 cm? what is in general the difference in terms of riding an 80 cm mast and a 100 cm mast?
thanks
-
As you go longer it becomes harder to catch the swell energy because the wing normally rides further down in the water.
I changed from a 90 cm to 72 cm and like the 72 cm better. It is easier to carry on land and in and out of the water. I have less issues worrying about hitting coral. I do feel like I can ride/feel smaller swells with the wing closer to the swell energy. It still gives me enough length to go upwind nicely and to prevent foiling out.
The longer mast gives you more up and down range and could take you over big chop easier.
-
Questions about mast length. I have never foiled, but am interested in it. When using a longer mast, does the foil ride deeper in the water, or does the board fly higher above the water? Or is it both? I'd also like to have an idea of how shallow you can safely ride. I kite in an area that has varying depths and shoals and want to know what I can safely ride over, either with a kite or with a wing. Thanks.
-
In my opinion mostly the board flys higher with a longer mast rather than the foil flys deeper but when going across swells it’s often a bit of both.
-
Mast weight is also a consideration, if aluminum. I only tried the 36in (91cm) mast once in light wind and seemed a bit more challenging to get the board out of the water. Switched to 30in (76cm) and had an easier time with it. Could have been more mental block than reality and is less an issue once on foil. That said, 30in in decent Columbia river chop feels like a good length.
-
Questions about mast length. I have never foiled, but am interested in it. When using a longer mast, does the foil ride deeper in the water, or does the board fly higher above the water? Or is it both? I'd also like to have an idea of how shallow you can safely ride. I kite in an area that has varying depths and shoals and want to know what I can safely ride over, either with a kite or with a wing. Thanks.
Just my own feeble observation. You can go reasonably shallow if you’re willing to put up with a shorter mast. I’ve done quite a bit of Winging in 3 ft deep water with a 65cm mast. Even have a few areas I wing over where I’d have to walk out 50 yards to restart if I ever came off the foil. With shallow water the chop generally doesn’t get too high but if it does go over something like 12” it becomes more challenging with breaching, touchdowns and the foil reacting to the swell. It’s actually good practice for improving your pitch control.
Any shallower than 3 ft requiring something less than 65cm for mast length is just not worth it for me. Note we have a soft bottom where we ride. If your talking rock and or corral I wouldn’t cut it close at all.
When you are first learning it’s nice to have water you can stand in but not so shallow that the foil is bumping off the bottom when you’re plowing along at slow speed . Not always easy to find those sorts of locations with reasonable winds
For kitefoiling, with ok wind and decent skills you can get away with a mast that is a bit longer than the water depth, since you can basically pull yourself right up onto the foil from a water start position. I might be banished from the forum for saying this but don’t overlook kitefoiling either. Winging is awesome but kitefoiling still offers all kinds of thrills you’ll never get from a wing. I’ll have way more fun kitefoiling in 8-12 mph than I ever would trying to wing in those winds. Good luck!
-
Questions about mast length. I have never foiled, but am interested in it. When using a longer mast, does the foil ride deeper in the water, or does the board fly higher above the water? Or is it both? I'd also like to have an idea of how shallow you can safely ride. I kite in an area that has varying depths and shoals and want to know what I can safely ride over, either with a kite or with a wing. Thanks.
Just my own feeble observation. You can go reasonably shallow if you’re willing to put up with a shorter mast. I’ve done quite a bit of Winging in 3 ft deep water with a 65cm mast. Even have a few areas I wing over where I’d have to walk out 50 yards to restart if I ever came off the foil. With shallow water the chop generally doesn’t get too high but if it does go over something like 12” it becomes more challenging with breaching, touchdowns and the foil reacting to the swell. It’s actually good practice for improving your pitch control.
Any shallower than 3 ft requiring something less than 65cm for mast length is just not worth it for me. Note we have a soft bottom where we ride. If your talking rock and or corral I wouldn’t cut it close at all.
When you are first learning it’s nice to have water you can stand in but not so shallow that the foil is bumping off the bottom when you’re plowing along at slow speed . Not always easy to find those sorts of locations with reasonable winds
For kitefoiling, with ok wind and decent skills you can get away with a mast that is a bit longer than the water depth, since you can basically pull yourself right up onto the foil from a water start position. I might be banished from the forum for saying this but don’t overlook kitefoiling either. Winging is awesome but kitefoiling still offers all kinds of thrills you’ll never get from a wing. I’ll have way more fun kitefoiling in 8-12 mph than I ever would trying to wing in those winds. Good luck!
Thanks obxDave! Yes, kite foiling is probably the best "foil entry path" for me right now.
-
As you go longer it becomes harder to catch the swell energy because the wing normally rides further down in the water.
I have been working on maximizing glide last few sessions and am now realizing how true the above statement is. I hadn’t really noticed it in bigger ocean waves, but it really makes a huge difference in small wind swell. I seem to naturally ride at the same height over the water regardless of mast length so will go back to 72 from current 85 unless I expect big swell.
-
Revisiting this conversation. After a year of playing and switching up to Armstrong foils. I'm finding the 72cm (28") mast breaching more frequently than I'd prefer. Surely there is pilot error involved, so I'm wondering what others are recommending these days. Where's the sweet-spot for swell riding, 72/85/100cm (28,33,39 inches)?
-
I’m using the 85 Armstrong mast and my foil NEVER breach.
I love it and even in rough conditions i don’t find the need to have it longer.
-
Revisiting this conversation. After a year of playing and switching up to Armstrong foils. I'm finding the 72cm (28") mast breaching more frequently than I'd prefer. Surely there is pilot error involved, so I'm wondering what others are recommending these days. Where's the sweet-spot for swell riding, 72/85/100cm (28,33,39 inches)?
The 85 is so much nicer for reducing breaching, especially in chop and swell. It also allows you to bank harder without breaching as well. I had the same issue on the 72 and found it frustrating breaching so often but it was also new pilot error. I have a much better sense now of ride height. I'd love to try a 100cm mast, but the 85 is close to the sweet spot, I reckon.
-
I ride the 72cm Armstrong on a 5’4” 95L board. When I tried the 85cm over a couple of days I noticed a couple of unexpected things. Riding higher was the expected and was nice over the ocean chop here on Maui.
1, On my shortish board, the extra weight of the 85 was sinking the back of the board while on the water, I either had to stand much more forward on the board, causing the whole board to be underwater, or move the mast forward almost an inch which changed all the foiling dynamics.
2, The other thing I noticed was that on the rare times when touch-downs happened, the extra length of the 85 caused my short board to hit the water at such a steep angle it pearled and was not able to skip and recover like on the 72. I got thrown over the front of the board at great speed and it hurt!
I went back to the 72.
-
Non-consensus perfection! Everyone has their comfort zones which informs me that I’ll only know by giving it a go for myself.
@Wingnut Ohana - want to sell me the 85?
-
On Armstrong:
I prone foil with a 72cm mast - even in bigger surf I don't breach.
I wing foil with the 85cm mast. I normally ride with the foil close to the surface (its more exhilarating) and every now and then I would lose it (I believe its the rear stabilizer breaching through chop and not the front foil). I found a 95cm mast on Craigslist and got a good deal on it. Wing foiling with this 95cm mast allows me to ride at the same height above the surface I was with the 85cm - but the foil is another 4" underwater/chop. I have never breached with this setup and I'm riding in waves and wind on Oahu. I don't have a problem pumping any of these setup.
On Go Foil:
I prone the 24.5" mast + 3" track adaptor (for a total of 27.5"). In waves over chest high have breached this - and at times it has been frustrating.
I wing with the 29.5" mast + 3" track adaptor (32.5") - and again I occasionally breach this setup (usually in choppier conditions). I just got one of those aluminum 5" tuttle extensions, but haven't tried it out yet. That would get me to 37.5" of mast.
One of the riders at my local break uses the 40" Go Foil mast - and he is still trying to get more height (he is a sponsored Go Foil rider).
Everyone has their own comfort zone - but if you are pushing your limits and find yourself breaching - I would say get a taller mast.
-
On Armstrong as well. I ride the 72 prone and 85CM in most wing sessions.
I'm now leaning towards my 100CM mast (thanks DW) whenever I get deep enough water. I always pair it with a 50CM fuse to liven it up. The 50 fuse allows quick altitude changes and tight turns. It is basically impossible to breach and when you do, it's pretty exciting, as it's typically at the top of a giant swell or other critical circumstance. When you recover from an almost breach going mach 10 down a swell line, that is also an epic feeling!
I hear that there is a 93CM mast coming out from Armie. That might be the ticket for a two mast quiver. 72 and 93.
-
Fascinating discussion of mast length.
I went from 65cm (Project Cedrus carbon) to 75cm (Axis aluminum) to 91 cm (Project Cedrus carbon). My sessions so far focus on chasing small swell (knee high) to huge swell (well overhead) in SF Bay (and occasionally small surf in ocean near HMB & Santa Cruz). I have been asking about how to harness more swell, especially the more common small to moderate-sized swell.
I love the feel of riding high on the 91cm .... but I frequently notice that I have the wings deeper than they could be. In other words, I think that in going from 65 to 75 to 91cm, that I am not riding with board 10 and 26 cm higher, thus, my foil has gone deeper. I do breach less in swell on 91 cm mast than 65 cm mast, for sure.
Some of the comments here suggest that having foil closer to surface captures more swell. This is interesting to me (since I am trying to capture more swell energy). This is almost certainly more relevant on a 18" foot swell than a swell that is 10 feet crest to trough. But, I am intrigued that maybe 91 cm is counter-productive for harnessing swell. Maybe I'll put the 75 back on (or grab an 85cm to experiment with).
I am currently riding Axis red fuse short (68 cm) with 1000 front and 440 rear. (Looking at HPS 980 with 400HA rear and ultrashort black fuse).
-
.........
Some of the comments here suggest that having foil closer to surface captures more swell. This is interesting to me (since I am trying to capture more swell energy). This is almost certainly more relevant on a 18" foot swell than a swell that is 10 feet crest to trough. But, I am intrigued that maybe 91 cm is counter-productive for harnessing swell. Maybe I'll put the 75 back on (or grab an 85cm to experiment with).
.........
In the small stuff, the depth of foil makes a MASSIVE difference in glide. Just play with it and you will see. I accept the occasional ventilation as the price to pay for riding high to capture that energy.
-
Some of the comments here suggest that having foil closer to surface captures more swell.
As Phil, said….definitely more energy picked up with foil running shallow.
I have 76, 86, 96 masts. Ask yourself what your face plant tolerance is. Mine is 86cm for everyday winging. The right combo of surfy, without crashing too much. And don’t forget shorter redirects quicker.
-
I have ridden everything from 15"(redonk) to 105cm. I am with Dwight on the 86 Axis carbon being the daily driver. The 105 is really fun for cruising but lately I am focused on airs and its just too much metal to be hauling up. I do recall in my Slingshot days that the shorter masts made a noticeable increase in the sensitivity to turning big wings. Longer mast dulled out the foil a bit. Now that I am on HA foils, I don't really notice. And my lake is drying up and getting shallow so I may have to revisit something shorter. Stupid drought!
-
I've used the entire gambit of lengths and have settled on 32-34 inch masts as my ideal foil mast.
Shorter isn't long enough in tight swell, longer has a bunch of throw but becomes a diminishing returns scenario in everything else in my mind.
I have spoken.
-
I've used the entire gambit of lengths and have settled on 32-34 inch masts as my ideal foil mast.
Shorter isn't long enough in tight swell, longer has a bunch of throw but becomes a diminishing returns scenario in everything else in my mind.
I have spoken.
Forgot the LOL