Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: APPST_Paddle on January 02, 2020, 02:02:09 PM
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Ok, so a bit of background, I'm 38, 170 lbs and I've been SUP surfing for about 5 years. My primary boards are the 7'6" x 29" JL SuperFrank (100L) and the 8'2 SuperTech (102L). I have no issues at all paddling either, could probably go down a bit more. I'm on the east coast in crappy, mushy waves.
So, my plan was to basically learn to foil with kiteboarding, I've kited for over 10 years and figured it would be way easier to learn with a kite and plenty of power than on a SUP. This proved to be correct, it was pretty easy, pretty much riding with no issues after a few equipment malfunctions, and after probably a dozen sessions I'm confident with riding toeside, etc.
Back to SUP - I want to get into SUP foiling as there are others (mostly prone though) getting into it here and showing that it's completely doable in our waves. I have a deal on a GoFoil Maliko(200) and the iwa(170) with a tuttle mount and 24" mast. I'm looking at the 5'11" JL Flying-V, any thoughts? I want to go as short as possible as I think a lot of the issues with guys around here on SUP's is the board is too long and it's too awkard to balance on.
Open to suggestions, again I don't need a perfect foil, just want to get going.
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Get a 29" mast if you have a choice, and consider one of the GL foils. If your deal on the foil setup is smoking good, then just go with that. But price out a 29" mast, pedestal stabilizer and probably a GL210 wing at your weight. The new GL wings are a little more challenging to get up on, and a little less stable, but are much faster and have a lot of glide. You might think slow is better as a beginner, but you really aren't that. You already know how to control a foil. And you probably already know that speed is a good thing with a foil--it lets you turn the way you want to, and gives a lot more control if you can handle it. Think big fat American sedan (M200) vs. sporty car.
You might struggle a bit with that short board, but you won't know until you try.
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Get a 29" mast if you have a choice, and consider one of the GL foils. If your deal on the foil setup is smoking good, then just go with that. But price out a 29" mast, pedestal stabilizer and probably a GL210 wing at your weight. The new GL wings are a little more challenging to get up on, and a little less stable, but are much faster and have a lot of glide. You might think slow is better as a beginner, but you really aren't that. You already know how to control a foil. And you probably already know that speed is a good thing with a foil--it lets you turn the way you want to, and gives a lot more control if you can handle it. Think big fat American sedan (M200) vs. sporty car.
You might struggle a bit with that short board, but you won't know until you try.
Yeah, good points. Speed is definitely your friend, took a second to gather that on swapping to my toeside and staying on foil. I actually have a 29" Slingshot mast, a friend cut my 36" down to 29" as a happy balance between 24" and 36" for kiting. I'll probably have to start on the 24" mast with the GL, the deal is incredibly good IMO, so I will probably roll with it.
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That’s exactly how I got into foiling - deal was just too awesome to pass. Here are my thoughts - I am about your size 170lbs and paddle on 6.5 JL Flying V. For me this board is very stable - if I were to buy the board today I would likely go with 5.11, but I do live on the Florida gulf coast so our waves are mostly wind chop and slop. We rarely have glassy conditions, most of the days it is super crappy chop and slop so more volume is a good thing here. I have Iwa, M200, M280 with 24 mast. Yes mast is flexy with the m280 on it. With m200 wing I almost don’t feel the flex and when you are flying there is no flex at all. I will definitely get 29 mast down the road but it might be a problem where I live - too shallow so 24 is nice in that regard. My favorite go to wing has been m200 - it seems to fly really well on the gulf waves. I have tried Iwa and it loves more push and faster wave which I think is going to be great for Atlantic. Here though, Iwa just outruns the waves where as M200 seems to be in perfect sync. So I say go for it! I am glad I did, I haven’t really touched a Sup since august or so, maybe just a few times. Foiling is so much fun, especially when everyone is struggling around trying to find a wave and you fly on a little tiny unsurfable bump.
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In terms of the board size, everything is a tradeoff. You might be happier with a little bit bigger board to get into waves earlier and with less effort. You might be happier with a shorter and lighter board to reduce swing-weight for turning and pumping. I think the decision does depend a bit on the waves you will be surfing and what you want to do with them. If the waves are fast-moving, you really want size (paddling speed) to avoid having to make a critical late drop which is super tough on a foil SUP. But it sounds like you're dealing with slow-moving waves, so perhaps going as small as you can is the right call.
I will say that board shapes have been improving really fast, and the Jimmy Lewis flying V seems a few steps behind what I'm seeing coming out. I haven't ridden a lot of boards, so maybe chat with someone who has.
I'm on the fence about the foil setup. I spent a lot of time on the M200/IWA combo and they are awesome. As you progress you are going to want to move to the GL series. So depending on your attitude, you might want to just skip that step and go straight there. It'll be a little bit longer learning curve though.
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In terms of the board size, everything is a tradeoff. You might be happier with a little bit bigger board to get into waves earlier and with less effort. You might be happier with a shorter and lighter board to reduce swing-weight for turning and pumping. I think the decision does depend a bit on the waves you will be surfing and what you want to do with them. If the waves are fast-moving, you really want size (paddling speed) to avoid having to make a critical late drop which is super tough on a foil SUP. But it sounds like you're dealing with slow-moving waves, so perhaps going as small as you can is the right call.
I will say that board shapes have been improving really fast, and the Jimmy Lewis flying V seems a few steps behind what I'm seeing coming out. I haven't ridden a lot of boards, so maybe chat with someone who has.
I'm on the fence about the foil setup. I spent a lot of time on the M200/IWA combo and they are awesome. As you progress you are going to want to move to the GL series. So depending on your attitude, you might want to just skip that step and go straight there. It'll be a little bit longer learning curve though.
These are all good points from all of you, so yeah, definitely small, weak, mushy waves. Probably mostly on an inlet, I think I agree with the 24" mast guidance as well, I actually went to the 29" for awhile kiting, but the downside is the shallowness of waves/spots. So, I think 24" is still a good call mast wise. In terms of board, etc. I think I'd rather go less expensive/advanced on the foil, and more so on the board. I always end up going too conservative on the board and it ends up biting me. That and I know JL won't steer me wrong, so I'll e-mail and talk to him a bit.
Thanks for all of the advice, I think I've asked this before, but does anyone have any direct advice on the difference between kitefoiling and SUP foiling?
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Mind if I thread hop? Bump me if not and I’ll take it elsewhere.
I’m watching the used market and am seeing a lot of Naish Large wings. If I’m 140lbs will those work for learning or do I need to go larger? What kind of wingspan or size should a smaller person learn on for SUP? (and prone if you wanna go for extra points.)
I’m asking this as it’s not been covered in a while and there are so many giant wings, yes. But I also know a lot of you learned on those Takuma’s and knock offs that are like 60cm wide. What’s the lowdown?
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Mind if I thread hop? Bump me if not and I’ll take it elsewhere.
I’m watching the used market and am seeing a lot of Naish Large wings. If I’m 140lbs will those work for learning or do I need to go larger? What kind of wingspan or size should a smaller person learn on for SUP? (and prone if you wanna go for extra points.)
I’m asking this as it’s not been covered in a while and there are so many giant wings, yes. But I also know a lot of you learned on those Takuma’s and knock offs that are like 60cm wide. What’s the lowdown?
Go for it, I will say around here at least, a lot of the Naish wings got turned over pretty quick.
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That’s kind of my takeaway. Clearly a lot of folks have evolved on.
But that said, a lot of folks learned on them and they are starting to show up in the $300-$400 range. At that price you can turn them over pretty easily when you move on. But again, most recommendations on here are for 180-200lb folks. So I’m not really clear if a 36” span is easier to learn on or if it would be hard to keep in the water at 140.
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That’s kind of my takeaway. Clearly a lot of folks have evolved on.
But that said, a lot of folks learned on them and they are starting to show up in the $300-$400 range. At that price you can turn them over pretty easily when you move on. But again, most recommendations on here are for 180-200lb folks. So I’m not really clear if a 36” span is easier to learn on or if it would be hard to keep in the water at 140.
From my limited kiting experience, and I'm guessing a lot of it would transfer to SUP/surf, is that the longer mast trade-off is that you can get over bumps and chop, etc. in windy spots, and you have more leeway with breaching the foil. The downsides tend to outweigh that one advantage in my experience as the longer mast is more rigid and less surfy if that makes sense, and obviously you have to watch your depth. Pretty much 95% of the guys here are on 24" masts for surf, varies for kite. I would definitely start with something smaller than 36" if you have no foil experience.
Just my two cents, a lot of it depends on your wave size/depth, etc.
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Thx man, actually I have a good idea for a new thread on here.
Starting now.
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Hi, Appst
I have a smokin deal on a full, super durable quiver with 4 front wings, 2 stabilizers, 3 masts and all the other goodies to get you going in any condition you can imagine. These wings are stable and super fun.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35628.0.html
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The downsides tend to outweigh that one advantage in my experience as the longer mast is more rigid and less surfy if that makes sense, and obviously you have to watch your depth. Pretty much 95% of the guys here are on 24" masts for surf, varies for kite. I would definitely start with something smaller than 36" if you have no foil experience.
Agree...
I've just moved from a 55cm mast (which I learnt on, and thought was the 'beginner' length) to 65cm mast (which I thought would be the more 'advanced' length).
In truth, it's not more advanced at all. It actually makes turns slower and more stable, so I've had to relearn my balance a bit, and gives more room for error. It is better for pumping though, which is nice on a 7'4" SUP, and allows you to get more leverage when really cranking a turn, so you need less foot pressure.
Going to a longer mast was actually a bit of a disappointment!
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I would not start with the 5'11 board out of the gate. Get something larger. My 7'4 is big and heavy but once I am on wing it lights up. I realize there is more swing weight, but I am to dumb to know it yet. The 7'4 has allowed me to only concentrate on the catching the waves and staying up on the wing. No worrying about balance, or listing in the flat paddle. I can charge through the nastiest white piles all day long paddling out. The foil acts like an anchor, duck diving under me.
Your comment about SUP foiling vs Kite Foiling. here it is. ready?? One you are being pulled the other you are not. also the kite foils are usually smaller I believe.
-red
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I would not start with the 5'11 board out of the gate. Get something larger. My 7'4 is big and heavy but once I am on wing it lights up. I realize there is more swing weight, but I am to dumb to know it yet. The 7'4 has allowed me to only concentrate on the catching the waves and staying up on the wing. No worrying about balance, or listing in the flat paddle. I can charge through the nastiest white piles all day long paddling out. The foil acts like an anchor, duck diving under me.
Your comment about SUP foiling vs Kite Foiling. here it is. ready?? One you are being pulled the other you are not. also the kite foils are usually smaller I believe.
-red
Haha, good tips. I get it with the kite/SUP. I actually just switched to a much larger foil for kiting, but it's a batwing, so it's nice and smooth in carves. It took awhile to get used to, but the feedback especially toeside is great. I'm with you on the larger board, I don't want to think about balance, so I'll go with a bit more volume.
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That’s exactly how I got into foiling - deal was just too awesome to pass. Here are my thoughts - I am about your size 170lbs and paddle on 6.5 JL Flying V. For me this board is very stable - if I were to buy the board today I would likely go with 5.11, but I do live on the Florida gulf coast so our waves are mostly wind chop and slop. We rarely have glassy conditions, most of the days it is super crappy chop and slop so more volume is a good thing here. I have Iwa, M200, M280 with 24 mast. Yes mast is flexy with the m280 on it. With m200 wing I almost don’t feel the flex and when you are flying there is no flex at all. I will definitely get 29 mast down the road but it might be a problem where I live - too shallow so 24 is nice in that regard. My favorite go to wing has been m200 - it seems to fly really well on the gulf waves. I have tried Iwa and it loves more push and faster wave which I think is going to be great for Atlantic. Here though, Iwa just outruns the waves where as M200 seems to be in perfect sync. So I say go for it! I am glad I did, I haven’t really touched a Sup since august or so, maybe just a few times. Foiling is so much fun, especially when everyone is struggling around trying to find a wave and you fly on a little tiny unsurfable bump.
This sounds good, I think I am actually going to bump up to the 6'5"/M200 mix.
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It took long enough, but I'm moving forward with foil SUP - 6'5" Flying-V, talked to a few people locally, and they said while I could probably get away with paddling the 5'11", you obviously want balance and paddling to be second nature dealing with the foil, so I went with a bit more length.
Next up is grabbing a GoFoil fuselage, a friend of mine is giving me a Maliko 200 has he's on prone and doesn't use it that often. I'll report back hopefully with some video once I get started. I'm somewhat hopeful as kite foiling came really easily to me, so understanding how to work the foil is pretty much second nature. Although, with the kite it obviously is very easy to control power, and you have less volume in the board to deal with.
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Hey APPST,
Have I got the perfect Go Foil V1.5 mast package for you, I was just about to list it.
PM me if you're interested.
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6'5" JL Flying-V on it's way, GL Maliko 200 setup, kid on Christmas, now I just need decent access to the beach. Right now, the beach 5 minutes away from me has a 24/7 checkpoint on all non-residents of that small beach. The other beaches 35 minutes from me have a 7-7 checkpoint, which does provide a window to surf before or kite after, so I guess it will work for now.
Any videos other Blue Zone SUP tutorials or anything else anyone found extremely useful?
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Probably going out on my first session in the AM, should be a little knee to waist high bump, going to an inlet where the waves basically don't break, 6'5" JL Flying-V, GL Maliko 200 foil, 24" mast. I've watched videos, etc. pretty confident on a foil on a kite, pretty much riding strapless no issues, it's second nature. So I at least know the feeling of the foil, and how to control it initially. I'm guessing this thing is going to have a ton of lift.
Any suggestions for that first session? I know wave selection is key, and I will be picky, trust there won't be anything with any steepness. The one thing I forgot was a coiled leash, I have a coiled calf leash that's 10' for my longboard, should I use that or just go with a standard 7' ankle leash?