Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: obxDave on December 11, 2019, 11:56:17 PM
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Anyone working on, or mastered upwind transitions yet? Any secret learning tips? I’ve been trying toeside to heelside upwind transitions as my first progression beyond jibing. Would you consider that the easiest first upwind transition to learn?
I can finish a small percentage standing up, but always come off the foil in the end. They look pretty pathetic right now. Of course I never seem to be in “ideal” conditions. In the attached vid I was seriously powered up on my 4m Duotone, and all that wetsuit rubber in cold water just added to the challenge. Always feel like I’m bringing the wing over my head way too slowly compared to my carve, and sometimes it tends to fall behind me as I swing it over which kinda lifts the foil up killing speed. Maybe just going into them too slow? By the time I can pull on the wing in the other direction my speed’s gone and I’ve overcarved (?) Maybe some good training vids out there? I haven’t really found any. Thinking this might be good to practice on a skate board (with lots of pads!)
https://youtu.be/DcF4WuP2aPk
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So no input? Figured I was late to the party on this wingy thing and lots of people would already be onto the next level. Oh well.
Last session I was way underpowered but was itchin to try a downwind jibe into a backwinded riding position. I wiped out pretty quickly but it was fun to try. I want to try again. Are these sorts of transitions just not on people’s radar screen...?
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So no input? Figured I was late to the party on this wingy thing and lots of people would already be onto the next level. Oh well.
Last session I was way underpowered but was itchin to try a downwind jibe into a backwinded riding position. I wiped out pretty quickly but it was fun to try. I want to try again. Are these sorts of transitions just not on people’s radar screen...?
There are a bunch of clips posted here of some nice smooth tacks for visualization:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34953.0.html
Also, Dan (River) had done this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQoset86qD4
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Yeah, I watched Dan’s vid early on, and I’ve watched just about every clip I could find of upwind tack styles (not even sure if you’re supposed to call it a tack since most people don’t switch stance midway, but any term is fine with me). Anyway, thanks for the links!
Watching clips of the “super wingers” can be limiting since they make everything look like an afternoon stroll in the park, and you don’t get a feel for the progression to get there. One example; I like to ride a reasonably narrow stance for easy foot switch, but find I need a bit wider stance at least while learning to tack, to stay balanced through the transition.
Just surprised about no comments on personal progression experiences given all the in depth talk about wanting to water start 25 liter boards.........
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Yeah, I watched Dan’s vid early on, and I’ve watched just about every clip I could find of upwind tack styles (not even sure if you’re supposed to call it a tack since most people don’t switch stance midway, but any term is fine with me). Anyway, thanks for the links!
Watching clips of the “super wingers” can be limiting since they make everything look like an afternoon stroll in the park, and you don’t get a feel for the progression to get there. One example; I like to ride a reasonably narrow stance for easy foot switch, but find I need a bit wider stance at least while learning to tack, to stay balanced through the transition.
Just surprised about no comments on personal progression experiences given all the in depth talk about wanting to water start 25 liter boards.........
Hi Dave,
Yes. It is cool to see all of the different styles. I love the look of switching the front hand first and leading the whole move with that hand as it goes over the old front shoulder (particularly when switching from regular stance to offside with no foot switch). I was talking to a kite foiler the other day who is really stoked on the wing. He thought that foiling transitions were almost identical on the wing as on a kite with the handwork being the only real difference. Are you finding that? Any transition into the wind is going to be a tack.
I am unsure what connection you are making with waterstarts and tacks.
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I find that lots of speed is needed for any transition upwind, and once I switched to a smaller hydrofoil they became way easier because of the speed on the approach. At first, you may also need to pivot the end of your turn really quick into the new reaching angle after you cross the eye of the wind unless your really hauling ass. I also grab way far back on the boom/handles when I switch my hands to make sure I get max power from the wing as quickly as possible after it crosses over my head through the eye of the wind. I always switch my feet on my offside so I am riding toeside into the tack on a starboard reach since I am regular. At first, a port side tack was easier but now that I can ride toeside better I like tacking from the starboard reach especially on the face of a wave. I hope that helps from my marginal armchair visualization. ;D
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River; Cool. I’m on a Gong XL pro foil witch I think is reasonably fast (but not nearly as fast as that Axis 1000), but I’m sure I’m not carrying as much speed into the transition as I should. Maybe need to “bear off” a bit for higher speed going in. I like the idea of grabbing farther back on the switch. In that vid I posted at least one turn ended with a pretty strong pivot as I came off the foil. My board and foil rig weigh in at a whopping 30 #. I hope to lighten that up in the near future, thinking it will help with the upwind stuff and more aggressive carves.
Admin; regarding the water start connection,....that was just a connection based on degree of difficulty. My feeble guess is that both are a “next level” skill set over the basic stuff. For me upwind kiting transitions are definitely more difficult than on a wing foil. Timing the kite back loop is way more challenging (for me) compared to just flinging a wing over my head. Doing a kite foil racing foot switch tack is super hard and I’ve never even gotten close to getting one.
Too cold for my old bones to get wet today, so I pilfered my daughters long board to play with the wing. Seemed to work pretty well even though my skate board skills suck, and I was a bit underpowered. Plenty of upwind tacking practice and luckily no scrapes😀
https://youtu.be/95dw_kby0g8
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Crazy buggah. Most of my serious injuries were doing stuff like that. I shouldn't even watch that stuff.
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Crazy buggah. Most of my serious injuries were doing stuff like that. I shouldn't even watch that stuff.
I have some knee/wrist/elbow pads on the way from Amazon. Its actually pretty fun, and I want to go faster and turn harder. :P........ (When I was dating my “future” wife in 1985, I had a custom skateboard sailor for my windsurf sails. She’s used to it ;) )
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Starting to feel a wee bit more consistent, though that 5m duotone is a lumbering beast. Really looking forward to trying these tacks with a 12# board, 6.5# foil rig, and minus 10# of wet neoprene. Dec 30th on the Outer Banks and 65 deg, so at least the hood and gloves weren’t needed😀. Maybe try some heel to toeside tacks next. Definitely gonna be harder
https://youtu.be/VRyJ0HWcHxk
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Well done!!!
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Just had a break though today on the tacks. I was hitting them off and on and my biggest issue was the wing not going to the other side of the wind window and then I'd stall. I was fine on the 4.2 and 3.5, but the 5, and 6 was the issue. Found that if I push my back hand away from me it'll turn the nose of the wing sending it to the other side of the window and then I was able to follow around to it and ride off. Hope this helps
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Just had a break though today on the tacks. I was hitting them off and on and my biggest issue was the wing not going to the other side of the wind window and then I'd stall. I was fine on the 4.2 and 3.5, but the 5, and 6 was the issue. Found that if I push my back hand away from me it'll turn the nose of the wing sending it to the other side of the window and then I was able to follow around to it and ride off. Hope this helps
I don’t think I do anything special with my back hand, at least from what I can see from my own video. The more I’ve been making them on the “fly” I see that the arc of my turn gets really tight as the tack progresses and I’ll regrab and pull with the new back hand just as I the arc tightens up and I’m directly into the wind. All happens pretty fast. Any delay and I’m off the foil. I will say that doing lots of skate board tacks has helped even though they are much easier to do. The video is on the 5m Duotone, which is a bit of a beast to quickly pass overhead but, again the skate board practice really helped. I’d love to get to the point of having a long gliding foil so the tacks don’t feel so pivot like....
https://youtu.be/rivWD7t63PI
The screen grab shows where I am in that tight arc and already yanking the wing in with the reset back hand before I’m even through the wind window.
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Looking smooth Dave, I'll have to give the skate board practice a try. I went for my first heal side to toe side tack today and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Practice makes perfect. It would be great if someone would makes a camera mount for the F1's so I could get that angle you're getting with the duotone. Working on the push jibe also, can almost get it but not getting past the wing, going to try dragging the wing tip next time.
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Looking smooth Dave, I'll have to give the skate board practice a try. I went for my first heal side to toe side tack today and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Practice makes perfect. It would be great if someone would makes a camera mount for the F1's so I could get that angle you're getting with the duotone. Working on the push jibe also, can almost get it but not getting past the wing, going to try dragging the wing tip next time.
Push jibe? Not sure what you mean. Jibe to sailing backwinded? (Which I guess would be the first half of a 360). I’ve tried a couple on the 5m, but haven’t come remotely close. Also never tried a heal to toeside tack yet. Heck, haven’t been on the water for the last two weeks, but anxious to get workin on both!
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You're right with the 360, I'd be happy with getting out on the toe side of it to begin with tho. Going from heal to toe wasn't that bad. Felt weird to go into it but then I realized I should of went for it sooner. Hopefully cleaner winds for me tomorrow so I can nail these tricks.
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Nailed my first ever tack today, speed is the answer, what was the question?? But seriously, I was overpowered, on a speedy axis 101 foil, and I could have gone a hundred yards without any added power at the stupid speed I was holding, so I decided to tack. Why not.
I drove upwind across the eye, switched my feet and got comfortable on the new tack, then brought the wing across from straight overhead to powered up. I think some ancient muscle memory from my wind weapon days kicked in, but it all seemed kind of automatic. Of course, I didn't make the next ten I tried, but the first one was brainless and worked perfectly.
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My 5 cents after beginning to get them going from toe-side to heelside.
1) Carry good speed
2) Sit as high as comfortable on foil
3) Carve into wind very gently, too aggressive and it gets complicated
4) Sheet in slightly with back hand while carving towards eye of wind
5) From here everything has to do with front hand movement, lift front hand high (higher than you think) and move it aggressively across in the direction of the turn. This turns your shoulders and the board will follow
6) Switch hands on wing and sheet in hard with back hand - this will pull nose of board around the last bit.
Single most important bit is point 5 - time this right and tack almost happens automatically.
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But seriously, I was overpowered, on a speedy axis 101 foil, and I could have gone a hundred yards without any added power at the stupid speed I was holding
I saw Dwight’s new 101 and that thing looks like a drag racer compared to my old-school Gong XL pro! Although I watch Patrice tack with his XL pro with lots of glide so I know it’s a technique issue (of course the guy is a guru and balance wizard on anything he rides). Then I watch people like Alan Cadiz tack with endless glide on his GoFoil GL 180 and think I just have to get one,...or a 101. I’m at equipment envy stage....
Peterp: timing 5 right is important for me to make the tack, but doing 6 really quickly is what keeps me up on foil...........since I don’t have all that extra foil glide of those GL’s and 101’s! ;)
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Have any of you tried the tack at 0:43 ? Switch hands before/right at initiation of the board turn. That looks really slick.
https://youtu.be/yTwQrkO8WaE?t=41
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Have any of you tried the tack at 0:43 ? Switch hands before/right at initiation of the board turn. That looks really slick.
https://youtu.be/yTwQrkO8WaE?t=41
That clip demonstrates perfectly my point 5. Front hand up high and bringing it across in the direction you want to turn and everything follows. Once it starts clicking this is easier than trying to turn into the wind first.
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Hey Peter,
Yes, that looks great. It also looks like he is switching his hands at the beginning of your step 3. I want to get that one in my head and learn it.
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Have any of you tried the tack at 0:43 ? Switch hands before/right at initiation of the board turn. That looks really slick.
https://youtu.be/yTwQrkO8WaE?t=41
Hmmmm, I keep looking at my own video. I feel like the moment I start the upwind carve I’m releasing and swinging it overhead. The video shows he’s doing it even earlier. Interesting. One thing I know from experience is that the “regrab” backhand pull can’t start too early otherwise the wing isn’t catching wind in the new direction (to finish pulling you around and regaining speed). My boom camera angle still kinda sucks. Anxious to see what it looks like using my Staaker drone
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Staaker Drone. Wow! That thing looks fantastic. Does it do alright in wind?
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Found the FAQ. This sounds terrific!
What wind speeds does the Staaker operate in? We have tested that the Staaker functions in winds above 50 kmh (30 mph), however we do not advice to operate the Staaker in winds above 30 kph (20 mph) for achieving optimal tracking performance.
What happens if my Staaker loses track of me? Your Staaker will hover in place and try to recover the signal from the tracker. As soon as signal is recovered, the tracker screen will prompt you to press the Play button to resume the current follow mode. If signal is not recovered before the battery runs low, the drone will land at its current location (or fly back to takeoff location in case of water sports). You can easily find the Staaker using the "Locate Staaker" function on the tracker.
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Found the FAQ. This sounds terrific!
What wind speeds does the Staaker operate in? We have tested that the Staaker functions in winds above 50 kmh (30 mph), however we do not advice to operate the Staaker in winds above 30 kph (20 mph) for achieving optimal tracking performance.
What happens if my Staaker loses track of me? Your Staaker will hover in place and try to recover the signal from the tracker. As soon as signal is recovered, the tracker screen will prompt you to press the Play button to resume the current follow mode. If signal is not recovered before the battery runs low, the drone will land at its current location (or fly back to takeoff location in case of water sports). You can easily find the Staaker using the "Locate Staaker" function on the tracker.
So maybe I’ll start another thread on “gps tracking drones” for wing foiling rather than get this one too far off track, but yeah, Staaker has a top speed of almost 50 mph and cab easily follow kite surfers/windsurfers/wingers etc in winds in the 25 knot range. When tracking close to the rider it can be challenging to keep the subject in frame during higher winds, but there isn’t much else that will even work in this category (DJI drones will always require a dedicated pilot, but the new Skydio 2 has great potential). Here is a video of Staaker in action over in Europe (not me) showing its wind/water capabilities
https://youtu.be/YMGEUZg1B18
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Anyone have any images or videos of upwind with a harness attached to wing showing the tack?
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Anyone have any images or videos of upwind with a harness attached to wing showing the tack?
Why would you want to try it hooked in? Seems like it would be much more difficult, if possible at all.
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Got another tack yesterday, once again, 99% accidental. I was sort of thinking about a tack, but I got hit from the side with the goofy wave in the Portagee Triangle at Kanaha--any Maui windsurfer knows what I'm talking about. Lost my balance, leaned way too far onto the toe rail, completed the turn while I was trying to keep from falling off the board. The wing came over my head so I reverse hands and off I went. I didn't actually realize I had tacked until I had sailed some distance. "Hey, I'm going in the other direction?!?" Gratuitous interrobang.
So I'm two for two on clueless tacks and 0 for 30 on intentional. I think I'm on to something in a Charlie Chaplin/Harold Lloyd sort of way.
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Look at JB’s toe side to heel side tack at 1:18. He just leans into it and pumps the board all the way around. Wide, and easy.
Heck, I think I can do that. Next session I will try.
https://youtu.be/yTwQrkO8WaE
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Have any of you tried the tack at 0:43 ? Switch hands before/right at initiation of the board turn. That looks really slick.
https://youtu.be/yTwQrkO8WaE?t=41
So I gave this a try, at least I think I did. This is a geekish video frame-grab look back. Slide 3 looks like I have both hands at the front of the boom before really started to carve upwind. I did this slower overhead swing with both hands on the front of the boom (slide 3/4), and didn’t re-release (to regrab for sheeting in on the other direction) till I was through the eye of the wind. Felt kinda cool. Thanks for the tip :)
With a mega glide wing I dream about, I could extend it out even more!
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FLkiter came up from Miami to ride with us today.
His tacks are so sick and look super easy. His way, is going to be my way, from here on out. I made one attempt after watching him and got hit in the head by the board. Thank goodness I wear a helmet. Jacky said my attempt looked good, until it didn’t.
The hand exchange is primary focus. Getting it done early. Board just follows automatic. He had a few subtle tips, that are hard to explain in writing.
His 360’s look super easy too. I wish I had got those on video. He copied the Gong way, and it looks so simple once you see it done in person, and get the secret tips from him ;D
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8e4JZpnyly/?igshid=1ufalwipqg749
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FLkiter came up from Miami to ride with us today.
His tacks are so sick and look super easy. His way, is going to be my way, from here on out. I made one attempt after watching him and got hit in the head by the board. Thank goodness I wear a helmet. Jacky said my attempt looked good, until it didn’t.
The hand exchange is primary focus. Getting it done early. Board just follows automatic. He had a few subtle tips, that are hard to explain in writing.
His 360’s look super easy too. I wish I had got those on video. He copied the Gong way, and it looks so simple once you see it done in person, and get the secret tips from him
Nice, and envious of those FL winter conditions,...and youngsters who learn quickly! Really looking forward to winging in shorties......Harder to make progress around our colder conditions up here. Between the cold and old age it’s like I get maybe 2 hours before I have come in for a nap! Still determined to work on 360’s and heel to toeside tacks. What I lack in skill, I make up for in fumbling perseverance :o
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I'll try to get video shot this week with instructional on the tack. The basics are send the wing first. To do this with the F1 push your back hand away and the wing will turn and want to fly over your head. As it goes over your head watch it and your body will follow. Then you can pull in to switch hands which will give you some pull to ride away with. Pumping the board will help if you start to stall. Go into the trick not too fast, speed isn't too important but having the board level will allow the foil to pivot into the new direction and the foil being flat will keep you on foil. If you're going really fast, it's harder to change that momentum to a new direction. Don't throw the wing too fast ether, it'll swing over and then want to pull you down wind and stall you, pulling you off the board. If you kite foil, it's the same concept, let the wing glide over producing lift.
Coming out of the turn, pulling the rear hand to your rear hip will also stabilize and push you forward. Let me know if you have any questions and thank you OBXDave for the vids you posted, it helped me start going for it.
For the 360, watch the gong video how to. When you stall the wing by touching water with the tip, just keep looking in the direction you want to go past the wing. It might feel like you're never going to pass but, you will eventually. Don't look at the wing and once you get past the wing it'll catch wind and pull you around.
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For the 360, watch the gong video how to. When you stall the wing by touching water with the tip, just keep looking in the direction you want to go past the wing. It might feel like you're never going to pass but, you will eventually. Don't look at the wing and once you get past the wing it'll catch wind and pull you around.
Cool. I’ve watched the Patrice video a few times. Now all I need are some workable conditions to practice in. Out today in 24-34 mph with my (smallest) 4m wing getting my butt whoooped. Might have to break down and pick up a 3m....