Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on December 09, 2019, 03:57:55 AM

Title: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 09, 2019, 03:57:55 AM
I was down at Windance yesterday to pick up up an (air) wing that had arrived and they let me know that Moses has designed a Hydrofoil wing for Wingsurfing that is coming available.  Pretty sure this is the one https://store.moseshydrofoil.com/products/wing-1020-surfwing .  That set me to wondering.  What would a wing specific hydrofoil look like?  What is missing in the currently available foils? 

Surface   2100 cm2
Root Chord   246 mm
Span   1100 mm
Aspect Ratio   5.7

(https://moseshydrofoil.com/storage/media/541/cover.jpg)

Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 09, 2019, 04:10:49 AM
https://www.facebook.com/kitechino/videos/814394649013507/
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: burchas on December 09, 2019, 05:20:50 AM
That set me to wondering.  What would a wing specific hydrofoil look like?  What is missing in the currently available foils?

My guess would be a good marketing spiel to part you from your money? Works every time on me ;D
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Thatspec on December 09, 2019, 06:28:08 AM
Looks like a very nice wing, highish but not ridiculous AR. Useful size. My gut is telling me their wing to fuse connection is lacking in contact area for larger wings, arguably worse than the Go Foil / Gong square taper (which is still weak compared to Axis and some others).
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 09, 2019, 08:15:47 AM
I think we already have wing specific foils from Axis and GoFoil.  Moses/Slingshot didn’t have anything modern and appropriate until this one.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 09, 2019, 08:44:35 AM
Looks like a very nice wing, highish but not ridiculous AR. Useful size.

Yup.  3.1 inches longer than the Axis 1020 with the same chord and just a little more area.  I wonder about the thickness.  There is a lot of room between the 900, 1000 mode and the 820, 920, 1020 mode.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Beasho on December 09, 2019, 08:53:07 AM
That set me to wondering.  What would a wing specific hydrofoil look like?  What is missing in the currently available foils? 

Its all about speed profile for the wing.

Ocean waves move at 8 to 12 mph, most normal sized waves.  The key to FOIL surfing was getting wings to work at these slower speeds.

I recall from my windsurfing days that a windsurfer started to plane at 17 mph.  Much faster than a typical ride on a wave.  These wingding specific foils will probably be optimal in the 12 to 20 mph range.  Meaning slightly thinner and faster than a good wing for surfing in typical crappy waves. 
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: JEG on December 09, 2019, 12:21:28 PM
spin that wheel  :)
nice looking wing though  8)
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Solent Foiler on December 09, 2019, 02:07:08 PM
Beasho - interesting point - for me, one of the main attractions of winging is it's compatability with wave riding, whether downwinding, or traditional surf riding. Having a foil optimised for faster than wave speed doesn't do it for me.

Also, faster foils might require an adjustment in wing design to cope (EDIT eg to maintain handling and efficient use) with the higher average apparent wind speeds.  However, who knows whether wing racing is going to become a 'thing' which will need designs in a different space to what has come thus far...
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 10, 2019, 04:19:36 AM
That set me to wondering.  What would a wing specific hydrofoil look like?  What is missing in the currently available foils? 

Its all about speed profile for the wing.

Ocean waves move at 8 to 12 mph, most normal sized waves.  The key to FOIL surfing was getting wings to work at these slower speeds.

I recall from my windsurfing days that a windsurfer started to plane at 17 mph.  Much faster than a typical ride on a wave.  These wingding specific foils will probably be optimal in the 12 to 20 mph range.  Meaning slightly thinner and faster than a good wing for surfing in typical crappy waves.

I think you are right.  We have great instant lift and cruise wings like the Axis 1020 and 920 which are still really thick but then there is a pretty radical change to the (notably faster) high aspect wings like the 1000 and 900 which are quite thin.  It leaves a lot of middle ground.  A thinned out version of the 920 for instance would be a very interesting wing. 
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: flkiter on December 10, 2019, 05:38:03 AM
The only thing that I could see being a benefit is a foil that rides waves as good as they do now and have better up wind speed. I'm dropping to some smaller boards soon so hopefully that'll speed things up a bit for me. I feel like I'm the freight truck on the water as the kite foilers are like cars passing me by. I wouldn't want to give up surf ability for speed since riding waves and swell is where it's at for me.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Beasho on December 10, 2019, 06:18:47 AM
I feel like I'm the freight truck on the water as the kite foilers are like cars passing me by. I wouldn't want to give up surf ability for speed since riding waves and swell is where it's at for me.

Exactly the challenge.  And this is the reason the kite foils never worked in the surf.  They were designed to go 30 mph+++.

Kite foils have been around more than a decade but it took Alex Aguerra to slow everything down and re-invent the sport.  Now the wing ding has us wanting to go faster again.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: flkiter on December 10, 2019, 07:37:02 AM
I notice if I'm on the Axis 1020, I get more pressure in the handles due to its speed than I do with the 1000 which is way faster. I rode the Neil Pryde large yesterday and it was a bit of an in between of the two Axis foils in regards to getting on foil and speed of riding and hand pressure but, the pump in the ocean swell wasn't as good as ether of the Axis foils. I'm still in the thinking of people are going to have to buy what works for their ability, weight and conditions. Marketing sucks since all the companies say the same thing about their products.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 10, 2019, 07:48:23 AM
I wouldn't want to give up surf ability for speed since riding waves and swell is where it's at for me.

Amen! When Laitham (GoFoil team rider) tried my wing ding, he said wow, more fun than kiting. He’s a getting full quiver of GoFoil branded WASP wings in all the new sizes.

Fingers crossed the new Axis 880 Gul wing lets us rip harder surfing and still has good pump for the wing ding.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 10, 2019, 07:59:01 AM
Listen to todays Progression Project Podcast. They talk about a downwind SUP session where 3 guys swapped between the GoFoil GL wing, the Takuma LOL, and an Axis protoype that looked like the 900.

The Takuma is the low aspect wing in the bunch and you’d guess the slowest, but was the same speed as the GL GoFoil. Mind blowing to them all.

The Axis prototype wing was the slowest, yet it looks the fastest on the beach.

Go figure!  We know nothing  ;D
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: JEG on December 10, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
that LOL is fast DW foil and well done on your results Jacko (2nd) & Ben (1st & 1st), smash it!

The Guy won in foil/wing category was on duotone wing with axis foil.

https://www.facebook.com/Kingofthecut.Perth.Australia/
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: obxDave on December 11, 2019, 01:47:06 AM
Exactly the challenge.  And this is the reason the kite foils never worked in the surf.  They were designed to go 30 mph+++.

Kite foils have been around more than a decade but it took Alex Aguerra to slow everything down and re-invent the sport.  Now the wing ding has us wanting to go faster again.

I see it a little differently.  Recreational kite foil wings first started out with smallish slow “shovel” wings (really unstable over 20 mph), then quickly progressed to small higher aspect and reasonably fast wings (~600 cm2 with an average riding speed about 20 mph;....30mph+ is pushing into more race specific designs). I had an RRD h-flight  wing that was in that category.  With limited area they also had high stall speeds. They weren’t the easiest to learn on but short masts for learning were just coming out so that helped.

Moses came out with the 633 Onda (maybe early 2018?) designed specifically as a wave surfing wing, not as a generic kite foil wing at all. It was huge (1200 sq cm) by kite foil standards, and sort of looked like a large “techie” version of the original shovel foils.  Kite foilers almost immediately discovered it was perfect for “average person” kite foiling,....very low stall speed and yet pretty decent high end speed,....and pretty carvy all at the same time. Even sort of workable in knee-to-head-high surf. Low aspect but very thin profile.   The 633 completely changed kite foiling, and still dominates the market today. Mine’s been pounded hard and still works as well as the day got it.  I hardly see anyone use it for its original surfing purpose.

Moral to the story,....like Dwight said, we know nothing so hang on for the ride and keep the credit card ready🤪. I wish all foil producers would publish a “volume” spec like Axis and Gong. I think I’d prefer it over a thickness spec. The numbers on the new Moses 1100 don’t really tell me any thing without the profile thickness (or volume) spec. FWIW I’m not a current fan of thick wings, regardless of the span/chord dimensions.

Axis 1020 => 2013 sq cm projected area, 4.16 liter volume
Axis 1000 => 1310 sq cm projected area, 1.94 liter volume
Gong pro XL => 1733 sq cm projected area, 2.5 liter volume
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2019, 04:29:28 AM
We have the high lift lower speed side of things really well covered.  It is possible that the high aspect wings developed for other sports are going to be best option for winging at the other end of the spectrum (they are fast and fun) but I imagine we will see a range of options that fill the sizable gap between those.  I believe the Phantom is a new one coming from F-One.

Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Admin on December 12, 2019, 05:33:24 AM
PS:  On FB a user had asked about the difference between the two foils.  Here is the (translation of the) response:

At the moment there is only one phantom 1780, when we compare the shapes, the phantom is more slim than the gravity 1800 (size of 107, 90 for gravity). The Phantom is a bit more flat, it has less lobe than gravity. The Phantom's profile is more fine. The Phantom has less (closer) Rope.
In Practice, rendering is a bit more difficult with a phantom than with a low speed gravity (one can assume that it is more easily than in surf or sup foil).
A little less handling, it's not a foil of carving, but in downwind sup foil it is comfortable for zigzagging in the swell.
More speed for the phantom, the flight is longer, in pumping for example there will be more performance. More yield because more lift, we'll have as much lift as with a 2200.
Both are suitable for sup foil, wing foil, pumping, advantage to the phantom in terms of speed, advantage to gravity for handling; in performance the phantom will go faster and generate more lift, for a small gauge the Phantom is asking for more attention. The difference is subtle between the two, more phantom fishing, more gravity handling. Performance at the phantom, gravity accessibility.
Title: Re: Wing Specific Hydrofoils
Post by: Solent Foiler on December 12, 2019, 08:49:42 AM
I guess 'rope' should be translated as 'chord'...