Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: red_tx on December 05, 2019, 11:03:03 AM

Title: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 05, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
I took the advice of beasho, jondrums, and others...steamroller etc that posted on another thread regarding cutting down tail wings.

Beasho and team keep me straight. I felt like I had to move my feet(and I cannot remember which way but they felt like they were both more forward and closer together from a stance standpoint(distance), if that makes sense.

Night and day difference between the stock legacy Maliko tail and the new version
-Reduced flat paddle drag (maybe in my head?)
-Increased YAW, PITCH and ROLL. Unbelievable 3D control, almost like mind control. "if you think left, you go left"
-Tail Slide - Like jondrums typed on the other thread, the tail slides like a skateboard tail slide across the coping.. if you push it, it will "break" loose and slide.
-Easier to get to FLYING from the takeoff
-Increased pumping.(%75 percent better) I, for the first time pumped half way back out on my huge standie. :)
-Faster once flying. I could not believe it, but I felt like it was even faster on the FLY due to less drag I imagine.

How I did it. (attempted to remove ~2 inches on both sides)
-tried to measure all these crazy lines on the wing !
-marked the cut lines
-bought a diamond cutting saw blade that sat on the sidelines as I could not find the little blade chuck that is supposed to be stuck in the saw. ( Dewalt 6 inch, cordless ) So I used the standard wood blade. It slightly shredded the tip on one side. (carbon fiber, shredding) You may be able to see in the picture.
-Sanded off the tips with some dirty ass sand paper.
-Pulled it all together and sealed the tips with some white trash glass.

She flew amazing and brought life to my M200 on tiny nothing piles of white. Absolutely ripping fun.

I absolutely recommend it and am considering cutting my other one seen in the images, down even smaller.

How narrow/small have you all seen them or flown them? (beasho,johndrums,steamroller)

http://gato.net/foil/bluetailhack/ (http://gato.net/foil/bluetailhack/)

happy cutting
-red
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: gzasinets on December 05, 2019, 11:11:40 AM
Looks great - thanks for sharing. I will try kai rear next time with my m200 and see if I can handle it. I am a beginner.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 05, 2019, 01:01:49 PM
Great report red_tx as I didn't what to do with my maliko as the new gl tail wing or wings are getting expensive.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 05, 2019, 02:17:05 PM
Dang, I must be doing something way wrong, because when I tried my Kai tail in the Iwa, and M200...I hated it on both of them.

I didn't at all get the feeling that it pumped better...in fact, I felt that I had no support or push back when I tried to pump it - even just to stay flying in a wave, much less pump it back out at all - and if felt that the tail would just sink and I'd pretty much just stall every time I tried to pump it.

As far as turning went, didn't notice any real difference other than the back end slide out, and when you're sliding you're not turning/carving so didn't like that feeling either...but then again I'm on an Angledfoil, so turning was never really a problem w/ the maliko tail to begin with.

Nice report though red...you've got me inspired and curious again, so maybe I'll give it another go, but this time maybe move the foil up a tad, or my feet, or possible both...heck idk. :-\
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Piros on December 05, 2019, 03:28:49 PM
Dang, I must be doing something way wrong, because when I tried my Kai tail in the Iwa, and M200...I hated it on both of them.

I didn't at all get the feeling that it pumped better...in fact, I felt that I had no support or push back when I tried to pump it - even just to stay flying in a wave, much less pump it back out at all - and if felt that the tail would just sink and I'd pretty much just stall every time I tried to pump it.


Less is best for speed and performance on a rear wing. The bigger they are is just drag , yes they give you more low speed lift but they actually hold you back on pumping with speed. The smaller rear wing actually gives you a shorter pumping arc which in turn lets you go faster. It's very easy to get used to a large rear wing for glide & stability but can make you a lazy foiler that's why you may not like the feel of a smaller rear. At first it takes a bit more energy to get everything happening with the smaller rear but when it does everything gets faster and more efficient , do that for awhile and get back on a larger rear wing again and it feels like you are towing a bucket. You just need to look at what the prone guys are using now for rears , they are just so tiny . This will filter back to the Sups. 
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 05, 2019, 09:35:44 PM
Dang, I must be doing something way wrong, because when I tried my Kai tail in the Iwa, and M200...I hated it on both of them.

I didn't at all get the feeling that it pumped better...in fact, I felt that I had no support or push back when I tried to pump it - even just to stay flying in a wave, much less pump it back out at all - and if felt that the tail would just sink and I'd pretty much just stall every time I tried to pump it.


Less is best for speed and performance on a rear wing. The bigger they are is just drag , yes they give you more low speed lift but they actually hold you back on pumping with speed. The smaller rear wing actually gives you a shorter pumping arc which in turn lets you go faster. It's very easy to get used to a large rear wing for glide & stability but can make you a lazy foiler that's why you may not like the feel of a smaller rear.
Thanks Piros...that's good advice, and I think you're spot on with the bold. I do find myself just kicking back, and just chillin' while flyin' a lot. I like to think of it as "soul foiling"...but I think "lazy foiling" is more like it. :-[ :)

Quote
At first it takes a bit more energy to get everything happening with the smaller rear but when it does everything gets faster and more efficient , do that for awhile and get back on a larger rear wing again and it feels like you are towing a bucket. You just need to look at what the prone guys are using now for rears , they are just so tiny . This will filter back to the Sups.
Cool, thanks again for the info...and I'm going to throw the Kai stab back on tmrw, and kick things in the butt to see if I can get it going like you guys are talking about.  8)
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 05, 2019, 09:44:36 PM
I started with kai and hated it so I moved to maliko and as I improved I went back to kai and like it but now I want more speed so the new gl tail will be my next move  ;D
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: jondrums on December 05, 2019, 09:56:35 PM
Red, can you post up the total width of the new tail that you like?  I decided on 420mm (16.5in) and that worked out great for me. I guessed the number based on a photo posted by someone on another forum. I was going to experiment going even more narrow, but I never got around to it and now I've sold the maliko tail, so I'm out of the game.  But for others considering, it would be great to have a record of what worked for other people.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 06, 2019, 01:11:17 PM
I remember someone mod the kai and made it narrow cord.
red_tx your mod is almost like a kai size wing but with a wider cord and have you thought about making it narrow?
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: jondrums on December 07, 2019, 01:09:33 AM
This is the original thread where I got the idea to cut the tips off the tail.  In the thread, Clamsmasher describes thinning out the chord and the thickness of the Maliko wing, and links some instagram photos of the modification.
https://forum.surfer.com/index.php?threads/rear-stabilisers-anyone-playing-around.217654/
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 07, 2019, 12:40:56 PM
Piros - interesting regarding your comment on the tail wing creating glide. If so I would imagine there is a point where the glide is negated by the drag.

I am starting to question importance of the rear tail as it pertains to flight. I am thinking now its only really helpful in takeoff/pump, and maybe some type of tail slide. Once you are on the wing(front) and you really know how to fly, do you even need the tail wing until you pump again? Do you even need it to pump? Doesn't just rocking the front wing up and down create the same pump (math, unweight fly up down weight gravity push down, create lift) action without the tail wing? maybe. BTW, I do understand aeronautics a bit as I went ape shit on RC aircraft in a previous life. A plane without a tail (Zaggi) flies just fine with elavons. (elevator/aleron combo). Since we do not have control surfaces that move on the hydrofoils(yet) I question the use of the tail wing other than pumping. (which is crucial).

I saw a thread somewhere, where dude had a single wing.

JEG: I would consider a narrower chord but I am unsure how to cut it. Hesitant to sand it that much. Thoughts? I would continue to cut the modified one and then shorten my stock blue wing.

jondrums: I updated the link of photos with measurements for both sides of the pond.



Outstanding question:
Does a smaller rear wing result in foot placement change? Possibly moving more in front of the mast with rear foot and front foot closer to mast.? Maybe its in my head?

-red
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 08, 2019, 08:11:54 AM
I am starting to question importance of the rear tail as it pertains to flight. I am thinking now its only really helpful in takeoff/pump, and maybe some type of tail slide. Once you are on the wing(front) and you really know how to fly, do you even need the tail wing until you pump again? Do you even need it to pump? Doesn't just rocking the front wing up and down create the same pump (math, unweight fly up down weight gravity push down, create lift) action without the tail wing? maybe. BTW, I do understand aeronautics a bit as I went ape shit on RC aircraft in a previous life. A plane without a tail (Zaggi) flies just fine with elavons. (elevator/aleron combo). Since we do not have control surfaces that move on the hydrofoils(yet) I question the use of the tail wing other than pumping. (which is crucial).
. . . .
Does a smaller rear wing result in foot placement change? Possibly moving more in front of the mast with rear foot and front foot closer to mast.? Maybe its in my head?

Keep on Testing!

My daughter went Berzerk on me 2 summers ago when I asked her to drag me behind the boat without the tail on my Foil.  BUT IT WORKED.

Yes - Your feet have to move backwards.  You can see my front foot on TOP of the handle of the board ~ 8 Inches back from the normal front strap position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTwOYx0Lho
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 08, 2019, 09:09:31 AM

Keep on Testing!

My daughter went Berzerk on me 2 summers ago when I asked her to drag me behind the boat without the tail on my Foil.  BUT IT WORKED.

Yes - Your feet have to move backwards.  You can see my front foot on TOP of the handle of the board ~ 8 Inches back from the normal front strap position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpTwOYx0Lho

I knew you would know something here. I remember you posting this video also. Thanks!

Where you able to pump the wing alone? w/o tail.

Another thing I noticed was that the legacy tails have all the camber on the bottom of the wing, while the front wing is on top. I saw someone type something about how they counter balance each other. Meaning front wing creates lift up and tail wing creates lift down(puke burp). Does not seem efficient, and is simply a result of folks trying to get hydrofoiling on a surfboard figured out.

I say let the front wing produce all the lift it wants(lift is only up from the wings standpoint, if the wing is pitched down towards the bottom of the ocean, its still producing lift with enough speed... rider controls pitch, keeping wing pointed in a manner that wont let it breach.

I am thinking now the tail wing, in an ideal situation, would be as small and as flat(no camber) as you can get it without jeopardizing pump.  Clearly the front wing will fly the entire setup alone as your video proves.

I am going to keep cutting down the ugly one. I cant wait to see how she feels on the IWA. (IWA being my favorite faster more maneuverable wing)

-red
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 11, 2019, 08:43:32 AM
Well, spent two days playing w/ the Iwa/Kai setup....and y'all were right...SO MUCH FUN when you just kicked it in the butt a little bit!!

Don't know if others experienced it, but to me it seemed that the more I stood in the gas, the more secure and locked in it felt, and the more you could push the turns. It also seemed as though the possibility of breaching was much reduced, as I could actually start to feel it happen before it actually did.

That's not too say I didn't breach it, but just that once I kinda knew where that threshold was...I seem to remember only going over the handlebars when I was just trying to see how fast I could get things going, and wasn't in a position/stance properly to react quick enough to get the thing back down once I heard the noise and felt the wiggle.

Sooo, since I had so much fun w/ the Kai stab, and when a good friend made me a killer deal in an GL18N stab (he switched to Armstrong foils...lucky guy!) that I'm throwing that on today, and seeing how that goes!!

New stoke for surzies!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: fatfish on December 11, 2019, 09:31:09 AM
I think that new stab is going to add another gear to the machine.  Give us a report later.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 11, 2019, 01:12:18 PM
at the moment my kai is nice and I'm thinking about modifying the maliko but soon I will have the opportunity to test the 18W and I cannot wait to see the differences 8)
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 11, 2019, 03:43:24 PM
Someone with the magical 18W tail take some pictures and post them here, or in the GF 1.5 thread.. Hard to find pics anywhere.

I am looking for a side shot to identify the chord height etc. It looks stupid simple. 18 long. pretty flat. Maybe a small amount of airfoil on top.

I am going to make an 18W out of nature. "I dont need no stinking pedestal maing!"

-red
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 11, 2019, 04:45:28 PM
Someone with the magical 18W tail take some pictures and post them here, or in the GF 1.5 thread.. Hard to find pics anywhere.

I am looking for a side shot to identify the chord height etc. It looks stupid simple. 18 long. pretty flat. Maybe a small amount of airfoil on top.

I am going to make an 18W out of nature. "I dont need no stinking pedestal maing!"

-red

I thought about getting someone to hack my Maliko, cut the wings off and join them together and set flat at neutral level at the top of the original spigot tail.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: jondrums on December 11, 2019, 11:38:08 PM
Dimensions of the GL Narrow tail
width 18.125"
chord at root 2.375"
chord at tip 2.225"
Section Thickness at root 0.283"
Section Thickness at tip 0.160"
projected area 34.5 sq in
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 12, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
The report on the GL18N compared to the Kai on the 1st test session (in 2-3' mush) was just an "eh, not so much".

Going to shim the rear screw to try to get a little more lift, and/or possibly move the whole foil forward just a just. But on said first test, no matter how hard I tried to push it, I never could get it over 12.4 mph (almost like it had a governor on it), when with the Kai, 12-15 mph was a no brainer on it depending on what I was trying to do on the wave.

Heading out for test session number two....but after seeing this....
(https://i.imgur.com/Y2hf2pF.png?1) (https://i.imgur.com/6vrzNko.png?1)
....Austin on what appears to be a GL front w/ the Kai tail in this video...
https://youtu.be/9tYe04gdhL8
...I'm wondering if the Kai stab isn't the go to setup to be on now.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 12, 2019, 12:07:20 PM
Sano, interesting on the your slow speed comment regarding the GL18N. To me it looks huge. Like too big. I would imagine that comes with drag. I do like the flatness.

Cut some off of each end of the GL18N, send pics and report back please ;)
Thanks in advance
-red
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: red_tx on December 12, 2019, 12:07:48 PM
Dimensions of the GL Narrow tail
width 18.125"
chord at root 2.375"
chord at tip 2.225"
Section Thickness at root 0.283"
Section Thickness at tip 0.160"
projected area 34.5 sq in

Thank you sir!
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 12, 2019, 01:08:26 PM
GL 18W are:
460mm wide, 70mm cord at the center and 7mm thick.

Interesting comments SanoSlatchSup about the kai versus the 18N tails. I will test this weekend and see the difference between 18W and kai and maliko with GL210 front wing.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: jondrums on December 12, 2019, 02:58:32 PM
GL 18W are:
460mm wide, 70mm cord at the center and 7mm thick.

Very interesting!  Looks like the only difference between 18W and 18N are the chord (70mm vs. 60mm).  Same span and thickness. I had assumed that the Wide vs. Narrow referred to the span.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 12, 2019, 04:23:56 PM
the word is they will no longer stock the 18N (lucky for some maybe) and for now only the 18W is available.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 12, 2019, 04:30:07 PM
GL 18W are:
460mm wide, 70mm cord at the center and 7mm thick.

Very interesting!  Looks like the only difference between 18W and 18N are the chord (70mm vs. 60mm).  Same span and thickness. I had assumed that the Wide vs. Narrow referred to the span.
Having been able to see the 18N and 18W side-by-side, it was easy to see that were the same length, so I assumed that "18" was 18" in length/span...and the "W" & "N" were the chord/width.

What I also found interesting (and unexpected), is that the GL 180 and 210 have the same thing going...same length/span, and the only real difference is the chord/width.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Thatspec on December 13, 2019, 01:41:58 AM
the word is they will no longer stock the 18N (lucky for some maybe) and for now only the 18W is available.

Heard this as well from an industry insider.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Thatspec on December 13, 2019, 01:54:04 AM
As to the Kai tail being the go to setup now:

For radical bank angles in waves, this would make sense. The 18W has breached on me in places the (upside down) Bonanza tail wouldn't have.

...Or maybe these guys just grab whatever is handy
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2019, 07:42:30 AM
I have to disagree with the KAI tail preference.  Austin is riding the Kai but watch Dave at the end of this video.  Dave is on the GL tail.

The GL tail with the GL wing is FAST.  Really fast.  The lower profile FLAT wing offers NO Yaw Stabilization.  The vertical component of the KAI tail acts like a rudder and will NOT turn as well.

I rode the KAI tail all summer with a big Mailiko 200 wing and loved it.  I would NOT go back to the Big Blue Maliko tailwing. 

However when I switched to the GL wing "My god is that board powered you're going that fast on nothing."  I say again watch Dave Kalama at the end of this video.  Hair on FIRE with a nothing wave.

https://youtu.be/9tYe04gdhL8?t=81
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2019, 07:50:55 AM
I will be sad if they stop selling the 18 Narrow tail.  I almost bought another one to CUT it down further.

My take is that it has slightly MORE downforce at speed than the KAI tail BUT it is faster.  The KAI tail also introduced a bizzare buffeting.  It was vibrating but NOT humming when pushed hard at speed.

Look at the lines.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2019, 07:52:33 AM
From above
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2019, 07:54:17 AM
Weight is about the same. 1/2 oz more for the KAI.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2019, 08:04:36 AM
The GL Combination (GL210 and GL Narrow Tail) lets you fly on NOTHING.

This is more realistic for . . . . PLANET EARTH than the stuff that Austin is doing.

Then again we all aspire to be Austin Kalama.  But check out how this thing flies the flats:

https://youtu.be/5EUGX9_zD5c
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on December 13, 2019, 04:02:18 PM
Thanks for the pics Beasho.

I just finished a foil sesh 2 to 3ft and the new 18W has a lot of lift and speeed compare to kai and maliko. Turning wise is about the same though the maliko and the kai especially turn a lot quicker.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Thatspec on December 13, 2019, 10:06:41 PM
I will be sad if they stop selling the 18 Narrow tail.  I almost bought another one to CUT it down further.

My take is that it has slightly MORE downforce at speed than the KAI tail BUT it is faster.  The KAI tail also introduced a bizzare buffeting.  It was vibrating but NOT humming when pushed hard at speed.

Look at the lines.

My Maliko tail used to hum so loudly I thought my fillings might fall out. Did the 45 degree file on the trailing edge as per Alex's video and it's much better though I still hear it a little sometimes. No hum with the 18W. I've probably mentioned before, I get this sort of "dancing" (could also call it buffeting) sensation sometimes from the Maliko at speed through turbulent waters that I don't feel with the 18W. Doesn't do anything, just interesting. Haven't tried the Kai. I couldn't really say one turns tighter than the other though, just less lift (a good thing) with the 18W. Certainly the Maliko was the ticket for learning. I won't be cutting mine though, that's the next owners option.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: 805StandUp on December 14, 2019, 08:38:56 AM

My Maliko tail used to hum so loudly I thought my fillings might fall out. Did the 45 degree file on the trailing edge as per Alex's video and it's much better though I still hear it a little sometimes. No hum with the 18W. I've probably mentioned before, I get this sort of "dancing" (could also call it buffeting) sensation sometimes from the Maliko at speed through turbulent waters that I don't feel with the 18W. Doesn't do anything, just interesting. Haven't tried the Kai. I couldn't really say one turns tighter than the other though, just less lift (a good thing) with the 18W. Certainly the Maliko was the ticket for learning. I won't be cutting mine though, that's the next owners option.

Interesting... my original Maliko 160 used to hum..my 2nd Maliko tail paired with my IWA/M200 no noise at all... and my new 18N has a high pitch wail.  If it annoys me enough I will do the 45 degree file.  Picked up a Kai tail with my GL setup a couple months ago and have been playing with tails quite a bit too.  GL180/18N, GL180/Maliko, GL180/Kai, M200/18N...etc.  Maliko most lift and also most stable, 18N seems to have best pumping, Kai seems to have tighter turning.  Still need to play more.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: Surfside on January 27, 2020, 11:22:36 AM
Wow! Thanks a bunch to all those folks that have contributed to this and previous threads! I removed 1 1/4" from each tip of the Maliko tail and what I have read is pretty much my experience. But, here is what really excited me... I can now foil in offshore winds. Woohoo!!! Prior to the modification, stall and breach was the norm for offshore conditions.

A friend made this remark after he tried his cut down yesterday. Why did we wait so long to do this?

 ;D
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on January 27, 2020, 01:03:57 PM
I have the maliko tail and don't know what to do with it because I'm liking my new GL 18W tail.
Thinking about modifying the mailko tail as either like the 18N or 18W with wing tip like I'm seeing lately in media testing the GF wing tip tails.
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: supunk on January 28, 2020, 01:06:46 AM
My modded wing tip tail. Bought cheap off ebay. Running under slung to give me a little more headroom. Have only tried it with the IWA so far. It had less lift than the M200 stab but had greater speed and pump and only needed subtle input to turn. It breached more easily in turns as I am only running the 24.5 mast hence the switch to underslung to give a little more headroom. I am interested to see how it goes with the GL210 :)
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: JEG on January 28, 2020, 12:50:08 PM
My modded wing tip tail. Bought cheap off ebay. Running under slung to give me a little more headroom. Have only tried it with the IWA so far. It had less lift than the M200 stab but had greater speed and pump and only needed subtle input to turn. It breached more easily in turns as I am only running the 24.5 mast hence the switch to underslung to give a little more headroom. I am interested to see how it goes with the GL210 :)

supunk, is that a fanatic tail wing and which type/size/model is it and how did you modified the holes (pics)? Notice you reverse the pedestal  as well like some gofoil testers Iíve seen?
Title: Re: red's Go Foil Blue Tail Hack Job
Post by: supunk on January 29, 2020, 06:19:20 AM
Hi JEG. Stab is off a Fanatic Flow foil. Stab is a 250 (not certain what that relates to?) and is 15" wing tip to wing tip. Only bought as it was cheap on ebay and I like to fiddle. I filled the back hole with a carbon fibre plug cut from carbon fibre sheet. It was glued in with epoxy and carbon fibre dust to thicken. Just redrilled to get the correct spacing. I have it underslung as I found the wing tips had a tendency to breach in turns when it was mounted on top. I only have a 24.5 mast. I have made an epoxy spacer to allow the aero shape of the stab to fit in the aero shape of the pedestal. I may have to use some spacers to get the right angle of attack. I have still to try it with the 210. I have the narrow GoFoil stab but found it a bit skittish with the 210. At present I prefer the 210 with the M200 stab. Cheers :)