Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on October 29, 2019, 12:42:22 PM
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It is still in the 30's here in Hood River so I went to the store for some winging gloves. I had no intention of buying a board, but this little beauty whistled at me and I couldn't resist. Now that the first round of brutality is mostly over...its time to suffer again :). Learning to waterstart and get cruising on this will be a project (timeframe undetermined). She is 5'2" x 21" x 2.7" at 39 liters. Bring on the flailing...
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Wow, you must like swimming in cold water a lot ;D ;D
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gluttony!!
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Are you using the Outwit now?
If so what size and how is it working?
What are you looking to gain from the smaller board?
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she is cute Admin and sees how you go with the consequences and you might want to get the divorce papers ready 8)
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Chan let you go into Big Winds by yourself? What was she thinking. Then agin, she could probably knee start that thing.
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Are you using the Outwit now?
If so what size and how is it working?
What are you looking to gain from the smaller board?
Yes, our two remaining boards are the Outwit 6'6 and the 5'10. We have been really happy with those and we plan on keeping them as light wind boards. The boards are super durable (that current bomber windsurf board construction). We haven't been gentle with them and they are hanging tough. They are nice and light for their sizes. They have a long flat section that extends from the tail to the front foot position. You can see that in the attached image (the High Roller uses the same design). This helps them accelerate and take off very early in light wind. A lot of the boards out there have a more constant surf rocker which I wouldn't want. We had that on another board and it changes things a lot. These have a deck which is nicely level with the base so the foil is correctly positioned without shims at all positions in the track. That is a big deal. Our other board rode nose up (and that angle changed at different track positions). The stock inserts don't extend far enough forward for me but I added angled NSI stick-on inserts and that did the trick. I plan on doing that to this new board once I figure out where they need to be. I also would prefer a flat deck (these are all concave) but obviously that was not a deal killer :) .
The new board is 10 lbs lighter. It weighs 8.8 lbs and has almost no weight in the nose. I love that idea! Even on Chan's 5'10 the shorter, lighter weight nose feels awesome. Winging around with near zero excess is the primary goal. Once you are flying the board is just baggage. It gets blown around, interferes with the water and in part it controls you. The more of that we can take away the greater the soaring experience. It is also 10 lbs that your foil and your wing don't need to lift (6% less total payload in my case). That is a cheap diet. It is less pull on your leash. It tucks under my arm with room to spare. No need for a handle. No goofy carry style. Board goes under the upwind arm with the foil facing into the wind, wing goes in the downwind hand. Simplicity. Carry the board nose first, it doesn't matter anymore. It can fit in the back of any car. It fits in the passenger front seat of our Subaru. That is how it came home from the shop as the back was full. It will travel anywhere super easily. Go to town with the bubble wrap in a shortboard case and check it.
(https://pcdn.piiojs.com/i/rxizc9/vw,1200,vh,0,r,1,pr,2,wp,1/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.slingshotsports.com%2FImages%2Fitems%2F19731_main-1.jpg%3Fresizeid%3D2%26resizeh%3D1200%26resizew%3D1200)
(https://pcdn.piiojs.com/i/rxizc9/vw,1102,vh,1200,r,1,pr,2,wp,1/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.slingshotsports.com%2FImages%2Fitems%2F19721_main-1.jpg%3Fresizeid%3D2%26resizeh%3D1200%26resizew%3D1200)
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Chan let you go into Big Winds by yourself? What was she thinking. Then agin, she could probably knee start that thing.
They do a 4'6" x 19.8" x 2.7" 32L and a 4'0" x 19" x 2.8" 29L. The real question is which one she will get :). It took all of my willpower not to bring all 3 home from Windance. This 5'2 will almost certainly be too big for for Chan to sink. My shortboards were ~29 liters and they were fine for me to submerge and crouch on (chest deep). They were like funboards for Chan. She could sit on them high and dry :) . I had a classic style fish that was 50 liters. That was the same way for me. I could force it under and crouch on it but it was really hard to do. It wanted to squirt out from under me. I hope that 39 liter will be a nice middle ground. What could go wrong ? :).
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-cam6oqe/images/stencil/2560w/products/6617/18726/Slingshot_High_Roller_Sizes__10996.1543418043.JPG?c=2)
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You bought me a new board, awesome :) I see another purchase in the near future. High Roller is seeming like an appropriate name. Let's see how long that willpower holds. At least the wind is free.
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I have a 4’9 x 20 x 3 to try myself. I expect to fail with it. I don’t have youth on my side.
I’m betting on this plan: Thickness is harmless, other than making duck dives harder. I don’t need to duck dive my winging board. The benefit of thickness, besides the obvious, is volume makes a board repel water like an Iglo cooler. Pops onto foil easier. Thin isn’t needed for surfing, we don’t surf the board, we surf the foil.
This philosophy has served me well with SUP foil board design too. Corky pops onto foil quicker.
Short and corky is my thing. ;D
I’m not alone with these thoughts. Look at the boys in South Padre.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B35g5q7Hvqi/?igshid=hmhw7058nfsv
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I have a 4’9 x 20 x 3 to try myself. I expect to fail with it. I don’t have youth on my side.
You have experience :). You are going to get it. The water here is still 55 which is comfortable in my 4.5/3.5. The last few days have been getting into the low 20's at night and not making it much over 40 for highs. We do have a week of 50's coming after today though and if that happens at a location that will work (light current, wind relatively near shore, easy downwind out) I am ready to get started.
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Yeah, but is Chan going to let you use her new board?
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Yeah, but is Chan going to let you use her new board?
Chan decided to go with the 4'6" x 19.8" x 2.7" 32L. I am going to pick that up today. She has let me do a lot of stupid things over the lat 30 years...but never alone. If there is something ridiculous going on she is going to be in on it :).
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All padded up and ready to go.
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Yesterday was day one for waterstart boot camp. The wind lined up pretty nicely at a spot that has an easy downwind out. The air warmed up to over 50, the water is still over 50 and it was strong 3.5 Swing conditions. My plan was to do a few downwind drifts and hike back up with my gear.
I took out the larger of the two new boards (5'2 39 Liter) with my Axis 1020 foil. Wow, is it a pleasure to carry that rig. The wind was really gusty over the bank path and this relatively small board was awesome. No major achievements on day one, but I learned a ton. First off, it is a very settled and calm feeling to straddle a smaller submerged board even in stronger wind and chop. It just kind of hangs out and locks in. I like that a lot. Lifting the wing overhead in that straddle position is very straight forward. You can reel it in, get your hands on the handles, hang out and drag in either direction. As long as there is wind, seated self rescue is going to be fine. Flipping the wing while seated is also no problem but it does take a little more force and planning because you are sitting deeper and it drags more.
I do need to make some gear adjustments, though. The 39 liter board is too large to comfortably sink at my weight, at least with the large 1020 foil. I could force it underwater and sit on it navel deep, but it takes a lot of force to get it under and it has way more cork than a shortboard surfboard (which I think is going to be roughly the volume I need). It really fought me when I pressed it deeper and went to stand on it. It wanted to squirt out in any direction that it could (and it eventually did). Also, the big 1020 foil was way too much (at least at this point in my learning). When I was butt cruising (does that sound OK?) I had to really limit my (already slow) speed or the foil would start to kick in and drop me off the back.
It is clear that I have some experimenting to do and that nailing the volume is going to be the big deal. I did get the feeling that with the right volume that this will be very workable. I am going to switch to the 4'6 32 liter for the next round (hopefully today) I think that 7 liter drop may be enough. I am also going to put on the 1000 or 900 wing to limit that early lift.
I am really stoked to be underway with this.
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I played with my little board for the first time yesterday. It came out 5’1 x 25 80 liters. A pro could SUP with it.
I installed a handle, but removed it. I can wrap my arm around it.
Played in the river with it, waiting on a storm to make enough wind to give it a go. Storm didn’t cooperate.
First challenge was how to mount it. Could not throw my leg over the back with my leash attached to the back of my harness. Had to throw my leg over the front. That was weird and challenging.
Board sinks a few inches. Once I got to the knee start position and wing in my hand, the forward speed was so good, it came up high and dry and felt like it would be easy to stand and ride with real wind. It was blowing 8. This is small enough for me. I know I can get home on it. I can surface ride a short bit, should a big wind hole hit. Friday looks good to ride it.
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Admin, I have 51 litre Slingshot Skywalker foilboard that use for light wind kiting. I installed an NSI glue on pad that lets you attach a foam foothook. I did this because it allows me to keep the board attached to my feet sideways while starting. Once up, I am strapless and not using the hook. I wonder if you did this, you could have the board attached to your feet sideways while flying the wing and then slowly tip the board down until you are standing on it submerged. The front hook should keep the board from wandering out from under you. I have not tried it with the wing yet. I was planning to after I saw this post but it is to cold here now. Just a thought I had not sure if it would work winging but worked great starting the large board kiting.
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Yes! I want to learn that way as well once I get front footstraps on these boards. I plan to do that as soon as I know where they might go. I love front footstraps. I spent a couple of minutes trying that (conventional waterstart) without footstraps yesterday and unsurprisingly it was a no go. Nothing to hold the board in place. It seemed like it would work with straps though. I think that the sink start will be more reliable once mastered and will be possible in lighter winds as well. That will take some time :)
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I played with my little board for the first time yesterday. It came out 5’1 x 25 80 liters. A pro could SUP with it.
Dwight,
How much does it weigh in at? How does weight compare to your 5’6” , 102 liter board? Thanks!
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Dwight,
How much does it weigh in at? How does weight compare to your 5’6” , 102 liter board? Thanks!
The 5’1 was 10.5 lbs before pad. Never weighed the 5’6
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The 5’1 was 10.5 lbs before pad. Never weighed the 5’6
Thanks. No idea how small I want to go on the next board. I’ll be very interested to see how the 80L board works out for you
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Dibs on any of DW’s experimenting boards he decides to sell! ;D
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I have not tried it with the wing yet. I was planning to after I saw this post but it is to cold here now. Just a thought I had not sure if it would work winging but worked great starting the large board kiting.
It's too cold here too, but that didn't stop Admin from going out and flopping around in nasty east wind. I stood on the beach and watched for a while. Said "Maui" and bailed for a beer and some Buffalo wings in a nice warm restaurant on the river--The Lunch Of Weenies.
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It's too cold here too, but that didn't stop Admin from going out and flopping around in nasty east wind. I stood on the beach and watched for a while. Said "Maui" and bailed for a beer and some Buffalo wings in a nice warm restaurant on the river--The Lunch Of Weenies.
The calendar is not on my side here and I am not ready to put this down yet. I am still hoping for a few more days (or at least a second day) of flailing before the weather says "your done". I don't mind cruising on the big board when it is colder because that is a mostly dry affair but this water start means submerged water time and even if the mind is willing I need a little higher temps for the parts to cooperate :).
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Here is great example of the classic style. The rider wrote:
Same day and setup as the other day. This is similar to the normal Water start you know from Windsurf and Kitesurf, I only manage to do it when there is a lot of wind. I only make the water start like this when I just crashed and I'm still in the foot straps with plenty of power in the Wing. Here you really need to push in the Foil-Rail to have enough resistance and power up the wing.
Setup:
5,3 Catch 34L
Gong Wing 5M
Allvator 65cm M
18-25Knots
https://www.facebook.com/moritzmauchg103/videos/10218655281360606/
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Here is the same setup with the sink style. He wrote: Basically I sit on the board with the Wing in one hand. I push the board under the water and squad on it. I put pressure on the board and stand up (underwater), ounce I'm stable, I bring the Wing over my head and power it up. Slowly the board pops out of the water, I put the front foot into the straps and off I go;) . I put a bit of back pressure on the back leg, so the nose can find its way to the surface, it definitely help in strong wind and good balance you can probably go quite low on volume, but I felt like 33L is a good balance for me.
https://www.facebook.com/moritzmauchg103/videos/10218632393028412/
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One question I have about all this rush to smaller board volume/length/weight. Are you all consistent now with harder moves/transitions like upwind tacks heelside-to-toeside and toeside-to-heelside, fully luffed downwind/surf riding, backwinded riding, small jumps, extended one hand riding, jibe with clew side hold, riding significantly under or over powered, etc?
I see guys like Patrice Guénolé at Gong or Philippe Caner at Horue, or Alan Cadiz, doing some amazing freestyle stuff on pretty decent size floaty boards. Seems like you’d want to get pretty competent before jumping to a full blown sinker or even a “knee start semi sinker”. I started with a 5’8” 114 L board (78ish kg). I think I’d like to go a little smaller but I’m definitely not in a rush to do so before getting a lot better first, and even then I don’t think I would be in rush to get rid of the larger board.
(Not to sound harsh but it sort of reminds me of the “ole guys” with money chasing every latest technology upgrade they see being ridden by sponsored kids, or seriously talented middle age guys, who could probably ride crappy junk at a higher skill level than said average “ole guys” [myself included] might ever achieve. Of course, far better to be an ole guy pining for a tiny wing board than sitting at home staring at the tube, or as Billy Joel would say, polishing the fender!)
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Hi OBX,
Good points but I look at it very differently.
We started talking about waterstarts here before we had seen anyone doing them or before we had seen anyone riding any boards other than large sup foilboards. This is a natural and in my mind it will definitely be a part of the sport for most riders. To me this seems like it will viewed as a basic beginner-moving-to-intermediate move at a later date just like it is with windsurfing and kiting.
The knee start with a large board is great for light wind or flat water but in Gorge swell and higher wind it is not as fun. Knee starting on a small board is certainly doable, but at that point it seems like going all the way to a waterstart will be more functional in a wider variety of conditions.
I also don't question that all of us here given a little time will work out tacks, jibes, transitions, one hand luffing, downwind carving, chop hops, etc. Those are basic intermediate moves in all watersports. I can't say with certainty that we will get there but I would be disappointed if we don't. We are brand new foilers and obviously brand new wing foilers. There is a ton still to learn. We know that all of this will take time. That is what the second season will be for :) The waterstart seems like a really cool part of that to me.
I have been talking to a few of the guys who have the waterstart down and they have all said that it took a while to learn. They have all said that getting the volume right is critical. I am sure there will be some weight to volume suggestions in the future but right now there are none and that means experimenting.
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So I rode the 5’1 today with the 5m. Wind was a sketchy 10-17 for trying the little board.
The only real challenge with the board, is the balance climbing on it, then dealing with the balance of something so short and sunk 4 to 5 inches underwater. The nose can go down and you fall off the front, or the side rolls, and you fall off the side. You need about 2 seconds of balance on it to grab the wing and get to the handles. Once you’ve got the handles, everything becomes easy. Getting to my feet is only slightly harder due to the short length.
Once standing, you’re set. It pops onto to foil with one flick of the wrist. Just amazing how quick and drag free it feels. I can even switch feet skimming the water without fear of falling.
It’s probably best for 4.2m conditions or steady 5m wind. It’s likely to be the board Jacky uses everyday in any wind. I guess I need to hurry and make her one.
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Butt Cruising does NOT sound okay.
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If you spent a big chunk of your life windsurfing in the gorge then waterstarting is the first thing you learned. Not an option. Uphauling is a low success rate thing here that pretty much only works for the super-talented with balance like a cat. When I hear about people standing up on their board and then pulling their wing up I feel a little jealous. There no way I can do that, even on Mr. Fugly. I plan to get by with knee starting and I'm kind of doomed to bigger boards, but our goto spot for wingsurfing is Swell City. 35 mph gusting to 45 with head high ultra-short wind swell is more or less standard all summer. If I thought I could pull it off I'd be finding a board I could sink without it trying to get away. The little board isn't some kind of double reverse penis envy thing. That's going to be what it takes to waterstart reliably.
If you can waterstart reliably anywhere you'll be able to attempt more difficult stuff, if you can't you'll be wondering "can I get back up again" every time you try something.
I think locals would agree this a moderate gorge day, and it's at the Hatchery, which is generally a bit less nutty than Swell City. And it's a fun video of the master.
https://youtu.be/pZ72ZkdWtFk
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Dave is on another level in that dw vid and great control on that iwa wing.
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So I rode the 5’1 today with the 5m. Wind was a sketchy 10-17 for trying the little board.
The only real challenge with the board, is the balance climbing on it, then dealing with the balance of something so short and sunk 4 to 5 inches underwater. The nose can go down and you fall off the front, or the side rolls, and you fall off the side. You need about 2 seconds of balance on it to grab the wing and get to the handles. Once you’ve got the handles, everything becomes easy. Getting to my feet is only slightly harder due to the short length.
Once standing, you’re set. It pops onto to foil with one flick of the wrist. Just amazing how quick and drag free it feels. I can even switch feet skimming the water without fear of falling.
It’s probably best for 4.2m conditions or steady 5m wind. It’s likely to be the board Jacky uses everyday in any wind. I guess I need to hurry and make her one.
That all sounds good, Dwight. It is pretty amazing how things stabilize when you get your hands on the handles. Post up some pics of the board!
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If you can waterstart reliably anywhere you'll be able to attempt more difficult stuff, if you can't you'll be wondering "can I get back up again" every time you try something.
That right there is what will keep our first season beginner stoke going for years. We have all of this stuff in front of us. It doesn't matter if it is your first kneestart, a jibe, a waterstart or a loop. If you have something ahead of you that you are super interested in learning the enjoyment level stays at 10. We did the windsurfing freestyle competitions here and Maui for years. In themselves they were all right (short heats with a lot of waiting) but they were awesome for keeping the stoke up. There was always a hard new move to work on. I am happy to have that back.
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What are the benefits of riding a shorter foil board? Since the goal is to lift out of the water and ride the foil, does the board size matter? If a larger board makes it easier to get going etc, why make it any harder for yourself with a small board?
Just curious....
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Since the goal is to lift out of the water and ride the foil, does the board size matter? If a larger board makes it easier to get going etc, why make it any harder for yourself with a small board?
Just curious....
Good Q. I posted this snip below earlier in the thread. I would turn your question around. Since your goal will be to spend all of your session on the foil, why would you choose to carry around the extra 10, 15, lbs. and all of the extra bulk? It will take plenty of flailing and some gear experimentation, but the benefit seems enormous. I would also add that I think that eventually it will be a way more efficient start in many conditions...and that it looks fun!
The new board is over 11 lbs lighter. It weighs 7.4 lbs (edited for the 4'6) and has almost no weight in the nose. I love that idea! Even on Chan's 5'10 the shorter, lighter weight nose feels awesome. Winging around with near zero excess is the primary goal. Once you are flying the board is just baggage. It gets blown around, interferes with the water and in part it controls you. The more of that we can take away the greater the soaring experience. It is also 11 lbs that your foil and your wing don't need to lift (6% less total payload in my case). That is a cheap diet. It is less pull on your leash. It tucks under my arm with room to spare. No need for a handle. No goofy carry style. Board goes under the upwind arm with the foil facing into the wind, wing goes in the downwind hand. Simplicity. Carry the board nose first, it doesn't matter anymore. It can fit in the back of any car. It fits in the passenger front seat of our Subaru. That is how it came home from the shop as the back was full. It will travel anywhere super easily. Go to town with the bubble wrap in a shortboard case and check it.
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What are the benefits of riding a shorter foil board? Since the goal is to lift out of the water and ride the foil, does the board size matter? If a larger board makes it easier to get going etc, why make it any harder for yourself with a small board?
Just curious....
Much easier to turn, much easier to pump. A nose hanging out even just a few feet ahead of your front foot is a big pendulum that you have to work to reverse. Every inch shorter makes a difference. You'd think wider wouldn't matter but narrow helps a lot too. Mr. Fugly was a great board for me to start on at 7'2"X33" but Little Fugly at 6"10 and about 30" wide is much easier to get up on foil, pump, turn, and can splash down and pop right back up where Mr. fugly might stick, though it has a nasty tendency to sink the nose out of sight when I'm standing on it. Not enough nose volume. The locals here think little Fugly is huge. Mr. Fugly is a battleship.
I think I can go a bit shorter and narrower for wingfoiling since the wing helps stability immensely once it's flying and I don't need to stand and paddle, I just need to kneel without the nose disappearing. Volume distribution will help with that.
That's all fine for me and probably as far as I go, but if you want to truly waterstart you need a board volume and distribution that you can sink easily without having it try to squirt away.
And then the first time you see what prone foilers get to do with a wave on a board in the sub 5' and even sub 4' range you get a big shot of FOMO. They can turn on a dime and give you nine cents change, and they pump merrily back out a distance that would send me straight to the ER. They turn and pump better right from the first time they get up on foil. I know a prone foiler who weighs more than me who ripped better with a week of experience than most SUP foilers with a year or more under their belt. Yeah, sure, he was a good shortboarder before he started foiling, but he's a GREAT foiler. When he carries the silly little thing his board almost disappears under his arm.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49039029813_a77da82040.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49039533736_db4429a24e.jpg)
5’1 x 25
So today, Jacky was foiling with her 5’8 and 3.5m Swing in the harness, then the wind died. So that’s when I decided it would be ideal to test the 5’1 on her, to see if it could be her everyday all around board. I handed her the 4.2m Swing and sent her out to sink or swim. She knee started and popped onto to foil with no effort. After her jibe, she fell and failed a knee start in the light wind. She put her hands on the deck and just stood up. Rode back no problem. She felt it flies automatically and claimed it as her board. Short and corky auto flies.
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Looks awesome DW, hope to get up your way next week to give it a try. Good to hear Jacky is back on the water.
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Since the goal is to lift out of the water and ride the foil, does the board size matter? If a larger board makes it easier to get going etc, why make it any harder for yourself with a small board?
Just curious....
Good Q. I posted this snip below earlier in the thread. I would turn your question around. Since your goal will be to spend all of your session on the foil, why would you choose to carry around the extra 10, 15, lbs. and all of the extra bulk? It will take plenty of flailing and some gear experimentation, but the benefit seems enormous. I would also add that I think that eventually it will be a way more efficient start in many conditions...and that it looks fun!
The new board is over 11 lbs lighter. It weighs 7.4 lbs (edited for the 4'6) and has almost no weight in the nose. I love that idea! Even on Chan's 5'10 the shorter, lighter weight nose feels awesome. Winging around with near zero excess is the primary goal. Once you are flying the board is just baggage. It gets blown around, interferes with the water and in part it controls you. The more of that we can take away the greater the soaring experience. It is also 11 lbs that your foil and your wing don't need to lift (6% less total payload in my case). That is a cheap diet. It is less pull on your leash. It tucks under my arm with room to spare. No need for a handle. No goofy carry style. Board goes under the upwind arm with the foil facing into the wind, wing goes in the downwind hand. Simplicity. Carry the board nose first, it doesn't matter anymore. It can fit in the back of any car. It fits in the passenger front seat of our Subaru. That is how it came home from the shop as the back was full. It will travel anywhere super easily. Go to town with the bubble wrap in a shortboard case and check it.
Ok Admin that does make sense and once I learn this sport ( 1st foil session behind jet ski on Tuesday) I will probably realize the same. My windsurfers are mostly sinkers so I’ll probably be bumping down from my 115 liter Fanatic SKY in time
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Yesterday was fun. It was a balmy 53 degrees and it was 23 to 30 MPH. This was a "normal" direction West wind. The water is still 51 so all was good in the world. I started on my 6'6 and the 3.5 Swing with the Axis 920 wing. That felt great. There were some holes but the 920 was cruising through them like they weren't there. I love that wing. I wanted to check out how our 900 wing would do in the same condition so I changed it out. I had only used that one once before. My "test" didn't work out that well because the wind filled in and picked up a little so it was really steady by the time I launched again. Still, that 900 is awesome too. It got right up in that wind and stayed going like a champ. I don't know what its range is yet but it was amazing in that good wind.
I used my big board for a great little session and then came in for some abuse. I set up the 4'2 32 L with the 920 foil and headed back out. The spot I was at is actually perfect for learning this because there is another out 500 feet downwind and there is a sidewalk back to the start which I am calling the shamewalk. The smaller foil helped a lot. The wind was a little off shore so I straddled, flew the wing and butt cruised (sorry Bill) out the windline. No getting dumped off the back like on the 1020. This isn't pretty but it is an easy way to get home in a pinch. The little board pushes down much more easily than the 39 Liter. It is probably still a bit more volume than I need. I can see why the kids are looking for 25-29 L. That seems like it might make things super relaxed and still allow the board to surface well. This one will go under with a hard push but it wants to immediately fight back, even under full weight. I had to adjust my push point way forward and get my stance further forward than expected to get on the balance point. Even so, if it would come off center even a little on any axis, I could feel it start to go and there was no English that was going to stop it. Once it did, it would explode out of the water. So, for most of my half hour drift it would have looked like I was doing launch tests (on myself). Towards the end of my drift I was able to get squatting, reel in the wing and get to the handle but the explosion still came before I had the strut handles. In short, I need to find another few seconds. Next I am going to try again with the 900 foil (which has a little less float). One thing I can say is that this could be an epic workout regimen. I was toast when I got home :)
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Admin, have you tried using the floating wing as a balance point when getting situated? Like putting a hand on top of the leading edge. That way the leading edge handle is right there and no reeling is required.
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Admin, have you tried using the floating wing as a balance point when getting situated? Like putting a hand on top of the leading edge. That way the leading edge handle is right there and no reeling is required.
I couldn't work that out because I have to use both hands on the board's rails to force it underwater. I am not sure how that would work with the float of the leading edge. Possibly I am missing something? I am going to borrow one of the Dwarfcraft 4'6 boards. That is 25 liters and looks like it has very even volume placement which seems like it will help as well. Too small will be hard to get back to the surface but it will be nice to know the low limit.
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but if you want to truly waterstart you need a board volume and distribution that you can sink easily without having it try to squirt away.
That is exactly what I am feeling. I just saw this over at Seabreeze. Designed for prone but these volumes are matching up to what I am feeling. Our purposes are different but I am thinking that what they are labeling as an expert prone board range may be a very good reference for easy sinkability and control underwater. That would put me at 23 to 27 liters and Chan at 16 to 19 liters. 32 Liters is feeling too corky but not by much. 39 was impossible for me. My shortboard surfboards were right around 29 liters and that worked well for sink and stand but I was 10 lbs heavier then. I think that might be the range. Stoked to try this out next week.
(https://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/15803434.jpg)
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We had some great days on the Wing down in sunny Mexico. We were a little worried because the forecast went to junk right before our trip but sure enough the wings made it super fun. The wind was very onshore and pretty light but even so we were able to wing all but one day. We took turns on my Slingshot Outwit 6'6 which was perfect for that condition. We also brought a Slingshot 4'6 Dwarfcraft and a 3'6 Dwarfcraft with us to continue on with mission waterstart. We had a big always empty pool (no bar :) ) right behind our place so we did some time on the boards without foils (the pool was only 4 feet deep). The volume on these guys feels really good. This was a huge improvement over the High Rollers which were too corky for us. We could not get those underwater with any consistency. The bigger Dwarf is 25 liters and the little one is 19. The 3'6 sits a little deeper and is more comfortable to squat on for me. I am about chest deep sitting on my heels. It still surfaces on demand. There is a trick to getting on which took me a half hour to figure out but after that it became really consistent. Once on my feet I practiced spinning circles, letting the nose surface and dismounting. Chan can squat really low but even so the 3'6 still has her with the board just below the surface. She is going to need a little less volume. Maybe the Micro Dwarfcraft. I think that I am in a good spot now volume wise. We have some Slingshot foot hooks from our Outwit boards and I know where to put those now. I think they will be a great addition.
We really wanted to get some side-shore conditions and do some practice drifts but that didn't happen. That will have to wait for spring. Maybe Mauritius :).
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How about some photos from Mexico ;D
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We were here. We didn't take any pics but there are a zillion online. You don't realize the magnitude of the selfie stick craze until you are in a full tourism venue. Not a waking moment goes undocumented from 30 angles. It was cool and we may do it again with he grandkids but it is a little unsettling to me.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cciLV7MrboY/maxresdefault.jpg)
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Boss... Clarify, to someone who does not have the experience to visualize your words... You are able to stand on the board while it is underwater, positioning your feet, then, getting the wing powered up, ja?
I am pretty sure I understand the business about 'too corky' - the volume exceeds your ability to keep sunk/stable... How much (%) stability does the foil add?
Then, how much of you is above the waterline? You mention foothooks, but you were able to do this without straps? My primary concern: wing re-starts. I'd have to have a backpack to accommodate gear for hiking out of saltwater marshes ..a nasty slog at best. Thanks.
Jim
(single line typing is coming out double?)
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Boss, I'm a visual learner ...in 'settings' cut the playback speed to .25 ...is the first 5 seconds of this video what you are doing? Is your board also 'nose high'? Would you think that board appears corky? Sorry for the ignorance, but foiling can look like murky water will Bull sharks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz-0QnJHM5A&feature=emb_logo
Jim
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Jim, watch Billy on the f-one Wing Board knee start. This is a board in the volume range perfect for those not living in the Gorge or Maui. It’s sinking, but not enough to make it difficult. This is what starting my personal wing board is like.
Also learned a tip off Instagram from onemauiday, making knee starts easier on the thigh muscles. Twist your hips and balls of your feet sideways, as you stand. It puts your legs in a more powerful position.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5OkkQcnrDm/?igshid=1qyzclig2nczd
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Boss... Clarify, to someone who does not have the experience to visualize your words... You are able to stand on the board while it is underwater, positioning your feet, then, getting the wing powered up, ja?
I am pretty sure I understand the business about 'too corky' - the volume exceeds your ability to keep sunk/stable... How much (%) stability does the foil add?
Then, how much of you is above the waterline? You mention foothooks, but you were able to do this without straps? My primary concern: wing re-starts. I'd have to have a backpack to accommodate gear for hiking out of saltwater marshes ..a nasty slog at best. Thanks.
Jim
Hi Jim,
With the two Dwarfcraft boards I am able to stand on the boards underwater. Once mounted it feels very stable. I am chest deep on the little one which seems ideal and very well supported. It is standing in a pretty tight ball. My knees are in my armpits and my butt is just above heel height. The board pressing up on the soles of your feet holds it very firmly in place. The board has a great pad and the traction is solid. My feet are balanced right on the existing inserts on these boards so that will be nice for using the foot hooks. Once standing, it is no problem to reposition your feet through a little heel-then-toe-shimmy. So if I use the outer inserts for the hooks I will be able to wiggle out to them. I think that being able to press outward on the vertical part of the hooks will be great. Full straps seem like they would be awesome but harder to get into. I practiced pushing the board deep with my feet by standing and then allowing it to come back up by crouching again. That feels good.
To get on I have to force the board underwater with an arm push to full arm length. My hands are gripping the nose and the tail of the board on the far side of the centerline (centered causes problems when you go to get a foot on). I then put my right foot on the deck. That partially mounted position is actually extremely stable. You can hang out there. Then I push down hard on the nose and put the left foot on. You can use your hands to gain balance at that point and once you do it is all good. I can mount regular or goofy this way but I always start right foot first.
One of our days in Mexico was too light to actually wingfoil so we brought the 3'6 to the ocean and mounted it with a foil (Axis 920 on a 75 mast). We also rigged a 5.0 Swing to see if we could get it in hand with the smaller boards. The foil did make the board feel more stable. We were able to reel in the wing and lift it overhead as well. It took a half hour of failing to get there but there but after some position tweaking it started working. In the process I discovered that I actually can use the wing for balance (as was suggested above). When I get into the one foot on position my right hand is now free and my left hand is still holding the nose. That left hand has the wing leash on it. So, if I tug the leash with my right hand the leading edge handle pulls right into it. Having the stability from the floating wing makes getting the second foot on really nice as well. The wind on this day wasn't strong enough to hold the wing up so we were eventually just falling off after supporting the wing for a while but it made me really hopeful.
Getting the board to surface under control will be the hard part. We haven't tried that yet. I imagine it will take a lot of fails to get there. I am just pleased to have gotten the early gear stuff worked out to where I can begin working on it.
PS: There are two waterstarts that I am seeing guys doing on sinker boards. One is the knee variety like in the vid you posted. I think that looks awesome as well and it allows use of a little higher volume board as well (just under the surface). That one won't work for me though. I can't use my legs like that any longer. The second kind is starting from an underwater stand. This vid (next post) show it best.
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https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/494810328013650/
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Big thanks, guys! I'd have difficulty with that Jupiter launch, Dwight. I'm a crip with an INOP left foot due to back issues, so it takes me an inordinately long time, atop a forward over-balance, to stand on anything, whereas with kites - the buggers yanked me up with my feet already established in footstraps. I cannot go back to kites, nor do I want the setup complications compared to these wings, but I love the wind.
I theorize - if I can do a semi-sinker start (without the board wanting 180 on me) I can get the wing high enough to help stabilize me as I slowly gain forward momentum. I tried a couple of boards, pretending the wing was a kite, with me on my back in the shallows ..eh-eh, fail. It seems it would have taken a very strong wind ...while, blowing you out of position in thick chop. My arms were not long enough (flaccid extensions do not work) to sufficiently elevate and angle the wing to gain power. I still think it doable...
Boss, "I practiced pushing the board deep with my feet by standing and then allowing it to come back up by crouching again." That's the action I was imagining. It will be a while before our water is warm enough to make that happen, but I hope to get South for some boat tow instruction. Thanks again.
Jim
I don't care whether it is choosing a decent paddle, board or learning a technique, this forum is a godsend of information. Thanks to all who participate.
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Hey Jim,
I have a similar situation. I have trouble getting signals through to my feet and legs due to MS. Some motions are just missing now. My mind sends the signal but I get no leg response. This is much worse in my right leg (and both get worse when I am hot). My legs still do a lot of things just fine but certain motions are gone. Once I am standing most of wingfoiling is really good for me (unaffected). I can't tell you how happy I am for that. I had written off windsports (which have been a huge part of my life) so this a kind of a miracle. For that reason I worked out a different way of doing the knee start. I can't get up from a kneel without using my hands. So I get in runners stance and start from there. It works really well but it has some drawbacks as well. Kneestarts on a small board in big swell get very difficult. That is why this is so appealing to me.
I put my bad foot on first because I don't need to get it right immediately. If that foot lands on the board wrong (and it usually does) I just sink the board a little again and reposition it under my foot. This takes the burden off my foot doing it right. Then I go for my second foot. The whole process is pretty quick and if it fails every few times, it is not hard to just start again.
Chan and I take our grandkids to the local pool on the weekends. The pool has kickboards and those are great to practice on. Most pools have something like this that will work well. It sounds weird but you can stand on one underwater even though they are very low volume. You can also stack 2 or 3 for more volume. This is actually really fun and it will tell you with no commitment if your body will like this. One kickboard is very easy to sink and doesn't give a lot of up-push but it will give you a great feel. It will be hard at first but play with it for a half hour and you will get it.
(https://sep.yimg.com/ay/yhst-51964671464679/theraquatics-senior-kickboard-9.gif)
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Hi Admin,
I have been eagerly following your progress on the high roller project as I now find myself spending most of the year inland.The summertime light air conditions are really marginal, mostly too light to wing. The fall and the spring it blows, but it’s crazy, like 25 with gusts to 60 crazy, so it seems like if I want to continue with the wing a small board might be a real advantage.
I have been a shortboard surfer my whole life, so I have lots of experience killing time standing on boards underwater. I can see how the waterstart could work and it just seems to make more sense in a lot of ways. I have to confess, however, that I don’t recall there being a huge difference in balancing a 30ltr hp board vs. a 38ltr Uber groveler(I am around 90KG). From your last couple posts I understand that you are leaning towards a very small board. I would think from my surfing experience that there might big a bigger volume range that would work, depending on operator skills/injuries/etc.
I realize that it’s hard to discern a lot from video’s, but I think some people are doing the crouching waterstart on boards that have a lot higher volume ratio than .35. I know that when I am just sitting waiting for waves on a board at .35 ratio I am into the water almost to my armpits(take a look at the famous shot of Mick Fanning and the shark at J-Bay, he rides around .35). When I look at the f-one video you just posted above it looks like that guy is pretty low in the water, so he could well be riding around.35. However, take a look at the crazy good guy in a video you posted awhile ago in a waterstart thread[It’s always beautiful at Vata cove(My French is pretty minimal)] He seems to be riding a lot more volume. If you watch when he takes a rest before his third waterstart he is sitting straddling the board and he is way up out of the water, as is the nose of the board. He messes with the wing etc. and the whole time he is sitting much higher than I sit on my grovel boards which are huge 37,38ltrs(.42 or a bit higher). I would think I would have to be riding at least another 10ltrs more to sit that high.
I get that everything is personal preference, but just for the sake of those of us who don’t ever talk to the pros or have the resources to try several boards on our way to the right volume do you think the super low volume is really the ticket for everybody? In some ways it would by nice to just bolt a foil onto a skimboard and have it work, but around here where the wind can also drop from crazy to nothing, the prone paddle back towing your wing would be a lot easier with 40ltrs than 20.
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Hi Surly,
Those great questions and I wish that I had firm answers :). My few days of messing with this are the sum total of my knowledge.
You know the feeling of standing on a submerged shortboard, so that is going to be your best reference. It is a pretty comfortable thing on a board that works for you. You aren't really struggling to get the board underwater and it wants to stay put pretty well. Is that your experience as well? That is how I am feeling on the smaller Dwarfcraft boards (particularly the 3'6). The bigger boards (both of the High Roller's) felt very different than that at my weight. It was much more work to get them down and I couldn't get them to stay put underwater. I felt like a partially submerged kneestart would have been possible for someone of my size (but not for me). When I got on the Dwarfcraft it was, "ahh, there you are".
I watched the video that you mentioned (pasted below) and saw the same thing. He is making the squat start work on a floaty board. That board is 39 Liters. He is also doing that start in the straps. Incredible. I am afraid that one is out of reach for me. Thankfully, I do see most of the guys doing their squat starts in a much deeper (chest deep) position. That is what I am used to from standing on a shortboard and that is the style that has me hopeful. I feel pretty flexible for 53 but 17 I am not. I can sit on my heels flat footed with my feet at shoulder width with my knees in my armpits but moving my feet wider (even an inch out from there) starts to get uncomfortable. Squatting low like that in the footstraps would require massive flexibility.
I am not at all sure that I have the best board shape for this or that these volumes are even accurate. They may well be but I wouldn't know. I do feel like a waterstart is possible for me at this volume. It feels comfortable enough to squat on and maneuver and I can get the nose to surface with no wind. The board feels well balanced nose to tail. I think that is a reasonable start point. Would it be better to have a 4'4 or 4'8 at this volume? I really don't know. I will spend a few weeks on this one and see how far I can get. :)
https://youtu.be/ZnmCLCNq0Vs
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I threw a 32ltr board in the pool and experimented with balancing on it while extending my arms overhead as though I was arranging a wing. It seems doable to me, although it does require some effort. I think you are right that a smaller board would be easier. A few stacked up kickboards stay down with zero effort(although that may be like 5ltrs). Unfortunately I don’t have access to a 25 ltr. board to try out. In the next few days I will experiment with one of my grovellers. It is 5’6” x 22” x 38ltrs, so it is similar in size to some available prone foil boards. I am also looking around for a boogie board to try. I don’t know if one can get volume specs. on those, but they are certainly a good example of short and wide with evenly distributed volume. I am still hoping that with some practice i can make a higher volume board work as I think it would make the inevitable paddle in when the wind dies a lot easier. Looking forward to hearing how the little dwarfcraft goes.
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I threw a 32ltr board in the pool and experimented with balancing on it while extending my arms overhead as though I was arranging a wing. It seems doable to me, although it does require some effort. I think you are right that a smaller board would be easier. A few stacked up kickboards stay down with zero effort(although that may be like 5ltrs). Unfortunately I don’t have access to a 25 ltr. board to try out. In the next few days I will experiment with one of my grovellers. It is 5’6” x 22” x 38ltrs, so it is similar in size to some available prone foil boards. I am also looking around for a boogie board to try. I don’t know if one can get volume specs. on those, but they are certainly a good example of short and wide with evenly distributed volume. I am still hoping that with some practice i can make a higher volume board work as I think it would make the inevitable paddle in when the wind dies a lot easier. Looking forward to hearing how the little dwarfcraft goes.
That is really cool to hear. I am 77 kg (170 lbs). At your 90 kg there is a 13 kg difference between us which is the difference in liters between the little Dwarfcraft at 19 liters and your 32 liter board. With 1 liter floating 1 kg that should mean that we are feeling roughly the same thing. For me the bigger Dwarfcraft at 25 is possible but it is much more unruly. That seems about as big as I could manage but I think it would be very inconsistent for me right now, especially in wild water. I have been seeing a lot of images of the F-one kids recently on smaller pocket kite boards. These guys look to be in my weight range. These Pocket boards are available 19 and 21 liters. I am not sure if that is just availability or preference for them. At least the first step is easier on a little board :)
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Admin,
I like the looks of those pocket boards. It’s nice to see that the cool kids are able to make them work. Thanks for the great shot of the board. It is helpful to see the strap placement and the nose flip. Those details will really help me in terms of finding a board once I decide the volume I want to gamble on. I think you are right that around 30-32 will probably work, but I will mess around with some other volumes just for kicks.
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This type pocket board is my favorite, for one reason, the nose. There is nothing more aggravating than a board with zero tolerance for a ricochet off the water. This board solves that. I made a knock-off of the board. I eventually sold it and went back to a 4’8, but this suits your need perfectly I think.
https://www.groovekiteboards.it/boards/foil-board-skate-freestyle-2/
https://youtu.be/uJ0Zqi1Gysc
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This is some great information - I print out the solid bits. Thanks to all who contribute.
Jim
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Dwight,
Thanks for the heads up on the Groove Skateboard. That’s some serious nose flip! I agree that it is nice to have something that isn’t too flat for touchdowns and if I end up deciding to go that low in volume I will definitely keep that board in mind. I am still hoping that with a little practice/training I will be able to work out that water start on a bit more volume, something in the 30-40 ltr range.
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Admin,
I like the looks of those pocket boards. It’s nice to see that the cool kids are able to make them work. Thanks for the great shot of the board. It is helpful to see the strap placement
I was stoked to see that as well. I went down to NSI to see if they had some all foam straps. They didn't but I peeled back their lightest strap and saw what I was looking for so I bought a bunch of those. I am going to mount these like Tituan has his (but wider and looser so I can get out) and see if I can get into them in the pool. I may hourglass them as well if they work. PS: He is on a 5 meter Swing in what looks to be normal wind...and boosting in flat water. So cool!
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78720482_2526029211012929_3734208128086966272_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=hEYKrfP48ZgAQli2vevrnoxsWZyoPSOst6EnE-B48whX9_pIqvXjbvWSA&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=c9172bdc73876995bb5419b4276af4fb&oe=5E7A6BED)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/77431107_2526029311012919_375413827098902528_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ohc=7E-akCNwEiQAQmmubJ4gHHz5PyG5aJ3gat-G3PWaoaOg0JiyOZm1Ffl_Q&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=c7b34f4a6deb52775b572faab0bb556c&oe=5E8242C2)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/79098892_2526029264346257_8901827085446676480_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=CWYqq0LxTi0AQkQD77msn1L_0gZcnf33vwss3RtAipJZAo2WKcDGIQZrw&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=8d5e2c94940633f9ba5a72ade160eaca&oe=5E8C571B)
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This type pocket board is my favorite, for one reason, the nose. There is nothing more aggravating than a board with zero tolerance for a ricochet off the water. This board solves that. I made a knock-off of the board. I eventually sold it and went back to a 4’8, but this suits your need perfectly I think.
https://www.groovekiteboards.it/boards/foil-board-skate-freestyle-2/
https://youtu.be/uJ0Zqi1Gysc
This is getting too mumbly jumbly. :P So I need to take my little guy out in deep water on a windy day and work my arse off to do a sink-the-board pump-everything-furiously water start, rather than just doing it with a kite where I’m yanked up on the foil before the kite is even half way through the first downstroke. Ok got it, a new challenge! (and my foiling life has come full circle.......)
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We mounted these footstraps yesterday and brought this to the pool (no foil). Swimming laps keeps us moving in December and January so this will be a fun and ridiculous add-on for cool down :). We both really liked the addition of straps. It only took a couple of tries to work out getting into them and after that it makes controlling the board underwater feel great. You can twist it, lift the nose, and adjust if you get off balance really nicely. It seems like this will be really helpful in guiding the board to the surface. We swam a few laps on the board and it motors along nicely. Belly touch point goes between the straps. The straps are super soft, flexy and comfy so no problem there, even bare chested. It swims like a big shortboard which is a little surprising. I had originally mounted the front strap at and angle but I changed it to straight. It is loose enough that I can twist my (size 13) foot to a very forward angle so this should be good. Really easy outs as well. We have two moths of down time and we want to have it so we can get on and in without a thought. That should make the hard part a little easier when we get back to it.
Side note: I am so happy to be back in the pool. Each year I forget what a perfect exercise swimming is. Man does it make the body feel great. There is a Physical Therapist there who was watching us goof around on kick boards and we got to talking. I asked for some hip stretches and he gave me some tips that I have been using. I realize that I had prematurely written off some motions due to age and other stuff that were really just due to my not wanting to go through an uncomfortable process. Now I am wondering if I can get really limber. Pretty cool.
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Ok got it, a new challenge! (and my foiling life has come full circle.......)
This is fantastic to hear. I am stoked to hear how it goes.
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Side note: I am so happy to be back in the pool. Each year I forget what a perfect exercise swimming is. Man does it make the body feel great.
Swimming is a great exercise. My only problem is I don’t really like swimming in a pool. So I wait until summer so I can swim in the lake. But pool, lake or ocean, swimming is definitely one of the better ones.
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We have two moths of down time
flights from PDX to OGG : $300 roundtrip... Why wait till Feb? haha
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When I picked up my new wing a Windance they loaned me the 4'3 F-One Pocket board. That one is 21.1 Liters. We brought that to the pool yesterday and that is a really good size also. When I am squatting on it and I leg push down hard and quick the board almost completely resists me at first so I can stand a good ways out of the water before it slowly goes under. That may be really helpful. It looks like Tituan (pro kid) above is using the slightly smaller 3'11 Pocket which is the 18.9 liter version. That is more similar to our smaller Dwarfcraft board (which feels great). I am going to bring the larger 25 liter Dwarfcraft again and see how that feels now that I have a little more practice. We still need to figure out a slightly smaller board for Chan.
As a side bonus, this is super fun and is amazing balance practice. We had 3 people join us yesterday and they really seemed to like it.
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Looks do-able.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6DF3wHH7qK/?igshid=apxwfsp2xwxa
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That is a great video. That is the depth I am at with the small Dwarfcraft and the F-One 4'3. It took me a few tries (where I was way off) to find the right volume board but I am pretty sure that these will do it. Getting on and in the straps is feeling pretty comfortable now in the pool. I mounted some straps on the larger 25 liter Dwarfcraft and I am going to see if that one will be possible today. It is crazy how a tiny bit of volume changes things so much. The 19 Liter Dwarfcraft is very easy to get on and control with no drama. It is stable and mellow underwater. The 21 Liter F-One that I tried was still managebale but it is much more twitchy like what the guy in the video is experiencing. The 25 liter Dwarfcraft seemed like too much work but I will see if the straps help tame it. I can't wait to get back at it in real conditions.
The guy in the vid is on the 4'2 26 liter F-One Rocket. I asked him his weight :).
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.... ask him also about the straps? The only F-One Rocket I see with inserts is some fancy, Orange carbon job for $2k. (?!)
BUT... he's doing exactly what I need to do. At least it is widely achievable.
Jim
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Those would be stick-on inserts. I saw that the F-One pro kids were using this same board earlier and they had just used stick-ons.
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Thanks, Boss... Ya, I opened it again (not a subscriber) and enlarged it as he brought the board closer —stop— you can see it was some sort of DIY. Note: the rear strap is offset to Port. I assume the C/L was somehow ocupado. But, it works!
Thanks.
Jim
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This guy responded that he is 6’2” 185 lbs. That is all making sense. He is 15 lbs heavier than me so I imagine we are feeling pretty similar. Good to know.
Here is that same vid but on YouTube for better viewing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQnp8LxIiFU
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Note: the rear strap is offset to Port. I assume the C/L was somehow ocupado. But, it works!
Hey Jim, Winging, it is really nice to have the ball of your back foot a little further over towards the far rail. Your front foot heel can be in that same spot on the near rail and that gives you centerline balance and a lot of control over the foil. The way he has his back foot offset is pretty normal. Another option is to go hoopy on a centered rear footstrap but then you are really in there to get to that far rail. That is always a little risky :). Here is another image from IG of that guy's kit.
PS: We are finding that it is more streamlined not to bother with straddling the board. We were doing it that way but it is a wasted step. It is a lot quicker to just push it under from the side when your are still in the water and go directly to your surf stance. It is also much easier to control the board that way because your hands are on the nose and tail rather than the narrow grip on the rails (where you have to either twist the board to surf stance or change your hands during the process). In the long term I am convinced that this start will be a lot more efficient and much less tiring that the knee start.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5H8A1ynUQ6/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
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Cool, ...' more info, better the prep. Thanks.
Jim