Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: SUPdad on October 15, 2019, 09:56:12 PM
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So I’ve been trying to figure it out and it’s not easy. I’ve watched all kinds of videos. Now I’m far from being in good condition, :o but I’ve been watching some of the newer prone foil guys around here and they seem to figure out pumping fairly quickly. Well, at least way faster than I’m progressing. So I guess I’m looking for some pointers or tips. I realize the increased mass of a standup board is a factor. It seems I’ve had better luck with a slower cadence that the prone guys...which makes sense, I suppose. Any suggestions?
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You need to give your specifications:
- Board Length & Weight
- Foil Size
- Body Weight
- Number of Sessions on a Foil
Fitness? Age? But if you're on this forum you're probably over 40.
The moral of the story is you need a short board (e.g. ~ 6 ft or less), be in shape with a high aspect ratio. Both in body and in foil.
Otherwise you need a massive foil. The GL240 might work.
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Yes, the GL 240 is pretty easy to pump, and so are all the Axis wings. I'm 72 and 235# riding a board 6'11" long so yeah, I suck at pumping. But the three things I've found that help me a bit are:
Don't worry too much about coordinating your pump, meaning don't try too hard to get your front foot to come up before the back on the up motion. You can literally jump up and down if the wing is right and the wing will take care of the pumping action. For a high aspect wing, the easiest way for the wing to rise in the water is for it to angle up which means the front of the board comes up before the back. Works the same way going down. A low aspect wing with a big stabilizer will resist angling upwards and will come up flat. Nothing much happens when it does that.
Bend your knees a lot more than you think you need to. Yeah, the fifteen-year-old kids don't. You aren't them. Chances are when you think you're bending your knees no one else can tell. Certainly true in my case. If I want any success at all in pumping I need to bend the heck out of my knees.
Get your body into it. It's not pushing with your legs, it's hopping up and down. Look at the videos of Steamroller doing it. Clinton is built like a fireplug, certainly weighs over 200 pounds, and has fake knees. Ignore the videos of skinny kids, Clinton is the model for geezers. Of course, he's a lifelong aggressive skateboarder so a lot of it comes naturally, but when I need inspiration that's where I go. Unfortunately, most videos of Steamroller are from his point of view. But I learned to pump better (better meaning I still suck but it's a little less) by watching him.
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6’11” Jimmy Lewis Flying V, weight unknown
Armstrong CF1600
About 5’7” and 185 lbs, 50 years old, not very fit ;D
About 50 sessions to date
From what I’ve seen, there are probably 80-90% prone foilers around here. I don’t see too many standups when I go out. There’s one prone guy in particular that has advanced quickly. A few months back, we seemed to be at about the same place. He probably goes out every day because I see him almost all the time, where as I usually go 2-3 times a week. We are about the same age and I’m sure he’s in better shape. Where I can barely pump to make it through a weak section, he can do that and also pump back out some. I don’t know his background but the progression difference makes me wonder.
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Pumping, for me, can and usually is an illusive occurrence which happens at one moment and then, not at all. Adding a paddle stroke between one or two pumps is an even greater feat. All I can offer is this. As has been said many times, "pumping' is more a matter of un-weighting your board and gliding it back down. Un-weight---Glide---Un-weight---Glide...….. As you hop up the board is un-weighted, and rises with your feet. What goes up must come down and when you do begin to put your weight back on the board, level the board out a little to find the sweet spot of glide and descent. Every set up is different and requires a unique cadence for each. Yes, the bigger the wing and higher aspect, the easier it gets. All I know is that my legs and lungs fail long before anyone even notices I have even attempted to pump.
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I'm a lightweight at 145 and learned to pump on a 4'11" prone board and Armstrong 1600 wing by learning to dock start. It took a few trips to an ideal dock, with a ton of failures, but it really helped me a ton in learning to pump when on a wave.
The 1600 would likely be too small for learning to dockstart for your weight, but if you could ahold of a 2400, it really makes pumping easy and help hammer home the concept. (I recently got one for use with light wind wingdinging) . I took took it to a small beach yesterday and tried to learn to beach start and couldn't do any better than jumping up on to my belly and flying for a second. I don't know how guys do beach starts, so hard!
I was able to dockstart the 2400 and go for about 120 meters / 30 seconds before my legs stopped cooperating (weak).
SUPeter has it right about the Unweighting.
You could try hanging from a pull-up bar and repeatedly lifting your legs (front foot timed slightly ahead of rear foot) and return to the floor. This will help with the un-weighting concept. It really is about getting your weight off the board so the board will rise, while projecting forward, and then gliding and pushing the foil back into the water at a slight downward angle before repeating the process.
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As has been said many times, "pumping' is more a matter of un-weighting your board and gliding it back down. Un-weight---Glide---Un-weight---Glide...….. As you hop up the board is un-weighted, and rises with your feet.
Absolutely. I should have made it more clear that bending your knees is so you can unweight, which is the critical bit of pumping. For a while, I was trying to pump fairly straight-legged, which young, springy kids seem to get away with. If you pump by pulling your feet up you have to bend your knees--a lot.
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Thanks, guys...all awesome suggestions and things to think about!
SUPeter...seems similar to me, sometimes it sort of works, other times not so much.
PB, your comment “Chances are when you think you're bending your knees no one else can tell.” is just so true! ;D When I first started, one of the regulars would give me little pointers on occasion. He said I needed to stand up straight and not hunch over. Took it to heart and tried. Next time I saw him, he kinda said the same thing. This after I “thought” I was doing a better job. Took me a while to actually do it. :o
Where can I find Steamroller’s videos?
VB...a friend had a 2400 wing for sale. Thought about it but got worried it would be a handful trying to catch waves with it being so big. Unfortunately, I think he finally sold it. Maybe I should ask.
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Curious if you distinguish between pumping back out, or pumping with the wave - to connect sections or get through flatter spots?
My pumping sucked at 50 sessions, and wasn't much better at 150 sessions. Somewhere north of 150 sessions I upgraded my equipment to a lot more refined and efficient gear. My pumping with the wave improved a lot. I say your setup is good to go, and yes a bigger wing helps.
Pumping back out is a whole nother deal, the only exception seems to be the high aspect wings. If I setup up my foil for pumping and was on the smallest lightest SUP I can stand on I could pump back out, just like I could run a marathon if I wanted to, but I don't. That's a lot of work with a board that usually weighs 15+ pounds.
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After 330 sessions and over the age of 40 fit but not skinny, 185, I have found pumping to be more correlated with SHORT board length than anything.
I learned on a 8' 2" then stepped down to a 7' 4" then 6' 6" and now 6' that weighs 15.5 lbs. I was hopeful I would be able to pump around the lineup with the GL210 and my light 6' SUP. No Dice.
I have a 20 second capacity to pump. On my 8' 2" I used to feel like I was going to throw up, on the 6' I can gently touch down after 20 seconds. My 6' 6" now feels like a pig compared to the 6'.
The math is simple: We pump at 10 mph or 15 feet per second. This equates to running a 6 minute mile. Pumping and running efficiency approx the same.
How long can you last on a treadmill at a 6 minute mile pace?
Then put 25 lbs of gear on your back ~ equal to the weight of a (light) board + foil + wetsuit.
20 seconds will still get me pretty far 20 X 15 feet = 300 feet or 100 yards. Not bad but good luck finding a wave within 100 yards of where you kicked out. If its at the end of your ride then you're pretty gassed and hopping on the treadmill to start your 6 minute pace.
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I never really thought about that, Clay. I figured first things first...learn to pump to make it through weak sections. I can sort of do that some of the time but not really. If I could figure it out, then it would be a matter of conditioning how much more I could do.
Beasho, I get what you’re saying. Short board and minimal weight. I guess that in itself explains why the prone guys seem to figure it out sooner.
Well, I’ll keep trying and thanks all for the thoughts and tips. Anymore, please post them up.. Tomorrow is looking to be a day where pumping might be a good thing to know how. Surf looks pretty small.
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You need a lower moment of inertia.
The solution is NOT necessarily Short, it is having a low moment of inertia. Inertia is what it takes to GET THE BALL ROLLING. In this case you want the center of mass closest to the axis of rotation. Wiggling a long board is A LOT harder because you are constantly Starting and Stopping the "Ball Rolling." Surfer Dude / Designers call this Swing Weight.
Inertia is a function of Mass and Length^2. If the board is light in the ends great! Otherwise every Inch is Exponentially more Painful when it comes to pumping.
A SHORT Board, with Pointed Nose, is more akin to the Orange Globe (Tucked in edges) than a longer SQUARE boards Blue Cylinder (Slab). This explains some of the difference.
My foil amigo Mark Alfaro said his 4' 4" prone foil board was 6.8 lbs WITH a pointed nose. That's light!!!!!! He can pump around in circles. Super fit, 150 lbs, racing in the Red Bull Heavy wave event on Friday.
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I found a good Comparison. Watch the 1st then the 2nd video.
I put the 1st in Slow Motion to make it look like I could go forever. No way!
You can clearly see all that PHAT BLOATED NOSE sticking out front. Looks painful. 6' 6" Easy Foiler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TQbJPfQAJg
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So I chopped the nose off entirely. This was my 3' 3" Ghetto foil. The shortest foil board in the world at the time. Kai and others have since taken me down.
I last . . . . . 20 seconds and then touch down. Not totally gassed but close.
It is a beautiful thing having NO NOSE and a board made of foam. Less arm motion, less horror.
Both boards on the Maliko 200 with giant generation 1 blue tail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUxgGLhOL5s
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I am trying to learn and do better at this as well. One thing that I have noticed is that guys like Keahi and Tituan have this really narrow range pump going on that never comes up far past horizontal. They are generating a ton of forward motion with that rather than directing steeply upwards and losing momentum by almost stalling before re-weighting. Their motion looks like a series of small flicks. They are super young and practiced for sure but it also looks like they are using way less energy through efficiency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUUmlbISjp0
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So I’ve been trying to figure it out and it’s not easy. I’ve watched all kinds of videos. Now I’m far from being in good condition, :o but I’ve been watching some of the newer prone foil guys around here and they seem to figure out pumping fairly quickly. Well, at least way faster than I’m progressing. So I guess I’m looking for some pointers or tips. I realize the increased mass of a standup board is a factor. It seems I’ve had better luck with a slower cadence that the prone guys...which makes sense, I suppose. Any suggestions?
Looks like good old brutally hard work or go home to me. But I"ve not been there yet. ;)
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hi guys...for big heavy OLD guys like us...5'8"...240#...49yrs...with a brand new stainless steel front knee...its just like what pono and beasho said..you gotta bend your knees...
deep squats are the best...and try to concentrate on flying the board up to you in the squat...or even sucking it UP to you....the frontstrap really helps a lot with this...then stomp forward and down with the front foot...slow and smooth rythm is best...i know the light in shape guys just kinda go boing...boing...boing...jumping around but thats not for.us...
you do NOT want to bend at the waist....you want to bend at the knees...make your legs do all the work NOT your lower back...if you bend at the waist you will end up dig...Dig..DIGgging with the paddle and trying to keep yourself airborne by paddling alone...thats never going to last....ive tried it...used a 120sq in blade and dug holes in the ocean...i could never last longer than a 2 for 1 and almost passed out afterwards every time...use your legs...itll be WAY better...
https://youtu.be/g5YnHr04ucc
also for really good pumping you'll want to use the the "DerekHamasaki Cadence"...i named it after him cause hes the one that taught it to me and it really WORKS...kinda like a secret weaponto help.keep you from getting winded and your lungs dont explode...its...
Pump...Pump...Paddle...
Pump...Pump...Paddle...
but the paddle.is not really a dig or a power stroke...its more of a glide to help you keep your timing going...so its really a Pump...Pump...Glide/Paddle...
and don't forget to BREATHE!
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https://youtu.be/sbcnKvbflOU
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Thanks for posting your videos! I’m inspired to keep trying. Might take me a while to figure it out. :o
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I've been thinking that its just because I'm not a #160lb 25 year old.
Whelp - 240#, pushing 50, and pumping on the GL180...
yup its just that I suck at it. no more excuses now.
Steamroller - you prefer using a bigger tail for pumping or no?