Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: PonoBill on October 02, 2019, 05:14:47 PM
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I spent my morning building a jig to cut the 1020 Axis wing that bounced down the I35 freeway into three pieces so I can make a fat boy version. The jig worked perfectly so now I have three bits and I need to stitch them back together with a little more space between them. I'm trying to decide what makes the most sense. I know Adrian at Axis has made a 1080 wing, but that's a fairly small difference--30mm per side, a little more than an inch. I think I'm going to aim for something around 1140mm, that will be about 45 inches wide, adding 60mm (2.4") to each side.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72632764_10156814112658668_6058091374333394944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQlfgh4ugejavrGX8PbJL5uLE3BJ2DVS0FYD89fyT2dyIudwFh6_T84ZneOnMNh_Q4I&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=c5cca63b179c224a9b59ed97c017a23a&oe=5DF20F43)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71183869_10156814114883668_7973431176696168448_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQk2LiK31fenCa1H4f6XOXfZwqHrd8nEfjSlQb83Fxfuw3aGmW9gN5TWqGKPWjKgytQ&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=54f5344986d35bcc5b948ad3ed6f0f57&oe=5E3BFA75)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72464750_10156814117228668_3269096619135467520_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQk8do_RV19TkobPt8q8AM0wgDlJ33gZnqRRKvggAeyzRZAxeipTP5-Jr5g_smdN3mQ&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=d68009cf8f79bc232c09b59d46e07604&oe=5E38AFAC)
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What is the core foam type? How robust is the carbon at the leading and trailing edge?
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What is the core foam type? How robust is the carbon at the leading and trailing edge?
Same question I was gonna ask too divincil? after your remodel is done how is that wing gonna stack up area wise to GF M280 thought you might of had a M280 already that’s a fat boy wing for sure I’m 225 and ride my M200 sup/wing foiling the M280 only lighter/ real smaller days.looks like it’s gonna be a Kingkong wing
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Hope you'll fully photodocument the rebuild Bill. I may try this with my M200.
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The core feels like someplace between EPS and Divynicel. I can press a fingernail into it, but it isn't soft. You can see the leading and trailing edges here. I plan to duplicate that effect a bit by bogging some CF onto the leading and trailing edges and sanding to match the curves. Looks like two layers of carbon. Since I'm not going to use Divy I'll probably go with four and a layer of 2oz to sand. I'll fair everything up with Bondo and bag it. Unless you have some other suggestion DW.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71799849_10156814905238668_8817419428913217536_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_eui2=AeH50P5MHERGY4aResKg7WDu_aKLVrYjKt5-VsT-boGQNJ5p1Q72PuHEe96n-x67951MTojHIvzVNMwgMatMxXA3TRWerHiMiqS7CeaEuzA72g&_nc_oc=AQl3qp21BlxLNn0pIyPLmcnuyzYsjyj1GWLtL3ATqsSYLyMIt_RQSzO1KOv6pNA9lrU&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=dcc4a4f9403031e208145c1b020b3612&oe=5E327554)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72602807_10156814718003668_4439425931135680512_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_eui2=AeEhRjdd-A5w_ITJcoiwgNt5gmAVhW-cJB05yiq2Ctm-kgYzfII9kRGz0PGsfKlTE3uKU0zPZ_8h2Kou6UrVaPFYUFwF08Ya_buadngRtIKNsQ&_nc_oc=AQl3d_b6JR70mJSu-vQx5kSc2esSq7An2uq9o0QSbRQc7NmUt6zRuAGOV1cbZWzcj0A&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=cfc4b8a3d9eec46c6f0a75074b9ee897&oe=5E2567C5)
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What is the core foam type? How robust is the carbon at the leading and trailing edge?
Same question I was gonna ask too divincil? after your remodel is done how is that wing gonna stack up area wise to GF M280 thought you might of had a M280 already that’s a fat boy wing for sure I’m 225 and ride my M200 sup/wing foiling the M280 only lighter/ real smaller days.looks like it’s gonna be a Kingkong wing
My rough calculations are 2600 sq cm of area. I'm looking for lift in the M280 range but less porpoising. I might chicken out and shorten the extensions tomorrow, bring it back closer to 1100MM width. I think I'm overdoing the boost.
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I gotta say that I’m stunned that the skin is that thin. The leading edge looks beefy but I’d have assumed the skin would have been double that thick.
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1080 -- I think tomorrow I'll pull it back to something around 1120
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71816872_10156814937093668_4188198609499455488_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_eui2=AeEYS0oDFvGvNbL3-Fd8koXkKLSJvkypkaQNSw8ECcVT-zRSMoXBhAfjprlenHjccyAG1S4KwVJOgc9z5hctwyA4bKKfurG2MPUc38t0uGpgDw&_nc_oc=AQnZ0IimFNO1cJLN-dT8Kr-zCMqUbp2-RV0LnvFHD_goI0Naq6QuAuEul3C-5mnKAE4&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=2497adc4bbd678b71afdbc260305ba28&oe=5E3345CF)
1169
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71258118_10156814938753668_38473015662477312_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_eui2=AeEXYPsJLbIt5OA2hgM2xfI3vqr0L5WiSVWBI8tE1xQn5jNrJRxiWK88AhP4oPf0Bd98hE442HMv6S5YXkue8q4ycPUG9bnRU-8FqpuYQtIagA&_nc_oc=AQlOG5T9zBb-0LdxlaFb2-in4f3n31bJOu_uBD4SsX-Pk0C15IwxKH_tEjVxApocZy8&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=85a90b654b4ff5fd0f1432fb0fdd7abd&oe=5DF5F5EC)
1200
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72144416_10156814939833668_6385808657602314240_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeFuKccOFC6hOcQETVl-GEoUscuue-5j0XDs0wSue_Kuu0epgjAHPjicpbgCWUFMxfWxQjxqZe4WFz7G0f2JCQdXfTULFGB66Qw37fjz6QUgLQ&_nc_oc=AQmhrVMcp_s5QAESmvua7FX2XGua5UYAzYFOCM-kHOMe5MU16IfacxTDJGKCKZPO-m0&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=0ec1811a6ef19a43f3b0bad020b3f7f4&oe=5DF23580)
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I good behaving wing, is a good behaving wing, even when bigger. Go big or go home. I would not expect it to act like another brands wing.
When my buddy made the massive stretch of the NP large, it felt just like the original, it just worked easier. It did not wheelie.
I think the magic is in the wing section.
I told my buddy to glue his thick divinycell pieces in, then shape them down to match the wing after they were glued. He cut back the trailing edge only. He did not have the skill to carbon wrap in one shot, so the leading edge got doubled up carbon layers. 4 layers each side. Just carbon. A wing maker on Instagram posted he uses 6 layers.
My buddy rode it without sanding the hot coat. It worked so good, I told him don’t touch a thing. Don’t sand the hot coat, don’t risk changing the ride.
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Those pieces I cut yesterday are hotwired blue foam. I duplicated the foil shape, tracing templates onto thin plywood, offset them to make up the difference in the curve, and hotwired and sanded them. I have some divynicell kicking around but I figured glued on Divy wouldn't really gain much. Maybe I should rethink that. I'll look at the bits I've got, I think they're long and wide enough but probably only an inch thick. I plan sanding the spacers a little short and thin then laying a first layer of carbon just the width of the spacer, lapped front and back to fill the space. Six layers. geez! Even with bagging compression that would get a bit thick. Though I saw a piece of aerospace carbon V framework the other day that was said to be 45 layers thick but still only about 3/8ths finished thickness. Autoclaved of course, and probably prepreg.
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Interesting project Bill I can't wait to see the final result.
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It's glue up day. I went with 1.5 inches (38mm) making wing width 1096. I added about 2 degrees of dihedral to the wing as well as the width. Admin just called with an optimistic forecast for some wind in the eastern gorge where it's sunny and warmer. A good reason to get out of here since I should leave this thing alone and if I stick around I'll be fussing with it. I posted this stuff on Facebook as well, and Adrian Roper responded. I'm sure he's cringing a bit at all this. Adrian is the designer of all this Axis stuff. He was here in the Gorge for an industry event this summer and I had a great time talking with him.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72378655_10156816495818668_3456324160647593984_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQnC4QYb91zAK08TYVbJ_3KXD60nqG0wHA51EPWjXcukbu7Gpey-Oe4toTyxjKvZx5M&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=7ae0a8dace8ca69fe59db3e59ce77dd6&oe=5E3951FE)
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(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72602807_10156814718003668_4439425931135680512_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_eui2=AeEhRjdd-A5w_ITJcoiwgNt5gmAVhW-cJB05yiq2Ctm-kgYzfII9kRGz0PGsfKlTE3uKU0zPZ_8h2Kou6UrVaPFYUFwF08Ya_buadngRtIKNsQ&_nc_oc=AQl3d_b6JR70mJSu-vQx5kSc2esSq7An2uq9o0QSbRQc7NmUt6zRuAGOV1cbZWzcj0A&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=cfc4b8a3d9eec46c6f0a75074b9ee897&oe=5E2567C5)
Regarding the transition along the leading edge: If you moved the cut wings a bit towards the tail, then rotated them so they swept back a bit more, you could have no interruption of the leading edge profile. The spacer core would have to be a bit wedge-shaped. There might be a downside if the anhedral tiplets don't present themselves to the flow appropriately after the rotation.
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I posted this stuff on Facebook as well, and Adrian Roper responded. I'm sure he's cringing a bit at all this.
I wouldn't be surprised if his response was an offer to make you a custom wing just to stop this snuff madness.
How do I find you on Facebook, maybe under Tinker Bell Bill :D
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Kind of obvious I'd think. https://www.facebook.com/PonoBill
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The carbon on the bottom of the wing came out a bit lumpier and more epoxy saturated than it would have if the bagging went well. Not my best effort ever, but most of the crap work will get covered with the top layer of carbon which I plan to do across most of the bottom--at least a few inches past the patches. This one has to be good, I don't want to take a chance on weakening the original wing with two much sanding. I'll do a wider layer of 2oz glass to give me a sacrificial sanding layer and take a bit more time checking the bagging stuff before I mix epoxy. The patches are three layers of carbon. The wing feels quite stiff again already--not that I flexed it all that hard.
I also trimmed back the foam on the leading and trailing edges and filled the gap with chopped carbon mixed with epoxy. A little reinforcement for the edges before I sand, fill, sand again, and glass the top of the wing.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71644563_10156819002348668_4361835083485675520_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQkdcsF1ebxc92PrPtfqllIdrhdcHq70nWWf84Xt_Hgz5SHGVANy7jD8T_KxD0ADt0E&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=7347acb5968b27e466023d328ff07af4&oe=5E23D0C9)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71844450_10156819006373668_8382002537867247616_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_oc=AQnEfECoYJ1wWy-VANyFqzpsInc5U0t6MmcirtBqsSu0MigK-qrtumFb7agrDL8Sep4&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=36ddf4d4c0182ce12f0928013623819c&oe=5DEFB72D)
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Well that kind of sucks. I had a bit of a fire drill bagging the top layer of the fat boy wing. I'm using a medium fast epoxy hardener but my shop is cold, so I put the epoxy and hardener in a warm water bath so I'd get good adsorption. I had everything ready to go for the bagging, two layers of carbon, one of 2oz glass, peel ply, breather, bag checked for leaks, did a dry run. Mixed the epoxy and started to laminate the first layer and the epoxy started getting hot in the cup when I was about halfway done. Damn. I dumped the whole cup on the wing and spread it out to slow the reaction but didn't dare add the other layers. I just spread it out as quickly as I could. Fortunately I had gloves on so I could work it into the leading and trailing edges. The surface looked like crap, very uneven, so I put the peel ply on, used that to even out the resin. Then I flipped it upside down, laid it on the breather, wrapped i all up and stuck it in the bag. I cranked the vacuum up to max since the part is sturdy and I wanted all the excess epoxy squeezed out. I forgot about the foam in the extensions, or rather I figured the bondo on top of them would be strong enough to resist crushing. Wrong. Oh well, I need to add another layer and a sanding layer anyway. I won't make the second layer full width, just an inch or two past the extensions. And then full width with the sanding layer. I'll bondo the dips before I do the next layer.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71640065_10156822418098668_4453100484235886592_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQlhXIobAA9v5_cO4uHCFEDq2KTdJ15zKNP2ipX8rqQ8W2TCGUMkba9ZecczKYoUyhI&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=b1ada1359c17366fe0522e6479b2e8c2&oe=5DF41500)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72316101_10156822417318668_1789097042652430336_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQk4q5eoAz959IeikzL0JQkGsiyzlAjR9u_o-c7Yyo5VtPmkRW9yKGAaTo6CRVN6NqA&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=5a9301a74919b60feabbda1cd051c155&oe=5E21102C)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71344816_10156822417673668_1220610335220695040_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQk-eMurJ66FhmI2VcRGvrXFQyx3KZqG82Iv9EXgTZCr3OPOD5u_rvyszbYLLloFOCc&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=bb38f61cfaa2f3f69ce1906d1b637f73&oe=5E2824FC)
The wing looked fine when I left to go wingfoiling, but when I got back it had dips where the foam in the extensions got crushed.
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stoked on this project and excited to hear a ride report.
I took one look at a GF280 years ago and was stunned at how gianormous it is, I wrote it off immediately.
The new big wings are incredible, none of that porpoising nonsense, all the lift and much more nimble. For now a 2400 is a good wingding size for me. I suspect you'll be stoked.
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That is looking pretty good right now, Bill.
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I like people who get their hands sticky. Good for you, Bill. Failure is always an option, but not mandatory.
Jim
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Man, I vote you just fill and paint the “stripes” white. You’ve got a strong layer there. If not, you called it, be careful not to over sand.
It’s looking beautiful.
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The fatboy wing is ready to test. Some folks will probably say "you need to hotcoat that first". Actually it IS hotcoated, but I sanded most of it off. My shop is cold, my hotcoat had more zits than a 14 year old boy. Smooth is better than shiny and I want to see if this thing is going to be an improvement. Wind today. It's ready to get wet. I'll make it a little prettier later if it deserves it. Picture number three is the view from my shop. Tough duty. The mountain has lots of snow on it already.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71704308_10156829412738668_8845143167930990592_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQm_dOVOjtouG8rmu4tbadlULhsMqTvUYt3tkS5nNYxVrfuIL_fPgg-uKsS4p9Y6T1Q&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=b6f674d799da65bfb9dca84fc9311f7f&oe=5E376B4D)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70826431_10156829412413668_5183782087525662720_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQkuMyq-njJEqCkTkcHz7GYuuraHwKVA6pRknX0YK4g61qD8lEhTJlMe0XRljqU8tdY&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=0adf635ea5d96de135ae92d1b9675139&oe=5E2DFA64)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72660658_10156829412573668_7909301203228426240_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQlAvj229hTUFekOfcQKaH8t89gpy3DUZA56tCgEqf8oBH5tj4BYPYdjMwPJUBPWhVU&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=580dc6737746aa72ffccbac4e35c777f&oe=5E38841C)
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Well, the fatboy wing got a reprieve from getting wet, so I prettied it up a bit. Just don't look at the other side.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71900631_10156832278238668_113185857267040256_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQl9xbFlmmrqy27MN42J4Z6fSQK-dEG_Ewg_FpPStlPxUgUutySM0mPBF0oFBOdsLF8&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=08157329b4fe628fb6e132ee5fc91aa8&oe=5E36A4FB)
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Well now that is looking downright handsome!
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That looks sexy ;D. Axis better take a note.
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new Nasih color scheme, shouldn't go red for Axis sake :)
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Well, the fatboy wing got a reprieve from getting wet, so I prettied it up a bit...
I'm glad you did that 8) I believe chances are better for it to preform now that it got a little touch of love.
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Went out in very light east winds today. Fricken' cold. The new wing works really well. I only got up a few times, and then for short periods--too little wind--but I like how stable and smooth it is, comes up cleanly, no drama. I'm certain I wouldn't have come up at all with the 1020. Not without suddenly losing 50 pounds.
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Thus proving that the required tolerances on these wings are similar to aerospace specs. 😆
Congrats man. That thing looks damn good. Now you’ve got the low end of your quiver dialed.