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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Wetstuff on September 24, 2019, 07:40:23 AM

Title: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on September 24, 2019, 07:40:23 AM
It looks like—as far as water is concerned—I will be winging-it on a SUP.  I have aged-out for foiling. So, with plenty of SUPs, I want to optimize this opportunity. 

My first attempt was to kneel and then do the ole' one-knee-to-standing while holding the wing with my downwind hand.  Eh-eh...   The wing had the board sideways to the wind rather than nose-to the wind.  I was in 2 feet of water with a 4" chop, so holding the wing and getting up was beyond a challenge for this geezer.  I fiddled with different combinations for about an hour, with no decent result.  Till.

I left the kite in the water.  C'hit!  Why didn't I do that first?!  I could stand and do my rolly-polly on the board - as long as I did not have to hold the GD wing too.  It was not elegant, but I needed my arms/hands to wave around to get my balance in the chop.  The wing sits downwind just happy as a clam and takes no effort to bring aboard.

With any luck, one of you has got a handle on this and can add your version so I, and others, have other methods to try.  I also need to get upwind, but simply getting comfortable linking the wing and a SUP is a big start. 

Jim

Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: PonoBill on September 24, 2019, 10:32:46 AM
There's nothing wrong with doing it on a SUP of course, but the notion that you've aged out for foiling sounds silly to me. It takes time to learn it, but foiling is easier on your body than surfing is--once you reach the point where you can just get up and go. Yeah, it's a PITA getting there, but my knees and hips like foiling a lot more than anything else I do.

As far as the flailing around goes, don't expect too much the first few days. Allan Cadiz insists on cutting teaching sessions short when he sees the student getting tired. "You don't learn anything once you're tired, you just start thinking you can't do it." So stop when you start feeling tired and take a long break. Or even quit for the day.

As far as technique goes for getting to your feet, start on the tack that you are most comfortable with. If you're regular foot, that's going to be a port tack, with the wind coming over your back when you're standing on the board in a surf stance (left shoulder when you are just standing facing the direction you want to go). If the wind is coming from the wrong direction when you're on the beach, you might be better off sailing on your knees out a good distance and turning around to head toward the beach.

When you lift the wing out of the water, point the nose into the wind, and grab the handle or boom with your lower hand it will immediately point the board into the wind on a fairly close reach. It pays dividends to practice keeping the wing up and flying on the beach first, trying it in both directions (back to the wind, facing out to the water and facing back to the beach). When the wingtips drop, point the nose up and pull down a little with your back hand.

If you're a regular foot and you have the wing up and flying, swing your left foot around and put it on the board a little ahead of the handle. Bring your back foot under you a bit and get your toes to the point where they are pressing on the board like you were starting a footrace. Use the wing angle to point the board on a beam reach or even a little bit downwind. Wait for a good gust, let the wing fly high, and come up while pulling down with your back hand. Don't yank it down, just pull a little so it gives the max lift. It will take some practice.

If you're starting on a starboard tack I find it works best to turn the board more downwind. It's harder to keep pressure on the front foot when you're getting up switchfoot. I tend to fall off backward if I waterstart on a starboard tack in a reach. But if you're going downwind the board will balance with your feet in more of a paddling stance across the board, so it's easier to get up. Once you're up, fly the wing to give you the best power, and turn the board in the direction you want to go with hip pressure.

Keep at it. It takes time, but pretty soon you'll be wondering why you thought it was hard.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on September 24, 2019, 10:48:44 AM
Bill, That is an immutable law of nature; "You don't learn anything once you're tired, you just start thinking you can't do it."  That is phase three for me.  I need to get a little tired to tamp down the nerves —Get on with it— then get the hell out of the ocean when stoopid stuff happens repeatedly. 

Jim
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: gone_foiling on September 24, 2019, 06:38:24 PM
Jim,

I am new to this foil with the wing thing, but here is my take on it from my short 3 sessions. Initially I tried to do it on the sup (biggest one I have is 9.6 Imagine @148lt) and it was impossible. I was so frustrated and thought that I jumped the gun on the wing. That particular day I was scared to try it on the foil board - it is 6.5 Flying v, less volume - my thought process was if I couldn't do it on a sup I will probably kill myself on the foil. I WAS WRONG! So this weekend we had alright wind in SW Florida so I decided to take the foil out with the wing. Let me tell you, the first hour was a violence, scary shit. But an hour later I started to get the feel for this thing, lots of falling but no more violence. Every time I managed to get flying would result in immediate crash. So I decided to just go back and forth and practice jibes and enjoy my time. Sunday pm, wind was not as intense as Saturday - so the moment I jumped on the board it felt so much better, my balance seemed to have improved overnight. But still every attempt to fly would result in a crash. And then two hours into this session something happened - things started to make sense - when I got up flying I would depower the wing a little so my speed was more controlled and it allowed me to fly for 30+sec without crashes. Then at one time I was flying probably for a minute, with every attempt things were getting better and better.
Well, today only 12 kn of wind so no meaningful flights but the ability to control the wing and jibe is definitely better.
I guess my point is sup+wing is more challenging than foil+wing. I think it is easier than sup surfing once you learn it. It is just that initial curve you need to overcome.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Caribsurf on September 24, 2019, 07:29:47 PM
Sounds like you made a breakthrough, must be a great feeling.   great advice for those of us just getting started. 
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on September 25, 2019, 06:43:12 AM
Ya, GZ... "Jumped the gun."  ...'sounds like everything I have ever done. Only to discover it's a few years later already.  Good for you. Press on.

Jim
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Admin on September 25, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
Wet,

I am not sure if you have any interest in foiling but if you do, Bill is right.  You could do it.  Regardless, the kneestart will be your friend.  There are certain times when uphauling is not practical.  You will learn a lot in figuring out the kneestart that will help you with pointing, directional control and body position.  I think it is a good idea to just give in to that and commit to learning it first.  The kneestart is pretty well prerequisite to wingsurfing.  You had mentioned trying to stand from a kneel with only one hand on the strut.  That is the hardest way to get up.  Both uphaul and full kneestart (with both hands on the strut) are much easier.  In the kneestart I would strongly suggest that you get both hands on the strut handles before standing.  The wing will give you a lot of stability in that position and it will pull you to your feet.  When you feel that pull you know that you are doing it right.  If possible push the wing towards the front of the board while you are rising.  That will put your weight onto your front foot and lift you with a little forward motion.  That is helpful as it stabilizes the board.  If you are struggling with getting up from a full kneel (sitting on both heels) you can get into runner's stance before lifting the wing from the water.  That allows you to use your hands on the board to unweight your body help get your front knee up.  I have to do it that way every time.  In this position the board will turn downwind on you when you grab the wing with the first hand.  Don't fight that.  It will swing back upwind when you get your back hand on.  I wasn't at all sure that my goofy legs would cooperate with a knee start but over time (and with some modifications)  it happened and now it is second nature. 
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 25, 2019, 11:29:19 AM
Jim,

My first couple of days I tried the knee start and immediately thought, yeah right, I’ll be here all day waiting on a gust big enough to lift my pathetic self. Blew that off and stayed with just standing up.

The easiest just standing up method for me was, lay the wing on the water, right side up, holding nose handle with my right hand, down on the deck of the board. Then with both hands pushing on the deck, just stand up, all while still holding the wing from the nose handle. Then the wing is ready to quickly transition to holding with both hands, quick, before you fall.

Then I tried on a big choppy day and was forced to knee start. So it goes, I’m a knee starter. But still just stand up when I can, rather than wait on a gust.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: burchas on September 25, 2019, 12:37:32 PM
Jim,

 I had fun with a sup and a wing from day one, even-though I had to paddle 2 mile upwind with the wing attached to the back of the board (very slow) just because I didn't know how to go back.

Started on a 10' board and went with a large pivot fin so I can work the rails comfortably in order to go upwind but 2 session later could already go with my 8' board with my regular quad setup. Found a good shallow water spot so I don't even have to use a paddle in case I can't go back just to have the focus of mastering the wing first.

Starting on a good stable platform is the easiest way to get familiar with new equipment imo

The nice thing about going with a sup, I still have fun on a light days and learn how to control the wing without the complexity of yet another equipment that requires figuring out. Once I'm comfortable with the wing, I'll link it to the foil. Nothing wrong in taking it slow
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: eastbound on September 25, 2019, 01:34:53 PM
try napeague bay by amagansett, lavy---excellent learning spot

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Napeague+State+Park/@41.0073902,-72.0684864,5397m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e8ae40fa4aab89:0x1e8a4f20dd228fba!8m2!3d40.9949344!4d-72.0734811
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: burchas on September 25, 2019, 07:24:25 PM
try napeague bay by amagansett, lavy---excellent learning spot

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Napeague+State+Park/@41.0073902,-72.0684864,5397m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e8ae40fa4aab89:0x1e8a4f20dd228fba!8m2!3d40.9949344!4d-72.0734811

That's a good spot but I have a better one without the underlying rocks, just the occasional crab latching to your foot :D
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on September 26, 2019, 05:38:37 AM
Good points, gents...  I may head back over today.  On that first go-out, I failed to remember the lead from that poster, JB, on the Breeze where you move the wing aft of your center to get the board to point upwind.  It's counterintuitive - you think the LE of the wing will pull the nose around if you put it out toward the nose.  It takes me longer than most, but I have the persistence gene.

EB... Your's looks like mine but we're, a tad, downmarket. It is a great spot. I have been going to this park for 30+yrs.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Assateague+Island+National+Seashore/@38.2075977,-75.1674363,1311m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b938d4ecc9fa55:0xb22d39c727e2338c!8m2!3d38.0607973!4d-75.2362382

Cheers.

Jim
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: clay on September 26, 2019, 06:14:47 AM
A friend took some beginners out on a boat to try winging on a beginner windsurf board (like 40" wide).  They all were able to wing ding without falling.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: John65 on September 26, 2019, 07:11:40 AM
I have not done it yet.  I am in the midst of assembling the equipment.

What I am planning on doing is going to South Padre Island in April.  I went there many times years ago to learn kiteboarding and I think it would be excellent for learning to foil a sup. 

The water is warm!!!  The wind is pretty even and there aren’t any waves to knock you off the board.  The depth of the water is a bit of an issue.  I have a friend who has been learning to kite foil there and even with a very short mast kites sink the board when they are starting off and can dig into the bottom.  I think it would be ok on a SUP that floats you.  Use a short mast just the same to be sure.  You might have to walk out a little ways but I think it would work very well.  There is some tide effect so higher tides would be better than low.  A huge amount of water has to go in and out of the Laguna Madre. 

Just DO NOT go in March!!!  Spring break is crazy there. 
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Caribsurf on September 29, 2019, 07:10:49 AM
These guys seem to be going pretty well on a sup and Duotone wing.
Good speed and staying upwind...
https://youtu.be/O_pMKvNc0m4
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: gone_foiling on September 29, 2019, 07:27:20 AM
@caribsurf  that’s me and James ;D That’s a deceiving sup. James tricked it out to be a windsurf board with dagger fin in the middle. So it goes well upwind.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Caribsurf on September 29, 2019, 08:27:12 AM
Oh ok centerboard, that explains it      best SUP Wing video I have seen so far    ..but still that board really seems to be going pretty fast. Was it?

I have been told that after windsurfing for years, a wing on a SUP will be underwhelming and boring and why I will start foiling (gear arrives tomorrow!)   
Don

Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: gone_foiling on September 29, 2019, 09:05:36 AM
It was probably going around 6-7mph - that's what it felt like. I agree that after windsurfing- wing and sup will get boring pretty soon. Need foil. You are on the right track  8)
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: PonoBill on September 29, 2019, 09:07:58 AM
Yes, a SUP with a centerboard or dagger fin or and forward-placed fin will go upwind with a wing about as well as it will with a sail. You might even be able to get up on a plane with a big enough wing, some nuking wind, and the right board (probably some variant on a Formula board). If I was unable to foil for some reason I would probably still do wing-sailing over windsurfing for the simple reason of gear simplicity. You pump up the wing and step onto your board. I've been doing this for a while now and I always get to the water certain that I've forgotten to do something.

Of course, regular SUP is even simpler, I got addicted to downwinding mostly because it's so straightforward but still gives me that "I'm gliding!!" feeling.

Windsurfing and kitesurfing are great sports, but the gear intensity is off the charts. I haven't windsurfed in a couple of years, but the overwhelming quantity of gear I store is windsurfing, with kiting running a close second even though I've barely done it.

Still, I'm really glad I can foil, every adrenaline high jumps an order of magnitude when you're flying above the water.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: eastbound on September 29, 2019, 09:33:11 AM
haha--misty of chincoteague!!
my sister read that..............horsey book....

Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on September 29, 2019, 10:54:14 AM
Ya, EB... 'home break'  ...nothing in 30mi to shape a wave but at least we have two options.

gz... the 'centerboard'!  Both seemed to work, guy #2 seemed to be better placed to use the outline/rails of the board.  I had originally thought about a boom wing, but after watching both of you, I think the muli-handle option at the front makes my wing easier to handle.  I'll watch it again, but the front hand seemed awkward to quickly reposition.

Here was my first attempt at a 'centerboard' - it failed dramatically because this 8-0 kiteboard did not have enough volume. The wind needed to be a lot stronger - the kite lot larger - an operator with a Ph.D., Cirque du Soleil.  None showed up for the test.   Cheers.

Jim

Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: gone_foiling on September 29, 2019, 11:14:54 AM
Jim,

Definitely guy 2 is awesome ;D this is James (floridawindsup) who is an amazing windsurfer:)
I am dying to try another wing like naish or f-one swing. Just to see what that feels like. I think that boom is easier for beginner and it was the wing that I tried on Maui and I was compelled to get one.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: burchas on September 29, 2019, 05:21:36 PM
Jim,

Definitely guy 2 is awesome ;D this is James (floridawindsup) who is an amazing windsurfer:)
I am dying to try another wing like naish or f-one swing. Just to see what that feels like. I think that boom is easier for beginner and it was the wing that I tried on Maui and I was compelled to get one.

I'll be in FL shortly. I'll bring my F-One with me since it packs so small and light. The F-one does seem to pack more power than other wings I tried.

I stumbled over a wind surfing clinic today ran by Andy Brandt and I was surprised I could hold speed with some of those wind surfers (beginners) at 12-17knots wind with my 3.5m and my 8 foot surfboard. The guys I talked to definitely shared their impression of how minimalist this wing thing seems compared with their setup.

I can see this new toy opening many possibilities for me once I get good, boring it's not.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: gone_foiling on September 29, 2019, 05:25:38 PM
When are you coming Yuval?
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: burchas on September 29, 2019, 07:13:51 PM
When are you coming Yuval?

Probably in a week or so. hope the wind shows up too. I'll be in touch.
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on October 05, 2019, 07:07:28 AM
Hi Guys-

I can provide some more details on the "special" SUP that Greg and I were using.

1. It's an Angulo 10'4 Surfa, which already had a mast track for windsurfing when I bought it. My modifications to it were intended to improve its windsurfing characteristics. I made the modifications before WINGsurfing was invented, but they fortuitously fit the needs to WINGsurfing.
 
2. My first modification was adding a center finbox. I was living in Massachusetts at the time and so was Josh Angulo, so the man himself actually helped me install the finbox. We put the finbox about 1' aft of the midpoint of the board; about where the daggerboard would be on a windsurfing longboard. Mounting a center fin allowed beginner windsurfers to stay upwind better when sailing. https://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2012/04/adding-center-fin-to-sup-for-better.html

3. The second modification was adding a flat rocker section and "step" to the tail, plus putting twin fins forward of the step, so that the board would release and plane on the flat rocker section, rather than gluing itself to the water. When I saw that the board did indeed plane and reached scary high speeds similar to a regular windsurfing board, I added front footstraps. I had good action videos of the board in planing mode and shredding waves, but Vimeo took down my account because of unlicensed music content.  https://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2014/03/angulo-windsup-and-exocet-cross.html

4. On an actual windsurfing longboard with a daggerboard, the daggerboard must be retracted to allow the board to release and plane. On this modified windsup, however, the center fin is small enough and far back enough (especially if I use a raked fin and put it at the back of the box) that the board can plane, or at least approximate planing, with the center fin still in.  It was sort of doing that a couple times in the video when I was using it with the WING. Top speed I recorded on my GPS was 18.7 kph, but that was just on my first "turn" on the board, and I think I went faster on my second turn. Probably in enough wind I could remove the center fin and get really fast planing speeds.

SUMMARY THOUGHT- WINGsurfing with a regular, banana rockered surf style SUP will generally suck (be slow and not go upwind well), the same way that trying to windsurf a regular surf style SUP sucks. But board features like a flatter rocker and a center fin will make it suck much less.

5. I'm very curious now to try to the wing on different kinds of fast boards / boats; sort of a "will it wing?" experiment. I want to try it with my 14x23 race SUP, with Greg's SIC bullet, with my 20' surfski kayak, and with somebody's OC1. 

-James
Title: Re: Wing and a SUP - how do you do it?
Post by: Wetstuff on October 05, 2019, 11:09:12 AM
Thanks for the info, James.  Yesterday, I sold the yellow Naish we mounted a similar center fin to a kiter because it did not have enough volume to float me allowing my arms enough reach for a water start. I agree surf rocker makes for added resistance. 

I had an OC-1 - I don't think a seated position would prove very manageable either.  I have another idea for a shallow water board that may plane more readily.  I have a carbon skimboard, but that is too small. (I am sure some acrobat could do a run-and-jump on some big tidal flat) Please post if you find alternatives that work.

Jim
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