Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: obxDave on September 22, 2019, 02:43:24 AM

Title: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on September 22, 2019, 02:43:24 AM
Ordered so too late to change now :P.  Duotone 5m wing. Blue Planet 58 Carver (114 l, 27.5 width, thick!, 18.5#), Moses 873 (2100 sq cm) surf rig with 71 and 91cm masts. Already own a Moses 633 rig for kite foiling

173#, oldtimer windsurfing since the 70s (just have a 12.6 Starboard convertible SUP/sailboard now), kiteboarding since 2001, and kitefoiling for 2 seasons. Have my on-the-foil foot switches down pretty well. Pull off some occasional upwind 360s/180s. OBX resident. Ocean, sound (shallow) , wind all over the map

Biggest dilemma I had was the first SUP board choice for  wing foiling. I know a longer, bigger volume board would make the most sense, but what the heck.....Get some wing time on the sailboard, then suffer through the kneel/stand/pump learning curve on ideal soundside conditions with the shorter mast. Any other advice?? (BTW, great forum. Much learned already)
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 22, 2019, 05:10:18 AM
It will be easy. Kite foilers can do it first day, no issues, no worries.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Admin on September 22, 2019, 05:16:04 AM
It will be easy. Kite foilers can do it first day, no issues, no worries.

It does seem like kite foilers take right to it.  How long did it take you guys to learn to kite foil? 
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: GL on September 22, 2019, 05:53:31 AM
I was able to fly for extended periods on a reasonably large kite foil with a 60 cm. mast by my fourth session. With the wing I was able to fly extended periods on my first session it seemed very familiar. So I think you are right kite foiling first make wing foiling much easier to learn.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on September 22, 2019, 06:41:57 AM
It will be easy. Kite foilers can do it first day, no issues, no worries.

It does seem like kite foilers take right to it.  How long did it take you guys to learn to kite foil?

Ok, cool. Then Ill assume I can somehow deal with a stubby under-6 board at 114L from the get go. About the kitefoiling learning curve, at least for this klutzy 61 year old=> ~2-3 sessions to ride both directions without constant fear of imminent destruction on a really short 20 mast and those now ancient history 600 sq cm wings and longish boards, 1/2 season for heel-toe-heel flying jibes, full season for confidence in crap conditions and ok touchdown switch stances on a bigger 1200 sq cm wing, two seasons for confident flying switch stance on a smaller 120cm board and pulling off a few higher level moves (upwind 180s/360s), all soundside in mostly chest deep flat water so far

Mostly inspired by Alan Cadizs wing foil riding style. Ill never get remotely close. I really like the idea of a waist mount wing leash. We get a lot of crappy gusty 10-22 knt days. No issue at all kitefoiling for me now, but with wingfoiling Im back at square zero
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 22, 2019, 07:16:37 AM
It does seem like kite foilers take right to it.  How long did it take you guys to learn to kite foil?

Probably as hard as what you went through learning to wing, with no foil experience. Except way more scary due to much higher speeds and harder crashes. Id often ride for 20 minutes, then go back to the beach to let my heart rate calm down. Then go again. You could stain your shorts learning with a kite.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Admin on September 22, 2019, 07:37:45 AM
Hah!  The kite foiling looks punishing.  We were out with a gal who was learning a few weeks ago and she was starting to get it but she was also having some brutal moments. 

Obx, you have a lot of the skills already in place. I think you are going to do fine on that board.  You could probably even skip the windsurfer.  Stoked to hear how it goes for you!
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on September 22, 2019, 02:04:22 PM
Hah!  The kite foiling looks punishing.

 Stoked to hear how it goes for you!

Just the first few sessions of kitefoiling are terrifying (helmet and impact vest help). Things calm down quickly if you have decent kite skills, and the kite sizes for foiling are way smaller than twin-tip boosting.  Kite foiling is just way less wear and tear on the bod once a few basic skills are mastered.  Hoping flat water wing foiling will be the same. At 61 I expect to be in full kook mode for some time with this but I will report in either way! Slightly larger board to get used to..................

 Someone told me Ill need to go back to a front strap. He said Foot hooks just dont work that well for wing foiling

(half way through an upwind 360)



Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: cnski on September 22, 2019, 05:28:50 PM
Ooooo a Groove Skate! I've got a couple of those. Nice boards. Ok so had my first session on the wing today. I've got the 5m F-One, a 6'8" x 31" 150L Brawner board and a Delta foil (1650cm2 front wing). I'm a heavy weight, currently 245 lb or so. I don't think I had enough power to get up on foil and I know my front wing is probably on the small side but I was able to cruise around. My legs were totally wobbly at first!! Haven't felt that in awhile. Like I was struggling on a rock climb or something. So anyway I felt it was actually easier to just stand up on the board then quickly grab the wing out of the water instead of doing the one knee on the board and one leg up thingy. Anyone else do it like that? Spending alot of time on my knees is going to end poorly for my board in the long haul I'm sure.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: supkailua on September 22, 2019, 06:19:30 PM
cnski, I am on the F-One 5m, a 7'8" 31" wide 145L Airstrike and Slingshot Infinity 84 front wing which is 2,066 cm2. I am a light weight at 160 lbs.

I am not sure my low end yet but at gusts of 15 mph I am up and foiling. I hope to test lower than that as I get the hang of it.

In light wind I find it easier to stand on the board and lift the wing out of the water. If there is a lot of wind I can do that knee start technique but I need enough wind in the wing where I get some lift from it to help me stand up and balance immediately. At 15 mph gusts I don't have enough wind when kneeling so it is easier to stand up and grab the wing.

I think that knee start is better for boards that are really difficult if not impossible to stand up on in choppy water without support from the wing at all times.

My board has enough flotation and support that I can stand on it in choppy water with no wing support while getting a drink of water from my camel back.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Admin on September 23, 2019, 05:54:43 AM
I felt it was actually easier to just stand up on the board then quickly grab the wing out of the water instead of doing the one knee on the board and one leg up thingy. Anyone else do it like that? Spending alot of time on my knees is going to end poorly for my board in the long haul I'm sure.

Hi Cnski,

Stoked to have more Zoners getting wet on these crazy things.  What a hoot! 

When you are very lightly powered (underpowered) the kneestart gets almost no help from the wing.  This happens a lot when it is weaker near shore (or no wind by shore).  Sometimes I uphaul there or just knee-wing out to the windline.  I found that it is a bad idea to mess around with a kneestart when it isn't going to happen.  You can exhaust yourself doing that.  If that is the condition for your whole session though you are just underpowered.  That is pretty much the only time I use the uphaul method.  When it is choppy or in the wind range a kneestart is really quick, stable and reliable because your center of gravity is so low until the wing is supporting you.  You can still uphaul but it becomes more and more of a hassle as wind and swell increase.  When the wing is fully overpowered and is batting around it gets difficult to uphaul.

I don't want to sound like a know it all because I still suck, but I do have a few tips for the kneestart that is particularly helpful for new riders or smaller boards. 

Do your micro foot adjustments before you try to get up.  Rushing it when your feet are not in place results in a lot of failures. 

For me that means that in a kneel my front foot is very close to its eventual riding position.  My back foot has the toes prepared in runner's stance (bottom of the toes on the deck of the board not the top of the toes).  That little thing makes a big difference for me. 

Know that as you get up you are going to want to pull that pack foot forward on the board towards you front foot.  I say this because your back foot can, and often is in or near foiling position when you get up.  It often will try to foil you as soon immediately once you are standing or while you are in the process of standing.  If you slide the front foot forward it will both force you to pressure the front foot and to move the back foot forward.  This will keep you down and give you a moment to situate yourself before you go for it.  I have seen better foilers foil straight out of a kneestart and they won't do this but if that is not you I would strongly suggest this.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: supkailua on September 23, 2019, 10:45:42 AM
Good points Admin, as I think about it more if I have enough wind in the wing the knee start is easier and faster, if not no sense tiring yourself out trying.

For me if the wing is giving me some lift a knee start makes sense, otherwise pulling it out of the water from a standing position is faster.

I sail in a light wind location, so knee starts are not as frequent as in higher wind areas.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on October 14, 2019, 01:41:50 AM
So had my first two, 2 hour foil sessions so far, plus one non-foiling light wind session from the boat just to practice knee starting.  Fun and challenging. Gear is the Blue Planet 58 Carver Board (114L) and a Go Foil GL 240 (not the Moses). Thought I made a big mistake starting with this gear the first 30 min, but the success rate has improved steadily. 

Generally up and riding both directions, regular and goofy. Able to work upwind but not quickly at all compared kite foiling. Using the short (24.5) mast in waist to chest deep water so far. Interesting with a 42 high aspect wing on a short mast and a 12 wave height. Not much vertical leeway. First session with a 4m Duotone in 20-30 mph, and second session with a 5m in 17-26. Im 170#. Have the tall 29.5 mast and want to start venturing into deeper water. Temps dropping, dusting off the 3/2 suit🙁

A few jibe, foot switch and straight downwind attempts but definitely not there yet for this klutzy 61 yr old.  Lousy pumping skills as well. Maybe easier to practice with the 29.5 mast in deeper water??  Still trying to dial in wing position versus under-overpowered and pointing direction. Im sure the experienced wing foilers out there are getting upwind quickly. So, curious about your ideal point high technique, and if youre riding much in shallow water??..Thanks!
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: GL on October 14, 2019, 06:09:09 AM
I ride in shallow water a lot and been mainly using the 24 inch mast. With Slingshot Infinity 99 wing even in large rolling swell I rarely breach. I do use the longer windfoiling fuselage which makes it more pitch stable. I am a kite foiler as well and I definitely cannot go anywhere near as high upwind  wing surfing. Having said that I have no trouble going upwind I just cannot point as high.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Admin on October 14, 2019, 07:46:14 AM
OBX and GL,

Yeah guys.  It sounds like you are both doing incredibly well!  Your kitefoiling experience will likely work the pointing out for you after a few more sessions.  It is all still a work in progress for me as well.  I can't remember if you guys were also windsurfers.  I am finding that pointing is a very similar body position to windsurfing (going downwind not so much).  These will point much higher into the wind than a standard, non-foiling windsurfer (no first hand comment about kitefoiling other than they look massively efficient upwind).  I always need to work on staying downwind.  The pointing seems to take care of itself. 
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on October 14, 2019, 08:26:47 AM
With windsurfing we would pinch upwind on a short board as hard as we could until the skeg would cavitate, and wed spin out.  Solution was a bigger racing skeg. Kitefoiling is just a different beast where you can heal over right down to the chine and have the wing provide as much upwind drive as lift.  Dont feel like l can heal over much wing foiling without losing a lot of board speed and quickly coming right off the foil. So depending on the mast for upwind drive. Lots to learn!
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Admin on October 14, 2019, 09:13:57 AM
OBX, you know a lot more about foiling than I do but this is how I picture it.  Wing lower and raked back a bit.  Shoulders and hips aligned with your intended direction.  Angling in with the board.  I am nowhere near that but it is good to have goals.  :)

Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: PonoBill on October 14, 2019, 10:15:40 AM
One of the few things I haven't had problems with is going upwind. On a typical session, I spend the last ten or fifteen minutes driving downwind to get back to the takeoff. I think it's the same technique I learned a zillion years ago in windsurfing--sail the sail, steer the board. A little mantra meaning point the board where you want to go and fly the wing to give yourself the best amount of energy you can get at the point of sail.

I see lots of people trying to steer with the wing. That's fine for downwind, but not for anything close to the wind.

If you're saying you can point higher with a kite, then yeah, sure. But not dramatically so IMHO.

The only other issue is switchfoot or not. If you're not switching feet with the wing, then I think you aren't likely to get upwind easily on your "bad" side. I can't get the wing far enough back to make it point well. Probably people with more flexibility (AKA Everybody) or more skill (ditto) might be able to, but I'm constrained to a broad reach at best.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on October 14, 2019, 11:12:47 AM
OBX, you know a lot more about foiling than I do but this is how I picture it.  Wing lower and raked back a bit.  Shoulders and hips aligned with your intended direction.  Angling in with the board.  I am nowhere near that but it is good to have goals.  :)
Believe me, I dont know much,  but I agree with you and watching video of people I admire (Patrice Gunol, Alan Cadiz) this what I observe. Im just happy to be getting upwind without too much pain early in the process!

Bill, Im way too new to wing foiling (compared to kite foiling) to know how the upwind riding limits really compare. I just know compared to all the other sailing/kiting activities Ive done, I never driven upwind as quickly on anything as a kite foil.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: supkailua on October 14, 2019, 11:44:25 AM
I think mast length might make a difference in going up wind. With a short mast and a huge front wing, if you start to lean the board over I think the front foil wing tips might be too close to the surface, or even break the surface, when using a short mast.

I am no expert but I am very impressed with my upwind ability on the wing. I am using a 90 cm mast and the Infinity 84 wing.

I also get more upwind ability with the Swing 5 harness. I find I can point upwind without the harness, but to really push things up wind I have to lean back and have a lot of power in the back of the wing at all times. With the harness I can have the needed power in the wing without even having to hold the back strap. I would estimate once I hook in I can get another 20 degrees upwind angle.

I did notice when the wind turned really light going upwind was definitely harder. The more power you can harness from the wing the more upwind you can go, so more wind allows better upwind angles.

My guess is as long as you are fully powered with your wing and you have a harness you can achieve similar upwind angles as kite foiling.
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 14, 2019, 01:16:13 PM
If you're saying you can point higher with a kite, then yeah, sure. But not dramatically so IMHO.

NOT....

When I use a tall mast and fast wing kiting, Im in another zip code compared to wingers.  Its this angle that makes it so. I dont ride like this often, its scary as shit. My nerves are shot after an hour of this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2v0GZqomz0/?igshid=10tsedq7viw7y
Title: Re: Any words of advice for this newbie SUP wing foiling plan?
Post by: obxDave on October 14, 2019, 02:26:28 PM
I think mast length might make a difference in going up wind.

My guess is as long as you are fully powered with your wing and you have a harness you can achieve similar upwind angles as kite foiling.

Yeah, definitely want to switch to the 29.5 mast either way. Figure its better to work on my pumping and transitions. Grounding on our soft bottom isnt all that bad. I was fully powered on the first 2 sessions, just not very dialed in with the wing yet.
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