Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: willi on September 14, 2019, 01:21:10 PM
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Moving up from 12.6 to 14 and have been lusting after the Infinity Blackfish style board --so have the outline done and looking for advice on how much tali and nose rocker would be good for choppy -
what would the bottom look like from those more experienced !!!
the rough water boards I have built have 2 3/4" tail / pretty flat in the middle and 2 1/2 in the nose and are wider 28" for the Key West event and Florida West coast pesty chop we get .
any help / opinions would be appreciated
pics of my 12.6 attached
aloha
willi
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The more rocker you add the slower the board will paddle, but the more stable it will become. The Blackfish has more rocker and is an open water design. It's typically narrower to gain back speed, but holds the width throughout the board with a wide tail for stability. Staged rockers with maybe 4 inches in the nose to flat then maybe just 1.5 in the tail. The staged rocker in the nose is not as obvious with the bulbous nose. Sharp pointed canoe type displacing noses tend to grab in the troughs and throw you sideways. The rounded bulbous noses slide more freely and are more forgiving in the chop.
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What year blackfish is that. Do you find the small central fin helps.
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Not my board. Just one on craigslist that I was using for an example. https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/spo/d/laguna-niguel-infinity-blackfish-custom/6973822808.html
There are a lot of Blackfish boards around here. I've checked them out up close at Infinity's shop and my friends have them. I used to race one of the first Infinity prototype's (not a Blackfish) with a ventral fin. It was great in quartered wind, but dangerous when finishing a race in the surf. The fin I was using was too big ( 5"). I think the small ventral fins they use now probably are just right, but I haven't tried one.
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Thanks. Just says custom. No year. It has a channel like the RS.
Willi I don't have the experience to give advice but am building a 14x25 board. The advice I was giving by some on here was to keep it simple. Flat bottom etc. Look at the RS,Maliko. Good all round boards. You can find most dimensions and rocker etc on manufacturers sites.
Are you shaping the board yourself.
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Thank you TallDude & Tarquin for the reply --
Looking at the picture of the Blackfish you sent TallDude- even with the picture angle it looks like there is very little rocker -- even in the tail - am I seeing it correctly ?
TallDude - I am not sure I understand the term staged rocker - would you explain.
I get the 1.5" rocker in the tail --that is so the water releases --Right ?
I am planning on a flat center area on the bottom with a kicked tail - to get the water to release --
flat area to get the board up on top of the water a bit
I see a small roundish ridge on the nose before the concave takes over on the Blackfish - am assuming that would help with
pounding / slap going upwind ???
My bottom will be flat as hand shaping a concave is challenging at best.
Hi Tarquin --- yes i am shaping the board in my florida shop
will try to send a picture later
thank you all for helping I really appreciate the input -
Peace & aloha
willi
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Hello Tarquin & TallDude-- I need to add my apologies to Tarquin for not asking about his 14' build -- and for using such a big font -- eyes are getting bad --
Tarquin I would be very interested in what your doing -- what kind of water conditions you deal with etc.
Let me ask - what you are TallDude using to seal the blank -- I have used Fast n Fit but my last 2 boards were heavish -- so i am thinking about epoxy and cabosil sealer.
I am going to use carbon as a first layer 3K twill --would you guys put 6 oz S glass over that or 4 oz
Back to the shop
aloha
willi
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I have started a thread here in the shape shack. Hollow 14ft board. There are some helpful comments in there and should help to answer some of your questions.
I have mainly built hollow wood or hybrid wood flax boards so cant be too helpful with the carbon etc.
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Willi,
I always use Dap Fast and Final 'light weight' spackle.... first. Light sand after. I just use my hand sometimes with no sand paper. I apply the spackle with my hand. The spackle is a filler with some temporary sealing properties. This step is critical to fill the bigger gaps between the beads in 1 lbs foam. It's lighter than epoxy. Then I use a thin coat of Epoxy with micro balloons. The micro balloons act as a thinner to thin out the epoxy, thus making it lighter. I sand this lightly with 320 grit. The purpose of this step is to actually seal the foam with a base coat of epoxy, and to reduce the chance of de-lamination by exothermic heat during your first layer of fabric layup. Too thick of a layer of epoxy and the EPS foam below could shrink away and delam from the foam do to excessive cure temperature.
Which brings me to the next important step, 'wet tables'. If you want to really keep the weight down, you have to wet table your fabric. This gets you as close to pre-preg sheets as possible. I use some foldout tables with a piece of plywood on it and a sheet of plastic stapled over it. Roll the fabric out on the plastic, wet it out completely, and roll the fabric on to a piece of 3" plastic pipe. Then roll it back out on to the board.
One layer of 3K CF overlapping the rails ( so you get a double layer on the rails) and an extra patch in the standing area. Then one layer of 2 oz. veil as a sanding layer. You could use 4 oz because you'll be sanding through it anyway. You can paint over that with white then sand some areas off to get that cool CF rough / white camo whatever finish:) Then seal it with 2K or Concrete sealer or other products that people use.
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As for the stage rocker .... is just that, stages Ie: nose mid tail all different. As opposed to a continuous rocker (one perfect arc). The sharp nose helps cut the chop with wind chop specially when paddling into it, but not so good open ocean deep troughs were it grabs. My first Infinity 'RACE' board (shown below) was 16' x 32". It was their most current cutting edge race board shape at the time. There was almost no rocker, but the bottom was completely rounded. It weighed 43 lbs and paddled like a barge through anything. Side chop, any chop this thing would just smoothly roll through it. The rounded rails absorbed the chop, and the extra width kept it super stable. It was not fast, but I paddled it hundreds of miles. A lot of the narrower boards these days use a harder rail from about mid board through the wider tails which picks up the stability lost in the narrower board and adds speed. Lowering the foot-well (standing area) also adds to stability and doesn't affect the speed. Adding rocker, does add to the stability, but slows the board down. Lots of trade offs to think about...
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Hello Tall Dude - That's great information -- I had not considered a wet out table --I guess the secret is to have the glass cut just about right and not too much resin before you roll it up.
Maybe use a metal roller on the saturated glass > to spread the epoxy on the roll out table - or even a squeegie to get extra epoxy out of the glass --
Do you put a light wet out coat on the blank first for the bond ?
I was thinking of dusting the glass and blank with spray adhesive to keep it down just around the transition area -- where the high nose comes into the standing area. Maybe thats too hokie but its how I have been doing my nose and tail for a while >.sticks good and conforms to sharp corners -- then wet it out with the glass on the rest of the board. No de-lam so far.
With the wet out table i assume you are putting the 2 oz on in the same lamination and free lap ? Not sure what 2K is but know about concrete sealer ---REALLY ;] Thats a new one - but I do believe you.
The fast n fit seal with epoxy after is great -- I have been doing one or the other -- but both makes sense - thanks for that --
So the rocker -- I get the idea of more rocker will slow the board down (and stages)-- but the tail rocker is important as it lets the water release out back --right ???
In rough chop & back wash like Key West slower is ok cause after falling a number of times -- on a narrow board you are toast - wide is slower but will not wear you out getting there --legs especially --(your opinion )
I can't thank you enough for all the information and your patience -- Your frequent contributions to the Zone are notable -- good job.
Willi
I am assuming you live in So-cal with the location of the Craigs list board --I lived in Laguna Beach in the 60's / Oak Street ;;]]]
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I live in France and cant get spackle or find anything like it. The last foam blank I did I used an epoxy micro balloon mix first. Not to much micro balloons. Then glassed just after it had gone off. A little later than if you were hot coating. This is what the company I bought the blank of said to do. It worked well. A lot less sanding. Maybe heavier and not as smooth a finish as tall dudes method though.
A couple of thoughts. Maybe you could glue some strips of foam back around the edge of the standing are. So it's like a recessed deck. Not open on the sides. This would stop water coming on the deck and make the board stiffer. Might add secondary stability as well. Maybe some high density foam or wood veneer in the area you are always standing. Maybe some vector net.
If you are using a wet out table and rolling it on a tube do it quickly. Have everything ready to go. Once you roll the wet glass it will start to exotherm a lot quicker.
You can see in the pic where I started with too much micro balloons. Added some more epoxy and it was much better.It's actually light weight filler. That's why its grey. Lighter than micro balloons I was told.
Pic too big sorry.
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Hello Tall Dude - That's great information -- I had not considered a wet out table --I guess the secret is to have the glass cut just about right and not too much resin before you roll it up.
Maybe use a metal roller on the saturated glass > to spread the epoxy on the roll out table - or even a squeegie to get extra epoxy out of the glass --
Do you put a light wet out coat on the blank first for the bond ?
The wet out is pretty simple. No need to pre-cut the fabric. Use a squeegee to spread the epoxy thoroughly and wet all the fabric. When you roll the fabric onto the tube it sort of rings out the excess epoxy. All the excess is left on the plastic. When you roll it onto the board, roll a few feet and squeegee it don't as you go. It's like installing a big sticker. Don't pull it too tight because you can pull the fabric weaves apart. There will be little spots that are too dry, so just pour a little in those spots. Next trim off the extra fabric and squeegee all the down the rail and under a little. The CF has more texture than Fiberglass so it's just going dry with a slight texture. The next layer of fiberglass will fill that. No need for rollers.
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So the rocker -- I get the idea of more rocker will slow the board down (and stages)-- but the tail rocker is important as it lets the water release out back --right ???
In rough chop & back wash like Key West slower is ok cause after falling a number of times -- on a narrow board you are toast - wide is slower but will not wear you out getting there --legs especially --(your opinion )
I can't thank you enough for all the information and your patience -- Your frequent contributions to the Zone are notable -- good job.
Willi
I am assuming you live in So-cal with the location of the Craigs list board --I lived in Laguna Beach in the 60's / Oak Street ;;]]]
Tail release is not such a big deal on a 14' board. A little V in the tail will help. I just paddled my 14' x 28" Hobie Elite this afternoon in some messed up ocean wind chop and swell. Glad I was not on my 25" wide unlimited. I would have been struggling.
Thanks for the kind words.
My grandma was a resident of LB since the early 50's. In my teens we used to follow the Harikrishna's around town dancing behind them. Then we'd go talk to the Greeter:) I now work for an architect in LB.
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Hello TallDude & Tarquin -- Thanks Tarquin for the heads up on the rolled wet glass -- never would have considered it --but yea its a lot of volume of resin --I hooked up and air conditioner in my glassing room today to glass on a decending tempature -- thats right ?
I am guessin the second layer of light glass goes on right after the rolled up wet out carbon --it would seem the rolled up wet carbon would hold enough resin to wet out such a light cloth ?
I know he is so full of questions --
TallDude - could you tell me a bit about the concrete sealer -- when and what does it do - well besides sealing - pin holes if any ?? after paint ?
I was going to order some S cloth but the lightest I can find is 6 oz -- a bit too heavy I guess -- the light glass is E glass and not as strong as S cloth -- guess its all a compromise.
Thanks for all the help.
Laguna / Mystic Arts World -- till it burned --Remembering Corky Smith - Spider Wells - John Parlett consumate Life Guard at Oak Street - Greg Nickols - and Hobie live just north of Oak Street -- Brooks Street second reef all just terrific memories ;]
Aloha & thanks
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You don't want it cool, you want it warm, then cooking (literally) hot. I can get my shop to about 95 degs which works for a cook off cure. I use two radiant electric heaters I bought at a 2nd hand store. If it's cool or cold the epoxy will cure funky. Feels rubbery and does not sand well. I prefer to cure and sand the CF first, then do the 2 or 4 oz. after. You are not getting much strength out of the fiberglass, it's more of a sanding layer. The concrete sealer goes on last after every thing is done, and yes it's good for pin hole.
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Jimmy Lewis has done a load of great vids about glassing. His poor mans peel ply is great. Lap tape technique etc.
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Jimmy Lewis has done a load of great vids about glassing. His poor mans peel ply is great. Lap tape technique etc.
+1 Great videos. You have to watch them closely, because he blows through the basics and makes it look easy. It's not, he's just super efficient.
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Hello TallDude & Tarquin -- TallDude The tip about using the roller table was spot on -- It is a hell of a lot easier than glassing with the cloth draped over the board and pouring resin on it -- If one has the room its the way to go.
I was even able to use the Jimmy Lewis thin plastic tip on the board after i got the carbon down on the board and trimmed.
Being in the heat over 80 here most of the time -- there was not time to chat as the carbon transfer went great - Tarquins tip about the roller heating up was good advise --I ran from the big table to the glassing room to unroll the carbon-- even then I could feel the heat --but the roll out process goes so fast - and once the carbon was down and spread out there was a little time to work all the bubbles and laps out.
Speaking of bubbles -- I have about 6 or 8 --small ones yes I was paying attention but they snuck by ;} -- so what is the best treatment as i am sure not the first person to get a bubble in carbon ??? I was going to drill a small hole in the carbon and press some thixotropic glue into it with a heavy weight to flatten it out. This glue doesn't get hot enough to melt the foam - and it what I use to put my fin box in (and repairs) as there is no fear of too much heat and its very strong. Is the consistancy of vaseline when mixed so it stays where you put it.
The help you all have shared is awesome - thanks so much for the camraderie.
Here's a couple of pics of the process
Thanks again
Peace & Aloha
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missed a couple of pictures during the process
willi
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The wet tables are under rated. Glad that worked out. You might try a little direct spot heat. The eps expands when you heat it, but a little more heat and it shrinks. I've never tried it, so maybe make a practice piece on a junker board or a sample piece you make. A safer route would be to put a slice through it side to side then put a couple of pieces glass over it. You'll never see the cut after it's all sanded out. If it wants to pop up, throw wax paper down and put some weight on it.
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If it wants to pop up, throw wax paper down and put some weight on it.
A bit of plastic might be better if another layer is to be applied, but yeah, don't forget a barrier between the weight and the board! I use plastic sheet, then a small sandbag if the surface is curved, then weights on top of that.
One time the eps melted on me as the epoxy went soft. Maybe a momentary application of high heat might work? ie with an iron of some sort? I don't know.
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I was even able to use the Jimmy Lewis thin plastic tip on the board after i got the carbon down on the board and trimmed.
I wonder if this is why you ended up with some bubbles? I don't think Jimmy does anything more than spackle, which fills the voids but doesn't actually seal the blank. If you did the epoxy and MB sealer on the blank, it does actually seal the blank. With Jimmy's plastic technique, I guessing he can push / force some of the epoxy into the blank as he drags his squeegee over the plastic (I've never tried it)? Flattening any bubbles out. When you put the plastic over your board, I can see how air or epoxy bubbles might get trapped between the sealed board and the plastic. The bigger the board the trickier it gets. Plus you need good lighting to see those bubbles.
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Hello TallDude -- Thanks for the reply & thoughts -- I did use spackle & thickened (microballons) epoxy to seal the blank as you suggested.
I had better luck with the botton being covered with plastic than I did the top -- the plastic on top caught a bit of air and once the plastic is down and stuck its hard to get the air bags out of the plastic -- maybe i was using too thin .75 mil -- as it would rip pulling the tape tight pver the rail to the bottom. But did squeeqie down pretty nice.
I will use some 1 mil I have on the next experiment (it will be a Naish style down- wind board . We get pretty much afternoon wind here with little bay or Gulf chop -- and though it would be fun.
I did an almost finished weigh in and it right at 19 pounds right now with maybe 2 more pounds of fin etc to add -- that amkes me happy -- now I gotta get it wet.
How many vents would you put in as it is a 14 -- but is gonna be painted white .??
thanks for your input
aloha
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At least one. If you're painting it white, then one should be enough. On my 18'+ unlimiteds I use 2 vents.
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Hello TallDude -- yea lots of foam in an unlimited - how lont is it ? Did you build it ? Carbon & what would it weigh ?
Got the 2.8oz glass done on the bottom today 00 and wondered as you mentioned beofre -- you sand it all off ? I am guessing it is used to seal the carbon and is not needed !!!
I weight the board after i glassed it today and it right at 19 pounds -- Not much else to put on it - fin & box & deck pad and glass the deck -- so I am happy with the projected (in my head) weight ! Oh and paint - sanded also ! Guess under 25 pounds would be OK for a home built board!
The new thread on paint is interesting / seems like the concrete sealer would be heavy ?
Thanks again for all the help
aloha
willi
thanks again for
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hello TallDude -(or anyone with an opinion ;])
- A little direction if you have time -- the 2.8 oz is down over the carbon and sanded --do you put a sand coat on and be done --or the concrete sealer now --
My other boards I have put a coat on and sanded to matt finish and left it (but that was with 2 x 6oz cloth - but no carbon - trying to save weight here
maybe a hot coat as its quite smooth -
thank
aloha
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The hot coat is the standard routine on most boards, but.... it will add weight. Do you need it? Probably not. The concrete sealer should do the trick. I would prime and paint first, then do the concrete sealer last. A little bondo here and there after you prime works good.
Here's a link to my time machine... https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,18700.0.html
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Woa - TallDude that is some project you did -- and yikes the final is awesome -- what perseverance you have -- lots of nights trying to sleep figuring out next step and all --']
Thanks for the info on the hot coat (and other tips too)-- The 2.8 oz cloth came out very flat top and bottom easy to hand lam --However it is so hot here the resin kicks quick -- no fooling around --got to get it down squeegie and clean up fast -- -- -
- so I will prime -- sand and spray it with an oil base white gloss -an put her in the water-
yes, very boring but it is wicked hot here and boards heat up fast on beach or car top --high volume Gore vent in the middle --
For the record the 3K twill I used held together nicely - Soller and the guys were helpful with quick shipping. I got the 2.8 cloth from Thayercraft -- Steve is very knowledgeable -- but I am sure Zoners know about those sources.
Will send some pics when the boards painted -- -- right at 20lbs now with paint - fin & deck pad to come.
aloha
willi
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Any ideas on fin placement -- on a 14 (one in picture ) that will surf smaller downwind slush - both my 12.6 boards have about 24" to the back of the fin box and don't wiggle around too much when i do catch funky little waves --
wonder how to translate to a 14 - more suited to some downwind work
thanks again
aloha
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Any ideas on fin placement -- on a 14 (one in picture ) that will surf smaller downwind slush - both my 12.6 boards have about 24" to the back of the fin box and don't wiggle around too much when i do catch funky little waves --
wonder how to translate to a 14 - more suited to some downwind work
thanks again
aloha
post a ground level picture of your board flat on the ground so I can see where the tail kick starts and what is the width rail to rail at that point, also post a pic of the board outline. I'll be able to give you a good placement.
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Hello Burchas -- Thank you for the offer --I will take it -- and get some pics going -- dealing with tacky paint in steamy Florida should post tomorrow
aloha
willi
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PRIMER for CARBON - in retrospect - as its done now -- whats the recommended primer for a carbon board -and overcoat - gloss --matt ???
-gotta be painted as it gets to hot here --
any paint advice would be appreciated
thank you
willi
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Hello Burchas and TallDude --
Here are a couple of pictures of my board from the side showing the rocker and and outline -- any info opinions about fin placement & any other comments too --
would be welcome -- and thank you all
I am finding Rustolum primer to be real fast drying and easy to wet sand -- maybe its cause the thinner is xyzlene - any thoughts ???
willi aloha
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The rocker pic is a little off alignment and low res but I think I can work with it.
What is the width rail line to rail line at the marked spot. Also could you mark where is
your standing spot on the rocker pic?
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Hello Burchas and TallDude --
Here are a couple of pictures of my board from the side showing the rocker and and outline -- any info opinions about fin placement & any other comments too --
would be welcome -- and thank you all
I am finding Rustolum primer to be real fast drying and easy to wet sand -- maybe its cause the thinner is xyzlene - any thoughts ???
willi aloha
If it sticks good, that's want you want. Some primers are better than other for a given substrate. Some of the standard Rustoleum primers work better than the specific Epoxy primers, which have failed me in the past. The boards flex, and some paints don't like that.
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Hello Burchas & TallDude -- Thanks for the reply -- I will get the measurement and try to estimate where I will be standing -- as it a new board - the stand spot is kinda unknown -- not too scientific - of me -but I will approximate and get back with measurements
Oh the primer TallDude i used was just regular oil based primer but it wet sands really nice --good point if the primer is too hard it could crack i guess -- I have a satin overcoat to spray in a couple of days when the primer is cured a bit -- the whole project is taking much longer that usual -- guess i am taking more care as its first time using carbon --
thanks for all the info and interest
willi
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Hello Burchas & TallDude
heres I hope a better picture -- the tail at the mark is around 23" wide and I am thinkin the mid mark is where i will stand (27" wide and stable was what I was after)
Its weigh in right at 22 lbs now -- which i am happy about -- the bottom is nice and flat for laminar flow -hope the water likes my rail profile ;]]
- maybe by this weekend
thanks for any input
aloha