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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: river on September 02, 2019, 09:31:52 AM

Title: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on September 02, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
This should serve as the official Duotone Foil Wing Thread.  Please post any product-specific questions here and someone from our Duotone Team will answer them as quickly as possible.  Cheers and see you on the water with Wing in hand:)
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on September 02, 2019, 10:01:11 AM
SOme resources to check out before posting questions as many common questions will be answered in one of the links below. 

https://www.duotonesports.com/foil-wing/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67JgSz1bIk0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItYsnHMByyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPcHI5FQAqA
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Keys Sup on September 02, 2019, 10:33:19 AM
The most important question is when will the 5m be available to fill orders of people waiting for them?
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on September 05, 2019, 11:32:50 AM
Today we got several hundred in stock in different sizes but a shortage of booms.  We will be shipping them to the dealers who have the most on order and pre-sold.  We will also be sending canopy only to those dealers who want them that way for the people who want to quiver up ;D. 
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 12:04:09 PM
Great. I hope that's enough so I can get one, I prepaid Big Winds for a 5M a few months ago. I don't need a boom, just a canopy. I've already made a carbon boom for the 5M. I decided to ditch adjustability in favor of weight. I added an outhaul system that adjusts from 165cm to 170cm. Total weight of the 5M boom is a little over 400 grams. The aluminum boom is 902. Not really all that heavy, and very strong, but the carbon boom is nice.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: gzasinets on September 05, 2019, 12:07:44 PM
I guess I am one of the lucky ones. Found one 5m in FL shop and got it delivered already - but waiting on a pump  ;D
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: supunk on September 05, 2019, 12:19:30 PM
I must be very lucky. Have a 5M and 4M, one pump and one boom ;D
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 04:42:54 PM
You buggers!

Here's the funny part about making a carbon boom for the 5M--it takes about ten minutes. A standard Ke Nalu paddle shaft has exactly the right taper (with a tiny bit of shimming) and exactly the right length. I drilled the rivets out of the stock boom, wrapped a little aluminum tape on the shaft for the front of the boom and on the ferrule of the boom end to get a snug fit, and then hot glued them in place, Done. 438 grams.

(https://i1.wp.com/www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/IMG_1783.jpg?w=2000&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 05, 2019, 05:12:48 PM
Here is my source for a carbon tube. They supply some paddle companies.

https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/

I put boom grip on mine, plus a pulley and adjustable outhaul.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 08:04:19 PM
I did the sailworks outhaul on my 3/4 boom, but I didn't like how the clew wobbles around. So this time I just did a loop around the boom with a second loop for the sail to connect to. Then the line goes through the eye on the boom end, around the bracket and back out. I just pull the wing to the tightness I want. The loop on the boom snugs up to keep the clew tight to the boom. Then a couple of half hitches and it's all secure. I can't change it while I'm flying sail as I supposedly could with the sailworks setup, but I couldn't really do that anyway. No added weight.

I've ordered stuff from Rockwest--nice stuff, reasonable price. The big advantage of the Ke Nalu shaft is that it's tapered and happens to be almost the right size on both ends, and the shaft I had kicking around was the right length to yield 170CM. I think the stock length is 63", with the added length of the boom end and front it came to exactly 67".  At $187 retail for the 3K Elite, it's a little expensive, but it's super easy to make a light, fixed boom with.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: gzasinets on September 05, 2019, 08:12:00 PM
Thanks Bill and Dwight for sharing your ideas. Bill, thatís a pretty cool modification, I might end up doing the same if I feel the standard boom is too heavy.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 10:25:49 PM
There's nothing really wrong with the standard boom, I'm just an equipment geek.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 06:34:20 PM
Thanks Dan, the wing is perfect.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on September 09, 2019, 04:31:27 PM
Glad you like it Bill.  I think I saw you out that evening getting a few nice rides in it by the mouth of the white salmon.  I have been loving my 5m and you can really feel the low-end Grunt on the 5m compared to the other sizes. 
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2019, 08:04:18 PM
Yup, the wind was rangy and weird, but the wing was great.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on September 24, 2019, 04:55:04 PM
Just a quick note of you have a Duotone Wing and the Boom starts to get a bit wiggly when inflated you may need to tighten the boom connector lines by tying an overhand knot carefully in a place where it doesn't need to pass through the slots in the boom head. 
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: JEG on September 24, 2019, 06:25:50 PM
impressive! and I like the back wing move below link  :)

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B2mZpOWJw0q/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: gzasinets on September 24, 2019, 06:44:30 PM
@river, how do I get a replacement part for the boom? Plastic clip that you use to adjust the length? thanks
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on September 24, 2019, 07:20:23 PM
gzasinets, if you have any problem getting a replacement, PM me. I have two aluminum booms that I won't be using--I robbed the boom ends from them. In fact, just send me your postal address and I'll send you the clip from one.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: flkiter on November 07, 2019, 06:14:49 AM
https://www.wingsurfmag.it/duotone-foil-wing-proto-spy-pictures-e-non-solo/?fbclid=IwAR3diiClmgAoQ-HfuR9WNqYVyZn4dQg37gQsqxAEQ7LXT2zvGF81DqhH6sg
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on November 07, 2019, 11:36:29 AM
@river, how do I get a replacement part for the boom? Plastic clip that you use to adjust the length? thanks

shoot me an email dan.gavere@boards-and-more.us and I can get you squared away.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on November 07, 2019, 03:15:20 PM
@river, how do I get a replacement part for the boom? Plastic clip that you use to adjust the length? thanks

shoot me an email dan.gavere@boards-and-more.us and I can get you squared away.

I sent him one of mine, Dan.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: gzasinets on November 07, 2019, 03:23:26 PM
Yes, thanks Dan! Good for now.
Bill, I owe you one  ;) thanks!
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: obxDave on December 08, 2019, 11:46:51 PM
Riding the 5m and 4m Duotones for about 8 weeks. We just donít get enough 3m days to justify buying that size. I guess the advantages and disadvantages of this version 1 have been pretty well established.

Had my 4m out the other day in seriously overpowered conditions (at least for wimpy me at 78 kg) of about 22-37 mph. Had the wing adjusted to its most flat high wind setting. Doing everything was  way more challenging but overall I was amazed I could ďmostlyĒ handle the gusts at all given my limited time riding overpowered. 

Biggest frustration was dealing with the wing  after a fall. The porpoising goes crazy when just held by the leash in those higher winds. I pull it in fast to grab the front handle thinking the leash will just  explode quickly if Iím not holding the wing directly.  Anyway, not quite ready to switch to the crowd favorite (F-One) figuring the V2 of all these wings will be out soon enough.

Working on toeside to heelside upwind foil transitions. Thankfully I ride a really flat spot in strong north winds (doesnít even look that strong in the pic, but it is!), otherwise Iíd be totally out of control. 

Would love to see Ken come up with a flatter more right-side-up-stable V2 of this wing. Then all would be right with the world😀
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: river on December 11, 2019, 11:42:38 AM
Excellent remarks and feedback OBXDAVE! 
I agree that the 4m is the best overall size and after being in Maui for a few weeks I was amazed at how well the 4m size worked even when severely overpowered. 
On the leash issue, you may find it to porpoise less if you attach a small piece of leash string between the handle and the leash loop on the wing and then attach the leash to the string this allows the leash to move up and down the string and sefl-center which I found reduced porpoising in high wind considerably. Bill may have already made a post about this somewhere as well if I remember correctly.   
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: obxDave on December 17, 2019, 11:03:07 PM
Excellent remarks and feedback OBXDAVE! 
I agree that the 4m is the best overall size and after being in Maui for a few weeks I was amazed at how well the 4m size worked even when severely overpowered. 
On the leash issue, you may find it to porpoise less if you attach a small piece of leash string between the handle and the leash loop on the wing and then attach the leash to the string this allows the leash to move up and down the string and sefl-center which I found reduced porpoising in high wind considerably. Bill may have already made a post about this somewhere as well if I remember correctly.

Hmmm, Iíll definitely give it a try! Probably a lot less stress on that tiny wing leash attachment loop with the handle taking some of the load.

Itís kinda interesting that the only time I really ďsenseĒ the extra weight and bulk of the Duotone is swinging it over my head on those upwind transitions, especially in strong wind.  If I donít mentally prep to push it forward during the overhead swing, it drifts back just enough that I unintentionally overweight my rear foot almost to the breaching point right while Iím pointed straight upwind. Lots of windage on that wing during an upwind transition in strong winds!!  Despite the drawbacks I love the feel of the boom. Just flatten the wing, gimme a techie light weight boom that will pack and travel, and Iím set😀
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on December 18, 2019, 10:35:28 AM
Looping a piece of spectra from the leash point to the handle and connecting your leash there so it can slide tames the wild porpoise. I connect to only one side so if the leash point, which looks a bit flimsy, should fail the leash stays connected to the wing. A shorter leash is also a really good idea. I think F1 should sell their wing leash, it's the best I've tried.

I think the 4M wing is the current sweet spot of the Duoptone lineup. The 5M needs work to retain its shape in gusts and remain stable, but it's certainly usable and one of the best wings in that size. I like the stability of the F-one 5M better, but the 5M really needs a boom. I don't mind using the 4.2 with the floppy handles but the 5M is hard to use in transitions without the fake boom I made for it. With the fake boom it's much better. The Duotone boom enables a lot of good stuff--any handle position, tuning for wind conditions, easy harness connection, etc.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2019, 03:08:54 AM
Boy does this prototype look good. One hand, doesnít need second hand to stop the wobble. Looks to me like a strut and boom on the wing.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6Z6eAInh8c/?igshid=5o174ukowmgf
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: winged surfer on December 23, 2019, 03:37:36 AM
Yes it looks SO good!
And also to me looks like a boom and bladder.. and so efficient!
we just have to wait!
Anyone has more infos?
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: PonoBill on December 24, 2019, 12:14:57 PM
I've never seen a Duotone wing be so stable. The first wings I saw Ken and Rod Parmenter testing in Hood River a few years ago used a bladder and boom--the boom looked like a piece of broomstick.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: obxDave on December 25, 2019, 12:22:44 AM
Yep, now weíre talking! Just make that new boom extra light; maybe non adjustable Carbon with fixed extension pieces for different wing sizes (?)...... I just love the infinite grab/slide positions and solid feel of a boom.

Had a warm, slightly gusty 18-28 N-NE Christmas Eve day in Hatteras and got to keep working on upwind tacks. I kept tweaking my hand positions on the boom by ďfeelĒ and pulled off 5 of 8 toe to heelside tack attempts for the session. Even made two of them without coming off the foil. Totally awesome feeling ;D. A quick hand switch=>overhead swing=>quick backhand regrab (a little farther back on the boom per Riverís adivce)....all by feel, and not having to make a quick regrab on one particular spongy web handle at a fixed position.  Guess Iím just a boom kinda guy......
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2019, 03:12:28 AM
It looks like they have done a lot of smart things to advance this model. 

It looks like they have gone with a Swing-like leading edge and outline (higher aspect, leading edge doesn't carry around into a deep D).
Went to a inflatable strut design.
It looks like the battens are gone.
It looks like the windows are gone.

That should bring them into Swing territory weight wise.

Questions are:

Is there a luff strut?  I hope so!
Did they do away with the heavy boom and move to rigid strut mounted handles, bar or bars (or better yet a user configurable strut mounted setup)?



Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 25, 2019, 04:45:51 AM
Is there a luff strut?  I hope so!

The way Fone apples it, I donít consider it a luff strut. Itís a tensioned web that doesnít luff.

Duotone could just make the inflated strut follow the same deep canopy curve of an Fone. Then they would have all the free space needed to place a carbon handle below it, unobstructed.

Now give it a normal kite bag and they win. Oh...and stop sewing kites so we can buy the dam things.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2019, 05:00:29 AM
Yes, Slingshot and others have their struts significantly curved to force in shape.  I don't think that gets you to the Swing luff strut magic though.  The luff strut allows you to put the wing in neutral.  The Gaastra (below) has a pretty cool shape to their new luff strut.  They also did a really flat cylindrical strut which would be perfect for attaching rigid handles, bar or bars to but they have not yet taken that step.  In any event I don't see either on this Duotone prototype (but it is hard to make out).

Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 25, 2019, 07:22:28 AM
I donít see it the same. A luff strut collapses the leading edge camber when sheeted out. Kites did this to gain a level of instant depower. It also created some drag. Dragging you down the beach when the kite was at neutral.

The Fone (unless Iím not paying attention to when it happens) doesnít collapse when sheeting out. The cut of the canopy, combined with the leading edge arc, is so unique, itís the only version with a web above the strut that keeps the wing profile tight and shaped at all times.

So the magic is coming from all features combined. That web doesnít collapse (luff).

So if the Duotone has no web, donít rule it out.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2019, 08:43:13 AM
I donít see it the same. A luff strut collapses the leading edge camber when sheeted out. Kites did this to gain a level of instant depower. It also created some drag. Dragging you down the beach when the kite was at neutral.

The Fone (unless Iím not paying attention to when it happens) doesnít collapse when sheeting out. The cut of the canopy, combined with the leading edge arc, is so unique, itís the only version with a web above the strut that keeps the wing profile tight and shaped at all times.

So the magic is coming from all features combined. That web doesnít collapse (luff).

I agree with that DW.  It doesn't collapse.  To me it just gets a softer more elastic feel (more neutral).

I am definitely looking forward to everyone's second year designs. 
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Thread
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 25, 2019, 01:10:58 PM
I watched the web while winging today. Pinching very high upwind, there is some distortion. A slight backwind collapse/dip near the leading edge. So a rigid strut following the canopy, would change behavior a little. Good or bad, no idea. 80 degrees today. So fun.
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