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General Category => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: tarquin on August 28, 2019, 11:45:23 PM

Title: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 28, 2019, 11:45:23 PM
Going to start a build soon. I have designed a 14x25 board. It's going to be a hollow build. I have built hollow wooden boards before. The interior will be 4mm marine ply like a wooden board. I will use a mixture a composite panels for the skin.
 Cant decide if I should go as light as possible or use some wood flax etc to keep with the natural look.
 Will make up some test panels and see weight strength etc.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Area 10 on August 29, 2019, 12:01:54 AM
Good luck, and I admire your skill.

Most self-build SUPs turn out to perform like (expensive) dogs. Mostly this is because of a lack of prototyping, I suspect. So I hope you get luckier. Designing a 14x25 that performs well is obviously harder than it looks because even some of the big brands get it wrong sometimes. But maybe you will get lucky, or you have already done some prototyping.

Please keep posting progress pics as this project comes along. It is inspiring to see what other people can build. Good luck!
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 29, 2019, 01:52:48 AM
Yes I have contemplated this and might build a  plywood prototype. I think by looking at the design it doesn't look like a dog but you never know.
 A quick design brief. I am 45,1.79cm and 83kgs. I have been paddling for many years. Some times 2-3 times a week. So.etimes once every few months! I live in Cannes in France so all the paddling I do is around here. Its rarely calm and always some sort of chop swell wind to deal with. Winter is coming and the water is about to drop 10+ degrees. Winter is when I get to paddle more as well.
 That's why its 25 wide and about 300l. 4cm sunken deck and a concave underneath to a V'd tail.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Bean on August 29, 2019, 05:01:02 AM
Specs out a little like my 25 Blackfish, should be a great all rounder.   

Looking forward to seeing the final product.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 29, 2019, 05:52:55 AM
The blackfish,evo 2 and RS were boards I studied a lot and watched/read as many reviews as possible.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: burchas on August 29, 2019, 08:30:30 AM
The blackfish,evo 2 and RS were boards I studied a lot and watched/read as many reviews as possible.

Which of those did you actually try though?

Sounds like an awesome project. Something I'm planning to do my self. I have a design pretty much ready to go (14x25 funny enough) but taking notes on some new boards on the market to see if there's anything I can take.

I rode/had all the board you mentioned plus many more. I am pretty much your specs so a lot of similarities. Maybe we should talk, I was thinking crowd funding project if there was enough interest.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Bean on August 29, 2019, 08:59:57 AM
Dave B. describes a subtle bottom change from 2018 to 2019 on the Blackfish.  From a rounded concave to more of an inverted v.  (An inverted v might be a little easier to execute with 4mm ply than a rounded concave.) 

If you haven't seen the vid yet, here it is. 

https://vimeo.com/330895202
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: burchas on August 29, 2019, 09:56:01 AM
Dave B. describes a subtle bottom change from 2018 to 2019 on the Blackfish.  From a rounded concave to more of an inverted v.

Scratch that Bean. Were are now at double concave on the 2020 Blackfish.
Hows that work for plywood? Probably not so much.

Probably better stick with flat. It faster anyway.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Bean on August 29, 2019, 11:19:34 AM
Haven't seen anything on the 2020, is that a double concave, as in a side by side cathederal shape?

My fastest distance board was my Fantic Fly Race (pretty flat bottom for sure) but it did have a couple of other shortcomings.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 29, 2019, 01:20:13 PM
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
 I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
 Burchas I would  be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 30, 2019, 11:54:32 PM
Frames and design. Maybe if I figure out how to attatch them!
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 30, 2019, 11:57:51 PM
Frames.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 31, 2019, 12:28:36 AM
Starting to look into a materials shopping list. Not going to be that much cheaper to do a plywood proto so just go for it. Not going to go crazy though. S-glass is still half the price of carbon.
 Looking at 3mm 60 or 80 kg foam core with 4 oz S-glass both sides. Probably just go 80.  6 mm end grain balsa with 4 oz S-glass both sides for the recessed standing area. Maybe bamboo veneer where you stand. Extra layers of glass where needed.
 I was thinking of making different panels for different areas but it gets too expensive. Maybe on the next build if the design is good.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 31, 2019, 12:44:28 AM
 Interesting discussion about the Hypr gun on another thread. This is the other board I am building at the moment(for over a year now)! 11X28. I keep thinking a 14 ft version would be awsome.
 Put some wrinkles in the bottom when bagging it. More rocker in the nose than I wanted. Again learning about bagging. I blocked the nose and tail when bagging. Undid the clamps the next day. I guess as the epoxy dried it shrank and ended up with more nose rocker. But not in the tail.
 Epoxy takes 2-3 days to dry properly. Longer if its cold.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: burchas on August 31, 2019, 02:44:41 PM
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
 I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
 Burchas I would  be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?

My design had a super subtle concave, but after going with flat bottom for my last 2 boards I changed it to flat as well.
Adding a concave may or may not make your board faster. It might make it track better or have a little more control in certain conditions but one thing for sure is it will add some form of drag. It's so easy to fuck-up a concave design and it happened to the big brands as well. If I'll ever copy bottom contours, I'd make sure it's from one of the mature shapes on the market.

Naish Maliko is one of the most mature shapes, the SIC RS is another. Both very different but very successful shapes. BTW, I consider your Falcon (before they changed its name to Blitz), a mature shape as well and a very good one. Had a good opportunity to put some miles in various conditions on the a 14x23 Falcon prototype Arthur Arutkin paddled just before they renamed it to Blitz. Really good board and one I would definitely be content with in a 14x25.

Have mixed feeling about the EVO 2 and the Blackfish.

I had the EVO 2 14x26 for testing and while it felt much better than the EVO 1, I wasn't too impressed with it compared to RS, Maliko or the Falcon going in small bumps and side wind/chop felt more labored in these conditions imo. One very noticeable difference from previous version was the tail. I was surprised by the ease and control off the tail with this board probably more than all boards mentioned above.

As for the Blackfish, this board has gone under so many changes year over year that it starts to look more like an experiment rather than a shape that's coming into its own (unlike the the Whiplash that really evolved into a great board). This year is no different and if the proto I saw is something to go by, I would not know it's a blackfish unless I was told.

To put it simply, I would much rather have a Falcon (Blitz) than a Blackfish or an Evo 2.
If I was to work on a design being in your situation, I would start with the devil I know and maybe reference some design concepts from mature shapes that are proven year over year.

You never said what's wrong with your Falcon outside the fact you thought it was not the fastest board around?
Also, what are you after with this new board is something you didn't speak about.

Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 31, 2019, 04:13:29 PM
Thanks for the reply. Very helpful info.
 The Falcon I have is the 12'6. The 14 is a totally different board from what I can see and reports I have read. Its just slow in the flat and the nose slaps in any chop. It does just take off on any little bump. Only been out for 2 proper downwind runs and it was great. Easy to steer and I'm not very good. Virtually new with a good bag for less than half the new price. Couldn't say no. Sponsored rider that just got the new 14ft blitz.
 What do I want? A good all round board that I can stay up on( yes the Falcon is that) so I guess I just want a 14 ft board. Slowly getting into downwinding. It's always a bit choppy or windy or something around here. Left yesterday morning and it was glassy and within an hour there was just under 10knots of breeze and starting to get a little choppy. Summer so loads of boats around.
 This is an experiment of designing and building my own board in a different way for me. I have built hollow wooden boards,vac bagged wood onto foam cores. The last board I did was foam core with 2mm airex innegra and flax on the bottom and Paulownia deck. Nothing new but I like experimenting. Now I want to try a hollow board with composite panels because the wood boards are lovely but heavy.
 Did 8 ks yesterday in 1hr 5min. Avg 7.5km/h. Bit of messing about catching boat wakes and stopped for a drink. Can't deal with the camelback. Im usually having a heart attatck and breathing so heavily there is no way I can drink at the same time. Trying to work on all of this.
 
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Area 10 on August 31, 2019, 04:26:29 PM
I agree. A good shape is a very subtle blend of things and is hard to achieve. I wouldnt go too off piste with a first design.

Concaves can add a lot of stability, so can be useful. The Hypr Nalu boards use extreme concaves yet paddle fast. So it can be done - probably there is a point at which being able to go narrower because of the concaves is going to add speed more than the extra drag of concaves scrubs it off. But it might be a bit ambitious for a first build.

In general I think the cautious approach, learning from the best existing boards is the right one. And doing it right: The older Falcons are a case in point, since the 12-6 boards were a lot less successful than the 14s IMO. It was almost like they just chopped the tail off a 14 to make the 12-6, rather than rejigged the shape entirely to accommodate the shorter length, which is what needed to be done. This might be why you have a lukewarm impression of the Falcon?
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Area 10 on August 31, 2019, 04:27:57 PM
.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 31, 2019, 11:17:08 PM
The frames so you can get a better idea of the shape.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on August 31, 2019, 11:37:24 PM
Try again. Cant seem to get it all in one!
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on September 03, 2019, 12:09:40 PM
Frames are cut.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: SupSimcoe on September 03, 2019, 01:55:54 PM
very nice design. I have a hollow paulownia wood flat deck Clearwood VLZ14 but that looks faster and more stable. Mine is a fast board but lots of wake when I get above 9.5 kph which is where I try to hold it. It also takes a lot of work to keep it stable in any side chop.

I have been thinking that it would be interesting to build a board like this with strips of carbon/foam/fibreglass sandwich instead of wood and then do a bit of carbon under the standing area to re-inforce that area.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on September 03, 2019, 02:52:22 PM
Funny you should mention the VLZ I4. Amazing looking board. I almost bought that kit. I don't think this will be as fast but it should be more stable.
 Randy at Clearwood cut the frames for me.
 As I said in the beginning it will be made of composite panels. Foam core panels with S-glass,maybe some flax. Some carbon where needed. Not sure of the exact build method yet. There might be some Paulownia in there somewhere.
 No idea what the design is going to be like so don't wont to spend ages or a lot of money on the first board.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: TallDude on September 03, 2019, 05:09:05 PM
Looks good so far. Plenty of volume....
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: blackeye on September 05, 2019, 10:10:54 AM
Looks like a fun project. I want to do the same someday. Have you considered putting limber holes in the frames so the inevitable leaks can drain nose to tail?
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: BrentP on September 05, 2019, 02:10:02 PM
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
 I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
 Burchas I would  be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?

My design had a super subtle concave, but after going with flat bottom for my last 2 boards I changed it to flat as well.
Adding a concave may or may not make your board faster. It might make it track better or have a little more control in certain conditions but one thing for sure is it will add some form of drag. It's so easy to fuck-up a concave design and it happened to the big brands as well. If I'll ever copy bottom contours, I'd make sure it's from one of the mature shapes on the market.

Naish Maliko is one of the most mature shapes, the SIC RS is another. Both very different but very successful shapes. BTW, I consider your Falcon (before they changed its name to Blitz), a mature shape as well and a very good one. Had a good opportunity to put some miles in various conditions on the a 14x23 Falcon prototype Arthur Arutkin paddled just before they renamed it to Blitz. Really good board and one I would definitely be content with in a 14x25.

Have mixed feeling about the EVO 2 and the Blackfish.

I had the EVO 2 14x26 for testing and while it felt much better than the EVO 1, I wasn't too impressed with it compared to RS, Maliko or the Falcon going in small bumps and side wind/chop felt more labored in these conditions imo. One very noticeable difference from previous version was the tail. I was surprised by the ease and control off the tail with this board probably more than all boards mentioned above.

As for the Blackfish, this board has gone under so many changes year over year that it starts to look more like an experiment rather than a shape that's coming into its own (unlike the the Whiplash that really evolved into a great board). This year is no different and if the proto I saw is something to go by, I would not know it's a blackfish unless I was told.

To put it simply, I would much rather have a Falcon (Blitz) than a Blackfish or an Evo 2.
If I was to work on a design being in your situation, I would start with the devil I know and maybe reference some design concepts from mature shapes that are proven year over year.

You never said what's wrong with your Falcon outside the fact you thought it was not the fastest board around?
Also, what are you after with this new board is something you didn't speak about.

Blackfish sure does seem to keep winning races with every design anyway so who's to say that's a bad thing? I see the changes as more of a smaller brand being able to be nimble and make the latest greatest. You LA fin guys sure do love your gossip! ;) I saw Junes proto board and it looks sweet!  I'm willing to bet it's just a custom at this point and not for 2020.

For a project like this it definitely seems the best approach is to start out simple and evolve from there. I think an all around style shape like the one's mentioned is a great place to start and makes a lot of sense. Especially an all around style design. How about this, you take the bottom of the RS match it to the outline of the Blackfish and take the tail shape from the Fanatic and voila! Go for it have fun with it!

Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on September 05, 2019, 10:30:26 PM
Looks like a fun project. I want to do the same someday. Have you considered putting limber holes in the frames so the inevitable leaks can drain nose to tail?
Inevitable leaks!!!!
 I have made a few hollow wood boards and they only time they have leaked was when I put a hole in them. Cut a big hole to do the repair and left it in the sun for a couple of days. Then did the repair.
 I am 50/50 on limber holes on this one.
 BentP. The design is done and the frames are cut. Thanks though.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on September 07, 2019, 10:22:30 PM
I went for a paddle yesterday and there was a guy on a SIC RS 14x24.5. What a great looking board. He was no slouch and he was gone. He paddled around both islands about 1.5-2 ks longer and I took the short cut between the islands. So I came out infront and as he overtook me I thought I could get a tow from him. Nope,he was gone again. I have only tried this a few times though.
 Anyhow I go and see him and have a chat in the car park. He has owned various boards from various brands and does the odd race. He loves this board. Not as fast as others at certain times but overall over a 10 k race he loves it and will not change boards again for awhile he said. A little heavier than some but great construction.
 It is just a beautiful looking board. All the curves look right. It glides through the water beautifully. The one thing he said at 85 kgs it could have a little more volume or higher sides for winter paddling here. He didn't won't to go wider to get more volume.
 
 
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: PonoBill on September 08, 2019, 09:07:33 AM
Pretty slick. Are the frames laser cut? I don't see any of the telltale dark edges.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on September 09, 2019, 03:32:37 AM
No not laser cut. CNC router.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Area 10 on September 09, 2019, 08:55:06 AM
I went for a paddle yesterday and there was a guy on a SIC RS 14x24.5. What a great looking board. He was no slouch and he was gone. He paddled around both islands about 1.5-2 ks longer and I took the short cut between the islands. So I came out infront and as he overtook me I thought I could get a tow from him. Nope,he was gone again. I have only tried this a few times though.
 Anyhow I go and see him and have a chat in the car park. He has owned various boards from various brands and does the odd race. He loves this board. Not as fast as others at certain times but overall over a 10 k race he loves it and will not change boards again for awhile he said. A little heavier than some but great construction.
 It is just a beautiful looking board. All the curves look right. It glides through the water beautifully. The one thing he said at 85 kgs it could have a little more volume or higher sides for winter paddling here. He didn't won't to go wider to get more volume.
I love my SIC RS. After years of changing race boards I now have no desire to change - the RS is just so pleasant to paddle and its so well thought-through in terms of design and the little things that affect day-to-day ownership enjoyment.

The only thing its not so great at is big downwind. But I have specialist boards for that. And for little downwind ripples it is great, and pretty much everything else too. And obviously, it is fast, as Seychelle etc are showing, in a wide range of race formats.
https://www.appworldtour.com/post/noic-garioud-and-seychelle-webster-claim-sprint-victories-and-overall-victory-in-london

Mark R really scored with the RS design. He apparently went through many prototypes honing the design, and it shows.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: Quickbeam on September 10, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
I love my SIC RS. After years of changing race boards I now have no desire to change - the RS is just so pleasant to paddle and its so well thought-through in terms of design and the little things that affect day-to-day ownership enjoyment.

I have to admit A10, I really do like the looks of the RS. Id love to test paddle one, but I dont know of anyone locally who handles them. Oh well, probably saves me some money and the need to look for space to store yet another board   ;D
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: SupSimcoe on October 03, 2019, 05:48:15 AM
any updates/pics?
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on November 01, 2019, 01:41:38 AM
Still making the panels and finishing another board.
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: tarquin on November 01, 2019, 01:57:42 AM
Panels
Title: Re: Hollow 14ft sup
Post by: SupSimcoe on November 28, 2019, 01:31:54 PM
started construction yet?