Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: tarquin on August 28, 2019, 11:45:23 PM
-
Going to start a build soon. I have designed a 14x25 board. It's going to be a hollow build. I have built hollow wooden boards before. The interior will be 4mm marine ply like a wooden board. I will use a mixture a composite panels for the skin.
Cant decide if I should go as light as possible or use some wood flax etc to keep with the natural look.
Will make up some test panels and see weight strength etc.
-
Good luck, and I admire your skill.
Most self-build SUPs turn out to perform like (expensive) dogs. Mostly this is because of a lack of prototyping, I suspect. So I hope you get luckier. Designing a 14x25 that performs well is obviously harder than it looks because even some of the big brands get it wrong sometimes. But maybe you will get lucky, or you have already done some prototyping.
Please keep posting progress pics as this project comes along. It is inspiring to see what other people can build. Good luck!
-
Yes I have contemplated this and might build a plywood prototype. I think by looking at the design it doesn't look like a dog but you never know.
A quick design brief. I am 45,1.79cm and 83kgs. I have been paddling for many years. Some times 2-3 times a week. So.etimes once every few months! I live in Cannes in France so all the paddling I do is around here. Its rarely calm and always some sort of chop swell wind to deal with. Winter is coming and the water is about to drop 10+ degrees. Winter is when I get to paddle more as well.
That's why its 25 wide and about 300l. 4cm sunken deck and a concave underneath to a V'd tail.
-
Specs out a little like my 25” Blackfish, should be a great all rounder.
Looking forward to seeing the final product.
-
The blackfish,evo 2 and RS were boards I studied a lot and watched/read as many reviews as possible.
-
The blackfish,evo 2 and RS were boards I studied a lot and watched/read as many reviews as possible.
Which of those did you actually try though?
Sounds like an awesome project. Something I'm planning to do my self. I have a design pretty much ready to go (14x25 funny enough) but taking notes on some new boards on the market to see if there's anything I can take.
I rode/had all the board you mentioned plus many more. I am pretty much your specs so a lot of similarities. Maybe we should talk, I was thinking crowd funding project if there was enough interest.
-
Dave B. describes a subtle bottom change from 2018 to 2019 on the Blackfish. From a rounded concave to more of an inverted v. (An inverted v might be a little easier to execute with 4mm ply than a rounded concave.)
If you haven't seen the vid yet, here it is.
https://vimeo.com/330895202
-
Dave B. describes a subtle bottom change from 2018 to 2019 on the Blackfish. From a rounded concave to more of an inverted v.
Scratch that Bean. We’re are now at double concave on the 2020 Blackfish.
How’s that work for plywood? Probably not so much.
Probably better stick with flat. It faster anyway.
-
Haven't seen anything on the 2020, is that a double concave, as in a side by side cathederal shape?
My fastest distance board was my Fantic Fly Race (pretty flat bottom for sure) but it did have a couple of other shortcomings.
-
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
Burchas I would be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?
-
Frames and design. Maybe if I figure out how to attatch them!
-
Frames.
-
Starting to look into a materials shopping list. Not going to be that much cheaper to do a plywood proto so just go for it. Not going to go crazy though. S-glass is still half the price of carbon.
Looking at 3mm 60 or 80 kg foam core with 4 oz S-glass both sides. Probably just go 80. 6 mm end grain balsa with 4 oz S-glass both sides for the recessed standing area. Maybe bamboo veneer where you stand. Extra layers of glass where needed.
I was thinking of making different panels for different areas but it gets too expensive. Maybe on the next build if the design is good.
-
Interesting discussion about the Hypr gun on another thread. This is the other board I am building at the moment(for over a year now)! 11X28. I keep thinking a 14 ft version would be awsome.
Put some wrinkles in the bottom when bagging it. More rocker in the nose than I wanted. Again learning about bagging. I blocked the nose and tail when bagging. Undid the clamps the next day. I guess as the epoxy dried it shrank and ended up with more nose rocker. But not in the tail.
Epoxy takes 2-3 days to dry properly. Longer if its cold.
-
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
Burchas I would be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?
My design had a super subtle concave, but after going with flat bottom for my last 2 boards I changed it to flat as well.
Adding a concave may or may not make your board faster. It might make it track better or have a little more control in certain conditions but one thing for sure is it will add some form of drag. It's so easy to fuck-up a concave design and it happened to the big brands as well. If I'll ever copy bottom contours, I'd make sure it's from one of the mature shapes on the market.
Naish Maliko is one of the most mature shapes, the SIC RS is another. Both very different but very successful shapes. BTW, I consider your Falcon (before they changed its name to Blitz), a mature shape as well and a very good one. Had a good opportunity to put some miles in various conditions on the a 14x23 Falcon prototype Arthur Arutkin paddled just before they renamed it to Blitz. Really good board and one I would definitely be content with in a 14x25.
Have mixed feeling about the EVO 2 and the Blackfish.
I had the EVO 2 14x26 for testing and while it felt much better than the EVO 1, I wasn't too impressed with it compared to RS, Maliko or the Falcon going in small bumps and side wind/chop felt more labored in these conditions imo. One very noticeable difference from previous version was the tail. I was surprised by the ease and control off the tail with this board probably more than all boards mentioned above.
As for the Blackfish, this board has gone under so many changes year over year that it starts to look more like an experiment rather than a shape that's coming into its own (unlike the the Whiplash that really evolved into a great board). This year is no different and if the proto I saw is something to go by, I would not know it's a blackfish unless I was told.
To put it simply, I would much rather have a Falcon (Blitz) than a Blackfish or an Evo 2.
If I was to work on a design being in your situation, I would start with the devil I know and maybe reference some design concepts from mature shapes that are proven year over year.
You never said what's wrong with your Falcon outside the fact you thought it was not the fastest board around?
Also, what are you after with this new board is something you didn't speak about.
-
Thanks for the reply. Very helpful info.
The Falcon I have is the 12'6. The 14 is a totally different board from what I can see and reports I have read. Its just slow in the flat and the nose slaps in any chop. It does just take off on any little bump. Only been out for 2 proper downwind runs and it was great. Easy to steer and I'm not very good. Virtually new with a good bag for less than half the new price. Couldn't say no. Sponsored rider that just got the new 14ft blitz.
What do I want? A good all round board that I can stay up on( yes the Falcon is that) so I guess I just want a 14 ft board. Slowly getting into downwinding. It's always a bit choppy or windy or something around here. Left yesterday morning and it was glassy and within an hour there was just under 10knots of breeze and starting to get a little choppy. Summer so loads of boats around.
This is an experiment of designing and building my own board in a different way for me. I have built hollow wooden boards,vac bagged wood onto foam cores. The last board I did was foam core with 2mm airex innegra and flax on the bottom and Paulownia deck. Nothing new but I like experimenting. Now I want to try a hollow board with composite panels because the wood boards are lovely but heavy.
Did 8 ks yesterday in 1hr 5min. Avg 7.5km/h. Bit of messing about catching boat wakes and stopped for a drink. Can't deal with the camelback. Im usually having a heart attatck and breathing so heavily there is no way I can drink at the same time. Trying to work on all of this.
-
I agree. A good shape is a very subtle blend of things and is hard to achieve. I wouldn’t go too off piste with a first design.
Concaves can add a lot of stability, so can be useful. The Hypr Nalu boards use extreme concaves yet paddle fast. So it can be done - probably there is a point at which being able to go narrower because of the concaves is going to add speed more than the extra drag of concaves scrubs it off. But it might be a bit ambitious for a first build.
In general I think the cautious approach, learning from the best existing boards is the right one. And doing it right: The older Falcons are a case in point, since the 12-6 boards were a lot less successful than the 14s IMO. It was almost like they just chopped the tail off a 14 to make the 12-6, rather than rejigged the shape entirely to accommodate the shorter length, which is what needed to be done. This might be why you have a lukewarm impression of the Falcon?
-
.
-
The frames so you can get a better idea of the shape.
-
Try again. Cant seem to get it all in one!
-
Frames are cut.
-
very nice design. I have a hollow paulownia wood flat deck Clearwood VLZ14 but that looks faster and more stable. Mine is a fast board but lots of wake when I get above 9.5 kph which is where I try to hold it. It also takes a lot of work to keep it stable in any side chop.
I have been thinking that it would be interesting to build a board like this with strips of carbon/foam/fibreglass sandwich instead of wood and then do a bit of carbon under the standing area to re-inforce that area.
-
Funny you should mention the VLZ I4. Amazing looking board. I almost bought that kit. I don't think this will be as fast but it should be more stable.
Randy at Clearwood cut the frames for me.
As I said in the beginning it will be made of composite panels. Foam core panels with S-glass,maybe some flax. Some carbon where needed. Not sure of the exact build method yet. There might be some Paulownia in there somewhere.
No idea what the design is going to be like so don't wont to spend ages or a lot of money on the first board.
-
Looks good so far. Plenty of volume....
-
Looks like a fun project. I want to do the same someday. Have you considered putting limber holes in the frames so the inevitable leaks can drain nose to tail?
-
Haven't tried any of them. Can't afford to buy one let alone all of them. Really hard to find boards around here. Lots in the North of France. I have a 2018 Fanatic Falcon 12'6x26.75. Super stable. Not the best flatwater board but good downwind. Haven't seen the 2020 blackfish! Yes double concave starting to get tricky.
I really thought hard about the concave. Most boards seem to have them now so I thought I would try it. If it looks too complicated I can just glue a strip of ply across the frames with the concave and make it flat.
Burchas I would be interested in a brief report of the pros and cons of the boards you had like the blackfish. Will your design have a concave?
My design had a super subtle concave, but after going with flat bottom for my last 2 boards I changed it to flat as well.
Adding a concave may or may not make your board faster. It might make it track better or have a little more control in certain conditions but one thing for sure is it will add some form of drag. It's so easy to fuck-up a concave design and it happened to the big brands as well. If I'll ever copy bottom contours, I'd make sure it's from one of the mature shapes on the market.
Naish Maliko is one of the most mature shapes, the SIC RS is another. Both very different but very successful shapes. BTW, I consider your Falcon (before they changed its name to Blitz), a mature shape as well and a very good one. Had a good opportunity to put some miles in various conditions on the a 14x23 Falcon prototype Arthur Arutkin paddled just before they renamed it to Blitz. Really good board and one I would definitely be content with in a 14x25.
Have mixed feeling about the EVO 2 and the Blackfish.
I had the EVO 2 14x26 for testing and while it felt much better than the EVO 1, I wasn't too impressed with it compared to RS, Maliko or the Falcon going in small bumps and side wind/chop felt more labored in these conditions imo. One very noticeable difference from previous version was the tail. I was surprised by the ease and control off the tail with this board probably more than all boards mentioned above.
As for the Blackfish, this board has gone under so many changes year over year that it starts to look more like an experiment rather than a shape that's coming into its own (unlike the the Whiplash that really evolved into a great board). This year is no different and if the proto I saw is something to go by, I would not know it's a blackfish unless I was told.
To put it simply, I would much rather have a Falcon (Blitz) than a Blackfish or an Evo 2.
If I was to work on a design being in your situation, I would start with the devil I know and maybe reference some design concepts from mature shapes that are proven year over year.
You never said what's wrong with your Falcon outside the fact you thought it was not the fastest board around?
Also, what are you after with this new board is something you didn't speak about.
Blackfish sure does seem to keep winning races with every design anyway so who's to say that's a bad thing? I see the changes as more of a smaller brand being able to be nimble and make the latest greatest. You LA fin guys sure do love your gossip! ;) I saw Junes proto board and it looks sweet! I'm willing to bet it's just a custom at this point and not for 2020.
For a project like this it definitely seems the best approach is to start out simple and evolve from there. I think an all around style shape like the one's mentioned is a great place to start and makes a lot of sense. Especially an all around style design. How about this, you take the bottom of the RS match it to the outline of the Blackfish and take the tail shape from the Fanatic and voila! Go for it have fun with it!
-
Looks like a fun project. I want to do the same someday. Have you considered putting limber holes in the frames so the inevitable leaks can drain nose to tail?
Inevitable leaks!!!!
I have made a few hollow wood boards and they only time they have leaked was when I put a hole in them. Cut a big hole to do the repair and left it in the sun for a couple of days. Then did the repair.
I am 50/50 on limber holes on this one.
BentP. The design is done and the frames are cut. Thanks though.
-
I went for a paddle yesterday and there was a guy on a SIC RS 14x24.5. What a great looking board. He was no slouch and he was gone. He paddled around both islands about 1.5-2 ks longer and I took the short cut between the islands. So I came out infront and as he overtook me I thought I could get a tow from him. Nope,he was gone again. I have only tried this a few times though.
Anyhow I go and see him and have a chat in the car park. He has owned various boards from various brands and does the odd race. He loves this board. Not as fast as others at certain times but overall over a 10 k race he loves it and will not change boards again for awhile he said. A little heavier than some but great construction.
It is just a beautiful looking board. All the curves look right. It glides through the water beautifully. The one thing he said at 85 kgs it could have a little more volume or higher sides for winter paddling here. He didn't won't to go wider to get more volume.
-
Pretty slick. Are the frames laser cut? I don't see any of the telltale dark edges.
-
No not laser cut. CNC router.
-
I went for a paddle yesterday and there was a guy on a SIC RS 14x24.5. What a great looking board. He was no slouch and he was gone. He paddled around both islands about 1.5-2 ks longer and I took the short cut between the islands. So I came out infront and as he overtook me I thought I could get a tow from him. Nope,he was gone again. I have only tried this a few times though.
Anyhow I go and see him and have a chat in the car park. He has owned various boards from various brands and does the odd race. He loves this board. Not as fast as others at certain times but overall over a 10 k race he loves it and will not change boards again for awhile he said. A little heavier than some but great construction.
It is just a beautiful looking board. All the curves look right. It glides through the water beautifully. The one thing he said at 85 kgs it could have a little more volume or higher sides for winter paddling here. He didn't won't to go wider to get more volume.
I love my SIC RS. After years of changing race boards I now have no desire to change - the RS is just so pleasant to paddle and it’s so well thought-through in terms of design and the little things that affect day-to-day ownership enjoyment.
The only thing it’s not so great at is big downwind. But I have specialist boards for that. And for little downwind ripples it is great, and pretty much everything else too. And obviously, it is fast, as Seychelle etc are showing, in a wide range of race formats.
https://www.appworldtour.com/post/noic-garioud-and-seychelle-webster-claim-sprint-victories-and-overall-victory-in-london
Mark R really scored with the RS design. He apparently went through many prototypes honing the design, and it shows.
-
I love my SIC RS. After years of changing race boards I now have no desire to change - the RS is just so pleasant to paddle and it’s so well thought-through in terms of design and the little things that affect day-to-day ownership enjoyment.
I have to admit A10, I really do like the looks of the RS. I’d love to test paddle one, but I don’t know of anyone locally who handles them. Oh well, probably saves me some money and the need to look for space to store yet another board ;D
-
any updates/pics?
-
Still making the panels and finishing another board.
-
Panels
-
started construction yet?
-
It's been a challenge and a bit slow! Now we are in confinement I am working on it again.
-
Inside looks better than the outside I think.
-
Beautiful work! I guess you can really concentrate on a project these days. This is the kind of content that makes the Zone a welcome refuge.
Thank you.
-
Great stuff tarquin! Build threads are the best 8)
-
Thanks for the updates and it looks fantastic.
-
Beauty. Looking good and great work. Serious skill here.
I just caught up on this thread and read through it again. Good information and I’m loving the sup content right now.
-
Inside looks better than the outside I think.
SUP Cathedral ;)
-
Progress and some leash plugs. I will drill holes and epoxy them in from inside. Pass the Dynema loop up through the hole. The Dynema is splayed out and glued between 2 pieces of off cuts from the panels I made.
-
Really cool build. Could you give a bit more detail on the sandwich panel construction?
Love the idea. Is this adapted from boat building?
-
Sound good tarquin. Let's see how it looks when installed.
-
Put some brass inserts in for the Dynema loops to go thru. I would use something a little different next time. It's what I had.Dynema tie down loops. Like they used to make leash loops out of glass.
Surfcowboy, I have made hollow wood boards in the past and wanted to try something different. Yes the idea is taken from boat building.
-
Leas loops are in. 2 in the tail and 1 fwd. Some Dynema tie down points as well. Backing plates behind the leash points. This has to be stronger than plugs for a hollow board.
-
That looks solid enough to outlast the board :D
-
Some biax rail tape.
-
Making progress. Slow but getting close. Playing with color in the epoxy. It's hard to get an even color.
Use more tape! Still got epoxy runs everywhere!
-
Looking really good man! I like the rough look 8) How long before it hits the water?
-
What do you mean " The rough look". Yes no paint to cover up dodgy work here.
Not sure how long. Maybe next weekend. Just need to put the handle in and a coat of epoxy all over. Just a rough coat.
-
Get it wet!
-
Some carbon tape over the join too. Kevlar probably better but I only have wide tape and it looks rubbish.
No one ever said, wow that kevlar stripe looks awsome!
-
Carbon is sooo much cooler than kevlar! 8)
-
The board is looking very nice. BTW, that kevlar stripe would look awesome if you were to use it instead of carbon.
How did you get that rounded shape between the rail and bottom near the nose? It looked like you laid up panels on a flat surface. Were they flexible enough to bend over the frames? I would have expected some sharp transitions like a hard chine.
-
The bottom panel I only layed up inside. 2mm foam 165g carbon kevlar hybrid. I glued that to the frames then faired and glassed.
It was really easy. It almost stuck itself down!
The panels on the sides ended up with a chine as they were a little too stiff and didn't follow the curve of the frame.
-
Getting close.
-
Don't paint it! I would paddle a board that looks like that in a second. Nicely done.
-
Don't paint it! I would paddle a board that looks like that in a second. Nicely done.
+1. It will stand out for sure. Very special. (maybe save a pound or two on weight?)
-
Dont worry no intention of painting it.
-
Got it wet!!
Short paddle. Didn't snap in half, didn't sink. All good.
Seemed plenty stable and tracked well. Calm but there were lots of boats about so a bit choppy. Still a little swell from the breeze and paddling with it the board had that feeling it wanted to go. Stood a bit too far fwd and buried the nose and tracked straight. Surprising how little chop it takes to come over the bow. Dosnt come back into the standing area though. Standing area seems to drain ok when water does get in there. When I'm not standing on the drain holes! Really like the recessed standing area and being able to push the sides of your feet against the vertical part. Need to get some pad! Bit slippery!
-
Super 8) Congrats. What’s the weight on this newborn?
-
Great job. Nothing like paddling something you designed and built
-
Looks great! Just in time for summer... 8)
-
Turned out pretty heavy. About 13.5 kgs. I think it's just under 14. Not too happy about that. Didn't do a final weigh. Last time I weighed it was before the handle went in and final coat of epoxy.
-
My paulownia board is 17.6kg with deck pad but it’s way overbuilt
-
13-14 KG is not bad all things considered. Especially if the construction is bomber? Not ideal for racing but other than that pretty good.
-
Take a look at RSPRO's hexapad, especially the cork version. It would look great on that board and the weight is a fraction of traditional pads.
-
I have used hexapad or equivalent but found it uncomfortable for longer paddles. I plan to use cork. I have loads left from other boards I've built. I just couldn't wait to get it on the water.
-
I generally use a small pad where my feet go usually and then hexatraction elsewhere. I've found hexatraction holds wax as long or longer than a waxed pad, which means I wax them once and then never again until I notice my feet slipping--which so far is never. I wish I didn't have a standard pad on my flying dutchman foil board, I'm sure it's adding a few pounds when it's wet.
The Hexatraction cork panels feel much better than the standard ones. I figure on using them together on boards, with the cork ones where my feet usually go and standard elsewhere. I "designed" a six-pointed star pattern that I planned to make a die to cut cork. The idea was to have a cool pattern that interleaved. The day before I planned to make the die the Hexatraction cork pads came out and I shelved the project and bought two packages. Other than standing on them to test how they feel (good) I haven't had occasion to do anything with them.
-
I'd like to have a small CNC router to do woodwork and cork pads. One day.
I tried to convince a company I buy rolls of cork from in Portugal to start making eco pads for surfboards and SUPs ages ago. They weren't interested. I have different densities and thickness. The lower density stuff is obviously softer and more comfortable but falls apart easier and dosnt last as long.
My daughter loves her cork decked board.
-
Not a great shot. Main cork pad done. A little strip on the vertical where my foot rubs as well.
I will paddle it some more and add bits where I need them.
-
I'd like to have a small CNC router to do woodwork and cork pads. One day.
I bought one of the Sainsmart routers to play around with and gave it to my grandson after i'd played around w bit. 269 bucks. I think they even have a cheaper one. Really good design, easy to build, easy to use. You can add a laser module for cutting and engraving for another 150 bux.
https://www.sainsmart.com/products/sainsmart-genmitsu-cnc-router-pro-diy-kit
-
Can't really afford any more toys at the moment. That looks like what I want. Just a little bigger.
Took the board for a longer paddle. 10 K. Really happy with it. It's very stable even in slightly choppy conditions. Bit of swell and the board really takes off. Managed to get 1 ride on a larger swell over a shallow patch. The board took off and handled nicely. Didn't do anything strange. Managed to average just over 8 km/h for 5 km. The second 5 was a bit slower!
Happy in general. Just a bit disappointed with the weight.
-
Bit of an update. Loving the board. I have read reviews where people say this board is really stable and thought hmm,maybe you just have good balance. But I am going to say it. This board is crazy stable. I can really concentrate on paddling even when its bumpy. Easy too look around etc. Side chop isnt a problem. Friends that dont really paddle look at it and go no way. Then I convince them to have a go and they are surprised how stable it is.
It slips along nicely and takes off on little runners.
So there must be some negatives. I went for a downwind yesterday. 20-25kts but only wind chop, no swell really as it was blowing across the bay. First time out on this board in some wind and tried paddling up wind side on etc. All OK. So I point too where I want too go and it's not really downwind. It's OK in the beginning as it's just windy. When the chop picks up and you are not going dead downwind and the waves are not big enough too get surfing I really struggled. The big boxy tail was getting pushed around and when you start to take off on a runner and at an angle the board just veers off. Long boxy shape and sharp rails. If I stood back to get the fwd part of the board out I just stopped. Once the waves were a bit bigger it was better. The board takes off. When you can step back and get the nose out it flies. Cant wait too get it out in some slightly bigger waves.
The other problem with the big boxy shape is getting back on the board. Definitely more of a struggle.
Good thing about a heavy board is it doesn't fly away when you do fall off. Bad thing is getting going each time when you come off the back of a wave and trying to lift it onto the car after a session! Its bomb proof though. Given it some good hits and bashed the tail and nose moving it around. No paint to chip. Got some good scratches so just gave the area a quick sand and a coat of epoxy and all good again.
So need a new project! Same board but narrower or something different?
-
Turned out pretty heavy. About 13.5 kgs. I think it's just under 14. Not too happy about that.
Congratulations on the board. It looks fantastic.
What would you do to reduce the weight? Could you use high density foam laminates for the frames and stringers?
-
So need a new project! Same board but narrower or something different?
Maybe something different. This one sounds like a winner. Great Job!
-
Turned out pretty heavy. About 13.5 kgs. I think it's just under 14. Not too happy about that.
Congratulations on the board. It looks fantastic.
What would you do to reduce the weight? Could you use high density foam laminates for the frames and stringers?
The plywood frame kit isnt very heavy.
I think lighter lay up all round. The hybrid carbon kevlar on the inside is over kill in most places.
The bottom ended up with dips between the frames as I used a light lay up to be able to bend the panel into shape. This meant quite a bit of filling and fairing.
I am still thinking a 23" inch version could be great on calmer days.
Loving the waist leash with the leash point just infront of where you stand as well.