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General Category => Random => Topic started by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 04:23:56 AM

Title: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 04:23:56 AM
It seems like 2020 may be the year that we start seeing viable surf EV's in the USA.  I am stoked on that idea!  The Mercedes EQV van looks really nice with 253 miles of range.  An 80% charge in 45 minutes sounds good.  99 MPH will make Chan happy.  I still yell at people for flashing me off at 65 "what's your rush, Andretti".  Looks like Mercedes, VW and possibly others will also have some smaller SUV's available.  The VW ID BUZZ looks great as well but I believe that is slated for 2022.  Hopefully the US sees all of these.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1124642_mercedes-benz-eqv-electric-minivan-revealed

(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2020-mercedes-benz-eqv_100712526_h.jpg)

(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2020-mercedes-benz-eqc_100673478_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on August 22, 2019, 04:46:36 AM
yeah, i need new wheels but have been waiting for something hybrid/electric in the cargo van style. the VW Buzz looks awesome, but VW's have such a bad rep in general. That Mercedes looks like another bland minivan. Is it really that hard to deliver a good looking van? (apparently so). And it seems there would be a market for utility vehicles like this that don't require heavy hauling/towing capacities, thereby delivering much better energy efficiency, be it fuel or battery.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 04:55:15 AM
I've been looking at the Jeep Renegade pug-in hybrid to replace my CRV:

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/jeep/2019-jeep-renegade-hybrid-ar184867.html

Not a complete hybrid, but it gets about 30 miles.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 06:27:52 AM
Yeah, I would buy one of these today if they were available.  370 HP, 300 Miles. They are doing a cargo version as well.  2022, though.  Faking emissions testing will be less of an issue with no emissions :).

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-bus-is-back-and-its-electric/

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SjtCYcAT69n8O17HUDxD1ATnTWo=/0x0:6000x4000/1820x1213/filters:focal(2520x1520:3480x2480):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56271355/id_buzz_concept_7416.0.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2019, 06:42:55 AM
I should have kept Diane's 2014 Model S and used it as general transport. A perfectly cherry, low miles P85+ for 45K is ridiculously cheap. They actually have provision for a rack. Anyone looking at inexpensive electric cars should take a hard look at the used Model S market. Cars that sold new for 130K selling for 35K. Fantastic cars. Any of the dual-motor cars with appropriate rubber would be a fine surfmobile in the WTF category. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 07:35:21 AM
Yeah, I would buy one of these today if they were available.  370 HP, 300 Miles. They are doing a cargo version as well.  2022, though.  Faking emissions testing will be less of an issue with no emissions :).

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-bus-is-back-and-its-electric/

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SjtCYcAT69n8O17HUDxD1ATnTWo=/0x0:6000x4000/1820x1213/filters:focal(2520x1520:3480x2480):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56271355/id_buzz_concept_7416.0.jpg)

Yeah, those new VWs are really cute. I can't see myself getting a full electric vehicle yet, but I like the progress. I wish there were more plug-in hybrids out there, especially ones that aren't sedans.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 22, 2019, 08:43:13 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-quality-durability-on-display-in-450k-mile-car-still-going-strong/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: abmatt on August 22, 2019, 09:41:56 AM
    It'll be fun to watch this unfold. I have a few years before retirement, and would love to have a full EV surf car by then.
   For now I'm super-happy with my commuter beach-to-downtown car, a 2015 Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid) that goes months between fill-ups. I've driven it a little more than 12K miles and used 69 gallons (most of those on two 750-mile road trips). Overnight charges on the porch and 176 mpg. Love the silent ride -- I hear a muscle car snorting and wheezing next to me and it sounds so prehistoric. Yeah, smugness is a real risk with these things.
    Should put racks on it, but for now the 8-6 fits nicely on the passenger side when the seats are down.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 22, 2019, 09:45:40 AM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 22, 2019, 11:12:46 AM
That's got to be one of the uglies SUV's I've ever seen, where can I get one?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2019, 04:56:37 PM
Yup, fugly, but I'd order one if they were actually available. It will be interesting to see who gets to market first. Preorder doesn't count. There are lots of renderings around of what the Tesla pickup will look like. I think this one from Motor Trend is the most likely:

(https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2016/08/tesla-pickup-truck-right-front-angle-1.jpg?fit=around%7C875:492)

If it looks anything like that and performs as they claim, yeah, take my money. Want that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

From what I'm reading, Ford is working with Rivian to develop their electric pickups.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 22, 2019, 05:52:21 PM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

From what I'm reading, Ford is working with Rivian to develop their electric pickups.
And a little company called Amazon.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 23, 2019, 04:20:20 AM
The Rivians look very cool and have amazing specs.  90K though for a pickup or SUV with the bigger battery.  The 230 mile range option is 70K but I wonder if you would be able to sell it in a few years with that lower range.  That is less of an issue on a less expensive vehicle. 

The VW ID 3 has a lot of preorders at 33K for a small crossover.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 23, 2019, 11:46:51 AM
It's tough to consider anything but a Tesla. They have such a commanding lead in battery tech, range, experience, charger network, and ratings that I don't really understand why anyone buys any basic sedan other than a Model 3. The new V3 supercharger gives 75 miles of range in five minutes--250 KW per hour. If you have a P100 extended range you can top off at 375 miles of range in 25 minutes. Model S has been Motor Trend's car of the year every year since 2013.

But yeah, I want a pickup. For the things people use pickups for it has to have a heck of a battery. The motor part is easy, the delivered torque of even a model S is substantially more than my 6.7-liter diesel. But if you're going to pull a 15000-pound trailer you're gonna need a lot of stored power.

Apparently, Tesla has that well in hand with the semi. The spy reports on their testing have been that the truck at a max load of about 44,000 pounds the truck not only pulls 5% grades at 65 mph (unheard of) but also gets more than the projected 500 miles of range. It's got one gear. The controls consist of a steering wheel, brake pedal and throttle. one gear--reverse runs the motor backward. Without a trailer, it did 0-60 in 4.9 seconds.

Those are insane specifications, but not all that surprising. Trains have been electric for decades--the diesel drives a generator, and the wheels are driven by big old-tech motors. The advantage has always been full torque from 0 rpm and no need for a transmission or a clutch. The only maintenance is to the diesel and wheel replacement. Some of the motors are 40 years old and have covered multiple millions of miles.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 24, 2019, 01:27:56 AM
I dig Tesla but right now they are essentially a luxury brand ($80K + starting prices) with one more moderately priced Sedan https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla .  The Model 3 is a terrific vehicle but, sedan.  Even Ford is over those :).  The model Y is a cool design but looks too small for boards in back (unless we start to get much better).  I really wish that they were doing an Outback sized vehicle.  So, the truck may be the first one that really does it.  Let's hope they give it a little more grit than the computer images. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Badger on August 24, 2019, 04:34:11 AM
I hate sedans. Every car should be a station wagon IMO, no matter what the size. It's much more practical.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 24, 2019, 07:03:17 AM
I consider the Model 3 to be fairly goofy--why isn't it a hatchback? I realize not many folks take a Sawzall to their new car but that's what I'd do if I had one. Take the back seat out and remove the divider between the trunk and cab. Utility first. I saw a youtube video about a young lady who turned a model S into a pickup. I got kind of excited about that (like I need another project) but then came to my senses. I need tow capacity, the Tesla S doesn't have it.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on August 24, 2019, 07:56:47 AM
Pono

Yes the Tesla 3 would be much better as a hatchback. I am awaiting the Y. It looks like Tesla is continuing to push the technology with a simplified wiring that will decrease the amount required by an order of magnitude. No one has mentioned
the eKona as a surf vehicle. We test drove one in the spring and were impressed. The surfboards would need to go on the roof rack. Reports of up to 500 km range for this small SUV are enticing.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 24, 2019, 11:33:29 AM
Yeah, the wiring tech Tesla is implementing is very cool stuff. I'm doing the DIY version in my motorhome, using MQQT and CanBus to eliminate the rat's nest that GMC installed in 1978 and some goofball restoration shop added horrifically to. All the DC switching for lights, water pump, air compressor for the suspension bags, etc. is being locally controlled at the device with an ESP32 microcontroller so it can be switched with a pushbutton at the device, wirelessly with a smartphone or remotely from the dash or control center wirelessly. It sounds like a stupid way to do something you can do equally well with a little wire and a cheap switch, but hey: Geek.

But given the wad of wiring I've taken out of the moho compared to just providing 12V to the devices, it's pretty elegant. The only exception is tail lights, brake lights, and turn indicators, and I was sorely tempted there as well, but reason prevailed.

Of course, if I ever sell this thing the new owner will be buying a whole bunch of exotic shit with minimal documentation and my crappy spaghetti code. Good luck future dude.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 26, 2019, 08:18:15 AM
Whew!  I watched this all the way through and these Rivians are super impressive.  The specs and capabilities are awesome.  The little details are right there as well.  Check out the tailgate and racking system at the end. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 26, 2019, 08:37:22 AM
And then there is Bollinger. 

https://youtu.be/7yIChwMkpQ8
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 26, 2019, 10:52:58 AM
Pono, and any one else, I have a couple of questions and comments:

(1) Why the press on being all-electric. Wouldn't it be more practical to go hybrid, that way you can use the existing gas station infrastructure and no more range anxiety.

(2) I read somewhere that, although they don't have transmissions, Teslas actually do have more than one gear. As explained, the gear ratios are different for the front and rear wheels and the computer distributes fore/aft power differently at different speeds, effectively providing different gearing at different driving conditions.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
1. Hybrid is an intermediate solution, and like most such things includes the worst of both solutions spiced with a little taste of the best. The maintenance and complexity of internal combustion added to the limited range of small batteries and the weight of two drivetrains multiplied by the expense of both. They will probably die faster than pure ICE. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefit of ownership--we have a Chevy Volt in Maui that both Diane and I think is a really great car. But GMC had no way to make money with the Volt, so they killed it. Prius is the only really successful hybrid, and it achieves success with an amazing level of suckiness. Ride in a new Prius and your reaction will be "well, this doesn't suck as much as the early Prius". Ride in a new Model S or Model 3--even the base level--and your reaction is "Holy shit."

Range anxiety is a function of available chargers and charge rate. Having a charger available halfway through your trip that charges at 10KWH and therefore takes eight and a half hours to charge your car doesn't solve anxiety unless it's at a hotel and it's time for bed.   The current supercharger network mitigates that and will ultimately be much more efficient than carrying an entire gasoline-powered generator that displaces the larger battery that would solve the issue in 99 percent of the cases. If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational. That's why Tesla builds cars that make you say "Holy shit, this is awesome" rather than "Gee whiz, this suits all my potential uses but it's gutless and ugly". The supercharger network is getting a massive and relatively inexpensive (compared to building them in the first place) upgrade to 250KWH per charger. That's 1000 miles per hour of charge. Of course, you can't store that much, but that's what it is. Full charge for a 100KW car in 24 minutes. And no one charges to full power, so it's actually 85% in 21 minutes. And few people come in with no charge remaining, it's usually more like 40% left, charging to 85% which is ten minutes--pretty much what it takes to visit a gas station.

2. Actually, the dual-motor Model 3 has different motors front and rear. Not just different ratios but different underlying physics. Reluctance vs. Induction. They have a single-speed gear reduction, but I don't know if the ratios are different. Current Model S and X cars have single-speed gear reduction, 9.34:1 in the small drive units that go in the front of dual motor Teslas or the rear of the lowest spec Model S. The bigger motor rear-drive gear ratio is 9.73:1 in the dual motor and higher spec single motor S/X. Yes, the computer constantly shifts the balance of power applied to the front or rear of dual motor units to get the highest efficiency for a given speed and throttle setting, but it's not just the gear ratios, it's the size and performance characteristics of the motors. The dual-motor cars actually have better range/KWH than single motor despite having a lot more horsepower available--like almost double. Diane's grocery-getter five-passenger extended-range Model S has 642 horsepower and 585 ft-lbs of torque. The performance version is about 715.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on August 26, 2019, 04:13:41 PM
Haven't seen anything to replace my Element, but at the same time electric seems to be progressing more than fast enough to make me feel like I'd regret buying any gas car now.  So just need the Element to hold on for another couple years, which seems fine considering it's basically faultless.


As of the moment, I like the BMW i8, not because it'd be good for boards, but because they put a photo of my dog with one on their BMWi instagram page today that's getting thousands of likes every hour.  Hopefully they'll give my dog a new one.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 26, 2019, 04:23:40 PM
Bill,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I asked broad question, so your reply appropriately paints with a broad brush.

To refine a couple of points: I can appreciate that "If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational." But I think I'm a pretty rational guy. Last time I was in a Prius I thought it was a damn fine car, and I drive a Cayenne, but the 6-cylinder one, and that VW bus looks super -- but then again I don't race Peyote in my spare time.

I live in Miami, and my commute, which is 90% of my driving, is 25 miles opposite traffic, perfect for a Tesla. But its the other 10% that requires I maintain excess range capacity. The closest waves are 100-200 miles away, on the interstate. When surf is up, usually because a storm is brushing by (Go Dorian!), the routine is up before dawn, drive north between 100-200 miles to find the right break, park at the beach, surf until sundown and then limp the same distance home. I can't really be renting a car to do this. I've concluded that I either have to keep what I have, jump into a hybrid, despite the compromises you eloquently listed, or wait (how many years?) until all the gas stations are replaced with superchargers. Am I wrong? Is there a better solution? Also, do you expect that supercharger stations will be built next to existing gas stations, or will there be a period where a station will sell you both gas and a charge?

Jorge


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
The concentration of supercharger stations in Florida is ridiculous, surpassed only by a few other places. If I were you I'd by a used Model S for about 30-40K that has lifetime free supercharging (Any Tesla bought before September 2018) and never worry about gasoline again. Charge in your garage every night and wake up with a full "tank". Never stop at a gas station again. Yes, the lifetime free supercharging goes with the car. People are starting to realize that and are grabbing them up. Imagine buying a used Celica that came with free fillups for life. You'd keep that forever. There is a four-station 120KW supercharger on Marathon! You are surrounded by them, you just don't know about them. Del Rey beach, 35 superchargers at 72 KWH, West Palm, 9 superchargers, 120KW, Aventura, 36 superchargers, 72 KW. Between Miami and Cocoa beach, there are nine supercharger locations, and three in Miami.

All up and down the east coast, you can't get more than about a hundred miles from a Supercharger. With a few moments of planning, you can drive for the rest of the car's life for free, and the car could live for a million miles. Really, no shit. Maintenance is a joke. No oil, no grease, no nothing. Little things die, but like most electronics, make it past the first 20K miles and it's good for a very long time.

A 2014 P85+ will eat your Porsche's lunch.  One pedal, Press down hard. Done. You can get racks for it, and never go to another Porsche dealership in your life. It's actually a seven-passenger hatchback (if someone opted for the two kid seats in the back). Drop the back seats and you have a huge cargo space. And a "frunk" that's as big as most car's trunk. Brake pads have infinite life (more than 90 percent of braking is regenerative). Every so often you need to do a hard emergency stop to clean the oxidation off the disks. Tesla once paid a $245K fine for not having an OBDII connector within two feet of the steering wheel. They added one. It fundamentally reads nothing. Connects to the can bus, but there isn't anything in CAFE compliance to read.

Get in one and drive it. That's all it takes. You'll ditch your Cayenne so fast it will make your head spin. Makes me nuts that people don't get this. The future is here, it's just unevenly distributed.

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=50.164646070149935%2C-54.18220367399982%2C31.693201564706058%2C-102.34626617399982&filters=supercharger&zoom=6&location=topekasupercharger
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 27, 2019, 07:52:36 AM
Bill, I'm glad we had this chat. Thanks, Jorge
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:05:12 PM
I had a similar conversation with a friend a few months ago. He went off, did his own research, and bought a used 2018 100D for 51K. A few weeks later he texted me this: "Fastest, quickest, cheapest, most reliable, safest, environmentally responsible, comfortable, most cargo space, best amenities, best audio, automatically updating, autosteering, smartest, most comfortable, most beautiful car I've ever had. How did I not know this!"

I texted him back: "Motor Trend Car of the Year for the last seven years and they never took out a single ad in Motor Trend. What exactly the fuck does it take??"

I haven't heard back. Maybe I should have just smugly smiled instead of smugly replying.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:22:26 PM
All this makes me realize what a dope I am. I'm waiting for the Tesla Truck so I can have the towing capacity I no longer need. I bought my F350 truck because my previous one developed a monster oil leak I didn't want to deal with. Essentially I paid $65K for it if I value the trade-in appropriately.

I've decided to retire from road racing, so I actually don't need to drag my airstream race car hauler any more. So I don't really need the truck--I love the silly thing, but I really don't need it. I could ditch it and buy a used Tesla P100D. It's nuts that I don't. I love driving Diane's car.

I have to think about this.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 28, 2019, 10:47:44 AM
PB,

I went by the local Tesla dealer last night. With the kids grown-up and gone the Model S seems like too much car. And I'm not thrilled with the Model 3's conservative styling. I like the layout of SUV's like my Cayenne, higher driving position, back seat for the dog, all my shit in the back area. The Model X would be a great replacement if only that roof line and gull-wing doors didn't interfere with Racks for the boards.
Maybe I'm not that rational after all.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on August 28, 2019, 10:57:39 AM
Agreed... Tesla needs to put a roof over the bed of its vapor pickup.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 12:09:26 PM
Totally rational--I think the model X sucks toads--wouldn't have one. The wing doors are beyond stupid. Needless complexity that compromises the utility. An SUV you can't put a rack on? If they did an X with doors like a minivan I'd buy one even though I think don't like the glass roof either. Any time you need to jump through hoops to have a front window visor that works it's time to rethink the design goals.  I love the model S. Maybe you need to wait for the Y. I have no idea why they made the 3 a sedan. Who wants that?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 31, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
Here is the Tesla model 'P'......Hmmmm. I guess it's halfway to the model 'V'. Kinda Power-Wagon ish. Maybe not?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-unveiling-of-a-pickup-truck-is-right-around-the-corner-2019-08-31



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2019, 09:03:48 PM
A seriously dopey article and the comments on Marketwatch are as stupid as anything I've seen on Youtube. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. The author says Farmers need to be able to fix their F150's in the field. Really? What kind of bozo do you need to be to think that's either possible or relevant?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Didn't notice that anyone's posted this one yet--just need to figure out where the board goes:


https://www.motortrend.com/news/save-pennies-vw-likely-build-id-buggy/ (https://www.motortrend.com/news/save-pennies-vw-likely-build-id-buggy/)


(https://media.wired.com/photos/5d56e031017c5c0008bdec24/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/Transpo_VWDune_IBA27214.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 05:52:57 PM
A seriously dopey article and the comments on Marketwatch are as stupid as anything I've seen on Youtube. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. The author says Farmers need to be able to fix their F150's in the field. Really? What kind of bozo do you need to be to think that's either possible or relevant?
Not a lot of farmers here in Portland (or Seattle) but lots of pickups, and I'd guess zero percent of owners of trucks built within the last several years work on them. 


He also wrote, "Unlike tech enthusiasts, they value utility and durability far more than gimmicks..."  with "they" being "its target audience: truck owners, farmers and technicians (among others)".

What I see being valued by new truck owners here is size, chrome, weight, the color black, and huge emblems with names like "titanium".  Utility and durability may be what they delude themselves into thinking their trucks provide, if they care at all.  Maybe a couple decades ago people who would have previously bought passenger cars switched over to buying trucks because they WERE practical, spacious and a good value.  Then automakers saw that people who weren't typical truck people were buying them, assumed it was because of image, and started designing trucks to deliver the image they thought customers wanted--at the expense of practicality and function.

Once a Ford executive bragged that their truck buyers had the highest income of buyers of all truck brands.  Then someone pointed out that's because they'd made them unaffordable.

Same thing happened with vehicles like Jeeps and other SUVs, which became "mall crawlers" and phrases like "lockers before lightbars" (or vice versa, as people saw looks-before-function as being positive) got coined.

Now trucks are caricatures, to the point a lot of people who could use a truck would be ashamed to be seen in one.  So I think there's a market for a vehicle with a truck bed, without the overblown truck image.



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 01, 2019, 07:18:28 PM
PDX....I totally disagree. You like the web so go online and look at boat ramps across the USA.  All Trucks. Look at what people are pulling RVís with. Your Yugoslav just  isnít going to cut it. You need to get away from Portland once in awhile. Even Pono has one..... 8)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 01, 2019, 07:29:43 PM
Question....Whatís the number one selling vehicle on Maui? Toyota Tacoma....I rest my case.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 01, 2019, 09:07:25 PM
Actually, Jeep Wrangler slipped by the Tacoma in HI.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 09:26:21 PM
Question....Whatís the number one selling vehicle on Maui? Toyota Tacoma....I rest my case.
Well, I did say I was talking about trucks "here", not Maui, so I'm not sure what case you're resting.

Even so, you're making my point for me.  Tacomas have grown over the years, too, but they look like compacts now in comparison to other brands' current models.  Their styling also hasn't gone full steroided-out like other brands.  They're very popular here, too, especially among people who use their trucks as actual trucks, versus driving to the office or store.  So it's no surprise they're so popular among truck buyers, as the other makes have swelled in size and price, and largely abandoned the smaller-truck market to them.  I'm not sure if the specs of all brands would bear that out, but it's certainly my impression.




Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 10:00:36 PM
PDX....I totally disagree. You like the web so go online and look at boat ramps across the USA.  All Trucks. Look at what people are pulling RVís with. Your Yugoslav just  isnít going to cut it. You need to get away from Portland once in awhile. Even Pono has one..... 8)
Ironic that you mention boat ramps.  I live close to one, and have walked through the lot at least daily over the last decade, so a few thousand times over the last several years.  My comments were based in large part on what I've seen there.  Trucks are getting larger with more muscular styling.  Older full-size Fords or Chevys look midsize now.  Plus, almost every newer truck has at least an extended cab, with lots of them having full, four-door cabs.  Not true with older trucks.

And of course people are using trucks to pull RVs and boat trailers.  Passenger cars and smaller SUV's aren't appropriate for that.

I never said trucks weren't popular, which seems to be all that you got out of my comments.  I said they're getting larger with more exaggerated styling, and that I think there's a market for trucks whose designs aren't  focused on size, chrome, and "truck" image.  The trucks of 1990 or 2000 were pulling heavy loads, too, and they look absolutely stripped down and lean compared to their descendants today.  I think plenty of owners of newer trucks today would prefer more options for that type of truck compared to what's been available to them recently.  And, as I said earlier, I think there are plenty of people who wouldn't buy a truck today who might if they could buy something more like the Tesla. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Weasels wake on September 02, 2019, 10:00:43 AM
Four wheels, four wheels, for wheels, how about only two wheels.  As posted on the Rad Power Bike Owners Group page on Bookface.  The Rad Rover, same bike as mine, but I haven't done this.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 04, 2019, 07:15:09 AM
How about just Onewheel 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQY-COxpcw like this
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 10:40:29 AM
Even Pono has one..... 8)

Zero percent working on them is for sure. Besides the fact that you can't do anything to them without disassembling half the vehicle, you also need to understand the vagaries of CanBus and OBDII before you screw with one. I've been studying that stuff for weeks now so I can wire my motorhome project without a few miles of point-to-point wiring, and I still would touch a modern vehicle that had any kind of warranty.

I'm kind of done with my F350. It's a bit pointless. I bought it to haul my race car trailer, but now I'm not racing. And yeah, mine is huge. Diane has to throw herself at it to get in the cab. But I've got it, so until something electric comes along with a utility aspect I'm stuck with it. The only time I use it as a truck is when I take a trailer full of shop trash to the dump--which is about 300 yards from my shop. I've got a trailer hitch on my tractor--I could use that instead.

Until the wind picks back up I'm riding my Norton. Or my eBike. Even when the wind comes back if I'm not crossing the Button Bridge I should can use the eBike to wingfoil. It's all set up for it.

About 70 percent of the vehicles sold in the USA are Pickups and truck frame SUV's. (from Statistica--In 2018, the U.S. auto industry sold about 17.2 million light vehicle units. This figure includes the retail sales of 5.3 million autos and 11.9 million light truck units.) Need for a truck has almost nothing to do with those numbers. If you wonder why Ford has basically exited the auto biz, there's your answer.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 04, 2019, 11:22:30 AM
Even Pono has one..... 8)

I'm kind of done with my F350. It's a bit pointless. I bought it to haul my race car trailer, but now I'm not racing. And yeah, mine is huge. Diane has to throw herself at it to get in the cab. But I've got it, so until something electric comes along with a utility aspect I'm stuck with it. The only time I use it as a truck is when I take a trailer full of shop trash to the dump--which is about 300 yards from my shop. I've got a trailer hitch on my tractor--I could use that instead.

Same here with my F250. Used to pull a Fifth-Wheel with it. Sold the Fifth-Wheel years ago. It's a 2002 with just over 100k miles. The interior is like new and it runs great. I only put about 3K miles a year on it now. I do use it here and there, and I have a place to park it, so doesn't make sense to sell it.
Our next car will be electric.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 04, 2019, 01:03:21 PM
in nyc electric will be a problem--most people park on the streets which require cars be moved around for weekly street-cleaning (really a ruse to write 140$ tickets--they rarely clean and dog owners were forced to start picking up after their dogs some 30 years ago) so few new yorkers will have regular access to any non-service-station power sources

those who pay 500 per month for their car to be parked (bumper-carred) by an attendant somewhere deep in a garage, will no doubt pay more if they need attendant to plug in a charger for them.

and the city certainly wont be installing outlets on the curbs any time soon

i own a garage so i might be able to hack it, but i often prefer to park in front of my house

i wont buy another non-electric car--tho my 2 2019 foresters will last a while--look like shit already given the mean streets of the big city

god i love new york!!!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
The prediction most experts are making for car sales includes a big dip while people keep their ICE cars while waiting for the ideal electric for them. For a ridiculous number of people, that's the model Y. I just hope the liftover height isn't what they showed on the car during the reveal. A hatchback/crossover SUV with a high liftover is just crap design. I'll probably get rid of my truck and get a model Y if it pencils out. If I time everything reasonably I can get a ridiculous hooligan Y for not too much more than I can sell my truck for--unless the diesel truck market craters. It shouldn't. If you can't smoke all four tires down to the hub then it's just not enough torque.

Diane turned down a cheap Ludicrous mode on her new S in favor of long-range, and her car is just stupid quick. I've been racing shit all my life and I've never been in anything so quick. It feels like my skeleton is being extruded out my back.

New York City and the surrounding area has a nutty number of superchargers. They're probably pretty plugged up with dickhead New Yorkers leaving their car on the charger while they go get lunch. Altruism is thin on the ground in that overcrowded rat cage--or anywhere where parking is more than a few bucks a day. If the superchargers are completely impossible to access you might look at a model S prior to Sept 2018, eastie. Free supercharging for life. I've given serious consideration to butchering a Model S. At $45K for a P85D you can do about anything you want with it. Pull out the back seats, add a roof rack. Surfmobile you can sleep in that you can charge for free.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 05:49:33 PM
Oops, I meant "if the superchargers are NOT completely impossible to access"
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 04, 2019, 07:53:01 PM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS. The e car aficionados will be long gone before that happens. In the mean time I will just enjoy my 2020 Transit 250 AWD eco boost 3.5 with leather,nav,electric cargo door and dual swivel seats.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on September 05, 2019, 08:01:26 AM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS. The e car aficionados will be long gone before that happens. In the mean time I will just enjoy my 2020 Transit 250 AWD eco boost 3.5 with leather,nav,electric cargo door and dual swivel seats.

Tesla's aren't for me either. They're too expensive and.., I don't know. I am as green as it gets, and I'm glad to see Tesla pushing the big car companies in the right direction, but I want my environmentalism accessible by normal folk.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on September 05, 2019, 12:46:40 PM
The economics of electric and hybrid cars are approaching and in certain instances have surpassed ICE vehicles. In Vancouver and perhaps other cities cab companies have switched almost entirely to hybrid vehicles because it makes economic sense, not because of a sense of responsibility to the environment. The cost per kilometre is less primarily because of the large number of kilometres they put on them.

Once the cost of owning and running an ICE vehicle approaches parity with electrics there will be a landslide towards electric cars. Much of that timing will depend on moving the government subsidies from oil companies towards infrastructure for electrics and individual ownership. I along with many other people hope that the time will come sooner rather than later. We are fast approaching another landslide that even technology may not be able to reverse. We live in interesting times.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 05, 2019, 12:59:20 PM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. Heís also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 05, 2019, 01:19:18 PM
...and, while you may not throw a rack on it, you could surely have a fun surf/wind check with the new 800 Volt Taycan.  Maybe not as pretty as the Mission E proto but pretty pretty.

https://newatlas.com/automotive/porsche-taycan-turbo-s/

(https://assets.newatlas.com/dims4/default/bff4f39/2147483647/strip/true/crop/5040x2835+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.newatlas.com%2Fff%2Ff6%2Fa60b207c4fdcb7fdc8ff86febcba%2F4889872-taycan-turbo-s-2019-porsche-ag.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 05, 2019, 01:44:30 PM
If you want to see the near future take a peek at Norway.  While 20 percent of the GDP comes from petro, most of the domestic electicity comes form hydro and they have the highest per capita EV utilization. (More than 60 percent of cars sold in Norway are EV.)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 05, 2019, 02:20:00 PM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS.
As with cell phones, TVs so big you mount them on a wall, home computers, microwave ovens, car stereos, air conditioning, indoor plumbing, electric lights, cars...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 05, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/ (https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/)

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. Heís also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.  And while the Tesla truck styling may scare away people who don't want to call attention to themselves, I can easily see people who currently have something like a Subaru wagon getting something like the Rivian (truck or SUV) for their next vehicle, with the electric aspect being as much of a  positive (eliminates worry of buying a dinosaur) as the non-overcompensating styling.


I also think a lot of people aren't yet comfortable going electric yet, but at the same time feel that buying another gas one is a step backwards.  Some people love being the first with something, but more don't (especially when it's expensive) and electric cars are still rare enough that many people don't have close friends or relatives who have one. A few more electric vehicle options and some better charging could cause a cascade effect, and most everyone knows that, which could increase the cascade.  So many people seem to be just waiting now.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
Actually total cost of ownership of a pure EV is already lower than an internal combustion car in most places. If electricity is super expensive then the advantage declines, but generally places with high electricity cost offer substantially lower off-peak rates and every EV I know of can be set up to charge off-peak. The used EV market greatly favors buyers because the range and features of EV's advance so rapidly. If you don't care about self driving, they're pretty cheap.

The big fear is that the batteries won't last long and will be expensive to replace. That's turned out to be a non-issue. Battery life for well regulated batteries turns out to be much higher than anyone anticipated. Tesla accumulates vast amounts of data about their cars. Turns out that on average Teslas at 160,000 miles have lost less than 10 percent of their range. The original estimates were that they would loose 40% by then, probably because it was assumed they'd be full cycled a lot more than they are. Newer Teslas being routinely charged between 20% discharge to 85% charge lose .3% of capacity per year. If you stay in that range with only occasional full cycle forays it would take 166 years to reach 50% capacity.

Without that concern the entire TCO is initial price, insurance, cost to charge, and trivial maintenance. The gearbox oil gets changed at 75,000 miles.

Pop this to full screen. Weird that it's not quicker, any old 100D will eat it's lunch, including Diane's grocery getter. But it sure is pretty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61XXirmxn4U
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 05, 2019, 04:29:06 PM
Hey there's no turbo in my Turbo...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 12:51:51 AM
Weird that it's not quicker, any old 100D will eat it's lunch, including Diane's grocery getter. But it sure is pretty.

The Taycan Turbo Spec is 0-60 in 2.6 seconds.  The Rivian trucks are doing 0-60 in 3 seconds.  Those are all silly numbers.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 01:05:36 AM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/ (https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/)

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. Heís also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.  And while the Tesla truck styling may scare away people who don't want to call attention to themselves, I can easily see people who currently have something like a Subaru wagon getting something like the Rivian (truck or SUV) for their next vehicle, with the electric aspect being as much of a  positive (eliminates worry of buying a dinosaur) as the non-overcompensating styling.


I also think a lot of people aren't yet comfortable going electric yet, but at the same time feel that buying another gas one is a step backwards.  Some people love being the first with something, but more don't (especially when it's expensive) and electric cars are still rare enough that many people don't have close friends or relatives who have one. A few more electric vehicle options and some better charging could cause a cascade effect, and most everyone knows that, which could increase the cascade.  So many people seem to be just waiting now.

It is great that these guys will be first to market with a truck because the specs are off the chart and they are setting a really high bar for Tesla and others to follow. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 03:22:28 AM
regards the Rivian, it must be nice to pay $70G for a base model truck without blinking an eye.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 04:05:12 AM
regards the Rivian, it must be nice to pay $70G for a base model truck without blinking an eye.

They are saying $62,500 (if you went with the base level) with the tax credit and if you factor in annual savings for fuel and maintenance you are pretty comparable to a ICE truck that will tow 11,000 lbs.  But then consider the spec of the vehicle.  You are getting way more for your money.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 05:51:05 AM
my 2013 Ridgeline cost about $30G. yeah, it won't tow 11G, but then again, i don't tow anything and think most that own pickups don't either. i'm not saying the Rivian isn't a cool truck...i think it's awesome. But if you tend to take very longs trips (like i do a few times a year), the Rivian won't cut it. And if you want that 400 mile capability, you'll pay a lot more than 62K.  And regards the cost savings, as an engineer friend of mine told me: you don't buy an electric vehicle because it's overall cheaper (because it isn't), you buy it because it's electric. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 06, 2019, 06:08:25 AM
For me the ultimate is just not having to drive. I like Zero to 150 to Zero "You have arrived at your destination".
Remember these early electric vehicles?
 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 06:41:21 AM
Your engineer friend has never driven one--if he had, he'd never say something so silly. Most of the people I know who have a Tesla bought it because they drove one, usually one belonging to a friend. Diane and I weren't even considering them until we drove a friend's tatty 2012 model S. By every measure, it's the best car I've ever driven, and I've owned and driven a lot of great cars. There's a reason why it's been Motor Trend's Car Of The Year every year since 2012--that has to make the companies that spent millions advertising with them insane. Tesla doesn't advertise. The more objective you are about buying a car, the more likely you are to wind up with a Tesla Model S or 3 (or maybe an X, though I think they suck toads). Being electric and considering the environment doesn't even need to enter the decision-making process.

Rivian is going to have a tough go because they lack the infrastructure of high-speed chargers that Tesla has. While it's true that more than 99.6 percent of trips driven in the USA in private vehicles are less than two hundred miles round trip, there is still the perception that a vehicle that can't accommodate every potential use is undesirable. I know that firsthand--its why I bought my stupid giant F350. I'd say 99.99 percent of my use of that truck could be accommodated better with an econobox.

If I don't fall in love with the Tesla Pickup or Model Y I think next spring I'll ditch the F350 and buy a used Model S, put racks on it and rip the back seats out. It will be perfect. Park it on the street, charge it at my shop. I want to do a massive PV system at the shop anyway. Even with the cheap Northwest electricity, the payback on solar for my use will be 7 years. People will go insane at the way I'm abusing a beautiful car, but it will be a straight-across deal financially, and I'll never fill that 48-gallon tank or darken the door at SpeedyLube again. Definitely needs to be 4WD, might need to jack it up.

Wow, thanks for the inspiration, beached, I just realized the time to sell my F350 is this autumn before we head for Maui.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 09:42:13 AM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.

I know the feeling, I was monumentally pissed to buy a new Diesel truck, but I was stuck. As much as I love racing cars, I'm kind of tickled that I don't need a truck anymore to haul mine--even though this is the very best diesel truck I've ever owned or ridden in. Really amazing. But what I'd really like is the concept version of the Honda Element (The one that you could wash the interior out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower) but I want it as a 4WD electric with a 200 mile range.

Gregg Leion (covesurfer) is screaming "yes!"
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 02:24:44 PM
I just finished reading an interesting report from BNP Paribas (one of the world's largest banks) on the economics of oil vs. renewables. Very strange and interesting. https://docfinder.bnpparibas-am.com/api/files/1094E5B9-2FAA-47A3-805D-EF65EAD09A7F It introduces a concept I've never seen expressed in exactly this way before, but I've suspected was so (Hmmm, that doesn't make a lot of sense). Anyway, the concept is Energy Return On Capital Invested. In this report it's specifically targeted at renewables plus EVs, meaning how much energy at the wheels do we get for $100BN invested. The conclusion of the report is pretty much stated in the one-page introduction, but the rest of the report (40 pages) is interesting calculations if you like numbers and economic data.

Bottom line is that oil has a huge advantage in size and flow rate but can't compete with renewables/EVs over even a relatively short timeframe. For ICEs and oil to deliver the same mobility over the next 25 years the companies/countries would have to spend 6.2 to 7 time more than if they invested in renewables and ICEs. 25 years doesn't seem all that short term to me since I'll likely be dead before then, but that's a staggering difference, and it doesn't consider environmental costs at all.

I'd expect this study to be lambasted from every corner, anyone that talks about replacing 40% of global fuel demand in short order is going to attract some attention. That 40 percent is worth 3.2 billion dollars a DAY. The cheery folks who benefit from that cash trickle have started major wars to protect their interests. Slinging a little FUD is the least of it.


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 06, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.

I know the feeling, I was monumentally pissed to buy a new Diesel truck, but I was stuck. As much as I love racing cars, I'm kind of tickled that I don't need a truck anymore to haul mine--even though this is the very best diesel truck I've ever owned or ridden in. Really amazing. But what I'd really like is the concept version of the Honda Element (The one that you could wash the interior out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower) but I want it as a 4WD electric with a 200 mile range.

Gregg Leion (covesurfer) is screaming "yes!"
I don't clean mine out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower, but I do clean it out with a leaf blower.  It works great with the huge openings the suicide doors allow.  I actually got the idea to use a leaf blower instead of a vacuum from Caddyshack.


I just looked up Honda Element concept and found an article about the Element coming out again, but as a hybrid.  It also mentions some other changes (smaller interior, lower clearance) that could move it away from the original Element's utilitarian dream car status.


https://suvbible.com/honda/2020-honda-element/ (https://suvbible.com/honda/2020-honda-element/)
(https://i1.wp.com/suvbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2020-Honda-Element-release-date.jpeg?w=640&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 06, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
looks nice by me....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 06:15:05 PM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 06, 2019, 07:11:34 PM
Pono.... So weíre taking your Tesla Rat Rod on a SUP trip to San Carlos? Pretty sure they have a charging station at the fish camp....Really... have you and your techie friends ever been anywhere besides Maui. You are just full of bull shit....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on September 06, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.
This is an interesting discussion (and long, about an hour) with two engineers who dismantled a Tesla 3 and are are ready and waiting  to dismantle a Y. Their conclusions were interesting. The body was over done, could have been much simpler. After that as far as the rest of the car, no other company is coming close. https://insideevs.com/news/365847/video-munro-tesla-model-y-ev-competition/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 06, 2019, 08:52:42 PM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
They (the old ones, don't know about the future ones) come close to waterproof.  The interior is unbelievably spacious.  You can fold the two rear seats down flat in about two seconds each, or up against the side walls in about 10 seconds each, or in 30 seconds each you can pop them out of the car entirely.  You can fit 10' long pipes or posts inside diagonally, or a couple bikes upright, because the interior is so high.  Suicide doors make it easy to load bulky things.  Carries some things easily that would have been a struggle in my old Suburban.  Headroom and legroom are great. 


One article I read about them (or actually about a Toyota concept SUV that writer said hadn't learned from Honda's mistakes with the Element) described how the Element has a cult following, and was perfect in many ways, but never sold well.  The author's theory was that Honda marketed the Element to young adventurers, but those never bought them (one reason being young people don't buy a lot of new cars, and many don't go outside (except maybe the types who drive trucks or Jeeps?).  The people who bought them were older, often women, often dog or bicycle owners, often creative types like photographers--people who appreciated their boxy, rugged roominess and accessibility.  But Honda never marketed to those people, so people just didn't find out the Element might have been perfect for them except by chance or word of mouth.  It seemed to make some sense.

I was excited to see the new one coming out, and that it looks so similar to the old.  Would have been nice to have an electric option, but then again mine is still going like new at 150k miles so I'm not shopping yet.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 07, 2019, 04:10:56 AM
jeeze rider, you cant just be nice..................

you make think youre rich happy smart and great---try being nice---youll be so much more........
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on September 07, 2019, 04:57:14 AM
The world is full of people who canít follow the data and think the status quo is forever. Ask me about all my friends who spent hours arguing how weíd never bank online or that people wouldnít buy shoes online. Hell, I love folks like that. They let me make money on things that they and the rest of the world ignore until itís too late.

Iím a techie and while my family in Texas drive all over hellís half acre every weekend, I know that I donít drive more than 4 hours at a time ever. I also know that when I need to rentals are cheap. Everyone else like me will figure this out too soon.

Finally, if any of you are watching the life you get out of an electric car it starts to make sense. Two $30k trucks or one Rivan or Tesla?

But I know that most folks wonít do the math. And those that do will keep using the advantage. The bummer is that that builds resentment instead of respect, or admiration, or God forbid, emulation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 07, 2019, 06:14:40 AM
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.

Rivian did something that seems like it should have been obvious to anyone approaching the EV market as a new company.  They looked at the vehicle categories that Americans actually buy and went after those first (Trucks and SUV's).  Then they went about designing a platform (their skateboard below) that can be used on almost all vehicles in these categories.   The skateboard is their product.  Ford is already on board for $500 Million, Amazon for $700 Million, and Rivian has made it clear that they have no exclusive agreements.  They are open to sell this platform tech to multiple groups and use it themselves.  Beach's comment about price point is valid.  I see the original Rivian branded offerings as "this is what is possible".  Basically a wish list of truck and SUV features.  It will offer an unprecedented option to people that are comfortable in that price range but more importantly,  it opens the door for other builders to come in and design every possible flavor and certainly lower price points.  In my mind that is a very smart way to approach the market.  Tesla has a very Apple approach.  These are our 4 products, they come in these colors which would you like?  Rivian is going another way.  It is interesting to watch. 

PS: the middle picture is a rendering based on a Rivian patent for a modular rear end.  It is hypothetical but cool and entirely doable should they choose.

(https://ecomento.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Rivian-Elektroauto-R1T.jpg)

(https://s3-prod.autoweek.com/s3fs-public/rivian-selection.jpg)

(https://rivian.com/static/Skateboard-Animation_Powertrain_r2_0000-f4a0439b906337844d9178cf3bec5b19.png)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: bbqSUPer on September 07, 2019, 06:31:30 AM
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 07, 2019, 09:24:26 AM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
They (the old ones, don't know about the future ones) come close to waterproof.  The interior is unbelievably spacious.  You can fold the two rear seats down flat in about two seconds each, or up against the side walls in about 10 seconds each, or in 30 seconds each you can pop them out of the car entirely.  You can fit 10' long pipes or posts inside diagonally, or a couple bikes upright, because the interior is so high.  Suicide doors make it easy to load bulky things.  Carries some things easily that would have been a struggle in my old Suburban.  Headroom and legroom are great. 


One article I read about them (or actually about a Toyota concept SUV that writer said hadn't learned from Honda's mistakes with the Element) described how the Element has a cult following, and was perfect in many ways, but never sold well.  The author's theory was that Honda marketed the Element to young adventurers, but those never bought them (one reason being young people don't buy a lot of new cars, and many don't go outside (except maybe the types who drive trucks or Jeeps?).  The people who bought them were older, often women, often dog or bicycle owners, often creative types like photographers--people who appreciated their boxy, rugged roominess and accessibility.  But Honda never marketed to those people, so people just didn't find out the Element might have been perfect for them except by chance or word of mouth.  It seemed to make some sense.

I was excited to see the new one coming out, and that it looks so similar to the old.  Would have been nice to have an electric option, but then again mine is still going like new at 150k miles so I'm not shopping yet.
I have 140K on mine and it's still like new. My roof rack started to rattle the other day, so I tightened it down. Aside from tires and brakes, that's the only repair I've ever needed to do. It's the best car for a tall person. I have about 4" of head clearance in mine. My head touches the headliner in my F250. Toyota anything, I'm tilting the seat back and my forehead is against the headliner. Haven't sat in a Tesla, but I would bet I'd have to tilt the seat back to sit in it. In my 20's I bought a BMW. First thing I did was take it to a body shop and have them cut the seat track and weld it to the floor. My head still just touched the headliner. I hated that car. Sold it after about 9 months. 61' convertible bug with a dual ported 1600 was one of my favorite cars I ever owned. Used to tie my windsurfing gear down to the convertible top locking hooks at the top of the windshield. Windsurf all day in San Pedro and cruise down the coast in the evening with the under-seat heater valve just cracked open. Perfect. 
Fun thing about trends, they're so obvious. I was on the freeway the other day and I passed two car hauler semi's. Both of them were loaded with the exact same truck. Toyota Tacoma's, 4wd, crew cabs, in that new flat grey color 8) Two guys I surf with at SanO and my Nephew have the exact same truck... same color ::)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 08, 2019, 07:33:27 AM
The article below talks about the potential unveiling of Tesla's upcoming truck.  They also mention and un(der)sung attribute of on site charging.  I thought it was cool that Rivian plans to include 3 outlets in their truck bed and a compressor.  That means that I will be able to inflate a wing in .01 second and beat Bill to the water (or more likely I will explode some perfectly good wings). 

Weíve long thought that pickup trucks are prime for electrification.  There are a lot of advantages to be had in a pickup truck format.  The design already has a large, flat area which would be perfect for batteries, high low-end torque and superior torque control from electric motors would be great for towing and offroading, and the ability to charge tools from the pickupís battery or to charge the truck from job site electricity hookups would both be convenient.

https://electrek.co/2019/09/07/tesla-pickup-will-most-likely-be-unveiled-in-november-says-elon-musk/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 08, 2019, 08:07:05 AM
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.

In the long term, the reliability is superb. Hardly any moving parts. The only lubrication is generally in the gearbox, which is usually just a single reduction gear and the oil gets changed every 75,000 miles.

In the short term, other than the drive system, these are purely computers and software. So no, you can't fix them unless you get really smart on how the systems work, and they can glitch like any complex software. Tesla does automatic over-the-air updates and fixes, so the software issues get fixed quickly, but weird shit happens that you don't have control over except for the smartphone standby--reboot.

I'm a decent mechanic and reasonably experienced with electronics and embedded systems. I've been stuffing my head full of CANBus, OBDII, and alternative network protocols like MQQT to do the wiring for Fritz (my stupid MoHo project). The more I learn, the more I realize that modern vehicles--ICE or EV--are becoming or already are virtually impenetrable to amateur DIY. Just trying to understand the control codes and operation for a single vehicle would be a year-long project, and the manufacturers hold the information closely because the security of these systems suck out loud. Since Tesla has more of a Silicon Valley nature than a rust belt car manufacturer their approach to security is a lot more robust, which makes repairing or modifying any of the devices really difficult.

For example, these are the communications that take place to clear fault codes in the ABS ECU of some ford vehicles:
IDH: 07, IDL: 60, Len: 08, Data: 03 14 FF 00 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 7F 14 78 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 54 FF 00 00 00 00 00

ID0760 is the ABS ECU that the diagnostic tool is talking to. ID0768 is the response sent to the diagnostic tool reading the codes and resetting the stored fault. Each ECU has hundreds and sometimes thousands of communication codes it responds to. There are typically 70+ ECUs in a modern car, each with its own computer talking to all the other computers, using codes specific to the car and manufacturer. ICE's generally have a lot more ECUs than EVs because they have a lot more systems to control. EVs generally have a lot more powerful ECUs that do a lot more sophisticated stuff. Every Tesla since 2016, for example, has two redundant main computers powerful enough to process all the data from all the cameras, radar, sonar, and other navigation sensors simultaneously.

That's undoubtedly more than you wanted to know. I'm basically writing this stuff for myself because it helps me lock down things that are just floating around in my pointy head. By the way, your 2006 has plenty of stuff going on in it's slightly less sophisticated control systems that you have little hope of understanding.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2019, 12:35:12 AM
Most folks canít wrench on the most important tech they own, their phone, yet they rely on it for their work and all other aspects of their lives. They also mostly just work.

When you can control the hardware and software things can be far more reliable.

We had to learn to wrench because the machines broke so much. In a few years thatís another thing that will be gone too.

How many folks do you know who can fix their phone at hardware level? Better yet, how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system? Even less. Itís all changing.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 09, 2019, 05:03:27 AM
how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system?

That is a real issue.  So much business software is now cloud based and closed/proprietary that not only can users not fix it, they cannot alter it and can lose the ability to even access it in times of interruption.  I am not sure that many people even realize how important AWS, Azure, Google Cloud have become to their way of life or their livelihoods. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2019, 06:39:25 AM
Not only can't end users fix their phone,  I couldn't get my service provider to fix a small bug that prevented me from receiving pictures with texts.  I had to turn off wifi and reboot to get them.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2019, 07:00:02 AM
Even if you know how to fix a lot of stuff, the deeper layers are tough to get to. It's actually been true for a very long time--centuries, actually. Every technically complex tool we use is built layer on layer. Who writes the microcode that the assembly layer sits on? Most programming effort is at a very high level of abstraction. The overwhelming majority of people couldn't fix a hammer, don't know how a zipper works and how to fix it, never mind how to make the teeth, clamp them onto fabric, make and add the slider, etc, etc.

I have a book called "Build your own machine shop" that details how to start with a stack of firebricks and sandcast your own stuff, then build a lathe and use that to build a milling machine. Great book, I read it for fun but I saved it in case I went completely nuts in my retirement and wanted to do something completely quixotic.

I might be there, my motorhome project is pretty nutty. And my reason for using MQQT instead of the cloud and building my own stuff instead of readily available automation products is to avoid being cloud-connected--the easiest way to do the project. Of course, I can connect MQQT to the cloud and be able to turn on the air conditioner in my Moho from my smartphone in Maui.

If you want to see what is actually feasible in the world, and how it works, look at the new Chinese Tesla gigafactory. It was a mudhole last year. It's nearly done and ready to make cars and batteries. Freaky.

I do fix my own phones and computers--sort of. That is, I can take them apart, buy components, and replace them. The iPad Diane dropped is at my shop with it's LCD screen and touch glass ripped off, waiting for delivery of the replacement. I have several microscopes and SMD rework stations so I can do micro soldering. It's probably less a matter of practicality than stubbornness. Plus I'm really hard on gear so I better be able to fix it. Or maybe I'm careless with it because I know I can fix it.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 13, 2019, 09:06:38 AM
Iím coming around...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2019, 09:11:45 AM
Drive one, preferably a model S, though the Model 3 is remarkable. Model X is just weird.

It's an eye-opener.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 13, 2019, 01:05:39 PM
Yep I've tipped over. Some milestones:
Jay Leno of all people stating there’s no reason not to have full electric.
My averaging $506 monthly on gas alone.
This thread… including mention of the apparently excellent build quality of Teslas.
An article extolling the driving experience of the Tesla 3 over the BMW 3. (grain of salt, but whatevs)

I do have an office mate with a Tesla S that I will drive. Interesting about her, her husband is a car guy who had been waiting for a special order BMW M2.  It arrived. She drove it to work one day, but much prefers her self driving Tesla over the Bimmer because the latter “requires so much attention be paid while driving”  : )  or maybe : (   … not sure which…. But it does illustrate one kind of consumer preference.   

But more fundamentally I’ve stopped even idly daydreaming about ICE cars… meaning no more “Oh I wonder what the Jag SUV handles like…” , instead, its “oh that’s right… it’s still gas…”
I saw a Shell gasoline TV commercial last night and just saw an anachronism.   Now I’m  just waiting I suppose, for a manly enough EV truck or SUV.  (You now, ‘cuz I’m so manly  : )  with AWD.  Till then I’ll drive my body on frame, V8 SUV Toyota product which probably has an infinite number of miles left in it.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: anonsurfer on September 14, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
Drive one ....

It's an eye-opener.

I'm with PB.  At this time I think Tesla is the best EV option.   Nothing else comes close right now.   

1. 330 miles of range (LR RWD)
2. Super efficient (I avg 4.4 miles per kWh)
3. Low fuel cost ($2.00 per 100 miles)
4. Zero emissions
5. Very quick
6. Access to Supercharger network
7. Over the air updates

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 14, 2019, 04:39:31 PM
I don't think the efficiency issue comes home until you either spend some time with a Tesla or do a little physics. A Tesla 100D long range like Diane's has a 100KW battery. That's roughly equivalent to three gallons of gasoline. Which means if a Tesla was an internal combustion engine car it would be getting 120 miles per gallon carrying five passengers and all their stuff and still be able to out accelerate any supercar.

I still hear that dumb rap about EV batteries polluting more than ICE's and being powered by coal plants. It's too stupid to respond to, pure propaganda that people would have to just gulp down without examining even the most obvious points, never mind researching any aspect.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 25, 2019, 08:16:05 AM
Amazon was pretty clear with its intentions for Rivian but 100,000 delivery trucks?  That is a big order.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/rivian-just-got-a-huuuge-order-for-its-electric-delivery-trucks-ar186626.html

(https://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201909/rivian-just-got-a-hu-1_1600x0w.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 25, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
It's just missing some custom Art Deco trim above the windshield ;)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 25, 2019, 12:20:09 PM
I could fix that for them...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: supdiscobay on September 25, 2019, 10:53:10 PM
So its been one year since I got the model 3.  $57k at that time, and we thought we would only drive it locally and maybe put 10k miles on it.  Well 22k miles later, after one year, and no loss in battery capacity.  You will never have more fun driving a car than this.  (well maybe with a p100d)  A good friend was about to spend $62k on a new 5 series BMW.  It was a beautiful car.  We spent less than an hour driving around in my model 3 and he put in an order for a dual motor performance version, that cost him $78k.  Looking forward to getting in that when it comes.
I save at least $6,000 a year in gas now, and have way more fun driving.  When the Rivian comes out, we are selling our 2016 Chevy Silverado and going 100% electric.  Also just ordered the Tesla solar panels for our roof.  $16,000 after tax credit and break even is 5.5 years out.  Am I crazy? Maybe, but even if the economics of electric vehicles doesn't  work out.  They are just way more fun to drive. 
If you haven't driven one, you are missing out.
I have taken it several times to the Sacramento Drag strip.  With a 95% charge I can run 13.2's all day and dominate the bracket class.  I have a 71 Mustang that runs mid 8 second quarter mile times, but goes on a trailer.  Its fun, but it basically cost the same as the model 3, and the model 3 has a lot more round wins than the Mustang.
The future of Muscle Cars is silent but deadly.  Look at the Rivian Truck, 756 HorsePower.  Depending on the weight, that should propel that truck to 11 second 1/4 mile times. And it can tow 11,000 lbs.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 26, 2019, 06:37:29 PM
Yup, everyone that has a pocket full of oil company propaganda as talking points pretty much shuts up after they drive one--not because they've done enough research to realize how much bullshit they've been swallowing, but for one simple reason--so much fun.

My wife has owned a lot of nice cars, like everyone else I know who has one, she considers her Tesla to be the best car she's ever owned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 29, 2019, 07:51:12 PM
Diane's grocery-getter long-range (335 miles) P100D has 746 horsepower and 743 foot-pounds of torque. That's insane. My Turbo F350 Diesel is weenie by comparison.  When I floor her Tesla with passengers in the car they scream for as long as I hold the pedal down. No smoking tires, not even a squeak, just noisy people in the back.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on September 29, 2019, 11:17:15 PM
This thread has really made me think about my next vehicle. We have a 2009 Mazda 5 and a 2011 Mazda 3. We will probably have the Mazda 3 for a number of years yet, as itís my wifeís car and she doesnít put much mileage on it. We had been thinking of getting rid of the Mazda 5 and were initially thinking about maybe a Mazda 9, or Honda Pilot or maybe a Toyota Highlander. Something along those lines. But this thread, and the information provided and opinions expressed has really opened my eyes. We have decided for right now we are going to keep the Mazda 5 a little longer as it still has some good life left in it. But when the time comes, we are going to take a good, hard look at electrical. I really do like the look of that Rivian SUV. And if there is going to be a swing to electrical cars on any kind of large scale, why put out all that money on an internal combustion engine. Just seems like it makes less and less sense to do so.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 30, 2019, 03:29:19 AM
much as id like some sort of van to just chuck bikes boards gear into, seems best move is to wait

only problem is that older cities with high rates of street parking will remain a challenge long after electric is the obvious approach for most of the country

i usually park my cars in a random street spot--no outlet available
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 30, 2019, 07:23:11 AM
Yes, issues like that will take a longer to solve. With the newest 250KW per hour superchargers you can pick up 50KWH in twelve minutes, that's enough to go 150 miles. But superchargers need to be as convenient as gas stations, which is certainly feasible. The logistics and cost of transporting gasoline to fill storage tanks is much more burdensome than running a wire, but it takes time for infrastructure to change.

It will be interesting to see how the Maxell acquisition plays out for Tesla. The dry Lithium batteries Maxell developed have both higher storage capacity per unit volume but also could more than double recharge rate. DC to DC charging could wind up being limited by wire size.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 30, 2019, 07:31:49 AM
There was some talk a while back about eventually building inductive charging roads.  Now that would be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 15, 2019, 11:20:02 AM
Here's a retrofit option. Crated electric motors, but only works with manual tranny's. May need a center force clutch and some other high performance drive train components.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/10/14/electric-gt-crate-motor-ev-conversions/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 15, 2019, 05:42:28 PM
That's pretty cool. I was planning something similar with my eTR3 before I pulled the plug so to speak. Of course, making a dummy version of a 4 cylinder brit motor is a lot simpler-- an aluminum box with a little deco. I might still do it if I finish everything else. Look for it in 2050.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on October 18, 2019, 03:04:41 PM
Infrastructure bump:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a29501539/ford-charging-network/

“Ford Is Planning a Huge North American Electric Charging Network
Dwarfing Tesla's and any electric vehicle will be able to use it, the company says.”
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on October 18, 2019, 03:39:50 PM
This commitment by Ford is welcomed. I am hoping that an enterprising company will start electrifying existing gas stations and smooth the bumps during the transition to electric. We have placed an order for an eKona by Hyundai. With any luck the delivery will be in the spring of 2020. We will keep our CX5 until I can  convince my better half that I need a Tesla Y.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on October 18, 2019, 04:17:10 PM
^ Bob, man, be reasonable, you need a Tesla pickup truck...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: rbgar on October 18, 2019, 05:21:23 PM
https://images.app.goo.gl/hwzSgnqPSnqtcWaR8

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on October 18, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Perhaps a bit more futuristic!

https://images.app.goo.gl/KKU43JSRYfWQ6NSB7
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on November 04, 2019, 10:47:12 PM
A friend of a friend has a Tesla and loves her car. However, she recently took her car on a cold weather trip and had a very unpleasant experience. I donít know all the details, but my friend told me the battery was losing itsí charge very quickly. Apparently they very nearly didnít make their destination. She said the car handled really well in the snow, but the battery drain was significant.

I did a bit of looking online and found this (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html). It says in 20 degree weather (Farenheit), when using climate control, electric vehicles will lose an average of 41 percent of their range. Apparently Tesla disputes these findings, but from what my friend said, this sounds pretty accurate.

I suppose one could argue that the Tesla owner (my friendsí friend) should have known about this ahead of time, but this sounds like it could possibly be a pretty serious limitation to electric cars, at least in colder climates.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 05, 2019, 03:10:03 AM
it is a fact that batteries dont like cold
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 05, 2019, 07:10:07 AM
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 05, 2019, 07:45:31 AM
well explained---thx
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on November 05, 2019, 07:59:09 AM
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.

Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 07, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
We will get a look at the upcoming Tesla truck soon, assuming he means Nov 21st 2019.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951616/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-reveal
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 08, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
The teaser image resembles a traditional, (long) pick-up truck hood, but I will be highly disappointed if it is not a cab-forward design...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 08, 2019, 09:59:12 AM
Tesla loves frunks. I'd be surprised if it didn't have one. In theory, they sound great, in practice, I've never used it. I don't think Diane has either. A standard model S has so much room in the back that we just never think to use it. There's an "under trunk" in the back that I've also never used. Every so often I lift it up and say "oh, yeah, that's what that is" and then close it and forget about it. Insane amount of cargo space for a five passenger luxury sedan.

I'd preorder the pickup sight unseen with max everything if they'd let me. I know that makes me sound like a fanboy, but it's exactly what I wanted when I paid 60K for my Ford F350. I could avoid my project to make a rat Tesla Model S surfwagon. $40K more (got to be at least $100K for the 500 mile version) to never stop at a gas station again, tow any load I could ever imagine, carry all my shit and blow the doors off Porches? I'm in.

I've been playing with their battery modules from a wrecked 100D for six months now, and it's a constant source of inspiration. My plan for the spring is to buy one or two wrecked Tesla Model S's and a roof full of PV if power-hungry Californians don't drive the price to the stratosphere.  I'd love to use the model 3 packs, but no one has been able to reverse engineer the BMS system yet to build massive powerwall systems. One of the sharpest and most experienced guys in that biz calls the Model 3 BMS system "witchcraft".

Ready for the zombie apocalypse. I've calculated loads at my shop. With the PV system I plan, and even just 100KWH of storage I can run my shop and charge one Tesla Model S or maybe the truck. With 200 KWH of storage and a little more PV I can charge two Teslas, and switch my heating and cooling for the entire shop to heat pumps with lots of room to spare. I might get sensible and do the single powerwall, but what's the fun in that? At current prices, it's about a 20-year payback (I'll be 92 and senile, so I won't be able to appreciate the benefit), and that's with me doing most of the work and building powerwalls for somewhere in the range of $10K each, including car, housing, BMS and inverters. I'll get a lot of other good stuff out of the cars but the market for Tesla bits sucks. Most of them are under some form of warranty and there is so little that goes wrong that there just isn't much of a market. Maybe I'll drop a Tesla motor in the dunebuggy. The powerwalls would be more than $100K each from the sources I know about, but I don't have to make a profit, market and support the things. Big advantage of not caring about making a biz out of it. Living in the Pacific Northwest makes solar and batteries more of a labor of exploration than a rational choice. Almost anywhere else it turns around pretty quickly, in Maui my system paid itself off in 6+ years, though it's grid-tied with no powerwall. But certainly, as a lot of Californians have recently discovered, "God bless the chile what's got his own".

I'm also going to build an inverter TIG welder with one module. 56 pounds, 7.14KWH. I tested it with a simplified two-module rig running DC and I could pull 300 amps at 46 V to weld some 5/8" steel plate and hardly warmed the modules. No surprise, they often pull 1200Amps in the cars at full acceleration but still, there was less than two degrees change on the internal thermocouples. I need AC for aluminum and I want variable frequency, pulsing, adjustable waveform and electrode cleaning/penetration bias, so I'll have to mash it up with a standard TIG inverter. But a 70-pound full-featured 250 amp portable TIG would be a big deal for me. My old 250 amp transformer TIG takes a hefty forklift to lift it.

As I said, lots of inspiration in this tech.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on November 11, 2019, 06:49:03 AM
Has anyone heard anything about this Polestar 2? 
https://www.polestar.com/us/cars/polestar-2
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 08:33:50 AM
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 11, 2019, 08:50:27 AM
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.

Wouldn't it be a tighter comparison to the upcoming model Y with Dual motors?  They are saying $45,000 for a later release base model.

This looks more like a crossover style thing, but It would have been awesome as a wagon. 

It is a handsome vehicle.  In terms of yeeeow appeal, Tesla has been pretty lackluster with the S being the exception.  It will be interesting to see if Musk really does break loose a little on the truck.  I hope so!

(https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Polestar_2_022.jpg?w=1390&crop=1)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 10:41:35 AM
Well, it's face certainly looks happy.

I agree that the 3 is not the coolest looking car ever, and the Y looks like a fat 3. The X is stupid. The two style winners are the S and the Roadster. Right now though, the names of the game are: How many 3's can they sell in China (millions?), when will they build batteries there (very fucking soon) and will they be Maxell dry tech (Yes--a big deal--far more production in less space with no drying ovens), and what kind of preorders do they get from the pickup truck. If the preorder is huge it may stop Ford, and to a lesser degree GM and Dodge truck sales in their tracks.

The geezers on the Autoweek streaming show think the traditional truck buyers won't go for them, it will be new buyers. That means the traditional buyers will be all over these things since these people have been consistently and dependably wrong.

It's going to get weird.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 11:15:15 AM
It's really interesting to me that the average pickup truck in commercial use actually averages less than 15,000 miles per year, or 60 miles per day for 250 working days, but the reliability rates for the trucks is really poor (less than 60 days per unscheduled repair). In general, that's thought to be mostly because of how often the trucks are started and stopped. I think those truck owners would be well served with a short range, high reliability, high torque, high towing capacity truck that they can charge overnight in the shop. I assume most of them can use a four-function calculator. I fail to see why they wouldn't be the target. I think the Autoweek folks think they're yahoos that are wedded to an F150. I'm sure lots of them are, but I'm also sure most of them are business people who understand how expensive their work trucks really are.

The 450-500 mile range of the super long-range version should be of little interest. What will probably be of great interest is a 10KW (or more) inverter built into the thing that can power your Jobsite or even your shop, for a day or a week depending on your battery size with no gas, no noise, no exhaust. I do hate portable generators with a passion though I own several.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 12, 2019, 02:19:14 PM
As much as I want a Tesla Pickup, I do realize that the US car market doesn't really matter. The number of cars and trucks sold per year in the USA has been flat or declining for many years--about 50 years in fact, peaking around 1973 at somewhere around 11.4 million cars. In 2018 passenger car sales hit a new low--about 5.3 million cars, but 17 million cars and light trucks total, so yeah, a Tesla truck and probably a truck-based SUV, will be a big deal.

But the model 3 and Y in China is infinitely more important. 28 million cars were sold in China last year, up from 6 million in 2000--their new car sales is growing three times faster than any other country in the world. Tesla is the only car company in China allowed to operate without surrendering it's IP, the only car company allowed to operate without the Chinese subsidiary 51 percent owned by an existing Chinese company--Tesla owns 100 percent of its Chinese subsidiary. They are in a free-trade zone of Shanghai, so there is a chance China might insist on the 25 percent Tariff (or some lower number) for the cars manufactured there, but my guess is that if there is any tariff, it will be much reduced. China intends to own the electric car industry, and Tesla is how they plan to do it.  Tesla will be able to sell every car it can crank out in China, and every car and truck it can make in the USA. For years.

You might wonder why the Y will be Y. S3XY. Really. Geeks are not known for mature puns.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 15, 2019, 04:27:03 AM
It would be awesome if something like this made it to market.  https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/neuron-evs-t-one-torque-trucks-tesla-2880535/

I am hoping that the Tesla is similar and has some full sized bed options.  0-60 in 3 seconds?  OK, but fully assembled foil boards.  Oh, yeah.

(https://robbreportedit.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/neurontruck02.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 22, 2019, 12:00:48 AM
Maybe...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2019, 01:41:26 AM
I wanted to love it but, yuck.  Kind of like a Delorean and an El Camino had an ugly kid.  If you have a few years (end of 2021?) and want one you can order now https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck.

(https://www.tesla.com/xNVh4yUEc3B9/02_Desktop.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 22, 2019, 03:31:03 AM
why shatter-proof glass?

tempered laminated safety glass seems sufficient
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 22, 2019, 08:38:58 AM
If nothing else, it certainly makes the model x look highly functional by comparison...
On a positive note, it could be just the thing for trophy truck racing.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: exiled on November 22, 2019, 08:42:47 AM
Its like they rendered it on my old Nintendo 64.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 22, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
It is sort of frugly but clearly not designed by a surfer. Where exactly are our boards suppose to go?

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 22, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
I’m curious how the view out is. High belt lines tend to give me a claustrophobic feel... possibly cured here by some version of the sky roof glass.
I wonder if a covered version SUV will follow. Much as I like a good truck, rainy Seattle just means half your vehicle is unusable much of the time.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2019, 07:22:53 PM
I put my order in. I want the three motor version, so I'm not likely to see anything until 2022. Fuck. Oh well. Cold rolled stainless exoskeleton? Perfect.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2019, 11:05:52 PM
After reading a few comments on the truck on Facebook I'm convinced that people just want to cling to the familiar. There is no reason that an electric truck should look like an internal combustion-engined truck. I'm kind of disappointed that it looks as conventional as it does. Why is the nose blunt? That has to be some reach back to conventional styling. There's no engine or radiator in there. No need for a grill. Why is the bed so high? What's under there? There's no driveshaft, no transfer case and transmission. I was hoping for a bed you could walk onto, that could be raised for ground clearance when you want, but down low for loading.

As it is, I think it will be a revolutionary truck, with remarkable capabilities. With it's big battery pack and a 110/220V inverter (more than 10KW from what I've heard) it can literally power a house. The standard Tesla battery is 300V, powering an inverter from the drive battery is highly effective. The trend for whole-home inverters is split phase 220V output with 300+ VDC input. Much smaller conductors, lighter weight and even greater efficiency.

I don't want to wait two years though. I guess I'll still have to build the rat rod model S. If you think the truck is fugly, stay tuned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 23, 2019, 05:04:44 AM
LOL

can it please not look like the f18?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 23, 2019, 07:29:50 AM
I too put a $100.00 refundable deposit on the   Dual Motor one .

Hey Pono, do you really think your build will be complete in less than 2 years?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 23, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 23, 2019, 07:34:41 PM
Obviously Elon and his design team don't surf...... or actually use a truck for what a truck is used for. It's just an SUV.

Where's the rack?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2019, 02:00:17 AM
It is gitchy and nonsensical to base a design on movie vehicles from the 70's and 80's.  Musk had said that his design cues had come from the Lotus Esprit from the Spy Who Loved Me and from Blade Runner but Total Recall and Back to the Future are pretty obvious as well. It would be one thing if he had borrowed a little flavor and improved on it but this takes that already silly starting point and worsens it. 

The specs are great as expected but there is/will be plenty of competition there from all sides. It is baffling why Musk would choose to limit the appeal so much.  The design of this thing clearly puts limits on its function and apparently for the sake of some misguided aesthetic.  I am sure it will appeal to a few but it leaves the majority of that huge segment wide open.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: krash on November 24, 2019, 06:54:31 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

I really like the break-prof windows...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 24, 2019, 11:50:46 AM
The three-section ramp tailgate is awesome, though it looks like it's just a rendering so far. That would take quite a bit of engineering to make it work with any serious load weight. I should make a manual version of those for my F350 though it would probably need to be five sections to not be as steep as a cow's face. I'm more than a bit tired of crawling up onto the tailgate.

Looks like ground clearance can be varied from 10 to 18 inches. Six to 18 would be mo'bettah. I'd love a bed that could be stepped into without a ladder.

Elon doesn't seem to care much about racks. Too bad. The biggest problem with a Model X is no rack possible. A model X with door like a Cienna and metal roof with rack rails would be a fine vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 25, 2019, 12:46:11 PM
Even though its a little homely, I kind of see it as the natural evolution of my car life from the complex to the simple... from american cars I had to work on myself as a kid, to Euro cars for which I had to pay mechanics, to Toyota (but still ICE) products, to now bullet proof, no paint, electric transport with no moving parts... Now, how to reconcile my "not buy new cars' rule.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 25, 2019, 05:34:58 PM
https://youtu.be/464puoD09dM

Go ahead.... hit it with a sledge hammer..

For all the construction workers and surfers that wear designer leather jackets ::)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on November 25, 2019, 10:03:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_QtnMt0X0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_QtnMt0X0)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 26, 2019, 03:53:23 AM
Hah!  This will be the norm for all electric trucks.  Here is Ford's response https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+truck&oq=tesla&aqs=chrome.2.69i60j69i57j0l6.7208j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 .  The real test will be the upcoming 4 motor Rivian (4 in all models) or Electric F-150. Both are expected before the Cybertruck. 

I am all for futuristic but I don't relate to a dystopian or post apocalyptic future where we have somehow lost the capability to curve metal into an appealing form.  Green, 9mm, Mad Max.  Weird blend.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 26, 2019, 08:05:15 AM
"Sledgehammer impact on door cracked base of glass, which is why steel ball didn't bounce off," Musk tweeted

While that makes perfect sense, it also demonstrates that it didn't really pass the sledge test either. 

So the take-away is, don't bring a knife to a gun fight, what you really want is your sledgehammer.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 26, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
It is quite amazing the how the world is shocked that when someone throws a steel ball at a car window, it actually breaks. Yet they're pretty ho-hum about a truck beating a Porsche 911 in a drag race.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 26, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
There is always someone faster...love this clip

https://youtu.be/S7m3xyW5hbE?t=591
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 10:08:42 AM
So here's the thing that may escape casual looks at this truck. It's cheap to build. No frame, no paint, no stamping. It really is Origami. The stamping equipment that makes the pretty curves of normal cars and trucks is eye-wateringly expensive and wears out relatively quickly, requiring rework or replacement to keep making parts that fit. If you tried to stamp stainless of any thickness it would get ridiculously expensive. DeLoreans used thin stainless and minimal stamping and still had huge fit and finish issues from metal hysteresis and die wear. This design is as repeatable as folds in paper. It's made with a score and bend tech from flat panels. If they did it right (and why not) it's a minimum number of parts and a lot fewer fasteners--probably a welded unibody. Unibody construction with regular steel and paint is justifiably despised in the truck world. Bang things around and you knock the protective coatings off and the rust monster attacks. This is 301 stainless. Salt water spray does nothing. fewer fasteners means less potential for galvanic corrosion. If you manage to scratch up the finish you can sand or scotchbrite it back to pretty. My kind of truck.

You also can't make curved windows with armor glass (like the glass on your cellphone). It doesn't bend well because of the high internal stress and if you heat it up enough to bend you relieve some of the stress and weaken the glass. So flat windows. Which are a lot cheaper to make and easier to fit. The design palette suits the function and the materials. It has to look the way it does to be built this way.

The wing sides that make people gag are structural. They dramatically increase the overall rigidity without adding weight. And since the integrated tonneau runs along the top of the wing, will increase the height of what can be carried, covered, and secured.

I got a real kick out of people saying there are no tiedowns. See those stylish lines in the truck bed and sides? They're keyhole slots. The entire bed is one huge tiedown. And yes, you could use them to mount a rack.

My aluminum bodied F350 had less than 500 miles on it when I nudged a plastic trash bin out of my way and put a long dent in the soft aluminum door skin. I could nudge a dumpster out of the way with this thing.

Unibody means lots of room inside--both side to side and headroom. This thing seats six big guys with lots of head clearance and easy access to even the rear middle seat. The front middle seat converts to a huge console. People who got test rides said the interior size seemed like some kind of magic trick.

A few people seem to have figured out that this could be pretty cool. More than 200,000 preorders as of the 24th. Sure, it's only a hundred bucks instead of a thousand, but 200,000 people have said they want one. 200K times 50K is $10 Billion. That's ten percent of the total pickup truck market share. Two days after finally showing a prototype that is universally reviled on social media.

I'd wager if Tesla did a full court press and got this thing out before I turn 75 that even Bubba would buy it once he figured out that it will blow the doors off a Porsche and crawl over logs twice as high as his F150 will. And he'll never, ever have to go to a gas station again--not even to put air in the tires. the onboard compressor will do that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
There is always someone faster...love this clip

https://youtu.be/S7m3xyW5hbE?t=591

That was fun.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 26, 2019, 11:27:51 AM

... or maybe I'll just feed my soul with a '69 Chevelle...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 26, 2019, 06:56:45 PM
compelling

a big culture shock for me is that the thing is a damned big truck, yet itll blow doors off vettes and porsches

that's a lotta vehicle going 60mph in 3 seconds!

i am sure it will have amazing monster brakes--suspension/steering for that matter too

and yes, thou shalt not buy any combustion-powered devices again---if there isnt a superior electric-powered version of whatever you want, wait---there will be shortly

lawn tractors---atv's---dirt bikes---chain saws---cars---trucks--snow blowers

i am down to 2 2019 subaru foresters, so i am good car-wise for a while---and i yearn for more of a van format---but next transport vehicle will certainly be electric

i want to say i dont need something so big--but the problem i have with big is mostly alleviated by the superior efficiency of electric---so "big" is a concept that will adjust

still no facilities for nyc residents, tho im sure there will be chargers in the most expensive garages--for an add'l charge--those garage spaces already price up to >$1000 per month---for the oligarchs!! proles like me cant get no juice
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 26, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
And now back to actual Surf Vehicles. 2020 US release confirmed. I'll get out with a bunch of my friends in wetsuits and hit it with a paddle ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/microbus

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
EV trucks have about a thousand or more horsepower in brakes--before the pads hit the disk. Dynamic braking. When they start using ultracapacitors for dynamic braking all that power will make it's way back into the battery. As it is a fair amount does, but hard sustained braking can exceed the charge rate limits of the battery. Keeping a 14,500-pound trailer under control down the continental divide will mostly charge the battery. No friction brakes involved, unless someone does somthing dramatic in front of you and you need to completely stop.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 27, 2019, 01:50:04 AM
And now back to actual Surf Vehicles. 2020 US release confirmed. I'll get out with a bunch of my friends in wetsuits and hit it with a paddle ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/microbus

2020 would be awesome (link says 2022).  Don't let your friends throw their balls at the windows.

Here is an interesting link about trucks and what production goals and capacity are looking like from various brands.  Regardless of production start dates it looks like most of us on these lists will have long waits after production starts.  The article questions if the demand is there but I don't question that at all.  It seems like there is an abundance of ready and willing buyers just waiting for trucks, real SUV's or minivans to come available.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-electric-trucks/eight-electric-pickup-truck-manufacturers-to-load-up-u-s-market-by-2021-idUSKBN1XZ1W7
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: 1tuberider on November 27, 2019, 05:27:10 AM
I just picked up a new volt for 20k after tax credits. May take a little conversion
for surf vehicle. I also have a bolt. Its a great car but range is limiting. I prefer the
ICE as a backup. Went to Portland last weekend which is something a bolt with 280 mile range would take
a while to do. Not interested in waiting for recharge.

The volt covers my local needs with electricity and my travel needs with fuel. I just gotta
figure a rack system but the rear door opens and my board should fit. I don't care as I live
most the year at the beach.

My experience with electric cars is their value drops faster than your principle reduction of a monthly payment.
This makes for a buying opportunity for a great used electric vehicle. I see used volts for 10K. That should
pay for its self with fuel savings.

I would love the VW van, I had one for many years. I would not love the hole in the wallet and
rapid depreciation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 27, 2019, 06:51:13 AM
I get the sense that this window of opportunity to buy used EV's cheap will be short lived as the observed longevity of EV's climb.   So get 'em while they're hot!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 27, 2019, 08:47:20 AM
The Volt is a great car, we have one in Maui, and the battery will last much longer than any of the critics claim. My plan for this summer is to pick up a used Tesla Model S 100D, something after 2016, which is also a bargain. 2021 or 2 seems like a long time to wait but full production capability for the Truck is going to take quite a while. No one has done production of a vehicle built this way yet, so there's a lot to be learned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 27, 2019, 09:31:43 AM
I don't mind the two year wait for my cyber-truck. I think its going to take me that long to convince my wife I really need a truck that big to replace my 4runner, which she thinks is monster big.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 27, 2019, 07:27:57 PM
The step-in height of the front seats (head clearance) is 75 inches. I'll be able to get in without ducking or folding. One of the best things about a pickmeup truck. No bending. I had to do the limbo to get into Diane's Boxster.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:28:20 AM
I had missed it but Ford just announced their 2020 all electric Mustang Mach-E SUV on the 17th.  They think they can produce 50,000 next year.  0-60 in, yup, a now familiar 3.5 seconds.  Range at 300 miles, options starting at 40 K before tax credit.  Ford claims it will have the largest charging network in the United Statesóeven larger than Tesla. Its network will include 12,000 charging stations with a total of 35,000 stations in the U.S. and some parts of Canada.

Configure here: https://www.ford.com/buy/mach-e/build-and-price.html#/colour?series=ACMRJ_VS-LE&powertrain=DR--F_EN-EJ_HTHAD_TR-WA&paint=PN4HJ

Fantastic looking vehicle but it looks tough to rack so I am not sure that it is an SUV (or a Mustang?).  They have sold out of their First Edition.  Ford is also doing a Full sized SUV branded Lincoln on the Rivian Skateboard chassis.  Things are heating up.

(https://robbreportedit.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/mustang-mach-e-07.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 28, 2019, 10:00:08 AM
Looks like a Model S with a Ford badge on it. One of the serious challenges of building a EV that looks different is aerodynamics--design by wind tunnel. Since they don't need to reject 70 percent of the power generated as heat an EV can have a truly aero-efficient nose. And they need to. That's the dumbass thing about the Rivian truck--it has a standard truck look with a hood area to hold the engine they don't have and a nose with the aero of a garage door to house the radiator it doesn't have. A Tesla Model S long range can do 370 miles from a 100KWH battery. That's the energy equivalent of 2.7 gallons of gasoline. You don't do 137 MPG pushing a garage door down the highway even at 55mph.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 10:34:57 AM
It is those 911 side windows.  That basic shape has been pirated all around.  This new Ford has a lot of 911 in it.  Maybe more than the Taycan. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 28, 2019, 11:56:33 AM
Where is the there any "Mustang" in the SUV. Ford can only sell two vehicles, 150 trucks and Mustangs.  They can't call their new SUV a 150, so they are calling it Mustang.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:20:01 PM
Ford can only sell two vehicles, 150 trucks and Mustangs.

Check this out: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/usa/2018-full-year-usa-ford-sales-americas-favorite-car-brand/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 28, 2019, 02:30:10 PM
interesting, Mustang dropped 43% this year.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:48:33 PM
That's the dumbass thing about the Rivian truck--it has a standard truck look with a hood area to hold the engine they don't have and a nose with the aero of a garage door to house the radiator it doesn't have. A Tesla Model S long range can do 370 miles from a 100KWH battery. That's the energy equivalent of 2.7 gallons of gasoline. You don't do 137 MPG pushing a garage door down the highway even at 55mph.

That is a big part of what Musk missed.  It seems like he isn't a truck guy :).  Rivian designed their Truck with their user in mind.  They have a super cool and modular (included) rack system that mounts tool free to the roof, the rails and the bed.  Reposition, extend or add to it.  That is normal use for trucks.  Bolt big racks to them and load them up.  The racks stay on.  That isn't aerodynamically ideal but it is reality for this vehicle type.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 29, 2019, 04:08:48 AM
interesting, Mustang dropped 43% this year.

That is for the quarter.  The year for Mustangs was down but by 7%.  This is pretty interesting because all Ford "Cars" were down 17%.  It is telling because of the 2.4 Million vehicles Ford sold only 457,000 were cars and of those only 76,000 were mustangs.  Ford sells almost twice as many SUV's as cars and almost 3 times as many Trucks (1,140,000/yr) and both of those categories are growing.  So they are really trying to keep the Mustang name alive with this move.  People have responded very well to the vehicle but not so much to the branding.  It is a little weird.

Here is an interesting poll about the Mach E vs the Tesla Y https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidundercoffler/2019/11/22/consumers-split-on-tesla-model-y-vs-ford-mach-e/#22dde3987dd8

We surveyed just over 1,000 people, and the results were essentially a draw: 51 percent of respondents said they would choose the Mustang Mach-E, 49 percent said they would choose the Model Y.

We then asked people to choose three reasons why they chose the vehicle that they did.

Those who preferred the Ford cited the following reasons:

Prefer/trust Ford more
The Mach-Eís exterior styling
Fordís established dealer and service network
The Mach-Eís expected reliability
Concerns about Teslaís future

Itís interesting that on this list is Fordís dealer and service network ó a key advantage legacy automakers have over Tesla, which is currently struggling with long delays for parts and service at their service centers nationwide. Ford says it has certified more than 2,100 of its dealers to sell and service the Mach-E.

Those respondents who said theyíd choose the Tesla Model Y cited the following reasons for doing so:

Prefer/trust Tesla more
Expected reliability
The Model Yís expected performance
Teslaís Supercharging network
Dislike of the Ford brand

Key among consumersí reasons for choosing the Model Y is Teslaís Supercharging network. While Ford has stitched together its own network of charging stations from a variety of existing services, itís still not as robust as Teslaís setup.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: RideTheGlide on November 29, 2019, 04:23:51 AM
Is there no interoperabillity of charging stations in the networks? When parking lots put in charging stations, isn't it just one kind for all? I don't have to look for an in network station for Hyundai s to fill my car with gas. I know the deal about it being free for some Teslas and get they they need to go to a Tesla charging station for that, but it seems like any electric should be able to pay at different stations. Or maybe that is an ideal not currently being achieved.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2019, 06:47:46 PM
The underlying problem is that the installed base of chargers (other than Tesla Superchargers) are very slow chargers. It's easy to put in a low power charger, most people who have an EV have one in their garage. 220V @ 30 amps = 6600 watts is fine for overnight, not fine for topping off during a trip. A full charge for a 100KWH battery is 15 hours. Even people with a 100KWH Tesla generally only charge to 85 percent and probably discharge to 20 percent, so the time to charge is more like nione hours, but still...

Ford's cobbled together network is basically slow chargers. You won't use them for distance travel.

Teslas superchargers are 480VDC chargers that directly connect to the cars 400V battery and the charge at rates from 72‒250 kW depending on when the charger was installed or upgraded and some limitations on older cars. A full charge is less than half hour on the new ones, the more likely 20 percent to 85 percent is about 12 minutes.

Other carmakers have a lot of catching up to do. Currently available competing cars have less range than a 2012 Model S. Still, Musk always said his intent was to spur the adoption of EVs. I think that's working.

You can still watch the fossils on Autoweek proclaiming that no one will ever make money building electric cars. It's kind of funny.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: exiled on November 29, 2019, 08:36:42 PM
If I only need about 100 miles of daily range tops, 50 on average, what is my best cheap option right now? 70k isn't in the cards any time soon.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2019, 11:24:31 PM
Take a look at used Teslas--I plan to buy one myself in the spring. Even a 2012 still has lots of life in the battery, but the best value with most features are 2016 and newer. The older Teslas depreciate like iPhones. You can get a car that cost $120K new with low mileage and great condition for about $45K, and if you don't care about the autodrive you can get one down to about $30K. A lot of car for the money and anything prior to 2017 has free supercharging for the life of the car. I doubt they'll depreciate much more than that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 30, 2019, 03:15:56 AM
Is there no interoperabillity of charging stations in the networks? When parking lots put in charging stations, isn't it just one kind for all? I don't have to look for an in network station for Hyundai s to fill my car with gas. I know the deal about it being free for some Teslas and get they they need to go to a Tesla charging station for that, but it seems like any electric should be able to pay at different stations. Or maybe that is an ideal not currently being achieved.

Snipped from the article below:  Vehicles from other automakers will also be able to use the stations in Ford's network, unlike in the Supercharger network, which is available only to Tesla customers.

Here are the specifics of what Ford is calling their FordPass charging network.  https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-fordpass-charging-network-tesla-supercharger-electric-car-charging-2019-10 . 


Ford announced on Thursday it is giving electric-vehicle customers two years of free access to over 12,000 charging stations in North America with over 35,000 plugs.

The FordPass Charging Network will also include DC fast-charging stations from Electrify America that will allow for a vehicle to charge from 10% to 80% in 45 minutes. Ford did not specify the number of plugs in the network that will have fast-charging capability.  Here is the current map of stations from Electrify America:  https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpqfs0PyR5gIVMhh9Ch239gjxEAAYASABEgKjyfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Through the FordPass Charging Network, Ford's electric-vehicle customers will for two years have free access to more charging stations than are included in Tesla's Supercharger network (which has 1,636 stations and 14,497 plugs in North America).


Here is an article on the self-chargers that Ford is includig with all Mach E's (and we could probably assume the upcoming trucks as well) https://electrek.co/2019/11/18/ford-mustang-mach-e-home-charging-on-par-with-tesla/ . Ford came to play.

Last month we reviewed the portable charging cords OEMs provide with their North American electric vehicles, and the results were wild.  We gave Teslaís Gen2 UMC an A+, Audi an A, Nissan a B, Hyundai a D, GM a D-, BMW an F, and Jaguar an F-. Now we have our first look and some exclusive details about what Ford is calling simply the ďFord Mobile ChargerĒ. Based on what we know so far, we can confidently predict an A rating, but probably an A+, and we may have to level down all the other OEMs besides Tesla. And Ford is including a couple of extras that Tesla doesnít.



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 09:31:47 AM
Clever move on Ford's part. They don't have to spend $100K-250K per charging station to seem like they have a competing charging network. The lower capacity charging stations have always been available to any EV, including Tesla. Level 1 (low power AC) Charging adapters are standard NEMA J1772. The native Tesla adapter is different but Teslas come with an adapter so they can use any AC charger. They also have an AC charger that comes with the car that can be plugged into any 110v (pitifully slow) or 220v outlet (more useful).

There are two standards for fast DC charging--CCS (250 kW) and CHAdeMO (50 kW). Teslas are not directly compatible with either of them. There are adapters available, but it's not just a matter of switching pins, the charger needs to communicate with the battery. EU Teslas have had functioning CCS adapters for some time, but the EU CCS communication is not compatible with Canadian and US CCS. Model 3s in Europe come with CCS native connectors and the superchargers in EU are being refitted to take either native Tesla or CCS connectors.

There are CCS and CHAdeMO adapters either available or in the works but the standards keep changing as the charge rates keep increasing. That's a good thing for the long term and theoretically a PITA for the short term. Theoretically because most Tesla owners use Superchargers and destination chargers (the kind of chargers Tesla sells to hotels and parking lots) for travel anyway. The overwhelming majority of chargers in the Electrify America network are Level 1 (slow) like the ones you find in every large parking lot or big box store. Useful, but not fast charge. They're the equivalent of a gas can--not there to fill up your tank, but they can get you to where you need to be. Electrify America is a serious player though, and a very welcome addition to the EV changeover. Now if Tesla and EA can stop pissing on each other's shoes things will get a lot more handy. Right now the number of fast chargers they have is trivial, but I suspect Ford and other automakers will be happy to support them if that means Tesla's big lead gets whittled.

The Ford announcement is 90 percent air, but by the time their EV's are available, it might not be.

If that sounds like a pissing match, that's because it is.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: fly2surf on November 30, 2019, 09:42:51 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

Did you get a test drive?  How was it?

Their website is a bit lacking in details.  It says air suspension but thatís it.  Just wondering if it is independent suspension or solid axle(s).   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Independent, like all Teslas. There's no real way to even make a solid axle unless you have a driveshaft.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 30, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
understand it's slow--but what is the time to charge with 110v?

just learned it is in fact 4+ days! 4 miles of drive range per hour at 110v

not relevant to the discussion

220v charges in 10 hrs



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 30, 2019, 01:52:09 PM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

Did you get a test drive?  How was it?

Their website is a bit lacking in details.  It says air suspension but thatís it.  Just wondering if it is independent suspension or solid axle(s).

No Fly

no test drive the truck was in for "repairs".....but seriously likely no one will get a test drive until 2021.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 30, 2019, 03:23:20 PM
Here is a very impressive and detailed editorial on the Cybertruck. It is written by the co-founder of Tesloop. Tesloop use to run shuttles from LA to Las Vegas, LA to San Diego, and point to point within LA county. Now they rent one Teslas for the same market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Nice article. I more or less agree with all of it. The degree of utility built into this thing is hard to comprehend, especially hard when you're just looking at the strange shape. Score and fold is the silver bullet for building a unibody from stainless steel, and stainless steel is the silver bullet for unibodies. You can just look at this thing and see that it's much cheaper, faster, and more space-efficient to build than any stamped and painted, compound curved, body-on-frame truck.

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78454976_10156978619953668_4651439814812368896_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=G9ytLNKIS7IAQnicaU2YSxZymqEG5LE0gCkuut0hWrlKuzUWs4Q4vT9tg&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=816552f8a349236c0b3e3f78750857cc&oe=5E832E3F)
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfercook on November 30, 2019, 07:35:22 PM
Wow! You guys are super dialed and stoked on the Teslas. I saw the Cyber truck on the news the other day and just stumbled on this same article you posted, Tom.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/

750,000 miles and maybe even 1,000,000! Incredible vehicle and as someone who first thought the Honda Element was the worst looking vehicle ever and ended up buying one, I almost instantly though the same of the Cybertruck. After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 09:22:56 PM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 09:51:15 PM
Not so Cyber  8)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 10:01:34 PM
Or this....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 01, 2019, 02:27:36 AM
Here is a very impressive and detailed editorial on the Cybertruck. It is written by the co-founder of Tesloop. Tesloop use to run shuttles from LA to Las Vegas, LA to San Diego, and point to point within LA county. Now they rent one Teslas for the same market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/

The author makes a reasonably good case for all electric vehicles but none of it is limited to Tesla.  That is, except for the parts where he is just being silly ("Chameleon" section).  By the time this vehicle is available it will have competition from all sides.  Buyers will have ample options for capacity, range and style.  You already see corporate buyers lining up in other camps.  They are going to be looking for options that best suit their specific needs and that is not going to be a single vehicle scenario.  Fleet buyers will also be looking at reliability.  This is an area where Tesla has not fared well.

This is Consumer Reports brand reliability list:

How brands fared and their average reliability score:

1. Lexus  78

2. Toyota 76

3. Mazda 69

4. Subaru 65

5. Kia 61 (tie)

6. Infiniti 61 (tie)

7. Audi 60

8. BMW  58

9. Mini  57 (tie)

10. Hyundai  57 (tie)

11. Porsche  54

12. Genesis  52

13. Acura  51 (tie)

14. Nissan  51 (tie)

15. Honda  50

16. Volkswagen 47 (tie)

17. Mercedes-Benz 47 (tie)

18. Ford 45

19. Buick 44

20. Lincoln 43

21. Dodge 40 (tie)

22. Jeep 40  (tie)

23. Chevrolet 39

24. Chrysler 38

25. GMC 37

26. Ram 34

27, Tesla 32 (tie)

28, Cadillac 32  (tie)

29. Volvo 22
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 01, 2019, 03:13:28 AM
It is interesting that the first electric truck is actually already for sale and on the roads.  Sadly, not here.  This little $19,000 stunner was released in July 2019 in China and Asia.  Bolt a lumber/ladder rack on that and you have an epic surf vehicle.

The Rich 6 EV was launched in July 2019 as the world's first production electric truck.  Developed by the Dongfeng-Nissan joint-venture, itís obviously almost identical to the regular Rich truck design-wise. Itís not exactly wild either with an electric motor rated at 160 horsepower and 310 pound-feet of torque. But it can run for up to 250 miles on a single charge and its battery takes 45 minutes to charge to zero to 80 percent. Whatís more, it costs the equivalent of $19,000 after incentives. Indeed an electric truck for the people!

(https://www.evspecifications.com/images/news/f1c2126/main.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on December 01, 2019, 07:16:17 AM
Not only could you put racks on it, when you get to the beach you could make a little money inflating kites, wingdings, and pool toys
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:52:04 AM
Pretty cool, it's kind of surprising that no US automaker picked it up and certified it. It would probably be closer to 30K here, but still...

Interesting times for EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.

Yup, of course, you can also use a rack that attaches to the bed, and there's probably some kind of fittings in the upper rails. The bed is long so it will be easy to get good firm separation between the racks--78 inches is more than most of us manage to get with roof racks and rail mounts. Weld-on stuff is pretty interesting though. Of course, you need to have some kind of access to the back of any panel you weld to--stainless has to be back purged. I'll have to up my stainless welding game, but there's lots of time for that, unfortunately.

Tek screws, ugh. At the very least I'd use stainless rivnuts. I suspect most buyers won't drill holes in a new pickup. I'm not one of them. All the stainless rivet nuts I know of are 18-8 stainless which is generally compatible with 301, so that's a workable attachment option.
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on December 01, 2019, 11:43:42 AM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.

Yup, of course, you can also use a rack that attaches to the bed, and there's probably some kind of fittings in the upper rails. The bed is long so it will be easy to get good firm separation between the racks--78 inches is more than most of us manage to get with roof racks and rail mounts. Weld-on stuff is pretty interesting though. Of course, you need to have some kind of access to the back of any panel you weld to--stainless has to be back purged. I'll have to up my stainless welding game, but there's lots of time for that, unfortunately.

Tek screws, ugh. At the very least I'd use stainless rivnuts. I suspect most buyers won't drill holes in a new pickup. I'm not one of them. All the stainless rivet nuts I know of are 18-8 stainless which is generally compatible with 301, so that's a workable attachment option.

You will need to make them telescoping so to retract them so you can use the nifty vault lid. When you figure it out Bill, make me a set too.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:47:39 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on December 01, 2019, 10:22:12 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.

Bill

Make a set for me. If it is going to be a surf truck make it a woody. Dbrand is offering wraps for your cyber truck.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on December 02, 2019, 01:40:03 PM
This piece has some info and thoughts for people wondering where the Tesla fits into the truck market (although that's not what the piece is about). Among other things, truck buyers are loyal to trucks but not necessarily thrilled with the particular one they have, a strong majority of trucks are never or almost never used for towing or going off road, and a significant number of truck drivers don't ever use the truck bed.  Also, many aren't overly concerned with mileage or being "green" (but on the other hand, they haven't had good options for high-mileage trucks, either).  Trucks are also overwhelmingly bought by men--I wonder if that will be as true with the Tesla:


https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume?sfns=mo (https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume?sfns=mo)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on December 02, 2019, 03:01:58 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.

Bill

Make a set for me. If it is going to be a surf truck make it a woody. Dbrand is offering wraps for your cyber truck.

Bob
I hope those broken-window decals come with the woodgrain wrap package.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: fly2surf on December 03, 2019, 07:09:38 AM
Independent, like all Teslas. There's no real way to even make a solid axle unless you have a driveshaft.

Well I hope youíre right, I would much prefer independent suspension at all four corners.

I wonder what that will do to the dually / 5th wheel crowd though with respect to tow ratings and tongue / axle weight?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on December 03, 2019, 11:33:39 AM
I guess it's all about tire load.

Check out Atlis

https://www.atlismotorvehicles.com/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2019, 12:46:29 PM
So strange. Everyone is using a skateboard drivetrain, which makes perfect sense, and then designing trucks as if they had a massive lump of engine/transmission/transfer case and driveshaft up front and needed a huge frontal area to contain the radiator that has to dissipate 1600hp worth of power to keep a 500hp motor cool--but they don't. That's got to be all empty space--room for luggage or something.

I know people don't like change, but geez.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: robon on December 03, 2019, 04:01:53 PM
I really like the versatility of the Tesla truck on paper and I don't mind if a vehicle isn't pretty, but I definitely don't like the box structure that is reminiscent of the Chevy Avalanche and Honda Ridge Line, and it makes the box less versatile imo. The traditional shape and box rails of many trucks allow for very quick installation and removal of brackets for racks and canopies, without having to drill holes, or very few holes, also without the need to weld and fabricate custom bits and pieces. I'm all about simplicity.

I love having a canopy and use my truck bed for many different purposes. I could imagine a custom canopy costing upwards of ten thousand or more for the the Tesla. I would need to hire Pono to fabricate me something, or lots of somethings.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 04, 2019, 01:20:51 AM
Quote
So strange. Everyone is using a skateboard drivetrain, which makes perfect sense, and then designing trucks as if they had a massive lump of engine/transmission/transfer case and driveshaft up front and needed a huge frontal area to contain the radiator that has to dissipate 1600hp worth of power to keep a 500hp motor cool--but they don't. That's got to be all empty space--room for luggage or something.

I know people don't like change, but geez.

You could argue extra storage space, lovely spot for the charging indicator, etc. but in reality that is the coolest spot to mount the accessories that we don't use.  Just because I have never waded 3 feet deep, winched anything or hauled a few thousand lbs in a 4.5 foot pickup bed doesn't mean I won't need to.  Its about manly, Stanley.  https://manofmany.com/rides/cars/rivian-r1s-off-road-mods-keep-up-manly-appearances

(https://manofmany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rivian-R1S-Off-Road-Mods-2.jpg)

(https://manofmany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rivian-R1S-Off-Road-Mods-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: southwesterly on December 04, 2019, 10:28:55 PM
  If there is a will, there is a way.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on December 05, 2019, 03:31:15 AM
much rather a van than a pickup

unless you actually use the bed, like for dirt or gravel, in ways you couldnt use a van i dont see the design as particularly useful

rack? hassles, and kills fuel efficiency---altho with electric, seems we consider the fuel/energy piece a non-cost---not so sure that'll be the case once all combustion engines switch to electric, which is, likely, inevitable

certainly my dream surf mobile will have a rack, for when necessary--but, for normal use, ill just shove boards/bikes etc in the van and go