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General => Random => Topic started by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 04:23:56 AM

Title: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 04:23:56 AM
It seems like 2020 may be the year that we start seeing viable surf EV's in the USA.  I am stoked on that idea!  The Mercedes EQV van looks really nice with 253 miles of range.  An 80% charge in 45 minutes sounds good.  99 MPH will make Chan happy.  I still yell at people for flashing me off at 65 "what's your rush, Andretti".  Looks like Mercedes, VW and possibly others will also have some smaller SUV's available.  The VW ID BUZZ looks great as well but I believe that is slated for 2022.  Hopefully the US sees all of these.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1124642_mercedes-benz-eqv-electric-minivan-revealed

(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2020-mercedes-benz-eqv_100712526_h.jpg)

(https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/2020-mercedes-benz-eqc_100673478_h.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on August 22, 2019, 04:46:36 AM
yeah, i need new wheels but have been waiting for something hybrid/electric in the cargo van style. the VW Buzz looks awesome, but VW's have such a bad rep in general. That Mercedes looks like another bland minivan. Is it really that hard to deliver a good looking van? (apparently so). And it seems there would be a market for utility vehicles like this that don't require heavy hauling/towing capacities, thereby delivering much better energy efficiency, be it fuel or battery.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 04:55:15 AM
I've been looking at the Jeep Renegade pug-in hybrid to replace my CRV:

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/jeep/2019-jeep-renegade-hybrid-ar184867.html

Not a complete hybrid, but it gets about 30 miles.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2019, 06:27:52 AM
Yeah, I would buy one of these today if they were available.  370 HP, 300 Miles. They are doing a cargo version as well.  2022, though.  Faking emissions testing will be less of an issue with no emissions :).

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-bus-is-back-and-its-electric/

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SjtCYcAT69n8O17HUDxD1ATnTWo=/0x0:6000x4000/1820x1213/filters:focal(2520x1520:3480x2480):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56271355/id_buzz_concept_7416.0.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2019, 06:42:55 AM
I should have kept Diane's 2014 Model S and used it as general transport. A perfectly cherry, low miles P85+ for 45K is ridiculously cheap. They actually have provision for a rack. Anyone looking at inexpensive electric cars should take a hard look at the used Model S market. Cars that sold new for 130K selling for 35K. Fantastic cars. Any of the dual-motor cars with appropriate rubber would be a fine surfmobile in the WTF category. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 07:35:21 AM
Yeah, I would buy one of these today if they were available.  370 HP, 300 Miles. They are doing a cargo version as well.  2022, though.  Faking emissions testing will be less of an issue with no emissions :).

http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/future-cars/official-the-vw-bus-is-back-and-its-electric/

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/SjtCYcAT69n8O17HUDxD1ATnTWo=/0x0:6000x4000/1820x1213/filters:focal(2520x1520:3480x2480):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56271355/id_buzz_concept_7416.0.jpg)

Yeah, those new VWs are really cute. I can't see myself getting a full electric vehicle yet, but I like the progress. I wish there were more plug-in hybrids out there, especially ones that aren't sedans.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 22, 2019, 08:43:13 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-quality-durability-on-display-in-450k-mile-car-still-going-strong/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: abmatt on August 22, 2019, 09:41:56 AM
    It'll be fun to watch this unfold. I have a few years before retirement, and would love to have a full EV surf car by then.
   For now I'm super-happy with my commuter beach-to-downtown car, a 2015 Chevy Volt (plug-in hybrid) that goes months between fill-ups. I've driven it a little more than 12K miles and used 69 gallons (most of those on two 750-mile road trips). Overnight charges on the porch and 176 mpg. Love the silent ride -- I hear a muscle car snorting and wheezing next to me and it sounds so prehistoric. Yeah, smugness is a real risk with these things.
    Should put racks on it, but for now the 8-6 fits nicely on the passenger side when the seats are down.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 22, 2019, 09:45:40 AM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 22, 2019, 11:12:46 AM
That's got to be one of the uglies SUV's I've ever seen, where can I get one?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2019, 04:56:37 PM
Yup, fugly, but I'd order one if they were actually available. It will be interesting to see who gets to market first. Preorder doesn't count. There are lots of renderings around of what the Tesla pickup will look like. I think this one from Motor Trend is the most likely:

(https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2016/08/tesla-pickup-truck-right-front-angle-1.jpg?fit=around%7C875:492)

If it looks anything like that and performs as they claim, yeah, take my money. Want that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 22, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

From what I'm reading, Ford is working with Rivian to develop their electric pickups.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 22, 2019, 05:52:21 PM
The electric truck..

https://rivian.com/

From what I'm reading, Ford is working with Rivian to develop their electric pickups.
And a little company called Amazon.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 23, 2019, 04:20:20 AM
The Rivians look very cool and have amazing specs.  90K though for a pickup or SUV with the bigger battery.  The 230 mile range option is 70K but I wonder if you would be able to sell it in a few years with that lower range.  That is less of an issue on a less expensive vehicle. 

The VW ID 3 has a lot of preorders at 33K for a small crossover.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 23, 2019, 11:46:51 AM
It's tough to consider anything but a Tesla. They have such a commanding lead in battery tech, range, experience, charger network, and ratings that I don't really understand why anyone buys any basic sedan other than a Model 3. The new V3 supercharger gives 75 miles of range in five minutes--250 KW per hour. If you have a P100 extended range you can top off at 375 miles of range in 25 minutes. Model S has been Motor Trend's car of the year every year since 2013.

But yeah, I want a pickup. For the things people use pickups for it has to have a heck of a battery. The motor part is easy, the delivered torque of even a model S is substantially more than my 6.7-liter diesel. But if you're going to pull a 15000-pound trailer you're gonna need a lot of stored power.

Apparently, Tesla has that well in hand with the semi. The spy reports on their testing have been that the truck at a max load of about 44,000 pounds the truck not only pulls 5% grades at 65 mph (unheard of) but also gets more than the projected 500 miles of range. It's got one gear. The controls consist of a steering wheel, brake pedal and throttle. one gear--reverse runs the motor backward. Without a trailer, it did 0-60 in 4.9 seconds.

Those are insane specifications, but not all that surprising. Trains have been electric for decades--the diesel drives a generator, and the wheels are driven by big old-tech motors. The advantage has always been full torque from 0 rpm and no need for a transmission or a clutch. The only maintenance is to the diesel and wheel replacement. Some of the motors are 40 years old and have covered multiple millions of miles.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 24, 2019, 01:27:56 AM
I dig Tesla but right now they are essentially a luxury brand ($80K + starting prices) with one more moderately priced Sedan https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla .  The Model 3 is a terrific vehicle but, sedan.  Even Ford is over those :).  The model Y is a cool design but looks too small for boards in back (unless we start to get much better).  I really wish that they were doing an Outback sized vehicle.  So, the truck may be the first one that really does it.  Let's hope they give it a little more grit than the computer images. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Badger on August 24, 2019, 04:34:11 AM
I hate sedans. Every car should be a station wagon IMO, no matter what the size. It's much more practical.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 24, 2019, 07:03:17 AM
I consider the Model 3 to be fairly goofy--why isn't it a hatchback? I realize not many folks take a Sawzall to their new car but that's what I'd do if I had one. Take the back seat out and remove the divider between the trunk and cab. Utility first. I saw a youtube video about a young lady who turned a model S into a pickup. I got kind of excited about that (like I need another project) but then came to my senses. I need tow capacity, the Tesla S doesn't have it.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on August 24, 2019, 07:56:47 AM
Pono

Yes the Tesla 3 would be much better as a hatchback. I am awaiting the Y. It looks like Tesla is continuing to push the technology with a simplified wiring that will decrease the amount required by an order of magnitude. No one has mentioned
the eKona as a surf vehicle. We test drove one in the spring and were impressed. The surfboards would need to go on the roof rack. Reports of up to 500 km range for this small SUV are enticing.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 24, 2019, 11:33:29 AM
Yeah, the wiring tech Tesla is implementing is very cool stuff. I'm doing the DIY version in my motorhome, using MQQT and CanBus to eliminate the rat's nest that GMC installed in 1978 and some goofball restoration shop added horrifically to. All the DC switching for lights, water pump, air compressor for the suspension bags, etc. is being locally controlled at the device with an ESP32 microcontroller so it can be switched with a pushbutton at the device, wirelessly with a smartphone or remotely from the dash or control center wirelessly. It sounds like a stupid way to do something you can do equally well with a little wire and a cheap switch, but hey: Geek.

But given the wad of wiring I've taken out of the moho compared to just providing 12V to the devices, it's pretty elegant. The only exception is tail lights, brake lights, and turn indicators, and I was sorely tempted there as well, but reason prevailed.

Of course, if I ever sell this thing the new owner will be buying a whole bunch of exotic shit with minimal documentation and my crappy spaghetti code. Good luck future dude.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on August 26, 2019, 08:18:15 AM
Whew!  I watched this all the way through and these Rivians are super impressive.  The specs and capabilities are awesome.  The little details are right there as well.  Check out the tailgate and racking system at the end. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on August 26, 2019, 08:37:22 AM
And then there is Bollinger. 

https://youtu.be/7yIChwMkpQ8
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 26, 2019, 10:52:58 AM
Pono, and any one else, I have a couple of questions and comments:

(1) Why the press on being all-electric. Wouldn't it be more practical to go hybrid, that way you can use the existing gas station infrastructure and no more range anxiety.

(2) I read somewhere that, although they don't have transmissions, Teslas actually do have more than one gear. As explained, the gear ratios are different for the front and rear wheels and the computer distributes fore/aft power differently at different speeds, effectively providing different gearing at different driving conditions.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 12:30:46 PM
1. Hybrid is an intermediate solution, and like most such things includes the worst of both solutions spiced with a little taste of the best. The maintenance and complexity of internal combustion added to the limited range of small batteries and the weight of two drivetrains multiplied by the expense of both. They will probably die faster than pure ICE. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefit of ownership--we have a Chevy Volt in Maui that both Diane and I think is a really great car. But GMC had no way to make money with the Volt, so they killed it. Prius is the only really successful hybrid, and it achieves success with an amazing level of suckiness. Ride in a new Prius and your reaction will be "well, this doesn't suck as much as the early Prius". Ride in a new Model S or Model 3--even the base level--and your reaction is "Holy shit."

Range anxiety is a function of available chargers and charge rate. Having a charger available halfway through your trip that charges at 10KWH and therefore takes eight and a half hours to charge your car doesn't solve anxiety unless it's at a hotel and it's time for bed.   The current supercharger network mitigates that and will ultimately be much more efficient than carrying an entire gasoline-powered generator that displaces the larger battery that would solve the issue in 99 percent of the cases. If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational. That's why Tesla builds cars that make you say "Holy shit, this is awesome" rather than "Gee whiz, this suits all my potential uses but it's gutless and ugly". The supercharger network is getting a massive and relatively inexpensive (compared to building them in the first place) upgrade to 250KWH per charger. That's 1000 miles per hour of charge. Of course, you can't store that much, but that's what it is. Full charge for a 100KW car in 24 minutes. And no one charges to full power, so it's actually 85% in 21 minutes. And few people come in with no charge remaining, it's usually more like 40% left, charging to 85% which is ten minutes--pretty much what it takes to visit a gas station.

2. Actually, the dual-motor Model 3 has different motors front and rear. Not just different ratios but different underlying physics. Reluctance vs. Induction. They have a single-speed gear reduction, but I don't know if the ratios are different. Current Model S and X cars have single-speed gear reduction, 9.34:1 in the small drive units that go in the front of dual motor Teslas or the rear of the lowest spec Model S. The bigger motor rear-drive gear ratio is 9.73:1 in the dual motor and higher spec single motor S/X. Yes, the computer constantly shifts the balance of power applied to the front or rear of dual motor units to get the highest efficiency for a given speed and throttle setting, but it's not just the gear ratios, it's the size and performance characteristics of the motors. The dual-motor cars actually have better range/KWH than single motor despite having a lot more horsepower available--like almost double. Diane's grocery-getter five-passenger extended-range Model S has 642 horsepower and 585 ft-lbs of torque. The performance version is about 715.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on August 26, 2019, 04:13:41 PM
Haven't seen anything to replace my Element, but at the same time electric seems to be progressing more than fast enough to make me feel like I'd regret buying any gas car now.  So just need the Element to hold on for another couple years, which seems fine considering it's basically faultless.


As of the moment, I like the BMW i8, not because it'd be good for boards, but because they put a photo of my dog with one on their BMWi instagram page today that's getting thousands of likes every hour.  Hopefully they'll give my dog a new one.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 26, 2019, 04:23:40 PM
Bill,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I asked broad question, so your reply appropriately paints with a broad brush.

To refine a couple of points: I can appreciate that "If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational." But I think I'm a pretty rational guy. Last time I was in a Prius I thought it was a damn fine car, and I drive a Cayenne, but the 6-cylinder one, and that VW bus looks super -- but then again I don't race Peyote in my spare time.

I live in Miami, and my commute, which is 90% of my driving, is 25 miles opposite traffic, perfect for a Tesla. But its the other 10% that requires I maintain excess range capacity. The closest waves are 100-200 miles away, on the interstate. When surf is up, usually because a storm is brushing by (Go Dorian!), the routine is up before dawn, drive north between 100-200 miles to find the right break, park at the beach, surf until sundown and then limp the same distance home. I can't really be renting a car to do this. I've concluded that I either have to keep what I have, jump into a hybrid, despite the compromises you eloquently listed, or wait (how many years?) until all the gas stations are replaced with superchargers. Am I wrong? Is there a better solution? Also, do you expect that supercharger stations will be built next to existing gas stations, or will there be a period where a station will sell you both gas and a charge?

Jorge


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
The concentration of supercharger stations in Florida is ridiculous, surpassed only by a few other places. If I were you I'd by a used Model S for about 30-40K that has lifetime free supercharging (Any Tesla bought before September 2018) and never worry about gasoline again. Charge in your garage every night and wake up with a full "tank". Never stop at a gas station again. Yes, the lifetime free supercharging goes with the car. People are starting to realize that and are grabbing them up. Imagine buying a used Celica that came with free fillups for life. You'd keep that forever. There is a four-station 120KW supercharger on Marathon! You are surrounded by them, you just don't know about them. Del Rey beach, 35 superchargers at 72 KWH, West Palm, 9 superchargers, 120KW, Aventura, 36 superchargers, 72 KW. Between Miami and Cocoa beach, there are nine supercharger locations, and three in Miami.

All up and down the east coast, you can't get more than about a hundred miles from a Supercharger. With a few moments of planning, you can drive for the rest of the car's life for free, and the car could live for a million miles. Really, no shit. Maintenance is a joke. No oil, no grease, no nothing. Little things die, but like most electronics, make it past the first 20K miles and it's good for a very long time.

A 2014 P85+ will eat your Porsche's lunch.  One pedal, Press down hard. Done. You can get racks for it, and never go to another Porsche dealership in your life. It's actually a seven-passenger hatchback (if someone opted for the two kid seats in the back). Drop the back seats and you have a huge cargo space. And a "frunk" that's as big as most car's trunk. Brake pads have infinite life (more than 90 percent of braking is regenerative). Every so often you need to do a hard emergency stop to clean the oxidation off the disks. Tesla once paid a $245K fine for not having an OBDII connector within two feet of the steering wheel. They added one. It fundamentally reads nothing. Connects to the can bus, but there isn't anything in CAFE compliance to read.

Get in one and drive it. That's all it takes. You'll ditch your Cayenne so fast it will make your head spin. Makes me nuts that people don't get this. The future is here, it's just unevenly distributed.

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=50.164646070149935%2C-54.18220367399982%2C31.693201564706058%2C-102.34626617399982&filters=supercharger&zoom=6&location=topekasupercharger
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 27, 2019, 07:52:36 AM
Bill, I'm glad we had this chat. Thanks, Jorge
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:05:12 PM
I had a similar conversation with a friend a few months ago. He went off, did his own research, and bought a used 2018 100D for 51K. A few weeks later he texted me this: "Fastest, quickest, cheapest, most reliable, safest, environmentally responsible, comfortable, most cargo space, best amenities, best audio, automatically updating, autosteering, smartest, most comfortable, most beautiful car I've ever had. How did I not know this!"

I texted him back: "Motor Trend Car of the Year for the last seven years and they never took out a single ad in Motor Trend. What exactly the fuck does it take??"

I haven't heard back. Maybe I should have just smugly smiled instead of smugly replying.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:22:26 PM
All this makes me realize what a dope I am. I'm waiting for the Tesla Truck so I can have the towing capacity I no longer need. I bought my F350 truck because my previous one developed a monster oil leak I didn't want to deal with. Essentially I paid $65K for it if I value the trade-in appropriately.

I've decided to retire from road racing, so I actually don't need to drag my airstream race car hauler any more. So I don't really need the truck--I love the silly thing, but I really don't need it. I could ditch it and buy a used Tesla P100D. It's nuts that I don't. I love driving Diane's car.

I have to think about this.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on August 28, 2019, 10:47:44 AM
PB,

I went by the local Tesla dealer last night. With the kids grown-up and gone the Model S seems like too much car. And I'm not thrilled with the Model 3's conservative styling. I like the layout of SUV's like my Cayenne, higher driving position, back seat for the dog, all my shit in the back area. The Model X would be a great replacement if only that roof line and gull-wing doors didn't interfere with Racks for the boards.
Maybe I'm not that rational after all.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on August 28, 2019, 10:57:39 AM
Agreed... Tesla needs to put a roof over the bed of its vapor pickup.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 12:09:26 PM
Totally rational--I think the model X sucks toads--wouldn't have one. The wing doors are beyond stupid. Needless complexity that compromises the utility. An SUV you can't put a rack on? If they did an X with doors like a minivan I'd buy one even though I think don't like the glass roof either. Any time you need to jump through hoops to have a front window visor that works it's time to rethink the design goals.  I love the model S. Maybe you need to wait for the Y. I have no idea why they made the 3 a sedan. Who wants that?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on August 31, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
Here is the Tesla model 'P'......Hmmmm. I guess it's halfway to the model 'V'. Kinda Power-Wagon ish. Maybe not?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-unveiling-of-a-pickup-truck-is-right-around-the-corner-2019-08-31



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2019, 09:03:48 PM
A seriously dopey article and the comments on Marketwatch are as stupid as anything I've seen on Youtube. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. The author says Farmers need to be able to fix their F150's in the field. Really? What kind of bozo do you need to be to think that's either possible or relevant?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 04:44:47 PM

Didn't notice that anyone's posted this one yet--just need to figure out where the board goes:


https://www.motortrend.com/news/save-pennies-vw-likely-build-id-buggy/ (https://www.motortrend.com/news/save-pennies-vw-likely-build-id-buggy/)


(https://media.wired.com/photos/5d56e031017c5c0008bdec24/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/Transpo_VWDune_IBA27214.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 05:52:57 PM
A seriously dopey article and the comments on Marketwatch are as stupid as anything I've seen on Youtube. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. The author says Farmers need to be able to fix their F150's in the field. Really? What kind of bozo do you need to be to think that's either possible or relevant?
Not a lot of farmers here in Portland (or Seattle) but lots of pickups, and I'd guess zero percent of owners of trucks built within the last several years work on them. 


He also wrote, "Unlike tech enthusiasts, they value utility and durability far more than gimmicks..."  with "they" being "its target audience: truck owners, farmers and technicians (among others)".

What I see being valued by new truck owners here is size, chrome, weight, the color black, and huge emblems with names like "titanium".  Utility and durability may be what they delude themselves into thinking their trucks provide, if they care at all.  Maybe a couple decades ago people who would have previously bought passenger cars switched over to buying trucks because they WERE practical, spacious and a good value.  Then automakers saw that people who weren't typical truck people were buying them, assumed it was because of image, and started designing trucks to deliver the image they thought customers wanted--at the expense of practicality and function.

Once a Ford executive bragged that their truck buyers had the highest income of buyers of all truck brands.  Then someone pointed out that's because they'd made them unaffordable.

Same thing happened with vehicles like Jeeps and other SUVs, which became "mall crawlers" and phrases like "lockers before lightbars" (or vice versa, as people saw looks-before-function as being positive) got coined.

Now trucks are caricatures, to the point a lot of people who could use a truck would be ashamed to be seen in one.  So I think there's a market for a vehicle with a truck bed, without the overblown truck image.



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 01, 2019, 07:18:28 PM
PDX....I totally disagree. You like the web so go online and look at boat ramps across the USA.  All Trucks. Look at what people are pulling RV’s with. Your Yugoslav just  isn’t going to cut it. You need to get away from Portland once in awhile. Even Pono has one..... 8)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 01, 2019, 07:29:43 PM
Question....What’s the number one selling vehicle on Maui? Toyota Tacoma....I rest my case.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 01, 2019, 09:07:25 PM
Actually, Jeep Wrangler slipped by the Tacoma in HI.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 09:26:21 PM
Question....What’s the number one selling vehicle on Maui? Toyota Tacoma....I rest my case.
Well, I did say I was talking about trucks "here", not Maui, so I'm not sure what case you're resting.

Even so, you're making my point for me.  Tacomas have grown over the years, too, but they look like compacts now in comparison to other brands' current models.  Their styling also hasn't gone full steroided-out like other brands.  They're very popular here, too, especially among people who use their trucks as actual trucks, versus driving to the office or store.  So it's no surprise they're so popular among truck buyers, as the other makes have swelled in size and price, and largely abandoned the smaller-truck market to them.  I'm not sure if the specs of all brands would bear that out, but it's certainly my impression.




Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 01, 2019, 10:00:36 PM
PDX....I totally disagree. You like the web so go online and look at boat ramps across the USA.  All Trucks. Look at what people are pulling RV’s with. Your Yugoslav just  isn’t going to cut it. You need to get away from Portland once in awhile. Even Pono has one..... 8)
Ironic that you mention boat ramps.  I live close to one, and have walked through the lot at least daily over the last decade, so a few thousand times over the last several years.  My comments were based in large part on what I've seen there.  Trucks are getting larger with more muscular styling.  Older full-size Fords or Chevys look midsize now.  Plus, almost every newer truck has at least an extended cab, with lots of them having full, four-door cabs.  Not true with older trucks.

And of course people are using trucks to pull RVs and boat trailers.  Passenger cars and smaller SUV's aren't appropriate for that.

I never said trucks weren't popular, which seems to be all that you got out of my comments.  I said they're getting larger with more exaggerated styling, and that I think there's a market for trucks whose designs aren't  focused on size, chrome, and "truck" image.  The trucks of 1990 or 2000 were pulling heavy loads, too, and they look absolutely stripped down and lean compared to their descendants today.  I think plenty of owners of newer trucks today would prefer more options for that type of truck compared to what's been available to them recently.  And, as I said earlier, I think there are plenty of people who wouldn't buy a truck today who might if they could buy something more like the Tesla. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Weasels wake on September 02, 2019, 10:00:43 AM
Four wheels, four wheels, for wheels, how about only two wheels.  As posted on the Rad Power Bike Owners Group page on Bookface.  The Rad Rover, same bike as mine, but I haven't done this.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 04, 2019, 07:15:09 AM
How about just Onewheel 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAQY-COxpcw like this
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 10:40:29 AM
Even Pono has one..... 8)

Zero percent working on them is for sure. Besides the fact that you can't do anything to them without disassembling half the vehicle, you also need to understand the vagaries of CanBus and OBDII before you screw with one. I've been studying that stuff for weeks now so I can wire my motorhome project without a few miles of point-to-point wiring, and I still would touch a modern vehicle that had any kind of warranty.

I'm kind of done with my F350. It's a bit pointless. I bought it to haul my race car trailer, but now I'm not racing. And yeah, mine is huge. Diane has to throw herself at it to get in the cab. But I've got it, so until something electric comes along with a utility aspect I'm stuck with it. The only time I use it as a truck is when I take a trailer full of shop trash to the dump--which is about 300 yards from my shop. I've got a trailer hitch on my tractor--I could use that instead.

Until the wind picks back up I'm riding my Norton. Or my eBike. Even when the wind comes back if I'm not crossing the Button Bridge I should can use the eBike to wingfoil. It's all set up for it.

About 70 percent of the vehicles sold in the USA are Pickups and truck frame SUV's. (from Statistica--In 2018, the U.S. auto industry sold about 17.2 million light vehicle units. This figure includes the retail sales of 5.3 million autos and 11.9 million light truck units.) Need for a truck has almost nothing to do with those numbers. If you wonder why Ford has basically exited the auto biz, there's your answer.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 04, 2019, 11:22:30 AM
Even Pono has one..... 8)

I'm kind of done with my F350. It's a bit pointless. I bought it to haul my race car trailer, but now I'm not racing. And yeah, mine is huge. Diane has to throw herself at it to get in the cab. But I've got it, so until something electric comes along with a utility aspect I'm stuck with it. The only time I use it as a truck is when I take a trailer full of shop trash to the dump--which is about 300 yards from my shop. I've got a trailer hitch on my tractor--I could use that instead.

Same here with my F250. Used to pull a Fifth-Wheel with it. Sold the Fifth-Wheel years ago. It's a 2002 with just over 100k miles. The interior is like new and it runs great. I only put about 3K miles a year on it now. I do use it here and there, and I have a place to park it, so doesn't make sense to sell it.
Our next car will be electric.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 04, 2019, 01:03:21 PM
in nyc electric will be a problem--most people park on the streets which require cars be moved around for weekly street-cleaning (really a ruse to write 140$ tickets--they rarely clean and dog owners were forced to start picking up after their dogs some 30 years ago) so few new yorkers will have regular access to any non-service-station power sources

those who pay 500 per month for their car to be parked (bumper-carred) by an attendant somewhere deep in a garage, will no doubt pay more if they need attendant to plug in a charger for them.

and the city certainly wont be installing outlets on the curbs any time soon

i own a garage so i might be able to hack it, but i often prefer to park in front of my house

i wont buy another non-electric car--tho my 2 2019 foresters will last a while--look like shit already given the mean streets of the big city

god i love new york!!!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 04:47:18 PM
The prediction most experts are making for car sales includes a big dip while people keep their ICE cars while waiting for the ideal electric for them. For a ridiculous number of people, that's the model Y. I just hope the liftover height isn't what they showed on the car during the reveal. A hatchback/crossover SUV with a high liftover is just crap design. I'll probably get rid of my truck and get a model Y if it pencils out. If I time everything reasonably I can get a ridiculous hooligan Y for not too much more than I can sell my truck for--unless the diesel truck market craters. It shouldn't. If you can't smoke all four tires down to the hub then it's just not enough torque.

Diane turned down a cheap Ludicrous mode on her new S in favor of long-range, and her car is just stupid quick. I've been racing shit all my life and I've never been in anything so quick. It feels like my skeleton is being extruded out my back.

New York City and the surrounding area has a nutty number of superchargers. They're probably pretty plugged up with dickhead New Yorkers leaving their car on the charger while they go get lunch. Altruism is thin on the ground in that overcrowded rat cage--or anywhere where parking is more than a few bucks a day. If the superchargers are completely impossible to access you might look at a model S prior to Sept 2018, eastie. Free supercharging for life. I've given serious consideration to butchering a Model S. At $45K for a P85D you can do about anything you want with it. Pull out the back seats, add a roof rack. Surfmobile you can sleep in that you can charge for free.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2019, 05:49:33 PM
Oops, I meant "if the superchargers are NOT completely impossible to access"
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 04, 2019, 07:53:01 PM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS. The e car aficionados will be long gone before that happens. In the mean time I will just enjoy my 2020 Transit 250 AWD eco boost 3.5 with leather,nav,electric cargo door and dual swivel seats.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on September 05, 2019, 08:01:26 AM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS. The e car aficionados will be long gone before that happens. In the mean time I will just enjoy my 2020 Transit 250 AWD eco boost 3.5 with leather,nav,electric cargo door and dual swivel seats.

Tesla's aren't for me either. They're too expensive and.., I don't know. I am as green as it gets, and I'm glad to see Tesla pushing the big car companies in the right direction, but I want my environmentalism accessible by normal folk.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on September 05, 2019, 12:46:40 PM
The economics of electric and hybrid cars are approaching and in certain instances have surpassed ICE vehicles. In Vancouver and perhaps other cities cab companies have switched almost entirely to hybrid vehicles because it makes economic sense, not because of a sense of responsibility to the environment. The cost per kilometre is less primarily because of the large number of kilometres they put on them.

Once the cost of owning and running an ICE vehicle approaches parity with electrics there will be a landslide towards electric cars. Much of that timing will depend on moving the government subsidies from oil companies towards infrastructure for electrics and individual ownership. I along with many other people hope that the time will come sooner rather than later. We are fast approaching another landslide that even technology may not be able to reverse. We live in interesting times.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 05, 2019, 12:59:20 PM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. He’s also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 05, 2019, 01:19:18 PM
...and, while you may not throw a rack on it, you could surely have a fun surf/wind check with the new 800 Volt Taycan.  Maybe not as pretty as the Mission E proto but pretty pretty.

https://newatlas.com/automotive/porsche-taycan-turbo-s/

(https://assets.newatlas.com/dims4/default/bff4f39/2147483647/strip/true/crop/5040x2835+0+0/resize/840x473!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.newatlas.com%2Fff%2Ff6%2Fa60b207c4fdcb7fdc8ff86febcba%2F4889872-taycan-turbo-s-2019-porsche-ag.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 05, 2019, 01:44:30 PM
If you want to see the near future take a peek at Norway.  While 20 percent of the GDP comes from petro, most of the domestic electicity comes form hydro and they have the highest per capita EV utilization. (More than 60 percent of cars sold in Norway are EV.)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 05, 2019, 02:20:00 PM
Rich people have a tendency to think most normal people think like them. I want an e car, most people want an e car. That idea is BS.
As with cell phones, TVs so big you mount them on a wall, home computers, microwave ovens, car stereos, air conditioning, indoor plumbing, electric lights, cars...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 05, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/ (https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/)

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. He’s also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.  And while the Tesla truck styling may scare away people who don't want to call attention to themselves, I can easily see people who currently have something like a Subaru wagon getting something like the Rivian (truck or SUV) for their next vehicle, with the electric aspect being as much of a  positive (eliminates worry of buying a dinosaur) as the non-overcompensating styling.


I also think a lot of people aren't yet comfortable going electric yet, but at the same time feel that buying another gas one is a step backwards.  Some people love being the first with something, but more don't (especially when it's expensive) and electric cars are still rare enough that many people don't have close friends or relatives who have one. A few more electric vehicle options and some better charging could cause a cascade effect, and most everyone knows that, which could increase the cascade.  So many people seem to be just waiting now.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
Actually total cost of ownership of a pure EV is already lower than an internal combustion car in most places. If electricity is super expensive then the advantage declines, but generally places with high electricity cost offer substantially lower off-peak rates and every EV I know of can be set up to charge off-peak. The used EV market greatly favors buyers because the range and features of EV's advance so rapidly. If you don't care about self driving, they're pretty cheap.

The big fear is that the batteries won't last long and will be expensive to replace. That's turned out to be a non-issue. Battery life for well regulated batteries turns out to be much higher than anyone anticipated. Tesla accumulates vast amounts of data about their cars. Turns out that on average Teslas at 160,000 miles have lost less than 10 percent of their range. The original estimates were that they would loose 40% by then, probably because it was assumed they'd be full cycled a lot more than they are. Newer Teslas being routinely charged between 20% discharge to 85% charge lose .3% of capacity per year. If you stay in that range with only occasional full cycle forays it would take 166 years to reach 50% capacity.

Without that concern the entire TCO is initial price, insurance, cost to charge, and trivial maintenance. The gearbox oil gets changed at 75,000 miles.

Pop this to full screen. Weird that it's not quicker, any old 100D will eat it's lunch, including Diane's grocery getter. But it sure is pretty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61XXirmxn4U
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 05, 2019, 04:29:06 PM
Hey there's no turbo in my Turbo...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 12:51:51 AM
Weird that it's not quicker, any old 100D will eat it's lunch, including Diane's grocery getter. But it sure is pretty.

The Taycan Turbo Spec is 0-60 in 2.6 seconds.  The Rivian trucks are doing 0-60 in 3 seconds.  Those are all silly numbers.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 01:05:36 AM
My new Rivian will have 400 miles of range so maybe not an issue for me :) but Joe Biden announced his Greener new deal and he plans to make EV and public charging a priority.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/ (https://electrek.co/2019/06/04/biden-warren-clean-energy/)

"Biden is also aiming to accelerate EV adoption, with a plan to deploy more than 500,000 new public charging stations by 2030. He’s also calling to fully restore the electric vehicle tax credit."
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.  And while the Tesla truck styling may scare away people who don't want to call attention to themselves, I can easily see people who currently have something like a Subaru wagon getting something like the Rivian (truck or SUV) for their next vehicle, with the electric aspect being as much of a  positive (eliminates worry of buying a dinosaur) as the non-overcompensating styling.


I also think a lot of people aren't yet comfortable going electric yet, but at the same time feel that buying another gas one is a step backwards.  Some people love being the first with something, but more don't (especially when it's expensive) and electric cars are still rare enough that many people don't have close friends or relatives who have one. A few more electric vehicle options and some better charging could cause a cascade effect, and most everyone knows that, which could increase the cascade.  So many people seem to be just waiting now.

It is great that these guys will be first to market with a truck because the specs are off the chart and they are setting a really high bar for Tesla and others to follow. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 03:22:28 AM
regards the Rivian, it must be nice to pay $70G for a base model truck without blinking an eye.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 04:05:12 AM
regards the Rivian, it must be nice to pay $70G for a base model truck without blinking an eye.

They are saying $62,500 (if you went with the base level) with the tax credit and if you factor in annual savings for fuel and maintenance you are pretty comparable to a ICE truck that will tow 11,000 lbs.  But then consider the spec of the vehicle.  You are getting way more for your money.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 05:51:05 AM
my 2013 Ridgeline cost about $30G. yeah, it won't tow 11G, but then again, i don't tow anything and think most that own pickups don't either. i'm not saying the Rivian isn't a cool truck...i think it's awesome. But if you tend to take very longs trips (like i do a few times a year), the Rivian won't cut it. And if you want that 400 mile capability, you'll pay a lot more than 62K.  And regards the cost savings, as an engineer friend of mine told me: you don't buy an electric vehicle because it's overall cheaper (because it isn't), you buy it because it's electric. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 06, 2019, 06:08:25 AM
For me the ultimate is just not having to drive. I like Zero to 150 to Zero "You have arrived at your destination".
Remember these early electric vehicles?
 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 06:41:21 AM
Your engineer friend has never driven one--if he had, he'd never say something so silly. Most of the people I know who have a Tesla bought it because they drove one, usually one belonging to a friend. Diane and I weren't even considering them until we drove a friend's tatty 2012 model S. By every measure, it's the best car I've ever driven, and I've owned and driven a lot of great cars. There's a reason why it's been Motor Trend's Car Of The Year every year since 2012--that has to make the companies that spent millions advertising with them insane. Tesla doesn't advertise. The more objective you are about buying a car, the more likely you are to wind up with a Tesla Model S or 3 (or maybe an X, though I think they suck toads). Being electric and considering the environment doesn't even need to enter the decision-making process.

Rivian is going to have a tough go because they lack the infrastructure of high-speed chargers that Tesla has. While it's true that more than 99.6 percent of trips driven in the USA in private vehicles are less than two hundred miles round trip, there is still the perception that a vehicle that can't accommodate every potential use is undesirable. I know that firsthand--its why I bought my stupid giant F350. I'd say 99.99 percent of my use of that truck could be accommodated better with an econobox.

If I don't fall in love with the Tesla Pickup or Model Y I think next spring I'll ditch the F350 and buy a used Model S, put racks on it and rip the back seats out. It will be perfect. Park it on the street, charge it at my shop. I want to do a massive PV system at the shop anyway. Even with the cheap Northwest electricity, the payback on solar for my use will be 7 years. People will go insane at the way I'm abusing a beautiful car, but it will be a straight-across deal financially, and I'll never fill that 48-gallon tank or darken the door at SpeedyLube again. Definitely needs to be 4WD, might need to jack it up.

Wow, thanks for the inspiration, beached, I just realized the time to sell my F350 is this autumn before we head for Maui.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: beached on September 06, 2019, 09:42:13 AM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 01:37:32 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.

I know the feeling, I was monumentally pissed to buy a new Diesel truck, but I was stuck. As much as I love racing cars, I'm kind of tickled that I don't need a truck anymore to haul mine--even though this is the very best diesel truck I've ever owned or ridden in. Really amazing. But what I'd really like is the concept version of the Honda Element (The one that you could wash the interior out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower) but I want it as a 4WD electric with a 200 mile range.

Gregg Leion (covesurfer) is screaming "yes!"
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 02:24:44 PM
I just finished reading an interesting report from BNP Paribas (one of the world's largest banks) on the economics of oil vs. renewables. Very strange and interesting. https://docfinder.bnpparibas-am.com/api/files/1094E5B9-2FAA-47A3-805D-EF65EAD09A7F It introduces a concept I've never seen expressed in exactly this way before, but I've suspected was so (Hmmm, that doesn't make a lot of sense). Anyway, the concept is Energy Return On Capital Invested. In this report it's specifically targeted at renewables plus EVs, meaning how much energy at the wheels do we get for $100BN invested. The conclusion of the report is pretty much stated in the one-page introduction, but the rest of the report (40 pages) is interesting calculations if you like numbers and economic data.

Bottom line is that oil has a huge advantage in size and flow rate but can't compete with renewables/EVs over even a relatively short timeframe. For ICEs and oil to deliver the same mobility over the next 25 years the companies/countries would have to spend 6.2 to 7 time more than if they invested in renewables and ICEs. 25 years doesn't seem all that short term to me since I'll likely be dead before then, but that's a staggering difference, and it doesn't consider environmental costs at all.

I'd expect this study to be lambasted from every corner, anyone that talks about replacing 40% of global fuel demand in short order is going to attract some attention. That 40 percent is worth 3.2 billion dollars a DAY. The cheery folks who benefit from that cash trickle have started major wars to protect their interests. Slinging a little FUD is the least of it.


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 06, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.

I know the feeling, I was monumentally pissed to buy a new Diesel truck, but I was stuck. As much as I love racing cars, I'm kind of tickled that I don't need a truck anymore to haul mine--even though this is the very best diesel truck I've ever owned or ridden in. Really amazing. But what I'd really like is the concept version of the Honda Element (The one that you could wash the interior out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower) but I want it as a 4WD electric with a 200 mile range.

Gregg Leion (covesurfer) is screaming "yes!"
I don't clean mine out with a hose and dry it with a leaf blower, but I do clean it out with a leaf blower.  It works great with the huge openings the suicide doors allow.  I actually got the idea to use a leaf blower instead of a vacuum from Caddyshack.


I just looked up Honda Element concept and found an article about the Element coming out again, but as a hybrid.  It also mentions some other changes (smaller interior, lower clearance) that could move it away from the original Element's utilitarian dream car status.


https://suvbible.com/honda/2020-honda-element/ (https://suvbible.com/honda/2020-honda-element/)
(https://i1.wp.com/suvbible.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2020-Honda-Element-release-date.jpeg?w=640&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 06, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
looks nice by me....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 06, 2019, 06:15:05 PM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Rider on September 06, 2019, 07:11:34 PM
Pono.... So we’re taking your Tesla Rat Rod on a SUP trip to San Carlos? Pretty sure they have a charging station at the fish camp....Really... have you and your techie friends ever been anywhere besides Maui. You are just full of bull shit....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on September 06, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
Pono,  i think you misinterpreted me. all my engineering friend drives is electric vehicles and has for years. he loves them. what he meant was you don't buy an electric vehicle for savings, you buy them because once you do, you never want to drive ICE's again.
This is an interesting discussion (and long, about an hour) with two engineers who dismantled a Tesla 3 and are are ready and waiting  to dismantle a Y. Their conclusions were interesting. The body was over done, could have been much simpler. After that as far as the rest of the car, no other company is coming close. https://insideevs.com/news/365847/video-munro-tesla-model-y-ev-competition/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on September 06, 2019, 08:52:42 PM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
They (the old ones, don't know about the future ones) come close to waterproof.  The interior is unbelievably spacious.  You can fold the two rear seats down flat in about two seconds each, or up against the side walls in about 10 seconds each, or in 30 seconds each you can pop them out of the car entirely.  You can fit 10' long pipes or posts inside diagonally, or a couple bikes upright, because the interior is so high.  Suicide doors make it easy to load bulky things.  Carries some things easily that would have been a struggle in my old Suburban.  Headroom and legroom are great. 


One article I read about them (or actually about a Toyota concept SUV that writer said hadn't learned from Honda's mistakes with the Element) described how the Element has a cult following, and was perfect in many ways, but never sold well.  The author's theory was that Honda marketed the Element to young adventurers, but those never bought them (one reason being young people don't buy a lot of new cars, and many don't go outside (except maybe the types who drive trucks or Jeeps?).  The people who bought them were older, often women, often dog or bicycle owners, often creative types like photographers--people who appreciated their boxy, rugged roominess and accessibility.  But Honda never marketed to those people, so people just didn't find out the Element might have been perfect for them except by chance or word of mouth.  It seemed to make some sense.

I was excited to see the new one coming out, and that it looks so similar to the old.  Would have been nice to have an electric option, but then again mine is still going like new at 150k miles so I'm not shopping yet.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 07, 2019, 04:10:56 AM
jeeze rider, you cant just be nice..................

you make think youre rich happy smart and great---try being nice---youll be so much more........
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on September 07, 2019, 04:57:14 AM
The world is full of people who can’t follow the data and think the status quo is forever. Ask me about all my friends who spent hours arguing how we’d never bank online or that people wouldn’t buy shoes online. Hell, I love folks like that. They let me make money on things that they and the rest of the world ignore until it’s too late.

I’m a techie and while my family in Texas drive all over hell’s half acre every weekend, I know that I don’t drive more than 4 hours at a time ever. I also know that when I need to rentals are cheap. Everyone else like me will figure this out too soon.

Finally, if any of you are watching the life you get out of an electric car it starts to make sense. Two $30k trucks or one Rivan or Tesla?

But I know that most folks won’t do the math. And those that do will keep using the advantage. The bummer is that that builds resentment instead of respect, or admiration, or God forbid, emulation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 07, 2019, 06:14:40 AM
Wow, that's exactly what I was imagining when I said I thought there's a market for vehicles that have a truck bed without the overblown truck styling.

Rivian did something that seems like it should have been obvious to anyone approaching the EV market as a new company.  They looked at the vehicle categories that Americans actually buy and went after those first (Trucks and SUV's).  Then they went about designing a platform (their skateboard below) that can be used on almost all vehicles in these categories.   The skateboard is their product.  Ford is already on board for $500 Million, Amazon for $700 Million, and Rivian has made it clear that they have no exclusive agreements.  They are open to sell this platform tech to multiple groups and use it themselves.  Beach's comment about price point is valid.  I see the original Rivian branded offerings as "this is what is possible".  Basically a wish list of truck and SUV features.  It will offer an unprecedented option to people that are comfortable in that price range but more importantly,  it opens the door for other builders to come in and design every possible flavor and certainly lower price points.  In my mind that is a very smart way to approach the market.  Tesla has a very Apple approach.  These are our 4 products, they come in these colors which would you like?  Rivian is going another way.  It is interesting to watch. 

PS: the middle picture is a rendering based on a Rivian patent for a modular rear end.  It is hypothetical but cool and entirely doable should they choose.

(https://ecomento.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Rivian-Elektroauto-R1T.jpg)

(https://s3-prod.autoweek.com/s3fs-public/rivian-selection.jpg)

(https://rivian.com/static/Skateboard-Animation_Powertrain_r2_0000-f4a0439b906337844d9178cf3bec5b19.png)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: bbqSUPer on September 07, 2019, 06:31:30 AM
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 07, 2019, 09:24:26 AM
The Element is an ideal design for a skateboard chassis, which every electric from now on will be. I think that would be the perfect surfmobile if it had waterproof seats, waterproof, rubberized interior, and maximum cubic uninterrupted space. Easy to design, but I don't know if anyone other than me would want one. Hybrids are a dead-end unless you just don't want to build a charging network. At some point, Tesla will probably be motivated to share, but it's such a big moat right now that the stockholders would shoot Musk if he gave it up.
They (the old ones, don't know about the future ones) come close to waterproof.  The interior is unbelievably spacious.  You can fold the two rear seats down flat in about two seconds each, or up against the side walls in about 10 seconds each, or in 30 seconds each you can pop them out of the car entirely.  You can fit 10' long pipes or posts inside diagonally, or a couple bikes upright, because the interior is so high.  Suicide doors make it easy to load bulky things.  Carries some things easily that would have been a struggle in my old Suburban.  Headroom and legroom are great. 


One article I read about them (or actually about a Toyota concept SUV that writer said hadn't learned from Honda's mistakes with the Element) described how the Element has a cult following, and was perfect in many ways, but never sold well.  The author's theory was that Honda marketed the Element to young adventurers, but those never bought them (one reason being young people don't buy a lot of new cars, and many don't go outside (except maybe the types who drive trucks or Jeeps?).  The people who bought them were older, often women, often dog or bicycle owners, often creative types like photographers--people who appreciated their boxy, rugged roominess and accessibility.  But Honda never marketed to those people, so people just didn't find out the Element might have been perfect for them except by chance or word of mouth.  It seemed to make some sense.

I was excited to see the new one coming out, and that it looks so similar to the old.  Would have been nice to have an electric option, but then again mine is still going like new at 150k miles so I'm not shopping yet.
I have 140K on mine and it's still like new. My roof rack started to rattle the other day, so I tightened it down. Aside from tires and brakes, that's the only repair I've ever needed to do. It's the best car for a tall person. I have about 4" of head clearance in mine. My head touches the headliner in my F250. Toyota anything, I'm tilting the seat back and my forehead is against the headliner. Haven't sat in a Tesla, but I would bet I'd have to tilt the seat back to sit in it. In my 20's I bought a BMW. First thing I did was take it to a body shop and have them cut the seat track and weld it to the floor. My head still just touched the headliner. I hated that car. Sold it after about 9 months. 61' convertible bug with a dual ported 1600 was one of my favorite cars I ever owned. Used to tie my windsurfing gear down to the convertible top locking hooks at the top of the windshield. Windsurf all day in San Pedro and cruise down the coast in the evening with the under-seat heater valve just cracked open. Perfect. 
Fun thing about trends, they're so obvious. I was on the freeway the other day and I passed two car hauler semi's. Both of them were loaded with the exact same truck. Toyota Tacoma's, 4wd, crew cabs, in that new flat grey color 8) Two guys I surf with at SanO and my Nephew have the exact same truck... same color ::)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 08, 2019, 07:33:27 AM
The article below talks about the potential unveiling of Tesla's upcoming truck.  They also mention and un(der)sung attribute of on site charging.  I thought it was cool that Rivian plans to include 3 outlets in their truck bed and a compressor.  That means that I will be able to inflate a wing in .01 second and beat Bill to the water (or more likely I will explode some perfectly good wings). 

We’ve long thought that pickup trucks are prime for electrification.  There are a lot of advantages to be had in a pickup truck format.  The design already has a large, flat area which would be perfect for batteries, high low-end torque and superior torque control from electric motors would be great for towing and offroading, and the ability to charge tools from the pickup’s battery or to charge the truck from job site electricity hookups would both be convenient.

https://electrek.co/2019/09/07/tesla-pickup-will-most-likely-be-unveiled-in-november-says-elon-musk/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 08, 2019, 08:07:05 AM
I am all for these new vehicles.  The price up front seems steep and is always what the haters say.  But there are plenty of Ford Raptors driving around the streets of Eastern NC.

For those of you with experience or maybe know the data, what kind of issues/repairs do these vehicles have.  The more the technology the less the average guy can work on them.  Part of the reason I wanted my 2006 jeep is that I can pretty much fix or replace anything in it on the side of a road if I needed to.  The more computers and stuff in these vehicles scare me from a repair perspective.

In the long term, the reliability is superb. Hardly any moving parts. The only lubrication is generally in the gearbox, which is usually just a single reduction gear and the oil gets changed every 75,000 miles.

In the short term, other than the drive system, these are purely computers and software. So no, you can't fix them unless you get really smart on how the systems work, and they can glitch like any complex software. Tesla does automatic over-the-air updates and fixes, so the software issues get fixed quickly, but weird shit happens that you don't have control over except for the smartphone standby--reboot.

I'm a decent mechanic and reasonably experienced with electronics and embedded systems. I've been stuffing my head full of CANBus, OBDII, and alternative network protocols like MQQT to do the wiring for Fritz (my stupid MoHo project). The more I learn, the more I realize that modern vehicles--ICE or EV--are becoming or already are virtually impenetrable to amateur DIY. Just trying to understand the control codes and operation for a single vehicle would be a year-long project, and the manufacturers hold the information closely because the security of these systems suck out loud. Since Tesla has more of a Silicon Valley nature than a rust belt car manufacturer their approach to security is a lot more robust, which makes repairing or modifying any of the devices really difficult.

For example, these are the communications that take place to clear fault codes in the ABS ECU of some ford vehicles:
IDH: 07, IDL: 60, Len: 08, Data: 03 14 FF 00 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 7F 14 78 00 00 00 00
IDH: 07, IDL: 68, Len: 08, Data: 03 54 FF 00 00 00 00 00

ID0760 is the ABS ECU that the diagnostic tool is talking to. ID0768 is the response sent to the diagnostic tool reading the codes and resetting the stored fault. Each ECU has hundreds and sometimes thousands of communication codes it responds to. There are typically 70+ ECUs in a modern car, each with its own computer talking to all the other computers, using codes specific to the car and manufacturer. ICE's generally have a lot more ECUs than EVs because they have a lot more systems to control. EVs generally have a lot more powerful ECUs that do a lot more sophisticated stuff. Every Tesla since 2016, for example, has two redundant main computers powerful enough to process all the data from all the cameras, radar, sonar, and other navigation sensors simultaneously.

That's undoubtedly more than you wanted to know. I'm basically writing this stuff for myself because it helps me lock down things that are just floating around in my pointy head. By the way, your 2006 has plenty of stuff going on in it's slightly less sophisticated control systems that you have little hope of understanding.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2019, 12:35:12 AM
Most folks can’t wrench on the most important tech they own, their phone, yet they rely on it for their work and all other aspects of their lives. They also mostly just work.

When you can control the hardware and software things can be far more reliable.

We had to learn to wrench because the machines broke so much. In a few years that’s another thing that will be gone too.

How many folks do you know who can fix their phone at hardware level? Better yet, how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system? Even less. It’s all changing.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 09, 2019, 05:03:27 AM
how many can fix a critical system that their business operates on like a Point Of Sale system?

That is a real issue.  So much business software is now cloud based and closed/proprietary that not only can users not fix it, they cannot alter it and can lose the ability to even access it in times of interruption.  I am not sure that many people even realize how important AWS, Azure, Google Cloud have become to their way of life or their livelihoods. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2019, 06:39:25 AM
Not only can't end users fix their phone,  I couldn't get my service provider to fix a small bug that prevented me from receiving pictures with texts.  I had to turn off wifi and reboot to get them.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2019, 07:00:02 AM
Even if you know how to fix a lot of stuff, the deeper layers are tough to get to. It's actually been true for a very long time--centuries, actually. Every technically complex tool we use is built layer on layer. Who writes the microcode that the assembly layer sits on? Most programming effort is at a very high level of abstraction. The overwhelming majority of people couldn't fix a hammer, don't know how a zipper works and how to fix it, never mind how to make the teeth, clamp them onto fabric, make and add the slider, etc, etc.

I have a book called "Build your own machine shop" that details how to start with a stack of firebricks and sandcast your own stuff, then build a lathe and use that to build a milling machine. Great book, I read it for fun but I saved it in case I went completely nuts in my retirement and wanted to do something completely quixotic.

I might be there, my motorhome project is pretty nutty. And my reason for using MQQT instead of the cloud and building my own stuff instead of readily available automation products is to avoid being cloud-connected--the easiest way to do the project. Of course, I can connect MQQT to the cloud and be able to turn on the air conditioner in my Moho from my smartphone in Maui.

If you want to see what is actually feasible in the world, and how it works, look at the new Chinese Tesla gigafactory. It was a mudhole last year. It's nearly done and ready to make cars and batteries. Freaky.

I do fix my own phones and computers--sort of. That is, I can take them apart, buy components, and replace them. The iPad Diane dropped is at my shop with it's LCD screen and touch glass ripped off, waiting for delivery of the replacement. I have several microscopes and SMD rework stations so I can do micro soldering. It's probably less a matter of practicality than stubbornness. Plus I'm really hard on gear so I better be able to fix it. Or maybe I'm careless with it because I know I can fix it.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 13, 2019, 09:06:38 AM
I’m coming around...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2019, 09:11:45 AM
Drive one, preferably a model S, though the Model 3 is remarkable. Model X is just weird.

It's an eye-opener.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on September 13, 2019, 01:05:39 PM
Yep I've tipped over. Some milestones:
Jay Leno of all people stating there’s no reason not to have full electric.
My averaging $506 monthly on gas alone.
This thread… including mention of the apparently excellent build quality of Teslas.
An article extolling the driving experience of the Tesla 3 over the BMW 3. (grain of salt, but whatevs)

I do have an office mate with a Tesla S that I will drive. Interesting about her, her husband is a car guy who had been waiting for a special order BMW M2.  It arrived. She drove it to work one day, but much prefers her self driving Tesla over the Bimmer because the latter “requires so much attention be paid while driving”  : )  or maybe : (   … not sure which…. But it does illustrate one kind of consumer preference.   

But more fundamentally I’ve stopped even idly daydreaming about ICE cars… meaning no more “Oh I wonder what the Jag SUV handles like…” , instead, its “oh that’s right… it’s still gas…”
I saw a Shell gasoline TV commercial last night and just saw an anachronism.   Now I’m  just waiting I suppose, for a manly enough EV truck or SUV.  (You now, ‘cuz I’m so manly  : )  with AWD.  Till then I’ll drive my body on frame, V8 SUV Toyota product which probably has an infinite number of miles left in it.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: anonsurfer on September 14, 2019, 01:09:14 PM
Drive one ....

It's an eye-opener.

I'm with PB.  At this time I think Tesla is the best EV option.   Nothing else comes close right now.   

1. 330 miles of range (LR RWD)
2. Super efficient (I avg 4.4 miles per kWh)
3. Low fuel cost ($2.00 per 100 miles)
4. Zero emissions
5. Very quick
6. Access to Supercharger network
7. Over the air updates

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 14, 2019, 04:39:31 PM
I don't think the efficiency issue comes home until you either spend some time with a Tesla or do a little physics. A Tesla 100D long range like Diane's has a 100KW battery. That's roughly equivalent to three gallons of gasoline. Which means if a Tesla was an internal combustion engine car it would be getting 120 miles per gallon carrying five passengers and all their stuff and still be able to out accelerate any supercar.

I still hear that dumb rap about EV batteries polluting more than ICE's and being powered by coal plants. It's too stupid to respond to, pure propaganda that people would have to just gulp down without examining even the most obvious points, never mind researching any aspect.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 25, 2019, 08:16:05 AM
Amazon was pretty clear with its intentions for Rivian but 100,000 delivery trucks?  That is a big order.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/rivian-just-got-a-huuuge-order-for-its-electric-delivery-trucks-ar186626.html

(https://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201909/rivian-just-got-a-hu-1_1600x0w.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on September 25, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
It's just missing some custom Art Deco trim above the windshield ;)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 25, 2019, 12:20:09 PM
I could fix that for them...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: supdiscobay on September 25, 2019, 10:53:10 PM
So its been one year since I got the model 3.  $57k at that time, and we thought we would only drive it locally and maybe put 10k miles on it.  Well 22k miles later, after one year, and no loss in battery capacity.  You will never have more fun driving a car than this.  (well maybe with a p100d)  A good friend was about to spend $62k on a new 5 series BMW.  It was a beautiful car.  We spent less than an hour driving around in my model 3 and he put in an order for a dual motor performance version, that cost him $78k.  Looking forward to getting in that when it comes.
I save at least $6,000 a year in gas now, and have way more fun driving.  When the Rivian comes out, we are selling our 2016 Chevy Silverado and going 100% electric.  Also just ordered the Tesla solar panels for our roof.  $16,000 after tax credit and break even is 5.5 years out.  Am I crazy? Maybe, but even if the economics of electric vehicles doesn't  work out.  They are just way more fun to drive. 
If you haven't driven one, you are missing out.
I have taken it several times to the Sacramento Drag strip.  With a 95% charge I can run 13.2's all day and dominate the bracket class.  I have a 71 Mustang that runs mid 8 second quarter mile times, but goes on a trailer.  Its fun, but it basically cost the same as the model 3, and the model 3 has a lot more round wins than the Mustang.
The future of Muscle Cars is silent but deadly.  Look at the Rivian Truck, 756 HorsePower.  Depending on the weight, that should propel that truck to 11 second 1/4 mile times. And it can tow 11,000 lbs.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 26, 2019, 06:37:29 PM
Yup, everyone that has a pocket full of oil company propaganda as talking points pretty much shuts up after they drive one--not because they've done enough research to realize how much bullshit they've been swallowing, but for one simple reason--so much fun.

My wife has owned a lot of nice cars, like everyone else I know who has one, she considers her Tesla to be the best car she's ever owned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 29, 2019, 07:51:12 PM
Diane's grocery-getter long-range (335 miles) P100D has 746 horsepower and 743 foot-pounds of torque. That's insane. My Turbo F350 Diesel is weenie by comparison.  When I floor her Tesla with passengers in the car they scream for as long as I hold the pedal down. No smoking tires, not even a squeak, just noisy people in the back.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on September 29, 2019, 11:17:15 PM
This thread has really made me think about my next vehicle. We have a 2009 Mazda 5 and a 2011 Mazda 3. We will probably have the Mazda 3 for a number of years yet, as it’s my wife’s car and she doesn’t put much mileage on it. We had been thinking of getting rid of the Mazda 5 and were initially thinking about maybe a Mazda 9, or Honda Pilot or maybe a Toyota Highlander. Something along those lines. But this thread, and the information provided and opinions expressed has really opened my eyes. We have decided for right now we are going to keep the Mazda 5 a little longer as it still has some good life left in it. But when the time comes, we are going to take a good, hard look at electrical. I really do like the look of that Rivian SUV. And if there is going to be a swing to electrical cars on any kind of large scale, why put out all that money on an internal combustion engine. Just seems like it makes less and less sense to do so.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on September 30, 2019, 03:29:19 AM
much as id like some sort of van to just chuck bikes boards gear into, seems best move is to wait

only problem is that older cities with high rates of street parking will remain a challenge long after electric is the obvious approach for most of the country

i usually park my cars in a random street spot--no outlet available
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 30, 2019, 07:23:11 AM
Yes, issues like that will take a longer to solve. With the newest 250KW per hour superchargers you can pick up 50KWH in twelve minutes, that's enough to go 150 miles. But superchargers need to be as convenient as gas stations, which is certainly feasible. The logistics and cost of transporting gasoline to fill storage tanks is much more burdensome than running a wire, but it takes time for infrastructure to change.

It will be interesting to see how the Maxell acquisition plays out for Tesla. The dry Lithium batteries Maxell developed have both higher storage capacity per unit volume but also could more than double recharge rate. DC to DC charging could wind up being limited by wire size.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 30, 2019, 07:31:49 AM
There was some talk a while back about eventually building inductive charging roads.  Now that would be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 15, 2019, 11:20:02 AM
Here's a retrofit option. Crated electric motors, but only works with manual tranny's. May need a center force clutch and some other high performance drive train components.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/10/14/electric-gt-crate-motor-ev-conversions/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 15, 2019, 05:42:28 PM
That's pretty cool. I was planning something similar with my eTR3 before I pulled the plug so to speak. Of course, making a dummy version of a 4 cylinder brit motor is a lot simpler-- an aluminum box with a little deco. I might still do it if I finish everything else. Look for it in 2050.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on October 18, 2019, 03:04:41 PM
Infrastructure bump:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a29501539/ford-charging-network/

“Ford Is Planning a Huge North American Electric Charging Network
Dwarfing Tesla's and any electric vehicle will be able to use it, the company says.”
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on October 18, 2019, 03:39:50 PM
This commitment by Ford is welcomed. I am hoping that an enterprising company will start electrifying existing gas stations and smooth the bumps during the transition to electric. We have placed an order for an eKona by Hyundai. With any luck the delivery will be in the spring of 2020. We will keep our CX5 until I can  convince my better half that I need a Tesla Y.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on October 18, 2019, 04:17:10 PM
^ Bob, man, be reasonable, you need a Tesla pickup truck...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: rbgar on October 18, 2019, 05:21:23 PM
https://images.app.goo.gl/hwzSgnqPSnqtcWaR8

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on October 18, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Perhaps a bit more futuristic!

https://images.app.goo.gl/KKU43JSRYfWQ6NSB7
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on November 04, 2019, 10:47:12 PM
A friend of a friend has a Tesla and loves her car. However, she recently took her car on a cold weather trip and had a very unpleasant experience. I don’t know all the details, but my friend told me the battery was losing its’ charge very quickly. Apparently they very nearly didn’t make their destination. She said the car handled really well in the snow, but the battery drain was significant.

I did a bit of looking online and found this (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html). It says in 20 degree weather (Farenheit), when using climate control, electric vehicles will lose an average of 41 percent of their range. Apparently Tesla disputes these findings, but from what my friend said, this sounds pretty accurate.

I suppose one could argue that the Tesla owner (my friends’ friend) should have known about this ahead of time, but this sounds like it could possibly be a pretty serious limitation to electric cars, at least in colder climates.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 05, 2019, 03:10:03 AM
it is a fact that batteries dont like cold
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 05, 2019, 07:10:07 AM
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 05, 2019, 07:45:31 AM
well explained---thx
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on November 05, 2019, 07:59:09 AM
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.

Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 07, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
We will get a look at the upcoming Tesla truck soon, assuming he means Nov 21st 2019.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951616/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-reveal
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 08, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
The teaser image resembles a traditional, (long) pick-up truck hood, but I will be highly disappointed if it is not a cab-forward design...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 08, 2019, 09:59:12 AM
Tesla loves frunks. I'd be surprised if it didn't have one. In theory, they sound great, in practice, I've never used it. I don't think Diane has either. A standard model S has so much room in the back that we just never think to use it. There's an "under trunk" in the back that I've also never used. Every so often I lift it up and say "oh, yeah, that's what that is" and then close it and forget about it. Insane amount of cargo space for a five passenger luxury sedan.

I'd preorder the pickup sight unseen with max everything if they'd let me. I know that makes me sound like a fanboy, but it's exactly what I wanted when I paid 60K for my Ford F350. I could avoid my project to make a rat Tesla Model S surfwagon. $40K more (got to be at least $100K for the 500 mile version) to never stop at a gas station again, tow any load I could ever imagine, carry all my shit and blow the doors off Porches? I'm in.

I've been playing with their battery modules from a wrecked 100D for six months now, and it's a constant source of inspiration. My plan for the spring is to buy one or two wrecked Tesla Model S's and a roof full of PV if power-hungry Californians don't drive the price to the stratosphere.  I'd love to use the model 3 packs, but no one has been able to reverse engineer the BMS system yet to build massive powerwall systems. One of the sharpest and most experienced guys in that biz calls the Model 3 BMS system "witchcraft".

Ready for the zombie apocalypse. I've calculated loads at my shop. With the PV system I plan, and even just 100KWH of storage I can run my shop and charge one Tesla Model S or maybe the truck. With 200 KWH of storage and a little more PV I can charge two Teslas, and switch my heating and cooling for the entire shop to heat pumps with lots of room to spare. I might get sensible and do the single powerwall, but what's the fun in that? At current prices, it's about a 20-year payback (I'll be 92 and senile, so I won't be able to appreciate the benefit), and that's with me doing most of the work and building powerwalls for somewhere in the range of $10K each, including car, housing, BMS and inverters. I'll get a lot of other good stuff out of the cars but the market for Tesla bits sucks. Most of them are under some form of warranty and there is so little that goes wrong that there just isn't much of a market. Maybe I'll drop a Tesla motor in the dunebuggy. The powerwalls would be more than $100K each from the sources I know about, but I don't have to make a profit, market and support the things. Big advantage of not caring about making a biz out of it. Living in the Pacific Northwest makes solar and batteries more of a labor of exploration than a rational choice. Almost anywhere else it turns around pretty quickly, in Maui my system paid itself off in 6+ years, though it's grid-tied with no powerwall. But certainly, as a lot of Californians have recently discovered, "God bless the chile what's got his own".

I'm also going to build an inverter TIG welder with one module. 56 pounds, 7.14KWH. I tested it with a simplified two-module rig running DC and I could pull 300 amps at 46 V to weld some 5/8" steel plate and hardly warmed the modules. No surprise, they often pull 1200Amps in the cars at full acceleration but still, there was less than two degrees change on the internal thermocouples. I need AC for aluminum and I want variable frequency, pulsing, adjustable waveform and electrode cleaning/penetration bias, so I'll have to mash it up with a standard TIG inverter. But a 70-pound full-featured 250 amp portable TIG would be a big deal for me. My old 250 amp transformer TIG takes a hefty forklift to lift it.

As I said, lots of inspiration in this tech.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: SUPJorge on November 11, 2019, 06:49:03 AM
Has anyone heard anything about this Polestar 2? 
https://www.polestar.com/us/cars/polestar-2
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 08:33:50 AM
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 11, 2019, 08:50:27 AM
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.

Wouldn't it be a tighter comparison to the upcoming model Y with Dual motors?  They are saying $45,000 for a later release base model.

This looks more like a crossover style thing, but It would have been awesome as a wagon. 

It is a handsome vehicle.  In terms of yeeeow appeal, Tesla has been pretty lackluster with the S being the exception.  It will be interesting to see if Musk really does break loose a little on the truck.  I hope so!

(https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Polestar_2_022.jpg?w=1390&crop=1)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 10:41:35 AM
Well, it's face certainly looks happy.

I agree that the 3 is not the coolest looking car ever, and the Y looks like a fat 3. The X is stupid. The two style winners are the S and the Roadster. Right now though, the names of the game are: How many 3's can they sell in China (millions?), when will they build batteries there (very fucking soon) and will they be Maxell dry tech (Yes--a big deal--far more production in less space with no drying ovens), and what kind of preorders do they get from the pickup truck. If the preorder is huge it may stop Ford, and to a lesser degree GM and Dodge truck sales in their tracks.

The geezers on the Autoweek streaming show think the traditional truck buyers won't go for them, it will be new buyers. That means the traditional buyers will be all over these things since these people have been consistently and dependably wrong.

It's going to get weird.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 11, 2019, 11:15:15 AM
It's really interesting to me that the average pickup truck in commercial use actually averages less than 15,000 miles per year, or 60 miles per day for 250 working days, but the reliability rates for the trucks is really poor (less than 60 days per unscheduled repair). In general, that's thought to be mostly because of how often the trucks are started and stopped. I think those truck owners would be well served with a short range, high reliability, high torque, high towing capacity truck that they can charge overnight in the shop. I assume most of them can use a four-function calculator. I fail to see why they wouldn't be the target. I think the Autoweek folks think they're yahoos that are wedded to an F150. I'm sure lots of them are, but I'm also sure most of them are business people who understand how expensive their work trucks really are.

The 450-500 mile range of the super long-range version should be of little interest. What will probably be of great interest is a 10KW (or more) inverter built into the thing that can power your Jobsite or even your shop, for a day or a week depending on your battery size with no gas, no noise, no exhaust. I do hate portable generators with a passion though I own several.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 12, 2019, 02:19:14 PM
As much as I want a Tesla Pickup, I do realize that the US car market doesn't really matter. The number of cars and trucks sold per year in the USA has been flat or declining for many years--about 50 years in fact, peaking around 1973 at somewhere around 11.4 million cars. In 2018 passenger car sales hit a new low--about 5.3 million cars, but 17 million cars and light trucks total, so yeah, a Tesla truck and probably a truck-based SUV, will be a big deal.

But the model 3 and Y in China is infinitely more important. 28 million cars were sold in China last year, up from 6 million in 2000--their new car sales is growing three times faster than any other country in the world. Tesla is the only car company in China allowed to operate without surrendering it's IP, the only car company allowed to operate without the Chinese subsidiary 51 percent owned by an existing Chinese company--Tesla owns 100 percent of its Chinese subsidiary. They are in a free-trade zone of Shanghai, so there is a chance China might insist on the 25 percent Tariff (or some lower number) for the cars manufactured there, but my guess is that if there is any tariff, it will be much reduced. China intends to own the electric car industry, and Tesla is how they plan to do it.  Tesla will be able to sell every car it can crank out in China, and every car and truck it can make in the USA. For years.

You might wonder why the Y will be Y. S3XY. Really. Geeks are not known for mature puns.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 15, 2019, 04:27:03 AM
It would be awesome if something like this made it to market.  https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/neuron-evs-t-one-torque-trucks-tesla-2880535/

I am hoping that the Tesla is similar and has some full sized bed options.  0-60 in 3 seconds?  OK, but fully assembled foil boards.  Oh, yeah.

(https://robbreportedit.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/neurontruck02.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 22, 2019, 12:00:48 AM
Maybe...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2019, 01:41:26 AM
I wanted to love it but, yuck.  Kind of like a Delorean and an El Camino had an ugly kid.  If you have a few years (end of 2021?) and want one you can order now https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck.

(https://www.tesla.com/xNVh4yUEc3B9/02_Desktop.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 22, 2019, 03:31:03 AM
why shatter-proof glass?

tempered laminated safety glass seems sufficient
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 22, 2019, 08:38:58 AM
If nothing else, it certainly makes the model x look highly functional by comparison...
On a positive note, it could be just the thing for trophy truck racing.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: exiled on November 22, 2019, 08:42:47 AM
Its like they rendered it on my old Nintendo 64.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 22, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
It is sort of frugly but clearly not designed by a surfer. Where exactly are our boards suppose to go?

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 22, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
I’m curious how the view out is. High belt lines tend to give me a claustrophobic feel... possibly cured here by some version of the sky roof glass.
I wonder if a covered version SUV will follow. Much as I like a good truck, rainy Seattle just means half your vehicle is unusable much of the time.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2019, 07:22:53 PM
I put my order in. I want the three motor version, so I'm not likely to see anything until 2022. Fuck. Oh well. Cold rolled stainless exoskeleton? Perfect.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2019, 11:05:52 PM
After reading a few comments on the truck on Facebook I'm convinced that people just want to cling to the familiar. There is no reason that an electric truck should look like an internal combustion-engined truck. I'm kind of disappointed that it looks as conventional as it does. Why is the nose blunt? That has to be some reach back to conventional styling. There's no engine or radiator in there. No need for a grill. Why is the bed so high? What's under there? There's no driveshaft, no transfer case and transmission. I was hoping for a bed you could walk onto, that could be raised for ground clearance when you want, but down low for loading.

As it is, I think it will be a revolutionary truck, with remarkable capabilities. With it's big battery pack and a 110/220V inverter (more than 10KW from what I've heard) it can literally power a house. The standard Tesla battery is 300V, powering an inverter from the drive battery is highly effective. The trend for whole-home inverters is split phase 220V output with 300+ VDC input. Much smaller conductors, lighter weight and even greater efficiency.

I don't want to wait two years though. I guess I'll still have to build the rat rod model S. If you think the truck is fugly, stay tuned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 23, 2019, 05:04:44 AM
LOL

can it please not look like the f18?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 23, 2019, 07:29:50 AM
I too put a $100.00 refundable deposit on the   Dual Motor one .

Hey Pono, do you really think your build will be complete in less than 2 years?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 23, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 23, 2019, 07:34:41 PM
Obviously Elon and his design team don't surf...... or actually use a truck for what a truck is used for. It's just an SUV.

Where's the rack?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2019, 02:00:17 AM
It is gitchy and nonsensical to base a design on movie vehicles from the 70's and 80's.  Musk had said that his design cues had come from the Lotus Esprit from the Spy Who Loved Me and from Blade Runner but Total Recall and Back to the Future are pretty obvious as well. It would be one thing if he had borrowed a little flavor and improved on it but this takes that already silly starting point and worsens it. 

The specs are great as expected but there is/will be plenty of competition there from all sides. It is baffling why Musk would choose to limit the appeal so much.  The design of this thing clearly puts limits on its function and apparently for the sake of some misguided aesthetic.  I am sure it will appeal to a few but it leaves the majority of that huge segment wide open.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: krash on November 24, 2019, 06:54:31 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

I really like the break-prof windows...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 24, 2019, 11:50:46 AM
The three-section ramp tailgate is awesome, though it looks like it's just a rendering so far. That would take quite a bit of engineering to make it work with any serious load weight. I should make a manual version of those for my F350 though it would probably need to be five sections to not be as steep as a cow's face. I'm more than a bit tired of crawling up onto the tailgate.

Looks like ground clearance can be varied from 10 to 18 inches. Six to 18 would be mo'bettah. I'd love a bed that could be stepped into without a ladder.

Elon doesn't seem to care much about racks. Too bad. The biggest problem with a Model X is no rack possible. A model X with door like a Cienna and metal roof with rack rails would be a fine vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 25, 2019, 12:46:11 PM
Even though its a little homely, I kind of see it as the natural evolution of my car life from the complex to the simple... from american cars I had to work on myself as a kid, to Euro cars for which I had to pay mechanics, to Toyota (but still ICE) products, to now bullet proof, no paint, electric transport with no moving parts... Now, how to reconcile my "not buy new cars' rule.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 25, 2019, 05:34:58 PM
https://youtu.be/464puoD09dM

Go ahead.... hit it with a sledge hammer..

For all the construction workers and surfers that wear designer leather jackets ::)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on November 25, 2019, 10:03:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_QtnMt0X0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_QtnMt0X0)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 26, 2019, 03:53:23 AM
Hah!  This will be the norm for all electric trucks.  Here is Ford's response https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+truck&oq=tesla&aqs=chrome.2.69i60j69i57j0l6.7208j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 .  The real test will be the upcoming 4 motor Rivian (4 in all models) or Electric F-150. Both are expected before the Cybertruck. 

I am all for futuristic but I don't relate to a dystopian or post apocalyptic future where we have somehow lost the capability to curve metal into an appealing form.  Green, 9mm, Mad Max.  Weird blend.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 26, 2019, 08:05:15 AM
"Sledgehammer impact on door cracked base of glass, which is why steel ball didn't bounce off," Musk tweeted

While that makes perfect sense, it also demonstrates that it didn't really pass the sledge test either. 

So the take-away is, don't bring a knife to a gun fight, what you really want is your sledgehammer.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 26, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
It is quite amazing the how the world is shocked that when someone throws a steel ball at a car window, it actually breaks. Yet they're pretty ho-hum about a truck beating a Porsche 911 in a drag race.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 26, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
There is always someone faster...love this clip

https://youtu.be/S7m3xyW5hbE?t=591
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 10:08:42 AM
So here's the thing that may escape casual looks at this truck. It's cheap to build. No frame, no paint, no stamping. It really is Origami. The stamping equipment that makes the pretty curves of normal cars and trucks is eye-wateringly expensive and wears out relatively quickly, requiring rework or replacement to keep making parts that fit. If you tried to stamp stainless of any thickness it would get ridiculously expensive. DeLoreans used thin stainless and minimal stamping and still had huge fit and finish issues from metal hysteresis and die wear. This design is as repeatable as folds in paper. It's made with a score and bend tech from flat panels. If they did it right (and why not) it's a minimum number of parts and a lot fewer fasteners--probably a welded unibody. Unibody construction with regular steel and paint is justifiably despised in the truck world. Bang things around and you knock the protective coatings off and the rust monster attacks. This is 301 stainless. Salt water spray does nothing. fewer fasteners means less potential for galvanic corrosion. If you manage to scratch up the finish you can sand or scotchbrite it back to pretty. My kind of truck.

You also can't make curved windows with armor glass (like the glass on your cellphone). It doesn't bend well because of the high internal stress and if you heat it up enough to bend you relieve some of the stress and weaken the glass. So flat windows. Which are a lot cheaper to make and easier to fit. The design palette suits the function and the materials. It has to look the way it does to be built this way.

The wing sides that make people gag are structural. They dramatically increase the overall rigidity without adding weight. And since the integrated tonneau runs along the top of the wing, will increase the height of what can be carried, covered, and secured.

I got a real kick out of people saying there are no tiedowns. See those stylish lines in the truck bed and sides? They're keyhole slots. The entire bed is one huge tiedown. And yes, you could use them to mount a rack.

My aluminum bodied F350 had less than 500 miles on it when I nudged a plastic trash bin out of my way and put a long dent in the soft aluminum door skin. I could nudge a dumpster out of the way with this thing.

Unibody means lots of room inside--both side to side and headroom. This thing seats six big guys with lots of head clearance and easy access to even the rear middle seat. The front middle seat converts to a huge console. People who got test rides said the interior size seemed like some kind of magic trick.

A few people seem to have figured out that this could be pretty cool. More than 200,000 preorders as of the 24th. Sure, it's only a hundred bucks instead of a thousand, but 200,000 people have said they want one. 200K times 50K is $10 Billion. That's ten percent of the total pickup truck market share. Two days after finally showing a prototype that is universally reviled on social media.

I'd wager if Tesla did a full court press and got this thing out before I turn 75 that even Bubba would buy it once he figured out that it will blow the doors off a Porsche and crawl over logs twice as high as his F150 will. And he'll never, ever have to go to a gas station again--not even to put air in the tires. the onboard compressor will do that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
There is always someone faster...love this clip

https://youtu.be/S7m3xyW5hbE?t=591

That was fun.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 26, 2019, 11:27:51 AM

... or maybe I'll just feed my soul with a '69 Chevelle...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 26, 2019, 06:56:45 PM
compelling

a big culture shock for me is that the thing is a damned big truck, yet itll blow doors off vettes and porsches

that's a lotta vehicle going 60mph in 3 seconds!

i am sure it will have amazing monster brakes--suspension/steering for that matter too

and yes, thou shalt not buy any combustion-powered devices again---if there isnt a superior electric-powered version of whatever you want, wait---there will be shortly

lawn tractors---atv's---dirt bikes---chain saws---cars---trucks--snow blowers

i am down to 2 2019 subaru foresters, so i am good car-wise for a while---and i yearn for more of a van format---but next transport vehicle will certainly be electric

i want to say i dont need something so big--but the problem i have with big is mostly alleviated by the superior efficiency of electric---so "big" is a concept that will adjust

still no facilities for nyc residents, tho im sure there will be chargers in the most expensive garages--for an add'l charge--those garage spaces already price up to >$1000 per month---for the oligarchs!! proles like me cant get no juice
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 26, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
And now back to actual Surf Vehicles. 2020 US release confirmed. I'll get out with a bunch of my friends in wetsuits and hit it with a paddle ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/microbus

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 26, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
EV trucks have about a thousand or more horsepower in brakes--before the pads hit the disk. Dynamic braking. When they start using ultracapacitors for dynamic braking all that power will make it's way back into the battery. As it is a fair amount does, but hard sustained braking can exceed the charge rate limits of the battery. Keeping a 14,500-pound trailer under control down the continental divide will mostly charge the battery. No friction brakes involved, unless someone does somthing dramatic in front of you and you need to completely stop.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 27, 2019, 01:50:04 AM
And now back to actual Surf Vehicles. 2020 US release confirmed. I'll get out with a bunch of my friends in wetsuits and hit it with a paddle ;D
https://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/microbus

2020 would be awesome (link says 2022).  Don't let your friends throw their balls at the windows.

Here is an interesting link about trucks and what production goals and capacity are looking like from various brands.  Regardless of production start dates it looks like most of us on these lists will have long waits after production starts.  The article questions if the demand is there but I don't question that at all.  It seems like there is an abundance of ready and willing buyers just waiting for trucks, real SUV's or minivans to come available.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-electric-trucks/eight-electric-pickup-truck-manufacturers-to-load-up-u-s-market-by-2021-idUSKBN1XZ1W7
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: 1tuberider on November 27, 2019, 05:27:10 AM
I just picked up a new volt for 20k after tax credits. May take a little conversion
for surf vehicle. I also have a bolt. Its a great car but range is limiting. I prefer the
ICE as a backup. Went to Portland last weekend which is something a bolt with 280 mile range would take
a while to do. Not interested in waiting for recharge.

The volt covers my local needs with electricity and my travel needs with fuel. I just gotta
figure a rack system but the rear door opens and my board should fit. I don't care as I live
most the year at the beach.

My experience with electric cars is their value drops faster than your principle reduction of a monthly payment.
This makes for a buying opportunity for a great used electric vehicle. I see used volts for 10K. That should
pay for its self with fuel savings.

I would love the VW van, I had one for many years. I would not love the hole in the wallet and
rapid depreciation.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on November 27, 2019, 06:51:13 AM
I get the sense that this window of opportunity to buy used EV's cheap will be short lived as the observed longevity of EV's climb.   So get 'em while they're hot!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 27, 2019, 08:47:20 AM
The Volt is a great car, we have one in Maui, and the battery will last much longer than any of the critics claim. My plan for this summer is to pick up a used Tesla Model S 100D, something after 2016, which is also a bargain. 2021 or 2 seems like a long time to wait but full production capability for the Truck is going to take quite a while. No one has done production of a vehicle built this way yet, so there's a lot to be learned.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 27, 2019, 09:31:43 AM
I don't mind the two year wait for my cyber-truck. I think its going to take me that long to convince my wife I really need a truck that big to replace my 4runner, which she thinks is monster big.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 27, 2019, 07:27:57 PM
The step-in height of the front seats (head clearance) is 75 inches. I'll be able to get in without ducking or folding. One of the best things about a pickmeup truck. No bending. I had to do the limbo to get into Diane's Boxster.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:28:20 AM
I had missed it but Ford just announced their 2020 all electric Mustang Mach-E SUV on the 17th.  They think they can produce 50,000 next year.  0-60 in, yup, a now familiar 3.5 seconds.  Range at 300 miles, options starting at 40 K before tax credit.  Ford claims it will have the largest charging network in the United States—even larger than Tesla. Its network will include 12,000 charging stations with a total of 35,000 stations in the U.S. and some parts of Canada.

Configure here: https://www.ford.com/buy/mach-e/build-and-price.html#/colour?series=ACMRJ_VS-LE&powertrain=DR--F_EN-EJ_HTHAD_TR-WA&paint=PN4HJ

Fantastic looking vehicle but it looks tough to rack so I am not sure that it is an SUV (or a Mustang?).  They have sold out of their First Edition.  Ford is also doing a Full sized SUV branded Lincoln on the Rivian Skateboard chassis.  Things are heating up.

(https://robbreportedit.files.wordpress.com/2019/11/mustang-mach-e-07.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 28, 2019, 10:00:08 AM
Looks like a Model S with a Ford badge on it. One of the serious challenges of building a EV that looks different is aerodynamics--design by wind tunnel. Since they don't need to reject 70 percent of the power generated as heat an EV can have a truly aero-efficient nose. And they need to. That's the dumbass thing about the Rivian truck--it has a standard truck look with a hood area to hold the engine they don't have and a nose with the aero of a garage door to house the radiator it doesn't have. A Tesla Model S long range can do 370 miles from a 100KWH battery. That's the energy equivalent of 2.7 gallons of gasoline. You don't do 137 MPG pushing a garage door down the highway even at 55mph.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 10:34:57 AM
It is those 911 side windows.  That basic shape has been pirated all around.  This new Ford has a lot of 911 in it.  Maybe more than the Taycan. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 28, 2019, 11:56:33 AM
Where is the there any "Mustang" in the SUV. Ford can only sell two vehicles, 150 trucks and Mustangs.  They can't call their new SUV a 150, so they are calling it Mustang.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:20:01 PM
Ford can only sell two vehicles, 150 trucks and Mustangs.

Check this out: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/usa/2018-full-year-usa-ford-sales-americas-favorite-car-brand/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 28, 2019, 02:30:10 PM
interesting, Mustang dropped 43% this year.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2019, 02:48:33 PM
That's the dumbass thing about the Rivian truck--it has a standard truck look with a hood area to hold the engine they don't have and a nose with the aero of a garage door to house the radiator it doesn't have. A Tesla Model S long range can do 370 miles from a 100KWH battery. That's the energy equivalent of 2.7 gallons of gasoline. You don't do 137 MPG pushing a garage door down the highway even at 55mph.

That is a big part of what Musk missed.  It seems like he isn't a truck guy :).  Rivian designed their Truck with their user in mind.  They have a super cool and modular (included) rack system that mounts tool free to the roof, the rails and the bed.  Reposition, extend or add to it.  That is normal use for trucks.  Bolt big racks to them and load them up.  The racks stay on.  That isn't aerodynamically ideal but it is reality for this vehicle type.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 29, 2019, 04:08:48 AM
interesting, Mustang dropped 43% this year.

That is for the quarter.  The year for Mustangs was down but by 7%.  This is pretty interesting because all Ford "Cars" were down 17%.  It is telling because of the 2.4 Million vehicles Ford sold only 457,000 were cars and of those only 76,000 were mustangs.  Ford sells almost twice as many SUV's as cars and almost 3 times as many Trucks (1,140,000/yr) and both of those categories are growing.  So they are really trying to keep the Mustang name alive with this move.  People have responded very well to the vehicle but not so much to the branding.  It is a little weird.

Here is an interesting poll about the Mach E vs the Tesla Y https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidundercoffler/2019/11/22/consumers-split-on-tesla-model-y-vs-ford-mach-e/#22dde3987dd8

We surveyed just over 1,000 people, and the results were essentially a draw: 51 percent of respondents said they would choose the Mustang Mach-E, 49 percent said they would choose the Model Y.

We then asked people to choose three reasons why they chose the vehicle that they did.

Those who preferred the Ford cited the following reasons:

Prefer/trust Ford more
The Mach-E’s exterior styling
Ford’s established dealer and service network
The Mach-E’s expected reliability
Concerns about Tesla’s future

It’s interesting that on this list is Ford’s dealer and service network — a key advantage legacy automakers have over Tesla, which is currently struggling with long delays for parts and service at their service centers nationwide. Ford says it has certified more than 2,100 of its dealers to sell and service the Mach-E.

Those respondents who said they’d choose the Tesla Model Y cited the following reasons for doing so:

Prefer/trust Tesla more
Expected reliability
The Model Y’s expected performance
Tesla’s Supercharging network
Dislike of the Ford brand

Key among consumers’ reasons for choosing the Model Y is Tesla’s Supercharging network. While Ford has stitched together its own network of charging stations from a variety of existing services, it’s still not as robust as Tesla’s setup.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: RideTheGlide on November 29, 2019, 04:23:51 AM
Is there no interoperabillity of charging stations in the networks? When parking lots put in charging stations, isn't it just one kind for all? I don't have to look for an in network station for Hyundai s to fill my car with gas. I know the deal about it being free for some Teslas and get they they need to go to a Tesla charging station for that, but it seems like any electric should be able to pay at different stations. Or maybe that is an ideal not currently being achieved.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2019, 06:47:46 PM
The underlying problem is that the installed base of chargers (other than Tesla Superchargers) are very slow chargers. It's easy to put in a low power charger, most people who have an EV have one in their garage. 220V @ 30 amps = 6600 watts is fine for overnight, not fine for topping off during a trip. A full charge for a 100KWH battery is 15 hours. Even people with a 100KWH Tesla generally only charge to 85 percent and probably discharge to 20 percent, so the time to charge is more like nione hours, but still...

Ford's cobbled together network is basically slow chargers. You won't use them for distance travel.

Teslas superchargers are 480VDC chargers that directly connect to the cars 400V battery and the charge at rates from 72‒250 kW depending on when the charger was installed or upgraded and some limitations on older cars. A full charge is less than half hour on the new ones, the more likely 20 percent to 85 percent is about 12 minutes.

Other carmakers have a lot of catching up to do. Currently available competing cars have less range than a 2012 Model S. Still, Musk always said his intent was to spur the adoption of EVs. I think that's working.

You can still watch the fossils on Autoweek proclaiming that no one will ever make money building electric cars. It's kind of funny.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: exiled on November 29, 2019, 08:36:42 PM
If I only need about 100 miles of daily range tops, 50 on average, what is my best cheap option right now? 70k isn't in the cards any time soon.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2019, 11:24:31 PM
Take a look at used Teslas--I plan to buy one myself in the spring. Even a 2012 still has lots of life in the battery, but the best value with most features are 2016 and newer. The older Teslas depreciate like iPhones. You can get a car that cost $120K new with low mileage and great condition for about $45K, and if you don't care about the autodrive you can get one down to about $30K. A lot of car for the money and anything prior to 2017 has free supercharging for the life of the car. I doubt they'll depreciate much more than that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 30, 2019, 03:15:56 AM
Is there no interoperabillity of charging stations in the networks? When parking lots put in charging stations, isn't it just one kind for all? I don't have to look for an in network station for Hyundai s to fill my car with gas. I know the deal about it being free for some Teslas and get they they need to go to a Tesla charging station for that, but it seems like any electric should be able to pay at different stations. Or maybe that is an ideal not currently being achieved.

Snipped from the article below:  Vehicles from other automakers will also be able to use the stations in Ford's network, unlike in the Supercharger network, which is available only to Tesla customers.

Here are the specifics of what Ford is calling their FordPass charging network.  https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-fordpass-charging-network-tesla-supercharger-electric-car-charging-2019-10 . 


Ford announced on Thursday it is giving electric-vehicle customers two years of free access to over 12,000 charging stations in North America with over 35,000 plugs.

The FordPass Charging Network will also include DC fast-charging stations from Electrify America that will allow for a vehicle to charge from 10% to 80% in 45 minutes. Ford did not specify the number of plugs in the network that will have fast-charging capability.  Here is the current map of stations from Electrify America:  https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpqfs0PyR5gIVMhh9Ch239gjxEAAYASABEgKjyfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Through the FordPass Charging Network, Ford's electric-vehicle customers will for two years have free access to more charging stations than are included in Tesla's Supercharger network (which has 1,636 stations and 14,497 plugs in North America).


Here is an article on the self-chargers that Ford is includig with all Mach E's (and we could probably assume the upcoming trucks as well) https://electrek.co/2019/11/18/ford-mustang-mach-e-home-charging-on-par-with-tesla/ . Ford came to play.

Last month we reviewed the portable charging cords OEMs provide with their North American electric vehicles, and the results were wild.  We gave Tesla’s Gen2 UMC an A+, Audi an A, Nissan a B, Hyundai a D, GM a D-, BMW an F, and Jaguar an F-. Now we have our first look and some exclusive details about what Ford is calling simply the “Ford Mobile Charger”. Based on what we know so far, we can confidently predict an A rating, but probably an A+, and we may have to level down all the other OEMs besides Tesla. And Ford is including a couple of extras that Tesla doesn’t.



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 09:31:47 AM
Clever move on Ford's part. They don't have to spend $100K-250K per charging station to seem like they have a competing charging network. The lower capacity charging stations have always been available to any EV, including Tesla. Level 1 (low power AC) Charging adapters are standard NEMA J1772. The native Tesla adapter is different but Teslas come with an adapter so they can use any AC charger. They also have an AC charger that comes with the car that can be plugged into any 110v (pitifully slow) or 220v outlet (more useful).

There are two standards for fast DC charging--CCS (250 kW) and CHAdeMO (50 kW). Teslas are not directly compatible with either of them. There are adapters available, but it's not just a matter of switching pins, the charger needs to communicate with the battery. EU Teslas have had functioning CCS adapters for some time, but the EU CCS communication is not compatible with Canadian and US CCS. Model 3s in Europe come with CCS native connectors and the superchargers in EU are being refitted to take either native Tesla or CCS connectors.

There are CCS and CHAdeMO adapters either available or in the works but the standards keep changing as the charge rates keep increasing. That's a good thing for the long term and theoretically a PITA for the short term. Theoretically because most Tesla owners use Superchargers and destination chargers (the kind of chargers Tesla sells to hotels and parking lots) for travel anyway. The overwhelming majority of chargers in the Electrify America network are Level 1 (slow) like the ones you find in every large parking lot or big box store. Useful, but not fast charge. They're the equivalent of a gas can--not there to fill up your tank, but they can get you to where you need to be. Electrify America is a serious player though, and a very welcome addition to the EV changeover. Now if Tesla and EA can stop pissing on each other's shoes things will get a lot more handy. Right now the number of fast chargers they have is trivial, but I suspect Ford and other automakers will be happy to support them if that means Tesla's big lead gets whittled.

The Ford announcement is 90 percent air, but by the time their EV's are available, it might not be.

If that sounds like a pissing match, that's because it is.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: fly2surf on November 30, 2019, 09:42:51 AM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

Did you get a test drive?  How was it?

Their website is a bit lacking in details.  It says air suspension but that’s it.  Just wondering if it is independent suspension or solid axle(s).   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 10:07:28 AM
Independent, like all Teslas. There's no real way to even make a solid axle unless you have a driveshaft.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on November 30, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
understand it's slow--but what is the time to charge with 110v?

just learned it is in fact 4+ days! 4 miles of drive range per hour at 110v

not relevant to the discussion

220v charges in 10 hrs



Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 30, 2019, 01:52:09 PM
With a bit of makeup and mood lighting it is almost attractive and worth a test drive.

Bob

Did you get a test drive?  How was it?

Their website is a bit lacking in details.  It says air suspension but that’s it.  Just wondering if it is independent suspension or solid axle(s).

No Fly

no test drive the truck was in for "repairs".....but seriously likely no one will get a test drive until 2021.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 30, 2019, 03:23:20 PM
Here is a very impressive and detailed editorial on the Cybertruck. It is written by the co-founder of Tesloop. Tesloop use to run shuttles from LA to Las Vegas, LA to San Diego, and point to point within LA county. Now they rent one Teslas for the same market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Nice article. I more or less agree with all of it. The degree of utility built into this thing is hard to comprehend, especially hard when you're just looking at the strange shape. Score and fold is the silver bullet for building a unibody from stainless steel, and stainless steel is the silver bullet for unibodies. You can just look at this thing and see that it's much cheaper, faster, and more space-efficient to build than any stamped and painted, compound curved, body-on-frame truck.

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/78454976_10156978619953668_4651439814812368896_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=G9ytLNKIS7IAQnicaU2YSxZymqEG5LE0gCkuut0hWrlKuzUWs4Q4vT9tg&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=816552f8a349236c0b3e3f78750857cc&oe=5E832E3F)
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfercook on November 30, 2019, 07:35:22 PM
Wow! You guys are super dialed and stoked on the Teslas. I saw the Cyber truck on the news the other day and just stumbled on this same article you posted, Tom.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/

750,000 miles and maybe even 1,000,000! Incredible vehicle and as someone who first thought the Honda Element was the worst looking vehicle ever and ended up buying one, I almost instantly though the same of the Cybertruck. After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 09:22:56 PM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 09:51:15 PM
Not so Cyber  8)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on November 30, 2019, 10:01:34 PM
Or this....
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 01, 2019, 02:27:36 AM
Here is a very impressive and detailed editorial on the Cybertruck. It is written by the co-founder of Tesloop. Tesloop use to run shuttles from LA to Las Vegas, LA to San Diego, and point to point within LA county. Now they rent one Teslas for the same market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/27/the-tesla-cybertruck-isnt-a-pickup-its-much-much-more/

The author makes a reasonably good case for all electric vehicles but none of it is limited to Tesla.  That is, except for the parts where he is just being silly ("Chameleon" section).  By the time this vehicle is available it will have competition from all sides.  Buyers will have ample options for capacity, range and style.  You already see corporate buyers lining up in other camps.  They are going to be looking for options that best suit their specific needs and that is not going to be a single vehicle scenario.  Fleet buyers will also be looking at reliability.  This is an area where Tesla has not fared well.

This is Consumer Reports brand reliability list:

How brands fared and their average reliability score:

1. Lexus  78

2. Toyota 76

3. Mazda 69

4. Subaru 65

5. Kia 61 (tie)

6. Infiniti 61 (tie)

7. Audi 60

8. BMW  58

9. Mini  57 (tie)

10. Hyundai  57 (tie)

11. Porsche  54

12. Genesis  52

13. Acura  51 (tie)

14. Nissan  51 (tie)

15. Honda  50

16. Volkswagen 47 (tie)

17. Mercedes-Benz 47 (tie)

18. Ford 45

19. Buick 44

20. Lincoln 43

21. Dodge 40 (tie)

22. Jeep 40  (tie)

23. Chevrolet 39

24. Chrysler 38

25. GMC 37

26. Ram 34

27, Tesla 32 (tie)

28, Cadillac 32  (tie)

29. Volvo 22
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 01, 2019, 03:13:28 AM
It is interesting that the first electric truck is actually already for sale and on the roads.  Sadly, not here.  This little $19,000 stunner was released in July 2019 in China and Asia.  Bolt a lumber/ladder rack on that and you have an epic surf vehicle.

The Rich 6 EV was launched in July 2019 as the world's first production electric truck.  Developed by the Dongfeng-Nissan joint-venture, it’s obviously almost identical to the regular Rich truck design-wise. It’s not exactly wild either with an electric motor rated at 160 horsepower and 310 pound-feet of torque. But it can run for up to 250 miles on a single charge and its battery takes 45 minutes to charge to zero to 80 percent. What’s more, it costs the equivalent of $19,000 after incentives. Indeed an electric truck for the people!

(https://www.evspecifications.com/images/news/f1c2126/main.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on December 01, 2019, 07:16:17 AM
Not only could you put racks on it, when you get to the beach you could make a little money inflating kites, wingdings, and pool toys
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:52:04 AM
Pretty cool, it's kind of surprising that no US automaker picked it up and certified it. It would probably be closer to 30K here, but still...

Interesting times for EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:59:45 AM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.

Yup, of course, you can also use a rack that attaches to the bed, and there's probably some kind of fittings in the upper rails. The bed is long so it will be easy to get good firm separation between the racks--78 inches is more than most of us manage to get with roof racks and rail mounts. Weld-on stuff is pretty interesting though. Of course, you need to have some kind of access to the back of any panel you weld to--stainless has to be back purged. I'll have to up my stainless welding game, but there's lots of time for that, unfortunately.

Tek screws, ugh. At the very least I'd use stainless rivnuts. I suspect most buyers won't drill holes in a new pickup. I'm not one of them. All the stainless rivet nuts I know of are 18-8 stainless which is generally compatible with 301, so that's a workable attachment option.
Title: Re: Electric Su rf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on December 01, 2019, 11:43:42 AM
After reading this article I'm sold.
But can you put racks on it?!
You could Tek screw or weld anything you want to just about anywhere on the SS exoskeleton.

Yup, of course, you can also use a rack that attaches to the bed, and there's probably some kind of fittings in the upper rails. The bed is long so it will be easy to get good firm separation between the racks--78 inches is more than most of us manage to get with roof racks and rail mounts. Weld-on stuff is pretty interesting though. Of course, you need to have some kind of access to the back of any panel you weld to--stainless has to be back purged. I'll have to up my stainless welding game, but there's lots of time for that, unfortunately.

Tek screws, ugh. At the very least I'd use stainless rivnuts. I suspect most buyers won't drill holes in a new pickup. I'm not one of them. All the stainless rivet nuts I know of are 18-8 stainless which is generally compatible with 301, so that's a workable attachment option.

You will need to make them telescoping so to retract them so you can use the nifty vault lid. When you figure it out Bill, make me a set too.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 01, 2019, 09:47:39 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on December 01, 2019, 10:22:12 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.

Bill

Make a set for me. If it is going to be a surf truck make it a woody. Dbrand is offering wraps for your cyber truck.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on December 02, 2019, 01:40:03 PM
This piece has some info and thoughts for people wondering where the Tesla fits into the truck market (although that's not what the piece is about). Among other things, truck buyers are loyal to trucks but not necessarily thrilled with the particular one they have, a strong majority of trucks are never or almost never used for towing or going off road, and a significant number of truck drivers don't ever use the truck bed.  Also, many aren't overly concerned with mileage or being "green" (but on the other hand, they haven't had good options for high-mileage trucks, either).  Trucks are also overwhelmingly bought by men--I wonder if that will be as true with the Tesla:


https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume?sfns=mo (https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume?sfns=mo)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: pdxmike on December 02, 2019, 03:01:58 PM
I've been drawing my racks. The front bar a few inches behind the roof peak attached on the outside of the roof rails with welded plates. The same height on the back. Streamlined carbon cross tubes attached with machined stainless plugs--just because. With the streamlined front tube just behind the peak and bulging up to just clear the roof peak, there'd be a minimal aero issue. The back bar would be unfortunately draggy, but that's life. I expect since I'm pretty stuck on foiling that the covered vault would carry all my toys without a rack, but no guarantees I won't change to something silly.

Bill

Make a set for me. If it is going to be a surf truck make it a woody. Dbrand is offering wraps for your cyber truck.

Bob
I hope those broken-window decals come with the woodgrain wrap package.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: fly2surf on December 03, 2019, 07:09:38 AM
Independent, like all Teslas. There's no real way to even make a solid axle unless you have a driveshaft.

Well I hope you’re right, I would much prefer independent suspension at all four corners.

I wonder what that will do to the dually / 5th wheel crowd though with respect to tow ratings and tongue / axle weight?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on December 03, 2019, 11:33:39 AM
I guess it's all about tire load.

Check out Atlis

https://www.atlismotorvehicles.com/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2019, 12:46:29 PM
So strange. Everyone is using a skateboard drivetrain, which makes perfect sense, and then designing trucks as if they had a massive lump of engine/transmission/transfer case and driveshaft up front and needed a huge frontal area to contain the radiator that has to dissipate 1600hp worth of power to keep a 500hp motor cool--but they don't. That's got to be all empty space--room for luggage or something.

I know people don't like change, but geez.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: robon on December 03, 2019, 04:01:53 PM
I really like the versatility of the Tesla truck on paper and I don't mind if a vehicle isn't pretty, but I definitely don't like the box structure that is reminiscent of the Chevy Avalanche and Honda Ridge Line, and it makes the box less versatile imo. The traditional shape and box rails of many trucks allow for very quick installation and removal of brackets for racks and canopies, without having to drill holes, or very few holes, also without the need to weld and fabricate custom bits and pieces. I'm all about simplicity.

I love having a canopy and use my truck bed for many different purposes. I could imagine a custom canopy costing upwards of ten thousand or more for the the Tesla. I would need to hire Pono to fabricate me something, or lots of somethings.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 04, 2019, 01:20:51 AM
Quote
So strange. Everyone is using a skateboard drivetrain, which makes perfect sense, and then designing trucks as if they had a massive lump of engine/transmission/transfer case and driveshaft up front and needed a huge frontal area to contain the radiator that has to dissipate 1600hp worth of power to keep a 500hp motor cool--but they don't. That's got to be all empty space--room for luggage or something.

I know people don't like change, but geez.

You could argue extra storage space, lovely spot for the charging indicator, etc. but in reality that is the coolest spot to mount the accessories that we don't use.  Just because I have never waded 3 feet deep, winched anything or hauled a few thousand lbs in a 4.5 foot pickup bed doesn't mean I won't need to.  Its about manly, Stanley.  https://manofmany.com/rides/cars/rivian-r1s-off-road-mods-keep-up-manly-appearances

(https://manofmany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rivian-R1S-Off-Road-Mods-2.jpg)

(https://manofmany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rivian-R1S-Off-Road-Mods-3.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: southwesterly on December 04, 2019, 10:28:55 PM
  If there is a will, there is a way.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on December 05, 2019, 03:31:15 AM
much rather a van than a pickup

unless you actually use the bed, like for dirt or gravel, in ways you couldnt use a van i dont see the design as particularly useful

rack? hassles, and kills fuel efficiency---altho with electric, seems we consider the fuel/energy piece a non-cost---not so sure that'll be the case once all combustion engines switch to electric, which is, likely, inevitable

certainly my dream surf mobile will have a rack, for when necessary--but, for normal use, ill just shove boards/bikes etc in the van and go
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2019, 05:40:14 AM
The electric truck race is heating up.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-vs-gm-vs-ford-f150-ev-vs-rivian-r1t-consumer-survey-results/

(https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/autolist-ev-pickup-truck-results.png)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on December 11, 2019, 11:15:58 AM
Remember when Pone said this:
Quote
So here's the thing that may escape casual looks at this truck. It's cheap to build. No frame, no paint, no stamping. It really is Origami. The stamping equipment that makes the pretty curves of normal cars and trucks is eye-wateringly expensive and wears out relatively quickly, requiring rework or replacement to keep making parts that fit. If you tried to stamp stainless of any thickness it would get ridiculously expensive. DeLoreans used thin stainless and minimal stamping and still had huge fit and finish issues from metal hysteresis and die wear. This design is as repeatable as folds in paper. It's made with a score and bend tech from flat panels. If they did it right (and why not) it's a minimum number of parts and a lot fewer fasteners--probably a welded unibody.

well, here you are:

https://youtu.be/0hEMDVQ0qQg

https://insideevs.com/news/387177/perfect-papercraft-diy-tesla-cybertruck/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on March 23, 2020, 11:31:58 AM
I finally drove a Tesla a few days ago. I liked it. Top of the line Model X performance. Took it on a long empty freeway on ramp, and put my foot into it. Roller coaster acceleration. Drove it for about 15 minutes, and never touched the brakes. Had it set for 'no roll' on hill stops. Let it drive on the freeway. One hand on the wheel to keep it in auto pilot. Just turn your blinker on and it will change lanes for you. 60 mph to 80 mph in less than 2 seconds. Wow! $100,000. That's all. I barely fit in it. My head is against the roof. One of the many downfalls of being too tall. My friend who owns it is only 6'5. He just barely fits too. He couldn't believe how my head is jammed against the roof / glass. I'd deal with it if I could afford it :)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on March 24, 2020, 06:17:14 PM
Model Y has better head clearance and is a lot cheaper. And of course you can lower the seat with a bit of effort. I'm tempted to order a model Y but looking at the waiting list I might have a Tesla Truck by the time i could get one. the early owners of the Model Y are ecstatic.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 27, 2020, 06:23:08 AM
Great looking little scoot from VW.  Probably only a surf vehicle for smaller gear but it is cool to see reasonable specs and range at this price (low $30's with tax credit) and in production.  Ticks a lot of boxes.


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: headmount on September 27, 2020, 08:51:12 AM
The electric truck race is heating up.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck-vs-gm-vs-ford-f150-ev-vs-rivian-r1t-consumer-survey-results/

(https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/autolist-ev-pickup-truck-results.png)
What does this graph of percentages represent?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 27, 2020, 01:14:39 PM
That is the percentage of people who said they would choose an etruck from the selected brand.  Since then Ford has announced its F150 plans and GM with their Hummer truck.  Not sure how that may have changed these earlier opinions.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on September 27, 2020, 06:59:51 PM
New guys within 10% of the 100 year old brands? I’d be worried if I was one of the gas guys.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 27, 2020, 07:05:33 PM
It's furlongs per fortnight. Or maybe the result of asking americans some random question like "Do you like vanilla ice cream." There's only one metric that matters--what do people buy. And the answer isn't available yet because guess what--you can't buy ANY of these. And people are dumb and they lie.  You can preorder and then wait by the phone, but bring a stack of Russian novels because yer gonna be waitin a while. If Tesla gets the cybertruck to market in 2021 I predict it will blow a giant bleeding fucking hole in the middle of GMC and Ford. Rivian has some cover since Amazon has committed to buying everything they make until the heat death of the universe, but Ford and GMC will be fucked.

Yup, them Rivians look like a real truck, if you ain't pushin a garage door worth of aero down the freeway then you ain't in a truck, bubba. None of this pansy streamlining shit for me.

Here's the problem, and it's simple physics. An electric car, like the Tesla Model S, might have 100KWH worth of power in its battery. One gallon of gas is about 36KWH of gasoline. Electric motors are a lot more efficient than any form of heat engine, lets say electric motors are 100 percent efficient and gas motors are 30 percent. Close enough. That means one gallon of gas is about 10KWH and your twenty gallon tank is 200KWK, twice as much as any Tesla currently available.

To compete for range the tesla needs to deliver a lot more miles per gallon-equivalent. Fortunately that's pretty easy if you don't need to flow a lot of air through a radiator, and a tesla model S gets about 100 MPG-equivalent. EPA mileage is a lot higher (250), but they're playing with themselves. In real life if you do the basic math it's 100MPG.

That Rivian truck with it's monster grill to cool a radiator it doesn't have can't do that. Here's the problem--it's really stupid. It has all the aero efficiency of a 1968 pontiac station wagon with two matteresses tied to the roof. I can't believe you can pull a bunch of good engineers together and come up with th e-truck that looks like that. Back to the fucking drawing board--it can't be like a Tonka truck.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 28, 2020, 12:13:10 AM
It is interesting to see how the brands are positioning themselves.  Ford is separating themselves from what they are grouping as specialty adventure trucks and they make it clear that they are going to have a big honking front end with a frunk (you know, truck-like).  Pretty clear what he is saying this is not.  https://youtu.be/xQV7NrLJAco?t=270

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 28, 2020, 09:20:52 AM
The tank turn - how cool is that...

https://youtu.be/yzwM8KE2L3I
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on September 28, 2020, 09:15:52 PM
I loved how Tesla's stock tanked after battery day--during it actually. I was sitting there with my jaw dropped contemplating everything they were saying and wall street was somehow translated it all to "you mean it's not ready tomorrow? That's bad."

Of course I bought some more stock, though you don't get as much as when the stock was at $220 pre-split. Still, I picked up some at the post 5 to 1 split price of $385. That's $1925 in pre-split. It closed at 421 today ($2105), I guess someone explained battery day to the wall street folks.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: DavidJohn on October 08, 2020, 03:49:01 PM
Not electric.. but wow.

https://youtu.be/KpZz9uTpq7s
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Fishman on October 10, 2020, 06:08:44 PM
I loved how Tesla's stock tanked after battery day--during it actually. I was sitting there with my jaw dropped contemplating everything they were saying and wall street was somehow translated it all to "you mean it's not ready tomorrow? That's bad."

Of course I bought some more stock, though you don't get as much as when the stock was at $220 pre-split. Still, I picked up some at the post 5 to 1 split price of $385. That's $1925 in pre-split. It closed at 421 today ($2105), I guess someone explained battery day to the wall street folks.
Incredible run for Tesla for sure. My strategy was to buy a Cyberturck for 10 grand, by waiting for a good dip on Tesla stock and wait it out. By 2021 i was counting on a quadruple that would cover the truck cost. I thought i missed the boat then Covid happened and i caught the big dip in March at $400. But stupid me got cold feet and thought it was a dead cat bounce and bailed with (only :) ) 50% up, who knew it would climb 500% :o in 4 months, in a pandemic. The retail market loves some Tesla, that's for sure.  Until the election dust settles i think Bitcoin and Gold will be my only risk plays. I'm a little fearful for the dollar going forward.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 11, 2020, 07:19:37 AM
I have my order in for the three-motor version--I ordered it the day they unvelied it and I'm still about 30,000th on the list. It will probably be the last serious vehicle i ever buy for myself. Though I look at the Tesla semi and think--ultimate motorhome. Fortunately I keep remembering I don't actually like travelling in a motorhome. I moved Fritz into the shop yesterday for the winter. It fits pretty nicely.

I haven't done the math, but I'd guess the gain from the shares I bought at 220 would pay for about ten Cybertrucks. Assuming I sold the shares, which I'm not likely to do. I consider the stock currently overpriced for the valuation and current performance--even projected out a few years. But selling that stock would feel like going short on the future of humanity. That sounds overly dramatic, but there are very few things that give me hope that humanity is smart enough not to kill itself. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfercook on October 11, 2020, 07:46:12 AM
Not electric.. but wow.

https://youtu.be/KpZz9uTpq7s

That is an awesome truck! But what? 3 mpg?!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: clay on October 12, 2020, 10:24:02 AM
I love my electric bike, and RC planes taught me what a pleasure it was to go from gas to electric, but I wonder if by moving the tailpipe up the supply chain I just pushed the mess onto someone else?

Have there been definitive studies on the full cost of gas vs electric - proving which one has less impact on the earth and which is more efficient? 

We've all seen the videos/movies/photos of oil spills, "No Blood for Oil", and all that, is there a similar no "Blood for Batteries" movement or issue, wars being fought over lithium or similar?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Hdip on October 12, 2020, 10:43:27 AM
I follow a thread on another forum about EV's. While there is talk of EV vehicles letting you feel smug while your pollution just goes elsewhere. There's also talk of how power plants can neutralize and/control pollution in a much better way than a car's tailpipe can.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 12, 2020, 05:40:37 PM
It's really a silly notion, and a lot of these ideas get supported if not created by people with a lot to lose when oil stops getting burned. First of all, you don't get to jump to a transformed future in one hop. Sooner or later we need to stop burning oil for transportation. Do we wait until it's gone before we do something different?

The only way EV's pollute at a level even in the ballpark of internal combution engines is if all the power comes from coal. It doesn't. I've seen people write that more EVs mean more coal plants. That is simply a lie. There are NO new coal plants being built in the USA and most projects in the early stages are being cancelled. Google it.

And it's not just the gasoline and Diesel getting burned in vehicles that matter, it's also the infrastructure costs and transport for the fuel. Every gallon if gasoline that goes in your car came from someplace far away. There is no additional transport infrastructure required for moving to a more electrified future--the existing grids are actually oversized for most cases where people transition to point of use generation and storage.

Beyond all that, EVs like the Tesla are extremely efficient compared to IC vehicles. There's a youtube video around that's so strange that you'd have to see it, and do the math yourself to believe it. A guy in Canada towed a Model S around a track with a Raptor truck, using the regen to charge the battery. The idea is that it's more efficient to tow a Tesla behind the truck and charge it, and then use the Tesla to go where you want to go rather than drive there in the raptor. Sounds nuts, but it worked because the Tesla is so much more efficient to drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGVoB4Zn-Y

It makes me crazy to hear people say solar is too expensive. Do they live in 1985? I can buy 400 watt PV panels for 70 bucks. I remember when 200 watt panels were more than a thousand. By the time I have my Cybertruck my shop will be independent of the grid, though I'll stay connected and sell a little power, and unless I decide to go nuts and spring for a 3-phase inverter i'll power my 3-phase compressor from the grid. I'll charge my truck from the shop. I'll be generating a lot of power, and storing 75KWH in one of my containers. It's not rocket surgery.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 22, 2020, 03:42:17 AM
Hummer.  Not as bling as I expected.  It is a good looker.  Super capable spec (and a price tag).  Not sure it is a surf vehicle but pretty cool to see.  Looks like Ford is going to be alone in the 50K "conventional" EV truck market in the short term.  That is interesting.

(https://cnet3.cbsistatic.com/img/g53K_FBLJav6YxILqzz9_5nTEV4=/980x551/2020/10/21/a1b638e6-eed7-4553-93eb-54a42c8a7015/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-012.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjMhZKmHKGk
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 22, 2020, 01:19:45 PM
One thing Elon Musk said recently that is a critical element of the future of EVs is that it's ten thousand times more complicated, expensive and difficult to build the machine that builds the machine. (I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist). I don't know the particulars of the Hummer EV prototype, but I doubt GMC had anything to do with building it other than specifying what it was going to be and writing checks. Until they start building a line to make those by the hundred thousands it's just a pretty toy, and nothing more. The car and light truck biz is very strange. Even for semi-production cars like the Chevy Volt, the lion's share of parts making up the vehicle were not produced by Chevrolet, and that's one reason they lost so much money on every Volt produced. Even if they brought a car like the Volt into real production (never will, too complicated) they wouldn't make most of the bits.

The potential for EV's is for them to be uncomplicated and cheap to produce. The new monolithic battery and casting tech Tesla is bringing to bear shows just how simple they can be. Front and rear castings, slab of battery to connect everything together. Bolt in the motors and drop on a body. Unless the vehicle is in a major league collision that core stays intact and no one touches it for the life of the car--probably more than 300K miles and less than 1 million. A drivetrain with three moving parts--unless it's AWD in which case it's six.

No other manufacturer is actually setting up to do that.

Incidentally, Elon was asked if the cybertruck could be amphibious. He thought about it a few seconds and said "sure". With a fundamentally sealed compartment, the thing looks like a boat to start with.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on October 22, 2020, 09:57:44 PM
I have a buddy who charges his electric car with solar. There’s really no way that no matter what the dirt in a lithium battery, it’s dirtier than petrochemicals. Also, consider the scale.

Go to South Texas or Louisiana and try to tell me how dirty batteries are.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 22, 2020, 10:04:26 PM
Our volt in Maui is solar-powered, and by the time I get a Tesla Cybertruck it, and my entire shop, will be solar-powered. Mostly just for the heck of it. Power is pretty cheap here next to the Columbia River.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 27, 2020, 10:48:18 AM
This whole "electric pollutes more than oil" thing came up in a conversation with an acquaintance recently who I don't consider stupid. I can't believe how persistent this nonsense is. If you understand that oil is a limited resouce, absolutely non-renewable, then at some point it's going to be gone. Do we try to switch when that happens? If you believe that at some level buring oil and coal is bad for the environment, do you wait for the environment to be totally hosed before we switch?

He also told me it was too expensive. Staggering. Even not considering fuel cost, it's cheaper to build a PV farm than a new fossil fuel plant. It's less than a dollar a watt at retail. Find some other 1000 megawatt power plant that costs less than a billion to site and build. Add in fuel, transportation costs, mining costs, and environmental costs and it's a tiny fraction of a fossil plant. Panels are made of silicon, no moving parts, maintenance consists of occasionally washing the panels, nothing to transport except electricity, which moves through a grid that already exists. Every bit of the infrastructure is renewable. And how could anyone fail to see that EV batteries are totally renewable--at the very worst, they are the richest possible ore. The only thing holding renewables back is dumb grids instead of smartgrids. And the PR/political warchests of fossil fuel companies.

I don't get it. I'm going to have to rethink that "I don't consider stupid" comment.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 19, 2020, 05:01:23 AM
It is great to see prices dropping on vehicles that haven't been released yet, but they are.

Still expensive but a bit less so.  https://electrek.co/2020/11/11/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-price-competitive-tesla-cybertruck-incentives/

Tesla has had some amazing drops as well.  Really good values there:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32686279/tesla-price-cuts-model-s-model-x-model-3/

The Lucid (517 miles of all electric range) is a beautiful vehicle as well:

(https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/lucid-air-103-1599688020.jpg?crop=0.663xw:0.560xh;0.0946xw,0.224xh&resize=2048:*)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on November 19, 2020, 11:59:55 AM
In addition to what Pono pointed out about the environmental costs of fossil fuels, it is a lot easier,  more environmentally friendly and much cheaper to install charging station than to put in a gas station. I looked at the Tesla charging map for Baja and found that there are areas where there are charging stations that do not have gas stations. Several hotels have added 18kW and 13kW chargers. For example, there are no gas stations from El Rosario to Guerrero Negro which is about 200 miles, but they have installed a couple of 13kW chargers in Catavina which is 75 miles from El Rosario. This is important because there are great surf spots between the two and it's always been a hassle to have enough gas to explore the Seven Sisters area. Looks like today there's no problem driving to the tip of Baja in my future Cyber Truck.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: jondrums on November 19, 2020, 03:51:11 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread for so long!  I'm a huge electric vehicle nut, having worked in the industry (specifically electric vehicles) for a dozen years.  I bought one of the first few Tesla Model 3 ever made and would never dream of using it as a surf vehicle.  It'll be the ultimate classic car by the time I'm ready to pass it down to my grandkids. I daily drive it, but I do take good care.  Do I want salt water dripping onto the roof or into the trunk from my wetsuit - NO WAY.  I don't baby it, but it won't be used as a surf vehicle.

I like the look of the newly announced Ford Transit EV - that one could be a winner as a local surf vehicle.  I wouldn't think of roadtripping in it.

We've all seen the videos/movies/photos of oil spills, "No Blood for Oil", and all that, is there a similar no "Blood for Batteries" movement or issue, wars being fought over lithium or similar?

Clay, unfortunately yes there is.  Not lithium though.  The biggest issue today in batteries is Cobalt.  It is still mined in absolutely horrific conditions in third-world countries.  The industry is very aware of this and working to design chemistries with less cobalt as well as funding a number of new sustainable cobalt mining operations.  The problem has been that these mining operations take incredible capital and time to get going - and of course the cost will go up significantly due to not using slave labor.   This issue is incredibly troubling, but I do see that the automakers are quite serious about addressing it - though it isn't fixed yet.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2020, 02:07:46 AM
I like the look of the newly announced Ford Transit EV - that one could be a winner as a local surf vehicle.

Yeah, that would be a winner if it had a bit more range.  Roosevelt and back is a must for us :).  I am really looking forward to some e mini vans.  Those are just way to convenient and easy for foiling gear. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 25, 2020, 08:53:53 AM
I've been wondering what was holding up Lithium battery recycling since it's obviously important and certainly a high potential margin operation. Lots of green money looking for someone to do it at scale. It turns out there has been a lot of investment and major projects underway, a bit under the radar.  JB Straubel, who was Tesla's CTO and a co-founder of the company, stepped down in 2019, and went off to found a company called Redwood, to do exactly that at a gigafactory scale. Interesting tech, and of course all the green funds are putting money into the venture. They've built two substantial recycling plants as a large-scale pilot that have a larger scale and broader reach than the recycling facility Tesla built in Nevada. I get the Evannex newsletter but somehow missed this one back in August. https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-ramps-up-his-battery-recycling-startup

It's an obvious way to close the loop on what will become a tidal wave of recyclable batteries over the coming decades. All the useful materials are present after use in many times the concentration with almost none of the waste material of refining from ore, regardless of the state of the battery. There are successful examples of closed loop manufacturing already--lead acid batteries are mostly made of recycled materials--99.3% of LA batteries are recycled and 80-90 percent of the lead and plastic in new batteries come from recycling. Lithium batteries have far more valuable constituents and should be nearly 100 percent recyclable including the shell and possibly the insulators. 

It's an absolutely necessary element of shifting to storage as a major piece of meeting energy requirements. And the money side is obvious, 50 to 75% of the cost of a battery now is materials. In the early days it was manufacturing labor and capex, now that's shifting quickly as highly automated manufacturing comes on line.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0196/5170/files/saupload_800x-1.png?v=1598537905)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on November 25, 2020, 07:00:52 PM
I don't know how I missed this thread for so long!  I'm a huge electric vehicle nut,....  Do I want salt water dripping onto the roof or into the trunk from my wetsuit - NO WAY.  I don't baby it, but it won't be used as a surf vehicle

We've all seen the videos/movies/photos of oil spills, "No Blood for Oil", and all that, is there a similar no "Blood for Batteries" movement or issue, wars being fought over lithium or similar?

https://surfbunker.com/blog/testing-a-tesla-model-3-is-it-for-surfers



The Tesla model 3 may be a reasonable electric surf vehicle. The key card is waterproof, credit card sized and should be easy to stash in a wetsuit. Lock your phone (off or in airplane mode) in the car.  The frunk can be used for wet neoprene and several short boards can fit inside the car with the back seats down. An 8’ board will fit but protrudes up between the front seats. There is a roof rack available. I am not sure how the vegan “leather” is going to hold up but a seat cover and towel is likely all that is needed. Right now I can ride my bike to the local beaches but if I want to go a bit farther into the park to Long Beach or Florencia come the summer our M3 will may be my only option. My wife however may not be very happy with the idea.

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 25, 2020, 08:05:17 PM
Model Y will be better if you can get one, but ultimately my surf vehicle (and everything vehicle) will be the cybertruck. They can't build that soon enough for me. It has everything I want in a vehicle, including the ability to load motorcycles without a separate ramp, lots of lockable storage, 4WD, 500 miles of range. monster inverter, compressor, and towing capacity. Not to mention stainless steel construction. A stainless steel surf rig? What could be better?

I met a very strange, very rich dude years ago who had two Ford F150's with most of the bodywork and all of the fasteners replaced with stainless steel. No idea what that cost him, but it must have been ridiculously expensive. He just didn't want his stuff to rust. His family owned most of Irvine, CA, so he could afford it, but the cybertruck will be much better.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 24, 2020, 04:16:09 AM
This is in the news again this week with talk of an upcoming EV.  It will be interesting to see if Apple sticks with it this time and produces a vehicle.  https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/apple-car/

If they do let's hope for a Van :)

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 24, 2020, 07:21:34 AM
Giving Tesla a "run for its money" is certainly ambitious. I've seen what is supposed to be spy photos of the car, if that's anything like what they actually intend then the run will be a short one. Quite a few of the autonomous projects rely on Lidar as a shortcut as Apple apparently is doing, which is simply nuts. It can extend range (at least theoretically) of visual systems, but the ability to recognize hazards, signs, people, and changes in driving situations require visual systems. It's not just that it's how we navigate, it's the most direct path to meet the close range requirements of driving.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 24, 2020, 08:15:24 AM
It is interesting that Apple would have chosen to compete with Tesla as opposed to just buying the company.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 24, 2020, 04:20:22 PM
It's a little hard to buy Tesla these days. Apple might have an easier time buying Toyota, or certainly GMC or Ford. Actually, they could buy  Volkswagen, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, GM, Ford, Honda, Fiat Chrysler, and Peugeot all together for less than Tesla's current $650 Billion market cap, so that might be the reason for their reticence.

Apple's market cap almost doubled this year to $2.3 trillion, but still...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 24, 2020, 11:32:36 PM
Yeah, you can't help but wonder if Tim Cook is kicking himself for not taking the meeting with Musk. 

"During the darkest days of the Model 3 program, I reached out to Tim Cook to discuss the possibility of Apple acquiring Tesla (for 1/10 of our current value). He refused to take the meeting".
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 25, 2020, 08:42:40 AM
Yeah, you can't help but wonder if Tim Cook is kicking himself for not taking the meeting with Musk. 

"During the darkest days of the Model 3 program, I reached out to Tim Cook to discuss the possibility of Apple acquiring Tesla (for 1/10 of our current value). He refused to take the meeting".

I'm kicking myself too. I thought the stock price was being held low intentionally via lots of strange-acting short-sellers and nonsensical media. I thought it couldn't last, once the stock started to rise to the levels I thought it should reach the short-sellers would be toast no matter who was backing them. I wanted to make a substantial investment but backed down to something a bit less dramatic. As it is I made a nice chunk of change, but if I had invested what I wanted to I would have more than doubled my net worth.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on January 28, 2021, 04:50:23 AM
Some pretty cool changes to the interiors of the Model S and X.  I like these a lot.  Clean jet fighter feel.  Digging that.  Crazy specs on the Plaid models.

https://www.motor1.com/news/482516/new-tesla-model-s-interior-plaid/

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on January 28, 2021, 07:41:59 AM
I think the Tesla stock will remain constantly volatile. The market is clearly insane. Gamestop worth billions? To whom? Shorted by more than 100%? How is that feasible, and isn't that manipulation? The SEC has to be sleeping in. Time to wake them back up.

The Plaid+ is totally nuts. 0 to 60 in under 2 seconds?!? Even the Long Range dual-motor like Diane's will snap your neck. Some goofball in a gorgeous silver grey 2020 Aston Martin wanted to race me yesterday when I was going to the grocery store (literally, a grocery-getter). He did a full-on launch control launch at a stoplight and left a few hundred bucks worth of rubber while I slowly pulled away like I had a cup of coffee in my lap and watched him go. At the next stoplight he did it again. I didn't do anything Ludicrous (Diane opted not to get it), just stood on it for two seconds and left him for dead. That's got to suck. My tires didn't even chirp.

And yes, of course Diane wasn't in the car.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on January 28, 2021, 09:52:26 AM
It took me a few weeks to actually floor it.  Chan said, "please never do that again".  Carson said, "I think my lip touched my ear". I said 3.something seconds worth of "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".

I think Plaid is cool in theory but I don't know who that would be for.   

Amazing that these are the safest cars on the road.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on January 28, 2021, 10:18:58 AM
I think they scare the drivers into driving carefully. Diane drove her Porsche Boxster like she stole it. Other than a few tentative jabs she's never floored her Tesla. The handling is outstanding and the traction control in turns for the all-wheel drive is as good as I've ever seen--better than my old Ferrari 360. You'd have to be on some mighty slick pavement to spin it or otherwise lose control. That, plus the fact that you don't have the engine coming to visit you in the front seat in the event of a serious crash probably accounts for a lot of the safety record.

The new backup camera update that adds views from the side cameras is fabulous, and that backup camera floors me every time I look at it. Stunning picture quality.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on February 05, 2021, 03:34:21 AM
This is really interesting stuff from Musk himself.  https://insideevs.com/news/485543/refreshed-tesla-model-sx-liion-12v-battery/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: clay on February 07, 2021, 10:06:46 AM
I cracked up watching this, love Will Ferrill:

https://youtu.be/mdsPvbSpB2Y
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on February 07, 2021, 01:50:19 PM
Sandy Monroe is a tough old bird, I've been watching his videos for years. He was brutal on the fit and finish of the Model 3 (justifiably) and on how all Tesla's were manufactured--until Tesla started doing their massive castings. Now he's a total fanboy. With good reason. Tesla isn't just revolutionizing how cars are powered, they'll soon be able to build cars for much less than what ICEs cost. The smug dudes on the Autoweek vBlog are still spouting the same nonsense--but the truth is they don't know what hit them, and they are never going to know. Roadkill.

Elon's rap about MBAs is priceless too, though I think the days of people with MBAs parachuting into senior roles was over some time ago.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: headmount on March 22, 2021, 06:26:09 PM
Sandy Monroe is a tough old bird, I've been watching his videos for years. He was brutal on the fit and finish of the Model 3 (justifiably) and on how all Tesla's were manufactured--until Tesla started doing their massive castings. Now he's a total fanboy. With good reason. Tesla isn't just revolutionizing how cars are powered, they'll soon be able to build cars for much less than what ICEs cost. The smug dudes on the Autoweek vBlog are still spouting the same nonsense--but the truth is they don't know what hit them, and they are never going to know. Roadkill.

Elon's rap about MBAs is priceless too, though I think the days of people with MBAs parachuting into senior roles was over some time ago.
My sister just bought the lowest end Tesla.  Wow.  So good.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on March 23, 2021, 06:24:36 AM
I'm still considering a Model Y or an old used Model S in advance of the Cybertruck. Once I sell my race car and Nero, the airstream car hauler I won't have much need for my F350. But I'll probably just hang onto it until I get my monster solar installation done at the shop. I'm going to make the shop self-contained for power. It will be a fun project.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on April 02, 2021, 03:40:13 PM
I sold a board to a guy who arrived in a sleek glass topped Tesla S, with no apparent way to carry a board.
He said Tesla racks cannot be fitted to Tesla’s glass roofs, and he hauled out some Sea Sucker vacuum operated suction cup racks. I would be nervous but he has used them for a couple of years now with confidence.
Interestingly the only issue is over mountain passes the pressure differential requires him to pump out some additional air.  Just took him at his word on that. But they looked pretty slick. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on April 02, 2021, 04:17:36 PM
A friend of mine has been using sea suckers on his Chevy bolt for a couple of years without any problems. He usually carries one or two bagged long boards on the freeway. His only complaint is they cannot be locked in place so he often takes them off and put them inside his car while surfing. It only takes a couple of minutes.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on April 02, 2021, 05:20:29 PM
I sold a board to a guy who arrived in a sleek glass topped Tesla S, with no apparent way to carry a board.
He said Tesla racks cannot be fitted to Tesla’s glass roofs, and he hauled out some Sea Sucker vacuum operated suction cup racks. I would be nervous but he has used them for a couple of years now with confidence.
Interestingly the only issue is over mountain passes the pressure differential requires him to pump out some additional air.  Just took him at his word on that. But they looked pretty slick.

Weird. As far as I know Tesla Ss can accommodate a roof rack. I know my T3 can and the installation is reported to be easy. The roof is designed for a rack to be installed.  https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-s-roof-rack---glass-roof
We see quite a few surf boards on top of Teslas here in Tofino.

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on April 02, 2021, 10:29:59 PM
Some have the cool little inserts, some don't. My wife's 2014 had them. Her 2019 doesn't. I'd be more irritated about that but she won't let me touch it anyway. Smart lady.

If I had one that didn't have mounts I'd weld some on. See above to see why that won't happen to the one "we" own.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on April 18, 2021, 12:51:53 PM
We were very close (placed a deposit) to purchasing a Hyundai Kona EV over a year ago. The dealer tried to sell us an extended warranty that included free oil changes. When we crunched the numbers the Hyundia was going to cost approximately 3K more than a base model Tesla 3 standard range plus. The Kona would have been a better surf vehicle but we decided on the Tesla. Thank goodness we did. All of the Kona’s world wide have been recalled because of fires. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hyundai-motor-electric-recall-idUSKBN2BG3ET

Traditional methods of putting cars together by traditional auto companies are going to have difficulty competing with a the non-traditional North American company that is Tesla. It is a year out and I still love taking this car out for a drive. The drive across island is one of the most winding mountain roads in Canada. Sports bikes commonly drive it on Sundays. This little car is insanely well built and handles and accelerates like a sports car.

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on April 20, 2021, 09:40:54 AM
If you type the words "Electric Vehicle" on Facebook you still attract a horde repeating the same tired refrains. People are persistent in defending their views while the world changes around them, faster than they can perceive.

The mania around cryptocurrency is the opposite end of that spectrum. Sadly, I realized a long time ago that blockchain was important tech and that I should invest some percentage of my net worth in the various plays--no matter how goofy the crowd was that surrounded the concepts. But I did nothing. I probably could have done a micro version of the Winklevii, who boosted their $60 million gained by suing Zuckerberg (who unquestionably stole Facebook from them) to about $6 Billion by investing in cryptostuff, but I never pulled the trigger. Oh well.

The future is here, it's just unevenly distributed--and unevenly understood.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020 (2022?)
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2021, 02:29:57 AM
Ford has done a lot more than I had anticipated.  Great looking product with healthy specs starting at $39,500 (and it gets the full $7,500 tax credit).  That is pretty crazy for a 4WD vehicle.  I am glad that they didn't beat up the "I'm electric" look.  They hit a pretty good balance there.  Dual motor 4WD on all models.  3 days of emergency home power would have been nice for the prolonged outages we have had in each of our past two winters here.  The Powerwall feature of powering your home during higher cost times and recharging at low cost times would be sweet.  Hoseable frunk looks great, outlets all around look nice.  Shoot, I can use my plug in orbital to sand my feet while I'm camping.  Sweet!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-YOvl8ygeg
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 20, 2021, 10:58:43 AM
It's very slick. If it's actually available before the cybertruck I will probably go for it. I really like my F350, but I bought that monster for the towing capability. Since I'm retiring from racing cars this year, after one last race at PIR this summer, I won't need as much towing capacity. But even if I did, the 10,000 pound capacity of the lightning with the big battery and tow package is enough to tow Nero, my airstream race car trailer with almost a full load, Including Peyote (the car, not the drug).

At $90K maxed out it's actually a bit less than I expected to spend on a Cybertruck. I know I sound like a huge Tesla fanboy, but really I'm an EV fanboy, and this truck looks like it will check all the boxes. It also will let me do something I was prepared to spend a substantial amount of money for--powering my shop independently of the grid with solar power. Grid independence requires a monster battery. I planned to do that this year by putting a salvaged Model 3 battery in one of the containers at my shop and adding a huge solar installation. I'll still do the huge solar project but I'll hold off on the battery since having one on wheels is a lot more practical than having one in a container. The full system would cost me in the neighborhood of $60K, and I can shave that to $30K if I wind up with a truck that provides the same power capabilities.

I think the importance of this is a little undersold. Alternate power is far more practical with local battery storage adequate to fully power a house at normal power use levels (about 3.5KWH per day as I recall). If using EV batteries as a power buffer becomes commonplace the utility and cost of independent power generation change dramatically. I think it's stupid that Tesla hasn't already jumped all over this, but they want to sell powerwalls. No one would buy a 10KWH powerwall if they could have their 90KWH Tesla serve the same function when it's parked in the garage.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: peterp on May 20, 2021, 01:36:38 PM
It's very slick. If it's actually available before the cybertruck I will probably go for it. I really like my F350, but I bought that monster for the towing capability. Since I'm retiring from racing cars this year, after one last race at PIR this summer, I won't need as much towing capacity. But even if I did, the 10,000 pound capacity of the lightning with the big battery and tow package is enough to tow Nero, my airstream race car trailer with almost a full load, Including Peyote (the car, not the drug).

At $90K maxed out it's actually a bit less than I expected to spend on a Cybertruck. I know I sound like a huge Tesla fanboy, but really I'm an EV fanboy, and this truck looks like it will check all the boxes. It also will let me do something I was prepared to spend a substantial amount of money for--powering my shop independently of the grid with solar power. Grid independence requires a monster battery. I planned to do that this year by putting a salvaged Model 3 battery in one of the containers at my shop and adding a huge solar installation. I'll still do the huge solar project but I'll hold off on the battery since having one on wheels is a lot more practical than having one in a container. The full system would cost me in the neighborhood of $60K, and I can shave that to $30K if I wind up with a truck that provides the same power capabilities.

I think the importance of this is a little undersold. Alternate power is far more practical with local battery storage adequate to fully power a house at normal power use levels (about 3.5KWH per day as I recall). If using EV batteries as a power buffer becomes commonplace the utility and cost of independent power generation change dramatically. I think it's stupid that Tesla hasn't already jumped all over this, but they want to sell powerwalls. No one would buy a 10KWH powerwall if they could have their 90KWH Tesla serve the same function when it's parked in the garage.

Spot on - the V2H is a game changer for the EV and solar PV market - charge your car via your solar array and use the excess to power your home at night. Most EV's will only use 7-10kWh per day for normal driving - that leaves plenty to run your house overnight until the sun comes back to continue powering house. The fact that Tesla has been dithering on this is beyond me - their Powerwall is expensive and not that amazing. Tesla are serious laggards on this one.......
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2021, 01:53:03 PM
It's very slick. If it's actually available before the cybertruck I will probably go for it. I really like my F350, but I bought that monster for the towing capability. Since I'm retiring from racing cars this year, after one last race at PIR this summer, I won't need as much towing capacity. But even if I did, the 10,000 pound capacity of the lightning with the big battery and tow package is enough to tow Nero, my airstream race car trailer with almost a full load, Including Peyote (the car, not the drug).

At $90K maxed out it's actually a bit less than I expected to spend on a Cybertruck. I know I sound like a huge Tesla fanboy, but really I'm an EV fanboy, and this truck looks like it will check all the boxes. It also will let me do something I was prepared to spend a substantial amount of money for--powering my shop independently of the grid with solar power. Grid independence requires a monster battery. I planned to do that this year by putting a salvaged Model 3 battery in one of the containers at my shop and adding a huge solar installation. I'll still do the huge solar project but I'll hold off on the battery since having one on wheels is a lot more practical than having one in a container. The full system would cost me in the neighborhood of $60K, and I can shave that to $30K if I wind up with a truck that provides the same power capabilities.

I think the importance of this is a little undersold. Alternate power is far more practical with local battery storage adequate to fully power a house at normal power use levels (about 3.5KWH per day as I recall). If using EV batteries as a power buffer becomes commonplace the utility and cost of independent power generation change dramatically. I think it's stupid that Tesla hasn't already jumped all over this, but they want to sell powerwalls. No one would buy a 10KWH powerwall if they could have their 90KWH Tesla serve the same function when it's parked in the garage.

Spot on - the V2H is a game changer for the EV and solar PV market - charge your car via your solar array and use the excess to power your home at night. Most EV's will only use 7-10kWh per day for normal driving - that leaves plenty to run your house overnight until the sun comes back to continue powering house. The fact that Tesla has been dithering on this is beyond me - their Powerwall is expensive and not that amazing. Tesla are serious laggards on this one.......

For sure.  This may give Tesla a nudge in the right direction.  I don't see how they could let Ford (and likely others) sit alone with these features.  It is too compelling.  They have my $100.00.  With 22 inch wheels, 9 inches of clearance and regenerative braking this should be great for our hill in snow.  The regen on the Tesla alone already makes it the nicest snow vehicle I have ever driven.  That was unexpected.  I can't imagine this not being a hit with the contractor set.  Powering a worksite has to overshadow lingering ICE preferences. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 20, 2021, 02:06:08 PM
It does, of course, require a substantial inverter and automatic transfer switches to ensure you don't back power the grid and kill a lineman trying to fix an outage. But if full battery voltage is used (about 300VDC) then the wiring for everything--from the solar controllers to the vehicle charger to the inverter input becomes much lighter with less wire loss. I can (and plan to) buy HVDC solar controllers and a 15KV inverter from China. The solar industry at the residential level has a surprising amount of nonsensical legacy inertia for such a relatively young industry. All the big utility installations are HVDC. There are lots of ways to make this work, and if I can do it for $30K in quantity one then Ford and Tesla can do it for $5K or less in quantity 500,000. I'd build most of it into the wall charger if I were Tesla, and the charger would sell for $10K--which anyone who didn't have their head up their ass would be thrilled to pay. Same basic price as a Powerwall--almost the same guts only no wimpy battery. And they could still sell a full powerwall version for people who wanted a backup to the vehicle being available.

It seems incredibly stupid not to do it. I agree with Admin, Tesla has no choice now. And yeah, EV's are amazing snow vehicles. The more advanced stuff is the four-wheel differential biasing with very powerful computers doing the tweaking.

The wheels never spin unless all four a spinning or for some reason you decide to drive in Ludicrous mode on snow. Which sound kind of fun now that I think about it.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 20, 2021, 10:12:25 PM
It looks like the plan for the lightning is to have the inverter in the truck capable of powering a house. Adding up what they plan for the trunk (front and back) outlets they are talking about roughly 10KW, which is enough, and there's a 230V outlet specified, which means either a big autotransformer or a split-phase inverter. That would be cool, and certainly feasible.

I like all the clever stuff, the trailer features are incredible--though the tech is almost obvious once you start with a clean sheet. Automatic positioning on the trailer hitch--push the button, let the truck get the ball in exactly the right place, and just lower the trailer onto it. Auto trailer backing--wow! A trailer hitch that detects tongue weight and calculates load distribution once you move it a bit, and then recalculates energy use for the planned destination based on load and known terrain. Hmmm, why didn't we already have that? I imagine Elon is a little bug-eyed. He's always said his aim was to get all automakers on board with moving away from ICE. I guess it's working.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on May 20, 2021, 10:32:13 PM
Pono, do you know how the range will be effected by towing?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 20, 2021, 10:38:06 PM
Generally, it drops fairly steeply, especially if you climb hills. Of course, you get a lot of that back when you come back down, which doesn't happen with an ICE--regen braking is a marvelous thing. There are too many factors to say for sure, but there's a good reason all the recreational trailer pics are airstreams.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Tom on May 20, 2021, 11:27:25 PM
it would be cool if you had. a Solar panel, battery, and motor in the airstream to help out.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 21, 2021, 06:00:19 AM
This article outlines the power sharing capabilities pretty well.  It is a huge expansion and reimagining of a system which is already in place for their hybrids which they are calling Ford Pro Power.  The article starts "Doomsday preppers (and, um, power-hungry workers), your electric pickup truck has arrived."  That will prove to be a huge underestimation of this feature set.  I imagine everyone has a use for this.  Also cool that they are including the required highest end charger with the upper end packages.   Not the biggest deal but a nice touch.  Cool also that they have contacted with a nationwide service group to manage the in home installations. 

It also seems like Ford sent their minions a realistic message to share.  Basically, this is a monster for relatively local towing but not yet the answer for practical long distance towing use.  At 44 minute supercharger times and likely 150 Mile range with a heavy wind resistant load, this is going to be a bit painful. 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-charging-generator-power/

Lastly Ford did something really smart.  It looks like they priced so that (with tax credits) the electric option is going to be at or slightly below the ICE price. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 21, 2021, 10:36:42 AM
Despite its relatively flimsy frame, the underside of an Airstream is just begging for a battery pack--and of course, such a pack can be engineered to stiffen the frame and provide all you might wish for in floor insulation. I can't possibly be the only person to realize that. The top of a typical Airstream is enough space to hold a kilowatt or slightly more of PV if the stupid roof mount AC unit and vents are eliminated. Modern mini-split inverter AC systems are far more efficient and almost noiseless. I stupidly replaced the functional but overly tall AC in Fritz, my lunatic RV project, with a slightly shorter "low profile" heat pump that still sounds like 747 taking off. I'm installing a mini-split in the back, and that experience made me realize how dumb I'd been. Getting rid of all the roof crap would have enabled the 1.86KW of PV's I installed to hug the roof instead of looming over the coach like a giant wing.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_1237.jpg?w=1024&ssl=1)

Not only would the battery between the frame rails power everything you might possibly want in the Airstream, and six or more hours a day of solar power (6 to 8KWh) keep the battery topped up, but the battery could double the distance the trailer can be hauled without stopping.

The practicality all comes down to use case. Nomads, constantly moving would find this still limiting. The typical user drives some relatively small distance (a few hundred miles), stays there a week or two, and drives back. Most RVs sit in a driveway 10 months out of the year, where they could serve as a mega powerwall and solar charger. Add rooftop solar to the house and you can tell your local utility to piss up a rope.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 22, 2021, 03:25:20 AM
Some more details on this. 

https://www.slashgear.com/ford-f-150-lightning-is-a-tesla-powerwall-on-wheels-19673534/

For Intelligent Backup Power to work, you’ll need a specific home charger designed to work with bidirectional power. The new Ford Charge Station Pro is a special, 80-amp unit that’s wired into the home’s electrical system; it also uses a new home management system which Ford says it can help users install. The automaker is working with Sunrun for installation alongside solar panels.

Down the line, Ford says, it has even more ambitious updates for the system, Ford Intelligent Power won’t just call the F-150 Lightning’s battery into play during emergency stations, but will aim to offset domestic use during high-cost, peak-energy hours. If your truck is plugged in during those periods – often in the afternoon or early evening – then its battery can be used to keep the home running, switching back to the grid to top-up overnight when electricity rates are lower.

The 80A Ford Charge Station Pro will be included with the Extended range battery version of the F-150 Lightning, and an option with the Standard range model.

(https://cdn.motor1.com/images/custom/ford-f-150-lightning-pro-power-onboard.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 23, 2021, 04:42:55 AM
This stuff is pretty wild to follow.  I remember reading about Ford investing a Billion buckaroos in Argo https://www.argo.ai/ a few years ago.  VW came on later with 2.6 Billion.  It seemed like a late to the party effort to get involved in self driving at the time. They were looking at 2021 to have self driving ready.  https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/16/16155254/argo-ai-ford-self-driving-car-autonomous.   They are Lidar focused https://fordauthority.com/2021/05/argo-ai-reveals-new-potentially-game-changing-lidar-sensor/ and seem to be coming at things from a very different approach than Tesla.  They clearly have set their sites on the ride share and delivery businesses https://www.argo.ai/company-news/breakthrough-new-lidar-technology-gives-argo-ai-the-edge-in-autonomous-delivery-and-ride-hail-services/.  This is where it starts to get really interesting as Musk has been pretty vocally negative on Lidar.  I was surprised to see "Blue Cruise" (kinda hate that name) in action already.  This is an E ticket.  I am just hanging out here and my simulation keeps getting better and better :).

Ford to 20.  Actually, Ford to 50 has more zing.  Let's go with that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 23, 2021, 10:54:13 AM
It always reminded me of that movie about the Tehran diplomat rescue in 1979--Argo, as in "Arrrr go fuck yourself". Lidar is derided for good reason and bad. Humans drive cars with vision and a very slow computer. Far superior vision (our eyes really suck) and a fast computer are the most complete replacement for a human driver. But the database for our slow neural network is immense--the full input is everything seen, experienced, and interpreted for however many years the driver has lived. And vision requires a lot of processing just to interpret distance, where Lidar can measure distance directly. The big advantage is ranging, the huge disadvantage is that vision offers a lot more cues. You can't read a sign with Lidar. Anyway, there are a lot of ways to skin the self-driving cat. It's not a particularly difficult problem technically. The big difficulty is that the performance has to be nearly perfect for people to accept it. Every death in a self-driving car is big news. Meanwhile, humans driving cars rack up mayhem at a staggering rate.

If we were remotely pragmatic, when self-driving reduced fatalities by 50% we'd ban humans from ever sitting behind a wheel and save 600,000 lives per year, a half-billion injuries, and about 1.5% of the GNP for the world. That number was probably reached by the most primitive system years ago. But we are insane. Not just illogical--nutty as a fruitcake. Of course, 90% of the deaths and injuries occur in low-income countries and self-driving will be a long time filtering down to them, but it still costs 3% of the rich country GDP on average, and hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of horrific injuries.

Elon's vertical approach offers the usual benefits and issues. The cart drives the horse far too often in vertically integrated companies, and Elon's word is law. Smart guy, but hey, Model X--the stupidest car since the Edsel, all because he fell in love with a door system because it was zooty, not because it was in any way practical. I'd consider buying a Model X with a sliding door like my primitive mommy van. But with the Falcon doors? No fucking way.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on May 24, 2021, 01:01:30 PM
This stuff is mind blowing. You guys may have saved me $10,000 to $15,000. I live in a small community in British Columbia, and while I wouldn't say we get frequent power outages, we do get them, and they are a pain. A number of people in our community have purchased natural gas powered generators. They are pretty slick in that they come on automatically the second the power goes out and they power most, if not all of the house. My wife and I have looked at them and have it on our "to do" list to get one of the sales reps out sometime this year.

But now, if in the not too distant future we can use a car to power our house, well that would be perfect. So I'm going to once again put the natural gas generator on hold and wait and see what happens with this feature in electric cars. This technology is brilliant.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: WingNut Ohana on May 24, 2021, 04:35:12 PM
Late to this thread, but I've put 105,000 miles on a Soul EV as my surf vehicle since 2015. So EV surf cars are already a reality.

Went and checked out the ID.4, Mustang Mach E, and Model Y last month. Any of those would be a good surf, SUP car.

As for EV's as power packs, here on Maui, we do get outages once a year or so. I've often looked at the battery pack in my EV, thinking it should get me through a couple of days of powering the house. So I got an inverter that clips onto the 12v battery. When needed, I just hook it up, turn on the EV and it'll power a few things around the house.

The F150 powering the house is a great killer app. Why pay the $10K for a powerwall when you can put that towards the extended range of the truck and get the bi-directional charger installed for free?

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 24, 2021, 05:25:43 PM
I was considering at least one, maybe two powerwalls for Ponohouse. I already have a fairly large PV installation. A powerwall would probably pay for itself about as quickly as the PV installation did--a little over 6 years--and that was back when PV panels were expensive. I spent 40K in my system, took all the tax credits and incentives which knocked that down to 31K, and took my monthly power bills from about $450 a month to about $30. The bills have recently started to climb because of the way net billing now works on Maui, the way the utility charges just for service charges, charging Diane's Volt, and a few other fiddles. Fortunately, my PV system has been installed for 15 years and has long ago turned a significant ROI. With big enough powerwalls and perhaps some added panels (cheap these days) I'd have the option to disconnect from the utility--I'd have to spend another 20K. But when/if Tesla quits dicking around I could pick up a model Y or the base level F150 Lightning and do the same thing. I expect Ford will carry the utility a lot further--they're being a bit restrained. There's no good reason to limit the discharge level to anything more than what is needed for daily transportation. With just a dinky powerwall I could make up for short periods where PV power is insufficient and the Truck is not connected.

I had a natural gas generator at my home in Portland. It was a great addition for a house in an area with frequent outages. Installing it pretty much guaranteed that we'd never have an outage--and we didn't.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on May 24, 2021, 07:46:59 PM
I had a natural gas generator at my home in Portland. It was a great addition for a house in an area with frequent outages. Installing it pretty much guaranteed that we'd never have an outage--and we didn't.

Too funny. I’m pretty sure this would be my luck as well.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 24, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Ford to 20.  Actually, Ford to 50 has more zing.  Let's go with that.

Could actually happen. They were trading at $6 a year ago, $13 today. for a company with all that legacy drag that's almost unheard of. And it's all from their EV position. Is there anyone--other than a few Facebook morons--who think ICE vehicles are still viable?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: peterp on May 24, 2021, 09:37:04 PM
Late to this thread, but I've put 105,000 miles on a Soul EV as my surf vehicle since 2015. So EV surf cars are already a reality.

Went and checked out the ID.4, Mustang Mach E, and Model Y last month. Any of those would be a good surf, SUP car.

As for EV's as power packs, here on Maui, we do get outages once a year or so. I've often looked at the battery pack in my EV, thinking it should get me through a couple of days of powering the house. So I got an inverter that clips onto the 12v battery. When needed, I just hook it up, turn on the EV and it'll power a few things around the house.

The F150 powering the house is a great killer app. Why pay the $10K for a powerwall when you can put that towards the extended range of the truck and get the bi-directional charger installed for free?

Our Nissan Leaf's 12V battery only gets power when driving - ie not from the 24kWh traction battery. It would run flat in about 10min if hooked up to the house. Looked at some commercially available bi-directional V2H options for the Leaf but they are prohibitively expensive - might as well just buy a freestanding extra battery - I only need about 10kWh to be off the grid 95% of the time. Our next EV has to have V2H built in or it will be off the list.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 25, 2021, 12:07:35 AM
Nissan did a pilot project on Maui for V2H, but shut it down after two years, very interesting, but the 20KWh battery was really not enough for practical use. They outfitted pilot participants with a bidirectional charger, inverter, and grid transfer switch. I don't think they collected the equipment when they killed the pilot, so there are some people with a sweet setup on Maui.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Chan on May 25, 2021, 01:58:13 PM
Committees, focus groups, endless meetings, managing a company like Ford seems nearly impossible to me.  Even corporate gurus would have to give due credit to Ford CEO, Jim Farley (oddly yes, cousin of the talented comedian Chris Farley) for Ford’s transformation.  He has managed to bring Ford into the modern era while preserving and improving its classic appeal.   All this while working with a legacy behemoth of bureaucracy, not a nimble new tech start up.  I’m really looking forward to owning a new F150 and seeing how this company evolves over the next few years.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: WingNut Ohana on May 25, 2021, 02:43:47 PM
What Ford is doing with the Mach E, and now the Lightening is very significant. From their own data, folks buying the Mach E are new customers to Ford. I suspect that the Lightening will do the same. This means they are stealing market share from other car makers!

VW is doing the same with their ID.3 & 4, here and in Europe. The legacy automakers are realizing that EV's are the way to grow their customer base.

Just wait for the Transit EV coming out later this year,  the Rivian R1, the Ioniq 5, and the EV 6. Our choice of EV's to bring our toys to the water is about to get very interesting.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 25, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
Actually the companies most likely to kick ass in the EV business all have Chinese names that most people have never heard of. It’s going to look and feel like Japan in the 70s. The USA and Europe have been ignoring the EV market too long. Most of the things that go into a US or Euro made EV come from china. Certainly the battery. There is no US company other than Tesla that builds EV batteries. Few that make a motor and control systems. Even the Japanese have just been toying with the category compare to the Chinese. I think there are about 600 car companies in China making EVs. Of those, more than a hundred are vertically integrated. None to the degree of Tesla, but you’d have to be insane or flat out dumb to think China bent over backwards to accommodate Tesla for any reason other than to have a handy target. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: peterp on May 25, 2021, 10:24:38 PM
Actually the companies most likely to kick ass in the EV business all have Chinese names that most people have never heard of. It’s going to look and feel like Japan in the 70s. The USA and Europe have been ignoring the EV market too long. Most of the things that go into a US or Euro made EV come from china. Certainly the battery. There is no US company other than Tesla that builds EV batteries. Few that make a motor and control systems. Even the Japanese have just been toying with the category compare to the Chinese. I think there are about 600 car companies in China making EVs. Of those, more than a hundred are vertically integrated. None to the degree of Tesla, but you’d have to be insane or flat out dumb to think China bent over backwards to accommodate Tesla for any reason other than to have a handy target.

Completely agree with this - I'm very surprised the Chinese haven't been more aggressive in pursuing foreign markets but maybe there are greater geo-political considerations at play. The biggest short term hurdle facing EV's is price - China has a knack for knocking out product cheaper than anyone else and seeing the effort they've put into the most expensive component (the battery) - they are surely lining up to steamroll the world markets? They have some tasty propositions already from BYD, Xpeng, NIO etc. But right now I'd take a Hyundai Ioniq 5 from next door - if only they were available here in South Africa. South African politicians have been bragging lately that South Africa has the highest proliferation of charging stations in relation to number of EV's of anyone in the world. We have one charging station for every 4 EV's (world average is 20). Which fades a bit when you realise we only have 250 charging stations......
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 26, 2021, 04:35:33 AM
All-electric vehicles have yet to crack 3% sales share in the US.  We are laggards, but not without reason.  Many of the available vehicles have been either too expensive or not "my car".  The tipping point is right in font of us, though.  Pricing parity with ICE vehicles (without any fancy pants formula or calculator) is essential - and we are there.  Keeping in mind that 76% of US auto sales are light trucks (Pickups, SUV's Vans) whoever produces the must-have vehicles in that category will win here.   "Light trucks accounted for a record 75.9% share of U.S. auto sales in 2020, up from 71.7% in 2019. In 2012, just eight years ago, trucks were 53% of the total."  https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/2020-truck-suv-car-sales-winners-and-losers/

Charging station concerns will vanish for most because they will realize that they will never visit one (never, not being an exaggeration).  I know that I have never been.  If Bill Gates would stop wasting all the chips in our arms we could get some of these cars to market. Damn pedos.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on May 28, 2021, 03:23:45 AM
Skip to 8:16 (or watch the whole thing.  This may be his first time in a truck but Marques is entertaining and deserves his 14 Million subscribers).  The range stats for these F-150's are EPA ratings with 1000 lbs of cargo.  Marques is seeing 360 Miles of range at 80% battery on his test truck and is calculating 459 Miles at 100%.  That would be remarkable.  Ford to 50.

https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on May 28, 2021, 11:06:44 AM
Brilliant. I watched the whole video and this is one impressive vehicle. I just hope they can now do something like this in a small Van or SUV. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on May 30, 2021, 12:38:02 PM
incredible -- love my 2019 foresters -- and im not a big truck person -- but clearly i have bought my last gas powered vehicle -- great vid -- short sweet and owned me.....

and who knows if itll be ford that compels in a couple years when im shopping, and i , too, will likely want a small van or suv, but clearly the products will keep wowing us......
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on May 30, 2021, 09:16:59 PM
I would break out in a rash if I bought another ICE vehicle. I spent the afternoon getting my race car ready for my last race in July. I thought I was done with this, but this year's Kastner Cup race is in Portland, and Kas did everyone the disservice of dying this year. Super cool guy, I want to be Kas when I grow up, but nope, not happening. So one more race. Today I got everything hooked up, added all the appropriate fluids, installed the distributor perfectly, farted around with a host of little issues, and then discovered:
A. I wasn't getting sparks all the time

and B: cylinders three and four have water in them.

So yeah, fuck me, I have to pull the cylinder head and see WTF the head gasket is doing. Electric cars don't have cylinder heads or head gaskets. they don't make 140 horsepower, they make like 600 horsepower and require maintenance every alternate millennium.

Grumpy.

Then I did a little welding for a friend and had nothing but problems. WTF is going on with my spool gun? I'm trying to weld aluminum and the weld is stacking up and burning. Is nothing working today? Well, it might work better if you had aluminum wire in the gun instead of stainless steel. Who put that in there!?! Oh, yeah, me.

So that was my day. How was yours.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: WingNut Ohana on May 30, 2021, 11:43:50 PM
incredible -- love my 2019 foresters -- and im not a big truck person -- but clearly i have bought my last gas powered vehicle -- great vid -- short sweet and owned me.....

and who knows if itll be ford that compels in a couple years when im shopping, and i , too, will likely want a small van or suv, but clearly the products will keep wowing us......

Go check out the the VW ID.4, The Hyundai Ionqui 5
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on May 31, 2021, 01:53:15 AM
I would break out in a rash if I bought another ICE vehicle. I spent the afternoon getting my race car ready for my last race in July. I thought I was done with this, but this year's Kastner Cup race is in Portland, and Kas did everyone the disservice of dying this year. Super cool guy, I want to be Kas when I grow up, but nope, not happening. So one more race. Today I got everything hooked up, added all the appropriate fluids, installed the distributor perfectly, farted around with a host of little issues, and then discovered:
A. I wasn't getting sparks all the time

and B: cylinders three and four have water in them.

So yeah, fuck me, I have to pull the cylinder head and see WTF the head gasket is doing. Electric cars don't have cylinder heads or head gaskets. they don't make 140 horsepower, they make like 600 horsepower and require maintenance every alternate millennium.

Grumpy.

Then I did a little welding for a friend and had nothing but problems. WTF is going on with my spool gun? I'm trying to weld aluminum and the weld is stacking up and burning. Is nothing working today? Well, it might work better if you had aluminum wire in the gun instead of stainless steel. Who put that in there!?! Oh, yeah, me.

So that was my day. How was yours.

Thanks Bill!
Your post made me smile. My day was interesting and vaguely weird .....how do you get a clean catch urine specimen from your 102 year old mother and then my wife calls me from 1000 kilometres away that our old dog is having troubles lifting his leg to pee (I have flown into the Covid North American epi-center). Such is life! While I wish it was not so, it is better than the alternative that your friend Kas has chosen. Monday I will fly/drive back home in my M3 electric surf(?) vehicle and Tuesday back out in the surf. I am insanely fortunate.

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: eastbound on June 01, 2021, 09:57:56 AM
funny -- stars have aligned for me of recent too -- ill spare you the details, but I am a very lucky human among wonderful humans -- go figure -- we know it cant be about Karma! age? wisdom? me? cant be that either LOL

and re electrics, i'm already converted around the house -- batt powered chainsaws, hedge-trimmers etc are so much more convenient for occasional homeowner use than gas-powered -- i will never again clean a gummed up carburetor, clean a fouled plug, spill gas on the ground, wrench my shoulder pull-starting, etc etc -- if heavier eqpmt isn't there yet, it will be soon

short all pops in crude oil, going forward




Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2021, 08:52:15 AM
The new Tesla Plaid is flat-out incredible. The quickest production car in the world is now a roomy, comfortable, five-passenger sedan with a 22 speaker sound system, a ridiculously advanced heat pump heating and air conditioning system, and all the features of a mega luxury car with the performance of a stripped-down performance car. Engineering at the "this comes from the future" level.

For any car guy, the notion of a single speed drive system that can go 0-60mph in less than two seconds with an average joe doing the driving and then continue that savage acceleration all the way to 200 mph simply seems impossible. The carbon-wrapped rotor required extreme tension in the windings so they built a machine to wrap it. Spins to more than 20,000 RPM and makes 1000 hp at 200 mph.

Impossible. Elon called it "limits of physics" engineering and quipped "physics sets the laws, everything else is a recommendation".

They also are taking a "required input is a software error" approach to all the control systems, which should lead to a car that you can just get in and say go. Shifting to reverse to exit your garage is a design error.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on June 11, 2021, 11:58:18 AM
Diving deep into the tech in the Plaid I realized how staggeringly far Tesla has come in nine years. And how ridiculously far ahead of everyone else they currently are and will still diverge from the pack. As good as the Ford F150 Lightning looks, anything Tesla does will incorporate technology that they built themselves, that has advanced at speeds that aren't even generally possible in the more mature corners of the general tech industry. Somehow they manage to shrug off legacy drag and progress at the speed of a clean-slate startup. It's really kind of spooky. The redundant computing power in a single current release Tesla is well into the supercomputer range of just a few years ago. The geek world went a bit nuts when Sony disclosed that the new PS5 would have 10.4 teraflops of processing power. The largest supercomputers achieved ten teraflops in 2002. Now there's a supercomputer in Japan that does 400 petaflops. Any computer that can do a petaflop is currently considered a supercomputer, and that is just 100 times faster than the redundant Tesla computer, which has separate neural network and image processing capabilities.

It's getting a bit nutty.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on June 13, 2021, 02:10:19 AM
This is a crazy vehicle.  Whacky science fiction stuff even a few years ago.  If it hadn't already been proven (it probably had) that EV's could outperform ICE counterparts, well, that is done now. 

Here is an interesting article on the groups that are currently producing or vying for full self driving.  https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/04/who-will-win-the-self-driving-race-here-are-8-possibilities/ 

Lots of different approaches but it is safe to say that there will be multiple players on the field.


Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 29, 2021, 03:38:44 AM
Her is a really nicely done review of the now shipping Rivian.  This thing is a beast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh1yihYQYew
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 29, 2021, 09:56:31 AM
This is going to be a fun one to watch.  R1 series, truck, SUV soon, (maybe a van), Rivian/Ford partnership, Rivian/Amazon relationship (you can't have their van), likely R2 series...all this and a looming IPO too.

Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on September 30, 2021, 09:45:06 AM
Here is another great video.  Starts with a lot of offroad footage (so cool with no noise) but ends showing off all of the features.  Some really impressive engineering on this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGqexebCcUo
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: robon on September 30, 2021, 10:38:21 AM
Wow, the Rivian looks like a very impressive start up. I’ve watched a few videos now and it is truly innovative and most importantly, nailed what most truck owners would likely want. Well, seemingly so and production models will tell the real story but this is what I would want out of an electric truck.  Ticks a lot of boxes.  The pass through storage feature and what you can do with it for camping and whatever else is genius. This is common place on travel trailers but the first time i’ve seen it on a domestic vehicle. The off road performance looks great and on road does as well. With big investment from Ford and Amazon, hopefully this vehicle will evolve and continue to get better.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on September 30, 2021, 11:47:53 AM
Unlike Tesla (having sold more than 200,000 units), Rivian is still eligible for the $7,500 tax credit.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: FRP on September 30, 2021, 01:02:48 PM
Yes the rebate here in Canada and the US makes a difference. We are looking at upgrading our model 3 to a Y to have a better vehicle for transportation of dogs and boards. At the moment however the wait time for a new Tesla is 6 months. This has created a very odd market in Vancouver where one or two year old 3s and Ys are selling for more than retail. The demand is coming to the tipping point. If the cost of buying a new EV drops now with new cheaper battery tech the demand will balloon. It appear that we are poised for a rapid change. Cheers Bob
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 07, 2021, 07:20:39 AM
Yes, we're sitting on the cusp of some very weird things in the vehicle world. A few years ago you'd be ridiculed for predicting that Toyota could go bankrupt. Now it's something close to a doctrine that unless they change course very soon they will collapse. I have my doubts about that, but they certainly will be harmed--have been harmed. The market for ICE cars is imploding quietly. If Tesla manages to realize their plans for robotaxis I expect it to be gutted. Ownership of personal cars will be optional for most people with no convenience penalty. In fact, in many cases, robotaxis will be far more convenient.

Watching the race for light truck supremacy is like watching a horribly slow race. No one ever had to be impatient for a new truck to be produced and available before. You just went to the dealerships and bought what they had on the lot. Any change was incremental and small. Now a few million light truck buyers are literally watching every move, waiting for the first deliveries of a mass-market electric truck. Ten percent of the entire vehicle market goes to the winner if they can manufacture them fast enough. Unprecedented. The change won't be just fanboys, the benefits for commercial vehicles is actually far greater than even the most aggressive pundit has expressed. Work trucks that power an entire jobsite, refill overnight at a fraction of the usual fuel cost, fundamentally never require maintenance or repair, carry more, pull more, with a lower TCO? Damn few work trucks get driven more than 40 miles a day. The battery size will be more about how long you can power the jobsite than how far you can drive.

It's fun to watch.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 08, 2021, 05:34:24 AM
Yup.  This first group of trucks is going to change the mass perception.  Another tipping point.  You just have to listen to the reactions of these guys.  They are exceeding expectations in every category.  Tesla, Ford, Rivian, possibly others.  These are such stupidly capable vehicles and they are the vehicles that we drive and want to drive. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdaC-HVd9Ww
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on October 08, 2021, 06:10:46 AM
Here are some interesting thoughts on how EV's will be "taxed" (in lieu of fuel taxes) in the near term.  For any of you "Bean counters" out there.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/new-fees-on-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles.aspx
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: starman on October 08, 2021, 10:24:56 AM
More numbers to chew on:

https://wolfstreet.com/2021/10/06/ugly-math-around-the-corner-as-gm-ford-other-legacy-automakers-throw-hundreds-of-billions-at-evs-only-auto-segment-thats-growing-tesla-made-them-do-it/
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on October 09, 2021, 07:48:23 AM
Wolf street article was great. Whether or not you agree it laid out some fundamental things that are true.

Best part was the comments. You could see the political stances which will affect investor decisions and cost people money, both ways. Hilarious to see human flaws so on display (“I don’t like socialism so I don’t think this will work”, “I think we need to save the environment so we must invest”) Decisions driven by belief, not the numbers.

Also quaint, “I live in (tiny market) X and no one wants an electric vehicle here.” As if markets and demand never change over overnight and don’t evolve elsewhere and then come to others.

It makes me sad that we’ve lost the ability to educate and think critically but also happy that there is still an edge available when investing.

Don’t want to derail the thread, post more cars/trucks, but just noting that.

The new VW van will be here next year and there’ll be a nicer version a year or two after that. Exciting if they keep the price moderate.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 09, 2021, 07:58:59 PM
There's really very little difference in Americans' ability to think critically, but there's a big difference in the ability to muster enough understanding for the critical thought to matter. I read a lot of history, it's hard to find critical thinking ability in any group, anywhere, any time. Belief is easy, thinking and understanding are hard and getting harder. People will believe almost anything that reinforces their existing beliefs, and reject anything that would diminish them. The underlying conundrum is that human knowledge is infinite, but individual capabilities are pathetically limited. The divide between what is possible through collective knowledge and what is understood on an individual basis is increasing exponentially. That makes it almost impossible to make an informed decision. At some point, people have to trust experts, and given our ruthless political system, that trust is hard to come by.

People say they don't want to be vaccinated because they don't have enough information. They're willing to gobble up endless nonsense but somehow they're going to sort through all the shit and understand how RNA vaccines function and how they affect the immune system?  I'm not going to hold my breath waiting--unless they're ranting without a mask.

I've heard what appear to be normal human beings parrot every myth about EV's that has ever been fed to them even when a little lightweight contemplation would drop the credence of the myth to nearly zero.

A few days ago a seemingly rational acquaintance told me lithium batteries are impossible to recycle. I didn't even try to mention the billion-dollar recycling facilities J.B. Straubel is building. I just said, "If you can dig ore out of the ground and turn it into batteries, doesn't it seem that dead batteries, which have all the stuff still present in far more refined form than ore, could be ground up and refined even more easily?" His answer was, "Well I don't know what the problem is, but I know it's impossible."

So...  ...okay. I couldn't argue with that.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: sup_surf_giant on December 23, 2021, 03:10:33 PM
FWIW, I put roof racks on my Model 3. The new 1.75" lift kit arrives next week. Putting 3" larger tires on it as well.

Will lose a little bit of range, but I can get down to San O without scraping!
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on July 07, 2022, 04:01:27 AM
I never saw myself lusting after a Kia or a Hyundai, but I'll tell you, the Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are amazing looking vehicles.  Anyone have any time in one?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on July 07, 2022, 10:55:46 AM
The biggest problem with EVs today is getting one. I have a model Y on order that keeps getting pushed back. I thought I was going to get it in May, but now it's august and maybe September and it's very likely that will change. Tesla is cranking out vehicles and utility batteries at an ever-accelerating rate, and it's not enough. I also have deposits on a Cybertruck and an F150 electric. Whoever can fill my order first get my bucks, though I'd probably keep the cybertruck on order even if I get a Y fairly soon. the market for these vehicles shows no sign of slowing so I could probably flip a Y as loaded as the one I ordered for a decent chunk of change more than I'll pay for it.

In the meantime, the tech is advancing at a breakneck pace.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 01, 2022, 07:01:10 AM
OK, So it took until 2023, but we "finally" took delivery on this Electric truck a few weeks ago.  Man, do I love it.  Getting in some bravery camping outside of the garage.  That self leveling feature is sweet! :).
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: surfcowboy on October 01, 2022, 07:46:08 AM
Admin, that's awesome. The features in these new rides are truly crazy. The last 10 years in car tech have been wild. Imagine the next 5.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 01, 2022, 10:41:36 AM
My wife and I are in the market for a new car for her. Her engine on her 1999 Mitsubishi full size Montero LS finally blew a head gasket at 250K+ miles. Same engine, same tranny. That was a great snow SUV / Tank. Yesterday we went to the Orange County Car Show. Learn a lot about the variety of hybrid's and full electric's. The new thing is 'P'Hybrid's and they are near impossible to get right now. The 'P' stands for plug-in. Almost all current hybrids can not be plugged in. The engine and brakes charge the batteries only. Till the past year or so, anything that plugged in was fully electric. These new 'P'-Hybrid's have a gas tank filler on one side and and a charging port on the other. You can opt to drive in all electric only mode where depending on the manufacturer you can drive for around 30 miles on the battery. Then plug it in at home. So never needing gas around town. On the highway using gas / electric you'll get around 35mpg. The cars we are looking at are small to mid size SUV's. Right now some / most of the Toyota dealers are charging around $8k over msrp, because they can. A RAV4 'P'-hybrid is around 12 month preorder time, so we were told? KIA's the same thing. Honda... ditto. Plus they are about $10k more than a gas only model.

Of course it has to have a bike rack hitch mount and roof racks. May just get a Subaru 8) No hybrid...
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 01, 2022, 01:18:14 PM
BTW, Nice truck. I've been seeing a lot of them. Rivian was the first E-truck to mass sales. Ford is on there tail. Tesla?? keep delaying what ever they will eventually bring to market resembling something of a truck. The Rivian is definitely a mid-size truck.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 02, 2022, 03:27:39 AM
Talldude,

I completely get the short range aspect.  I have mine set to only charge to 70% and I never use half of it.  In over a year with EV's I have still never filled at a charging station.  I just had the wall charger installed but I could have been fine with the trickle charger as well. 
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Califoilia on October 02, 2022, 01:03:03 PM
My wife and I are in the market for a new car for her. Her engine on her 1999 Mitsubishi full size Montero LS finally blew a head gasket at 250K+ miles. Same engine, same tranny. That was a great snow SUV / Tank. Yesterday we went to the Orange County Car Show. Learn a lot about the variety of hybrid's and full electric's. The new thing is 'P'Hybrid's and they are near impossible to get right now. The 'P' stands for plug-in. Almost all current hybrids can not be plugged in. The engine and brakes charge the batteries only. Till the past year or so, anything that plugged in was fully electric. These new 'P'-Hybrid's have a gas tank filler on one side and and a charging port on the other. You can opt to drive in all electric only mode where depending on the manufacturer you can drive for around 30 miles on the battery. Then plug it in at home. So never needing gas around town. On the highway using gas / electric you'll get around 35mpg. The cars we are looking at are small to mid size SUV's. Right now some / most of the Toyota dealers are charging around $8k over msrp, because they can. A RAV4 'P'-hybrid is around 12 month preorder time, so we were told? KIA's the same thing. Honda... ditto. Plus they are about $10k more than a gas only model.

Of course it has to have a bike rack hitch mount and roof racks. May just get a Subaru 8) No hybrid...
Chevy had the P-hybrid Volt out from 2011-2019, but discontinued it favor of their fully electric Bolt. A foil buddy bought a used Volt several years ago to replace his gas guzzling Jeep something-or-other, and loves it. It really is a very nice ride.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on October 02, 2022, 06:16:51 PM
TD - A possible way around the opportunistic dealer mark up is to buy the car through Costco’d car purchase program. Dealers have to sell it at list basically, and I think they do so, but by ordering the car instead of current inventory, so no getting around the 12 months…
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 03, 2022, 08:26:02 AM
We've had a Chevy Volt in Maui for years. Excellent car but I'm sure GMC never made a dime selling them. Too complex, and GMC's method of building cars is mostly assembling components from other manufacturers. No way to make a profit doing that with something as complex as a plug-in hybrid that sells at competitive prices.

The older Volt we have does about 30 miles on electricity, and we charge it from our solar panels. We buy gas for it about twice a year. I think the tank holds 9 gallons. Toward the end of our time in Maui (generally six months) we switch over to running on gas manually, to use up the gasoline and fill up with fresh gas plus stabil. Incredibly economical to run in Maui.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 03, 2022, 10:45:10 AM
I just pissed away a good chunk of my morning re-reading this thread. It's an interesting exercise. The ideas and attitudes towards EVs changed radically between 2020 and 2022. Reading the first posts it seemed most folks were tentative about ever getting an EV, 2 years later people are mostly concerned with how long the wait is going to be. I'm in that group, I've had a model Y on order for about a year. No delivery in sight.

I drove a model 3 and didn't like it at all, though the performance was excellent by every measure. Anyone who thinks ICE cars handle better than EVs would change their mind in a single drive of a model 3 on a twisty road. I've raced serious wings and slicks cars, and as bizarre as it sounds, the handling of the model 3 reminds me more of those cars than any high-performance street vehicle. My problem with the model three is that it doesn't fit me. I'm 6'2" and 220#. I don't consider that huge, but apparently, Tesla does.

So recently when we visited San Diego to see a friend and attend a concert We rented a model Y to see if I should cancel my order. Just getting in and out of the car convinced me I REALLY want one of these. I can enter the car without ducking under the edge of the roof, and there is at least six inches of headroom (more than a shaka). I drove it for three days and loved it. We drove back from the concert with four people in the car and everyone remarked about how much room they had and how comfortable the car is. I have a set of sea sucker racks waiting for a Y to put them on, but I probably won't need them for foiling. the interior volume is immense and with the seats down I measured sufficient room for an 8' surfboard.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 03, 2022, 11:46:28 AM
Fortunately for us, we still have an extra car (son's away at college) to use. No hurry here to get into a car payment while paying for two kids in college. Even if we had to wait a long time for one on order, that would be fine. Neither of us really commute, and everywhere we go is typically within 3 to 8 miles round trip from our house. It would be easy for me to add a 240V -50A charger as well.  Still running the numbers to see if we would actually save any money in the long run. Our friend who commutes in his Tesla had to replace his battery at 150K miles. It cost him $14K installed. Most of the manufacturers give you a 100K or 4 years warranty on the batteries for the P -hybrids and regular hybrids.   

BTW, I drove a friends Tesla model X ( same as the Y but has the Gull-wing doors and more fancy stuff) and I actually fit at 6'7, but just barely. My friend who has it is 6'4 and it fits him well. Drove it in the hands free auto mode on the freeway. Just touched the off ramp I wanted on the map and it started changing lanes on it's own. The 0 to 60 is roller coaster crazy fast, and I never put my foot on the brake the entire time I drove it. His model X was $100k / with the 5 years free charging package.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 03, 2022, 08:09:31 PM
Talldude, check out the Model Y. It might even make sense to rent one like I did and see if you are as comfortable in it and getting in and out as I was. It's actually easier than my F350 for me. Ridiculous headroom. Of course, if you want one you need to put in a deposit now if you want it any time in the near future. I'm still waiting--now Tesla is saying Mid October to late November. I expect that to roll out further. Though it would be typical for it to come available in November or December while I'm in Maui.

Oh, and Admin, it's still 2022.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 04, 2022, 04:35:06 AM
Oh, and Admin, it's still 2022.

How 'bout now?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on October 04, 2022, 06:01:21 AM
I really like what Chevy did with their bed.  https://us.yahoo.com/news/got-early-look-chevys-105-164308895.html

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/QYmbV.HXa1jy.KuneGh6PA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTc4ODtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/J.3kf5B0jVad5EM.bKj4oQ--~B/aD0yMDUyO3c9MjUwMDthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/business_insider_articles_888/84794965b042458a3050846b9d6ad5f7)

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/MiS8rEaJsIBLo68h39zt5Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTcyMDtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/sqtEI6.6NfqswuexjypODA--~B/aD0zMDI0O3c9NDAzMjthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/business_insider_articles_888/9fe892b35fc1b5865d336909b6f971f7)
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 04, 2022, 02:58:11 PM
Our friend who commutes in his Tesla had to replace his battery at 150K miles. It cost him $14K installed. Most of the manufacturers give you a 100K or 4 years warranty on the batteries for the P -hybrids and regular hybrids.

Tesla model S and X warranty 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. I don't quite understand why your friend needed to pay for a new battery. Diane's original Model S is now owned by a friend and he's approaching 200K miles and still has 86% capacity. YMMV.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 04, 2022, 09:20:55 PM
It's my wife's friends husband. He has a long commute every day. Maybe the charging cycles reduced the life? I read that Tesla batteries "should get" 300K to 500K miles. I don't think so... Another co-worker of my wife said he already replaced his Tesla battery. I don't know the mileage? I'll have her ask what the actual mileage was when these were replaced. My friend has a Jetta Hybid. It has two batteries. His batteries quit holding a charge (too low to work) at 55K. His warranty was to 50K. I just cost his $11K to replace both batteries??? I'm not so ready to jump on board just yet.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on October 05, 2022, 10:10:25 AM
Probably. The longest life is charging from 20% to 80%, charging to 100% decreases life a little. Elon says it's no big deal to charge to 100% except that regen braking won't work until the charge drops substantially--like back below 90%--and regen braking adds substantially to how far you can go on a charge. Tesla warrants batteries to have more than 70% capacity after 8 years or 150K miles, but a person doing long commutes would find that limiting. If you have a 300-mile range 70 percent is 210. I've read that people doing long drives frequently generally pay to replace their battery at 80 to 85 percent. If you do the math, gasoline to do 100K miles at 20 mpg and $5 per gallon is about $25K, for 150K it's $37,500. Depending on your cost for electricity replacing a battery for $14K is still economically reasonable though people never look at TCO when they're forking out that kind of money.

Plug-in hybrids have relatively small batteries and tend to get charged to a higher percentage of maximum (higher cell voltage) so they don't last.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: TallDude on October 09, 2022, 02:53:41 PM
My wife text her friend who's husband has the Tesla. She confirmed the battery was done at 150K and it was actually $17K all said and done P&L for the new battery installed. He does commute around a 100 miles 5 days a week from South Orange County to LA. He loves the car and it's still going strong. The car has been a commuter from day one.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Bean on October 10, 2022, 08:08:24 AM
Just keep in mind that when you consider total cost, currently there is no "road tax" on electric vehicles, but it's anyone's guess as to when that will change. ( I would guess between 5-10 years away but what do I know...)
In any event, "Currently, the federal tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon. The average state gas tax is 31 cents; it ranges from 8 cents per gallon in Alaska to 51.1 cents per gallon in California." CR
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Quickbeam on November 25, 2022, 12:28:00 AM
I never saw myself lusting after a Kia or a Hyundai, but I'll tell you, the Ioniq 5 and EV 6 are amazing looking vehicles.  Anyone have any time in one?

Been away from this site for awhile and wandered over tonight to take a look. So that's why I'm a bit late responding to your post Admin. But yes, we test drove the Ioniq 5 a few weeks ago and loved it. It is my one and only time in an electric vehicle, but both my wife and I were very impressed. So much so that we put a deposit down. I have been looking for a while as my Mazda 5 is reaching the end of its' life cycle and had been interested in the Ioniq 5. Finally found a place that actually had one we could test drive. Only problem now is that we are told it will be minimum two years wait. Also have to say what I'm reading here about the cost of battery replacement is more than a little concerning. It is something I had been aware of, but some of the sources I found said the cost of replacement was coming down (sorry, can't remember where I read that). I also asked the Hyundai sales guy and he quoted me a price of something like $4,800 Canadian to replace the battery on the Ioniq 5, although I didn't get clarification on which battery he was referring to, as they do offer two different batteries depending on the car you are getting.

Anyway, looks like I may need to do some digging into the actual cost of battery replacement and find out if Hyundai was telling the truth.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 25, 2022, 04:22:34 PM
Diane just got a new Tesla Model Y here in Maui, and I took her hand-me-down Chevy Volt. I sold my van to Stephen Ross--a fellow wingfoiler and all-around good guy though he speaks Canadian. The van was in great shape (I know...amazing huh) and super for all the water stuff I do, but surprisingly, so is the Volt. Chevy doesn't make them anymore but it's a pretty capable plug-in hybrid. The likely resale value of the $39K (new) Volt is less than $10K since no one wants to be caught holding the bag when the battery breathes its last, and from what I've seen it's a lot less.   With all the driving I do on Maui the 19mpg (when I behave) van was costing me $200 a week for gas. So about $5K per year (we're here for six months if you're checking my math). The Volt doesn't get as many miles on the battery as it used to, but it's still about 36 miles and then it's a hybrid so it averages 150+ mpg including the battery travel. We have a substantial solar system in Maui (which paid for itself in 7 years, but that's another story), so that's real-world mileage. It costs about $40 to fill the 9-gallon tank, and I've filled it once since I took over. At my current run rate, it will cost me about $700 a year to run. Not all my decisions are based on cost, but it's a nice little car, it's easier for me to get boards on the roof, and I'm saving about $4K a year driving it. Win, win, win.

In Hood River I replaced my F350, which I really didn't need anymore, with a Tesla Model Y. Spectacular car, easier to get in and out of than even my truck. Stunningly quick, and makes the $4k I'm saving in Maui look dinky. F350's are not cheap to operate or maintain, and diesel is expensive these days. It will likely be the last 4-wheel vehicle I ever buy, and While the $75K purchase price was not cheap (I opted for about everything, including the $12K full self-driving option, long-range 4wd dual motor, and a tow hitch) the $40K I got for the truck took a lot of the sting out, and that's before tax incentives. Electricity in the Pacific Northwest is cheap, so if I do solar it will be just for the hell of it, but a full charge at a supercharger is $14 and a full tank of Diesel is $230. It's a big 44-gallon tank, but it generally lasts me less than a week. At $7K a year the $35K difference breaks even in five years, and it's a lot more pleasant to drive, park, load up, and I can get into it without a step stool.

YMMV, but these vehicles are getting downright practical.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 28, 2022, 12:27:56 PM
I think the model Y is the fugliest car Tesla makes--it looks like someone grafted an old VW onto a model 3. But damn, what a great car. Amazingly comfortable, has great features, and carries enough stuff to please even me. And has a totally ridiculous level of performance, even in the long-range version.

At the other end of the spectrum, the model X looks pretty spiffy, but if I was given one I'd sell it as fast as I could. A pathetic excuse for an SUV with an extreme emphasis on form over function.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: sup_surf_giant on November 28, 2022, 12:31:25 PM
48xxx on our 2019 Model 3 (glass roof gives me extra headroom!)

I've replaced tires 1x, added wiper fluid and added roof racks.

Cost per mile drive = $0.06

Cost per mile to drive our hybrid Rav4 = $.14

Cost per mile to drive our 03 Toyota Sequoia V8 = $.41
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Dusk Patrol on November 28, 2022, 04:34:18 PM
Cost per mile drive = $0.06

Cost per mile to drive our hybrid Rav4 = $.14

Cost per mile to drive our 03 Toyota Sequoia V8 = $.41

For someone who has been driving Toyota V8s of various sorts for decades (me), this is verging on persuasive.   
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: sup_surf_giant on November 28, 2022, 04:40:28 PM
Cost per mile drive = $0.06

Cost per mile to drive our hybrid Rav4 = $.14

Cost per mile to drive our 03 Toyota Sequoia V8 = $.41

For someone who has been driving Toyota V8s of various sorts for decades (me), this is verging on persuasive.

For context, our electricity costs are $.24 per kWh. Unleaded 87 has been around $5-$7 for the past year or so. California.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on November 29, 2022, 12:13:47 AM
Giant--you should at least sit in a Model Y. I think it's made for big guys. I'm a shorty at only 6'2" but I have at least 6 inches of clearance with the seat in its highest position.

Electricity in Hood River is .09 per KWh residential, and .05 commercial/industrial. We sit between two of the largest hydro dams on the planet. charging my model Y from 20 percent to 90 percent is five bucks at home, and $2.80 at my shop. Or I could top off my F350 with diesel to cover the same 250 miles for about $135.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: sup_surf_giant on November 29, 2022, 05:22:47 AM
Giant--you should at least sit in a Model Y. I think it's made for big guys. I'm a shorty at only 6'2" but I have at least 6 inches of clearance with the seat in its highest position.

Electricity in Hood River is .09 per KWh residential, and .05 commercial/industrial. We sit between two of the largest hydro dams on the planet. charging my model Y from 20 percent to 90 percent is five bucks at home, and $2.80 at my shop. Or I could top off my F350 with diesel to cover the same 250 miles for about $135.

I’d love a Model Y!!! I’ve driven one. However, I’d need a new career and a new salary to get there. 😅

Had to fill up the Sequoia last night. Even at lower $4.99 per gallon prices, the pain was real.
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2022, 12:36:25 PM
Looks like this is happening.  I would put my name on the list today if there was a list.

(https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/2022/07/2205-MT-Future-Cars-Rendering-Rivian-Adventure-Van.jpg?fit=around%7C875:492)

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-rivian-adventure-van-electric-off-road-overland-camper-rv/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: bigmtn on December 12, 2022, 12:08:06 PM
Pono do you have any problems with your batteries if your car sits for 6mo without use?
Title: Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2022, 06:52:01 PM
Nope. I charge them to 50 percent and just leave them. Lithium batteries have a very slow self-discharge rate. On the Teslas with a more sophisticated charging interface we set the max charge to 50% and leave them plugged in. the Volt is less sophisticated so run it on the battery until it's 50 percent and leave it unplugged. I usually put a battery tender on the 12V AGM auxiliary battery, but that might be overkill. Apparently for Teslas, it's a good idea to get the system to charge the auxiliary battery from time to time. We've been using the remote app to turn the AC or heater on from time to time since running auxiliaries makes the dc-dc converter top off the auxiliary battery. I have no idea if that's important, but my wife does it because someone told her it was a good idea.
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