Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on August 19, 2019, 05:58:59 AM

Title: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 19, 2019, 05:58:59 AM
Stoked to have some Axis foils on the way!  I recently spent a little time on a 28.5" (72.4 cm) GoFoil mast and found that a lot more comfortable (less twitchy) than the 32" that I have been using.  It makes leveling out so much nicer.  I didn't want to go back to the longer mast :).  I ordered 3 masts (all right around 100 bucks) to dial that in (60, 68, 75).  I see a lot of riders on ~65 (25.6") and I want to check that out.  It is amazing how a (seemingly) little mast length can change things.  I really like the simple modualrity of the Axis design.  It will be cool to check that out and see how these things work.   More parts!  Chan is thrilled :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 19, 2019, 06:34:37 AM
I hope you ordered a base plate for each mast. Thatís how I roll. I have a rack of masts in my van. Grabbing the length needed for the conditions.

Youíll want to cut up a beer can and use that to shim the base plate to the mast tight. Hammer it on. Then never take it apart. They donít fit tight by design anymore, from most brands. Too many kooks complained about not getting them apart when they were designed tight. I know of only one brand that press fit the base plates on the mast and supplied them with each mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 19, 2019, 07:58:16 AM
Hey Dwight.  I hadn't thought about that.  Are you changing mast length a lot?  I was thinking I would experiment a little and see which felt best and then stay there for a while.   What length have you been using with the wing?  What foil sizes?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 19, 2019, 09:02:15 AM
My experience is all surfing based....still no 5m Duotone.

I use a 70cm mast on Neil Prydeís biggest wing most often. Iíd switch to 75cm on bigger days or wind blown days, if I had one. Thatís when the wing breaches are more likely. 65-70cm reacts quicker surfing.

With my Axis 102 Iím using the 75cm. The idea is to wing sail it. Maybe SUP surf it on small days. I think wing sailing downwind will mean sloppy seas, so longer is better. Maybe even 80cm. Iíd cut one to hit 80cm. Donít care for 90cm, unless kite racing. So far, Iíve only taken the Axis for a spin with my kite. It didnít like being driven by a kite. Too stiff handling for such a small board (20Ē wide). The big NP wing is much looser, but itís smaller.

There is no need to be higher than necessary. I just want to foil with minimal ricochets off the water. Whatever mast it takes to hit that goal. Although when mixing in wind power, a longer mast lets you heel the board over steeper and that makes it point much higher upwind. Thatís why I go long for racing upwind.

I windsurf 80cm mast. Custom cut for Slingshot Infinity 76 wing.

So you need a full rack of masts in the van  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 19, 2019, 05:17:01 PM
Great info.  I am stoked to check out the different sizes.  I had a great day on my old 82 cm mast today (really nice 20-25 on my 4 meter wing) but I have to be very gentle with my front foot.  Push down and let up a little too much and it can really go drive-wild.  The 72 is much more mellow like that.  Don't get me wrong, it is exciting to feel that acceleration but I could stand a middle ground :).  Our group was ear to ear grins today.  This sport is stupid fun!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 19, 2019, 08:05:24 PM
I needed either 5 more mph of wind or a 5M (I sound like a broken record--is that even a useful metaphor anymore??) but yeah. Now that we're getting up and going long distances on the foil it's getting downright giddy.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 25, 2019, 02:29:21 AM
Cool video from Axis.  Adrian talks about their mast and shows the connection system.   Nice.

https://www.facebook.com/thekitemaginternational/videos/489265838315751/
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 26, 2019, 05:34:07 PM
I was very stoked to see my Axis stuff at my door today.  No wind today so a great afternoon for tinkering. 

I am very happy with how this stuff all assembled and there were a few surprises as well.  The slightly larger Axis wings (1020 and 920) are insanely light in comparison to my GoFoil wings (Go Foil M200 and Iwa).  This got me pretty stoked when I was setting up because I thought it was possible that even with the aluminum masts/fuselage of the Axis that the weight might be pretty close.  But I was really surprised that my largest complete Axis assembly (wings, fuselage, mast, board mount and hardware) ended up being 1.4 lbs lighter than the complete carbon Go Foil.  I believe the 1020 wing is actually bit larger overall than the M-200 and I have the 500 stabilizer and the longest Axis fuselage.  On the other side I do have the Tuttle adapter on the GoFoil.  So, not an exact apples to apples match but similar enough that I found it interesting.  So stoked to check this out on the water!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 26, 2019, 06:33:03 PM
I thought my SUP was more stable with the Axis under me, than any other foil Iíve tried. Iíd be curious if you feel any difference.

I did try the 440 rear wing with the 102 and didnít like the feel. The 500 rear felt better matched. I know some people love smaller rear wings, but I like my loads more balanced between the wings. I dislike putting my rear foot behind the mast to make a foil trim out.

I would like to try a shorter fuselage. Maybe Iíll get one when I splurge on the 1000 front wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 27, 2019, 01:26:53 AM
I have a Neil Pryde foil, Gofoil with 29.5 mast plus plate adapter and and an Axis 1020.
I think the NP foil is just as stiff as the Axis and the Gofoil is just a little less stiff.

All the other brands I tried including the Gofoil 28.5 mast were a no go for me.
I want to have a small board and that is only possible (for me) with a stiff foil.

The baseplate of my NP foil is stuck permanently on the mast and I really like it that way, I think the same will happen with my Axis mast and plate eventually.
I guess I will have to order 2 more baseplates for my 2 other masts to be ready for that.

Perhaps I should go the beer can shim route to get rid of the last bit of play between the mast and the plate...

I have the standard fuselage  and the 440 , I wanted to get the 400 first perhaps I should get the 500...
I  also want to get a shorter fuselage, hope the new fuselages will come out soon.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2019, 02:18:48 AM
Interesting.  The standard Fuselage (~20.5 inches) on the Axis is 2.5 inches longer than the fixed fuselage on the GoFoil (~18 inches).  3 inches of "fuselage" is fused to the stabilzers on the GoFoil so I am measuring each to the junction of the actual wings.  From the specs the Axis Short fuselage is very similar in length to the Go Foil's fixed fuselage (.4 inch shorter).  The specs are a little odd here because they measure the whole of the fuselage including the mounts (which sit on the wings)  which would make it tricky to compare to another brand.  The 500 stabilizer looks a bit smaller overall than the Iwa all in (but the dimensions are very different shorter, larger chord, etc). 

The Axis wings are really impressive.  The max thickness is more constant than on the similarly sized GoFoils and the max thickness is a bit further from the leading edge as well.  The go Foils (M-200 and Iwa) are are thicker than the Axis at the mid line but thin more quickly as they move outwards.  I wonder if the 1020 will lift a bit more than the M 200.  Most interested to see if it is less work to keep flying when it is marginal.

Soekip, what was not working for you on the GoFoil 28.5.  I am not understanding what you wrote.  Does that mast flex more than the 29.5?

DW what are your plans for the 1000? 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 27, 2019, 04:09:24 AM
I think the 1000 and 900 wings will work better being powered by wind. They wonít fight the speed.

I also geeked out on comparing wings in the beginning. Calipers on all my wings, noting thickness, max draft location, spread sheets, etc. My hope was that Iíd learn something and be able to look at a wing and tell if it would suit me. Boy was I wrong!

I even dreamed of finding one brand that would work for all my sports. Jacky and I would share the foil quiver parts, and weíd be set. I was wrong again!

I have to ride everything and pick and chose the cherry wings. The best I can hope for is to reduce the foundations I work with. Neil Pryde and Axis for surfing, kiting, winging, and Slingshot for windsurfing.

Did you notice Adrain said the Axis 900 was designed for windsurfing. It just happens to be awesome for downwinding. Big clue right there. Wing ding wing! It wonít fight the speed. It should run smooth and steady being pushed hard.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2019, 04:47:20 AM
That 900 is a beautiful looking wing but it is much smaller (1184 outline).  That sounds like a lot of work!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on August 27, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
I think the 1000 and 900 wings will work better being powered by wind. They wonít fight the speed.

I also geeked out on comparing wings in the beginning. Calipers on all my wings, noting thickness, max draft location, spread sheets, etc. My hope was that Iíd learn something and be able to look at a wing and tell if it would suit me. Boy was I wrong!

I even dreamed of finding one brand that would work for all my sports. Jacky and I would share the foil quiver parts, and weíd be set. I was wrong again!

I have to ride everything and pick and chose the cherry wings. The best I can hope for is to reduce the foundations I work with. Neil Pryde and Axis for surfing, kiting, winging, and Slingshot for windsurfing.

Did you notice Adrain said the Axis 900 was designed for windsurfing. It just happens to be awesome for downwinding. Big clue right there. Wing ding wing! It wonít fight the speed. It should run smooth and steady being pushed hard.
DW- I love the Slingy Infinity 76 with the 29"mast for kiting. I feel like I am doing a totally different sport than most of the kitefoilers I see. I like to go slow and completely shut the kite off and pump around downwind in search of bumps to slash. I also ride the time code 68 to do this but prefer the 76. There is a magical wind speed where there is no pull from the kite and I feel like I just pumped out to the middle of the lake. Most other kiters seem to be on smaller foils with a longer mast going really fast. That's fun too but once I outrun the bumps, I feel like I am throwing away a precious resource.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 27, 2019, 07:17:28 AM
Does that mast flex more than the 29.5?

Yes, a lot more
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2019, 07:41:11 AM
Huh.  When I read stiffer on the GoFoil site I though they were comparing to the smaller 24 inch with the same Tuttle attachment, not to the 28.5.  That is wild.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: JEG on August 27, 2019, 02:22:49 PM
I have the GoFoil 28.5 mast and I'm 80kg and its fine with IWA and M200 and I'm guessing if you are heavier than me I would get the 29 masts and to match with M280. It will be interesting to see those have 28.5 masts combining with the new GL wings like the 180, 210 & 240 & anyone done this combo and what's your weight?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:59:52 PM
I'm going to run a pretty little bead of weld on my adapter to mast. No beer cans required, just a 250 amp TIG.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 28, 2019, 01:41:44 AM
What about epoxy to bond the mast and plate forever?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 28, 2019, 03:30:55 AM
Welding will kill any temper in the aluminum. I assume the mast has a T6 temper.

Epoxy doesnít stick to aluminum very well.

Beer (Rockstar Organic can for me) can sounds crazy, but works awesome. Cans are so thin, you can trim any excess aluminum sticking out, with a simple carpet knife. I never knew modern cans cut as easy as paper until I did this.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 05:38:47 AM
Easy to retemper it, but I wouldn't. It's probably 6061, might be T6. If I were aiming for maximum strength I'd age it at 350F for four hours or 400 for one hour depending on how long I could expect my wife to be away from the kitchen (actually I have a kiln, but I wouldn't fire it up for this). But short welds, thick metal--I wouldn't bother and the anodizing might darken. The heat-affected zone will be small and in an area where the metal is doubled up. I'd be loathe to weld in the middle of the mast, but at the adapter--no problem. And there are lots of epoxies that do very well with aluminum, especially anodized--most developed for aerospace and motorsports. Gorilla Glue's competing product to JB Weld is in that family and works like gangbusters on aluminum. I just used some yesterday to make an aluminum frame for a light that I didn't want to weld.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2019, 06:17:25 AM
Hi guys, 

I know that there is a sliver of extra room on insertion but it seems to tighten down really well with the torx driver.  I am not seeing or feeling any movement in mine by hand.  Are you guys feeling any slop on the water?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 07:34:57 AM
Your hand is putting perhaps 20 pounds of torque on the thing. You can resist that by shimming with Parmesan cheese if it's well-aged.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2019, 09:01:13 AM
Are you feeling any slop on the water?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 09:22:30 AM
with the 280--lots. Of course I think my fuselage is cracked vertically. I felt some with the axis and the 1020, but I have a 90cm mast, so I don't know if it's actual slop or just me wobbling around on a too-tall unicycle.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 28, 2019, 11:25:17 AM
Donít check it with the bolts installed. Check it without. You paid for top of the line engineering with that fuselage connection, then throw it away on the plate connection. No way! Hammer that sucker on.

BTW, surfed the Axis today in waist high, sloppy windy surf. After surfing my Neil Pryde. So back to back test. For sure, the Axis made my board more stable than the Neil Pryde. Axis is my new gold standard for easy pee zee on a SUP.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 29, 2019, 02:51:33 PM
The Axis 102 in 15mph wind today. My first day in enough wind to actually ride the wing ding.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1w2xrdHMkN/?igshid=1h32uejwikuub
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: gone_foiling on August 30, 2019, 01:48:19 PM
Looking awesome Dwight! Is that 5m wing? I am on the gulf coast so looking for the right weather to take mine out. Stay safe for Dorian.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 30, 2019, 02:53:23 PM
Yes 5m. Wind about 15 mph
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 30, 2019, 07:43:55 PM
OK, I finally got a session on this Axis kit...and it's love.  What a difference.  3 hour session and I didn't want to quit.  So freaking fun.

So, how do I shim these adapters on?  Dwight, did you do a "U" with your cut beer can or something else?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 30, 2019, 08:37:46 PM
Was out today on my DW 5'11"x 28" and the Axis 102 in Miami Beach so I was able to ride the wind chop and was really stable in over 20 knots of wind. Ended up eventually going on a 5 meter kite with an impulse foil so I found there isn't really anything now that I can't paddle in with the Axis foil.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2019, 09:43:23 PM
Today was a good day. I started out on the GoFoil M280, which was working pretty well but demanded intense focus to keep it from porpoising into an overfoil or a slam-down. After a few too many overfoil faceplants I decided to switch to the Axis 1020 even though I think the 90CM mast is a bit of a handful and I haven't received my new bits yet.

The Axis is harder to get up on, but once I was up it was smooth and easy. With the 280 if I try to move either foot I'm doomed, with the axis I could fiddle around quite a bit without drama, and I was able to edge toward the middle of the board to go downwind and try jibing. Almost made it a couple of times.

Of course, I had the eventual overconfidence slam down. I was up on a starboard tack, where I still have a lot less control than is desirable. Just as I was congratulating myself for my mastery of the starboard tack I went out of control, foolishly tried to save it, and wound up diving off the board into my wing, smacking myself briskly in the mouth with the boom. I floated around a bit, recovering, did one more run across the river and called it good since the wind was getting punky. Of course as soon as I had taken all my stuff apart the wind picked back up. Oh, well, tomorrow.

Admin was showing some style, with lots of air between his board and the water. He did a run that was reminiscent of a stone skipping across the water. But we both made serious progress today and were babbling about our progress, complete with arm gestures, circles and arrows.

Chan has determined she needs a full set of Axis stuff. Today's success might push their combined gear bill into five figures.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 30, 2019, 10:23:08 PM
Pono, you need a shorter masts for sure. I have the 68 cm for normal riding and then the 45 cm for shallow breaks. Wasn't sure if the 45 cm would be too short but I can still pump it a bit, just not as easily to pump as the longer mast and I have to do a bunch more little pumps to equal one or two pumps from the longer mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 31, 2019, 03:21:19 AM
Bill, Iím surprised you havenít cut and retapped that mast already.  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 31, 2019, 03:34:07 AM
OK, I finally got a session on this Axis kit...and it's love.  What a difference.  3 hour session and I didn't want to quit.  So freaking fun.

So, how do I shim these adapters on?  Dwight, did you do a "U" with your cut beer can or something else?

U didnít work for me. I cut pieces for each side. Put them in the base. Made them tall and sticking out. Slid mast in and hammered. Trimmed excess aluminum sticking out with carpet knife. I think my Axis only needed aluminum one side. My Slingshot needed it both sides.

When I did this trick to my Slingshot base, one aluminum piece slid down and under the mast, but still smashed flat. I had a little aluminum blocking the bolt hole. But no worries because the aluminum is like paper. Stuck the knife in the bolt hole and dug the aluminum blockage out.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 31, 2019, 03:35:31 AM
Axis 1020, Standard Fuselage, 500 tail, 68 Mast.  I spent the first half hour mostly surface bound and feeling very tentative but over the course of the next hours I started to relax into it and trust what it wanted to do.  The first thing that I noticed is the dramatic lessening of drag.  Even when surface bound this feels so sleek.  It picks up surface speed really well.  The increase in lift is very evident over the Maliko 200 and at at first this felt like it would be too much.  But that was thinking about it from my old foil perspective where a lot of lift = scary shit happening.  The Axis setup lifts so smoothly and leveling off is much more of an unconscious deal than a dramatic requirement.  The best part is that it feels like this foil increases the size of your dance-floor.  Minor missteps are not catastrophes.  That takes some getting used to but I love it.  I am slowly getting over my Post Aggressive Foil Syndrome. 

We did place another Axis order last night with a third wing for Chan (an 820 to add to the 920 and 1020) as well as enough kit to make three wing, fuselage, stabilizer steps that can stay assembled.  Those travel really nicely.  We keep masts on the boards so we will usually be two screws away from ready.  Bye, bye mallet. 

Bill and I had our first foiling pass-by on opposite tacks.  That must be a good sign.  We were both yelling something into the wind.  I think Bill was screaming, "Ipswich Watermelon" and I'm pretty sure I was saying, "I'm happy".
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2019, 06:29:41 AM
Bill, Iím surprised you havenít cut and retapped that mast already.  ;D

I thought of it, but decided it might be useful someday.

Admin--It was indeed "Ipswich Watermelon?" But it was a question. And I thought you said "I'm sappy" which didn't seem to merit further comment.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 31, 2019, 09:27:33 AM
Found some more video from the first day with the 5m and Axis. You can see how easy it pumped back into the air.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B11boWfHpY0/?igshid=13j0m7irbms8r
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2019, 09:08:55 PM
You can imagine what I have to do at 235 pounds to get up with a four-meter. And why I hate your guts right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB1a49TqWQ8
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hilly on September 01, 2019, 12:36:39 AM
You can imagine what I have to do at 235 pounds to get up with a four-meter. And why I hate your guts right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB1a49TqWQ8
I have the 4m and at 105kg with the Armstrong 2400 it gets up super easy.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 01, 2019, 02:24:48 AM
At this point I should introduce the BDF (Babcock Drag Factor).  It is a multiplier that should be applied to any undamaged product  in relation to that same product being owned and used by Bill.  On his Axis Foils I am setting the BDF at 1.5 to account for the fact that it has flown from his truck bed at highway speed and is now covered in silver tape which he casually smooths back down each time before launching.  One guy came up to him on the beach while we were rigging and (smiling) asked Bill, "Watcha got under there?" :).  His 4 meter Duotone looks now like a hobo's hanky.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 01, 2019, 04:08:22 AM
I already feel 5m is NOT too big. What was that B.S. about 4m being the only size we need.  >:(

Where are the 6 and 7 meter wings  >:(

I just want to float down wind and feel like 80 lb Banzai Grom
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 01, 2019, 06:06:56 AM
At this point I should introduce the BDF (Babcock Drag Factor).  It is a multiplier that should be applied to any undamaged product  in relation to that same product being owned and used by Bill.  On his Axis Foils I am setting the BDF at 1.5 to account for the fact that it has flown from his truck bed at highway speed and is now covered in silver tape which he casually smooths back down each time before launching.  One guy came up to him on the beach while we were rigging and (smiling) asked Bill, "Watcha got under there?" :).  His 4 meter Duotone looks now like a hobo's hanky.

Ridiculous overstatement. Two patches and a new bladder. My hankies look MUCH worse than that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 05, 2019, 01:20:36 PM
That big (1020cm) Axis wing really is awesome for learning to wing ding. I have faster and better turning wings, but nothing this easy for getting the hang of wing dinging.

This is day 3. This day was less work on the arms. I guess my feel for the Duotone is improving enough, the strain is going down a lot.

We are having post hurricane off shore wind. So Iím doing some pretend wave riding in the Banana River. Wind is 12-17 mph. 5m wing.

https://youtu.be/wdsJMnvdJp4
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 05, 2019, 10:36:47 PM
Impressive. If that was an M280 you'd be bouncing up and down like a porpoise in light air like that. the axis foil is smooth. I like the GoFoil GL 240 almost as well, now that I've learned how to get it up and flying. The foot position is completely different from the 280 (duh).

I just got a shipment of Axis stuff. Three masts, a shorter fuselage, a new 1020 to relieve the one I have patched back together, and a 440 tail. I'm going to modify the old road rash 1020 for a bit more lift and stability, I'm going to make a 1080 gullwing out of it. Now, all we need is some wind.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2019, 12:20:58 AM
Impressive. If that was an M280 you'd be bouncing up and down like a porpoise in light air like that. the axis foil is smooth. I like the GoFoil GL 240 almost as well, now that I've learned how to get it up and flying. The foot position is completely different from the 280 (duh).

I just got a shipment of Axis stuff. Three masts, a shorter fuselage, a new 1020 to relieve the one I have patched back together, and a 440 tail. I'm going to modify the old road rash 1020 for a bit more lift and stability, I'm going to make a 1080 gullwing out of it. Now, all we need is some wind.

That is pretty interesting about your feet on the 240.  I am thinking that wing foilers may have different priorities than pumpers.
 I know that I sure want to pump as little as necessary.  On the Axis 1020 I didn't notice that any foot position change was required from the GoFoil 200.  The Axis was just much better mannered in that position.  Smooth lift with sustained cruise.  Nice!
 We have been on the East Coast for the last week and I am stoked to get back for a second day on this kit.  We have the other tail sizes arriving today as well.  We will see how those go on the smaller front wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on September 24, 2019, 05:09:50 AM
Where are you ordering your Axis foils from?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 24, 2019, 05:21:07 AM
We went through the website.  They have been quick and awesome to work with.  https://axisfoils.com/collections/all-sup
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 24, 2019, 05:57:50 AM
Also https://live2kite.com/

Same business. They distribute Axis.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on September 24, 2019, 06:20:43 AM
Also https://live2kite.com/

Same business. They distribute Axis.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on October 21, 2019, 04:18:17 PM
Just picked up an axis set with a 900 wing. Wondering which of the bigger wings you guys prefer now? 1000 or 1020? And why? What's your daily driver?

I'm probably going to put in an order for a different size mast (got 68 and 90, but want the 75 for prone foiling), and a bigger wing, just can't decide which or if I should just stick with the 900.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 21, 2019, 07:33:26 PM
depends a lot on your weight. I like the 1020 but I'm 235.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 22, 2019, 01:12:40 AM
Just picked up an axis set with a 900 wing. Wondering which of the bigger wings you guys prefer now? 1000 or 1020? And why? What's your daily driver?

I'm probably going to put in an order for a different size mast (got 68 and 90, but want the 75 for prone foiling), and a bigger wing, just can't decide which or if I should just stick with the 900.

How heavy are you Big?  Will this be for Winging and surf foil?  The 1020 is awesome as a lighter wind wing for Winging at my 170 lbs.  Chan uses the 920 in this same wind and she is tiny.  The 1000 needs a little more wind. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on October 22, 2019, 10:34:47 AM
165-170ish, thinking more for with a wing. I'd use the 900 in the surf.

I'm assuming you like the 1020 better because it doesn't drop out at slow speeds like the higher aspect wings do. Was thinking the 1020 would be better when the wind is lighter, and then the 900 when its cranking. (I have a 4.2 swing) Just wanted to hear others thoughts and experiences with the 2 wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 22, 2019, 12:02:50 PM
165-170ish, thinking more for with a wing. I'd use the 900 in the surf.

I'm assuming you like the 1020 better because it doesn't drop out at slow speeds like the higher aspect wings do. Was thinking the 1020 would be better when the wind is lighter, and then the 900 when its cranking. (I have a 4.2 swing) Just wanted to hear others thoughts and experiences with the 2 wings.

You nailed it. Both wings complement each other perfectly like that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 22, 2019, 05:58:42 PM
I'm thrilled with the results of the Fatboy Axis. I used the 1020 today in blistering winds at Roosevelt in the Gorge (gusts to 40) because I thought using a 4.0M Duotone would push the 1020 along nicely. It did, but in the big swells I was bouncing around a lot even up on the foil, and I had to concentrate on what the foil was doing as well as trying to keep the wing under control in the gusts and trying to keep from getting wiped off the board with a big bump. I wound up coming down a lot more than I would have liked. After I was pretty thoroughly exhausted I came in and decided to do one more run with the Fatboy. Swapped it out, went back out, and ***+++NIRVANA+++****. Seriously, it was so awesome. As soon as I got pointed right and got the wing calmed down and pulling I just bent my knees and I was up. Zoomed across the river without a tap. I even managed to shuffle around on the foil a but to get the trim a little nicer.

I almost nailed a foiling jibe but it got a bit wet at the end. Got back up, flexed the knees and blasted back across the wide river. I played around a lot, turning downwind on the big bumps and riding them, then turning back and going hard upwind to regain lost ground. I overdid the upwind a couple of times and stalled out, but I was high enough to pivot the foil downwind before it came down, and then swoop to regain speed without touching down. That feels fantastic.

I'm certain what I was feeling is the same thing any 195 pound rider of similar skill level feels on a 1020. I might have gained a little roll stability in addition to more lift with my wanky gullwing design. But basically it just gets my fat ass up off the water without drama or much pumping, and I can ignore the foil and concentrate on the other fifteen things you need to think about in this sport.

When we get out of the water on days like this we just babble at each other. It's been a long time since I got this excited about mastering the basics of a sport. Foils surfing came close, but wing foiling feels like it opens the door to endless possibilities.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 22, 2019, 06:51:58 PM
165-170ish, thinking more for with a wing. I'd use the 900 in the surf.

I'm assuming you like the 1020 better because it doesn't drop out at slow speeds like the higher aspect wings do. Was thinking the 1020 would be better when the wind is lighter, and then the 900 when its cranking. (I have a 4.2 swing) Just wanted to hear others thoughts and experiences with the 2 wings.

Hi Big,

We are the same weight.  It was blasting today (and completely freaking awesome).  I used the 920 and it was perfect.  I would have been getting too much lift from the 1020.  It is an incredible wing but it has its limit.  Chan was out on the 820 and I grabbed her board and took a few (failed) runs on that wing.  Neither of us are in love with the 820 yet.  I really like the 920.  The 1000 is awesome but it overlaps the 1020 quite a bit and it really wants to be powered.  It is incredible when it is relatively smooth water or when you can keep pumping it.  When it gets super choppy and the swell is big it becomes a bit more work.  Probably awesome for running downwind on swells but more work for playing in place.  I only have a few runs on the 900 so far so I can't really comment on that one.  I don't think you can go wrong with the 1020. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 22, 2019, 06:53:56 PM
Bill Iím pretty much similar weight class as you, see you really like the 1020 axis front wing winging,but what rear wing are using?any comparisons to the GF 280 performance wise as that is my wing of choice usually but the axis definitely looks nice, are those masts sealed well as a few years back had a aluminum mast on one of my kite foils that leaked and trapped the water in the extrusion chambers and weighed a bit more than Iíd like after a session was not a big fan of the older aluminum mast, have they eliminated that with the new axis aluminum masts?Oh what mast are using 75cm?Thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 23, 2019, 06:30:34 AM
I'm using either the 500 or the 440 Axis rear wing. I like the 440 for pumping and smooth water, the 500 is great for the crazy shit. Fatboy and 500 was the ticket yesterday (Fatboy is the 1020 extended to 1096 with no change in chord.

I sometimes get a little water into my mast, but it's a trickle, not a dump. The fittings on the Axis mast adapters is close and the mast is encased in the aluminum of the adapters. There's still a little wobble--the parts would probably stick if the clearance was a lot less--so shimming is a good idea. Most folks use beer can shims, I prefer aluminum tape which gives a full-perimeter shim and probably seals it as well. I have to use some care taking the masts out of the adapter, but the fuss is worthwhile and I don't take the mast apart often.

I'm using the 75 most of the time. I've tried the 90 and like it, but there a lot of rocks here in the gorge so I need to flip the board a lot more often and a lot further out. The shorter masts are resting comfortably in bubblewrap, I haven't used them other than a first test and them back to bubble.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 23, 2019, 07:52:26 PM
I'm using either the 500 or the 440 Axis rear wing. I like the 440 for pumping and smooth water, the 500 is great for the crazy shit. Fatboy and 500 was the ticket yesterday (Fatboy is the 1020 extended to 1096 with no change in chord.

I sometimes get a little water into my mast, but it's a trickle, not a dump. The fittings on the Axis mast adapters is close and the mast is encased in the aluminum of the adapters. There's still a little wobble--the parts would probably stick if the clearance was a lot less--so shimming is a good idea. Most folks use beer can shims, I prefer aluminum tape which gives a full-perimeter shim and probably seals it as well. I have to use some care taking the masts out of the adapter, but the fuss is worthwhile and I don't take the mast apart often.

I'm using the 75 most of the time. I've tried the 90 and like it, but there a lot of rocks here in the gorge so I need to flip the board a lot more often and a lot further out. The shorter masts are resting comfortably in bubblewrap, I haven't used them other than a first test and them back to bubble.
Thanks Bill for the info looks like a good bigboy set up!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Surfside on October 24, 2019, 04:13:45 AM
Yesterday we went out in 15-20 mph sideshore and tried my buddies's fairly new GF 280 on my 7'4". It is so floaty that when you are not on board, it rises, resulting in the board floating on it's rail. My GF 200 does not do this. Is the 1020 as "floaty" as the 280?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 24, 2019, 04:53:11 AM
I found the GoFoil M 200 to be very floaty.  It stayed on its side with a fully exposed wing for a long while and I ended up manually forcing it under water so I could get started.  It also did not quickly submerge when I crashed so that also added a level of excitement.  The Axis foils are all very quick sinkers in comparison to the M200.  I sometimes do help it under but it goes right down with a little direction.   I haven't used a 280 but if that was even floatier than your 200 you should find an even greater difference to the Axis foils.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Surfside on October 24, 2019, 05:00:00 AM
Thx!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 24, 2019, 10:14:46 AM
The newer GoFoil foils are super floaty. My 280 is ancient (in SUP foil terms) so it's not too corky, but the new M200s float like a rubber ducky and my GL240 is irritatingly floaty, though it's fairly easy to shove it down. On the plus side, light wings seem to feel better once you're up, and they certainly carry easier. Carrying Mr. Fugly with a 280 was a major chore. Little Fugly with either the GL240 or the Axis is much nicer.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 25, 2019, 10:37:35 AM
Jacky had to work today....so I rode the 920 with 3.5m Swing. Wow, the 920 is nice. I see a new problem now.  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 26, 2019, 02:39:18 AM
Hah!  The 1020/920 combo does cover 10-35 really well.  We had an awesome 20-25 session yesterday with frequent lighter dips.  It was a bit up and down but all in the range.  I was on the 4.2 and the 1020.  I could easily have been on the 3.5.  We under-judged it a little.  The thing I like best about the 20's is how smooth they are.  I wish that we liked the 820 more.  Chan hasn't tried the 1000 or the 900 yet so one of those may be good for her as a higher wind wing.  When I am close to the high edge on the 1020 I can't imagine what that is like for her on the 920.  That is relatively a way bigger wing for her.  What is Jacky using when the wind picks up?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 26, 2019, 03:03:22 AM
Jacky is only 2 sessions back from her dislocated shoulder. She is still trying to learn pumping the foil and wing in sync. So she has another session of two before she is flying consistent. My advantage over her, when learning winging, was I was already a good SUP foiler, so I was quite good at pumping a SUP onto foil. She is way behind me in paddle SUP foiling skill. She still has a job. Iím retired. Winging just doesnít have the power of a kite to get on foil, so she has to learn a lot of new techniques. If she picks a huge wing, then she fears for her shoulder. So far, winging feels good on the shoulder.

I have the 900 for her, when she is ready for it. Iím going to wait (I think) on ordering smaller wings, until I see the 2020 Axis lineup. For 2020 the wings we already own stay the same. I want to see the sizes of the new Gul wing style wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 01, 2019, 01:55:59 AM
Some new kit for 2020:

https://www.facebook.com/AxisKiteboarding/videos/2557587157622955/
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 07, 2019, 04:40:38 AM
Somebody got one. I want the 880 version of this wing.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4jnwy9Hsi1/?igshid=12nuc1eqvmt5z
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 07, 2019, 05:10:36 AM
I preordered a couple of the new carbon 76 cm masts and new short fuselages and with the adapter spigots they will work with the existing masts as well.  Those look great.  The ultra short 2020 fuselages are in stock now and the other are coming soon. They said that those have extra milling in the head and tail for additional weight savings.  SOLD :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 07, 2019, 05:22:37 AM
I'm guessing the 880 wing will be a 1500-1600 wing. I have the 1010 on order along with the 880. It's awesome that we don't have to wait a full year for new product to progress the sport
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 07, 2019, 07:33:06 AM
What are they aiming for with these new designs?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: surfinib on November 07, 2019, 08:10:32 AM
Admin, where are you getting the 2020 gear ordered from? Axis direct and Live 2 Kite (West distributor) only have 2019 gear listed on their sites.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 07, 2019, 08:15:57 AM
What are they aiming for with these new designs?

I heard awhile back, from another brands rep, Gul wings surf amazing. Thatís all I know, plus itís so much fun to try new wings.

Dealers got the 2020 info this week. You have to know somebody to get a peak. Ordering from Live2kite and axisfoils.com is the same people.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on November 07, 2019, 03:20:23 PM
The Fatboy wing is a variation on a gullwing. The variation is because I wanted plenty of margin for the carbon joint where I sawed the wing apart. It's a little more stable and turns oddly, but nicely. First, it resists the turn a little, then it kind of "locks" in and turns very smoothly, then it resists not turning. Once I got used to it I found that to be advantageous. Like cruise control.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: exiled on November 07, 2019, 04:45:56 PM
That gullwing axis looks a lot like the Ke Nalu Iwa foils. How down turned are the tips?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 08, 2019, 02:39:36 AM
Axis actually had a couple of the new Short fuselages come in and they sent those to me with the spigots for our current masts.  I am stoked to try those on our new little boards...and I am running out of usable days  :-\.  I am interested to see how much weight savings the carbon setups will offer.  I love it that they eliminate the track adapter.  Axis wings are incredibly light with most of the overall weight coming from the mast/adapter and then the fuselage.   Lighten up one or both of those parts and this could become a really light setup.

I asked Axis about the new wings and they let me know: In regards to the new Front Wings coming out, there will be many new items in store for 2020! That 1010 is going to be part of our Downwind Performance Series. It will be a super easy Downwinder Wing which will have early lift and endless glide! The 880 will be in our Surf Performance Series so great for Surf and SUP. Will be a great Wake wing as well. Insane gear coming out we are Stoked!

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: supnorte on November 08, 2019, 04:51:30 AM
I brought the new 660 wing from a meeting with the Axis guys at Paddleexpo in Germany for big-wave rider Rafael Tapia to use in Nazarť. It's for big wave tow foiling and also for high-performance prone foiling, since you can do really tight carves with it.
Here's some videos from Nazarť sessions:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=460534811487645

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=409871569697765

And since it's already out there I'm posting some top-secret photos from some of the new products  ;D


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on November 08, 2019, 03:02:29 PM
Ohhhhh.....foil porn!!  :o ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 08, 2019, 05:33:51 PM
Admin, where are you getting the 2020 gear ordered from? Axis direct and Live 2 Kite (West distributor) only have 2019 gear listed on their sites.

I had been communicating with them by email. I asked and they replied:  Awesome to hear about the riders looking for more AXIS. You can always direct them to us here at AXIS Foils, axisfoils@gmail.com with any questions and needs.  Also they check in with their local dealers that sell AXIS Foils.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 11, 2019, 02:12:34 AM
After a few days of stronger wind and smaller gear, we had a light westerly breeze yesterday accompanied by perfect 64 degree air and sunshine.  The Gorge is so beautiful in those conditions.  This was a soft and agreeable wind.  It was mostly 12 MPH, ranging from 8 to 18 but without edgy gusts.  Perfect Swing 5 meter weather with the Axis 1020.  I had the big 500 tail on with the Standard fuselage (in Axis speak the Standard is their longest fuselage) so this is their biggest kit.  That combination is silly fun in light wind.  It pops up so effortlessly and responds so well to pumping.  It takes a little adjusting to because the rhythm of the pump can be so much slower with this bigger gear.  I was practicing one quick little down push and slowly riding it up. Keeping the up angle really low.  Doing it like that and bring the air wing overhead you can feel it all accelerating you upwards for 30 or 40 feet on a tiny little downpump.  That momentarily weightless sensation right there is unique to this sport.  It really does feel like your flying.  These things are so freaking efficient.  I was also amazed by how the big foil would pick up the little microcups that were forming.  Go into a jibe and you can feel the tiniest slopes accelerate you with no wing involvement.

I stayed out for two hours, completely overheated in the sunshine and my winter rubber and stumbled up the beach like a goofball but jeez was that fun.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 11, 2019, 03:25:34 AM
Wait til you feel those sensations paddling into a wave!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: surfinJ on November 11, 2019, 06:21:29 AM
After a few days of stronger wind and smaller gear, we had a light westerly breeze yesterday accompanied by perfect 64 degree air and sunshine.  The Gorge is so beautiful in those conditions.  This was a soft and agreeable wind.  It was mostly 12 MPH, ranging from 8 to 18 but without edgy gusts.  Perfect Swing 5 meter weather with the Axis 1020.  I had the big 500 tail on with the Standard fuselage (in Axis speak the Standard is their longest fuselage) so this is their biggest kit.  That combination is silly fun in light wind.  It pops up so effortlessly and responds so well to pumping.  It takes a little adjusting to because the rhythm of the pump can be so much slower with this bigger gear.  I was practicing one quick little down push and slowly riding it up. Keeping the up angle really low.  Doing it like that and bring the air wing overhead you can feel it all accelerating you upwards for 30 or 40 feet on a tiny little downpump.  That momentarily weightless sensation right there is unique to this sport.  It really does feel like your flying.  These things are so freaking efficient.  I was also amazed by how the big foil would pick up the little microcups that were forming.  Go into a jibe and you can feel the tiniest slopes accelerate you with no wing involvement.

I stayed out for two hours, completely overheated in the sunshine and my winter rubber and stumbled up the beach like a goofball but jeez was that fun.

So although the vids have been ever more enticing from foil world, it might be this post that pushes me over the edge.
Only details to be worked out is an honest tally of time available, and the family administrator.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on November 11, 2019, 01:52:44 PM
After a few days of stronger wind and smaller gear, we had a light westerly breeze yesterday accompanied by perfect 64 degree air and sunshine.  The Gorge is so beautiful in those conditions.  This was a soft and agreeable wind.  It was mostly 12 MPH, ranging from 8 to 18 but without edgy gusts.  Perfect Swing 5 meter weather with the Axis 1020.  I had the big 500 tail on with the Standard fuselage (in Axis speak the Standard is their longest fuselage) so this is their biggest kit.  That combination is silly fun in light wind.  It pops up so effortlessly and responds so well to pumping.  It takes a little adjusting to because the rhythm of the pump can be so much slower with this bigger gear.  I was practicing one quick little down push and slowly riding it up. Keeping the up angle really low.  Doing it like that and bring the air wing overhead you can feel it all accelerating you upwards for 30 or 40 feet on a tiny little downpump.  That momentarily weightless sensation right there is unique to this sport.  It really does feel like your flying.  These things are so freaking efficient.  I was also amazed by how the big foil would pick up the little microcups that were forming.  Go into a jibe and you can feel the tiniest slopes accelerate you with no wing involvement.

I stayed out for two hours, completely overheated in the sunshine and my winter rubber and stumbled up the beach like a goofball but jeez was that fun.

Need.........to........see...........video.......
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: surfinib on November 11, 2019, 03:41:38 PM
Admin, where are you getting the 2020 gear ordered from? Axis direct and Live 2 Kite (West distributor) only have 2019 gear listed on their sites.

I had been communicating with them by email. I asked and they replied:  Awesome to hear about the riders looking for more AXIS. You can always direct them to us here at AXIS Foils, axisfoils@gmail.com with any questions and needs.  Also they check in with their local dealers that sell AXIS Foils.

Thanks! I talked with the Live2Kite folks that I got my original Axis setup from and placed an order and preordered the carbon mast and 880 wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 11, 2019, 03:57:05 PM
Need.........to........see...........video.......

Just imagine a Gazelle as an aquatic animal and you will pretty much have it. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 12, 2019, 02:45:14 AM
So although the vids have been ever more enticing from foil world, it might be this post that pushes me over the edge.
Only details to be worked out is an honest tally of time available, and the family administrator.
Thanks.

The real clincher then should be that you can go on almost any available day.  The wind forecasters here have not caught up with that at all.  They are still saying things like, "light and variable, plan on Golf" and we are scouring the NOAA models for how light? how variable?  Aside: those public models are freaking awesome for finding wind.  I have had 7 or 8 really good days in November many of which have had a stay home forecast. 

Another thing is that the light wind experience is one of the most incredible aspects of the sport.  You don't want to miss that.  It is when the flying sensation is in full soaring mode.  This is incredible on flat water, better with bumps, but I can't even imagine an 8-12 MPH day with even the smallest ocean groundswell.  When we lived on Maui I used to paddle OC1 out at lower Kanaha when it was 1 foot and windless (no one out surfing).  A few other canoes did this sometimes and we would pick up these super smooth waves and glide and glide.  It was an amazing feeling.  Can you imagine that with sideshore wind and a wing at 8 to 12 MPH? 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on November 13, 2019, 11:29:40 PM
  It was mostly 12 MPH, ranging from 8 to 18 but without edgy gusts.  Perfect Swing 5 meter weather with the Axis 1020.  I had the big 500 tail on with the Standard fuselage (in Axis speak the Standard is their longest fuselage) so this is their biggest kit.  That combination is silly fun in light wind.  It pops up so effortlessly and responds so well to pumping.
I have the same Axis foil setup for light wind , just not the 500 rear wing but the 440...
Should I get a 500 to be able to go in even lighter wind conditions?

Axis has another 500 rear wing for windsurf foiling , The 500 Anhedral.
Would that one be a good choice , we are wing foiling but also windsurf foiling...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 14, 2019, 01:49:03 AM
  It was mostly 12 MPH, ranging from 8 to 18 but without edgy gusts.  Perfect Swing 5 meter weather with the Axis 1020.  I had the big 500 tail on with the Standard fuselage (in Axis speak the Standard is their longest fuselage) so this is their biggest kit.  That combination is silly fun in light wind.  It pops up so effortlessly and responds so well to pumping.
I have the same Axis foil setup for light wind , just not the 500 rear wing but the 440...
Should I get a 500 to be able to go in even lighter wind conditions?

Axis has another 500 rear wing for windsurf foiling , The 500 Anhedral.
Would that one be a good choice , we are wing foiling but also windsurf foiling...

Hi Soekip,

My big kit is 68 mast, standard (long) fuselage, 1020 front and a 500 rear.  That setup is amazing for really light wind.  The 440 doesn't pop up as effortlessly with the 1020 and it doesn't feel as balanced.  I don't use the 500 on any of the other wings but on this one it is magic.  We leave the 400 on the 920 with a standard fuselage and keep those two assembled all the time.  I consider those really solid combinations.  We also have a Short fuselage with the 1000 and a 440.  That one we switch around.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 14, 2019, 04:22:53 AM
I didnít like the 440 with the 1020 either. The 500 works better with it. I donít like the feel of anhedral tail wings. I have used standard and short fuselage with it. Standard is extra stable. It makes feet shuffling easy.

With our 920, we have it setup with short fuselage and 440 tail. I donít have a 400 to try. 440 feels good to me. I prefer the short fuselage. It makes pumping the board into the air much easier than the standard fuselage.

I need to sell my standard fuselage and go all short.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 14, 2019, 06:22:35 AM
I need to sell my standard fuselage and go all short.

We just got two of the new short ones and they are awesome.  The head is entirely milled out.  There is a little milling on the tail.  The mast pedestal has been completely removed.  The new mast attachment point on the fuselage is female.  The doodad is highly milled and has a Gene Simmons tongue.  They took off a surprising amount of material over the old style.  These are nice and light in hand.  This is going to be awesome with the new carbon masts. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: exiled on November 14, 2019, 09:14:34 AM
If I just order from the axis site am I going to get a new style fuselage or are they still selling the outdated ones?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 14, 2019, 09:39:32 AM
If I just order from the axis site am I going to get a new style fuselage or are they still selling the outdated ones?

It don't think that you would get this style.  I am not sure if the older style is discontinued or if they are keeping both.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 14, 2019, 12:54:09 PM
With my last order, they sent 2019 standard fuse and 2020 short fuse. When 2019 stock is gone, 2020 ships. So youíre safe with a short fuse order.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: exiled on November 14, 2019, 01:38:46 PM
I was hoping to order a 2020 ultra short. I want the option to switch to carbon later. Hmm
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 14, 2019, 02:55:26 PM
The 2020 fuselage takes the dodad to be used in the metal mast. If you're going carbon, it'll attach directly.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on November 14, 2019, 11:02:38 PM
The new S1010 wing is 1010 mm wingspan ;D and projected area is 1430 cm^2

The amazing thing is that the actual area also is 1430^2 ...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit?usp=sharing)

The S1000 is 1310/1388.
So the S1010 is not much bigger than the S1000 and a lot flatter aka completely flat

There is also a new 460 rear wing coming that also seems to be completely flat
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 16, 2019, 04:49:46 AM
This looks like the 101 wing with 460 tail.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49072868218_d6a914e03a.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on November 16, 2019, 11:44:34 AM
What's the info on the 880 wing?? How's it compare to the 900 or the 920/820?  Haven't seen any pics or really any info about it. Is it high aspect?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 16, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
880 is surf performance series. Same as the 660 photos posted here
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 16, 2019, 04:11:47 AM
The new S1010 wing is 1010 mm wingspan ;D and projected area is 1430 cm^2

The amazing thing is that the actual area also is 1430^2 ...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit?usp=sharing)

The S1000 is 1310/1388.
So the S1010 is not much bigger than the S1000 and a lot flatter aka completely flat

There is also a new 460 rear wing coming that also seems to be completely flat

Some interesting updates on the 1010 here https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Axis-101?page=1#14 .  More area than the 1000 but the lowest of the 3 in volume.

S1000 area 1310, volume 1904 cm^3
S1010 area 1430, volume 1732 cm^3
S1020 area 2013, volume 4161 cm^3

(https://www.seabreeze.com.au/img/photos/stand_up_paddle/15909696.jpg)
Title: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: toejammer2 on December 20, 2019, 03:16:57 PM
Ready to get into Axis foils for winging-1000 and 1020 wings etc. Just wondering if I should wait for the new stuff  i.e. carbon masts to come out. I emailed live2kite but they never answered back.
Also, anyone know if all of the mast sizes will come out in carbon?  I willing to gamble the money on a 48 cm beginner mast to see if I can supfoil some luscious insiders at our beach break without breaking my face.

Iíve been using my Kai and Iwa with my floaty but heavy 8í hypernut. Iím going to start using my 7í4 carbon hypernut and my 6í6Ē Kalama when I feel more confident with the wing.

4.2 Fone,5.0 Fone and 7m Gong
Weight: 190
Cheers
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 20, 2019, 03:33:52 PM
There is no reason to wait. 1000 and 1020 are the same for 2020.

They are already supplying the 2020 short fuselage with all orders. Thatís what you need, should you decide to go carbon someday. Iím not going carbon.

Mast is the same for 2020 in the aluminum.

You donít need a short mast for shore break. You ride high on foil in the shallows, then kick the board airborne on exit. Pretty easy to execute.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Admin on December 21, 2019, 02:12:06 AM
Also, anyone know if all of the mast sizes will come out in carbon?

When we ordered the Carbon 76 masts Axis had written, "sizing will start with the 76cm at $788 and 96cm at $857 and then later in 2020 will come out with the 86cm and 106cm."
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Paddle On on January 03, 2020, 08:36:13 AM
I bought a full kit from Live2Kite. For me as a beginner, it was recommended I get the Aluminum $100 mast as opposed to the $800 carbon. He said in order to get the stiffness the carbon mast would only be 15% lighter and I would never be able to tell the difference for a while. I also got the Axis 7'6" Carbon board. I have not had much time on it and am now injured and out for the next month or two so no report.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: soepkip on January 03, 2020, 11:18:42 PM
Are the S820 and S920 obsolete now that the S900 and S1000 are out?

Or are there still conditions that the older front wings are the better choice?

Perhaps they  are turning more radical  have better lift in light wind and small waves?
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 04, 2020, 03:35:55 AM
Are the S820 and S920 obsolete now that the S900 and S1000 are out?

Or are there still conditions that the older front wings are the better choice?

Perhaps they  are turning more radical  have better lift in light wind and small waves?

They are very different wings. The 102 and 92 and really easy to ride. Early lift, without too much lift. Great for small waves and light wind winging. The 1000 and 900 are good for more skilled users, in better quality waves and higher winds. My guess is the 82 and smaller sizes will be less desirable when the 880, 780, 680 arrive soon. Not sure how the new 101 will fit in. It might be more desirable than the 1000.

102 and 1000 is a good quiver. 92 and 900 is another good quiver pair.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: toejammer2 on January 04, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Finally called and talked to Lenny at Live2Kite. Nice to have someone spend the time to explain things.  Felt good to know enough to tell him what I wanted based on a summer of reading on the Standupzone! Got the 1020 with the 500 rear wing for now. Along with the 60cm mast I got the 45cm for low tide. Saving for the 920 or 1000 and the 440 rear wing.
Cheers!
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Admin on January 05, 2020, 01:56:24 AM
Are the S820 and S920 obsolete now that the S900 and S1000 are out?

Or are there still conditions that the older front wings are the better choice?

Perhaps they  are turning more radical  have better lift in light wind and small waves?

Axis just put out a nice video which describes what they have found with the 900 but also how it fits with the 1000 and 920. 

Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Admin on January 05, 2020, 01:57:10 AM
https://www.facebook.com/axisfoils/videos/599173527322140/
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: obxDave on January 05, 2020, 10:41:09 PM
Has anyone measured the weight of their full Axis foil rig (say 1020 wing, short fus, 75cm mast, etc) or whatever theyíre specifically using? Really curious where they are coming in at.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 06, 2020, 12:36:10 PM
Has anyone measured the weight of their full Axis foil rig (say 1020 wing, short fus, 75cm mast, etc) or whatever theyíre specifically using? Really curious where they are coming in at.

You can try them all when you come down here.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: obxDave on January 06, 2020, 03:09:11 PM
Has anyone measured the weight of their full Axis foil rig (say 1020 wing, short fus, 75cm mast, etc) or whatever theyíre specifically using? Really curious where they are coming in at.

You can try them all when you come down here.

Cool! Iíll bring my scale. :)  My Gong rig weighs in at ~10.5 pounds (pro XL, 65cm mast). My Moses rig with a 70 cm mast and the 790 front wing weighs in at ~6.75 pounds. The difference is really noticeable. I figure just like the board, all that swing weight of the foil starts to add up.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 07, 2020, 10:53:29 AM
I'm loving the 960 in high wind. I'm going to have to try a 1000 next. I don't get as much glide through the lulls with the 960, but it turns on a dime.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 07, 2020, 12:34:10 PM
I'm loving the 960 in high wind. I'm going to have to try a 1000 next. I don't get as much glide through the lulls with the 960, but it turns on a dime.

Do you mean 920?  There is no 960 with Axis.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 07, 2020, 04:39:54 PM
Probably.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on January 16, 2020, 10:30:53 AM
Anyone have a 500mm rear wing they want to part with? Went to the Axis website and put a new one in my cart and it automatically calculated shipping with UPS 5 day for $68. $68 dollars to ship a rear wing?? WTF!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 16, 2020, 12:52:16 PM
Anyone have a 500mm rear wing they want to part with? Went to the Axis website and put a new one in my cart and it automatically calculated shipping with UPS 5 day for $68. $68 dollars to ship a rear wing?? WTF!!!

Email them. They will correct it. They also do free shipping if you contact them, on most stuff.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on January 16, 2020, 03:52:07 PM
Thanks. They changed the shipping to $18. Ordered one.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 16, 2020, 11:12:01 PM
Anybody tried the new S1010 ?

I really hope it will be easy to lift but it is only 1430 cm2 , just a little bit bigger than the S1000
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 17, 2020, 02:30:28 AM
Anybody tried the new S1010 ?

I really hope it will be easy to lift but it is only 1430 cm2 , just a little bit bigger than the S1000

Ericfoil has ridden it. He says I will love it. It will not be easier to get airborne than the 1020 or 920. Itís in the same class wing as the 1000, just the next level, specific to down winding, super glider style.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 20, 2020, 04:28:55 PM
Package from Axis showed up today.  The new carbon mast looks sweet!  They really cleaned up all of the joints and have eliminated all of the ledges and hard edges.  No potential for a sloppy pedestal connection now.  I get the weight at .5 lb. lighter than the aluminum (with pedestal and doodad and hardware). 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 20, 2020, 05:48:14 PM
But now you have to remove the t nut from the screw. Nooooooo

Slotted based plate is GOLD.  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 20, 2020, 10:23:30 PM
Yes it will take a few minutes more to attach it to the board, not so nice.

Please test the stiffness of the mast, .5 lbs lighter (226 gr) is nice but the stiffness is much more important to me , especially when I use a paddle and not a wing

I suppose the carbon mast will be faster when flying because the part in the water is thinner and narrower?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 21, 2020, 12:42:13 AM
Soepkip,

The carbon flexes more than aluminum mast. My buddy rode the carbon already. He is staying Aluminum.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 21, 2020, 02:07:26 AM
The carbon flexes more than aluminum mast. My buddy rode the carbon already. He is staying Aluminum.

Was the difference in stiffness so big that it was also not nice when winging? Or just paddling?

In that case I will have to wait for carbon mast V2 with integrated fuse

I have a Gofoil 29,5 carbon mast , stiff enough but not as stiff as Axis aluminium masts, but the new Gofoil wings are too expensive to build a quiver...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 21, 2020, 03:04:35 AM
I suppose the carbon mast will be faster when flying because the part in the water is thinner and narrower?

The carbon mast is .5 inch narrower at the fuse connection and it is significantly thinner up there as well.  The thickness difference is really noticeable (with the exception of the base) The last foot and a half are greatly reduced in comparison with the aluminum (which are obviously constant over the entire mast). 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 21, 2020, 03:07:17 AM
My buddy prone surfed the carbon mast.

So far, I know of no company making a carbon mast as stiff as the axis aluminum. Slingshot is working on some trick tech carbon mast for windsurfing they claim will be the stiffest carbon on the market.

Just avoid carbon until the day comes someone figures out how to match the Axis aluminum. For us anyway.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 21, 2020, 04:11:28 AM
But now you have to remove the t nut from the screw. Nooooooo

Slotted based plate is GOLD.  ;D

Slotted base is really nice.  For our use, we leave our 76 masts on all the time.  That way we only have to attach the two fuse screws and we are off.  The fuse screws on the carbon have less than half the thread length, so that is nice.  We never shimmed our bases so these may be stiffer for us  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 21, 2020, 05:23:42 AM
We never shimmed our bases so these may be stiffer for us  :)

Say what....you crazy. You donít drink beer? No access to aluminum shim stock. Hell, I shimmed and hammer my Dodad in. I like everything solid as a rock.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 21, 2020, 04:38:58 PM
The Gul wing explained. Sounds good to me.

They are sending my 1010 wing  ;D

https://youtu.be/1bmEuy1hliU
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on January 21, 2020, 06:07:33 PM
Hard not to agree with Exiled who posted earler in this thread at how similar the 660mm Axis wing is to the KeNalu IWA wings. Very similar in appearance and size to the IWA 580. Not to say that it was a copy of the KeNalu wing but I wonder if there was some inspiration there? I know that KeNalu is very popular in Australia. Lots of people there must have tested the KeNalu IWA series. And I know how good the KeNalu 580 is for kiting. That is a great video and Adrian explained much of what I experienced kiting on the KeNalu 580. That thing rips in the turns. Very easy to lay it over and drive through a turn without excessive lift. I'm sure the 660 will be a great wing. Not blistering fast with that thickness and a bit draggy but will excel in large surf or kiting in windy conditions where control in gnarlier conditions is needed. George at Delta Foils can make a VERY stiff carbon strut from his knowledge making kiteracing foils. He has Aluminum stuts as well. He just finished an 1880 cm2 and 2200 cm2 wing ready for testing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 21, 2020, 07:11:32 PM
The design elements of wings have been researched for 120 years, there isn't anything proprietary or unique about them, it's a matter of "do you want cheese with that", a set of well-worn compromises. Of course, while there is at least 100 years of hydrofoil research, the massive body of design testing is in air, where you have to worry about Reynolds number and compression, plus that little 1000 times more dense thing. So no, we don't need a wing the size of a hang glider to fly low and slow, but everything else is just picking from the menu.

Dihedral on a foil, especially in the context of a surfing foil, is a sensible choice in certain applications. Self-stability and banking for turns are two benefits. A flat wing will always be more efficient, but they don't bank and they don't self-correct. Anyone who has ever flown a rudder-only RC sailplane knows you can make banked turns with only a rudder if your wing has dihedral, and you need ailerons and an elevator if it doesn't. We are more or less rudder-only. Yeah, we manage pitch like we had elevators and some people bank flat wings with body weight as if they had ailerons, but that's them. the rest of us are rudder-only as far as turns go. A flat wing will just skid through a rudder-only turn. We might not sense that with a foil since we're standing two feet above a tiny (relatively) wing, but that gull wing should enable some wicked smooth turns. That's what I was aiming for with the fat boy wing, but didn't really get there since I wasn't able to start the dihedral close to the wing base. Next time I'll do a better one. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 22, 2020, 12:42:53 AM
They are sending my 1010 wing  ;D

Nice!  Stoked to hear how that one goes.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 22, 2020, 01:00:52 AM
The Gul wing explained. Sounds good to me.
They are sending my 1010 wing  ;D
The 1010 is all about speed it seems , I just hope it will be not too difficult to fly and turn for normal human beings

Adrian doesn't mention winging , I wonder how good the 660 (and the 770 and 880) will be for winging ?
When will the 660 be available?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 22, 2020, 05:15:44 AM
When will the 660 be available?

My guess is now, because the buy button went live.

https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-wings/products/s-series-660mm-carbon-front-wing
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 25, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
1010 front and 460 rear showed up yesterday.  Here are some comparison shots. 

The first couple are self explanatory.  The shots with 4 wings are 900, 1000, 1010, 1020 front to back.  The last shot is the 1000 with the 1010.  The 1010 and 460 flat almost flat on the ground. 

I had prepared myself for the 1010 to be paper thin.  It is not.  The 460 tail is super thin.  Gotta say, together they look badass....and very fast.

We still have to wait 2 weeks to get anything wet.  Arggghh!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 25, 2020, 08:42:23 AM
UPS shows my 1010 arriving Wednesday.

I passed on the 460 tail based on my experience riding my GoFoil team rider buddies GL setup and his feedback on all his custom tail wings.

I want the pump and glide, but will sacrifice some of that, to remove the skittishness of all flat front and rear setups.

The next time flkiter and I ride together, will can do some back to back testing of 460 flat tail versus 440 curved.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on January 25, 2020, 04:42:45 PM
Once those foil wings come in I'll be heading up your way DW. Going to have you try the 370 rear also. Speeds up the 1000 wing and makes it loose but the turns seem to be tighter.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on January 26, 2020, 10:52:13 AM
I am a kite foiler, SUP surfer. I just got a wing. I wanted to understand why mast stiffness is so important to people in this thread and how and when sufficient or inadequate stiffness. is noticed (how it affects the feel and performance). Thanks

The carbon flexes more than aluminum mast. My buddy rode the carbon already. He is staying Aluminum.

Was the difference in stiffness so big that it was also not nice when winging? Or just paddling?

In that case I will have to wait for carbon mast V2 with integrated fuse

I have a Gofoil 29,5 carbon mast , stiff enough but not as stiff as Axis aluminium masts, but the new Gofoil wings are too expensive to build a quiver...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on January 26, 2020, 11:01:12 AM
In my opinion, the less stiff the mast when you're sup'ing with big wings gives more wobble to the board. You may not notice it till you get on a stiffer mast. You'll usually use up more energy standing waiting for waves with a more flexible mast. I was getting like 30-40 mins of water time with a naish set up. Went to an hour or so with the Neil Pryde but still couldn't handle ocean conditions in over 10 knot wind conditions. Went to Axis and now I can sup for hours, be out in 20+ knots of wind and went from a 6'4" to a 5'8" board.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on January 26, 2020, 09:40:59 PM
I am a kite foiler, SUP surfer. I just got a wing. I wanted to understand why mast stiffness is so important to people in this thread and how and when sufficient or inadequate stiffness. is noticed (how it affects the feel and performance). Thanks

IMHO we all tend to get a bit preoccupied with technology of our gear over basic wing foiling skills

Iím most likely riding with the most flexible mast out there, Gongís Al mast. Itís a thin kite foil mast developed when the average recreational kite foil wing was in the 500-700 sq cm range. I had the exact same mast on a 600 sq cm RRD kite foil 2 years ago :o (all from the same Asian factory). Iím now using that same mast on a 1900 sq cm foil. All you have to do is grab the foil wing tip and push on it gently to feel how easy the mast flexes.

So you can readily feel some minor wobble foiling in choppy water, or stomping on the rail to carve a turn. Does it make huge difference for learning to wing in choppy flat water conditions? I donít think so at all. Heck, the Gong team riders were/are doing moves on those same aluminum masts that 99% people on this forum will never achieve, myself included. For  paddle down winding and wave riding I think the flex would be more of a issue, and at a certain skill level, flex will certainly be a bigger issue. For most of the readers here, I doubt it

But we do love to talk about our techie gear, and spend money as fast as we can on even more techie gear! Itís what we do.....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 27, 2020, 04:16:00 AM
If you SUP, then the mast stiffness helps a lot. It makes it way easier to stand on the board.

Other sports, with something more than just a paddle blade to lean on for balance, the lack of mast stiffness is a lot less important. So wings, sails, kites, donít worry about it. But if you buy a SUP to start winging, with plans to SUP one day, then do yourself a favor now, and get a stiff mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 27, 2020, 08:13:10 AM
If you SUP, then the mast stiffness helps a lot. It makes it way easier to stand on the board.

Other sports, with something more than just a paddle blade to lean on for balance, the lack of mast stiffness is a lot less important. So wings, sails, kites, donít worry about it. But if you buy a SUP to start winging, with plans to SUP one day, then do yourself a favor now, and get a stiff mast.

Also, the more you weigh, the more you notice this. 200 lb club for sure.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 27, 2020, 11:26:45 AM
With these questions about stiffness, I thought, "say, we can do some testing".

Yes, my test setup does include "B Is For Bedtime" and more appropriately, "Stupidity Should Be Painful".

First I did a few pushups on the mast.  Nothing.  Then I stood on it.  I felt zero flex.  Nothing.  I asked Chan to stand on it.  This thing is extremely stiff.  Way stiffer that our other carbon masts were. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: JEG on January 27, 2020, 12:55:27 PM
that's stiff indeed though I heard some people said they flex a little.
It would be interesting to do a flex comparison with the gofoil 29.5 mast?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 27, 2020, 10:15:26 PM
That is not a good way to test the stiffness of a mast, the moment-arm is only half the length of the mast

Attach the base to a wall , attach a fuse with an S1020 and apply force to the wingtips....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 27, 2020, 11:29:27 PM
That is not a good way to test the stiffness of a mast, the moment-arm is only half the length of the mast

Attach the base to a wall , attach a fuse with an S1020 and apply force to the wingtips....

Hi Soepkip,

Our other carbon masts would noticeably flex under just a pushup (not kneeling or standing) supported in the same manner at both ends.  This is just a quick and easy test that offers a comparison that anyone can do at home in a few seconds without mounting anything.  You probably don't want to try standing on an aluminum mast supported like this if you think it might bend :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 31, 2020, 11:27:11 PM
When will the 660 be available?

My guess is now, because the buy button went live.

https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-wings/products/s-series-660mm-carbon-front-wing

I wonder how good th S660 will be for winging in waves?
Would you need to take a bigger wing and more than 15 knots to to get flying?
It would of course help if you are 65 kg/140lb but what if you are 85 kg/ 190 lbs?
@85 kg it is perhaps better to wait for the S770 and S880?
I like the idea of a foil that turns really well for winging.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 01, 2020, 03:49:48 AM
I wonder how good th S660 will be for winging in waves?
Would you need to take a bigger wing and more than 15 knots to to get flying?


The primary reason a 4m wing ding works, when kite foilers are using 8 meters, is we use massive foils.

Take away the massive foil and use that S660 Adrian kites with, and now you need an 8m wing ding.

Or very high winds. Better move to the Gorge.  The S880 will be my wave riding foil for winging.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on February 01, 2020, 08:38:42 AM
Was just talking to the guys at live2kite yesterday. He said the 770/880 wings are still in production/testing, so it'll be a few more months before they are available.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 01, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
I wonder how good th S660 will be for winging in waves?
Would you need to take a bigger wing and more than 15 knots to to get flying?


The primary reason a 4m wing ding works, when kite foilers are using 8 meters, is we use massive foils.

Take away the massive foil and use that S660 Adrian kites with, and now you need an 8m wing ding.

Or very high winds. Better move to the Gorge.  The S880 will be my wave riding foil for winging.

It depends on your weight and skill as well. Kathy Shipman was out at Ka'a foil surfing with a S660 that looked like a toy compared to my 1020. She was rocking it, flying swells all the way to the beach and getting on the waves with no apparent effort. The waves were dying on the reef, so the swells in the lagoon were generally tiny. I was getting about 100 yards before the waves petered out as far as my skill level permits. Kathy was going as far as she wanted to, at least three times further than I was.

I don't compare myself to people like Kathy, or Dave Kalama, or Eddie Ogata, but I do pay attention to what they do and try to emulate some of their skills. Flying a S660 is not something I'm going to aim for, but if you are light and very skilled, then apparently it works.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on February 01, 2020, 11:44:13 AM
I wonder how good th S660 will be for winging in waves?
Would you need to take a bigger wing and more than 15 knots to to get flying?


Or very high winds. Better move to the Gorge. 

or to Cape town , ohh I am already there...
@ 85 kg 190 lbs I use my 2.8 swing very often in combination with an Axis s1000
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 01, 2020, 02:33:06 PM
So if S1000 and 2.8m then you might need the 4.2m to power the 660. What bothers me personally about using these Swings super lit, is the canopy flapping. These canopies are going to break down in 2 years. Need more design evolution.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 01, 2020, 02:44:13 PM
In two years we'll be on V3.0 and all the stuff I've been flinging money at with both hands will be obsolete junk.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 01, 2020, 08:35:16 PM
So the 101 fucking rocks. Looking at it I thought there was no way this was going to be my goto downwind foil. Not enough there to lift my 230# ass. Wrong. In fact, it's a bit much. I paired it with the standard fuselage and a 500 stabilizer I had kicking around. The weird thing is that I can FEEL the more balanced lift coming from both wing and stab.

The wind was blasting at Ka'a--way more than forecast, and I stupidly rigged my 5M because I thought I'd need all the help I could get coming up. Wrong again, I got up on the foil when I was still on my knees. I ripped around for a while on the edge of control and beyond, doing a few extremely high speed faceplants. The waves were pretty festive in the lagoon, and I could get on the face of the waves and just stuff the foil into it, getting power from both the wave and the wing. Nutso. But I decided broken bones might be in my future, so I went in and rigged down to the 4.2. Should have gone for the 3.5.

The wind continued to build, and soon the entire lagoon looked like the old "Victory at Sea" intro footage. Wave peaks coming from both the swell coming over the reef and the sideways wind swell that was rapidly growing to waist high. Even though I was well up on the foil I was still bashing off waves constantly. Crazy fun, but yeah, crazy.

I nailed a tack kind of accidentally on the way out to the reef and then failed at least ten more times trying to do one on purpose. I didn't make a single jibe--had to touch down to turn out.

The 101 performed flawlessly--fast, stable, turns beautifully if not quickly and glides for days. I'm going to surf this puppy. This could be one of those things, where the nutty outlier you think will never work, or only work for one silly thing (downwinging) turns out to be the goto.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on February 02, 2020, 01:19:40 AM
He Bill,

That is awesome to hear!  Try it with the 460 on a windy day and let us know. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on February 03, 2020, 03:32:22 AM
Hey Bill, where would you say the Axis 101 falls in size wise (and profile thickness) compared to the GoFoil GL wings? GoFoil doesnít publish any useful  numbers on the GLís which is a pain :o  Do you still have any GL wings to compare side by side? Thanks!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on February 03, 2020, 06:56:58 AM
I'm hooked on the 1010, speed of the 1000 and pump pattern and glides of the 1020. Needs a little more speed than the 1020 but if you pump quickly, it'll pop right up onto foil. The 460 rear speeds it up onto foil faster than a 370 rear. Took a little practice to not pump as much as the 1000 and trust that it would keep gliding. Was getting doubles with the 1000 now triples are easy and if the waves line up, no limit. I was on a ultra short fuselage but, I'll test it on a short fuselage soon to see if the glide is better. Found the glide allowed me to rest more between pumps and glide over income swell easily to get the next wave.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on February 03, 2020, 07:52:57 AM
I am not sure if it is obvious in the image but the 460 is not going to give any real downlift / negative lift especially in relation to the 500, 440 (pictured).  In relation to the others it is wafer thin and very low angle. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2020, 08:51:10 AM
Hey Bill, where would you say the Axis 101 falls in size wise (and profile thickness) compared to the GoFoil GL wings? GoFoil doesnít publish any useful  numbers on the GLís which is a pain :o  Do you still have any GL wings to compare side by side? Thanks!

The only GL wing I have is a 240, and that's a weird one. I'd say the lift is like a Iwa, but it's a lot faster a glides better.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 05, 2020, 02:12:16 PM
I laid the 1010 on top of the GL-210 today. Surface area looks the same to me.

The 1010 is a little wider, with a shorter cord.

My current thinking is, Iíll use the 1010 more for SUP, and the 1000 more for winging. I like the way curved tip front wings jibe better. Itís like the difference in a slalom fin versus wave fin.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 06, 2020, 03:10:13 PM
I sold my 1010 to a buddy today. That wing style (flat) is not for me. I much prefer the better surfing, better turning 1000. I will give up a little raw pump and glide, for what is more important and satisfying to me.

Like I said before, itís like the difference between a vertical race fin and a swept back wave fin. Iíll take the wave fin every time.
Title: Re: 2020 Axis foils
Post by: Seattle-Wind on February 20, 2020, 01:09:27 PM
Has anyone measured the weight of their full Axis foil rig (say 1020 wing, short fus, 75cm mast, etc) or whatever theyíre specifically using? Really curious where they are coming in at.

You can try them all when you come down here.

Cool! Iíll bring my scale. :)  My Gong rig weighs in at ~10.5 pounds (pro XL, 65cm mast). My Moses rig with a 70 cm mast and the 790 front wing weighs in at ~6.75 pounds. The difference is really noticeable. I figure just like the board, all that swing weight of the foil starts to add up.

Has anyone had the opportunity to weigh their Axis foil setup yet? I currently have the Gong XXL setup and am interested in getting a lighter weight foil, such as the Axis 1020. But I want to know just how much lighter it is to see if it's worth it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 20, 2020, 01:44:56 PM
10.5 lbs for 102 with short fuse, 500 rear and 75cm mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2020, 07:03:04 PM
I switched my 101 to the short fuse with the 440 tail. Cowabunga. Pumps way better, picked up another increment of speed, and gets up quicker and easier. I don't see any downside. I put my 1020 on the standard fuse and 500 tail, and it seems very happy with that combo. Not much change. Now I have a light wind and strong wind combo I can stick on the mast with minimal fiddling--two screws and done.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 21, 2020, 04:40:25 AM
I switched my 101 to the short fuse with the 440 tail. Cowabunga. Pumps way better, picked up another increment of speed, and gets up quicker and easier. I don't see any downside. I put my 1020 on the standard fuse and 500 tail, and it seems very happy with that combo. Not much change. Now I have a light wind and strong wind combo I can stick on the mast with minimal fiddling--two screws and done.

Buy another short fuse and use it with the 102 and 500. It just makes pumping easier without any downside at your skill level. I just did the same for myself. I was being cheap in not buying another short fuse for that combo. I finally coughed up the cash.  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 21, 2020, 10:46:54 AM
Yeah, I've been fooling myself. the standard fuse pumps like it's in mashed potatoes with the 500 tail. I'll have to fork over some bucks I guess. When I get back to Hood River I'll convert that standard fuse to ultra short. Whack out a chunk and TIG weld it back together. I've only got a MIG here in Maui or I'd be out in the garage with a hacksaw instead of typing this.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Seattle-Wind on February 22, 2020, 07:19:29 AM
10.5 lbs for 102 with short fuse, 500 rear and 75cm mast.

Thanks for weighing it. I'm surprised the Axis setup isn't significantly lighter than the Gong. I'm not sure that this would be worth the upgrade for me changing over to the Axis foil setup. Has anyone had a Gong foil and switched to Axis? Or ridden both?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Fishman on February 22, 2020, 10:19:16 AM
10.5 lbs for 102 with short fuse, 500 rear and 75cm mast.

Thanks for weighing it. I'm surprised the Axis setup isn't significantly lighter than the Gong. I'm not sure that this would be worth the upgrade for me changing over to the Axis foil setup. Has anyone had a Gong foil and switched to Axis? Or ridden both?
I wonder how much difference weight makes in the water. Its not really "swing weight" being in the center of lift area.  The XL pro is about 2.4 lbs lighter than your XXL standard smaller area but it's a option if lighter is important to you.  The Axis foil is just a better quality foil, stiffer mast, better connection points, lots of wing designs and options... 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 05, 2020, 12:45:01 AM
I have been itching to check out the new 1010 alongside the 1000 and the 1020 and yesterday was the perfect day.  Slow build light wind and really steady. 

The place we are staying has a big garage style cabana right on the sand so we can do super easy gear swaps and stay fully rigged.  Love that!  I just mounted a 75 mast and then swapped assembled fuselage, wing, tail assemblies onto it.  Such a nice way to go.  Always 2 screws away from ready.

First up I took a few runs on the 1020, 500, standard fuselage.  That is such a great kit.  Super stable, easygoing and cruisy.  I used the Swing 6.0 and then changed out for the 5.  The wind speed hadn't really changed, I just wanted to see the difference and they were both still inflated form the day before :).  I went back and forth between wings a few more times

Went back in and grabbed the 1010 with the 460 and a short fuselage.  This was my first outing with those wings and man, they blew my drawers off.  They are still off.  That is an outstanding combo.  How that wing generates that much lift with that reduced area, volume and thickness is a mystery to me.  I had read that it was close to the 920 in terms of lift but my first reaction is that it is pretty damn close to the 1020...and whoahoo, is that a fast combo.  I had to narrow my stance a little (that is still confusing me, maybe the quick change to the short fuselage?) but  other than that it  was pretty well adjustment free.  If I was amazed by how easily it gets up I was doubly amazed by how it slides through lulls.  It feels like there is no resistance to slow it down.  Maintenance pumping is super easy and relaxed.  This slippery, slidey setup is going to get a lot of use.

So, now I want to see what it feels like with a 440 tail.  I go in and make that change.  That setup wasn't for me. It worked, but it took away that unbridled loveliness of the 460.  A lot of the slippery feel vanished and it felt more boxed in and tight with noticeably more drag.  The wind had picked up a little but with the 440 it was slower to get up and took more effort.  That 460 is a tiny tail with almost no drag and it is magic with the 1010.

It was blowing 15ish now and I went in and swapped for the 1000, 440 on a short fuselage.  That is still a great setup but more on par with the 1010 and the 440.  It was a little off of the all out magic of the 1010 with the 460.  So, I went in and put the 460 on the 1000.  Holy shit!  Wanna set a firecracker off behind your horse?  Holy shit!  That is a super fun combo as well.  The 460 tail is so drag free.  Switching to it feels like you have lost a piece of weed that you didn't know you were dragging.  I am ordering a few more of those and some of the smallest tails as well (370, 340). 

I also want to try all of these with standard fuselages but that will have to wait for another day. 

So happy to be back at it!




 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 05, 2020, 05:17:17 AM
Hey Admin,
If you get a chance, try the ultra short with the 1010 and 460 and 370 rear. Those are my favorite set ups right now. I use that for wing, sup, and even prone. I didn't like the 1010 on the short fuselage as much, felt like the potential speed was being held back. That 460 rear really helps with the stability using the ultra short.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Beasho on March 05, 2020, 06:18:29 AM
You Axis guys will like this.

Adrian Roper founder of AXIS Foils on the Progression Project. He discusses his history windsurfing, foils and technical chat.

Its interesting how balanced his perspective is with what he knows works and what people just seem to really like.  Things are still evolving.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-progression-project/e/67787091?autoplay=true
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 05, 2020, 07:22:31 AM
That is really cool Beasho!  Adrian must have pointed out the variation in personal preference 100 times in that hour. 

flkiter, I am wondering if there are some elements of foiling that are sport specific to winging.  You said that you are liking the added speed of the ultra short,  Is that mostly due to the quick cadence of the pump or something else as well?  I was really interested in what Adrain was saying about the cadence of the pump that goes along with fuselage length and rear wing size.  I was thinking that it might be nice for winging to have a fuselage on the longer side with a very small rear wing.  I want to try that. 

I think the 460 is actually Axis' smallest area tail, probably lowest volume as well.  It is really tiny, wafer thin little thing despite the 460 length.  That thing is an eye opener. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 05, 2020, 08:46:06 AM
I use the 1010, ultra short fuselage and 460 or 370 rear for everything but, if I'm going to just be winging in waves doing DW runs between the waves and swell then I also like the 1000 on a short fuselage and 370 rear. I find the longer fuselage lets me glide more. The wing is giving me the speed when I want it so I'm not worried about going too slow and stalling the foil. I haven't tried the 460 flat wing with the 1000 yet so maybe today or this weekend I'll get on it. Been loving the 1010 so much, forgot all about trying that 460 with the 1000.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on March 05, 2020, 11:41:29 AM
I'm going to have to get a 460 to try. I've got a 340 that I haven't used yet--Mark was out of 370s.

I do love the 1010 once I'm up. It has plenty of lift even for a moose like me, but I have to get it going extremely fast to get up. Once I'm up the speed differential to the 1020 means there is almost too much lift. We fat guys all get save by lift being a function of the SQUARE of speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 05, 2020, 12:14:18 PM
The less drag the 1010 has behind it, the faster and better it performs. I felt like it had a governor on it with the longer fuselage and bigger rear wing. With the set up I do now, it can ride balls to the walls. You'll get quicker lift also. I found if there's 3 rolling swells that are less than a foot high, by the 3rd one I have enough speed to pop onto foil with the paddle. It's not for everyone but for my location it works really well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 06, 2020, 12:45:23 AM
The less drag the 1010 has behind it, the faster and better it performs. I felt like it had a governor on it with the longer fuselage and bigger rear wing. With the set up I do now, it can ride balls to the walls. You'll get quicker lift also. I found if there's 3 rolling swells that are less than a foot high, by the 3rd one I have enough speed to pop onto foil with the paddle. It's not for everyone but for my location it works really well.

The lack of drag, even with the short fuselage is amazing and a little shocking.  To me it feels like less drag than even the 900 with the 440 but the 1010 has that effortless lift.  I rode this setup for an hour yesterday in increasing 5 meter wind and it is blowing my mind up.

The 460 tail is so narrow that the trailing edge is a full inch inside the end of the fuselage.  It's leading edge is so straight in comparison to all the other tails that a lot more of the leading edge is forward as well.  Same is true of the 1010 front wing so together a lot of leading edge and a lot of area is getting shifted forward in relation to the mast (when comparing to the 1000/440).  Once I saw that I moved my mast back and voila, my stance issue from the previous day corrected.  It was a full inch which I thought was pretty significant.  This really surprised me.  I had imagined if anything that I would be moving my stance back or the mast forward to adjust for lower lift from the wings.  In actuality I had to move my weight forward (which wasn't great) or the mast back (which ended up being awesome).  Now I just need to learn to keep up with this thing and to try breathing every once in a while :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 09, 2020, 12:48:20 AM
Are any of you already using the carbon mast?

Any new insights on stiffness, less drag than the alu mast?

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 09, 2020, 02:57:18 AM
Are any of you already using the carbon mast?

Any new insights on stiffness, less drag than the alu mast?

We only have the one so far so we left it home for this trip.  The other one is stuck in Caronavirus limbo.  I will check it out first thing when I get back though.  Water is almost 43 degrees at home now :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 09, 2020, 11:55:51 PM
Corona virus yeah , I pre ordered the s1010 in November....still not sure when I will get it.

Did anyone weigh the new and the old fuselage ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 10, 2020, 02:47:47 AM
Hang in there for that 1010.  It is really cool.  Grab the 460 tail with it as well.  It is an eye opener.

I had another session on the 1000 with the 460.  That is an outstanding combination.  I also had another very light wind session yesterday with the big 1020 and I put 460 tail on it on the longer standard fuselage.  Amazing.  Kind of like increasing wheel base but going to a single rear wheel on a pivot.  It is crazy what 3 inches of fuselage and a seemingly small tail wing change can make. 

I am having a ball geeking out on this stuff but Chantalle had to tell me to leave her gear alone :). 

I asked they guys at Axis for more details on all of their tail wings and they are going to put something together for us.  They are a really responsive crew and I dig how they live this stuff. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on March 28, 2020, 04:43:11 PM
I got in an amazing 2 hour solo session today.  My first on the new 76 mast.  I was using the 1010, 460, short fuselage and the Swing 6.0.  This setup is outrageously slippery both on the surface and on the foil.  There is so little drag.  It is immediately evident when you get any forward motion.  It was super light when I launched (actually, a new low for me).  The smoothing at the mast base (and the lack of all ridges, bumps, joints, pockets) make more difference than I had imagined.  What I hadn't considered is that the mast would feel noticeably faster when flying...but it does.  That must be due to the significant taper.  The carbon mast progressively tapers to much less thickness and width at the fuselage where the aluminum mast is constant over its entire length.  Once you are up and flying there is a lot less meat in the water and it is very noticeable.  What a feeling.  Does mast taper provide extra lift?  There is a sensation of extra lift but possibly that is reduced drag that I am feeling.  I am not sure but I am stoked about it.  I am 168 lbs right now but I didn't notice any reduction in stiffness while winging.  I want to get us set up so we are 100% on these carbon masts.  Damn, I am going to need a couple new fuselages.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/2006/7439/products/axis-foils-all-together-16mm19mm-carbon_ae0b7e46-bc5e-4862-a322-8ebae5aebc9d_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1582662256)

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/2006/7439/products/axis-masts-top-down-standing-on-white-background_80b119ce-299d-473a-9558-cbf407844e61_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1582662256)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 23, 2020, 01:11:55 PM
3.6m winging today, with Evan from Axis in town, with lots of prototypes to try.

I finally found my magic tail wing. The flat tail 460 wasnít for me.

This new tail turns the 1000 into magic for me. I had the most insane wave riding, just holding the 3.6 by the nose, connecting and surfing and connecting......in the Banana River! Longer connections than Iíve had in the ocean on down winders. Magic day, magic session.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49810900016_5361aee161.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49810898916_abbf306ec6.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on April 24, 2020, 03:05:00 AM
Sounds great Dwight.  Little off topic but do you use the same handles on the 3.6 that you use with your 6?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 24, 2020, 03:43:24 AM
Sounds great Dwight.  Little off topic but do you use the same handles on the 3.6 that you use with your 6?

No...with the 3.6 my front hand is on the 2nd handle. Harness line on the 4th. Rear hand on the 6th.

BTW, the wind was 25-35 mph, eventually hitting 40 on the sensor. I was done by the time it hit 40.. Anyway, in the harness (Upwind) tamed the ride and was easier than unhooked, buffeting and bucking with just my arms. We really are reaching windsurf sail levels of control when itís nukin. Once I got way upwind to the deep water and big wind waves, it was all down wind amazing wave rides unhooked, working on reading the water, going farther and farther holding the nose handle with each run.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 24, 2020, 03:52:42 AM
The man, the myth, the legend, Piros, just gave his approval on my Instagram account. ďThe best Axis rearĒ.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_V0xlQDoAk/?igshid=1iyzp3e3ih4oj
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on April 24, 2020, 09:11:51 AM
That 390 looks great, almost an exact replica of my Gong 40cm.

I was going to pick up a second 100cm carbon mast from Gong but who knows when or if those guys will ever ship internationally again. The "Access to Axis" may win out assuming there is access and I wanted a slightly shorter mast anyway.

Admin or PB, as Oregon folks, who's your favorite dealer of this stuff (pm me if you feel that's better)? I Don't think anyone in the Gorge is a dealer, assuming it has to be mail ordered.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on April 24, 2020, 09:39:35 AM
That 390 looks great, almost an exact replica of my Gong 40cm.

I was going to pick up a second 100cm carbon mast from Gong but who knows when or if those guys will ever ship internationally again. The "Access to Axis" may win out assuming there is access and I wanted a slightly shorter mast anyway.

Admin or PB, as Oregon folks, who's your favorite dealer of this stuff (pm me if you feel that's better)? I Don't think anyone in the Gorge is a dealer, assuming it has to be mail ordered.

Hi thatspec,
What pieces do you need?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on April 24, 2020, 09:48:02 AM
Hi Admin,
I would need a complete setup but just poking around it looks like it might be a custom package. The 1010 front wing would be the main reason to move in this direction. Ultra short fuse, 90cm mast and a stab to be determined. Assume the 390 is not likely an available item yet and probably want something longer for the 1010 anyway.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 24, 2020, 10:01:33 AM
The 460 tail is the designed mate for the 1010.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on April 24, 2020, 10:02:35 AM
Hi Admin,
I would need a complete setup but just poking around it looks like it might be a custom package. The 1010 front wing would be the main reason to move in this direction. Ultra short fuse, 90cm mast and a stab to be determined. Assume the 390 is not likely an available item yet and probably want something longer for the 1010 anyway.

Got it.  We have a bunch of Axis that we are going to unload but none of those items.  We order directly from the Axis site: https://axisfoils.com/ .
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on April 24, 2020, 10:11:39 AM
Thanks for the info guys! What I've learned about myself is it's best to draw out the research and purchase phase as long as possible. Once the item(s) are acquired I'll start looking for what might be better ::)
That said, it's my civic duty to spend money right now :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on April 24, 2020, 12:50:59 PM
If anyone wants the 1010 set up, I highly recommend the ultra short fuselage and 460,370 or 340 rear. You won't get the full potential of the 1010 without a fast rear.
The 390 rear is my main rear wing for winging on the 1000 and 900.
Different gear for different styles and conditions. Some like carving waves, others pumping for 3's and more, some just winging so if you know what you'll be using it for, that'll help when getting the right set up for you. Also don't forget about the original surf series, still my favorite wings for easy learning of the wing and catching tiny bumps. If you're just getting into the foil stuff, don't go super performance just cause the wing is new, it'll impede your learning.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 24, 2020, 09:14:36 PM
I've been using the 1010 with the 460 or the 340 rear. The 460 lets me get up a little quicker and is more stable, the 340 is just silly fun and loose. It won't settle into a smooth altitude, a do a lot more swell bashing and bobbing up and down, but it's fast without feeling like it's promoting overfoiling. I swapped back to the 500 just before the COVID lockdown when coming back in to swap stuff was no big deal. Solidly locked in place, and I can see why I used to like it, but it felt like I'd put a speed limiter on.

460 feels like the right stabilizer for the 1010, but I think I'll probably wind up using the 340 more, just because it makes the combo feel so responsive. Now if I can just learn to calm it down a bit.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on April 25, 2020, 05:53:43 AM
I did a fun session on the 1010/460 yesterday and reminded myself that this is a big wing.  In terms of lift it is a beast.  I mention that because for mid weight riders this may sound like a step down (lower lift) wing but I don't think it is.  This is an alternate big wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 25, 2020, 08:21:33 AM
I didn't realize you were on the 1010/460. We were on the same setup. I thought you were on the 1020 since mine seemed a lot faster. Probably just a wing size issue--the 6M is a beast. I was catching you quickly on the starboard tack. Hard to say on the port tack since I was falling on the jibe. I think I see what DW was saying about the flat wing (1010) losing speed on turns. Even when I committed to the jibe my speed dropped substantially as I turned downind. I need to either turn harder or maintain speed better. I'm always looking for equipment to compensate for my shortcomings.

I think I'm going to drop back to the 1020 to work on jibes. I also need to either ditch my front straps or learn to foil heel/toe instead of switchfoot. I can't get my foot out of the strap until I move my back foot forward, and even then it's a concentration break. If I try to slide the front foot back the board rises and keeps my foot in the strap. I'm really pissed that my jibes have been set so far back--I was getting close while I was on Maui, now I'm back to square one.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on April 25, 2020, 09:58:25 AM
Temira was way off on the forecast yesterday, wind kicked in just as I turned around to head into it on my paddle ::)

Thanks to all you guys again for the personal experiences! I wasn't able to draw out the research and shopping experience as long as I'd hoped and after an almost instant response to queries from 'Lenny" at Axis, a 1010 / 390 combo should be on the way next week when 390's come in  (went to directly through the Axis site).
Nobody specifically mentioned that combo but if 340's and 370's work ok... I just like the shape of it, one I'm used to and no pointy carbon bits pointing upward toward me ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on April 25, 2020, 10:21:39 AM
I didn't realize you were on the 1010/460. We were on the same setup. I thought you were on the 1020 since mine seemed a lot faster. Probably just a wing size issue--the 6M is a beast. I was catching you quickly on the starboard tack. Hard to say on the port tack since I was falling on the jibe. I think I see what DW was saying about the flat wing (1010) losing speed on turns. Even when I committed to the jibe my speed dropped substantially as I turned downind. I need to either turn harder or maintain speed better. I'm always looking for equipment to compensate for my shortcomings.

I think I'm going to drop back to the 1020 to work on jibes. I also need to either ditch my front straps or learn to foil heel/toe instead of switchfoot. I can't get my foot out of the strap until I move my back foot forward, and even then it's a concentration break. If I try to slide the front foot back the board rises and keeps my foot in the strap. I'm really pissed that my jibes have been set so far back--I was getting close while I was on Maui, now I'm back to square one.

Bill, you were screaming on starboard.  I was cheering for you on one run.  It was hysterically fast.  I was edge of disaster most of the time on the 5.0 / 1010.  The 1000 / 4.2 would have been the call for me.  My 4.2 is getting repaired or I would have been on it.  I need to improve a lot at going downwind overpowered to kill the wing.

Thatspec, it is going to be good again today.  Come join us.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on April 25, 2020, 11:29:33 AM

Thatspec, it is going to be good again today.  Come join us.

Thanks, I will in the very near future, still kinda recovering from "something" and I'd be in the water too much. SUPing on glass is a different level of commitment. Next 70+ sunny day though...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 01, 2020, 04:07:42 AM
I've revisited the 920 this week.  Chan is liking the 820 more now so the 920 may have some vacancies going forward.  The 920 may not be the sexiest Axis wing but it is great compromise wing for super gusty spring conditions.  We have had a lot of 12-30 with fairly strong current (choppy unsettled water).  I have been finding the 1020 and 1010 to be like bronco riding when it is like that.  The 1000/370 is so fun once it is going but it is definitely more work to get started in this current.  I am really digging the mellow consistency of the 920/400.   
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 01, 2020, 04:47:00 AM
Yeah, I lost access to my (her) 920. Jacky retired, she can ride everyday.

Did you order the 390? Mine shipped yesterday.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 01, 2020, 05:33:42 AM
No, we just got the 370 and 340 which are great additions.  One thing that I hadn't considered is that a smaller tail lets you pressure your back foot more or spread out your stance when you are overpowered.  Having to be too forward or narrow stanced when it is really bumpy and gusty is a pretty awkward thing and these new (for us) tails mellow that out a lot. 

Right now I am using:

1020/440 when it is super light.
1010 /460 also for really light conditions.
920/400 as my windier but junky setup.
1000/370 windy and steady.

The conditions here have been fun but nutty.  The only legit Covid launch is wind shaded by an island and then once you are past that the river is flowing at 300 beneath the Dalles Dam but we are also just below the Hood and the White Salmon rivers so we are getting that extra flow and confusion.  It is really fun but also really challenging. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 01, 2020, 07:06:10 AM
I asked Evan why the 390 was so magical. The anhedral? He said itís a different foil section than the others. The testers liked it so much, they ordered a production run right away.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Solent Foiler on May 01, 2020, 07:16:16 AM

Right now I am using:

1020/440 when it is super light.
1010 /460 also for really light conditions.
920/400 as my windier but junky setup.
1000/370 windy and steady.


If you had to choose two of the four (I know it's probably like choosing between children right  ;))

Interested to see if you'd choose both HA foils (given the market hype) or you'd still keep a high lift shape...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 01, 2020, 09:45:58 AM
When the wind is good (over 18 and not too rangy) the 1000 is my favorite.  It is really fun, quick and smooth.  The downside is that I would miss days if it was my only wing.  You could match that with either of the big wings (1010 or 1020) and cover a very wide group of conditions.  Both of those big wings are great.  I haven't outgrown the 1020 yet.  It foils in surprisingly little wind and is a very stable wing.  It is not a speedster but I am still at the point where it all feels exciting and all foiling is fun foiling.  When it is really light I end up putting it on more than the 1010 because it is a sure thing.  The 1010 lifts almost as much, stays foiling almost as long and is noticeably faster but the key there is almost.  I am starting to think that if I could have only one it would have to be the 920.  It gets up really well and stays manageable until it is crazy windy. 

We also have the 900 and the 820.  The 900 takes a lot of wind for me to get going and it wants to drop pretty quickly at any lull.  We also have the 820 which I only have one day on.  It was also too much work for me.  Chan uses the 920, 820 and 900 like I am using the 1020, 920 and 1000.  The 1010 is kind of redundant but I loved it when we were getting days of 12-15 and no current down in Baja. 

Consider these as new foiler comments.  I am sure that riders who can really work the foil could get a lot more out of each one of these. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Solent Foiler on May 01, 2020, 10:54:42 AM
When the wind is good (over 18 and not too rangy) the 1000 is my favorite.  It is really fun, quick and smooth.  The downside is that I would miss days if it was my only wing.  You could match that with either of the big wings (1010 or 1020) and cover a very wide group of conditions.  Both of those big wings are great.  I haven't outgrown the 1020 yet.  It foils in surprisingly little wind and is a very stable wing.  It is not a speedster but I am still at the point where it all feels exciting and all foiling is fun foiling.  When it is really light I end up putting it on more than the 1010 because it is a sure thing.  The 1010 lifts almost as much, stays foiling almost as long and is noticeably faster but the key there is almost.  I am starting to think that if I could have only one it would have to be the 920.  It gets up really well and stays manageable until it is crazy windy. 

We also have the 900 and the 820.  The 900 takes a lot of wind for me to get going and it wants to drop pretty quickly at any lull.  We also have the 820 which I only have one day on.  It was also too much work for me.  Chan uses the 920, 820 and 900 like I am using the 1020, 920 and 1000.  The 1010 is kind of redundant but I loved it when we were getting days of 12-15 and no current down in Baja. 

Consider these as new foiler comments.  I am sure that riders who can really work the foil could get a lot more out of each one of these.

Great to have your insight - thanks for sharing. I will be getting a HA foil later this summer but not yet sure how it would fit into my current setup or if it really is HA for everything, even for 'new' foilers.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on May 05, 2020, 01:12:10 AM
So I have a question on the 1000 and 1010 wings. Is anyone in the 170# and up range tacking (not jibing) to both sides (toe-to-heel and vice versa) on this wing and consistently staying up on the foil throughout the tack?

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 05, 2020, 03:40:58 AM
So I have a question on the 1000 and 1010 wings. Is anyone in the 170# and up range tacking (not jibing) to both sides (toe-to-heel and vice versa) on this wing and consistently staying up on the foil throughout the tack?

Never tried with those. But can rank them in two categories.

The 1010 will stay airborne at a slower speed than the 1000. Then pump back up after a fail easier.

The 1000 will glide farther ďwhen bankedĒ. So if enough wind, the 1000 should carry more speed, farther through the eye, without wing power. The 1000 is my 18+ wind wing.



Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on May 05, 2020, 05:36:27 AM
So I have a question on the 1000 and 1010 wings. Is anyone in the 170# and up range tacking (not jibing) to both sides (toe-to-heel and vice versa) on this wing and consistently staying up on the foil throughout the tack?

Never tried with those. But can rank them in two categories.

The 1010 will stay airborne at a slower speed than the 1000. Then pump back up after a fail easier.

The 1000 will glide farther ďwhen bankedĒ. So if enough wind, the 1000 should carry more speed, farther through the eye, without wing power. The 1000 is my 18+ wind wing.

So Dwight, here is what Iím grappling with. I ride a lot in these gusty 17-30 mph ish conditions. Good ole OBX.  And I think in the higher winds I should be riding a smaller wing than my 1900 sq cm XL pro.  So I rig my smaller Moses 790 (1550 sq cm, Mid aspect ratio and thin profile). It works great for general riding and jibing. Jibing always seems to be a no brainer regardless of foil or wing-a-ding for me since the ďwindageĒ is helping to keep the speed up. 

But with tacking itís just the opposite.  Itís like Iím not carrying enough extra speed going into the transition with the smaller 790 wing to compensate for the higher stall speed and screaming headwind, so I end up coming off the foil easily.  Turning into a 25-30 mph direct head wind while tacking is like riding into a brick wall!  Even with a couple of extra mph going into tack, that head wind slows me down friggin fast regardless of how ďglideyĒ my foil is.  For some reason that XL pro has just enough high end and low end to get me through the tack on the foil (albeit, with a pretty tight turn) so much easier.

I watch really good wingers floating around on tacks effortlessly but they seem to be doing it in what seems like far more tame winds, perhaps on far more efficient wings than my XL pro and more efficient wing-a-dings than my well worn V1 Duotones. I keep thinking I want a foil like the 1000 thatís easy to carve, but I want it even thinner (less volume) and one notch up in size at around 1500-1700 sq cm. Maybe that is what Axis is working on. I listen to Fanatic talking about their new HA winging foils and Patrice at Gong also talking about his new HA Veloce foils and think, ok maybe thatís what Iím looking for.  Mostly I think I have too much bloody time on my hands geeking on this wing stuff, and that my skills are lacking!

Here are some tacks Iím talking about where the XL pro keeps me up on foil. I just canít pull them off as easily with my 790.
https://youtu.be/4aDOVcl5z70
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 05, 2020, 08:29:57 AM
Next high wind day Iíll try tacking the 1000 with my new 390 tail.

In the mean time, VB_foil needs to come down and let you try tacking his Armstrong HS1550  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on May 05, 2020, 01:27:29 PM
Next high wind day Iíll try tacking the 1000 with my new 390 tail.

In the mean time, VB_foil needs to come down and let you try tacking his Armstrong HS1550  ;D


Ok, cool. Maybe these new Duotone Echos will up my speed some as well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 05, 2020, 11:45:30 PM
In the mean time, VB_foil needs to come down and let you try tacking his Armstrong HS1550  ;D

It would be very nice to compare the Armstrong HS1550 with the Axis S1000 and S1010 : early lift, speed , turning , pumping and glide 

And a comparison between the Armstrong CF 2400 v2 and the Axis S1020 please ,  for wing , sup and prone.....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 08, 2020, 03:17:21 AM
Next high wind day Iíll try tacking the 1000 with my new 390 tail.

In the mean time, VB_foil needs to come down and let you try tacking his Armstrong HS1550  ;D


Ok, cool. Maybe these new Duotone Echos will up my speed some as well.

Well I rode the 1000 yesterday, but I let you down. I was too chicken to try a tack with my 2.8m. Plus it was cold. 74 degrees! Felt like Winter.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: VB_Foil on May 08, 2020, 02:09:53 PM
Next high wind day Iíll try tacking the 1000 with my new 390 tail.

In the mean time, VB_foil needs to come down and let you try tacking his Armstrong HS1550  ;D


Ok, cool. Maybe these new Duotone Echos will up my speed some as well.

Booked a trip down to Rodanthe for the week leading up to July 4th.  Staying 1/4 mile from Real.  Let's try and meet up for a session!  We can swap wings around and I can take notes on tacks  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foi
Post by: obxDave on May 08, 2020, 04:09:46 PM
Booked a trip down to Rodanthe for the week leading up to July 4th.  Staying 1/4 mile from Real.  Let's try and meet up for a session!  We can swap wings around and I can take notes on tacks  ;D

Sure! Hopefully the sea grass levels will still be minimal by then in the sound. Then again the ocean should be a lot warmer. Good time for some downwinders...

Well I rode the 1000 yesterday, but I let you down. I was too chicken to trying a tack with my 2.8m. Plus it was cold. 74 degrees! Felt like Winter.

No worries :). Must have been much of the east coast. It was blowing 22-35 here today and yep, colder water. Plenty overpowered on the 4m, and crazy things tend to happen when I try to tack well overpowered.  My success for the day was finally getting rid of my spongy Gong Al mast and replacing it with a nice stiffy 19 mm Axis mast.  Night and day  difference in feel and control, and especially noticeable on a really choppy day like today. Happy camper. I added a 3.3m echo to my new wing order for the really cranking days!
Title: Re: Axis Foi
Post by: Thatspec on May 08, 2020, 05:25:13 PM
My success for the day was finally getting rid of my spongy Gong Al mast and replacing it with a nice stiffy 19 mm Axis mast.  Night and day  difference in feel and control, and especially noticeable on a really choppy day like today. Happy camper. I added a 3.3m echo to my new wing order for the really cranking days!

So Dave, the 19mm Axis mast just drops into the Gong fuse slot with no machine work?
If so that opens up a lot of interesting options :)
Title: Re: Axis Foi
Post by: obxDave on May 09, 2020, 01:31:25 AM
My success for the day was finally getting rid of my spongy Gong Al mast and replacing it with a nice stiffy 19 mm Axis mast.  Night and day  difference in feel and control, and especially noticeable on a really choppy day like today. Happy camper. I added a 3.3m echo to my new wing order for the really cranking days!

So Dave, the 19mm Axis mast just drops into the Gong fuse slot with no machine work?
If so that opens up a lot of interesting options :)

Nope, machine shop required to go from the (spongy!) 14.5 mm width Gong mast to the 19 mm Axis. I never knew what a really stiff mast felt like since that Gong has been all Iíve basically ridden. I just got used to the ďwobbleĒ. Amazing difference. Ordered a 68 and 90 cm Axis mast to go with my current 75cm. Itís definitely not light compared to my Moses stuff, but what can I say, love that XL pro, and the foil rig weight doesnít bother me for now.

If I wanted to really geek out, I could have a much lighter fuselage made (the Gong fuselage is just heavy, clunky straight bar stock) and adapt it to my Moses carbon surf masts. Easily shed a bunch of weight. Maybe a summer project.....

Also really looking forward to trying the new Gong Veloce foil wings. That XL will be 1600 sq cm with just 1.35 liters of volume. I want one!





Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on May 09, 2020, 12:43:12 PM
Apparently there is a new Axis front foil around the corner:  "1115".  I saw a quick video and it looked pretty high aspect and large.  Not sure where it fits in.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 09, 2020, 06:15:25 PM
That looks pretty easy, Wouldn't work for me though because the main reason I went to the Axis over GoFoil and everything else is the fuselage. Super solid and precise wing mount, excellent stabilizer mount.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 09, 2020, 06:26:12 PM
That looks pretty easy, Wouldn't work for me though because the main reason I went to the Axis over GoFoil and everything else is the fuselage. Super solid and precise wing mount, excellent stabilizer mount.

Ah, good point. The foil I rode before Axis, had a stiff mast, but I could push on the wing tips and watch the fuselage twist.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on May 09, 2020, 11:27:51 PM
That looks pretty easy, Wouldn't work for me though because the main reason I went to the Axis over GoFoil and everything else is the fuselage. Super solid and precise wing mount, excellent stabilizer mount.

Completely understand. Axis has super quality well thought out parts. But that clunky Gong foil wing has helped me progress faster than the other front wings Iíve tried so far.  The Live2Kite guys also told me Adrian was testing a slightly larger version of the 1010 (guess that would be the 1115 Philís mentioned), and that the 1010 itself was hopelessly backordered. Oh well, the Gong/Axis combo works great for now, and lots of new gear appearing on horizon to feed the addiction :P
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 10, 2020, 12:01:22 AM
A slightly larger 101 would be a good thing, though what I'd really like is a bigger 1000. I rode my 1020 today in pretty good wind. Mostly I used a 4.2 F-1 and it was fun, but a bit of work in the lulls. I switched to the 5.0 wing but kept the 1020 purely for "try one thing" purposes. I wish I'd switched to the 101. Love that speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 10, 2020, 02:34:25 AM
A slightly larger 101 would be a good thing, though what I'd really like is a bigger 1000. I rode my 1020 today in pretty good wind. Mostly I used a 4.2 F-1 and it was fun, but a bit of work in the lulls. I switched to the 5.0 wing but kept the 1020 purely for "try one thing" purposes. I wish I'd switched to the 101. Love that speed.

When more gen 2 wing dings hit the market, upgrade. The 102 will become faster. Youíll lose the urge to get off it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 10, 2020, 03:14:40 AM
Apparently there is a new Axis front foil around the corner:  "1115".  I saw a quick video and it looked pretty high aspect and large.  Not sure where it fits in.
Have You got a link?

I want an 880!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 10, 2020, 04:03:31 AM
A slightly larger 101 would be a good thing, though what I'd really like is a bigger 1000. I rode my 1020 today in pretty good wind. Mostly I used a 4.2 F-1 and it was fun, but a bit of work in the lulls. I switched to the 5.0 wing but kept the 1020 purely for "try one thing" purposes. I wish I'd switched to the 101. Love that speed.

You looked solid the whole time.  I was liking the 920/400 a lot.  What a great combo.  That East wind is really different in the spring when the current is running.  With wind and water clipping along in the same direction it seems like you lose a wing size.  My 3.5 was just on the edge of too small in the lulls. 

I am interested to see where Axis goes with that 1600 to 1800 range. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 10, 2020, 04:23:32 AM
When more gen 2 wing dings hit the market, upgrade. The 102 will become faster. Youíll lose the urge to get off it.

With my 1020 I went from a 440 to a 370 rear, seems faster to me now and I am almost not breaching anymore
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 10, 2020, 05:24:29 AM
With my 1020 I went from a 440 to a 370 rear, seems faster to me now and I am almost not breaching anymore
Unfortunately that doesnít work well for heavy dudes in light wind.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: surfwingsteve on May 10, 2020, 07:16:24 AM
Pono Bill:
 "I'm always looking for equipment to compensate for my shortcomings."

I think this is so unique and hilarious for this sport.  Can't get upwind?  I need a harness.  Can't get up on the foil?  I clearly Need a bigger foil. Can't tack in low winds?  I need a bigger kite.....and It goes on and on doesn't it?  It did take a bigger kite, a bigger foil and a decent chunk of my daughters first year tuition in college to fly this thing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 10, 2020, 12:05:43 PM
With my 1020 I went from a 440 to a 370 rear, seems faster to me now and I am almost not breaching anymore
Unfortunately that doesnít work well for heavy dudes in light wind.
I have no problems in light winds @190 lbs . I have the feeling that a good pump technique is more helpfull than a big stabilizer.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 10, 2020, 06:56:56 PM
Pono Bill:
 "I'm always looking for equipment to compensate for my shortcomings."

I think this is so unique and hilarious for this sport.  Can't get upwind?  I need a harness.  Can't get up on the foil?  I clearly Need a bigger foil. Can't tack in low winds?  I need a bigger kite.....and It goes on and on doesn't it?  It did take a bigger kite, a bigger foil and a decent chunk of my daughters first year tuition in college to fly this thing.

Totally not unique to this sport--at least for me. I'm always looking for ways to buy a bump in expertise, from rollerblades to race cars. One of my heroes, the great Kas Kastner said: "Never be beaten by equipment". I take it a step or ten further. At age 73 it's no brag to say I have more money than time. If I can advance a step with my checkbook, I'm in. It doesn't always work, and you have to pick your horses carefully because a lot of stuff is a waste of both time and money, but sometimes...

Today was big fun. East wind at 20-25 with some big holes, but if you found the right place it was blowdryer wind--steady state. I used my 6M wing, which was too much, but I don't mind being a bit overpowered. Admin was nearly making his switchfoot jibes. Chan looked like she was so relaxed, she was probably mentally writing a to-do list. We seem to be getting to that point where little stuff matters more--I can feel little things, like I know my stabilizer was too big. It wasn't that long ago that all that mattered was "can I get up".
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 11, 2020, 03:17:01 AM
Geez that was fun.  That was 4.2 perfection for me.  Also my first day in the spring suit which is so liberating :).  I am really enjoying the 920 in these conditions.  It is a such a relaxed wing and it feels super predictable for turns.  It stays flying really well trough lulls.  Chan is turned on to the 820 now so when it hits 18 the 920 is available.  Both the 400 and the 370 tails are working great for me with this one.  I think I am going to use this as a middle ground between the light wind kit and the 1000/370.  Kind of my 18 to 25 setup.  Those bigger blasts on the Oregon side have been getting in to the low 30's and that was the only time that I was really on breach alert.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on May 11, 2020, 04:06:41 AM
Geez that was fun.  That was 4.2 perfection for me.  Also my first day in the spring suit which is so liberating :).  I am really enjoying the 920 in these conditions.  It is a such a relaxed wing and it feels super predictable for turns.  It stays flying really well trough lulls.  Chan is turned on to the 820 now so when it hits 18 the 920 is available.  Both the 400 and the 370 tails are working great for me with this one.  I think I am going to use this as a middle ground between the light wind kit and the 1000/370.  Kind of my 18 to 25 setup.  Those bigger blasts on the Oregon side have been getting in to the low 30's and that was the only time that I was really on breach alert.

Are you guys on your Fanatic wing boards yet? 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 11, 2020, 04:12:24 AM
Not yet.  They called last week to say that the container was arriving this week so it should be soon now.  Stoked to see how that goes.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on May 11, 2020, 10:36:57 AM
Apparently there is a new Axis front foil around the corner:  "1115".  I saw a quick video and it looked pretty high aspect and large.  Not sure where it fits in.
Interested in hearing more about this wing. Any link to the video you mentioned?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: RobM on May 11, 2020, 12:34:52 PM
I'm wondering what everyone is finding for range of the 1000/370/short fuse setup which I have.  I'm 185 (85kg) and using it from ~14 - 25 knots so far. I'm sure I'll be able to get going on it in lighter wind with better technique and time, finding it a bit unruly/breachy into the mid 20's and higher.
Cheers, stay healthy!  Rob
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 11, 2020, 01:22:28 PM
RobM,

The 1000 has no top end control limit for me. Try a smaller wing surfer when itís super windy.

Just had an ocean session with the 1000 and 390 today. The 390 is a freak. So good......

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: RobM on May 11, 2020, 02:05:08 PM
RobM,

The 1000 has no top end control limit for me. Try a smaller wing surfer when itís super windy.

Just had an ocean session with the 1000 and 390 today. The 390 is a freak. So good......

Thanks for info Dwight, only been using the Naish 5.3m as I've sold my v1 4m and waiting to get a 3.6m (none around at the moment), so I guess I'm just getting the 1000 foil a little "powered up" with the 5.3 in those 24+ kn days.  Rob
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 11, 2020, 03:18:37 PM
Itís not so much the foil is too powered up.

Itís more the wing-surfer is man handling the rider and taking away the touch, finesse, and feel, needed to ride the foil as well as you could. Going down a wing size, puts you back in command. You do a better job flying the foil, so you push it to the max with complete confidence.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 12, 2020, 05:11:54 AM
RobM,

The 1000 has no top end control limit for me. Try a smaller wing surfer when itís super windy.

Just had an ocean session with the 1000 and 390 today. The 390 is a freak. So good......

I thought I was ok with my 370 / 400 / 440 ...

How is the 390 with the S1020 and S1010 ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on May 14, 2020, 11:04:27 AM

How is the 390 with the S1020 and S1010 ?

After two sessions, one kite, one wing, the 390 with 1010 combo is working great. A lot better support back there than expected, even at a near standstill a few times. Would also mention since it was my first time on the 1010 that the slower roll rate with that wingspan definitely makes it easier to switch feet. Interestingly to me at least (and I can't quantify this yet), the 1010 definitely feels slower than my Gong L pro (which is 100cm2 smaller though), was really expecting to feel the opposite.

More testing today hopefully with the kite. Won't be winging two days in a row until I get the harness figured out, I'm really sore :(
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on May 14, 2020, 05:07:37 PM
The 390 rear wing is making the 1010 slow, try it on a 340 and it'll speed it up.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: unclesaltdog on May 14, 2020, 06:17:29 PM
How is the 390 with the S1020 and S1010 ?

I have been using 1000 and 1020 with a 400 tail but just got my hands on a 1010 plus 390 and 460 tail wings.
I've spent a bit of time SUP surfing some small waves with them but looking forward to some wind to try out some different combo's with the wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2020, 07:13:00 PM
I was trying to get a 390 but all Mark had in Maui was a 340. In theory, I was just trying it out, in practice, I thought it was fine and kept it. For some reason, I haven't used it winging yet, but as soon as we have some brisk wind instead of the semi-light or strong but east wind we've been having I'm going to give it a go. I expect it will be great.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on May 14, 2020, 07:40:22 PM
Hey Bill, we should trade stabs for a session, my 390 and your 340. Maybe next week, looks like we get back into a more predictable wind pattern.

 FL, it could be the larger board is just making it feel slower. Everything happens with a delay on the 6'11" vs the 4'5" which is 1/3 the weight. I think the 1010 is going to be a superb downwinding wing for our larger sized swells (winging). I pushed it into turns a little harder today and it will likely tighten those up even further with practice, that will be good enough for our conditions. Was afraid I'd be breaching tips but on the 90 mast so far it's been no problem. It's mine for at least the summer and I'm happy about it ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 15, 2020, 08:19:23 AM
You definitely need to push the 1010 to turn it, my 1020 turns without thinking, the 1010 takes commitment and intention. I learned to turn it better by doing a lot of swooping around on it while mowing the river.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on May 16, 2020, 09:57:42 AM
I wonder if Axis will introduce a wing bigger than their 1020 like Armstrong CF2400?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on May 16, 2020, 11:12:10 AM
The difference in size between the 1020 and 2400 isn't much. From looking at profiles I think the 1020 has more projected area. The bigger the foil gets, the slower it's going to be. With the way markets are moving, I think faster profiles, more glide, maybe wing specific shapes and down winder racing will be where there attention in design is going.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 17, 2020, 02:06:56 PM
The 390 rear wing is making the 1010 slow, try it on a 340 and it'll speed it up.

Fl what tails are you pairing with your various front wings?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on May 17, 2020, 02:51:20 PM
I wonder if Axis will introduce a wing bigger than their 1020 like Armstrong CF2400?

The 1020 has a much higher aspect ratio than the 2400.  Armstrong is the one that needs to make a wing like the 1020.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on May 17, 2020, 03:00:59 PM
For 1010 the 460 if I want more distance and stability in the pump with a little bit of turn. The 340 for super good turning. The 370 I let my buddies use when trying the 1010 so it's not too loose but still has good speed.
The 1000 I'll use the 370 or 340. The 1000 is for if I'm winging. If I drop in swell, I'll cut back and forth on the same swell, with the 390, it's more of a drop in swell and keep on it without going back and forth, sort of just ride the pocket.
All this is preference, you really need to try a few wings to see what fits your riding style. Once you feel it, you'll know instantly. Also what is good on a sup, prone, wing can all be different. The 390 also adds stability to the 1010 and helps with the aggressive turns in high winds but that's with the ultra short fuselage. So change of fuselage is a whole switch up of feeling also.
My main set up is the 1010 ultra short fuselage and 340 rear. Lets me pump quickly in the flat sections and get the turns in fast with continuous lift in the turn for catching the next wave
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 17, 2020, 04:32:21 PM
Good to know.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 18, 2020, 04:19:28 AM
Saw this wing on the Axis Facebook page. 

Maybe a 760?  They are calling it part of the surf performance line but no mention of size.  That looks really good.

760 and 860 may be a great blend for winging.

(https://scontent.fhio3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/96772545_622053108389088_4215918160924114944_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=12--liwBbCUAX8evDb2&_nc_ht=scontent.fhio3-1.fna&oh=309b3f6961983ea5b25e3f7a356b106c&oe=5EE82621)

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 18, 2020, 05:41:59 AM
Looks like Florida. Flkiter has probably ridden it. He is here today with the 1150 for me to try. He also brought me two more 390 tails. Iíve got 4 of them now. One to go with every front wing we own.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on May 18, 2020, 10:53:03 AM
Can't really give out details on the stuff coming out yet. Soon Axis will let us but all I can say is you will not be disappointed with what's coming. I've been really happy with what I've been able to test so far. If you want to see the 860, I think it was the 860 in action, check out Larry foiler. He has an awesome vid of it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2020, 12:41:46 AM
I put us on the order list for the two upcoming '60 sizes.  Those look great.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 23, 2020, 12:31:20 AM
I put us on the order list for the two upcoming '60 sizes.  Those look great.

You mean the 770 and 880?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 23, 2020, 01:43:53 AM
I asked Axis about the 880 and 770 but they responded about the upcoming 860 and 760.  They had mentioned that those are the models approved for production. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on May 23, 2020, 01:57:02 AM
I asked Axis about the 880 and 770 but they responded about the upcoming 860 and 760.  They had mentioned that those are the models approved for production.

Interesting, perhaps they just change the names or they came out one and two cm less wide...

I heard that these foils don't go straight, sounds interesting!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on May 23, 2020, 02:32:53 AM
I am not sure if those are/were other prospects or what.

It must drive Axis nuts to be pumping out a steady stream of cool kit and having us out here going, "you know what they should do next?" :)  I dig all of their foils so far and I am stoked to see what they do between the 920 and the 1000.  Something like a 920 on a diet or a 1000 that started on protein shakes.  A middle ground between their high an low aspect stuff for winging.  I am not sure if that is where the 860 or an 880 comes in but I am open to try. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on June 14, 2020, 06:44:03 AM
OK so the cat's out of the bag about the HA series 1150 wing and it's on the website. Any thoughts from you people who have ridden it?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on June 14, 2020, 07:25:32 AM
Which site is it on? I'll write a review up later. The 1150 has become my main foil for Florida waves and winging. The 1010 is also amazing and now with what I've learned on the 1150, I'm going to see if it transfers to the 1010.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on June 14, 2020, 08:16:26 AM
Based on the numbers I have seen, the 1150 has a SA between the 1020 and 1010 but the highest AR among the 3.  Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on June 19, 2020, 04:06:51 AM
I have been having great sessions on the 1000 wing and the new 960 carbon mast this week.  That is one amazing combination for normal wind (18 plus) but it can still hold its own down to 15 if the wind lessens.  I have been using the 920 if it is really light air.  I think that the ultra low drag of the carbon masts and the easy break from the water of the the new 5'4 Fanatic board are allowing smaller foil (and air wing) sizes.  I sold my larger foils, tails and I think my 6.0 Swing will be next.

My goal is to be able to use the 1000 in lighter winds as well.  The 1000 is requiring a very different takeoff technique for me, particularly in lighter wind.  It is like two wings.  Pre-takeoff 1000 and post-take off 1000.  I am finding that I need to generate pretty significant board speed on the surface before applying any lifting pressure or doing any board pumping at all.  If I go to early I get a swift "no".  Basically a kick and a slap.  When I have speed I have to ease it up softly.  I am actually moving my back foot forward when accelerating on the surface.  That keeps it from lifting prematurely and potentially stalling.  Once it is airborn, it is almost the opposite. Anything goes and it stays flying really well. So quick an nimble.  It is very addictive!

I still have some experimenting to do.  I have been using the 370 and 400 tails.  My original thought was that the larger classic tails would help ease it up in low wind but that took me in the wrong direction.  I ordered a 390 tail to see what that does. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on June 19, 2020, 07:44:08 AM
Been trying to up load a pic of the stats of the 1150. So here they are.
Wing span 115 cm for the world, for Americans 45inch
Actual area 1778 cm
Projected area 1713cm
Volume 2116cm
This has become my main wing for sup and wing'ing since it's summer time. I have it on the 370 rear and ultrashort fuselage. Tune it for your pump stance, a 1/4 inch off can make or break the endless pump and glide.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on June 19, 2020, 07:52:31 AM
I have the same experience with the 101, I have to get it really galloping to get up and can't push liftoff or I get denied--Maybe a quick pop but generally nothing. Once it's up it won't come down. It's a pure expression of lift being a function of the square of velocity, and the simple fact that we go a lot faster once we're in the air than we do on the surface. "Galloping" speed is probably no more than 5 or 6 mph if that. Once we're up and flying with these sleeker wings we probably are going at least double that speed. That means we have four times the lift force on tap which we're controlling with AOA to keep the wing wet. When the wind dies a bit the biggest problem is that the wing starts getting in the way. Otherwise, we'd keep flying for a long time. Any speed slightly over our liftoff speed supplies plenty of lift.

The 101 was designed for downwinding, and if you can pump it off the surface in a bump it's going to rock as long as there's any energy at all. The super-low drag of a 1400 sq in, thin airfoil wing lets it coast a silly long way between pulses of energy.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: supnorte on June 19, 2020, 10:31:19 AM
We had a 1150 pre-production wing here in Portugal. And my friend that's an expert on downwind and wing. This was his veredict:

"A mandatory wing for downwind. Used it in light downwind (10 knots) and it suprised me a lot; super easy lift, keeps the speed while flying with no oscilations or vibrations, which is impressive for it's huge span. Flight speed is moderate but I was able to pass to the bump ahead of me. Ok manouverablility."
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on June 22, 2020, 12:21:08 PM
So after months of not using it, I finally took my 4m f-one out yesterday and got my first flights.  I'm about 165 lbs, and was using my buddies axis 920 wing.  I have a 900, but feel like most days I don't have enough wind to get up on it with my 4m and my lack of skills at this point.  North Shore Oahu, winds are prob in the 15-20 range or less most of the time.  So now I want to get a bigger foil wing, and can't decide what I want?  920, 1020, 910, 1010, 1150?  My gut says 1020, but I'd like to be able to use whatever I get for prone foiling on tiny days too, and I know I won't like the slowness of the 1020.  Any thoughts? Anyone been able to try the 910, from what I've heard it's an amazing wing for prone surfing/downwind.

I sold my larger foils, tails and I think my 6.0 Swing will be next.
Admin, I'm interested when you're ready to sell.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on June 23, 2020, 03:04:24 AM
My gut says 1020

Hi Big,

What did you think of the 920?  That may be a better bet for 165 lbs if you are already up and riding.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on June 26, 2020, 05:11:27 PM
Caught a very powered 2.8 session today.  Meter was reading 32-40 when I launched and it held there for an hour and then slowly dropped.  Chan has been using the Axis 820 lately with a 370 tail so I took that out.  She has been loving it and I had not tried that wing since last year.  I had pretty well written it off but I realized that our smallest tail last year was a 440 and it seemed like I should give it a try with a smaller tail.  Stoked that I did.  That is a great wing.  It took me a few minutes to adjust to it but once I felt it, I really liked it.  Not bad to get flying and really loose and playful when its is up.  Plenty quick as well.  A half hour after the wind started to fade and it was 4.2 conditions for me.  The cool thing was that I could still get this thing going, even really underpowered.  Sweet.  I wonder what the real range is on this one.  July seems like a great month to find out :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on June 26, 2020, 09:02:23 PM
My evening session last night was on the 1010 front wing, 90 CM aluminum mast, and 440 tail shimmed to 3 degrees. Amazing. I suppose at some point I'm going to find something better, but that was so very cool. I discovered I can get going very fast (no GPS, sorry) by heeling out and giving little pumps with my back foot. I overtook a few of the less talented kite foilers that way, or perhaps they just didn't see me coming.

I have lots of hang time to get a switchfoot jibe done, but haven't figured out how to keep the turn going as I switch feet. The 1010 doesn't really want to turn--I get halfway into the jibe and the thing straightens out or even starts to turn back onto a reach, even with the wing overhead and fully feathered. I'm sure I'll figure it out. Until I do, it stays up until I completely run out of speed, and then it slams down to the surface.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on June 26, 2020, 10:41:24 PM
Caught a very powered 2.8 session today.  Meter was reading 32-40 when I launched and it held there for an hour and then slowly dropped.

Days like today I could see using a 910 or even a 900 instead of the 1010. The first half hour was terrifying, then it slowly came down to  fun 3.6 wind. Lots of mini downwinders over at the white Salmon (the kitesurfers must hate me, I'm so in the way ;D )

I was greedy though and didn't heed the warning signs, did the entire width of the river on my knees over to Wells, then deflated and paddled to the hook. By 3 it was coming back, had I just sat on my board for 1/2 an hour...

Tomorrow looks downright dangerous :o
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on June 27, 2020, 03:10:25 AM
Caught a very powered 2.8 session today.  Meter was reading 32-40 when I launched and it held there for an hour and then slowly dropped.

Days like today I could see using a 910 or even a 900 instead of the 1010. The first half hour was terrifying, then it slowly came down to  fun 3.6 wind. Lots of mini downwinders over at the white Salmon (the kitesurfers must hate me, I'm so in the way ;D )

I was greedy though and didn't heed the warning signs, did the entire width of the river on my knees over to Wells, then deflated and paddled to the hook. By 3 it was coming back, had I just sat on my board for 1/2 an hour...

I have a 900, 1000 and 820 with me so you can grab one if it is nuts like that again.  I saw you when you were cranking.  The swell in the channel was super fun.  2.8 is a hysterically small wing. The great thing about the 820 is how quickly and smoothly it turns.  It is 1443 projected but a little beefier so that may work in mellower winds as well.  I am interested to see.

It is supposed to stay very strong for a while.  We started winging and foiling exactly a year ago and we had a nuts week like this to kick off our adventure.  What a year!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 10, 2020, 07:20:26 AM
Anyone know where to source 316 stainless M8 x 1.25 (I think this is the thread pitch) flat countersunk Torx drive bolts for Axis foils?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on July 10, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
Live2kite.com has bolt sets in stock. Some marine stores carry M8 stainless with a #4 Phillips head.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 10, 2020, 08:49:58 AM
You can dig into the depths of Alibaba and find what you need. M8 is an unusual screw size, M6 is much more common, so you'll have to dig. M8 is more typically a hex head bolt. I found a great supplier, bought what I thought was a reasonable supply, and now I can't find the outfit again--but it's there. Typically I'd say McMaster-Carr since they have about everything, but they don't stock stainless M8 countersink screws in either Torx or Allen.

I'm fixated on Torx for everything. So much better than Phillips or Allen if you're going to be taking the screws in and out a lot.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 10, 2020, 09:01:04 AM
I have ordered from these guys before:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078YZ248Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 10, 2020, 01:36:19 PM
You can dig into the depths of Alibaba and find what you need. M8 is an unusual screw size, M6 is much more common, so you'll have to dig. M8 is more typically a hex head bolt. I found a great supplier, bought what I thought was a reasonable supply, and now I can't find the outfit again--but it's there. Typically I'd say McMaster-Carr since they have about everything, but they don't stock stainless M8 countersink screws in either Torx or Allen.

I'm fixated on Torx for everything. So much better than Phillips or Allen if you're going to be taking the screws in and out a lot.

Torx is even better if you're NOT going to be taking them in and out a lot ..... and they seize up. Possible to get a lot more torque on the Torx heads before they strip requiring plan B and plan C. I wish I didn't have as much experience with this as I do.  :-[
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 10, 2020, 01:39:57 PM
I have ordered from these guys before:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078YZ248Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These are hex.... did you get Torx bolts from them or just Hex.  These are stainless 304 (not recommended for marine applications). Do they hold up OK? I'll see if they see to have Torx.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 10, 2020, 03:03:02 PM
You can dig into the depths of Alibaba and find what you need. M8 is an unusual screw size, M6 is much more common, so you'll have to dig. M8 is more typically a hex head bolt. I found a great supplier, bought what I thought was a reasonable supply, and now I can't find the outfit again--but it's there. Typically I'd say McMaster-Carr since they have about everything, but they don't stock stainless M8 countersink screws in either Torx or Allen.

I'm fixated on Torx for everything. So much better than Phillips or Allen if you're going to be taking the screws in and out a lot.

Torx is even better if you're NOT going to be taking them in and out a lot ..... and they seize up. Possible to get a lot more torque on the Torx heads before they strip requiring plan B and plan C. I wish I didn't have as much experience with this as I do.  :-[

Yeah, don't do that. Also don't spin them in at anything much faster than what you can do by hand with your drillmotor or impact driver. Stainless on stainless or stainless on aluminum is prone to galling and seizing. Doesn't require high torque. You should always use an anti-seize compound. I like Tef-Gel but it's messy.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 10, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
I have ordered from these guys before:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078YZ248Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These are hex.... did you get Torx bolts from them or just Hex.  These are stainless 304 (not recommended for marine applications). Do they hold up OK? I'll see if they see to have Torx.

Yes, these worked well.  I got the hex head.  I only used them in fresh water though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Keys Sup on July 11, 2020, 10:09:48 AM
Try accu.co.uk
You can find 304/A2 in USA but not many 316/A4.
Shipping was a few days to East Coast.
Got M6-25, M8-25 and M8-35 in SS 316/A4 DIN 965.
M8-70 SS 316/A4 ISO 14581.
Stock Axis bolts fit the bit the tightest followed by DIN 965.
ISO 14581 is the sloppiest.
Live2Kite said they would try to find bolt specs.
Need extra torque on or off? Try these Wera Keys. Straight end has a slightly larger bit to hold screw on end.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 11, 2020, 08:31:16 PM
DIN 965 (now called ISO 965 or ISO 7046) is just a standard for metric screws that specifies major and minor diameters and tolerances. It doesn't specify the head drive type. ISO 14581 is a hexalobe head screw, and yes, a standard Torx will be a crappy fit, since that isn't what you are supposed to use. If you can find the right hexalobe driver bit (good luck) it will be quite snug and will handle a lot of torque. Hexalobe is the grown-up version of Torx. I have hexalobe driver bits but they are for very tiny screws, like the ones you find inside your iPhone.

That's a pretty cool site--they have stuff I can't find anywhere. They're probably in biz to support the British motorsports industry. You probably just cost me quite a bit of money, like the first time I discovered ARP, so thanks, I guess.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Keys Sup on July 11, 2020, 08:42:49 PM
I am going to buy another set from Axis as like you said the hexalobe bit will be hard to find.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 11, 2020, 11:44:59 PM
If you really want to give yourself fits try to find pentalobe bits and screws. Even higher torque capabilties but rare as hens teeth.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Keys Sup on July 12, 2020, 11:51:59 AM
While looking up Hexalobe info found that the M8-70 ISO 14581 takes a T45 not the T40 like the M8 DIN 965. Made the mistake of thinking all M8 screws had the same Torx size bit.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 12, 2020, 02:15:10 PM
Weirdness abounds in the fastener world.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 12, 2020, 04:19:33 PM
Two amazing days here that feel like a new chapter in foiling for me.  Yesterday, I set out to make friends with the Axis 1000.  I had ordered a 390 tail a few weeks ago which I had not used yet.  Yesterday was day one.  My understanding of that tail is that it has less downward angle than the earlier tails and therefore gives the front foil a lower angle of attack.  Less drag to take off and quicker overall.  I had hoped that this would minimize the initial jump and stall that I had been finding with the 1000.  It does that really well.  It took me a half hour to unlearn my 1000 habits.  After that I had the most amazing 3.5 Swing session (22 to 35).  I was pretty well convinced after that session that the 1000/390 was my new go-to kit, but I was wrong. 

That was a chunky 3.5 day.  Today was 15-17 mph base wind.  I wanted to see if the 1000/390 would work in that lighter air as well.  Whoo!  Such a fun session.  It took off super smooth and easy and was just an incredible pleasure to ride.  All of the jerkiness and stop and go stuff that I had experienced with the deep diver tails was gone.  So now I am very stoked and I start thinking about the 900 which is getting lonely in the car.  I am wondering what the 390 will do for that little beauty.  I go in, do a quick swap, give the 1000 to Bill for a test, and off we go.  Well holy shit.  First I watch Bill from shore.  He slides up on a foil like he was on an escalator - in really light wind.  Then I get started on the 900 and, same freaking thing.  We were screaming like idiots out there for another hour and a half. 

The 900/390 is beyond epic.  It is super quick, accelerates, pumps and pivots like crazy.  Best yet, it carves a turn like a surfboard.  None of that resistance or delay that you get with the wider beefier wings.  This is where its at. 

I did order another 900 for Chan, because she is going to need one and I ordered a couple more 390's because I don't want to use anything else now, and some ultra short fuselages for good measure.  I had previously though that the 900 at 1184 square cm would pretty much be a high wind only foil but now I am considering it my number one for good 5.0 and above.  I am actually wondering how it feels with a powered 6. 

Coupled with the 96 cm carbon mast the 900/390 feels hysterically low drag.  I was fully buzzed when I got out of the water.  This keeps getting better :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 12, 2020, 05:00:59 PM
I asked for more sizes of the 390. I think I could go smaller with the 900.

Jacky runs the 390 on the 920 and 900. I run it on the 1000.

I was running the 390 with 1020, but after some back to back testing in uber light wind, I backed off that idea. While it pumped great with the 390 on it, it did give up power at the absolute limits of low end. Need more 390 sizes. One larger, one smaller.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 12, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
My hands and arms feel like they belong to someone else, but that was crazy fun. I was using a 440 tail, but it's shimmed to just under 3 degrees, and felt fine. I just went and spent a stupid amount of money on the Axis site for a carbon mast, short fuselage, 1000 and 900 wings and a 390 tail. I should have just stolen Admin's 1000 and called it good. Stoke is hard on the wallet.

In that light wind I thought the 1000 was going to be impossible to get up, but the low drag let me build a lot of speed on the water. You can't get sloppy and let it stall--it won't recover. You just bang back down to the surface like you have no foil. But I discovered I could torque it up by turning upwind and then sweeping the board downwind while I pulled on the wing. Once you've come off the surface there isn't much drag, so it accelerates immediately to a high enough speed that you can come up smoothly.

I think shimming the 340 to a little less up angle might make for a wicked fast setup.

It also doesn't really overfoil, or at least when it does, it recovers gracefully. I got it up on it's tiptoes a few times but instead of tipping over it just settles a little and keeps going. I'm not going to test that a lot, falling at whatever speed we were reaching (STUPID fast) is not the same as a little oopsie with a 1020. It felt like I could leave some body parts the few times I fell at high speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 13, 2020, 09:22:47 AM
Try accu.co.uk
You can find 304/A2 in USA but not many 316/A4.
Shipping was a few days to East Coast.
Got M6-25, M8-25 and M8-35 in SS 316/A4 DIN 965.
M8-70 SS 316/A4 ISO 14581.
Stock Axis bolts fit the bit the tightest followed by DIN 965.
ISO 14581 is the sloppiest.
Live2Kite said they would try to find bolt specs.
Need extra torque on or off? Try these Wera Keys. Straight end has a slightly larger bit to hold screw on end.

Yeah, as PonoBill said, the site accu.co.uk that Keys Sup recommended is a great site for fasteners. 

The M8-70 A4/316 Stainless Torx head are a special order (need 25 or more for special order - I requested a quote... but may be prohibitive). The M8-70 SS 316/A4 ISO 14581 (hex) in catalog are an OK substitution. @Keys Sup Thanks again for pointing out this fasteners web site.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: all~wet on July 13, 2020, 10:18:57 AM
Love hearing that report regarding winging on the 1000/390 as that's the biggest I've got in my arsenal. What are the odds of a 200 LBer w/ prone and SUP surf experience learning to wing on a 1000/390??
In 10-15kts w/  and 6' SUP and a 6.0 wing?  I assume the 1020 would be ideal, but don't want to spend $ for a wing I'd never surf, use briefly on a wing then want something faster. Is learning w/ that combo/conditions a reasonable expectation?  Would mean I'm just short wing to get going  :o
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 13, 2020, 11:31:28 AM
Love hearing that report regarding winging on the 1000/390 as that's the biggest I've got in my arsenal. What are the odds of a 200 LBer w/ prone and SUP surf experience learning to wing on a 1000/390??
In 10-15kts w/  and 6' SUP and a 6.0 wing?  I assume the 1020 would be ideal, but don't want to spend $ for a wing I'd never surf, use briefly on a wing then want something faster. Is learning w/ that combo/conditions a reasonable expectation?  Would mean I'm just short wing to get going  :o

Do I understand that you are already foiling on the 1000/390?  Is that for SUP foil?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 13, 2020, 01:16:09 PM
Yup. I think for me it's a two wing quiver. 1020 for super light wind, 1000/390 for everything else, plus maybe a 1150 for SUP downwind in the unlikely event that actually works. But if I lost 20 pounds I'd probably ditch the 1020 as well.

For you maybe just shim the back of the 390 you have to make it a bit easier to pop up. A thin washer will do it. Then switch to 390 with no shim and party like a rockstar.

I'm still stunned at the difference that wing made. It's a bigger change than doing races on a surf SUP and switching to a Bullet 17.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: all~wet on July 13, 2020, 11:17:12 PM


"Do I understand that you are already foiling on the 1000/390?  Is that for SUP foil?"

Hey Admin,
Yeah- that's right.
I've been mostly prone foiling lately- own the 900, 1000, mostly use the 390 stab since I got it last month (I picked up the 860 last week so still adjusting, but after 2 sessions- I'm loving it already) The 1000 is a lot of foil for prone, so I really haven't used the 1000 too much. I mostly got it for small surf on the SUP.  Anyhow- in anticipation of picking up Winging and wanting to get myself reacclimatized to SUP... and because there was micro surf- I SUP foiled today for the first time in a while. Blown out, waist high crap surf using the 1000/390... managed to have lots of fun mostly pumping around and turning on nothing. Foiling is awesome.

Appreciate the feedback Pono-
Great- it definitely sounds it's at the very least worth a go to learn the Wing on the 1000/390 combo and likely to be a really good combo soon. Shimming the stab is a good idea.  Any more direct experience appreciated!

So my mission is clear- get my hands on a 6.0 wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 14, 2020, 12:53:41 AM
All~wet,

My gut is that you will be fine on that kit (1000/390) - you certainly will be long term.  You already are comfortable foiling, taking off, pumping, etc.  You will pick up the wing side of things pretty quickly.  We have watched a lot of new foilers here now and we are seeing that everyone pays their dues on the foiling part at some point.  There is a lot of new learning there and that takes time.  You are starting with that experience and that will go a long way. 

The 1020 and 920 lift off super smoothly and are very confidence inspiring while you are focusing on the million other things that are going on.  They are also very fun to ride.  If you didn't already own wings (and definitely if you didn't have your foiling experience) those would be a safe choice for starting.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 14, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
I picked up the 860 last week so still adjusting, but after 2 sessions- I'm loving it already

That sounds like an amazing wing set.  Would you mind posting an image of your 900 with the 860?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: all~wet on July 14, 2020, 09:01:38 AM
I picked up the 860 last week so still adjusting, but after 2 sessions- I'm loving it already

That sounds like an amazing wing set.  Would you mind posting an image of your 900 with the 860?

Thanks for the feedback!  Yeah- I'll grab some shots of the 860 v 900 this afternoon.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: all~wet on July 14, 2020, 06:46:21 PM
Here is the 900 and 860 comparison.
Hint:
The 860 is wing w/ dihedral, longer cord, shorter wingspan.
The 900 is wing w/ anhedral, shorter cord, longer wingspan

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/ih2xn67qo7eywwn/IMG_4001.gif?dl=0)

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/mbau6nm62mptl8d/IMG_4005.jpeg?dl=0)

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/gy5vx1qzunvv4pr/IMG_4003.JPG?dl=0)

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/rttfp0cv26rs6h2/IMG_4002.jpeg?dl=0)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 15, 2020, 02:45:40 AM
Vert cool all~wet.  The 860 looks like a great addition.

The 900/390 continues to blow my mind up.  I wanted to get a day where it was very light and check out this combo with my 6.0 meter Swing.  Basically to see what it would do in the lightest conditions that we ride in (conditions where I would have previously used the 1020 or 920).  My old way of thinking had me believing that only a big foil would generate enough lift to get me up in that wind.  Yesterday was perfect for that. 

Summer brings us these periods of hot, beautiful days that almost always build to soft afternoon westerlies.  These are the winds that fill the days until something shows up to cool things down (that cooling after a hot spell almost always brings us a major blast).  A lot of these hot days used to be write off days.  The kiters and later kite foilers would be out in force but windsurfers were largely sidelined.  Winging has us out with or before the first kiters on these days.  Solo sessions in the middle of summer.  Nice. 

Yesterday we went early (too early) and caught the whole ramp up to what would be a super smooth 15 mph afternoon.  I launched into light puff (10, 12?) and foiled right up with very little effort.  This combo likes a bit of flat speed before take off.  I am learning that it doesn't take a long stretch, but it does need those few yards of acceleration.  A shorter slope from an accessible swell is perfect when its windy but when that is not present it takes a little room and a few big wing pumps.  The nice thing is that in these light condition you have flat for days so any suitable puff will get you up.  There is so little drag from this kit that it hits the required speed really quickly.  Sweet. 

The sensations once you are up are amazing.  Slice.  That pretty well sums it up.  The additional speed you get will make you laugh and can carry you through some very dead spots on apparent wind only.  Absolutely amazing.  You are out there spotting minorly darker patches of water to transition. 

This all has me recalibrating.  I am not sure what role there is for the 1000 now at my weight.  The 900/390 covers the lightest wind that I go in.  I would never have expected that. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 15, 2020, 08:51:31 AM
Axis is shipping me everything but the mast and 900 wing. I think you bought them out of everything. Two weeks on the 900 wing, three MONTHS on the carbon mast. You bastard.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on July 15, 2020, 12:52:09 PM
Reading all this is giving me high aspect wing envy.  Armstrong reportedly has some in development.  Canít wait.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 15, 2020, 12:59:28 PM
Today I learned another tail wing lesson.

My 2100 sq cm Moses has been slippery and fast for me, yet I know two other people who own them, and describe it is a beast.

Turns out it is the TAIL wing causing these radically different opinions.

Just as the Axis 390 tail changed your life. The big Moses with the 483 tail versus the 450 tail, is a night and day different package.

I took side by side photos of them. They look identical in area, but are radically different in how they affect the whole package. SHOCKING. The 483 gives the package the speed of the Axis 900, while the 450 makes it act the Axis 102. Twilight zone shit happening right there. 4-5 mph faster every reach with the 483 tail.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50116153018_220c12caf4_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 15, 2020, 05:44:48 PM
You might want to measure the incidence angle of the two stabilizers. Most manufacturers are cranking in some angle. Cranking it back out can dramatically change how wing sets perform. A plus incidence angle (rear edge of the tail lifted) applies force to increase the angle of attack of the main wing which increases lift of wings, especially those with a higher foil coefficient. It also increases drag. I can't say this is bad, it makes the wing easier to lift and firms up pitch control. But it's not the route to higher speed, and it takes more front leg pressure to keep the wing trimmed. Measuring the Axis 440 tail yields a little over 5.2 degrees positive incidence angle. The 101 is fairly slow with this tail. Shimming it to reduce the incidence to 3 degrees makes the 101 come alive. Apparently the 390 has a zero incidence--at least that's what Admin told me. I haven't measured it. As soon as I finish making my new incidence meter I'll be playing with all my Axis wing/tail combinations. I ordered a model airplane incidence angle gauge, but it's not here yet and it looks a little rickety. I have a good gyroscopic angle gauge that I'm mounting to a sliding clamp that should give good repeatable results. I just need to stop foiling and finish making it.

I know you know all this DW, but others probably don't.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on July 15, 2020, 06:26:30 PM
So I have an 1150 on the way and am wondering which stabilizer I shought get? I weigh about 245 lbs. and will be winging with this setup with a 76 mast and standard fuse. This will be my first Axis setup. I'm thinking the 460? Anyone have a 460 they would like to sell? I guess Axis is out of stabs for the next couple weeks :-/
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 15, 2020, 09:35:23 PM
The 460 looks like a pretty weird design. I think it's for flat out speed and probably doesn't help much with turning. I'd probably go with either a 440 or a 370 and probably shim them to 3 degrees or less.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 16, 2020, 12:52:09 AM
You might want to measure the incidence angle of the two stabilizers. Most manufacturers are cranking in some angle. Cranking it back out can dramatically change how wing sets perform. A plus incidence angle (rear edge of the tail lifted) applies force to increase the angle of attack of the main wing which increases lift of wings, especially those with a higher foil coefficient. It also increases drag. I can't say this is bad, it makes the wing easier to lift and firms up pitch control. But it's not the route to higher speed, and it takes more front leg pressure to keep the wing trimmed. Measuring the Axis 440 tail yields a little over 5.2 degrees positive incidence angle. The 101 is fairly slow with this tail. Shimming it to reduce the incidence to 3 degrees makes the 101 come alive. Apparently the 390 has a zero incidence--at least that's what Admin told me. I haven't measured it. As soon as I finish making my new incidence meter I'll be playing with all my Axis wing/tail combinations. I ordered a model airplane incidence angle gauge, but it's not here yet and it looks a little rickety. I have a good gyroscopic angle gauge that I'm mounting to a sliding clamp that should give good repeatable results. I just need to stop foiling and finish making it.

I know you know all this DW, but others probably don't.

It was actually DW that had mentioned to me that the 390 runs at zero angle of attack.  I believe that he was referring to the stabilizer angle only not as a relationship to any specific front wing.  Mark was using the Delta setup (below) on the beach which measures stabilizer angle in relation to a specific front wing but that number will change based on the front wing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on July 16, 2020, 01:15:34 AM
Here's a simple shim idea I just got from my pal.  My first day on a 1010 had my foot forward of the strap to keep the foil from stalling.  I'll find out how it works tomorrow.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: obxDave on July 16, 2020, 02:41:45 AM
Today I learned another tail wing lesson.

My 2100 sq cm Moses has been slippery and fast for me, yet I know two other people who own them, and describe it is a beast.

Turns out it is the TAIL wing causing these radically different opinions.

Just as the Axis 390 tail changed your life. The big Moses with the 483 tail versus the 450 tail, is a night and day different package.

I took side by side photos of them. They look identical in area, but are radically different in how they affect the whole package. SHOCKING. The 483 gives the package the speed of the Axis 900, while the 450 makes it act the Axis 102. Twilight zone shit happening right there. 4-5 mph faster every reach with the 483 tail.

I sold my 483 and bought the 450. Now Iím rebuying a 483.  Will the madness never end!?!? Wait, isnít this an Axis thread? :o
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 16, 2020, 04:02:42 PM
I sold my 483 and bought the 450. Now Iím rebuying a 483.  Will the madness never end!?!? Wait, isnít this an Axis thread? :o

I checked the AOA of the two tail wings. The 483 is 1.5 degrees lower.

Adding a single 6mm washer in the rear of the 450 get the AOA the same on both tails.

BTW, thickness of the two wings is the same.

Hope to try the 450 shimmed tomorrow.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 17, 2020, 02:58:48 AM
There is a kid here riding a 679 with a 483.  He is killing it.

Has anyone 3D printed the shims that Axis has pdf's for?  I would like to try to flatten some of our down diver tails to see how those roll.  It would also be great to know the angle of the tails only as a base line.  I know that I am loving the 390 so if I know the angle of that (is it actually zero ?) and the others are for instance 3 I will know how much to adjust.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 17, 2020, 04:51:59 AM
Hum...canít you just tell Bill to do it  ;D

My calipers wouldnít reach over my front wing, so I donít know my tail angle compared to the front. But who cares when I know the 483 works great. So I measured the angle of the 483 to the fuselage, then measured the 450 the same way. 1.5 degrees lower. Good enough  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 17, 2020, 12:04:51 PM
So I watched the video and modified an old set of calipers to do the same thing. Fine for high aspect, several inches short for low aspect. I already had the same magnetic digital angle indicator though mine isn't called Wixey and I lost the battery compartment cover some time ago, but it's back in action. I'll make version 3 of my gauge as soon as I have some time, the idea of using a narrow V for the attachment is a great one. I used a piece of 1/2" angle stainless and it was wobbly. The calipers need holding, my gauge design uses a sliding spring to hold tension.

Okay, I have to go make this, I just realized what I need to do. More later.

Oh, and yeah, I'll crank out a bunch of front shims. I've been using washers but it's not pretty. I have the file, but I need to modify it and get my creaky old 3D printers working.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 17, 2020, 01:41:08 PM
I rode the 450 tail today shimmed. Nothing special. Switched to the 483 and took off like a rocket. 4 mph faster on the first run. Topped out 6 mph faster on the day.

Best leave wing design to the professionals. The 390 is the magic Axis tail, and the 483 is the magic Moses. Just take my money and let them figure this shit out  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on July 17, 2020, 02:28:50 PM
Has anyone 3D printed the shims that Axis has pdf's for?  I would like to try to flatten some of our down diver tails to see how those roll.  It would also be great to know the angle of the tails only as a base line.  I know that I am loving the 390 so if I know the angle of that (is it actually zero ?) and the others are for instance 3 I will know how much to adjust.

Agreed! Would love to know the angles of the 370 and 400 stabs compared to the 390.

Got the 390 yesterday, and noticed the foil felt smoother and it pumped better compared to the 370 I've been using. (900 front)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 17, 2020, 04:27:47 PM
I was on my 1010/440 with the tail shimmed to 3 degrees today in nuking wind. On my 4.2 wing at first because I lent my 3.5 to a neighbor. In the blasting wind my wing was flopping and pulling all over the place--typical mega-overpowered--but the foil was calm and stable. Despite the chaos, I could do whatever I wanted. My neighbor showed up and I got the 3.5 from her and had a blast. The wing was still going nuts and most of the time it was feathered over my head, but even in the insane swells my foil was rock solid.

I'll have my 1000, 900 and 390 next Monday or Tuesday. I can't wait. I plan to do some testing on stabilizer angles to get a better idea of what's going on. We have a fairly extreme set of conditions with wingfoiling, especially for riders who don't use a harness. Kites, wind foilers, and harnessed wing foilers all drop the center of effort a couple of feet. It will be interesting to see what level of stabilization works best for arms-only wing foilers.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on July 17, 2020, 07:52:10 PM
Well I took Bill's advice since what he told me made sense.  And wow what a difference.  Rock steady and no noticeable decrease in the ability to get lifted, (in light wind to boot)  Weighting was perfect.  I could have had a conversation, I was so relaxed.  And then I did a jibe on foil.  Wow what a day.   Thanks Bill.  So that was a 1010 front foil with a 400 stab.  This was my second day on the 1010 and it felt like an old friend.  Boy does it go fast.  Starting to get used to speed without thinking I'm going to hit the wall on the bank at Daytona.  Now I'm really excited.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 18, 2020, 05:14:07 AM
I was on my 1010/440 with the tail shimmed to 3 degrees today in nuking wind. On my 4.2 wing at first because I lent my 3.5 to a neighbor. In the blasting wind my wing was flopping and pulling all over the place--typical mega-overpowered--but the foil was calm and stable. Despite the chaos, I could do whatever I wanted. My neighbor showed up and I got the 3.5 from her and had a blast. The wing was still going nuts and most of the time it was feathered over my head, but even in the insane swells my foil was rock solid.

I'll have my 1000, 900 and 390 next Monday or Tuesday. I can't wait. I plan to do some testing on stabilizer angles to get a better idea of what's going on. We have a fairly extreme set of conditions with wingfoiling, especially for riders who don't use a harness. Kites, wind foilers, and harnessed wing foilers all drop the center of effort a couple of feet. It will be interesting to see what level of stabilization works best for arms-only wing foilers.

Yesterday was so fun.  Awesome overpowered 4.2 for 45 minutes, just right 3.5 for 45 (did my best LE handle riding ever), another half hour of "I'm not rigging again" meltdown.  I never got bucked by the foil.  I was getting trashed by the wing at the end though.  Those were 2.8 moments for me.  I do want to know if the 390 is actually at zero degrees to the fuselage/board.  I don't feel like I am anywhere near a stability limit.  Could it go lower?

We ordered the 760 and 860 as well.  Those should be coming mid week. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: SUPladomi on July 18, 2020, 05:25:17 AM
Yesterday was so fun.  Awesome overpowered 4.2 for 45 minutes, just right 3.5 for 45 (did my best LE handle riding ever), another half hour of "I'm not rigging again" meltdown.  I never got bucked by the foil.  I was getting trashed by the wing at the end though.  Those were 2.8 moments for me.  I do want to know if the 390 is actually at zero degrees to the fuselage/board.  I don't feel like I am anywhere near a stability limit.  Could it go lower?
Sounds like it was awesome. I just have to chuckle at the sentence in bold. I'm a 30 year windsurfer and 20 year kiter and finally winged for the first time yesterday and it was my most awesome rigging experience ever. Ha ha!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on July 18, 2020, 07:51:00 AM
I just have to chuckle at the sentence in bold. I'm a 30 year windsurfer and 20 year kiter and finally winged for the first time yesterday and it was my most awesome rigging experience ever. Ha ha!

The rigging for this sport is really a highlight, just a hair more complicated than paddling. I've even taken to just bringing one size wing with me most of the time and so far haven't missed a session (only have a 5.3 and 3.6 though).

Sounds like it did finally pick up in the corridor yesterday, I got impatient... We, (two surfskis an OC-1 and me winging) did Celilo to the Rufus boat ramp yesterday (13 miles downwind). This is a super interesting run as you can go through Hells Canyon to get around Miller island. It looks daunting but it's really straightforward, good wind all the way through every time I've done it, just can't take a break behind the cliffs on the exit like the paddlers do. It's so narrow sometimes it's one continuous wave from one side to the other. I'd say this is actually a better run overall than Blalock to Arlington with continuous surfing on big swell for 10+ of the 13 miles through Maryhill, the wall, etc. it just keeps rolling. My right thigh finally just went out from under me down past Rufus and I had to just lay flat on my board for five minutes just rolling around out there :)

Those guys can pretty well keep up with me on the Axis 1010 / 390 in the smaller stuff and if I go in I'm playing catch up. Once into the bigger waves though even the surfskis are falling far behind. The foil is really the ultimate tool for those big smooth ocean like rollers from well before the Maryhill bridge and on down well past Rufus ;D

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on July 18, 2020, 10:13:57 AM
I recently got an 1010 Axis so I would have it when I got 'good enough'.   I had heard a few accounts how it was alot more difficult.  But after gazing at it, admiring it, I decided to slap the thing on and give it a try.    On the first day, it did have an inclination to climb quickly and needed the front foot forward of my strap.  But the second day, following Bill's tip to shim the 400 stab in the back was, pardon the cliche, a 'gamechanger'.  Front foot could return to strap position and didn't require heavy pressure.  This was the first time I felt the pitch control thru my legs.  I'd been lifted many times before but there was no sensitivity, no feedback.  I liked the 920 but the 1010 is the 'hot babe'  where your sense of touch is on steroids, yet another cliche.  Oh and before the shim of the stab, Alan noticed a ripple wave proceeding my front wing.  After the shim, none.  Cathy turned me on to a shim she got from HR Rod when he was over here.  Haven't tried it yet but washer works dyno.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on July 18, 2020, 11:50:23 AM
The stab shim topic is an interesting one to me, I hope you guys will keep experimenting and report back. Happy as I am with the stock performance of the 1010 / 390 combo, I still feel like my back leg is doing 75% of the work. As I've gotten more used to it I've narrowed up my stance some which has helped.

For serious pumping my back foot foot moves forward several inches, don't know if that's typical. Feels like it will stay on foil down to like 3mph but that's almost always because I've carved across or even back a wave letting one pass because I wasn't going to connect. Then it's back to going downhill. Amazing how it'll go from 3 to prbly 23mph, a lot of energy in this windswell  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 18, 2020, 09:28:34 PM
You mean Hell's Gate, a well-named piece of water when it's nuking. I did a SUP downwinder there in the late fall two years ago and wound up freezing to the point of hypothermia (Lycra and a paddle jacket=stupid).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 23, 2020, 04:00:44 PM
Three incredible 3.5 sessions today in super gusty, very strong (in the blasts) wind. 

Each session was on a different front wing.  900, 860 and then 760.  96 cm mast and short fuselage, all with the flat-magic 390 tail.

I have been only riding the 900 since I tried it with the 390 ten days ago so I started with that.  Super fun.  Amazing glide through the holes and it stuck with me even as I was getting reshaped by the massive gusts.  On a normal day I would have stayed out but with the new 860 and 760 in the car, no way. 

The 860 is a subtle gullwing shape.  It is a very thin wing that has a small thicker section for 3 or so inches at the fuselage. It has an area of 1212 cm squared projected.  It is less high aspect than the 900 but itis way different than the 820, 920, 1020 in terms of feel.  This is a super lively wing and it is very quick.  I love this one.  I had a great session on it and headed in for the 760.

Yow!  This 760 is a red Stratocaster.  Holy shit!  This one has more gullwing, 30 inch wingspan and 1130 projected.  Super low resistance, very fast, it has a loose trucks skatey feel, and is generally awesome. 

I need more days to figure out which ones I am going to use when, but man, is that an insane threesome.  My gut is that the 760 is the one that I will want to ride.  How often and in what conditions that will work will take more days.  The 860 seems like an incredible middle ground.  I know that I can use the 900 in the lowest winds that I go in. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 23, 2020, 04:43:24 PM
While you were having fun I was getting flogged. I went on my 4.2 at first with the 1135 just as a goofy experiment. I tried it last night in next to no wind, and it was remarkable--I felt how I assume those under 100 pound kids feel when they're on ordinary gear--like i could coast forever. I think this wing might actually enable me to downwind SUP foil. But in overpowered, high wind, gusty conditions I felt like it might kill me, so I came in for my 1000 and the 3.4 Swing.

The 3.5 sucked with all the lulls, so I came back in and got the 4.2, which was fine except in the insane gusts. I have no idea what those gusts were but they ripped the wing out of my hands twice. I'm trying hard to iron out my jibe, and that wasn't helping. I hit the water hard a couple of times and then got really crossed up in mid-jibe when a big gust hit, bounced off the front of my board, whacking my knee, and then faceplanted into the wing. Okay, done. I realized I was probably going to break something other than gear if I kept it up, so I bailed.

High wind is great when it's steady, but that was a mess.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on July 23, 2020, 05:53:30 PM


High wind is great when it's steady, but that was a mess.

Agreed, it was a mess at Viento as well, 15-40+. I would have just gone out from Luhr Jensen but looked too gusty to give the Gong Large Pro a try winging (my kitefoil setup). In retrospect it would have been fine in town early, the 40's at Viento made it more survival than testing foils. So far all I can say is "it works".

Admin, can't wait to get a look at the 860 :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 23, 2020, 10:01:21 PM
Admin, can't wait to get a look at the 860 :)

You are welcome to take it out for a spin.  Probably best to try it with a carbon mast so you can match what I am feeling.  Let me know and I will bring an extra mast.  You will want to try the 760 foil also.  It is mind-bending the wings this flat tail opens up.  I changed our backorder from the 900 to a 660 foil.  The speed difference on the 760 foil is freaky.  I think it is going to drop your drawers.  You may just leave 20 in the dust on your fancy pants watch :).  I let it loose on a couple of runs when the wind behaved for a moment and bwahh, hhah, ha!  I wonder what that 660 will feel like.  They look like impossible tiny little toys but, so far it works.  I wonder how they do with larger air wings in lighter wind. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on July 24, 2020, 07:46:04 AM


You are welcome to take it out for a spin. 

Thanks, today looks like it's probably a downwinder type of day where I'm too chicken to experiment. Looks like this weekend there'll be some conditions for experiments. I've been holding back on Axis purchases hoping the Gong setup will cover me for higher wind but from my short session yesterday I may be too spoiled now by the 1010's glide. I do really want to try the 460 tail though (and even the 370). I love the 390 and it's not like I'm missing any waves downwinding for lack of speed but if I could go faster at will and still slow it down (and turn) when needed, why not.

If these numbers are correct on the Google doc, (the aspect ratios of the tails don't appear to be i.e. the 340 shows higher than the 370), the 390 has the highest volume of ANY of the Axis tails. Volume of course not the only factor but I was surprised to see this.

390 = 242.55 cc
370 = 123.28
460 = 81.39




Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 25, 2020, 01:53:07 AM


You are welcome to take it out for a spin. 

Thanks, today looks like it's probably a downwinder type of day where I'm too chicken to experiment. Looks like this weekend there'll be some conditions for experiments. I've been holding back on Axis purchases hoping the Gong setup will cover me for higher wind but from my short session yesterday I may be too spoiled now by the 1010's glide. I do really want to try the 460 tail though (and even the 370). I love the 390 and it's not like I'm missing any waves downwinding for lack of speed but if I could go faster at will and still slow it down (and turn) when needed, why not.

If these numbers are correct on the Google doc, (the aspect ratios of the tails don't appear to be i.e. the 340 shows higher than the 370), the 390 has the highest volume of ANY of the Axis tails. Volume of course not the only factor but I was surprised to see this.

390 = 242.55 cc
370 = 123.28
460 = 81.39

I do think that that is an error.  All of the stabilizers above the 390 (400, 440, 500) are 90 chord and otherwise larger as well.  It drops to 80 chord at the 390.  They otherwise look proportional so there would be an incremental drop from the 390 to the 370 and then to the 340.  Those two are smaller but because they also have downward angle (incidence) in relation to the fuselage I think they drag more than the 390 which I believe has 0 incidence. 

That 460 tail is wafer thin and looks like it may also be 0 incidence.  It is very cool and I had a lot of fun with that and the 1010 in light Baja winds and mellow waters.  That whole series looks to be designed on glider wings.  Super efficient.  The downside that I felt is that back here  in the Gorge they pickup up every nuance and they threw me around a lot.  I know that you and Bill love them.  I may just have been under the weight threshold. 

The 900 is very quick and much more settled for me.  It carves a turn a lot easier and at my weight it stays gliding incredibly well.  In fact on a swell I still need to be careful to keep it down. 

The 860 is more settled again.  It is quick enough but likely a bit shy of the 900.  It turns super easily and predictably, though.  This is a very neutral, natural and comfortable feeling wing to me.  I had a crazy overpowered 6.0 session yesterday (don't ask) followed by a nicely powered 4.2 session (25ish) on the 860.  It was basically like, "I don't care".  This could easily be a one wing quiver.

The 760 is fire.  It is the fastest wing I have ever used and I feel like it will open doors in terms of maneuverability.  I have no idea about range yet but I plan on checking that today.

The 660 is on its way.  Not sure if that one will be too small for me but based on my experience with the 760, I know that at the very least Chan will love it.  She is using the 22 inch wide Fanatic now (the 4'8, 55 Liter) and I think these lower wingspan wings are better for that.  I notice that on the 760 my stance moved more to the centerline (I had to open my straps).  I think that super offset stances are a reaction to very wide foils.  The narrow wingspans seem to allow more natural surf stances.  I am liking that a lot and I think it will be useful as we continue to move to smaller boards.

Its crazy, but a month ago I thought that a Wing foil looked like larger SUP foils.  Now I am thinking they look like the smallest surf foils or mid size kite foils.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 25, 2020, 10:39:33 PM
At the other end of the spectrum, the 1150 wing was super amazing today. I'd say the wind was 7 to 10mph max, and even with a 6M wing I struggled to get up, but once I was up I could cruise through endless lulls with no worry about coming down. The last reach I did before the wind died completely I pumped all the way across the river with my wing mostly just barely being held up by the wind. We all know my pumping sucks dead toads, but even i can pump this wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on July 26, 2020, 01:02:59 AM
At the other end of the spectrum, the 1150 wing was super amazing today. I'd say the wind was 7 to 10mph max, and even with a 6M wing I struggled to get up, but once I was up I could cruise through endless lulls with no worry about coming down. The last reach I did before the wind died completely I pumped all the way across the river with my wing mostly just barely being held up by the wind. We all know my pumping sucks dead toads, but even i can pump this wing.

That was very cool, Bill.  You were outrunning the wind by a lot.  I was stunned watching you. As soon as you can get your board to break free, you are off like a bolt! 

I was on the 760 and a 6.0.  Freaking amazing.  I would never have imagined that this small a foil would generate enough lift to make that wind work, even with the obviously reduced drag. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on July 26, 2020, 06:59:09 AM
I did a quick little vid of the 1150. Winging in about 8mph gusts and then hitting a 360 on a small wave. Amazing low end performance and super tight turns with this foil.
https://youtu.be/MqRD0UaKvt0
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 26, 2020, 08:53:00 AM
I only have two sessions on the 1150, so I can't comment much, but I learned on the 1010 that you either turn fast or don't turn much at all.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Lazz on July 29, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
Today I learned another tail wing lesson.

My 2100 sq cm Moses has been slippery and fast for me, yet I know two other people who own them, and describe it is a beast.

Turns out it is the TAIL wing causing these radically different opinions.

Just as the Axis 390 tail changed your life. The big Moses with the 483 tail versus the 450 tail, is a night and day different package.

I took side by side photos of them. They look identical in area, but are radically different in how they affect the whole package. SHOCKING. The 483 gives the package the speed of the Axis 900, while the 450 makes it act the Axis 102. Twilight zone shit happening right there. 4-5 mph faster every reach with the 483 tail.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50116153018_220c12caf4_c.jpg)

Hi DW, do you have a idea of the possibility to install a 19mm Axis mast on the Moses Fuselage without too much effort?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on July 30, 2020, 08:55:25 AM
Iím in 4-5 good sessions on the 1150w 440 rear in more less flat water conditions and must say never thought Iíd like a HA wing but really getting to like it for mowing the lawn cruising turns pretty darn good and itís speed is welcome compared to the 1020 and upwindability outstanding.pumping and glide are pretty slick too with the 1150.I still use my ol faithful 1020 in the ocean just a great big guy wing,but really was pleasantly surprised by the 1150 itís a keeper for me for its application.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on July 30, 2020, 07:40:23 PM
And that's how you ride it Paddlur--high and cranked over.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 01, 2020, 02:59:45 AM
I am a week into riding these 60 wings (760, 860) and I am loving these.  At my size I could get away with either one of these as an only wing.  I have had both on super light 6.0 and maxed 3.5. 

On a wing they take about the same work as the 900 to get flying.  The difference there is negligible.  It is likely a little less for the 860 and maybe a little more for the 760.  You really never miss an opportunity, in low wind it is just an extra bit of surface pumping to get it done. 

Once they are up you immediately feel the lack of volume.  There is no plow or stick feeling that you get from the bigger wings.  On that level the 860 is in the category of the 900 (probably a half step back but right there).  The 760 is completely unglued and slips way better than any of the other wings I have tried.  It is really quick.

They pump great.  I have no experience pumping on a SUP or a prone board but I suspect that we are looking for a different thing in pumping with a wing.  We always have the option to get back to power and we are often pumping to add a little to a lightly powered wing or to get up to speed.  These are amazing for that.  They feel like there is enough there to get a firm pump off of and they glide so smoothly.  Amazing for dead spots.  I find myself rigging a smaller air wing because they stay moving so well when they are flying. 

Turning is the standout feature.  You can dig in without worry at faster speeds and make it happen in tighter swell.  Not as much waiting for the perfect spot.  It is pretty error correcting because it will allow you to change the arc of your turn mid steam without fighting you.  I am still relaxing into that.  This goes really well with a longer mast.  You can kind of let yourself fall around the corner which is a great feeling.

I move the 760 forward 1.5 cm in the track.  That gets my stance where I like it.  I like the 860 for trying new stuff.  It is really comfortable.  If it is really good wind or I want to play in swell I take the 760. 

We just got the 660 as well but haven't used it yet.  I think that one will be for Chan.  If she like these as much as I do we will sell the 900 and be a 3 wing family. 

These are excellent winging foils.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 01, 2020, 09:50:55 PM
I find myself oddly hooked on the 1150, to the point that I haven't been using my 1000 much lately. I have both a 900 and an 860 on the way. Once I settle in with the new SIC board (yeah, I bought another board, a 6.0"X28,5" Manta 104 liters) I'll probably sell off a bunch of wings and such.

The new board is pretty good. At my current weight, it's a semi sinker. If the nose goes underwater while I'm trying to get the wing flying I'm mostly doomed. But with a little struggling, which will probably fade as I get more used to it, I can handle even rough swell conditions in the channel. Once I'm up, I'm gold. The surprising thing is that it seems so insensitive to where I put my feet. What's that about? I can ride it with my feet so close together my rear toe is touching my front heel. Not just during transitions--all the way across the river.

It's made me realize that the 5'4" Fanatic is unlikely to actually work for me. I'm still making the training wheels for it, so we'll see, but I think I'm going to have some difficulty getting my back foot on the board when I'm getting up.

The new wings should be here end of next week. I need to cull the herd.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 02, 2020, 01:58:29 AM
The surprising thing is that it seems so insensitive to where I put my feet. What's that about? I can ride it with my feet so close together my rear toe is touching my front heel. Not just during transitions--all the way across the river.

I think that you are feeling the lack of swing weight out in front of you prying at the foil with every nuance in water or wind.  That sure does calm the board down.  The smallest kit that doesn't cause too much pain in starting makes sense to me.  Why carry more?

You are looking great on your new kit.  That was tough wind and you were dancing all over the water.  SWEET!

PS:  You are going to sell foils?  After one use your foils look like chew toys in the tiger enclosure. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 02, 2020, 08:25:15 AM
PS:  You are going to sell foils?  After one use your foils look like chew toys in the tiger enclosure.

You know that horrible pain you feel when you come in and find a scratch on a new foil? With one of my wings, you'd never feel that pain.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 02, 2020, 09:19:12 AM
I find myself oddly hooked on the 1150, to the point that I haven't been using my 1000 much lately. I have both a 900 and an 860 on the way. Once I settle in with the new SIC board (yeah, I bought another board, a 6.0"X28,5" Manta 104 liters) I'll probably sell off a bunch of wings and such.

The new board is pretty good. At my current weight, it's a semi sinker. If the nose goes underwater while I'm trying to get the wing flying I'm mostly doomed. But with a little struggling, which will probably fade as I get more used to it, I can handle even rough swell conditions in the channel. Once I'm up, I'm gold. The surprising thing is that it seems so insensitive to where I put my feet. What's that about? I can ride it with my feet so close together my rear toe is touching my front heel. Not just during transitions--all the way across the river.

It's made me realize that the 5'4" Fanatic is unlikely to actually work for me. I'm still making the training wheels for it, so we'll see, but I think I'm going to have some difficulty getting my back foot on the board when I'm getting up.

The new wings should be here end of next week. I need to cull the herd.
Well Bill I found myself in similar position with the 1150 and on Friday got a hair up my ass to try it out in my local ocean spot with 15to low 20smph 2-3 Occ 4ífoot short interval wind swell well it was a wake up call to me on why I never was a big fan of HA wings supfoiling as it was working overtime trying to keep her under control on inside transition in wave zone as it likes to get a mind of its own sometimes especially with good speed on a wave I  just had to show the 1150 whoís the boss but we battled sometimes but I usually won out but shouldnít be that way so for ocean swell/waves Iím sticking with my 1020 on days like that but I will say that I did enjoy the 1150 in the outside ocean swells coming in after getting upper hand on it as the glide is really something else!I much prefer the 1020 in swell and waves wish access would make a hybrid of the 1020 and 1150 little of both for us larger riders! But donít get me wrong the 1150 still has spot in my game plan in flatter conditions with minimal swell really like it, but in the ocean with swell and waves was a wake up call of my previous impressions of HA wings oh well! I have a 920 wing that for some stupid reason I have not tried winging but have supfoiling on small day and really liked it so itís on deck next on good powered wave day but for some reason little gun shy to give it a go winging as think it will not have the lift of its big brother ol faithful 1020 but Iím going to try er out shortly and see how it goes winging,Iím impressed that your riding 104L for a big guy! Iím riding 5í8Ēx29Ēx5Ē+128L working real well in flat and ocean be curious how that 104L goes for you in the ocean swell waves gonna be a little trickier game then
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 02, 2020, 10:11:24 AM
Paddlur,
You're going to love that 920 if you like the 1020 on the wing. Faster, smoother and more top end speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 02, 2020, 10:44:10 AM
Like to hear that flkiter something to look forward too right on!just was preoccupied with the 1150 as swell has been minimal here lately until last Friday and been having a blast on the 1150 in flattish conditions, but like I said for some stupid reason have not tried the 920 winging yet had it close to 2 months now for some reason with my 225lbs thought it would be supfoiling only for me but now I realize what Iím looking for might be in my frigging hands and donít realize it duh! However still wish for Xmas Axis comes out with a 1150 1020 cross/hybrid wing for us big guys and peeps who want to ride low winds and with good performance in waves guess Iím dreaming again🙏
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 02, 2020, 11:09:57 AM
I just dropped down to the crazy short fuselage with the 370 rear on the 1150 and for winging, it's been a blast. Not as fast as the 1000 but great amount of glide. Tons of low end on these high aspect wings but you have to have the pump technique down. The lower aspect foils give you lift at super low speeds and without needing to pump. Not all foils are going to be right for everyone. Just cause it's a new design, isn't going to be the right design for the rider. The 920 and 1020 are still my go to recommendation for most riders just wanting easy lift and turns with solid predictability in ocean conditions. I'd like to know what you think once you get on that 920.
I should have the Neil Pryde XL next week so I'll get a review of it once I get on the water with it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Chan on August 06, 2020, 06:37:12 AM
2nd day on the Axis 760 foil.

5-40 gusty SW winds, the conditions were awful this morning.  I considered passing altogether, but I wanted to try out the 760 again.  Day one was a smooth 10-20 and it felt great.  I wasnít sure how much of the overall first impression was due to favorable conditions as opposed to the gear change.  My 900 would have been fun as well.  Today was whatever the opposite of smooth is and the new foil really performed.  It pumped easily through the lulls.  I could see a blast approaching and pushed the wing high overhead and luffed.  The foil held steady.   Spilling as much wind as possible, the foil cut completely free when crossing the crest of an upwind swell and then smoothly reconnected to the water on the other side and continued to butter through the river at a steady speed.  I noticed little resistance or unintended acceleration.  Now Iím wondering what the next size down has to offer.  Is the 660 too small or just right for smaller riders?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 06, 2020, 07:28:45 AM
That thing looks ridiculously small as it is, and yes, yesterday was horrible conditions, but fun in an "I can't believe I can do this" way. It's not hard to remember when we were spending half the time in a session on our knees since it was only months ago.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 12, 2020, 07:46:01 AM
Paddlur,
You're going to love that 920 if you like the 1020 on the wing. Faster, smoother and more top end speed.

You called that one Flkiter really like the 920 for my style just need a little bit more wind than the 1020 does obviously but all the characteristics you mentioned to the T and the turning glide in the waves is real nice pleasantly surprised as I got it for supfoiling primarily with my axis setup and didnít really think it would be a winging wing but just a real nice big guy compliment wing to my 1020 in the ocean,surprised donít hear much about the 920?for me itís a excellent dual purpose supfoil and winging wing,and for riders who are not the biggest fans of HA wings in the waves,myself included stoked on the 920!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 12, 2020, 08:57:35 AM
Glad you liked it paddlur, that 920 is great for a one wing quiver. It's my most recommended for those that want a one foil set up for wing/sup, great fun with wind or wave power. I still get on my 920 all the time.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 12, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
Now Iím wondering what the next size down has to offer.  Is the 660 too small or just right for smaller riders?

Did my first ride on the 860 yesterday afternoon. The wind would have worked for my 3.5M F-one, but I took my battered 4.2M since I thought I might need the oomph (technical term) to get that little wing to fly. At the end of the session i was thinking i should have bought the 760. So yeah, I think the 660 is probably fine for you.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 13, 2020, 06:52:21 AM
Here is me a few days ago on the Axis 760 with a 390 tail and the 960 mast and an overpowered 4.2 at Stevenson.  This was a hysterical session.  I wanted to try my new drone but the follow me function doesn't work at all for winging.  So I decided to park the drone in a safe place (hovering over a pylon) and set it to film a fairly empty area of water.  I launched from an unoccupied area and flew the drone into position.  So now I am about 5 minutes into a a pretty short battery window (how long depends on how hard the drone has to fight the wind and it was already gusting to 30).  I get my gear together, get down the stairs, swim out through the weeds, and wing downwind to my spot.  I wing there for a few minutes and the drone takes off.  Ugh Oh!  Emergency Return to Home already?  So I get back as soon as I can, get out of the water, and retrieve the drone from a (thankfully soft) tree.  That would all have been fine if the footage were good, but, I was a microscopic spec in a lovely 4K scene.  What you see here is a frame zoomed to 10X and moved around in the larger scene.  Anyways, once I put the drone away I rerigged to 3.5 and had a great session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuFUmzyxpXc
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on August 13, 2020, 09:12:22 AM
It's a great perspective Admin, looking good there! I think 8-15' off the water is the Ideal viewing spot, especially looking perpendicular to the wind through big waves ;D . We're getting to that point in the year though where you'd have to look North to see anything because of glare.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: styleito on August 13, 2020, 09:36:10 AM
Axis 660/400     ~130lb rider.


The wind started howling the other day after I already had a couple of good sessions. So, I thought i might as well try switching my 920 for the 660. I was really pessimistic about my chances of success but, surprisingly, it popped up on foil pretty easily and off I went. I rode fine until time to gybe. It was my weak side gybe where I switch feet before the carve. As soon as I started to move my feet, it was like trying to stand on a wet bar of soap. Strong side gybes, were I switch feet after the carve were more manageable but, not as easy as with the 920. After a while, I started having better luck with gybes by flying my wing over my head and hanging weight from it while switching. But I still crashed a lot more than I would on the 92.

Overall, It worked fairly well. Those that don't switch stance my not have any issues at all.
Top end speed seemed about the same as the 92. Maybe turned a little tighter. Maybe a little quicker to accelerate. Definitely way less stable.
For me, I"ll keep it as I high wind option. Aside from that I don't think it has any advantage over the 92.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 13, 2020, 09:53:54 AM
I agree style, my 860 experience is similar though we probably have a substantial weight difference. At 215# my comparison would be 860 to 1020. I loved the smooth way the 860 skates around, and if I commit to a turn it works OK, but the 1020 is much easier to complete a turn with. The 860 does a lot of stuttering, even when I'm not particularly high in the air. What I felt might just be some grass on the wing, or perhaps I hit some floating clumps, but it happens fairly often. And of course, I don't get lift at low speed like the 1020/920 offers, so if I lose too much speed in the turn I come down quickly.

I think it's a wing I'm going to need a fair amount of time on to really get. I recently sold both my 1020 and 920, in part to keep myself from using an easier wing. I want to push up the speed I take turns with, I think it's the best way for me to make consistent foiling jibes and tacks. I also think the 860 is surprisingly good for downwind--mostly because it recovers well from overfoiling. I've never saved an overfoil on a 1020, but it happens somewhat automatically with higher aspect wings. Not reliably so yet, I still manage to faceplant a few times per session, but I skittered down the face of a big swell last night with the wing breaching and re-engaging several times. That was pretty cool.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: styleito on August 13, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
I want to push up the speed I take turns with, I think it's the best way for me to make consistent foiling jibes and tacks.

When I want a fast, tight turn, I tend to keep some wind in my wing (like Alan Cadiz pictured below).
Powering rather than gliding thru the carve. Maybe that's why I didn't notice much difference in speed between the 92 and the 66.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 14, 2020, 02:29:28 AM
I haven't tried the 660 yet but with the 760 (and 860 to a lesser degree) it allows your feet to move noticeably more on the centerline (if they aren't already there).  It actually wants your feet there.  It is pretty much my surf stance.
 We have been riding big wings at nearly or over a meter wide and our stances and pressure mindset have adjusted to that.  Some of those big wings have a lot of meat and lift way out there and it takes a lot of leverage to get that turning.  Enter wide offset stances.  As the wings get narrower and the tips are lifting less it takes way less to initiate a turn.  That can be initially surprising but as you relax into it and make a few body adjustments it becomes awesome.  I am sure there is a low limit where beautifully narrow becomes painfully narrow and it takes constant work to tame it.  The 760 is definitely on the good side of that for me.  I am going to try it and the 660 on the standard fuselages (arrived yesterday) and see how that goes. The 860 for me feels awesome on the short fuselage and the 900 is staying on the ultra short. 

In terms of speed the 760, 860 and 900 are all quick wings.  The 760 is silly fun.  I can't max it out.  The 920 and 1020 are almost perfect relaxed, flowy wings.  Super confidence inspiring and mellow in nature.  There is a point, though, when they just start to resist.  It is not a jarring stop but more like a slow back tug.  The big issue with those wings is that they generate so much early and easy lift that they tend to overfoil in our swell and current (and particularly when accelerating on a faster swell).  When it gets wild it takes full concentration to keep those foils wet.  The smaller wings (760, 860) seat in beautifully and never really blow through.  My confidence in carrying speed through really beat up water has increased a lot with these wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 14, 2020, 02:52:06 AM
It's a great perspective Admin, looking good there! I think 8-15' off the water is the Ideal viewing spot, especially looking perpendicular to the wind through big waves ;D . We're getting to that point in the year though where you'd have to look North to see anything because of glare.

I am still hopeful for a firmware update that gets "active track" working for winging.  It just won't recognize us as a subject yet.  It is frustrating because active track works incredibly well for boats, cars, and people (on land).  Maybe the Skydio 2 when those become more widely available.  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils -- a two foil quiver?
Post by: PonoBill on August 21, 2020, 09:28:33 AM
I've been using my 1150 when the wind is too light to get up on the 860, and the 860 for everything else. As much as I like the 1000 and the 900, the 860 is just too delightful to pass up in favor of whatever the 1000/900 excel at. And the 1150 is more fun than the 1010. This is a very strange quiver--the two wings couldn't be much more different. The 1150 looks like the wing off a sailplane, and the 860 looks like a miniature Corsair fighter plane wing. The 1150 is flat, and the 860 is a gullwing with pronounced anhedral. The 860 is less than three feet wide and the 1150 is almost 4 feet. 860 is 1212 square cm projected area, the 1150 is 1713 square cm.

Miles apart, but weirdly complimentary, at least for my size and skill level.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2020, 01:29:18 AM
I think I have pared it down to one setup now.  With the addition of the Standard fuselage, the 760 front with the 390 tail and the 960 mast is covering all conditions from the lightest 5.0 to the strongest 2.8.  I don't really need my 6.0 any more with this kit. 

If you already own the Axis system stuff you really owe it to yourself to try this one.  It is a mind blower.

I did a session on the 660 but didn't find love.  It is hard to think of the 60's (860, 760, 660) as a series because they are fairly different.  The 660 is dihedral overall while the other two are anhedral.  So, while they are all double concave to various degrees (a concave on each side of the center spine) if you were to rest them on a flat surface the 660 will rock on the spine (about 2 cm) from side to side while the other two will rest on the wingtips with the spine elevated by over a cm (the height of that elevation varies from the 760 to the 860).  The 660 is also much lower aspect than the other two.

This makes the 660 really want to be committed to one side or another and you can feel it distinctly fall over the edge.  Even when you are riding flat you need to have an edge in mind.  The wing is already only 26 inches wide (compared to 30 inches and 34 inches with the 760 and 860) but this dihedral really accentuates that narrow feeling.  Some of this may be user specific for me at 6'2, 175 with size 13 feet.  I am interested to see how Chan likes it at 5'3 115 with size 6.  It may be just right for her.  If not, she loves the 760 as well so we will get another of those and sell all  of the other wings.

One other point of interest.  The thickness on all three of these and the 900 at the center spine feels very similar or the same (the jaws on my caliper are not deep enough to measure exactly but it is very close).  I think this is a limitation of the Axis fuselage head which is just under an inch thick.  Because they need that depth and some material below it to screw through, they really cannot go thinner right there.  I am not sure how beneficial (if at all) it would be to go thinner at that central area but it does appear that the hard limit would be at just over an inch thick with this fuselage design.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on August 22, 2020, 07:32:52 AM
I own a 900 and have a demo 760 at the moment. Have you noticed the 760 is easier to pump up at slow speeds. Sometimes when trying to pump the 900 up on slow waves itíll just fall through the water and not grab. You need a bit of forward speed before you can pump it. The 760 is more like an older surf wing where you can aggressively pump it earlier to kick into slow waves.

So far the 760 is a high performance short board to the mid length 900. Iím probably keeping the 760 and may sell the 900.

Can you compare the 760 v 860 anymore?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2020, 08:03:24 AM
I think I'm too heavy for the 760, but I guess I should try it. Most of the wings I thought would never work for me (1000, 900, etc.) I now consider more than adequate. I just need to get them going faster before I take off. I'm going to try the long fuselage and 390 tail if the wind cooperates today. Early indications are that we're gonna have another nuclear day.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 22, 2020, 08:58:39 AM
I own a 900 and have a demo 760 at the moment. Have you noticed the 760 is easier to pump up at slow speeds. Sometimes when trying to pump the 900 up on slow waves itíll just fall through the water and not grab. You need a bit of forward speed before you can pump it. The 760 is more like an older surf wing where you can aggressively pump it earlier to kick into slow waves.

So far the 760 is a high performance short board to the mid length 900. Iím probably keeping the 760 and may sell the 900.

Can you compare the 760 v 860 anymore?

I had the same feeling on the 1000 and 900 before I tried the 390 tail.  They wanted a lot more level speed before board pumping helped at all.   The 390 tail pretty much cured that. 

The 860 is a very fun wing.  it is a notch back from the 900 in quickness but it turns beautifully.  It may take off a little more easily than the 760 but it is not much.  A larger rider may feel differently about that.  With the 390 tail these all take of fine for me.  Because you are on the 760 and enjoying it you won't likely add a lot with the 860.  I would say spend a little time really tweaking the 760.  Fine tuning mast position and getting the right fuselage length made that one even more epic for me. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on August 22, 2020, 09:16:48 AM
Oh yeah I didn't add. For me, the mast placement for the 760 is about 1/4 inch forward of where I place the 900.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on August 22, 2020, 10:51:51 AM
I wing on Axis 1020 (65cm mast, standard fuse and 500 stab). I like riding swell and hope to move into riding real waves. I wing in SF Bay (swell) and Pacific Ocean (swell and waves). This is the only Axis wing I have tried.

I want to get a new wing to obtain 1. more speed for keeping up with swell when riding downwind (drifting) and 2. better pumping again for riding swell, while not giving up either 1. easy lift (I am beginner intermediate and struggle a bit to get on foil in lighter winds on starboard tack) or 2. maneuverability.

I am intrigued by the 1150 but think it will give up too much maneuverability for carving on swell.

I am intrigued by the 1000 but think it will give up too much lift being <1400 cm^2. I wish there was a wing like 1000 but bigger. I am surprised they don't offer this shape with more surface area.

I feel that 920 wouldn't add much of the desired and would give away lift for not much return. I guess I like the idea of higher aspect.

Would be curious of any recommendations.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 22, 2020, 11:54:02 AM
I wing on Axis 1020 (65cm mast, standard fuse and 500 stab). I like riding swell and hope to move into riding real waves. I wing in SF Bay (swell) and Pacific Ocean (swell and waves). This is the only Axis wing I have tried.

I want to get a new wing to obtain 1. more speed for keeping up with swell when riding downwind (drifting) and 2. better pumping again for riding swell, while not giving up either 1. easy lift (I am beginner intermediate and struggle a bit to get on foil in lighter winds on starboard tack) or 2. maneuverability.

I am intrigued by the 1150 but think it will give up too much maneuverability for carving on swell.

I am intrigued by the 1000 but think it will give up too much lift being <1400 cm^2. I wish there was a wing like 1000 but bigger. I am surprised they don't offer this shape with more surface area.

I feel that 920 wouldn't add much of the desired and would give away lift for not much return. I guess I like the idea of higher aspect.

Would be curious of any recommendations.
Not sure of your weight but I would not rule out the 920 for winging in the waves or supfoiling in the waves for that matter either for me me at 225lbs I look forward to using my 920 in the waves when windy itís faster than the 1020 and very good turning,as it will be waay better than the 1150 in the waves hands down!I had a supfoil day couple days ago on the 920 and just really was blowing my mind how well it was working for me supfoiling just a great wing as I usually ride GF wings supfoiling was really stoked on the 920 have the 820 too canít wait to try it out,thatís whatís nice about the Axis lineup just sooo many options on wings it spins your wheels.the 860 is also intriguing I might say too.The 1150 will be great for the bay area in the bay great wing for flatter conditions I really like it in that mode, but once out in the ocean for me the 1150 in decent swell canít hold a candle to the 920,or the 1020 IMO but to each there own own different horses!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2020, 12:21:24 PM
I'm 215# and I find the 1000 to be plenty of wing as long as you can get going fast enough. I haven't used it in surf yet, but I'm reasonably certain it's going to be my surf wing of choice, along with the 860. I could use a 960, but they don't make one yet.

Here's the thing about going fast enough--it's mostly in your head. You can't go as fast as you need to go with a 1000 if you're riding a 1020. Too much drag. So the first time you get on a 1000 you'll think "I'm never going to get off the water with this" because you'll be going faster than you do with a 1020 and still you're stuck on the surface. Yup, you need to go faster, and you can, but you give up because you don't think it's going to happen. Get over that, and it's pretty easy. The first time you try it you'll hate me for giving you bad advice. First time you get up you'll love the wing, at the same time you're a little afraid of it, because you're going so fast.

I have the same mental block with my 900--I get it going really fast and nothing happens. If I shut the little voice in my head off and just keep pumping, off we go. 860 is the same way. Almost every time I use it I flip the board over to check for weed because I'm certain there's something wrong. Nope, it's just in my head and has soon as I flip the board back and know there's no weed I get flying.

All that said, if your main criteria is riding swells and pumping, then 1150 is your huckleberry. I don't pump for shit and i can pump an 1150 across the Columbia River in wind that I couldn't otherwise stay up in. That's about a mile of pumping with a little wind assist. And I really, really suck at it. It's the wing. It's ALL the wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: omg on August 22, 2020, 01:22:24 PM
Guys, please help me out with this one before placing my order;

For winging I am looking at 1010 and either 460 or 400, with short fuselage and 90cm 19mm alu mast. I weigh 80kg (175lbs) with 85 liter board. Mainly looking to ride form 12 knots onwards and small swell, so speed, glide, but also turning are on my list. So:
1) should I go for the 19mm alu mast or is much more draggy, so I would really notice it without riding other masts, so just outright, is it draggy with this 1010 wing?
2) the stab, should I go for the 460 or 400? I read from here that 460 is speedy ie. less drag. How would the 400 differ from 460?

Thanks very much!!! Good winds and waves, and stay safe
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: dylbert_ on August 22, 2020, 05:05:40 PM
omg,
I'm ~72kg on a 75L board.  I ride a 910 and 1010, with a (*slightly chopped) 390 or a shimmed 440 stab, 90cm 19mm alu mast. (I've found the low end of the 910 to be just slightly higher than the 1010)

1) coming from kite foiling, I notice the drag on the 19mm mast, but I really appreciate the stiffness.  I think with the larger span foils I would rather have a stiff mast than a thinner, marginally faster mast.  IMO worth the extra drag.

2) I can't comment on the 460 or 400, but can say that I am not a fan of the 440 for winging with the 1010.  If I shim it up 2 degrees I don't seem to mind it as much.  I love the 390 for winging, and really want to try the 460. seems like it would be quick, with less yaw stability, and maybe better glide/pump???

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 22, 2020, 09:15:20 PM
Actually, any of the Axis stabilizers shimmed to 3 degrees works fine IMHO. I don't know why Adrian is designing them with 5 degrees of incidence angle. Maybe the idea is that beginners will get up early and more experienced folks will shim them.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 23, 2020, 02:52:17 AM
Guys, please help me out with this one before placing my order;

For winging I am looking at 1010 and either 460 or 400, with short fuselage and 90cm 19mm alu mast. I weigh 80kg (175lbs) with 85 liter board. Mainly looking to ride form 12 knots onwards and small swell, so speed, glide, but also turning are on my list. So:
1) should I go for the 19mm alu mast or is much more draggy, so I would really notice it without riding other masts, so just outright, is it draggy with this 1010 wing?
2) the stab, should I go for the 460 or 400? I read from here that 460 is speedy ie. less drag. How would the 400 differ from 460?

Thanks very much!!! Good winds and waves, and stay safe

How heavy are you OMG?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on August 23, 2020, 10:20:16 AM
Can someone post the 3D printer shim files for Axis stabilizers. My understanding is that it is supposed to be free but I can't access to download it on Axis web site.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: omg on August 23, 2020, 12:06:49 PM
Guys, please help me out with this one before placing my order;

For winging I am looking at 1010 and either 460 or 400, with short fuselage and 90cm 19mm alu mast. I weigh 80kg (175lbs) with 85 liter board. Mainly looking to ride form 12 knots onwards and small swell, so speed, glide, but also turning are on my list. So:
1) should I go for the 19mm alu mast or is much more draggy, so I would really notice it without riding other masts, so just outright, is it draggy with this 1010 wing?
2) the stab, should I go for the 460 or 400? I read from here that 460 is speedy ie. less drag. How would the 400 differ from 460?

Thanks very much!!! Good winds and waves, and stay safe

How heavy are you OMG?

Thanks, I'm 80kg / 175lbs. 4'10 85liter board. This setup would be for winging, and I like to ride from 12 knots onwards. I like speed, glide, pumping and turning qualities - of course :) We have some swell, which is smallish, and hence would like to be able to link them via pumping and gliding from the foil.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 23, 2020, 06:07:33 PM
Guys, please help me out with this one before placing my order;

For winging I am looking at 1010 and either 460 or 400, with short fuselage and 90cm 19mm alu mast. I weigh 80kg (175lbs) with 85 liter board. Mainly looking to ride form 12 knots onwards and small swell, so speed, glide, but also turning are on my list. So:
1) should I go for the 19mm alu mast or is much more draggy, so I would really notice it without riding other masts, so just outright, is it draggy with this 1010 wing?
2) the stab, should I go for the 460 or 400? I read from here that 460 is speedy ie. less drag. How would the 400 differ from 460?

Thanks very much!!! Good winds and waves, and stay safe

How heavy are you OMG?

Thanks, I'm 80kg / 175lbs. 4'10 85liter board. This setup would be for winging, and I like to ride from 12 knots onwards. I like speed, glide, pumping and turning qualities - of course :) We have some swell, which is smallish, and hence would like to be able to link them via pumping and gliding from the foil.

It sounds like you are already winging and are up and comfortable on the foil.   The 1010 gets up super easily (I am your weight exactly) and doesn't need a lot of help from a big stabilizer.  I used it mostly with the 460.  If I were going to commit to that series I would use the 460.  I loved it in Baja where we had smooth winds and no current.  Back here in the Gorge I found that it really got bucked around in our spring current at my weight (like hitting turbulence in a plane).  In a smoother environment it might be just the thing.   If I were going to look at that series at our weight it would be the 910 (but I have never ridden that one) and who knows maybe they will do an 810 :) (I would be interested in trying that).  I didn't spend enough time on it to really dial in the turn that the 1010 wants.  I love the Carbon masts so I am not the right person to ask about that.  I will say that the drag reduction is very notable.  After you are done initially progressing through sizes, I would suggest them to everyone every time. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 24, 2020, 02:02:09 AM
I wing on Axis 1020 (65cm mast, standard fuse and 500 stab). I like riding swell and hope to move into riding real waves. I wing in SF Bay (swell) and Pacific Ocean (swell and waves). This is the only Axis wing I have tried.

I want to get a new wing to obtain 1. more speed for keeping up with swell when riding downwind (drifting) and 2. better pumping again for riding swell, while not giving up either 1. easy lift (I am beginner intermediate and struggle a bit to get on foil in lighter winds on starboard tack) or 2. maneuverability.

I am intrigued by the 1150 but think it will give up too much maneuverability for carving on swell.

I am intrigued by the 1000 but think it will give up too much lift being <1400 cm^2. I wish there was a wing like 1000 but bigger. I am surprised they don't offer this shape with more surface area.

I feel that 920 wouldn't add much of the desired and would give away lift for not much return. I guess I like the idea of higher aspect.

Would be curious of any recommendations.

Hi Liv2Surf,


I would second what Paddlur wrote about the 920.  That is a great easy lift wing.  That wing and the 1020 will let you do a very steep no pump takeoff at low speed.  The 920 is really flowy and fun and adds a bit of speed over the 1020.  It is not a massive step but I can't imagine you not enjoying it.  The 1010 lifts off right in there with the 920.  If you are having difficulty at times getting flying on the 1020 I think the 1000 or 900 will be super frustrating to you right now. 


What board are you using?  Have you checked the tail to make sure that there is no rocker at the tracks (or just in front of the tracks in the stance area)?  Too many boards have rocker at the tracks which (to various degrees depending on the mast plate's position in the tracks) sets the foil assembly angled down in relation to the board.  I ask because this can make takeoff very difficult.  For sure check this before you make any stabilizer incidence adjustment.

Did you mention your weight?  That is really the key factor. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 10:51:43 AM
OK, so it looks like I might be blowing up the GONG 7M in the not too distant future (hell, maybe even later today), and I'm seeing a lot of discussion wrt the three different wings I have right now, and wondering everyone's opinion on which one I should bolt on first for my maiden voyage. Quick back story of my feelings wrt the wings used in the surf already w/o a wingding.

So the 900/460 on an ultra short fuse is the setup of choice right now for speed and maneuverability (the 460 and ultra were borrowed but on order the minute I got home...the 390 w/shim is also an absolute stellar backup go to almost equally as fun). Seems that the faster/harder you push it, the better it locks in and turns...makes the 6' board feel like what I'd imagine a prone foiler is feeling. Biggest surprise was that it catches waves better than any of the other GF wings I rode, as it paddles fast and lifts easily, like pushing the "UP" button on an elevator. Have had it in knee waves that I never imagined I'd ever get it off the water on, and had an absolute blast with it.

The 1000/440 on short fuse was fun in that knee high stuff as well, and while it pumped easier heading back out (I only tested it just to see the differences, bad knees and back limit my pumping, and attempts on connecting waves...IOWs, I don't even try any longer), and was only slightly easier getting into waves than the 900...but with what I lost in speed and maneuverability - and the fact that the 900 pops into just about anything anyways - I used it just a couple times, and thought I'd just keep it for winging...for now.

The 920 I've not bolted on yet, since it looks like such a big neanderthal snow plow, much like the Maliko 200 or Armstrong 1850 that I have no desire in trying to push the tractor through the turns when I drive the sports car through them. But thought that maybe as a starter wingding thing it might be useful, and why I bought it, and carry it around in the van with me.

So, forecast for 14 mph winds later this afternoon, and looks like some wingding things will get blown up on the beach. What say you all wrt the first wing combo that I should bolt up to go with the GONG 7M for the first go out? You have to choose from the - 900, 920, 1000 fronts, and 390 (w or w/o shim), 400, 440 stabs - with only a "short" fuse to put them on at the moment.

TIA
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on August 24, 2020, 11:00:10 AM
I learned on the 1020 (already knew how to foil from kiting), have used a friend's 920, and had 5-6 sessions with the 1000.  My emphatic recommendation is to use the 920 for those conditions.  WAY easier to get on a foil, which is the first and most difficult (IMHO) part of the learning curve.  If it's easy and boring, come in and change.  The 1000 requires a higher takeoff speed and more complex foot pressure adjustments than the 920 during takeoff.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 11:18:45 AM
Thanks AGK! I don't anticipate it to be "easy", as I don't have any prior wind sports experience of any kind, so have no idea how I'm going to handle the - what seems on dry land - unmanageable giant wing out there on the water.  Which stab to pair with it, the 440 for added lift (and maybe added stability)?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 24, 2020, 11:52:30 AM
OK, so it looks like I might be blowing up the GONG 7M in the not too distant future (hell, maybe even later today), and I'm seeing a lot of discussion wrt the three different wings I have right now, and wondering everyone's opinion on which one I should bolt on first for my maiden voyage. Quick back story of my feelings wrt the wings used in the surf already w/o a wingding.

So the 900/460 on an ultra short fuse is the setup of choice right now for speed and maneuverability (the 460 and ultra were borrowed but on order the minute I got home...the 390 w/shim is also an absolute stellar backup go to almost equally as fun). Seems that the faster/harder you push it, the better it locks in and turns...makes the 6' board feel like what I'd imagine a prone foiler is feeling. Biggest surprise was that it catches waves better than any of the other GF wings I rode, as it paddles fast and lifts easily, like pushing the "UP" button on an elevator. Have had it in knee waves that I never imagined I'd ever get it off the water on, and had an absolute blast with it.

The 1000/440 on short fuse was fun in that knee high stuff as well, and while it pumped easier heading back out (I only tested it just to see the differences, bad knees and back limit my pumping, and attempts on connecting waves...IOWs, I don't even try any longer), and was only slightly easier getting into waves than the 900...but with what I lost in speed and maneuverability - and the fact that the 900 pops into just about anything anyways - I used it just a couple times, and thought I'd just keep it for winging...for now.

The 920 I've not bolted on yet, since it looks like such a big neanderthal snow plow, much like the Maliko 200 or Armstrong 1850 that I have no desire in trying to push the tractor through the turns when I drive the sports car through them. But thought that maybe as a starter wingding thing it might be useful, and why I bought it, and carry it around in the van with me.

So, forecast for 14 mph winds later this afternoon, and looks like some wingding things will get blown up on the beach. What say you all wrt the first wing combo that I should bolt up to go with the GONG 7M for the first go out? You have to choose from the - 900, 920, 1000 fronts, and 390 (w or w/o shim), 400, 440 stabs - with only a "short" fuse to put them on at the moment.

TIA
With your weight Sano Iíd go with the 920 for maiden voyage with the 7m wing think you will have more success with the LA 920 than the HA 1000 especially in the ocean you have to try the 920 supfoiling I did that last S swell and was pretty impressed with it as I usually ride GF M200 and Iwa supfoiling and the 920 is very close to the M200 but bit faster and little less drag bit more stealthy than the M200 really like it supfoiling and winging just very surfy flowy I just need bit more wind for my 920 maybe today when this tropical remnant hurricane weather blows out of here they say,however if your at a flat water spot maybe go with the 1000 as your used to it but think for learning you be better served with the 920 at 185# especially in the ocean and still a bit of S swell lingering today here in VC,you got to try the 920 when you get a chance supfoiling really great wing IMO but Iím 225 though underrated Axis wing for the waves sup and winging
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 24, 2020, 12:01:49 PM
OK, so it looks like I might be blowing up the GONG 7M in the not too distant future (hell, maybe even later today), and I'm seeing a lot of discussion wrt the three different wings I have right now, and wondering everyone's opinion on which one I should bolt on first for my maiden voyage. Quick back story of my feelings wrt the wings used in the surf already w/o a wingding.

So the 900/460 on an ultra short fuse is the setup of choice right now for speed and maneuverability (the 460 and ultra were borrowed but on order the minute I got home...the 390 w/shim is also an absolute stellar backup go to almost equally as fun). Seems that the faster/harder you push it, the better it locks in and turns...makes the 6' board feel like what I'd imagine a prone foiler is feeling. Biggest surprise was that it catches waves better than any of the other GF wings I rode, as it paddles fast and lifts easily, like pushing the "UP" button on an elevator. Have had it in knee waves that I never imagined I'd ever get it off the water on, and had an absolute blast with it.

The 1000/440 on short fuse was fun in that knee high stuff as well, and while it pumped easier heading back out (I only tested it just to see the differences, bad knees and back limit my pumping, and attempts on connecting waves...IOWs, I don't even try any longer), and was only slightly easier getting into waves than the 900...but with what I lost in speed and maneuverability - and the fact that the 900 pops into just about anything anyways - I used it just a couple times, and thought I'd just keep it for winging...for now.

The 920 I've not bolted on yet, since it looks like such a big neanderthal snow plow, much like the Maliko 200 or Armstrong 1850 that I have no desire in trying to push the tractor through the turns when I drive the sports car through them. But thought that maybe as a starter wingding thing it might be useful, and why I bought it, and carry it around in the van with me.

So, forecast for 14 mph winds later this afternoon, and looks like some wingding things will get blown up on the beach. What say you all wrt the first wing combo that I should bolt up to go with the GONG 7M for the first go out? You have to choose from the - 900, 920, 1000 fronts, and 390 (w or w/o shim), 400, 440 stabs - with only a "short" fuse to put them on at the moment.

TIA
With your weight Sano Iíd go with the 920 for maiden voyage with the 7m wing think you will have more success with the LA 920 than the HA 1000 especially in the ocean you have to try the 920 supfoiling I did that last S swell and was pretty impressed with it as I usually ride GF M200 and Iwa supfoiling and the 920 is very close to the M200 but bit faster and little less drag bit more stealthy than the M200 really like it supfoiling and winging just very surfy flowy I just need bit more wind for my 920 maybe today when this tropical remnant hurricane weather blows out of here they say,however if your at a flat water spot maybe go with the 1000 as your used to it but think for learning you be better served with the 920 at 185# especially in the ocean and still a bit of S swell lingering today here in VC,you got to try the 920 when you get a chance supfoiling really great wing IMO but Iím 225 though underrated Axis wing for the waves sup and winging,l take your down in OC co. You really have to consider a 1020 for winging to have in your wing quiver for learning winging you will progress much faster in the lighter winds there,and you can easily re sell if you outgrow it,I still have a blast with the 1020 especially in the ocean.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on August 24, 2020, 12:20:31 PM
So, forecast for 14 mph winds later this afternoon, a

TIA

As someone who only tried on his prone sinker board. I say wait for more wind. 14 MPH is 12 knots? That's the lower end of what people who know what they're doing ride in. Wait for a 20 knot day to make sure you'll get up.

Also if you got hit in the chest by the stab just walking out with a paddle in your hand, make sure you plan your entry and exit very carefully dragging a huge wing and trying to keep a foil away from it. :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on August 24, 2020, 12:23:55 PM
Thanks AGK! I don't anticipate it to be "easy", as I don't have any prior wind sports experience of any kind, so have no idea how I'm going to handle the - what seems on dry land - unmanageable giant wing out there on the water.  Which stab to pair with it, the 440 for added lift (and maybe added stability)?

Hey Sano ---  I would guess the 440 would be very slightly easier.  But I went from a 500 to a 400 on the 1020 without noticing a hell of a lot of difference in takeoff difficulty (and a definite improvement in turning and speed). My opinion (Axis experts please correct me) is that the stab choice among those three is way less important than the front wing choice -- but for a maiden voyage I'd still go with the 440.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on August 24, 2020, 12:38:05 PM
I'm a newbie with the wing(170lbs).  Did a couple sessions with the 920, then took the 1000 out (390 stab for both).  Really liked the 1000 when there was plenty of wind.  Though the last couple of sessions the wind was lighter with plenty of holes in it.  Kind of struggled.  Yesterday I put the 920 back on, because the wind looked pretty light again, and had my best session yet.  It's definitely slower than the 1000, but that just makes everything easier.  Get's up easier, and the transitions felt easier as well.  Had some of my best jibes to date!  Starting out, use the 920.  Once you have things figured out, then move to the 1000 and 900.  I'll be staying on the 920 for a while, it just made everything feel much easier.

I like the 390 stab, but haven't winged with the other stabs yet.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 01:31:29 PM
With your weight Sano Iíd go with the 920 for maiden voyage with the 7m wing think you will have more success with the LA 920 than the HA 1000 especially in the ocean you have to try the 920 supfoiling I did that last S swell and was pretty impressed with it as I usually ride GF M200 and Iwa supfoiling and the 920 is very close to the M200 but bit faster and little less drag bit more stealthy than the M200 really like it supfoiling and winging just very surfy flowy I just need bit more wind for my 920 maybe today when this tropical remnant hurricane weather blows out of here they say,however if your at a flat water spot maybe go with the 1000 as your used to it but think for learning you be better served with the 920 at 185# especially in the ocean and still a bit of S swell lingering today here in VC,you got to try the 920 when you get a chance supfoiling really great wing IMO but Iím 225 though underrated Axis wing for the waves sup and winging
Thanks paddlur, that's two votes for the 920, and what it sounds so far as the wing of choice in my case. Also, thanks for the heads up wrt the 920 in the surf, I guess I'm really just going to have to try it. I wasn't ever much of a fan of the M200, and since the two appear so very similar, I just didn't think there'd be that much difference in the two. Besides, the way the 900 caught waves better than the M200 anyway IMO and turned SO much better, I never pulled the 920 outta the bag for the surf as a result.

But hey, why the hell not give it a go? Certainly ain't gonna cost me anything, and who knows, there might just be something there that might just fool the hell outta me. Wouldn't the first time I out thought myself into missing out on something that turned out to be a blast....something along the lines of the "Fun to ride, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you on one" punch line kinda thing.  :o ;D

Thanks again for the advice, will certainly put it to good use.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 01:40:42 PM
So, forecast for 14 mph winds later this afternoon, a

TIA
As someone who only tried on his prone sinker board. I say wait for more wind. 14 MPH is 12 knots? That's the lower end of what people who know what they're doing ride in. Wait for a 20 knot day to make sure you'll get up.
Actually, I'm not thinking that's a bad thing honestly. Since I've never done anything wind related ('cept fly a little paper kite when I was a kid), not actually adding flying in with the feel of just learning to maneuver up, down, and sideways while still on the water with the dang thing might not be that bad of a dealio in the beginning. Guess we'll just have to see though I suppose.  :)

Quote
Also if you got hit in the chest by the stab just walking out with a paddle in your hand, make sure you plan your entry and exit very carefully dragging a huge wing and trying to keep a foil away from it. :)
Ha! Yeah, just talked to StandinDan about doing the DP Harbor instead of Sano for the first few attempts. Seems as though the wind would be more channeled (don't know if that's good or bad), but definitely not going to have any of the waves to contend with, and try to drag some unyielding kite thing in one hand, and a big ol hunk of hard fiberglass w/ a machete attached to the bottom of it in the other.  :o :'(
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 01:52:24 PM
Thanks AGK! I don't anticipate it to be "easy", as I don't have any prior wind sports experience of any kind, so have no idea how I'm going to handle the - what seems on dry land - unmanageable giant wing out there on the water.  Which stab to pair with it, the 440 for added lift (and maybe added stability)?

Hey Sano ---  I would guess the 440 would be very slightly easier.  But I went from a 500 to a 400 on the 1020 without noticing a hell of a lot of difference in takeoff difficulty (and a definite improvement in turning and speed). My opinion (Axis experts please correct me) is that the stab choice among those three is way less important than the front wing choice -- but for a maiden voyage I'd still go with the 440.
Well then that's what it is then. Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 24, 2020, 01:56:11 PM
I'm a newbie with the wing(170lbs).  Did a couple sessions with the 920, then took the 1000 out (390 stab for both).  Really liked the 1000 when there was plenty of wind.  Though the last couple of sessions the wind was lighter with plenty of holes in it.  Kind of struggled.  Yesterday I put the 920 back on, because the wind looked pretty light again, and had my best session yet.  It's definitely slower than the 1000, but that just makes everything easier.  Get's up easier, and the transitions felt easier as well.  Had some of my best jibes to date!  Starting out, use the 920.  Once you have things figured out, then move to the 1000 and 900.  I'll be staying on the 920 for a while, it just made everything feel much easier.

I like the 390 stab, but haven't winged with the other stabs yet.
Awesome, the bold is what I like to hear! Thank you bigmtn, we typically have "pretty light wind" in comparison to what others on here write, so the 920 sounds to be the one I'm going to be starting with for sure then. ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 24, 2020, 09:56:59 PM
With your weight Sano Iíd go with the 920 for maiden voyage with the 7m wing think you will have more success with the LA 920 than the HA 1000 especially in the ocean you have to try the 920 supfoiling I did that last S swell and was pretty impressed with it as I usually ride GF M200 and Iwa supfoiling and the 920 is very close to the M200 but bit faster and little less drag bit more stealthy than the M200 really like it supfoiling and winging just very surfy flowy I just need bit more wind for my 920 maybe today when this tropical remnant hurricane weather blows out of here they say,however if your at a flat water spot maybe go with the 1000 as your used to it but think for learning you be better served with the 920 at 185# especially in the ocean and still a bit of S swell lingering today here in VC,you got to try the 920 when you get a chance supfoiling really great wing IMO but Iím 225 though underrated Axis wing for the waves sup and winging
Thanks paddlur, that's two votes for the 920, and what it sounds so far as the wing of choice in my case. Also, thanks for the heads up wrt the 920 in the surf, I guess I'm really just going to have to try it. I wasn't ever much of a fan of the M200, and since the two appear so very similar, I just didn't think there'd be that much difference in the two. Besides, the way the 900 caught waves better than the M200 anyway IMO and turned SO much better, I never pulled the 920 outta the bag for the surf as a result.

But hey, why the hell not give it a go? Certainly ain't gonna cost me anything, and who knows, there might just be something there that might just fool the hell outta me. Wouldn't the first time I out thought myself into missing out on something that turned out to be a blast....something along the lines of the "Fun to ride, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you on one" punch line kinda thing.  :o ;D

Thanks again for the advice, will certainly put it to good use.
Sano I got the 920 primarily for winging in the ocean on windier days to complement my 1020 when itís on the higher end; but unbeknownst to me I was holding a great supfoil wing in my hands and did not even realize it until one day had a try and it exceeded my expectations mind you Iím 225 so I can literally wing it around but where it really shines is winging in good wind.I agree the GF M200 is not the best wing but for heavy riders in small waves suping itís definitely a fun wing,my go to supfoil wing is the GF Iwa in good swell old school but damn really like that wing went through the GF GL series but not my style sold them prefer old school Iwa,I know Iím the minority on that one,so my disclaimer you can see Iím not a HA wing fan,although I do have the Axis 1150 and really like it flat water conditions a lot, but I primarily ride in the ocean.I have a new Axis 820 similar to the Iwa looking for forward to having a try supfoiling with it soon as we get some swell so back to winging for a lighter wind area in OC you might consider the 1020 might be better tool for the job for learning as you will be up foiling having more fun n lighter winds as it might be a bit more frustrating on the 920 when not enough wind,might be a good idea to take few short trips up to Belmont bit more wind and real good learning spot make your curve more enjoyable as trying to learn winging in light winds is gonna make it more frustrating than need be.Not saying the 920s everyoneís cats meow but with the tools you have the 920 best option but a 1020 for your area would be best bet to get the addiction going faster then when you get it wired and outgrow you can always sell it.My 2 cents Sano👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on August 26, 2020, 09:16:23 AM
I have been thinking about picking up an Axis 910 front wing to compliment my beloved 1010 but so far have been unable to justify the experiment in my mind without trying one first. At 90Kg or so I wonder if I shouldn't be looking in the other direction (1150 or even the theoretical 1300), 'cuz I just wants 'ta glide ;D

Has this been posted already?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSPPIBy6zzI

This guy seems to have come to the conclusion it's preferable to the 1150 for his application and he's about my weight. Interestingly though he says the 1150 pumps faster through the water than the 910. The 1150 glides further as one would expect but not by much.
Anyway it's a nicely done comparison. Anyone else here that can offer a 'feet on' review of the 910 (please mention your weight)?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2020, 09:34:00 AM
Have you tried the 1150? For me at my current weight (214) it's a remarkable light air wing and fantastic for downwind. You're welcome to borrow mine for a downwind on any higher wind day. If it's light, I'm on it. I know you've seen my pathetic pumping. Imagine that weak suck effort propelling me across the river when the wind gives out. Comparing the 1150 to the 1010 I come to the conclusion that I could get rid of my 1010 and just use the 1150 whenever it's applicable. I've used it in very gusty conditions where there was plenty of wind--probably well above 25mph--and huge lulls. It handles the high wind conditions pushing it beyond what I would think of as it's maximum speed. In that case I think having the stabilizer shimmed to reduce front foot pressure was probably a key to the performance.

Yes, it doesn't turn tightly, though I can do kind of a stall, twist, and swoop turn with it that is almost too tight, but that's not a high success rate turn.

At my weight, the 1150, 1000, and 860 is probably my all around quiver for wingfoil, downwind, and foil surfing. We'll see. I don't see any room in there for a 910, though that's the same thing I thought about the 860.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on August 26, 2020, 09:58:12 AM
I also really like the 1150.  Great for light wind, but I've also used it lots with a 4 meter and some with a 3 meter wing (up to mid-20s with gusts to low 30s) -- works fine if you just size the wingding down.  That said, I am looking at a smaller wing (a 910 or an 860) but the 1150 works well for me.  It took me a while to learn to turn it and jibe it (it was definitely different than the 1020 and 1000 that I've now sold) but I now feel like to goes where I want it to without a lot of thought, and it pumps so well that I am actually making my light wind jibes on foil.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2020, 08:42:44 PM
I had an awesome session today, split between the 1150 and the 860. I did a long upwind/downwind run with the 1150 using my 5M F-One. When I left the event center and headed to swell city the %M was a little overpowered, but settled nicely once i got in the harness. i had a few sketchy moment on the way upwind, but all good. Got to just above the Hatchery and the wind picked up so much I was having a hard time making ground upwind--too much wing. So I turned and headed back. I was on my tiptoes all the way back, wing fully feathered or flagging all the way, and still a bit much.

I got back to the event center and considered my options. Blow up a 4.2 or 3.5 and maybe the 1000 wing, of stay overpowered on the 5.0 and swap to the 860. I opted for overpowered with the 860 and had a total blast. It felt like I was dancing with the swells. So nutty, so fun. The little fucker turns on a dime and gives you nine cents change, and overpowered is just enough. Damn, that's a cool wing, and I was thrilled. My enjoyment must have been obvious, I got a lot of comments and thumbs up when I finally made my way back to the beach.

Oddly, I didn't make any of my jibes completely on the foil. I think at my weight it just doesn't have quite enough glide, or I don't have enough skill, to stay up at the end of the jibe, but I was powering through 75 percent of the turn, then touching down and popping back up. I'm still switch footing on all my jibes, I need to stop having so much fun and make myself learn to jibe and sail toeside and heelside. But hell, that was just so great i wasn't really worried.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on August 27, 2020, 09:33:26 AM
I had an awesome session today, split between the 1150 and the 860..... I need to stop having so much fun and make myself learn to jibe and sail toeside and heelside. But hell, that was just so great i wasn't really worried.

Pain is the only thing that nudges me out of my fun/comfort zone. I spent a fair bit of the waveless portions of downwinders this week forcing myself to ride goofy foot, such a relief to the right side of my lower body.

Yesterday was certainly the best filled in wind of the week. Monday and Tuesday had just patches and streaks up in the Viento-Mitchell stretch though pretty great from Swell on down. Did a double Drano-White Salmon run on Tuesday, the swim to get under the bridge at Drano is no fun but the current helps a bit. I just put the wing leash on my ankle, turn my harness hook around to my back and prone paddle out. The takeout sucks even more than the put in come to think of it ::)

Of course I'd love to try that 1150 one day Bill, thanks! I feel like I have a pretty good wing  for the higher speed crazy stuff in my Gong L Pro setup, may end up leaving things as is for now with Axis. Still want to try downwind foil suping again and have a slightly larger board ordered but it won't see the Gorge until spring. Feel like I may need at least an 1150 to get me flying without tearing my shoulders up.

Crap... it's already gusting to 24 at 9am, this week is gonna kill me ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 28, 2020, 05:57:09 AM
this week is gonna kill me ;D

Me too.  Man am I beat!  The 760 has been saving me from the 12 to 35 blasty days.  I am getting tugged all over the place on the surface and this thing stays collected underwater.  It doesn't seem to care if I am screwing up and going 6 mph or if I am maxed out in a blast.  I would be getting destroyed on a big wing.

It makes me wonder where we are heading foil wise in this wingfoiling (that is what I am calling it today) evolution.  A friend here that is a little heavier than me is riding the F-one 62 cm 800 cm squared on windy days and 66 cm 1000 cm squared on light days.  Those are very thin "kiting" wings.  He isn't pumping like crazy to get them moving either. 

I want to catch a ride on that 66 for sure.  The Axis 660 surprised me in how easily it took off in normal winds.  It didn't feel like it was approaching any kind of low limit for my weight.  It has a very specialized design that I didn't love for winging but that didn't feel like a size issue. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on August 30, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
this week is gonna kill me ;D

Me too.  Man am I beat!  The 760 has been saving me from the 12 to 35 blasty days.  I am getting tugged all over the place on the surface and this thing stays collected underwater.  It doesn't seem to care if I am screwing up and going 6 mph or if I am maxed out in a blast.  I would be getting destroyed on a big wing.

It makes me wonder where we are heading foil wise in this wingfoiling (that is what I am calling it today) evolution.  A friend here that is a little heavier than me is riding the F-one 62 cm 800 cm squared on windy days and 66 cm 1000 cm squared on light days.  Those are very thin "kiting" wings.  He isn't pumping like crazy to get them moving either. 

I want to catch a ride on that 66 for sure.  The Axis 660 surprised me in how easily it took off in normal winds.  It didn't feel like it was approaching any kind of low limit for my weight.  It has a very specialized design that I didn't love for winging but that didn't feel like a size issue.
Did you mean, you would be getting destroyed on a big (foil rather than a wing?)  Also, while I've been enjoying the 1010 Axis on the straights, I'm still having issues with my jibe.  Should I put my 920 foil back on?  I have a 400 tail.  Thanks Admin.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 30, 2020, 05:21:52 PM
Today was so weird. Other than getting cold, I switched from the 860 to the 1000 and had this very strange sense of pumping off the surface mostly with the foil. I don't fknow if i've been training myself with the 860, or what's going on, but I was pumping the wing lightly (5.0M) and pumping the foil hard, and the foil came up more or less independent of what I was doing with the wing. Very strange feeling. I would have explored it in greater detail but I froze my ass off and had to come in. Summer's over. I think the shorty 2/3 is going to get a chance to dry completely and out comes the 3/4 full suit with fucking hood and everything.

I came home and cooked up a storm--Filet mignon on the barbie, dry sauteed string beans in a soy/red wine reduction, Mushrooms with Dukkah and late harvest riesling, Caprese salad with heirloom tomatoes, capped by strawberry shortcake with Hood River nectarine drizzle. My baking powder biscuits for shortcake have gone from good to "holy shit those are fucking amazing"!

A couple of glasses of spectacular Analemma Mencia and I'm ready for a nap. I'm almost warmed up. If you're in the northwest and you don't know about Analemma wines, shame on you, and you're in for a treat. It's like Hood River Peaches--they don't get very far from Hood River because we eat them all (or in this case, drink it all). There are two places on the planet that i know of where you can get Mencia--Glacia in Spain near the Portugese border, and Mosier, Oregon.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on August 30, 2020, 10:13:30 PM
Today was so weird. Other than getting cold, I switched from the 860 to the 1000 and had this very strange sense of pumping off the surface mostly with the foil. I don't fknow if i've been training myself with the 860, or what's going on, but I was pumping the wing lightly (5.0M) and pumping the foil hard, and the foil came up more or less independent of what I was doing with the wing. Very strange feeling. I would have explored it in greater detail but I froze my ass off and had to come in. Summer's over. I think the shorty 2/3 is going to get a chance to dry completely and out comes the 3/4 full suit with fucking hood and everything.

I came home and cooked up a storm--Filet mignon on the barbie, dry sauteed string beans in a soy/red wine reduction, Mushrooms with Dukkah and late harvest riesling, Caprese salad with heirloom tomatoes, capped by strawberry shortcake with Hood River nectarine drizzle. My baking powder biscuits for shortcake have gone from good to "holy shit those are fucking amazing"!

A couple of glasses of spectacular Analemma Mencia and I'm ready for a nap. I'm almost warmed up. If you're in the northwest and you don't know about Analemma wines, shame on you, and you're in for a treat. It's like Hood River Peaches--they don't get very far from Hood River because we eat them all (or in this case, drink it all). There are two places on the planet that i know of where you can get Mencia--Glacia in Spain near the Portugese border, and Mosier, Oregon.
But the water is warmer here.  Get back Jo Jo.  I miss you
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on August 31, 2020, 12:43:14 AM
Did you mean, you would be getting destroyed on a big (foil rather than a wing?)  Also, while I've been enjoying the 1010 Axis on the straights, I'm still having issues with my jibe.  Should I put my 920 foil back on?  I have a 400 tail.  Thanks Admin.

Sorry, that does get confusing.  Yes, I meant that I would have been getting bucked around on a bigger hydrofoil.

I would put the 920 on to help with jibes.  It is so smooth and stable and it turns exactly as expected.  The 1010 has its own turn and it really only wants to be turned one way (for me).  The 920/400 will accept a lot.  That is a great kit to work out the final steps of jibing on.  It also banks a turn basically like the other Axis wings (aside from the 1010 and that series) which I view as its own deal.

I saw your jibe on FB.  You are right on the brink.  There is no way that doesn't happen for you this month. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: SUPladomi on August 31, 2020, 07:21:45 AM
Sorry, that does get confusing.  Yes, I meant that I would have been getting bucked around on a bigger hydrofoil.

I've been confused by this before. I would propose that we stop using "wing" for the foil and just call it the "foil".
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 31, 2020, 07:39:18 AM

But the water is warmer here.  Get back Jo Jo.  I miss you

Not until Hawaii gets their COVID shit together. Diane is being super careful, Type 1 diabetics don't do well with COVID and Maui's medical facilities...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on September 01, 2020, 11:07:02 AM
Did you mean, you would be getting destroyed on a big (foil rather than a wing?)  Also, while I've been enjoying the 1010 Axis on the straights, I'm still having issues with my jibe.  Should I put my 920 foil back on?  I have a 400 tail.  Thanks Admin.

Sorry, that does get confusing.  Yes, I meant that I would have been getting bucked around on a bigger hydrofoil.

I would put the 920 on to help with jibes.  It is so smooth and stable and it turns exactly as expected.  The 1010 has its own turn and it really only wants to be turned one way (for me).  The 920/400 will accept a lot.  That is a great kit to work out the final steps of jibing on.  It also banks a turn basically like the other Axis wings (aside from the 1010 and that series) which I view as its own deal.

I saw your jibe on FB.  You are right on the brink.  There is no way that doesn't happen for you this month.
Thanks Admin.  Your positivity is refreshing.  And thanks for this forum.  it's a wealth of info.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on September 01, 2020, 10:05:57 PM
More from the Foiling NY guy. Not too surprising conclusion in this one though in the comments he mentions testing carving of the 1150/460 combo in the next video. The side by side comparisons make the differences so obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgfmvJLGy0
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on September 01, 2020, 10:57:54 PM
Tried the 900 and the 760 foils with the wing today. Really liked both! (Short fuse, 390 stab, 170lbs) Took the 900 out first and it just felt stable and smooth. Wind was blowing pretty good, and there was a lil swell to play with. Was having a blast! Then went in and switched to the 760, definitely had to pump a bit more to get up on foil, but once I was up it felt great. Admin I see why you like it! Was carving around all over the place. I can't wait for the next windy day with some real swell to play around on! Have you tried any other tail combos? Might throw the 460 on next time. Speed it up a bit.

Yesterday was also real windy, so I grabbed my 50 something liter 5'10 prone board to see if I could get up on it. Knee starting was definitely hard, but when the wind cooperated I was able to get up fairly easily. I had the 1010 foil on, and frankly just felt a little out of control with that foil, a smaller volume board, and the real gusty wind. Was planning on trying again today with a 30L prone board and a front strap, but I was having too much fun with the 760 foil to go in and torture myself on a little board. Haha next time!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 02, 2020, 12:27:39 AM
Hi Big,

No, I only have the 390 stabilizers right now.  I have tried the 390 shimmed up and down a degree (and both were worse for me than the stock angle).  I'll be stoked to know how your other tails work on it.  I have also tried it on the Standard, Short and Ultra Short fuselages.  This is a much more subtle difference but I think the Standard is my favorite.  On the shorter ones, I am riding my back foot more and on the standard it is easy balance.  Chan took the 760 yesterday (she loves it as well) and I grabbed the 860 on the Ultra Short Fuselage.  That is also a super fun wing.  It was jamming 3.5 though with really good swell and angle. 

After my session I did my second waterstart (attempt) drift of the season.  This was on a 24 liter/3'10 board.  We have a super easy drift that is a couple hundred yards long with a pre-shame walk so you end up at home.  Easy enough to get on the board squatting in the straps, and get the wing in hand and flying.  Sheeting in to bring the nose downwind was dipping the nose too deep and dropping me every time.  I have a 26 liter board with more nose that I am going to try next.  Getting on the board this way and flying the wing is so nice in comparison to my kneestart process.  It would be a dream to work this out. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on September 03, 2020, 08:13:37 PM
Hey can we get all the larger riders here to petition Adrian to make a 960 for us big guys that would be my wing,buy one tomorrow🙏Hope Axis is listening, no in all seriousness a big brother to the 860 would be sweet👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 04, 2020, 03:09:49 AM
More from the Foiling NY guy. Not too surprising conclusion in this one though in the comments he mentions testing carving of the 1150/460 combo in the next video. The side by side comparisons make the differences so obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUgfmvJLGy0

I wonder how much of that is the Fuselage change.  He ended up liking the Standard fuselage the most even with these big wings. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on September 04, 2020, 10:57:32 AM

I wonder how much of that is the Fuselage change.  He ended up liking the Standard fuselage the most even with these big wings.

Yes, I'm thinking the standard fuse is making a big difference there, certainly affects cadence though doesn't make sense that it could increase actual length of glide. Just more leverage per pump. He seemed to have come to the conclusion the 910/370 combo was the new favorite and that seemed to be because of the turning radius. Would have to think the 1150/460 standard fuse setup would not be nearly as agile though for his purposes worth the tradeoff. Maybe mine too although I'm thinking 1010/460 short fuse as my compromise compared to the 1010/390 U-short I'm used to. The U-short takes 10 minutes every session to get used to, maybe there's no advantage for my general use.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on September 04, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
Actually, any of the Axis stabilizers shimmed to 3 degrees works fine IMHO. I don't know why Adrian is designing them with 5 degrees of incidence angle. Maybe the idea is that beginners will get up early and more experienced folks will shim them.

This just clicked in my head today. I have an Axis setup. 900/760 front wings. Only have the 370 stabilizer. I have 1 shim in there under the front screw. https://axisfoils.com/collections/foil-parts-accessories/products/axis-foils-3d-printing-files-1-degree-rear-wing That one specifically.

Are you saying I should have 2 or 3 shims stacked on top of each other in there?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 04, 2020, 08:43:07 PM
Try two and see what you think. You'll probably find you need to move your front foot back a bunch. If you're using a front strap you might not be able to reach it. My front foot is about an inch behind the furthest back screw hole for my front strap.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on September 04, 2020, 10:29:18 PM
Sweet! I'm on a prone 4'8" no straps. I have a total of 3 shims. So 2 are going in for next session. 3 will be experimented with too. I'm trying to figure out how to make the 760 project forward on the pump like the 900 does. If I can crack that code I'll be in love with it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 06, 2020, 04:21:29 AM
I'm trying to figure out how to make the 760 project forward on the pump like the 900 does. If I can crack that code I'll be in love with it.

Did you try the standard fuselage?  I was pushing through the (390 in my case) stabilizer on the 760 with the Ultra Short, OK on the Short, but normal powerful feeling pumps on the Standard.  The 760 is loose enough that the extra fuselage length is unnoticeable.  Shimming the stabilizer hadn't helped pumping but the extra fuselage length straightened it right out.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 07, 2020, 06:26:38 PM
Here is what the 1150 can do in garbage surf. This is flkiter

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE210haDGhA/?igshid=fw763447tmu7
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on September 08, 2020, 02:44:45 PM
Did you try the standard fuselage?  I was pushing through the (390 in my case) stabilizer on the 760 with the Ultra Short, OK on the Short, but normal powerful feeling pumps on the Standard.  The 760 is loose enough that the extra fuselage length is unnoticeable.  Shimming the stabilizer hadn't helped pumping but the extra fuselage length straightened it right out.

Nope I just have the ultra short fuselage.

Paddled out with the 760 and 2 shims in under the front screw 370 stabilizer. Rode 3 waves. Went in and took one shim out. No lift and drag with 2 shims in. 1 shim works pretty well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 08, 2020, 04:55:57 PM
  It takes a while to get used to a lower angle stabilizer. It won't come up as easily, but once you're up, you're good. You'll also have to find where your feet need to be. In my experience, reducing the stabilizer angle radically changes foot position. I took my shim out two days ago because I was struggling to get my 860 up with a 4.2 wing in variable wind. I got it up easier but hated the result--much higher foot pressure and I had to move both feet forward. Even with the foot change the wing was constantly hunting. Made a beeline for the beach and put my shim back in.

And no, I didn't take the time to work out the new foot position. I wanted to foil. It was a silly experiment to begin with.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on September 08, 2020, 06:09:30 PM
Yeah I would've had to move the foil forward in the tracks. I'll look at the surfline rewind and see if I notice anything different. 1 Shim and the 760 worked good today though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 09, 2020, 01:13:55 AM
Paddled out with the 760 and 2 shims in under the front screw 370 stabilizer. Rode 3 waves. Went in and took one shim out. No lift and drag with 2 shims in. 1 shim works pretty well.

The Standard may be just the thing.  It doesn't give the 760 a restricted feeling but it does allow you to push hard on your back foot.  I love that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 09, 2020, 06:30:03 AM
Yeah I would've had to move the foil forward in the tracks. I'll look at the surfline rewind and see if I notice anything different. 1 Shim and the 760 worked good today though.

Yes, I run my foils pushed all the way forward.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on September 12, 2020, 09:09:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLO0_R4oqs&t=221s
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on September 13, 2020, 09:06:15 AM
Was wondering if a few of you Axis riders have tried the 90cm mast yet as tried mine out yesterday and really liked it in the ocean with decent short interval wind swell thought it was a improvement over the usual 75cm in the swells much less chance of breaching less touches of top of swells on bottom of board and a real nice Cadillac kinda cruisey feeling.Being a longtime kite foiler canít believe I never tried yet kind of kicking myself in the ass as itís just been sitting in the garage really enjoyed its performance seems like itís the way to go in choppy short interval stuff with no shallow worries,would imagine be the go to for you gorge riders.optimally for me would be a 32-33Ē mast be perfect for me wish Axis would make one donít understand why they donít should be a option for one,and while Iím at my Axis wishlist a new 960 wing for us larger riders would be sweet too! Curious of any you Axis riders try it out as if your riding in choppy stuff really is a step up in performance IMO was real positive first try session for me winging personally
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2020, 09:22:30 AM
Admin and Chan were on 90+ masts early on, and still are (96 carbon). I thought they were nuts, and like you, I had a 90 in my shop for months and never tried it. I finally did and started kicking myself. It's not just the overfoiling prevention(actually, I still manage to do that but just fall farther) it's the skate-y feeling. Especially with an 860, but really with any wing--I can dance on the damned thing.

There is no hint that something like this is feasible. When I went from a 24 to a 29" GoFoil mast the only benefit was fewer breaches, at least it was until I got used to being higher, and the breaching recommenced. I had a 60" Axis mast, which I used fairly often. Jumping to 75--no change other than less breaching. Jump to 90 and holy shit!

I didn't understand why, and I still don't, but I've switched back to 75 a few times and it's like someone cranked the fun control way down. Weird, but OK. Now we know.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on September 13, 2020, 11:02:07 AM
Yup, been loving the 90 for winging. I've got an 82cm mast that I got from Dwight. Pretty sure he bent a 90, and cut it down to get it straight again. I'll be using it for prone foiling bigger waves this winter. Was using it for winging for a bit, then decided to go to the 90 and love the extra couple inches.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on September 13, 2020, 12:22:14 PM
Nope, I bought a 90 specifically to cut to 82. 90 is too long for the banana river.

I’m riding 85 now and getting trapped occasionally in stingray flats dragging sea grass and walking out. Not a fun place to be walking.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2020, 04:48:07 PM
After seeing a guy with a stingray barb completely through his foot I'd be bringing a rake with me if I were in a place where a stingray had ever been seen. .
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on September 13, 2020, 06:56:47 PM
tried the 1150 today with the 90 mast, gave the 1150 for me a whole new for the better performance in the ocean itís becoming a much better friend to me with that mast in short interval windswell than with shorter 75,if you have decent windswell and no issue with depths itís the way to go winging shoulda known by my kitefoiling experience but was kinda going on my supfoil experience  instincts on my usual 29Ē mast length thinking it was the golden rule similarily to winging,Nope not if your local conditions have choppy and sp windswell much better IMO the 90,like I said before if Axis made one for me a 32-33Ē would be the dope optimum! but get me wrong still really like the 75 too in smoother conditions.I rode the 920 yesterday with the 90 and still so stoked on how well it was working,weíre just scratching the surface in this new wind sport so nice to find new better ways to configure all our gear to make things work better for our personal preferences albeit with more frigging $ spent
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on September 13, 2020, 09:47:26 PM
Fortunately, aluminum masts are cheap. Unfortunately, the carbon ones aren't. Admin and Chan swear by the carbon 96. I've had one on order for a month or so. Hope see it in October.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 14, 2020, 03:28:42 AM
Yes, the 96 cm masts have been excellent.  We had the 76 cm carbon masts and haven't used them since we switched up.  The longer masts add another level of freedom that was very unexpected to me.  I expected to blow through less but it is what they do when turning that is really liberating.  We have some 106's on order and I am interested how those go.  It would be different if we were in surf or shallow water but for Gorge/Baja use?  No contest.

It does seem like an underthought match to have foil lengths longer than mast lengths.  Breaching wingtips is never an issue on foils of any design with a wingspan at 86 or lower with a 96 mast. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on September 14, 2020, 11:12:49 AM
Are any here familiar with whether Axis has plans to introduce a lighter fuselage (e.g. carbon)? Anyone think they shouldn't?

Also, I believe I heard here that have announced introduction of carbon mast(s) with length intermediary between 76 and 96?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on September 14, 2020, 12:06:18 PM
Are any here familiar with whether Axis has plans to introduce a lighter fuselage (e.g. carbon)? Anyone think they shouldn't?

Also, I believe I heard here that have announced introduction of carbon mast(s) with length intermediary between 76 and 96?

I would be happy to see a carbon fuselage. As of June both 106 and 86 cm masts were expected this month. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on September 14, 2020, 07:09:27 PM
Are any here familiar with whether Axis has plans to introduce a lighter fuselage (e.g. carbon)? Anyone think they shouldn't?

Also, I believe I heard here that have announced introduction of carbon mast(s) with length intermediary between 76 and 96?

I would be happy to see a carbon fuselage. As of June both 106 and 86 cm masts were expected this month.
Admin donít see it on the site,a 106 and 86 in carbon?just see 76 and 96? Man they sure ainít cheap $800 for a mast yikes,but if a 86 becomes available I probably gonna bite thanks to my recent love affair with the 19mm X 90cm,howís the stiffness of that CF mast Admin anywhere close to the 19mm aluminum,as thatís one thing I really like about the 19mm alum mast they are just pretty much the stiffest mast Iíve ever tried and I have tried many for my 225lbs tonnage one of the outstanding qualities of the Axis foils
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 03, 2020, 07:38:24 PM
Stoked just got my 82cm 19mm alum mast surprisingly as thought they were way out on the horizon as pretty sure thatís gonna be the dakine set up for me for sup and winging canít wait to have a go. my75cm mast here might be getting a rest shortly, thanks to the steamroller for the Picts Clint one of the most talented foilers,kiters all around waterman I know who some how gets these shots while kiting with a frigging longboard and kiting at the same time multi tasking making it look easy NOT so easy!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 04, 2020, 02:57:34 AM
Admin donít see it on the site,a 106 and 86 in carbon? Just see 76 and 96? Man they sure ainít cheap $800 for a mast yikes,but if a 86 becomes available I probably gonna bite thanks to my recent love affair with the 19mm X 90cm,howís the stiffness of that CF mast Admin anywhere close to the 19mm aluminum,as thatís one thing I really like about the 19mm alum mast they are just pretty much the stiffest mast Iíve ever tried and I have tried many for my 225lbs tonnage one of the outstanding qualities of the Axis foils

Paddlur, I haven't heard anything on the upcoming masts, just the original email that they were coming.  I don't feel any flex while riding but I wing only and I am about 178 right now.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 04, 2020, 05:18:13 PM
Admin donít see it on the site,a 106 and 86 in carbon? Just see 76 and 96? Man they sure ainít cheap $800 for a mast yikes,but if a 86 becomes available I probably gonna bite thanks to my recent love affair with the 19mm X 90cm,howís the stiffness of that CF mast Admin anywhere close to the 19mm aluminum,as thatís one thing I really like about the 19mm alum mast they are just pretty much the stiffest mast Iíve ever tried and I have tried many for my 225lbs tonnage one of the outstanding qualities of the Axis foils

Paddlur, I haven't heard anything on the upcoming masts, just the original email that they were coming.  I don't feel any flex while riding but I wing only and I am about 178 right now.
Looking forward to trying the 82cm alum mast should be just fine for a big guy canít beat the rigidity of the axis alum mast,but that being said like to try the CF 82 too for sure but guess there a ways out.On another note today had a great supfoil session on the 820 it kicks ass love it was  1st day of hurricane Marie swell was smoking and that 820 just exceeded my expectations excellent supfoil wing for decent size surf really like my 920 on smaller days,but canít say enough about the 820 it gives my usual GF supfoil wings a run for the money then some extremely stoked on it can you tell👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on October 04, 2020, 07:11:25 PM
Are any here familiar with whether Axis has plans to introduce a lighter fuselage (e.g. carbon)? Anyone think they shouldn't?

Also, I believe I heard here that have announced introduction of carbon mast(s) with length intermediary between 76 and 96?

I would be happy to see a carbon fuselage. As of June both 106 and 86 cm masts were expected this month.

I have been told by Axis that there is no carbon fuselage planned  :'(
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 05, 2020, 01:49:56 AM
Looking forward to trying the 82cm alum mast should be just fine for a big guy canít beat the rigidity of the axis alum mast,but that being said like to try the CF 82 too for sure but guess there a ways out.On another note today had a great supfoil session on the 820 it kicks ass love it was  1st day of hurricane Marie swell was smoking and that 820 just exceeded my expectations excellent supfoil wing for decent size surf really like my 920 on smaller days,but canít say enough about the 820 it gives my usual GF supfoil wings a run for the money then some extremely stoked on it can you tell👍

I can't imagine riding here with a shorter mast now.  Yesterday we had 25-35 conditions and really good swell.  I was maxed on a 3.5 and that 96 cm mast lets you set your height and play.  Longer masts are the norm here now.  I am seeing a lot of the kids on masts over 100.  It just makes sense here.  Of course we have no reef or shorebreak so that makes the decision a lot easier.  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 07, 2020, 06:02:07 AM
I think Admin is onto something, switching to the carbon mast.

After 2 months on a carbon mast (different brand), then riding aluminum yesterday, I was shocked by the dead and heavy feel.

I doubt I could tell the difference taking a single carbon test ride, after being on aluminum full time. But the reverse, 2 months on carbon, then aluminum....OMG

Just FYI, if you have the cash, get the Axis carbon mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 07, 2020, 09:06:37 AM
I doubt I could tell the difference taking a single carbon test ride, after being on aluminum full time. But the reverse, 2 months on carbon, then aluminum....OMG
Oh you can feel it almost right away in the surf if you're trying to really push it in the turns, and so I'm just the opposite of you wrt loving my aluminum over the CF masts I've had (or demoed).

All three of the different branded CF masts I've surfed have all had too much torsional flex that now (didn't realize it until after finally getting on aluminum) I find to be much less responsive (a fraction of a second off for the wing to follow the board in the start of the turn) than the instantaneous input feel I get with the Axis aluminum mast, and then when that torsional flex "releases(?)" I can feel that as kind of a quick bobble before returning to normal/straight again...neither of which I like at all.

Maybe on smaller prone or wing boards, or when only doing longer carving turns with a wingding it's not felt, but on a bigger (6'x28") SUP...it's definitely noticeable almost right away. Oh, and there's only a 10oz difference from my old Go Foil 29.5" Tuttle mast/fuse and adapter base plate compared to my current 75cm Axis aluminum mast/fuse and base plate...that to me is far more less noticeable (like not at all) than the huge amount of difference in the - in my case unwanted - flex between the CF and aluminum masts.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 07, 2020, 10:56:17 AM
From my personal experience. Started on Naish, went to Lift, now on AXIS.

When I first got on lift at a beachbreak with a lot of current the mast flex was VERY noticeable and annoying. Then I got used to the flex. Learned how to load it up in a bottom turn. Specifically backside. Very good projection after loading it up.

First thing I noticed getting on AXIS (I'm on the 16mm mast) was I couldn't load it up the same way and backside bottom turns were a bit different. It does seem to respond faster though, you don't have to wait for a load and release. Paddling in current is a bit nicer.

I can get used to either. I miss the simplicity of carbon masts with all the pieces attached.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 07, 2020, 11:06:17 AM
Sano, have you tried the Axis carbon masts?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 07, 2020, 11:20:05 AM
Yeah, some guy here at the Zone sold me his 760, 900/390 setup at a nice price so I could give it a try. ;) :D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 07, 2020, 11:24:30 AM
Yeah, some guy here at the Zone sold me his 760, 900/390 setup at a nice price so I could give it a try. ;) :D

I wondered where that stuff went :). 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 07, 2020, 12:02:25 PM
Lol... ;D

So in order of torsional "flexiness", I found/felt that the Go Foil later versions had the least, followed by the Armstrong and Axis that were similar...with the Axis just slightly more flexy than the Armstrong (from what I remember in my limited time on the Armstrong).

Armstrong advertises this flexiness as being something good....
Quote
The unique quad c beam core layup delivers a mast with smooth consistent reactive flex, generating sweet handling response and better stability by smoothing out bumps and flexing precisely to drive you through turns.
...but I sure as heck didn't like the feel of it, and I think that's why I really like the Axis (aluminum) from the very first time I rode it. Because it just felt so much more solid, responsive, and predicable compared to the flexiness of the GF stuff I'd come off of.

Now granted, I never really felt or understood the flexiness of the GF stuff until I jumped on the Axis as the first aluminum mast I'd tried (with the exception of the Slingshot that I initially had starting out, but never did get flying properly with it before getting the GF stuff about 6 weeks later), so I never tried to (or knew I needed to) load and unload the mast to get it through a turn like Hdip did (or does).

This IMO is why going from what I feel is a "very responsive" aluminum mast back to a CF one, I immediately noticed that torsional flex as a slight delay in the wing turning with the board immediately (as it "loaded up" apparently), and then the unloading of it I could also feel as I guess it "released" and transitioned into the board under me that felt like a little bobble underfoot. :(
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 08, 2020, 03:06:40 AM
Sano, we are good examples of how much preference is involved in this stuff.  I am sure that familiarity with what we have been using plays a role as well.

I have hit that point where I am super happy with my underwater kit now.  Chan and I have only two front wings (760, 860) and two tails (both 390's).  We keep those mounted and always use the 960 masts.  I love both setups and I don't care which I use so we often switch off.  Those two wings are very similar in size. 

I love gear and I am always stoked to see new stuff come along but I can use the 860 kit for every wind situation.  That makes it too easy and too pleasant.  The 860 isn't quite as quick as the 760 but it is a perfect speed for my size to allow slowing down without stall to match our swell speed and when it accelerates it has enough headroom not to overfoil, even on big drops.  It is really easy to place at the right depth. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 08, 2020, 07:33:34 AM
Sano, we are good examples of how much preference is involved in this stuff.  I am sure that familiarity with what we have been using plays a role as well.
Oh most definitely, just mentioned the same to a buddy of mine just last week on how different riding styles (or even goals maybe) changes somebody's gear preference. Not to mention how you, and I are doing two different foil sports for that matter (surf foiling vs wing foiling), so it makes sense that we'd have different foil preferences in the gear we use.

Quote
I have hit that point where I am super happy with my underwater kit now.  Chan and I have only two front wings (760, 860) and two tails (both 390's).  We keep those mounted and always use the 960 masts.  I love both setups and I don't care which I use so we often switch off.  Those two wings are very similar in size. 

I love gear and I am always stoked to see new stuff come along but I can use the 860 kit for every wind situation.  That makes it too easy and too pleasant.  The 860 isn't quite as quick as the 760 but it is a perfect speed for my size to allow slowing down without stall to match our swell speed and when it accelerates it has enough headroom not to overfoil, even on big drops.  It is really easy to place at the right depth.
This makes sense. Due to the fact that your foil energy is found more above the water in the wind, whereas my foil energy is all below the water in the strength and size of the swell. So I'm typically getting out of the water...when it gets windy enough for you to start heading into it. :)

So it's understandable that you have a quiver of "wings" for the wind conditions above the water to harness its energy, where as I have a quiver of wings for below the water to account for the changing conditions below it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Aaron SUP on October 14, 2020, 01:11:15 AM
Mast Length.................

I have been using the 68cm mast for SUP surfing, for the past 10 month and really like it.

I'm getting a longer mast for WIND Foiling (and maybe WING Foiling in the future)

Do I go the 90 cm x 19 mm or 82 cm x 19 mm mast ?

I can WIND foil on my 68 cm mast, but when the ocean gets a bit choppy and small swells, the 68 cm seems to start to breach (820 Surf Wing), and it gets a little tricky trying to read the surface of the ocean, to stop the foil from breaching.

Thanks
Aaron

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: DavidJohn on October 14, 2020, 01:18:52 AM
Iíd recommend going with the 82cm mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 14, 2020, 01:41:23 AM
Aaron,

The 96 will be sweet!  I had an amazing day this week that was really bad wind.  Super gusty and southerly.  The swell on one reach was jagged, in your face and large, on the other reach that same swell was super fun.  It would have been a royal pain to have to dip fully into each swell and then match the peak 100 times on each outbound reach.  A little mast length smooths that out a lot, and lets you carry way more speed.  It also makes banking turns way more fun.  The wind foilers here all run longer masts after they learn.  The racer guys are all on well upwards of 100 and many of the freerider/swellrider guys as well. 

Have you tried any of the other wings?  I don't wind foil but the 820 wouldn't be my first choice for that.  I know a couple of guys here who use the 900 and love it.  That wing is way lower drag and doesn't overfoil like the 820 at speed.  With a sail, you have a ton of power and a flatter take off so, it should be great.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 14, 2020, 03:19:17 AM
Windsurfing you need to go long. You canít follow the ocean surface as easy as when winging. Your judgement on ride height is more challenging windsurfing than winging.

90 is STANDARD now with the Slingshot windsurf basic kit, so that tells you something right there. It used to be 70 standard.

Windsurfing foiling is just different than other forms of foiling. Iíve done all forms of foiling.

For those that donít windsurf....a windsurfer is hiked out (body weight to windward) with weight supported 50/50 between the sail and board, unlike a winger, supporting his weight 100 percent on the board. To ease off power when encountering a swell trough and follow the surface to avoid a foil blowout, we just sheet out the wing. A windsurfer cannot do this as easily. His weight is supported by the sail, and factored into the trim of the whole kit and foil. If he sheets out the sail, itís an instant wheelie from the foil and blow out. Everything has to be done carefully. Nothing like winging.....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on October 14, 2020, 03:20:41 AM
I am like many here that enjoy trying different equipment for different conditions and riding goals but have decided to stick to one mast length range (81-85, Armstrong and Lift) for everything.  My main interests are downwind gliding and pumping and for that  foil depth makes a critical difference.  With one mast length, I can dial in the height I ride at to always keep my foil close to the surface and avoid having to relearn where my foil is every time I change mast lengths.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Aaron SUP on October 14, 2020, 05:22:09 AM
Have you tried any of the other wings?  I don't wind foil but the 820 wouldn't be my first choice for that.  I know a couple of guys here who use the 900 and love it.  That wing is way lower drag and doesn't overfoil like the 820 at speed.  With a sail, you have a ton of power and a flatter take off so, it should be great.

I spend most of my time SUP surf foiling.    I have the 820 and 920 wings. 

I don't WIND foil often, so just trying to use what wings I already have.    I suppose I'm just trying to buy the minimum equipment at this stage.   Good thing with Axis is being so interchangeable.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 14, 2020, 06:31:24 AM
Understood.  If you ge a chance to try the 860 it could almost certainly replace your 820 and it would be great for winging (and likely windfoiling as well).  It also drags a lot less than the 820 and does not have any overfoiling issues. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on October 14, 2020, 08:03:32 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap. The marketing BS from Armstrong is just an excuse to offer a chinese made mast with some kind of cheap core and low grade carbon. Sure you can ride them just fine and there is some performance gain when getting away from a 19mm aluminum mast. If these carbon masts were truly great these companies would be touting their construction, which they are not.

"A no compromise foil featuring the unique M40J high modulus carbon prepreg mast and wings to guarantee unreached performance"- A statement like this is what you want to hear. And you don't hear this from Axis or Armstrong.

You're better off with an Axis Aluminum mast than their carbon one. I tried an Axis carbon mast and wasn't impressed. My Delta freeride kitefoil has a custom 13mm UHM mast that is truly stiff and light years ahead in performance from the 15mm Aluminum counterpart.

My Mike's Lab kiteracing 110cm foil is the the stiffest most stable foil I have rode. I think it's under 13mm. It has a carbon mast you can be proud of. And you pay top dollar for this performance no doubt.

I'm winging on an Axis 19mm mast for now and hope to find something better in the future but nothing currently exists.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 14, 2020, 09:08:43 AM
Have you tried any of the other wings?  I don't wind foil but the 820 wouldn't be my first choice for that.  I know a couple of guys here who use the 900 and love it.  That wing is way lower drag and doesn't overfoil like the 820 at speed.  With a sail, you have a ton of power and a flatter take off so, it should be great.
I spend most of my time SUP surf foiling.    I have the 820 and 920 wings.
I only SUP foil surf, and my 90% go to wing set up is the 900/390. I have the 1000 and 750 fronts, but even in the smallest of stuff I find that the 900 still catches as many if not more waves than the 1000, and only use the 750 for when it's overhead and the 900 is just a little too "lifty" when it get up there like that. The only time the 1000 comes out of the van is to pair it up with the 460 stab just to play around and see how far I can pump back out and connect waves (which sadly, isn't too often :().

I had the 920 that I picked up with the intention of using it for wing foiling, but never got into winging...and after trying it just twice in the surf, sold it, because it's so much slower and far less maneuverable than the 900 (and not any more stable).

I think you'd really enjoy the 900 in the surf, and if Admin recommends it for the WIND or WING foiling don't think you can go wrong with that wing.

Just a note, I have tried the 860 in the surf also, and it's OK - better than the 920 - but still slower and less responsive in the turns than the 900. I can also say that the 910 is also really fun wing in the surf, and I've heard that its true HA profile makes it a good wing foil wing, so it might also be a consideration for you wrt the wind foil aspect of you quiver. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 14, 2020, 11:42:21 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 14, 2020, 02:38:53 PM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?

Project Cedrus is the company I was trying to think of in a previous discussion about masts. His design is almost identical to what I was considering building molds for. My idea was different in detail--I planned to do very long molds and cut the masts to the length required. I planned to use a two-piece aluminum or steel mold perhaps 400CM (13 feet) long. The mold can be quite simple. The U-shaped parts would be cut to length and glued face to face, potentially with an internal X brace, but probably not. Leading and trailing edges would be cast urethane non-structural pieces that snap on to the tang. I went so far as to price the metal molds and make a small model. Then I realized I'd actually have to do work to make this happen and came to my senses. Finding Project Cedrus already existed and had a patent on the design was a pleasant shock.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on October 15, 2020, 04:33:18 PM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 15, 2020, 05:03:01 PM

These masts are noticeably draggy

I saw that on his page. He's open about it which is nice. They're the same width as the 19mm Axis aluminum mast which makes me wonder if I'd even notice the difference. (I'm on the 16mm AXIS)

That flat water pumping video that showed the 19mm pumps faster over flat water than the 16mm mast kind of broke my brain and I don't know how to process it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on October 16, 2020, 12:52:46 AM

These masts are noticeably draggy

I saw that on his page. He's open about it which is nice. They're the same width as the 19mm Axis aluminum mast which makes me wonder if I'd even notice the difference. (I'm on the 16mm AXIS)

That flat water pumping video that showed the 19mm pumps faster over flat water than the 16mm mast kind of broke my brain and I don't know how to process it.
I am not familiar with the referenced video or how reproducible their result are but my guess is the difference is related to stiffness.  I don't know if they compared glide.  You are probably looking at getting increased stiffness for more drag.  Can't have everything, I guess. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 16, 2020, 03:02:36 AM
The overall drag difference is super noticeable between the Axis carbon masts and the 19 aluminum masts with a wing.  You take off earlier and in less wind and you get better high end as well.  The take off improvement may be partly due to the much cleaner base at the track.  It sounds like some people are more sensitive to flex than we are but I don't pick up any difference there.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 16, 2020, 03:47:35 AM

I am not familiar with the referenced video...

Here it is. He has a number of other interesting comparison vids as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLbul8IqEZA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR18t5nprztnl5nchl3Gh5R4K3G3ys9iX3e6MWXwFIovFRUKzummTAVtt3E
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: BayAreaKite on October 16, 2020, 06:06:58 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy

Not to be rude but is that statement coming from personal experience? Sorry I have to chime in on threads like these because my marketing budget is $0. I'd like to make a few comments regarding stiffness.

First, 90% of my sales this summer have been to wingfoilers who all greatly appreciate the stiffness. They are able to go with longer masts, ride wider boards, and use bigger wings thanks to the stiffness of Project Cedrus.

Secondly, not one of those customers has complained of "noticeably more drag." You can ask any of my Axis customers, which is not surprising because as you point out the mast is a very similar profile. But even my Lift customers (quite a few of them) say they notice no decrease in speeds either despite the mast being thicker than the Lift mast. Again, it is quite a bit stiffer (and actually lighter) so maybe their brains are fixating on the positives vs. the potential negatives I don't know. But the reality is, the mast is ONE component of total foil drag. Most comes from the wings, a large component comes from the mast/fuselage interface, a large component comes from the water piercing section of the mast, and the rest from the laminar (hopefully) flow around the main portion of the mast. The bigger and slower the wings get, the less likely you are to notice drag from the mast. Some of my test riders a couple years (!!) ago riding small Moses wings on kites noticed more drag vs. the Moses mast. Maybe it's time to update the website to more relevant feedback. I am an [honest] engineer, not a sales/marketing guy.

Thirdly, beam stiffness varies with the cubic of thickness. So a 19mm thick mast can be 50% stiffer than a 16mm mast. This is why Axis has two different thicknesses for their carbon masts, because the thinner carbon is not nearly as stiff as the thicker aluminum. Drag increases linearly with thickness. The point is, with a small tradeoff in drag you can have massive stiffness improvements. This is how Project Cedrus is able to achieve strength, stiffness, and low weight... all for a few mm of thickness. I made this decision 3 years ago, and a lot of FEA, CFD, and thought/analysis went into it. Quite a bit ahead of the industry, and am glad I did. Because wing foilers now are demanding stiff masts for their wider boards, bigger wings, ability to pump, and bigger loads.

Thank you for your discussion and interest, Kyle
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 16, 2020, 08:31:57 AM
The overall drag difference is super noticeable between the Axis carbon masts and the 19 aluminum masts with a wing.  You take off earlier and in less wind and you get better high end as well.  The take off improvement may be partly due to the much cleaner base at the track.  It sounds like some people are more sensitive to flex than we are but I don't pick up any difference there.
This is interesting, because I didn't notice any drag difference between the two, but honestly didn't pay that much attention to it or look for it of the immediate flex difference I felt, and was more tuned in and focus wrt that than I was comparing much else in the few sessions I rode it.

But I also have to wonder if the differences in power sources that we're both using doesn't have something to do with it also. You're getting added/aided lift off the water from the wing being pulled upward not just forward, while all of my lift is generated by how fast I can get the foil up to speed with only the forward thrust of the paddle (and the varying energy of the waves), with no added lifting forces outside of that. Dunno.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 16, 2020, 08:59:37 AM
Thank you for your discussion and interest, Kyle
Hey Kyle, thanks for joining in the conversation because I've been really trying to justify the investment of hundreds of $$$ for a few ounces of weight. So just how much lighter exactly is your 75cm mast compared to the same length Axis 19mm aluminum mast, and is there some "stiffness" comparison number of the two (is your mast as stiff, not as stiff, or stiffer than the Axis is what I'm asking)?

I ask this because when I got my Axis setup, I weighed the baseplate, mast, and "short" fuse, along side the same all-in-one same carbon components of my Go Foil setup since I couldn't weigh the GF mast separately...and found there to be only a 10 oz difference between the two.

Now at least for me, 10 oz in the big scheme of things is nothing, compared to the huge stiffness advantage I felt in the aluminum vs the carbon...when my board/leash/strap weighs 17lbs, and I weigh in at between 185 and 190 on any given day. Same thing when I had the Axis CF mast (that I never did get around to weighing to see the difference between the two dang it), that whatever I might have been saving in weight, I was definitely losing in stiffness that I could feel and didn't like right away.

So I'm looking to go a little longer with an 82cm mast, and trying to see if the "price per oz" justifies spending $1100 for your CF mast, compared to the $117 it would cost me for the Axis aluminum...and if the stiffness comparison is the same, slightly better, or slightly worse.

Thanks,
Dave 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 16, 2020, 09:10:26 AM
I also have to wonder if the differences in power sources that were both using doesn't have something to do with it also.

My guess is that it does. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on October 16, 2020, 09:46:30 AM
I have used both 76 and 60 cm 19mm aluminum Axis masts with both 1020 and 1150 wings, as well as a first-gen Cedrus ~67 cm mast with the same wings.  I notice no difference in speed or acceleration (although neither of these is a really fast wing).  The Cedrus seems just as stiff as the alum masts (and much stiffer than a new Cloud 9 76 cm carbon mast I have) and is a LOT lighter.  I pretty much always use the Cedrus, both because of weight and also it is quicker to attach and remove the fuse.  I'm a happy customer.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on October 16, 2020, 10:33:07 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap. The marketing BS from Armstrong is just an excuse to offer a chinese made mast with some kind of cheap core and low grade carbon. Sure you can ride them just fine and there is some performance gain when getting away from a 19mm aluminum mast. If these carbon masts were truly great these companies would be touting their construction, which they are not.

"A no compromise foil featuring the unique M40J high modulus carbon prepreg mast and wings to guarantee unreached performance"- A statement like this is what you want to hear. And you don't hear this from Axis or Armstrong.

You're better off with an Axis Aluminum mast than their carbon one. I tried an Axis carbon mast and wasn't impressed. My Delta freeride kitefoil has a custom 13mm UHM mast that is truly stiff and light years ahead in performance from the 15mm Aluminum counterpart.

My Mike's Lab kiteracing 110cm foil is the the stiffest most stable foil I have rode. I think it's under 13mm. It has a carbon mast you can be proud of. And you pay top dollar for this performance no doubt.

I'm winging on an Axis 19mm mast for now and hope to find something better in the future but nothing currently exists.

Thank you!  This is very helpful and resonates.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: BayAreaKite on October 16, 2020, 03:49:25 PM
Thanks for the questions, a couple things:

For sure the loads on the mast will be different if you are under a kite, powered by a wing, or on a SUP. I actually think the highest loads are under SUP, because they are the widest boards, and therefore the biggest moment. The kite results in the lowest forces, because it actually adds lift to the rider (therefore reducing his weight) and also boards are generally smaller. So good points brought up.

Thank you AGK for the feedback on Cedrus.

Dave, one thing that is clearly misunderstood is that a carbon mast should be lighter and stiffer than an aluminum mast. If it's not lighter and stiffer, than it's a crappy design. I didn't say it, cnski did. But he's right. Carbon is 2-3x stiffer than aluminum (120GPa vs. 68GPa) and 40% of the density (1.8g/cc vs. 2.6). There's a reason high performance cars, airplanes, and bikes are all carbon. For some reason the foil industry hasn't really figured out how to make a light, stiff, strong carbon foil. I believe it has partly to do with the fact that they make everything in Asia and spend their money on marketing and not engineering. I am not faulting them for this, it's just the reality of the sporting goods industry. I would not buy any of the carbon masts on the market because as you point out, there is no benefit over the aluminum! Unless you are racing, in which case the thinner masts reduce drag. But this is a small population, which is why I developed Project Cedrus.

I can't compete with aluminum on price. I bet you that $117 Axis mast cost $20 to extrude out of aluminum material and another few $$ to anodize. Project Cedrus is handmade in WA and OR by very skilled technicians who earn an honest wage and work for companies that have high environmental standards. The only way I can even sell it for the price I do is to reduce the distribution chain (no importers, distributors, or retail shops taking a cut). Sadly this impacts volume, but again I can't afford the markups or the mast would cost $4k. If volume were higher, I could certainly bring the cost down. Another story. So when you buy Cedrus you're not just buying a lighter weight mast. You're buying a stiffer mast, a mast that should last a lifetime (I think AGK purchased his in 2018 and has ridden it with Stringy, Cloud IX, and Axis). So it's an investment that can pay off quickly if you like to change your wings around. Is it worth it? I don't know, that's a personal question. I have customers who buy 3 (each a different length no questions asked) and I have guys who tell me it's overpriced and laugh at me. If you spend a lot of time on the water, hate being forced into a new wing attachment ecosystem every season, want something unique, appreciate American made products, then I think it's a steal. If you are happy with your aluminum mast, then stick with it and enjoy the ride! Spend money on things that make you happy:)

Thanks again, Kyle
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 16, 2020, 06:10:35 PM
So when you buy Cedrus you're not just buying a lighter weight mast. You're buying a stiffer mast, a mast that should last a lifetime (I think AGK purchased his in 2018 and has ridden it with Stringy, Cloud IX, and Axis). So it's an investment that can pay off quickly if you like to change your wings around. Is it worth it? I don't know, that's a personal question. I have customers who buy 3 (each a different length no questions asked) and I have guys who tell me it's overpriced and laugh at me. If you spend a lot of time on the water, hate being forced into a new wing attachment ecosystem every season, want something unique, appreciate American made products, then I think it's a steal. If you are happy with your aluminum mast, then stick with it and enjoy the ride! Spend money on things that make you happy:)

Thanks again, Kyle
Great answer Kyle, and thank you for the in depth explanation...it all makes perfect sense, and is much appreciated. I can't say for sure that I'll be a buyer - I certainly wasn't previously - but now I'm most definitely interested if it's "stiffer than an aluminum mast", and that it "should be lighter" is just an added benefit for me.

Thanks again,
Dave
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 17, 2020, 12:43:15 AM
Unless you are racing, in which case the thinner masts reduce drag. But this is a small population, which is why I developed Project Cedrus.

Hi Kyle,

I dig your design and I have witnessed guys who are loving your masts (and ripping on them).  Very cool!

I get what you are saying and, no doubt, weight and stiffness are 2 of the big 3 key mast factors (with drag being the 3rd).  I do think that extra 3 mm across the wetted length matters for winging.  That is drag that we all have (most of us not racing).  Less drag translates to early take offs, better glides and less stalling.  We see foil companies marketing on shaving of 1-2 mm of thickness on their new foils (and in a lot of cases that comes at the expense of lift which is not the case with a mast thickness reduction).  This is all part of that same drag equation. 

You had mentioned in another thread that you could do tapered masts using your design and construction, but that they could not be custom sized.  Did I get that right? 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on October 17, 2020, 01:41:31 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy

Not to be rude but is that statement coming from personal experience?

Thank you for your discussion and interest, Kyle

Yes, my statement is from personal experience.  A friend of mine asked me to try his setup because he suspected increased drag and so I had an opportunity to do some extensive back to back testing and there was a noticeable reduction in acceleration and glide.  The reduction in glide was not subtle.  Kiters who ride powered all the time may not notice it as much, but for my style of foiling, it was very obvious.

I believe forums like this are great for sharing knowledge and work best when people with specific information report it honestly.  I have learned a lot here and hope I am doing my share to keep this forum the excellent platform it is.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on October 17, 2020, 01:59:02 AM
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy

....

Secondly, not one of those customers has complained of "noticeably more drag."



Those may not be the exact words but below is a quote from you:

"His feedback, to be entirely honest, was mixed. He admitted that he immediately noticed and loved the increased stiffness. His foil felt more responsive, and carved very well. But, he said the setup felt slow, which again to be entirely honest, wasnít a surprise. Project Cedrus is about 19mm thick, which is probably 4-5mm thicker than the bottom of the Moses mast, which means 30% more drag."

I have spoken to the rider whose feedback you report above.  He is an industry pro whose opinions I trust and I own several of his boards.

I am not going to take the time to find the quote now but I remember you writing somewhere in reference to the increased drag in your masts something to the effect that a slower foil may not always be a bad thing. 

In my opinion, increased drag in a mast is a complete deal breaker.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: BayAreaKite on October 17, 2020, 07:10:59 AM
Admin, thanks for the comments. You are reiterating one of my key points, which is that the wing contributes to a much larger portion of total drag than the mast. With wings you have wetted surface/skin drag, and lift-induced drag. Many of the wings now have a longer span than the length of the mast, which is insane considering where we were only 2 years ago! So yes, shaving 1-2mm from the thickness of a foil wing can have a bigger impact than shaving the same thickness off the mast because the wings are responsible for a larger portion of the total drag. And if we're going to talk about take-offs, you have to consider the drag of the board, which is 100x more draggy than the mast so I'm just going to forget about comments regarding Cedrus and takeoff;)

I could certainly do a tapered and even thinner version of Project Cedrus. This is the natural evolution of optimized product design; remember this is only gen 1. One of the things I have loved most about engineering at companies like Boeing and Apple is working with other engineers to converge on a solution that satisfies everyone involved in the design. In the case of Cedrus, I am trying to balance manufacturing constraints (remember, this is the only hollow carbon mast!), compatibility with different wings(!!), environmental concerns (using re-purposed aerospace prepreg), cost, structures, hydrodynamics, and weight. I was also a bit conservative with my first version, because I would rather someone pass on the product because of drag concerns than see pictures on forums of broken masts. Thankfully I was conservative, because the size of wings and boards people are riding these days could not have been predicted 3 years ago when I started this. So if/when there is another iteration, I could certainly taper or reduce thickness. But would reducing drag 10-20% result in a sales increase enough to cover the cost of new molds and tooling? I don't know... not a gamble i can afford to take at this time.

Phils, thank you for posting the quote from my blog. I'm glad people read the contents of my site, it has taken a lot of time and effort. As mentioned previously, yes this rider was riding faster Moses wings (633) AND using an older style adapter which made the increased drag more noticeable. One of the many things I have learned on this project over the past couple years is that the adapter design actually has significant impacts on performance and drag. If you look at my Lift and Axis adapters for example, you don't see them... they are recessed in the fuselage. But with Moses, there is a lot going on to get the surfaces to mate in an area that is already experiencing turbulent flow. I have refined all of my adapters over the years to reduce drag... in fact going a little too far with Moses so read that blog if you want a lesson in structures/FEA.

The quote regarding thinner masts causing higher lift induced drag is on my FAQ: https://projectcedrus.com/faq/ Basically, if the mast is too wing-like, you can generate lift (drag) which may be undesirable. This statement is from the gentlemen who designed the foils for Team Oracle (America's Cup) and SailGP. I worked closely with him to optimize my mast section. I am not an aero/CFD engineer, I am a structures guy. I cannot explain the voodoo science that's going on in the waters around a foil, in fact even the experts still don't entirely know. But his point was simply that thinner isn't always better depending on the objective.

Thanks again for all the discussion. I did not intend to high jack a post on Axis foils, but appreciate the topic came up. Project Cedrus is not perfect, and it never will be. That's the fun part of design and engineering:) I am however thankful that enough people think it's the right product for them to justify its existence and my investment of time and capital. It's been an unbelievable learning experience, and I am honored when someone forks over their hard earned money and nothing feels better than that first ride report which is usually very positive. Thanks again for the discussion and at risk of upsetting mods & admins I will refrain from any more sales pitch, if you can even call it that:)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 17, 2020, 08:03:02 AM
So if/when there is another iteration, I could certainly taper or reduce thickness. But would reducing drag 10-20% result in a sales increase enough to cover the cost of new molds and tooling? I don't know... not a gamble i can afford to take at this time.

I think that it would definitely be worth the effort.  You have already come most of the way.  I considered buying a couple of your masts but I didn't want to add the drag back in that we had shed from our Axis 19 aluminum masts.  If you could achieve what Axis has in terms of drag reduction and keep your stiffness and weight that would be exceptional. 

This is a natural for crowdfunding.  I suspect that you would get a significant response.  You would certainly know if you were fully funded before you spent any money and you wouldn't need to go out of pocket at all.  At this point you could move to a single base (industry standard track) and do away with the adaptors there.  That could clean up and simplify that area a lot.  3-4 lengths would likely cover it.

Yes, I am pushing you to blow it up :).

PS:  A question.  Could you taper to, say, 75 cm and then flow into a straight section that you could then trim to achieve various sizes?  You are the expert in strength but if that would work it might allow you to make only one or two molds.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Fishman on October 17, 2020, 09:25:26 AM
Kyle, Since you worked at Boeing you might be familiar with a material they used for cabin floor panels. It was 25 years ago since I've handled one but they were aluminum honey comb core, with what I think was fiberglass on ether side. They were very stiff and lightweight. I know it was expensive but I have wondered if the core of mast could use that material to achieve a ultra lightweight and stiff mast. Maybe worth looking at, or whatever they are using for floor panels nowadays, who knows.

It might have been McDonald Douglas aircraft now that I'm thinking about it
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 18, 2020, 07:31:23 AM
Every airliner uses honeycomb in the floors and have done so for decades. When women's fashion included stilletto heels some of the chunkier wearers were punching holes in the honeycomb. I think that was roughly 40 years ago. Back in the good old days when Boeing surplus was my primary reason for driving to seattle, I could get the aluminum clad sheets affordably, but the stuff is eye-wateringly expensive as new sheets. Generally the core material is aluminum and the sheets can be anything. I have sheets that are aluminum, steel and Kevlar clad. My steel clad stuff came from Intel, when they disassembled a clean room. It's routinely used for wall panels where dust is a problem. I use it to build shelves and tables in my shop. It resists bending but twists fairly easily.

It's great stuff, but not suitable for foil masts. It's a flat sheet--you can't shape it's thickness. I suppose you could press it to the point that the honeycomb collapsed but that would destroy the structural rigidity. And I've never seen it in thicknesses greater than 1/2". It can't be welded by any process other than spot welding--the honeycomb is glued to the panels.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 19, 2020, 12:10:55 AM
Ooooo ;D
Steamroller mentioned this in another thread, this thing looks like the new rear wing of my dreams.
Never got to try it but the long flat shape of the 460 kept me from experimenting. Of course the price keeps creeping up ::)

https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings/products/s-series-carbon-rear-wing-420mm
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 19, 2020, 08:21:26 AM
Ooooo ;D
Steamroller mentioned this in another thread, this thing looks like the new rear wing of my dreams.
Never got to try it but the long flat shape of the 460 kept me from experimenting. Of course the price keeps creeping up ::)

https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings/products/s-series-carbon-rear-wing-420mm
The 460 is a great stab for speed and pumping...and turns surprisingly well in the surf too boot, but just not as well as the 390 and why the 390 is my "go to" stab since I'm more about "surfing" the foil than I am trying to pump it back out.

Can't wait to get me hands on the new 420, because I think it'll be the sweet spot between the 390's turn-ability, and then 460's speed and pump-ability.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 20, 2020, 12:06:08 AM
I also used the 390 all summer and loved it. Never felt like I was missing out on glide but when I look at the specs, I probably was. The 390 has about 3x the volume of the 460 and appears to be their highest volume tail (even more than the 500). Sure there are other factors but that's a big one.

I just received the two Gong Veloce tails which have fairly long spans (43 and 47cm), but really low volumes (.09 and .12L). Wonder if I'll really need the larger but maybe it'll be great with the 2XL front wing at 107cm. Already thinking about bolting the Axis 420 to the tail of Gong mast. Unfortunately they use 25mm spacing and everyone else seems to use 30 which means a permanent mod to a $240 stab :( I wonder if one bolt is enough to hold it on through a couple of reaches for a pre mod experiment?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 20, 2020, 01:13:55 AM
The 390 has about 3x the volume of the 460 and appears to be their highest volume tail (even more than the 500).

Do they have that info online somewhere (volume, etc)?  I would love to see that.  It would seem odd that it was higher volume.  It feels the same thickness as the other tails and it has less chord than the 400 and above.  I have been really happy with the 390's but it would be cool to see what this one does :). 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 20, 2020, 07:54:16 AM

Do they have that info online somewhere (volume, etc)?  I would love to see that. 

Someone updated the Axis info in the Google doc. It seems to be the most complete of any brand (no 420 tail yet...) though many numbers of other brands don't really rough out in my head. I've not really had a good look at a 370 for instance and this is saying the 390 has about twice the volume.

Ya know, it would make sense that the .24255 liters of the 390 is actually .14255. Then it would fit right in line with the others perfectly :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17xbTGEWSVeRhnYb_4vz_Gmby8UnrDys7Q1iB-6rC6F4/edit#gid=0
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 20, 2020, 09:06:41 AM
Thanks! Yeah, that looks like a simple typo (there are a lot of errors on that doc).  This 420 is going to be super low volume.  That sounds really nice.  We will have to try one!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 20, 2020, 10:35:58 AM
Has anyone seen one in person to compare the 460 to the 420? According the the lift designer on the progression project. Winglets are exactly the same as having an extra inch of flat wing. Both the 460 and the 420 have the same chord. Is it just flipped tips? That would give you a bit better control over yaw. I wonder if the 420 is thinner though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 21, 2020, 02:20:47 AM
I saw this comment from Adrian Roper from Axis over on Facebook (in a funny thread which turned into a debate about the most important single factor for foil design):

Adrian: back to the original question my main ride recently (prototype wing) has been a wing with an area of 1200cm2 but span of 980mm, a mean average chord of 124mm, aspect ratio of 7.89. Great fun very fast, carvy and fun to ride. Not 1000cm2 but close and I am 89kg.

Sounds like there are some new super high aspect foils in the works.  4.9 inches of average chord. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on October 21, 2020, 02:58:03 AM
I guess itís not a secret anymore. FLkiter has the 980 with the new fuse. It looks sexy. New fuse is bad ass in black with small head.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 21, 2020, 03:26:49 AM
Stoked to see this one.  Sounds like a very quick combo with the new 420.  I wonder about sustain.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on October 21, 2020, 03:35:44 AM
In testing the 1150, I asked Adrian if a 370 with less cord would speed up the foil while keeping lift in the turns. He said he had a rear wing in development to do that. So if you want some added speed, the 420 will give you that boost.

For the 980, I can't give much info on it yet but I feel it will be really well received.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on October 21, 2020, 06:27:00 AM
High aspect and low volume/low surface area with large wingspan is the ticket for speed and efficiency for sure. Sounds like Axis is going the direction of a kiteracing/windfoil racing foil which will be nice to see. I'm sure Axis being in SF and seeing the Mike's Lab guys do their thing was an influence.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 21, 2020, 08:29:02 AM
Thatís disappointing. I want 30 inch wide wings. The 760 is my preferred wing currently. Wider wingspans are hard to control in white water. I keep holding out for something better but I shouldíve just bought into the cloud9 f28 way back when at this rate.

Buying new wings and fuse is frustrating too. Thatís half of a system right there.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 21, 2020, 08:47:45 AM
Hi Hdip,

They really had to do another fuselage.  With the thickness of the current head they had limited themselves from being able to design thinner foils.  This will certainly result in a bunch of new designs.  I am stoked to hear that they are working on super high aspect but I am also hopeful for some new more neutral designs. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 21, 2020, 11:03:57 AM
Has anyone seen one in person to compare the 460 to the 420? According the the lift designer on the progression project. Winglets are exactly the same as having an extra inch of flat wing. Both the 460 and the 420 have the same chord. Is it just flipped tips? That would give you a bit better control over yaw. I wonder if the 420 is thinner though.
From Patrick (LAFC) - "Like the 460, but more bite in the turns. More hold. More drive."
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 21, 2020, 11:10:05 AM

Kind of an apples and oranges comparison, no big surprises here, long and skinny glides further.  It's pretty easy to see he's working harder on the HS1850.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roccGJTaaEs&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 21, 2020, 09:29:22 PM
Thatís disappointing. I want 30 inch wide wings. The 760 is my preferred wing currently. Wider wingspans are hard to control in white water. I keep holding out for something better but I shouldíve just bought into the cloud9 f28 way back when at this rate.

Buying new wings and fuse is frustrating too. Thatís half of a system right there.
Tend to agree except in my case was hoping for some new development in a big brother to the 760 & 860 in a 960 for us big guys for supfoiling and winging the waves, really like the existing Axis fuse and the head as especially for a heavier rider that fuse and head really helps stabilize the larger wings and such a primo connection,that said have not seen the new fuse yet but really hope Axis doesnít ditch the current fuse in favor of all out direction change to these ultra HA wings and forgetting about development of the great surf 60 series and other lower aspect wings that kick ass in the waves,have yet to use/try a HA wing that carves and turns in decent waves like a real surf wing with utmost confidence just find the HA wings in decent surf can at times get a mind of there own at times n not the greatest way,however really like the 1150 for flatter lighter days winging and the new 420 looks intriguing for sure.guess if 2 for 1s and pumping around in flat water is your gig,surely the HA wing is king but for solid wave riding supfoiling and winging take a 860 /820 /920 or a new 960 any day
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on October 24, 2020, 02:36:44 AM
I have an Axis 76 cm carbon mast and I like it a lot for winging, to much wind her lately to try it supping.Hope it will be stiff enough!

Only thing I don't like is that to attach the fuse a 25 mm screw is a bit short and a 30 mm screw doesn't fit because it is too long.

I am looking for 27 or 28 mm screws but didn't find any. I could try to shorten a longer screw....

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Seattle-Wind on October 24, 2020, 03:52:24 PM
I heard a rumor about a new large surf-style foil wing from Axis sized around 1850. Does anyone have any info on that model?

I also saw a rumor on a so-called new ďBlackĒ line/series. Any info on that?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on October 24, 2020, 05:14:10 PM
Just what you see at the bottom of the last page in this thread. That's the newest wing I've heard rumors of.

I haven't heard of any new surf specific wings personally.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on October 25, 2020, 09:55:26 AM
I heard a rumor about a new large surf-style foil wing from Axis sized around 1850. Does anyone have any info on that model?

I also saw a rumor on a so-called new ďBlackĒ line/series. Any info on that?
No info on either, but good golly, what a mistake an 1850 "large surf-style foil wing from Axis" would be.

Hell, they already have large surf-style foil wings that handle the smallest of minuscule surf bumps out there. Can't imagine needing an over 6' wing in the surf, and if they're talking 1850cm2 in area...they already have the 920 (@1852) and the 1020 (@2051).

So I don't get it if that "rumor" is indeed true. :-\

Now I did see/hear that they have a super large surf HA-style foil wing they're out playing with. But whether or not that ever comes to fruition as an actual model in their line is still a little ways off I'd imagine. 🤫
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on October 27, 2020, 02:32:25 AM
The ď980Ē, 7.8ish AR wing discussed above will apparently require a new style fuse so itís a $1000+ investment. Iíll have to see what that wing mount looks like and likely even demo it. The main reason I went with Axis was the surface area of that Front wing mount.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on October 27, 2020, 03:35:42 AM
I heard a rumor about a new large surf-style foil wing from Axis sized around 1850. Does anyone have any info on that model?

I also saw a rumor on a so-called new ďBlackĒ line/series. Any info on that?
No info on either, but good golly, what a mistake an 1850 "large surf-style foil wing from Axis" would be.

Hell, they already have large surf-style foil wings that handle the smallest of minuscule surf bumps out there. Can't imagine needing an over 6' wing in the surf, and if they're talking 1850cm2 in area...they already have the 920 (@1852) and the 1020 (@2051).

So I don't get it if that "rumor" is indeed true. :-\

Now I did see/hear that they have a super large surf HA-style foil wing they're out playing with. But whether or not that ever comes to fruition as an actual model in their line is still a little ways off I'd imagine. 🤫

No inside info at all here but I am imagining that Axis was feeling a little boxed in by their current fuselage thickness.  Great wings already for sure but there are only so many dimensions to work with and if one of them has a hard limit...

If they have indeed done a thinner fuselage (and likely new hardware would be required) then I imagine that we would see some revisiting of older designs with a new freedom.  This could result in some terrific new wings for the upcoming season.   
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on October 27, 2020, 10:52:14 AM
Rod had a prototype "black" fuselage in the late summer. Slick. Quite a bit thinner than the red fuse, and they use a small screw in the front (looked like maybe 5MM) and 8MM for the rear screws. I suspect that will get them down to at least as thin a foil profile as any plug-type fuse.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on October 31, 2020, 08:48:47 AM
Had a few sessions on the new 420 with my 1150 and was impressed with its improved handling compared to the 460,must say not as twitchy as the 460 and tad bit faster enjoyed the combo on a couple of flattish lighter days.Iím not really a winger looking for speed as been there done that kitefoiling,but must admit that combo gets going at a pretty good clip which is fun on flatter days increasing upwind ability angles,and turning seems pretty solid for a HA combo.Was wondering if any you guys tried it yet and thoughts as well? Iím thinking of selling my 460 if anyone interested going to use my 1150 with the 420 and 440 for while now
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 02, 2020, 08:14:00 AM
A number of new vids from the Foiling NY guy. A couple of the newer Go Foil wings (P180, NL190) were tested and more interesting (to me at least), a comparison of the Axis 1150 / 460 tail with both + and - shims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CUZxFVJ1JI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIpY3VUlWro&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rct7ME6z-Us
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 02, 2020, 08:29:24 AM
A number of new vids from the Foiling NY guy. A couple of the newer Go Foil wings (P180, NL190) were tested and more interesting (to me at least), a comparison of the Axis 1150 / 460 tail with both + and - shims.

That makes a lot of sense for that large front wing.  He said that it felt like his foot balance became better when he reduced the downward angle of the rear wing by 1 degree.  It would be interesting to see him test the same on his smaller fronts and see if and where the stock angle or 1 degree further down was a benefit.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 12, 2020, 10:34:08 AM
Hi fellas,

Thinking of making a complete swap from Moses to Axis. Iíve got the 790 and 720 with 483/450 stabs. Iím 77 kg and ride pretty choppy water or crappy on shore wind blown waves. I want to go faster, get good glide and cut through turbulence. I was looking at the W1000/800 combo but would need another fuse, so might make the swap to the more modular Axis.

So if u were me, what two wings would u get? And what two stabs to maximise the lower and upper wind range of each would u get. Iíll get the 85cm 19mm alu mast.

I use Ensis wings 6/4.5/3.5 and I ride 15-40 mph winds on a 85 and 115L boards.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on November 12, 2020, 02:05:40 PM
Hi fellas,

Thinking of making a complete swap from Moses to Axis. Iíve got the 790 and 720 with 483/450 stabs. Iím 77 kg and ride pretty choppy water or crappy on shore wind blown waves. I want to go faster, get good glide and cut through turbulence. I was looking at the W1000/800 combo but would need another fuse, so might make the swap to the more modular Axis.

So if u were me, what two wings would u get? And what two stabs to maximise the lower and upper wind range of each would u get. Iíll get the 85cm 19mm alu mast.

I use Ensis wings 6/4.5/3.5 and I ride 15-40 mph winds on a 85 and 115L boards.

Cheers

Mike

Here's an easy and relatively inexpensive way to attach the Moses W1000 to your surf fuse.

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/moses-fuselage-to-wing-adapter-plate/






Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on November 12, 2020, 07:55:20 PM
I would recommend the 1150 and 1010. These wings are ridiculous! I like the 460 stab with both but also have fun on the 390GAP. This one is more turny but has a noticeable speed limit. I am learning every session how to turn the 460 with the 1150 and 1010. Ultra short fuse is nice. My next purchase is the 105 mast. I am currently on the 83 mast but I see how a deeper foil will turn better with these big wide wings. I can flag out and pump as far as I want on the 1150. Jibes and carving 360's are effortless with this amount of glide.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 13, 2020, 02:23:34 AM
I would go with the 760 and 860.  760 is Axis's quickest wing and is super fun.  The 860 is its mellow big brother.  Really easy going.  Both of these wings stay planted in wild wind and water. 

Hard not to wait and see what comes next though on the new fuselage. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 13, 2020, 05:47:41 AM
thanks guys.

I did contact Mackiteboarding 2x before about that adapter but they never replied.

Admin, I think we are about same weight. The 860/760 combo sounds good. You are using the 390 GAP I think.

Whats the low end for you on the 860? and if you were to get another stab to go with the 860/760 and 390 combo?

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 13, 2020, 06:24:18 AM
Hi Mike,

You can go really low on the 860 (10 MPH) with a 5 and lower with a 6.  I haven't been using my 5 or 6 at all because it almost always hits 14 MPH here and at 14 both the 760 and 860 work really well with a 4.2 Swing.  Pump hard for a few seconds and it happens.  Once you are up you are good.  The wind range is very similar on both the 760 and the 860 with the 860 having a teeny low end advantage.  The 760 is quite a bit faster but it is a bit more sensitive rail to rail.  It will let you know if your feet aren't centered enough.  You don't have to be careful with the 860 at all.  Both glide really well through sloppy jibes but the 860 has a little advantage there as well.

We have only been using the 390 tails.  We had all of the other earlier tails and none were close to the 390.  I will pick up the new one as well just to see but I am really happy with the 390's. 

Chan and I switch off between the two setups (860, Short Fuselage, 390 and 760, Standard Fuselage, 390).  We have narrowed down to just those two setups now so it is pretty easy. 

I love gear but honestly I am really satisfied with my whole kit right now. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on November 13, 2020, 06:42:33 AM
Any time I can get up on it, the 860 is my goto foil, generally with the 390. At my weight (215) it takes some serious speed to get up but once I'm up it's magic. I'm still stuck with the other wings in the quiver until I lose a few more pounds or get a little better at getting up in sub-optimal conditions.

The 1150 is amazing for ghosting along on next to nothing for wind or swell though I tried it surfing at SanO and ran back in for the 1000. Probably would have been better off with the 900 or the 860. I think if there were a 960 my quiver would collapse to 860, 960, 1150 and the 390 and 440 tails. I like the 440 with a 2 degree negative shim. The 390 is fine as it is though a 1 degree negative calms down the sudden pop-ups.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on November 14, 2020, 04:51:14 PM
Hey Flkiter how does the 1300 compare to the 1150? Give us some details and pics please the time has come!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 14, 2020, 06:09:02 PM
Hey Flkiter how does the 1300 compare to the 1150? Give us some details and pics please the time has come!

I haven't been given the ok yet to spill the details on what's in the works. I'll be in Cocoa Beach soon tho to work on testing. Big North East winds are coming.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on November 15, 2020, 08:40:45 AM
Hi fellas,

Thinking of making a complete swap from Moses to Axis. Iíve got the 790 and 720 with 483/450 stabs. Iím 77 kg and ride pretty choppy water or crappy on shore wind blown waves. I want to go faster, get good glide and cut through turbulence. I was looking at the W1000/800 combo but would need another fuse, so might make the swap to the more modular Axis.

So if u were me, what two wings would u get? And what two stabs to maximise the lower and upper wind range of each would u get. Iíll get the 85cm 19mm alu mast.

I use Ensis wings 6/4.5/3.5 and I ride 15-40 mph winds on a 85 and 115L boards.

Cheers

Mike
You might consider the 920 as a excellent all around wing my favorite rock solid in the surf and rough conditions much better than a HA in the kind of conditions your talking,like my 1150/420 in smoother conditions but in decent waves and rough water the 920/440 is a real nice set up and with your weight you can ride in lighter winds too! Iím like Bill dreaming they come out with a 960 for us bigger guys that would be optimum.I personally have not tried the 860 as holding hope a 960 will be coming,yeah I know wishful thinking,but highly recommend the 920 in the conditions you describe I ride with 19mm 82 mast short fuse with 440 tail canít beat it in choppy/turbulent windy decent swell just a really trustworthy set up that responds super well to rider input

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 15, 2020, 01:16:40 PM
Thanks again guys for all the great input. Paddlur those condiitions ur in look similar to mine, one of my spots gets even more messy.

So overall Iíve been advised 920/910/860 for my bigger wing and the 760 for the smaller one and 440/460/390 stab combinations.

Just need to make my mind up and make a decision.🤣

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on November 15, 2020, 01:31:21 PM
Just a prone guy here, no handwing for me. But, I'd say of those options. 860 front, 460 (so you have the option to chop it) or 390 rear.

The 860 and 910 are very close. 910 has more pump, 860 has more turn.

The 760 is my favorite front wing by far. Hard not to have a 900 in my quiver though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on November 15, 2020, 05:38:08 PM
I shortened my 90CM mast to about 82 today. It was too draggy and too deep for surfing at SanO. Unfortunately I think I missed prime time while I was doing the shortening, which took about five times as long as it would have in my shop. When I got back out it was kind of dying--I got a few nice little rides, but the swell was dropping fast and the tide was super low, so I kept hitting grass in mid-ride. Or more accurate, at the middle of the planned ride but the end of actual ride.

Still, a fun day. Nice meeting all the foilers. Dave Daum showed up, always good to see Dave, and he was killing it on the foil. I'd like to get a board better for foil surfing from him--my flying dutchman is great for wingfoiling, but it wasn't made to SUP foil, so it feels very sticky--I have to get deep into the wave to get up. Once I'm up I'm fine, but I'm paddling like a lunatic to get every wave. Unfortunately he's slammed, as is I guess pretty much every board maker right now.

I also ran into Chris Kohner. Always fun to see Chris, such a great guy. Nice day.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on November 15, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
Thanks again guys for all the great input. Paddlur those condiitions ur in look similar to mine, one of my spots gets even more messy.

So overall Iíve been advised 920/910/860 for my bigger wing and the 760 for the smaller one and 440/460/390 stab combinations.

Just need to make my mind up and make a decision.🤣

Cheers

Mike
Mike for the conditions your describing at your home spot Iíd steer away from a HA wings IMO my 2cents better off with a 760,860 or 920,now if more flat water range yeah HA might be nice for winging weíre talking  here,not prone or sup different ball game
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 16, 2020, 12:49:05 PM
Thanks guys 👍🏻 Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 19, 2020, 08:21:41 AM
So 16 or 19 mm mast? And does anyone know then the new fuselage is released?

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on November 19, 2020, 02:46:36 PM
If you're prone surfing and your biggest wing will be the 900/910 you can use the 16mm mast. It's what I use and my main wing is the 760, but I put the 900 on for when I want to pump.

If you're SUP or you plan on using bigger wings then use the 19mm mast.

Oh wait, you're kiting or winging aren't you? You'll probably be jumping at some point. Use the 19mm mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 19, 2020, 03:27:59 PM
If anyone is in the Cocoa Beach area tomorrow, I'll be doing a demo again at Kelly park. I have the new 980/1050 black series and 1300 with someone else that's coming soon. I'll try to do one Saturday also. I'll also have the ensis wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on November 19, 2020, 04:01:32 PM
flkiter -- Could you please give us your opinion of the Ensis wing over in the Ensis thread?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on November 19, 2020, 06:13:59 PM
If anyone is in the Cocoa Beach area tomorrow, I'll be doing a demo again at Kelly park. I have the new 980/1050 black series and 1300 with someone else that's coming soon. I'll try to do one Saturday also. I'll also have the ensis wings.
Pictures por favor,is the 980 anything close to a big brother of the 860🙏
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on November 20, 2020, 01:08:50 AM
If anyone is in the Cocoa Beach area tomorrow, I'll be doing a demo again at Kelly park. I have the new 980/1050 black series and 1300 with someone else that's coming soon. I'll try to do one Saturday also. I'll also have the ensis wings.

Are you able to share some specs on these foils yet?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on November 20, 2020, 09:34:23 AM
Just saw this:
(http://)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 20, 2020, 09:41:34 AM
Oooohhh!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on November 20, 2020, 04:54:48 PM
Sexy! I am guessing that the thickness has been reduced and that thing hauls ass for a 1m foil. Feverishly checking the Axis site for releases.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on November 20, 2020, 07:20:30 PM
dang was hoping for a big bro to the 860 going fast been there done that kite foiling in the beginning,I wanna good wave wing that can stay in the pocket more not outrun the sweet spot sections of waves,donít mind going a bit slower in the waves as they create there own speed energy.disappointing they donít come out with a big bro to the 860 for us wave riders as HA wings so far in decent waves for me at least ainít happening much prefer 920-820-860 style wings for waves,love my 1150 for smaller flatter winging but for decent wave riding trying to emulate some of my surfing to foil moves the HA ainít cutting it so far for me,and seems like HA wings is the hype for going fast 2-3 to ones but letís get back to the basics wave riding seems like the new HA is the end all no R&D for a big bro to the 860 is long over due,early Xmas present Axis a new 960 please🙏
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 21, 2020, 10:23:30 AM
They kept all that nice surface area of the original fuse, excellent.
1257cm3 volume  8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 21, 2020, 04:31:32 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CH0IZtNjiqC/?igshid=1p88t85ta9acl

I'm guessing we're allowed to start giving some info on the 980 black series. I've been on it for most of hurricane season and it's been making the victory at sea type of days so much fun. This is a fast foil and it requires a +1 shim on the rear wing. The thing you'll get with this foil being fast is that it's super stable. I don't even feel the speed anymore until I wipe out and skip across the water till my leash stops me. I can drop into the biggest ocean swells I can find and not worry about getting closed out on them. The up wind ability has me passing wind surfers in speed and up wind ability. So getting back up wind to ride swell down wind again is effortless and fast. Very little pressure in my hands when winging now.
I'm not a fan of fast foils in kiting, always felt un stable and a lot of work. Not the same for the 980, it's stable at low speeds and just pure fluid feel at high speeds. I recommend helmet and ear covers when riding the 980. I'm paired on the ultra short and 370 rear.
You get really nice glide in the turns also so when you come off a nice swell, you can turn to head back to sea and you have plenty of glide before you need to get the wing in front of you to power back up. This glide in the turns really lets you crank around on the faces and skip the flat sections to the next drops. I recommend an 82 or 90 cm mast if you're ocean riding so you can get into the really steep stuff.
As a wing dedicated set up, the 980 handles everything I want for the higher winds. Plus the jumps have been great with the speed I can get against the wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on November 22, 2020, 06:49:57 AM
Nick, thanks for this review! Sounds awesome. Someone claimed on the Breeze that the new wing and fuse were 2X more expensive and that there was no compatability with other wings. Can you speak to any of that? I was hoping that foil prices across the board would start coming down like some brands have. I am awfully tempted towards A KD carbon mast and wings set up from Neilpryde for $1700. I love my Axis quiver but their prices are killing me. Eg- $240 for the 420 stab!!!!  Guess I'll just pick on of my kids to skip college.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 22, 2020, 07:29:55 AM
Someone claimed on the Breeze that the new wing and fuse were 2X more expensive...

Guy was being sarcastic

Only truth he spoke is...black fuse is designed exclusive to the HPS (High Performance Series) wings. Reason being, the HPS series is a very thin, very fast, class of wing. It needs a fuse with thin head, to match thin wings. Tails are compatible with black or red fuselage.

If youíre not into going fast, you wonít even bother owning the black fuselage. All the other new secret wings fit the red (original) fuse. No need to leave Axis. Most will still use red.

Iím back riding Axis again. Iím on black and HPS.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: winged surfer on November 22, 2020, 08:01:29 AM
Hello Dwight,
Iím interested in how do you feel going back to something not full carbon.
What Axis wing are you using instead of the 1250 hsí Armstrong?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on November 22, 2020, 08:26:36 AM
Thanks for the 980 review, Nick!  Can you (or anyone else) comment on technique to get it on a foil when winging -- does it require a lot of forward speed and wing power to avoid stalling and collapse when starting, or can you foot- and wing-pump it up at slower speed? 

Thanks for any opinion or experience!

Andy
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 22, 2020, 08:26:56 AM
Hello Dwight,
Iím interested in how do you feel going back to something not full carbon.
What Axis wing are you using instead of the 1250 hsí Armstrong?

Iím on carbon. 86cm mast. Compared to 85cm Armstrong, Axis mast is stiffer side to side and stiffer in twist. Heavier mast, but thatís the price of a stiffer upgrade. Now with slotted base holes BTW.

You need the (thinner at the bottom) carbon mast and low drag 420 tail to extract the full potential of the HPS series in my opinion.

Axis HPS 980 (1218 sq cm) replaces Armstrong HS1250

Armstrong fire sale coming soon to the Zone.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 22, 2020, 08:40:51 AM
That kit looks outrageous.  I am powerless to resist that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on November 22, 2020, 10:24:21 AM
Looks fast, faster sounds fun.

With a span of 38" how is turning?   Surface piercing or face planting?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on November 22, 2020, 10:27:45 AM
Oh and Bill, wondering if you were able to get a square cut on the mast with mobile tools?  How?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on November 22, 2020, 06:12:37 PM
Yes, I did all the work on the tailgate of my truck with primitive hand tools. the trick to cutting a straight line with anything remotely tubelike is to do several wraps of tape, lining the tape up carefully as you wrap. If the end of the wrap meets up with the start of the wrap without any wrinkle in the tape then it's close to exactly perpendicular, I make several wraps to give me a lip and then cut with a hacksaw, checking the backside occasionally to ensure I'm tracking. Keeping the hacksaw vertical and following the line carefully makes short work of it.

tapping the holes was equally primitive--I have my 3/16 hex drive impact driver with me, and a set of drills. I bought a 7mm 3/16 drive drill and a 8mm tap. Drilled the holes a little bigger (the stock holes are about 6.5mm) and carefully tapped the holes, making sure to break the chips frequently. I took my time and got a nice result.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 23, 2020, 01:53:57 AM
When you guys have a chance please let us know the max thickness of the fuselage head. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 23, 2020, 06:44:23 AM
I'm curious if the 980 itself is thinner than 1.5cm?  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on November 23, 2020, 10:52:29 AM
flkiter- You mention the 980 being everything you want for managing higher winds. What about light winds? Is there a wing in the HPS line you like for light wind? Something to replace the 1150 that is faster and higher performance? Have you rode the 1300 yet? Thx
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2020, 02:39:46 AM
I was thinking I could hold off until Baja but this new kit may get me out in the freezing cold Columbia next week.  Stoked to try it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on November 24, 2020, 06:38:20 AM
Iím holding off on my 860/760 purchase until all this stuff drops. Be good to know the lower and upper wind range of this 980. Admin be good to get feedback on it from you when u ride it in comparison to 860.
Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2020, 07:58:46 AM
Iím holding off on my 860/760 purchase until all this stuff drops. Be good to know the lower and upper wind range of this 980. Admin be good to get feedback on it from you when u ride it in comparison to 860.
Mike

If we get a day in the 50's I am on it.  It has been really cold here but we usually see some nice days in late Nov/Dec.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2020, 08:54:49 AM
This is a fast foil and it requires a +1 shim on the rear wing.

2 questions.  Is it +1 as below?  That naming can be pretty confusing.  I assume this means that you are flattening the tail like the - 1 shim below.  Is that right?

Also, do you have any printed shims or are you guys using washers?  I would love to get some printed shims.

Thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: all~wet on November 24, 2020, 09:27:07 AM
The -1 shim: decreases the angle on the stab = less lift / increased speed.

The +1 shim increases the angle on the stab = more lift / increased drag.

I have a -1 shim permanently on my 390. I was skeptical that little shim/a 1 degree change would do anything noticeable, but as in all things foil- it is surprising the difference little tweaks make. On a prone in the surf- makes that tail feel noticeably more slippery/lively.

I have 5 +1 shims sitting in my parts box, but have yet to try one. 

I downloaded the files on the Axis site and had some printed up. I used sculpteo.com

Upload the file, order, select material. For material I used: SLS (Plastic), Nylon PA12 and its held up well. Took a few weeks... was around $35 for 5 shipped. The more parts ordered, the cheaper it gets.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 24, 2020, 02:00:57 PM
Admin,

Axis supplied the shim with the black fuse and 420 tail. Evan said you must use the shim with that combo.

The shim is jacking the back end of the 420
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 24, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
Thanks Dwight.  I would not have guessed that. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on November 24, 2020, 08:38:30 PM
This is a fast foil and it requires a +1 shim on the rear wing.

Also, do you have any printed shims or are you guys using washers?  I would love to get some printed shims.

Thanks


Losangelesfoilclub just printed a run of these but I think theyíre all spoken for. If you need some I can ask our guy with a 3D printer to work on getting you a few.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 25, 2020, 12:25:44 AM
Hdip, thanks so much.  I have a 980, Short, 420 coming today and I will see if it has a shim with it as well.  If not I will likely take you up on that. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 25, 2020, 04:19:55 AM
For those that have not had the pleasure of meeting Evan, here is Mr. Axis US ;D

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIAcNCPDC2y/?igshid=o74g8plb7a8w
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 27, 2020, 04:17:20 AM
Oh yeah!  Got in a T-Day sesh on the new 980 with the short black fuselage and the 420 tail.  Dwight and I don't always like the same foils, so I had my concerns, but I can say for sure that we agree on this one.  Axis has done something really remarkable here. 

First off, the conditions were really bad.  I am the least picky person on the planet in terms of wind.  Well, I might whine about them, but I go in full-on junk all the time.  Even so, I would have left this one alone if it hadn't of been for new gear :).  Average wind of 11 MPH, lulls to 4, stripey offshore gusts to 17.  Mid session, the wind nulled an I had to sit on the board for 5 minutes waiting for a lift that would even fly my 5.0 Swing.  Complete crap.  It was 47 degrees and the water is 49.  That's fine in my suit.  Lousy conditions but it was great to test the low end side of this kit.

I am calling the 980 the new king of low wind.  It takes off in nothing.  It barely has to be moving.  I say that even though I have no complaints about the low range on the 760 and 860.  I put on the 5.0 Swing which I hadn't used in months.  Forget the gusts (which were really just irritating and were too short lived to make use of).  This thing will easily lift off in 10/11 MPH with a couple of minor wing pumps and without any board pumping (my legs were useless when I started and pumping wasn't going happen).

My kit did come with a rear shim.  It lifts at the rear screw and forces more down angle into the tail.  I took one run and came back to take that out.  For me at 175 lbs. it was way better without it.  This front needs no help taking off (it basically does that on auto pilot) and with the shim it felt too much when riding as well.  With no shim it was super sweet.  I am going to put a washer on the front screw to flatten the tail even more and see how that goes.  I am not quite sure why the down shim is suggested.  Possibly that is for larger riders.

I was running on apparent wind only into most of my jibes and this foil was still giving me all kinds of time.  I find those to be the hardest jibes.  When the air wing is basically lifeless and unsupported through the turn and you have to rely entirely on your hydrofoil to complete the turn only to catch a powerless wing on the other side.  Swell can help a lot with this but there was zero swell yesterday.  The 980 is phenomenal in this department.

My gut is that this will be a super fast foil.  I had only two runs where I could really set her loose, but those made me laugh out loud.  Not  because this was the fastest I have ever gone but because it was the fastest I have ever gone in that light a wind.  This a very impressive foil.

I definitely won't need the bigger one. This is a big foil for me.  It is ultra stable and immediately comfortable to use.  I wish that I could comment on swell riding, downwind, etc. but it wasn't that kind of day. 

Looks like we may get better wind today as an easterly.  If that turns out I am going to give her a go in better wind.

There are some really cool things about this new fuselage and the foil itself.  I am checking with Axis to see if it is cool to post images of that.

So far, so stoked!

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 27, 2020, 06:13:06 AM
Glad you liked it Admin.

Itís not that we donít like the same things, itís more than Iíve kite foiled, windsurf foil, surf foiled, and now wing foiled, for a lot of years, so I know precisely what I want my foil to do and donít have the skills to design and make it myself. I expressed what I wanted last Winter, when Evan was here. Donít know if that had any impact, but the 980 is the foil I wanted back then. Itís even better than I dreamed it could be, so thatís why the Armstrong fire sale happened so decisively.

Now that itís here, Iíve never been more content with my setup.

The bigger version is awesome too. But too big for the Gorge. The bigger version is wonderful for Florida.

I donít think beginners should freak out and jump on these wings. They are for experienced wingers in my opinion. There is an all round series coming for the red fuse to get excited about for most users.

The shim is not required on the red fuse. The black fuse saddle is designed at a lower angle of attack than the red, so the shim is suggested, especially with the 420. My foot balance is perfect at all speeds with the shim.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on November 27, 2020, 06:25:05 AM
I found the shim helped to stabilize the foil better at slower speeds in washing machine conditions. Clean conditions, I can see the shim not being needed cause at high speeds, the 980 is really stable with or without the shim.
Once you get that 980 into some big swell, you'll really be having fun. I haven't found a limit on how big or fast a drop that foil can't handle yet. I'm riding it on an ultra short fuselage and 370 rear. I heard the windsurf foilers that get on it, are dropping everything else they've been on.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 27, 2020, 06:30:23 AM
Axis responded and said it was cool  to post images and specs, so here goes. 

I asked about the shim and they mentioned what Dwight wrote above.  This is a lower angle head and they mentioned that the shim helps with early takeoff.  We all have our own techniques and conditions but for me this thing really doesn't need any help.  It is a very low key takeoff.  There were no whitecaps when I was out and the water was shiny in places.  A group of (really good) windfoilers came out on big kit (7 and 8 meter sails) and they were foiling about 50%.  The two kite foilers that were out both dropped and had to water drift home.  This is that new foiler feeling all over again when you are shocked by how smooth foiling can be.  I had that again yesterday.  It just notches up the silkiness again.  From what I have felt so far I know that a wide range of users are going to dig this style.  Maybe not brand new riders but I think it is going to appeal to a very wide set. 

The new head is also very sculpted.  It nests into the head pocket on the foil which has the opposite contour.  The head is a bit smaller than the red head but still large.  It is significantly thinner which allows very thin foils.  It looks to be right at or just over 1 cm for max foil thickness.  It is essentially the max thickness of the foil head plus enough depth for the conical recess for the screw head.  That's it.  Special hardware is required for the front 2 screws to make this work.  You can see that in the image of hardware (and the shim as well).  Additionally the new short fuselage is a bit longer that the old short.  That may have added to the overall stability that I noticed.  This was also my first day on the 420.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 27, 2020, 06:37:26 AM
Think about all the money I wasted during the last year chasing my vision of precisely what a foil for winging should be.  ;D ;D So many foils did some things right, but nobody got it all right, per my idea of what is right. To be a shaper and be able to make my idea of whatís right, and not be able to get a foil that is right....it was a painful and expensive year.

Now it is my dream season.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on November 27, 2020, 07:45:19 AM
Well this is great news Admin & Dwight! Mine comes today with ultra short. We get a ton of 8-15 garbage here in Reno all winter that I will be slaying on my 980. Thanks for posting comparison pics Admin. Its nuts how thin that head is. I have been riding the 1150 and 1010 lately. I wander if the 980 will replace all of these? I will pair it with the 460 tail on my 5' moonbuddy. I was worried when I saw the 1200 projected that it would need real wind. I am beginning to understand that the projected area of the new HA foils is not so relevant anymore. There is just a lot more going on than size. You guys got me fired up!! Send it! 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on November 27, 2020, 08:38:29 AM
Huge thank you for the pictures. Theyíve fixed every annoyance I have with the red fuselage. Looks so good.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 27, 2020, 08:52:56 AM
Great, thanks for the pics Admin  :)

Anyone know the specs of the larger version?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on November 27, 2020, 09:01:00 AM
Axis 1300 front wing.  1700 cm2 projected with AR of 9.94.  Holy S**!  Anyone try it yet?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 27, 2020, 11:24:24 AM
Any links Phil? I'm seeing only vague reference to a 1050 in the HPS line (and some smaller sizes than the 980)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 27, 2020, 12:18:36 PM
Here are some comparisons to my trusty 860.  The thickness image is pretty telling.  The 860 is not a thick foil so we are clearly in new territory here. More than being excited about 1 foil (which I am), this is going to open up a whole new world.  Have a look at that top image and take that in for a second.  This is holy shit territory.

The other images answer my earlier question about fuselage length.  The black fuse itself is longer but the overall foil base is shorter.  I lined up the scew holes on both the 860 and 980 and shot them from above.  I needed to do it in 3 shots because the perspective was otherwise confusing. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on November 27, 2020, 12:35:02 PM
Any links Phil? I'm seeing only vague reference to a 1050 in the HPS line (and some smaller sizes than the 980)

I only have a picture of the foil with the specs. Span 1300, chord 180, actual area 1712, projected 1700, volume 1895, AR 9.94.  The appearance of the fuse attachment area makes me think it is not HPS.  Might be the ticket to Gorge DW next year.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on November 27, 2020, 09:27:34 PM
For those that have not had the pleasure of meeting Evan, here is Mr. Axis US ;D
Evan's the man! Straight up great guy who we always look forward to having in town when he swings by this way a couple times a year. 8):D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 28, 2020, 03:31:00 PM
I had my 3rd 980 session today. The second session was a 4.2 Swing session with the  420 tail again (with and without the shim - I wanted to check it both ways with some better wind).  Today was a really sweet 3.5 session.  I put on the 390 with no shim to check that out.  That is a killer combo. 

This thing is hysterical in swell.  It takes a minute to get used to the lack of deceleration.  It requires a whole new timing and a lot less angle.  Same with jibes.  It was 42 degrees and the water is down to 46.  My hands were in gloves and even so they were nearing bricked up.  Suffice it to say that may handwork was pretty sloppy.  Twice I passed the front handle, grabbed the rear only to realize that I had grabbed air with the front.  You how that ends.  Even so, you have a crazy amount of time to mess up, fix up and you are still maching. 

This is a keeper.  I am really stoked to see this line develop.  I will be first in line if they do do smaller sizes. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 28, 2020, 03:41:28 PM
So whatís the difference you feel between shim, no shim and 390?

I havenít done any experiments. I rode Evanís setup (short fuse, 420 w/shim) and Nickís setup (ultra short fuse, 370 tail). Evans was magic. Been riding it his way ever since.

BTW....burr

today here...on the larger HPS wing

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIJf4RgD9Au/?igshid=fvi12gqaqwru


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on November 29, 2020, 01:57:04 AM
Nice image, D.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 29, 2020, 03:10:03 AM
Beauty Dwight!

So whatís the difference you feel between shim, no shim and 390?

I havenít done any experiments. I rode Evanís setup (short fuse, 420 w/shim) and Nickís setup (ultra short fuse, 370 tail). Evans was magic. Been riding it his way ever since.

With the 420 and shim I had to really stay on the front foot and move my rear foot closer than I like it.  It still felt right on the edge there.  I thought about sliding the mast back but it was cold and I decided to try no shim instead.  That leveled it out, smoothed it out and let me grab my usual stance (which is already pretty narrow now).  This one mast position works great for me with the 760 (standard fuselage) and 860 (short fuselage) so I like the idea of just slapping a prebuilt airplane (front, fuse and tail) on and going. 

Yesterday was a much higher quality day than the previous sessions, so I am not sure that it is fair to compare the 390 to the 420 based on that.  The river was edge to edge good and I was powered going into everything.  The channel was a super steady 28 and it was 18 to 25 by my launch.  I though I had noticed a little resistance to turns with the 420 on the junkier days but there was no hint of that yesterday with the 390.  Just really nice arcs.  I am not sure if the 390 has more native down angle than the 420.  It might, so it is possible that I am getting some of the shim effect with that one.  I am going to check that today just out of interest.  It definitely extends the foil base by 2 cm, so there is that as well. 

These are just details and early stream of consciousness thoughts after a few sessions.  I am not holding any of this as etched in stone.  I do know for sure that this is extremely cool stuff that is already delivering some sweet new sensations.

Today is supposed to be strong easterlies (it has been picking up all night) mid 40's and sunny.  Better bring the wetsuit in to dry.  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 29, 2020, 06:10:08 AM
Good to compare notes Admin.

Iíll give some of my first impressions. First impressions are good to hear, because once I dial in, it becomes the norm, and I donít notice little details anymore.

I ride 1/2Ē back in the tracks from my Armstrong setting. Back to where I was before, when riding Axis. Worthless bit of info for you, but maybe good for others.

Back when I was riding the 900 and 1000 with the 390 tail, I was wanting a smaller version of the 390 on windier days. The 390 was magic, but I topped out itís limit.

Iím not feeling the 420 top out. Itís what I wanted way back then.

When I rode the bigger HPS paired with the 370 tail, it felt very draggy compared to the 420. It had the ultra short fuse on that setup. The ride was doing what I call hobby horsing. The up/down pulses coming from too much lift, going super fast, picking up too much energy, from the chopping surface. Going right back out in the same conditions with the short fuse, and 420, was a night and day different experience. No drag, fast, smooth, like a completely different foil.

On the final day of the demo, a rain storm killed the wind, when the first trickle of wind returned, I grabbed my 6m Ensis and the bigger HPS/short fuse/420 and went for a ďtryĒ. I was so lit, Jacky, a local kid, and Evan followed me out. Wind felt like it was blowing high teens the whole time. Meanwhile, I see all three people who followed me out there, standing still in no wind. At first I avoid sailing to where they are. Then I think, maybe Iím generating so much apparent wind, itís not blowing high teens anywhere out here. I jibe around the three of them and keep going. I ride all around and jibe several more times around them, still standing still. Still feeling like itís blowing high teens to me. Mind blown. 1460 sq cm is now my biggest foil for the lightest of days. If you have the skill to get a thin foil on foil, the wind is going to feel ďveryĒ windy once up. Crazy times.

A few days later, Iím on the 980, wind is 20 to 30, zooming upwind and wave riding downwind. Holding onto the 4.5 Ensis at the limit. Best day ever... Iím thinking. When we all gather on the beach after the session, people are talking about it being the worst day ever. 980 makes everything better.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 29, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
Hobby horsing is a great way to put it.  I know that feeling exactly.  The 420 with a shim wasn't quite there but it was pulsing at speed and it just felt like it might push through (but never did).  Without the shim that was gone entirely, and yes, very fast.  I haven't tried to measure anything yet but I am sensing that this is the lowest angle difference that I have ridden.  I am not sure yet if the 390 felt any slower.  My first reaction was no, but the day was so much better that it is hard to separate that.  I can say this for sure, I am having zero complaints about either speed or glide.  Both are remarkable. 

At almost a meter wide I am offsetting my stance more.  It has been a few months since I have ridden anything wider than the 860 and I am relaxing into that extra width and enjoying it.  It adds a lot of lateral stability. 

The 1010 ended up feeling like too much wing for me and because of that I could never press it, so it wasn't that quick for me either.  I also struggled to turn it.  The 860 turns great, gets up really easily but isn't as quick as the 760.  The 760 is fast and turns great but it is a full concentration wing.  This one combines a lot of the best features of those wings.  I am guessing that a lot of that is coming from the new thin head and low angles. 

I completely agree with what you wrote about this being the season where we get our dream kits.  This one is an amazing start.  And there I was thinking that I was content and that this was going to be  a cheap year :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 29, 2020, 07:19:44 AM
I like the lateral stability. Great for old man foot shuffles on the deck.

When i used to bitch about foils not turning like I wanted, it was never about the speed of roll rate. It was always about loss of speed through a turn, and not being predictable in roll rate.

The HPS solves all that in spades. Iím coming out of jibes with so much speed, Iíve had to change my wind wing handling and break bad habits. If I get sloppy with the wind wing, it will get slammed against my body by the extreme speed going though the jibe.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 29, 2020, 07:34:25 AM
Iím coming out of jibes with so much speed, Iíve had to change my wind wing handling and break bad habits. If I get sloppy with the wind wing, it will get slammed against my body by the extreme speed going though the jibe.

Hah! I am having that exact same experience. I call that getting wallpapered and it was happening to me a lot on my 5 when I was operating on apparent wind.  Crazy.  How bout this one.  Your jibe is done, the wing is back in both hands, you are still facing downwind a little and you are going too fast to crank it back upwind.  I mean, we get used to the wing slowing down some and when it doesn't, well that's new.  That is similar to what I was trying to describe on about this foil on a Gorge swell.  Ridiculous speed and carry.  I need to learn to manage that :).   These are 1st world 980 problems
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on November 29, 2020, 08:06:31 AM
Iím coming out of jibes with so much speed, Iíve had to change my wind wing handling and break bad habits. If I get sloppy with the wind wing, it will get slammed against my body by the extreme speed going though the jibe.

  I call that getting wallpapered and it was happening to me a lot on my 5 when I was operating on apparent wind.  Crazy.  How bout this one.  Your jibe is done, the wing is back in both hands, you are still facing downwind a little and you are going too fast to crank it back upwind.  I mean, we get used to the wing slowing down some and when it doesn't, well that's new.  That is similar to what I was trying to describe on about this foil on a Gorge swell.  Ridiculous speed and carry.  I need to learn to manage that :).   These are 1st world 980 problems.

In kiting we call that the "gift wrap". It would happened to someone other than the pilot and  usually didn't end well. In winging can be turned into a fun maneuver ie, Starfish. I am really enjoying the comparative lack of danger in winging vs kiting. I don't miss all that string everywhere. And the access to rocky, weird launches!!! No problem.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 29, 2020, 08:18:27 AM
Iíd like to see Axis put the name on the foil. HPS-980

This is a very special class of wing. The lineup can get confusing, with so many wings that look alike to the average person, but are actually very different.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: BayAreaKite on November 29, 2020, 01:17:15 PM
https://youtu.be/PLbul8IqEZA

Good video with real-world testing of thick vs. thin axis masts. As expected, doesn't make a difference. In fact, he even claims the thicker mast is faster due to higher stiffness = more energy transfer to the wings. This aligns with everyone's feedback re: Project Cedrus as well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 29, 2020, 11:57:47 PM
he even claims the thicker mast is faster due to higher stiffness = more energy transfer to the wings.

All of this guys videos are well done but it's just one user experience using a foil in a way that specifically rewards mast stiffness. Of course there's more drag from a 19mm mast vs a 16mm vs a 14mm. It's just insignificant amongst all the other drag in the system and everything else going on while foiling. There actually was a very slight edge to the 16mm in the video overlay but it's too small to say it was the mast (I demand a recount!!!). I'd probably never notice the difference.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on November 30, 2020, 01:18:09 AM
At slow speeds like with pumping he might notice less difference.  At higher speeds (like with winging) it is super apparent.  It is also super apparent under wing power when you are taking off.  This isn't a small difference.   

Have a look at the Nasa calculator linked below.  Make no changes to the calculator yet (leave it as a symmetrical foil like an Axis aluminum mast).  Click the flight button and change it to water and leave the speed at 5. Now go to shape and increase the foil thickness and watch the drag rise.   Now reset and increase the speed from 5 to say 17 mph and watch the drag. 

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/foil3.html
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on November 30, 2020, 03:35:52 AM
So do any of you industry guys have any idea when the 1050 will be available?

Diese neuen Wings sind speziell fŁr die Black Line Fuselage:
High Performance Speed Wings
Front Wing 1050 - HPS - Carbon 1050mm x 170mm / High Aspect (Dwight says 1460 cm2)
Front Wing 980 - HPS - Carbon 980mm x 160mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 930 - HPS - Carbon 930mm x 155mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 880 - HPS - Carbon 880mm x 150mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 700 - HPS - Carbon 700mm x 160mm / High Aspect
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 30, 2020, 06:16:52 AM
2 months on the 1050 if memory is correct. Long time on the others.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 30, 2020, 06:20:20 AM
At slow speeds like with pumping he might notice less difference.  At higher speeds (like with winging) it is super apparent.  It is also super apparent under wing power when you are taking off.  This isn't a small difference.   

Have a look at the Nasa calculator linked below.  Make no changes to the calculator yet (leave it as a symmetrical foil like an Axis aluminum mast).  Click the flight button and change it to water and leave the speed at 5. Now go to shape and increase the foil thickness and watch the drag rise.   Now reset and increase the speed from 5 to say 17 mph and watch the drag. 

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/foil3.html

Good info. This is why Iím going all carbon. My winging to SUP ratio is 90/10, so speed gains matter most to me.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 01, 2020, 12:52:52 PM
Finding some unexpected benefits to the HPS wings.

The ultra low drag gives more paddling speed when SUPing.

It also lets the wing board accelerate faster when sheeting in, on the surface.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 02, 2020, 04:14:00 AM
It also lets the wing board accelerate faster when sheeting in, on the surface.

I am with you.  This is super noticeable.  960 mast and 980 wing is my lowest resistance setup on water so far.   I am finding it really quick to break free.  I have read some early reviews saying that it was difficult to get airborne (similar to the 900).  I am not finding that at all.  It is more in line with the 860 in that regard (with a wing).  For winging, I am thinking that this will be a full sized wing for guys at 160 to 180 and a normal wing for 190 to 210.  Either way it seems like it has a really broad range.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 02, 2020, 07:33:00 AM
I agree Admin....nothing like the 900. Much better low end.

Itís all technique, and itís not hard to learn the technique for this foil. Much easier to master than the 900 and 1000.

Itís possible a prone foiler might have different opinions. Weíve got a wing to sheet in and make easy speed.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 02, 2020, 04:08:50 PM
A 3mm difference in thickness in a symmetrical foil mast = noticeable difference in drag?? I'm not buying that without someone sticking the thing in a test tank. 3mm is a little over 0.1 inches. Here we have this goofy apparatus with all the streamlining of a rooftop TV antenna being dragged through the water. Vibrating, scratched up, slightly bent (has to be, even if it's brand new), unsophisticated fit and finish regardless of the manufacturer. The flow isn't likely to be separating. Claiming to feel the difference is like curing cancer with a round of thoughts and prayers. It's in your head.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 02, 2020, 05:19:22 PM
First off, why would you possibly have a scratch on your mast?  :)

3mm is a 16% of 19 mm mast thickness and it is 3 mm that carries over the meter length of the mast (OK, the carbon masts do taper but..).  The NASA link above gives the #'s.  You can set it for water and check it at any winging speed that you want to check.  It will give you the resulting drag.  Increase or reduce the thickness by our 16% and check the results.  it is very noticeable. 

Smooch

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 02, 2020, 05:23:52 PM
What about masts that pee like a fire hose, sucking water half way up the shaft, while other masts are silent with zero peeing.

Drag?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 03, 2020, 01:15:57 AM
What about masts that pee like a fire hose, sucking water half way up the shaft, while other masts are silent with zero peeing.

Drag?

It "appears" to be worse when the mast angle to the water is more acute on the TE but it's there pretty much all the time on the Axis alu masts. This guy maxes out at about 12mph though. Started looking around and I see it on most brands, can't be a good thing. Here's a good view of it starting at about 1:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLbul8IqEZA

I like Bill's "all the streamlining of a rooftop TV antenna being dragged through the water" analogy though  ;D

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 03, 2020, 03:55:03 AM
This is a TV antenna?  Nah, this is as streamlined as it gets.  The connections are beautiful. 

Also, if 3mm is no big deal then just add 3mm.  We will all have chubby 22 mm masts and we can have a stiffy party.  Wait, that doesn't sound good on any level.

Interestingly (not for masts but just generally), if you play with the NASA calculator linked above you can see that increasing thickness by the 16% we have been talking about causes a significantly greater drag increase than increasing the angle of the same foil by 1 degree.  These new Black fuses allow for both thinner foils and lower angles so we are noticing that goodness as well. 

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/2006/7439/products/axis-foils-carbon-mast-no-size-on-product_1024x1024@2x.png?v=1582661585)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 03, 2020, 05:13:53 AM

..........

I ride 1/2Ē back in the tracks from my Armstrong setting.



.......

Would you say the Axis likes a bit more front foot pressure compared to the Armstrong or about the same?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 03, 2020, 05:58:39 AM

..........

I ride 1/2Ē back in the tracks from my Armstrong setting.



.......

Would you say the Axis likes a bit more front foot pressure compared to the Armstrong or about the same?

I donít ride any foils with front or rear foot pressure. I tune for perfect balance. If a company doesnít make the parts to reach this level of tune, I dump it. Talking about you HA Lift
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 03, 2020, 07:26:13 AM
It's a beautiful piece of kit Admin, it took some doing to not buy your 76mm (80's my minimum). I'll probably buy an 86cm eventually but because I have a carbon fetish, not so much for reduced drag. Interestingly enough, the Axis 96cm carbon mast pees off the trailing edge roughly the same amount as the alu version(s). Can't say how that correlates with drag but logic dictates... 
Here it is after polishing off a few liters of German pilsner  ;D

https://gleiten.tv/index.php/video/action/view/v/3617/page/497/

 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 03, 2020, 07:33:17 AM
He had me at Shcleudlefon Axis.  :)

It think you will appreciate the reduced drag as well.  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that mast drag is the only issue.  Drag is death by 1000 cuts.  Reducing everywhere you can makes sense.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 03, 2020, 07:50:49 AM
I donít ride any foils with front or rear foot pressure. I tune for perfect balance. If a company doesnít make the parts to reach this level of tune, I dump it. Talking about you HA Lift

I tried the 390 tail yesterday with the shim.  It has been a while since I swam that much.  I couldn't do anything.  Hobby horsing and a complete kookfest.  That combo is right out for me.  It was damn cold and not a great day to be counting salmon.  I drove home in my suit :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 03, 2020, 08:39:20 AM
I feel the 390 rear is great if you're a heavy rear foot rider. If you're more balanced and don't pump the board much then the flat wings like 460/420 and if you're more front foot pressure and pump the board a lot then the 340/370/400 rears work best. Just an observation I've seen with different riders and their stances when I try other people's set ups. Now throw in shimming and it's a whole different can of worms.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2020, 08:45:13 AM
This is a TV antenna?  Nah, this is as streamlined as it gets.  The connections are beautiful. 

Also, if 3mm is no big deal then just add 3mm.  We will all have chubby 22 mm masts and we can have a stiffy party.  Wait, that doesn't sound good on any level.

Interestingly (not for masts but just generally), if you play with the NASA calculator linked above you can see that increasing thickness by the 16% we have been talking about causes a significantly greater drag increase than increasing the angle of the same foil by 1 degree.  These new Black fuses allow for both thinner foils and lower angles so we are noticing that goodness as well. 

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0076/2006/7439/products/axis-foils-carbon-mast-no-size-on-product_1024x1024@2x.png?v=1582661585)

I'd buy that the mast to plate/fuselage connections are draggy and the carbon mast improves that substantially. The board to mast connection only matter when you aren't up on the foil and that's all low speed stuff. But even as pretty as the general design of Axis foil systems are, it's going to have a lot of drag from imperfect connections. When we're up on foil the mast is mostly out of the water. Even if it weren't the drag from the wings and fuselage are huge. It's lifting at least 200 pounds (unless it's Chan or a little kid). Lift and drag are directly related and as impossible to improve beyond that fundamental relationship as entropy in a heat engine. I'll play with the NASA toy, but ten or so inches of mast drag has to be a fart in a hurricane unless the mast is thick enough to separate flow as the cross section converges.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 03, 2020, 08:56:03 AM
For some reason, axis likes to set the incidence angle at about five degrees or more. That inevitably will require front foot pressure. That's five degrees of up elevator. Shimming that down to something between 2 and three degrees means you'll need to work a bit to get off the water, but once you're up you won't hobby-horse.

If you're moving the foil on the board and you don't have footstraps I have to wonder why. It won't eliminate the up elevator, it just lets you stand in your usual spot instead of shuffling forward. If you don't want to move your straps or change the foot position you're used to then sure, that's how to do it. Or you can shim down the incidence angle, in which case you'll have to move your feet back or move the foil forward.

I think the main reason a lot of foilers can't move their front foot is incidence angle. the constant front foot pressure required to counter the up elevator means you can't move your front foot until you move your rear foot forward, and that pitches the foil down. The more relaxed position with feet closer together will help, but tuning the foil to the minimum incidence angle needed for a stable ride helps more.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 03, 2020, 09:08:23 AM
Itís more complex than just moving around and shimming stuff.

You need perfection (matching low drag wings) to have equal foot pressure throughout the foils speed range.

Itís easy to get equal pressure for part of itís range. Thatís not good enough for me.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on December 03, 2020, 09:09:22 AM
I donít ride any foils with front or rear foot pressure. I tune for perfect balance. If a company doesnít make the parts to reach this level of tune, I dump it. Talking about you HA Lift

I'm assuming that you find the "perfect" balance point for the average wind conditions you're riding in and shift your weight either slightly forward in gusts and slightly aft in lulls.  In other words, you find the Axis foils easier to tune for that initial "perfect" balance point for steady winds and then you compensate as needed for gusts and lulls as your speed changes (which changes lift)?

I've never been able to obtain "perfect" balance with a foil for the variable wind conditions in which I wind foil and wing foil.  I'm unfortunately having to constantly compensate to changing wind conditions by shifting my weight forward or aft -- sometimes a little and sometimes quite a bit.  If Axis foils can be "perfectly" balanced for variable winds then it's time for me to change foils!

How hydrofoils work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX-r0COL-xA
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 03, 2020, 09:54:54 AM
You can find perfection. The HPS with 420 tail matches with 980 and 1050 perfectly throughout the speed range. I had similar perfect balance with my Armstrong throughout its speed range. But Armstrong could not match the HPS in glide, pump, or speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on December 03, 2020, 10:19:29 AM
Ok so Iíve pulled the trigger on the 980. What stabilisers do I need to get for my choppy conditions? Iím 76kg, the 390 gap or 420/400? Max speed isnít my priority, control and glide is.

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 03, 2020, 10:48:30 AM
I feel the 390 rear is great if you're a heavy rear foot rider. If you're more balanced and don't pump the board much then the flat wings like 460/420 and if you're more front foot pressure and pump the board a lot then the 340/370/400 rears work best. Just an observation I've seen with different riders and their stances when I try other people's set ups. Now throw in shimming and it's a whole different can of worms.

Hey Nick,

Are you riding with a shim?  So far my favorite is the 390 with no shim and 420 with no shim.  Those both feel really good (I still need to check out the 420 on a decent day).  It was little off with the 420 and a shim and uncomfortable with the 390 and shim.  I used to have too wide a stance.  I was heavy on the rear foot at that point.  Late summer that rear foot started to feel comfortable further forward and it helped balance me out a lot.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 03, 2020, 11:14:03 AM
I'm on the 370 rear with shim using the ultra short fuselage. I find a lot of times I have to slow down due to the different swells and wind chop and without the shim I wasn't feeling stable at slow speeds. I need to try it on the short fuselage but I've been on the 1050 and loving it so much that is hard to switch foils with the winds I'm having right now.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 03, 2020, 01:24:08 PM
Ok so Iíve pulled the trigger on the 980. What stabilisers do I need to get for my choppy conditions? Iím 76kg, the 390 gap or 420/400? Max speed isnít my priority, control and glide is.

Mike

420

Think about what makes the HPS so special. LOW DRAG. Itís the key to making performance. The 420 is the lowest drag tail.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on December 04, 2020, 09:47:08 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6PtKddWfNA
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 04, 2020, 10:47:19 AM
This session is going great. *Checks watch* Oh man I'm gonna be late for work, let's get going! *Checks watch* If I keep this up I can just make it to work on time! 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 04, 2020, 11:57:10 AM
Itís more complex than just moving around and shimming stuff.

You need perfection (matching low drag wings) to have equal foot pressure throughout the foils speed range.

Itís easy to get equal pressure for part of itís range. Thatís not good enough for me.

That makes great sense. I've been fairly lax about trying to match stab with wing. I've just been fiddling with shims. But it's obvious to me that getting front foot pressure at the lowest level without going unstable (been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt) makes a lot of other stuff easier and more predictable.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 08, 2020, 01:15:38 AM
A couple of questions for all the Axis users here:

Mast placement on tracks compared to other brands:  about the same, more forward, more back or depends.

Can you get a custom carbon mast length or can their 96 be cut down a bit?

How much maintenance do you have to really do to keep components from seizing?

Thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 08, 2020, 07:27:37 AM
Compared to lift and signature way further back. I rode my 900 very near the back of my tracks.

No custom carbon masts from axis. Project cedros makes some.

Not much maintenance. I had an axis setup from March til November. Put it away wet in my car. Never rinsed it with fresh water after a session. I put some tef gel on it the very first time I put it together. After that I never took the mast and top plate off. I do take the fuse off the mast every time. I also loosened the front wing to make sure any water drained out. I changed the tail wing twice in that whole time otherwise never touched the screws. None of my screws ever seized up. Your mileage may vary.

You should probably loosen the screws every so often.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 08, 2020, 07:43:47 AM
You can't shorten the carbon mast without a lot of work that would approximate building a mast. the Aluminum masts are easy to shorten, I did one at SanO on the tailgate of my truck. I don't do prone, have plenty of room to move on my board, and don't really use the single strap I just recently remounted (I'm not sure why I did that) so I just shove the plate all the way forward.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 08, 2020, 08:00:19 AM
Probably good to point out that the Axis carbon and Axis aluminum masts position differently to one another.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 08, 2020, 08:09:38 AM
Thanks for all the responses.  I actually see somewhere on their busy website that they will have a couple more carbon mast sizes in the future.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on December 08, 2020, 10:39:07 AM
A couple of questions for all the Axis users here:

Mast placement on tracks compared to other brands:  about the same, more forward, more back or depends.
When running new gear, I don't measure off the mast placement to start, but rather the leading edge of the front wing. That said, I ended up riding my Axis wings in approximately the same position as I did my GF wings (give or take an 1/8 to 3/8 of an inch or so).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 08, 2020, 02:36:31 PM
GoFoil likes to be at the back of the tracks too from the pictures I see on instagram.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 10, 2020, 01:22:38 AM
Couple more days on the 980 now.  Yesterday was a rangey (not gusty, though) 4.2 day.  High 40's was really nice.  I had on the 420 with no shim and that feels pretty sweet as well.  I am getting more comfortable with the turn it wants.  This foil continues to shock me at how it accelerates and glides.  So cool.  I did a strong 3.5 session a few days ago (high 30's-ouch) and back to backed it with the 760 to remember that one.  That is an amazing foil.  My holiday fasting is working and I am down to 172 now.  I like the 760 more in higher wind for foiling in place.  The 980 is a little big for me for that.  I think if I were going downwind that would change because the 980 feels unreal when its on a runner.  This is one of those times when area is a little misleading.  This is pretty big foil and it takes pretty significant front foot for me when it is howling.  I feel like this is going to be the money wing for bigger dudes and I can see my future wings...  This is going to be an amazing year for foils.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 10, 2020, 03:01:03 AM
Think about this for a moment. 730, 430, and 350 sq cm is the standard PWA windsurf racing size  ;D With triple the gear weight we current have.

The HPS series makes me think this is possible for us. But not for everyone. Need the appropriate board and wind wing to go with it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CIi2wCDLK1T/?igshid=1adcnmunip2qv
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: jondrums on December 10, 2020, 11:37:20 AM
yeah, and riding huge windsurfing sails with much more refined aerodynamic properties versus these giant inflatable leading edges.  The windsurfing racers have massive thrust on tap to get to higher speeds.  I can't see the current form of wind-wings supporting the same kind of top speeds we see in windsurf foiling or sailboat foiling
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: jondrums on December 10, 2020, 11:38:59 AM
Kai did a video trying to reach high speeds using a crazy non-inflatable wing.  But it didn't look to me like a very efficient airfoil.  It would be interesting to see what kind of wing people come up once we start seeing development class racing on wing-foiling
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on December 12, 2020, 08:49:00 AM
Finally got a session in on the 980!  Moon Buddy 80L, 83cm mast, 460 tail, ultra short black fuse, SS V2 4.4m, 85Kg, mast all the way back, no shim. Snowing, 5-30mph, drysuit, no problem. This foil won't fly until my board is moving a bit faster than what I am used to. There is a weird moment where I try to pump up and it does a horrible continuous stall freak out thing. I think the recommended -1% shim would probably mitigate this. Once I cross over that board speed needed, it comes right up. When flying, the 980 is the chit! I am coming off riding the 1150 and 1010 lately. So I am balls deep into wide HA wings. The most notable character is that I can operate this wing with very slight control inputs from my feet/ankles even toes. My stance became more centerline than I was riding with the other bigger wings. All of the dimensions roll pitch yah, are way more sensitive to inputs. This is not a beginner foil for that reason, but I never suspected it would be. I have been skateboarding a lot of bowls lately and am able to correlate the turning sensitivity to that of skating. It is instant feedback, no delay. This is very exciting! I haven't felt a foil this ripping, loose and sensitive since kiting on the SS Apollo 60(shrunken version of the Moses 633). My winging career, like many of you, has been mostly giant, slowish foils. This is kitefoiling without the kite. Mission accomplished! I was able to slash waves(lake chop) way faster and effortless. The glide is redonk. The wingding felt so light in my hands due to this. Going straight upwind was easier than normal, without feeling loaded up. Pumping cadence seemed to be slower than the 1150/1010. It felt as though it wanted to glide longer in between pumps. This will be greatly rewarding as I dial it in more. I have a 105cm mast on order and think that the extra altitude will be a huge advantage to the gliding. Start high and glide the foil down deeper slowly then pump back up to full height and repeat. I am stoked to see what the New York Foilguy finds out about the gliding of the 980. The speed was better than the 1010 but I quickly found the max. It seemed that bearing off wind kind of 45% that it went fastest. Anyways, stoked to be experiencing  wingfoiling development first hand instead of just reading about it. If you are an Axis guy or gal and on the fence about investing in the Black Series, my advice is like Laird said "There's only two things happening in life, either you're going down or you're going up."
Send It!!!!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2020, 10:00:37 AM
Cool review, thanks, though you probably just cost me a couple of thousand bux.

the fast than usual thing is what I feel on the 860 at my weight, including the long stall thing when I'm not going fast enough and try to get up anyway. Sometimes I still make it work by pushing it over if it got high enough, but mostly I just splash down tail first. I tried taking my 2-degree shim out of the front and it was worse.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on December 12, 2020, 10:32:48 AM
Finally got a session in on the 980!  Moon Buddy 80L, 83cm mast, 460 tail, ultra short black fuse, SS V2 4.4m, 85Kg, mast all the way back, no shim. Snowing, 5-30mph, drysuit, no problem. This foil won't fly until my board is moving a bit faster than what I am used to. There is a weird moment where I try to pump up and it does a horrible continuous stall freak out thing. I think the recommended -1% shim would probably mitigate this. Once I cross over that board speed needed, it comes right up. When flying, the 980 is the chit! I am coming off riding the 1150 and 1010 lately. So I am balls deep into wide HA wings. The most notable character is that I can operate this wing with very slight control inputs from my feet/ankles even toes. My stance became more centerline than I was riding with the other bigger wings. All of the dimensions roll pitch yah, are way more sensitive to inputs. This is not a beginner foil for that reason, but I never suspected it would be. I have been skateboarding a lot of bowls lately and am able to correlate the turning sensitivity to that of skating. It is instant feedback, no delay. This is very exciting! I haven't felt a foil this ripping, loose and sensitive since kiting on the SS Apollo 60(shrunken version of the Moses 633). My winging career, like many of you, has been mostly giant, slowish foils. This is kitefoiling without the kite. Mission accomplished! I was able to slash waves(lake chop) way faster and effortless. The glide is redonk. The wingding felt so light in my hands due to this. Going straight upwind was easier than normal, without feeling loaded up. Pumping cadence seemed to be slower than the 1150/1010. It felt as though it wanted to glide longer in between pumps. This will be greatly rewarding as I dial it in more. I have a 105cm mast on order and think that the extra altitude will be a huge advantage to the gliding. Start high and glide the foil down deeper slowly then pump back up to full height and repeat. I am stoked to see what the New York Foilguy finds out about the gliding of the 980. The speed was better than the 1010 but I quickly found the max. It seemed that bearing off wind kind of 45% that it went fastest. Anyways, stoked to be experiencing  wingfoiling development first hand instead of just reading about it. If you are an Axis guy or gal and on the fence about investing in the Black Series, my advice is like Laird said "There's only two things happening in life, either you're going down or you're going up."
Send It!!!!!!

Nice review of 980. Sounds really interesting. Would be interesting to see FoilingNY test 980 head to head with some of the other Axis wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 12, 2020, 12:47:31 PM
The ideal board for the HPS-980 foil, will have a straight tail. No bevel at the tail. This gives just a bit more speed and acceleration on lift off, at the slight expense of pumping freedom.

It improves the overall range of these HPS foils.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 17, 2020, 05:30:28 PM
Today....testing Axis foils with Evan and Jacky in paradise. Jacky got to be the first person in the world to test one foil. Not even the guys in New Zealand have one. Jacky was stoked. Super fun day. Donít bother messaging me, all secret stuff for now.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50731695802_8bdc753331_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 17, 2020, 11:55:56 PM
Jacky got to be the first person in the world to test one foil.

So its true, Once you go black...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 18, 2020, 03:34:46 AM
Jacky got to be the first person in the world to test one foil.

So its true, Once you go black...

Yes, I declined the offer to test red prototypes.  ;D

Others can do that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 18, 2020, 03:39:58 PM
Jacky took the tail shim out for the first time today. Riding the 3.5m and 980 in chest high surf. Cranking jibes on the wave face and riding away toe side, zero breaches. She also broke her all time highest speed on a foil. Sheís ecstatic tonight.

Fast foils open a whole new world.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Wave Chaser on December 18, 2020, 05:15:56 PM
Assuming Jacky is a lightweight, what is the wind range / sweet spot for the 3.5 Ensis wing for her?

Also, tail shim out means.....don't have to worry about putting extra weight on the front foot as speed increases?

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 18, 2020, 05:24:00 PM
Assuming Jacky is a lightweight, what is the wind range / sweet spot for the 3.5 Ensis wing for her?

Also, tail shim out means.....don't have to worry about putting extra weight on the front foot as speed increases?

She is 116 lbs. No tail shim means no over foiling at her weight. The HPS makes big lift with speed. 3.5m sweet spot is probably 15-24 mph. She is still figuring that out.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 18, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
It was blowing 15-16 mph today and I was on the 980 with a 3.5 ensis. I'm about 170 lbs, so the black series has some amazing range per size.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 18, 2020, 09:57:53 PM
Thatís our typical wind out here. Would you recommend that small an ensis? Or do I go 5.2 just to be safe. Only a couple sessions under my belt.

I found a deal on a 6í0Ē f one wing board and am trying to talk myself out of it. Haha.

I realize 6í0Ē is big and Iíll want to downsize. Will it not having foot straps be the nail in the coffin? I want to learn how to downwind in Los Angeles county.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 19, 2020, 01:40:59 AM
Also, tail shim out means.....don't have to worry about putting extra weight on the front foot as speed increases?

I am still having to keep the 980 a little more front footed even with the  shim out.  That may be a relative thing to what you are coming from and for sure your weight.  With that foot pressured though it translates into speed and acceleration which is really what this foil is about.  I have to stay on that foot jibing as well to maintain that incredible glide.  I have tried moving it around and with two tails and both with and without shims and I think I have the best combo for me now. This one is outrageous in light wind but I am thinking that the next size down will be the money wing for 170, 175 guys in moderate to stronger winds.   

That 15 to 16 MPH that Nick mentioned for the Ensis 3.5 sounds sweet.  I am usually going for the 3.5 Swing at 18  MPH.  That had been my favorite wing and my most used wing by a lot,  It would be awesome if the Ensis 3.5 could add even a little more to the low side on that one.  I'm pissed at myself for missing a good one a couple days back.  I was running errands when it looked sweet and then the weather went nuts.  Arghhh!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dontsink on December 19, 2020, 05:40:31 AM
15mph=13kt
With a 3.5?

I must be doing something wrong.

I must be doing everything wrong :)

Not saying i don't believe it mind you, but it is kind of surprising.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 19, 2020, 06:15:41 AM
Thatís our typical wind out here. Would you recommend that small an ensis? Or do I go 5.2 just to be safe. Only a couple sessions under my belt.

I found a deal on a 6í0Ē f one wing board and am trying to talk myself out of it. Haha.

I realize 6í0Ē is big and Iíll want to downsize. Will it not having foot straps be the nail in the coffin? I want to learn how to downwind in Los Angeles county.

I'd hold off on the 6' board and when it comes to the ensis wings, one can't buy only one. Myself as well as Dwight and several others I know tried the 5.2 and then ordered a quiver immediately getting off the water.

For shits and giggles I took the 1050 with the 2.5 out yesterday also and a little struggle to get on foil but once up, I was powered. The 3.5 replaced the 4.2 F1 for me and if I was going to get just one wing from them, the 4.5. I think it has the power of the 6 F1 almost.
I would sup foil 1150 until it was too much wind then jump to a 6 F1, so I do the same now but I'm jumping to a 4.5. ensis. The combo low end of the 1150 pairs great with the ensis wings
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 22, 2020, 09:42:14 AM
So now that this is all out there...that 890 and 810 are the ones that have really had me stoked.  He didn't mention it in the video but these two wings are part of a new Broad Spectrum Carve series where the 700, 980 and 1050 are part of the High Performance Speed Series.  The BSC wings sound awesome to me for winging!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83R9ngJtoUA&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 22, 2020, 11:48:16 AM
Does the 700 look like an armstrong 1050?

The 810 isn't comparable to the current 910 right?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 22, 2020, 12:00:19 PM
That's right.  I think the categories are really helpful.

There are the two new series (Broad Spectrum Carve and High Performance Speed) and the previous series as well:

910, 1010, 1150 etc. are part of a series called "Pump and Glide".

860,  760, 660, "Performance Surf"

900 and 1000, "Original Carve"

1020, 920 ect., "Original All Around"

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2020, 05:51:48 AM
This right here is why the Axis HPS is a big deal. Itís not about racing, itís about boosting big air. The faster you can ride, the higher you can boost. Pointing high on a foil helps load up for the boost. Foils and wind wings matter.

Nick has the fast upwind Ensis, matched to the HPS, with a special board designed to work specifically with the HPS foils.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJJCfWvrDvk/?igshid=zu27svc71r9
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 23, 2020, 12:38:59 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6PtKddWfNA

Hi, that's me in the video  8)

Finally managed to register so I can share my thoughts.

I tried the 980 with the 390 stab and ultra short fuse.

I totally agree with the hobby horsing pulses happening. It's a bit annoying but I guess you'll get used to it.

I've been advised that the short fuselage would help make it less twitchy but I do enjoy the looseness of the ultra short since it doesn't turn great compared to my 1000.

I'm 76kg and I did find the 980 was a bit too lifty in over 20kn on the wing. So I'm wondering whether to wait for a smaller HPS such as the 880.
I had a blast with the 980 in light winds though.  8) so much speed and GLIDE.

Do you think the HPS needs a 2 wing foil quiver or will the 980 be fine for all conditions?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2020, 12:57:43 PM
sydney.winger

You have to remove the drag and lift coming from the stab. 390 is too draggy. It needs the 420. Without shim for you. Even the 370 is too much drag.

The 980 is too fast for all the current tails, except the 420. We probably need a chopped 420.

Been thinking about reaching out to Kane for a custom tail.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 23, 2020, 01:35:33 PM


I tried the 980 with the 390 stab and ultra short fuse.

I totally agree with the hobby horsing pulses happening. It's a bit annoying but I guess you'll get used to it.

I've been advised that the short fuselage would help make it less twitchy but I do enjoy the looseness of the ultra short since it doesn't turn great compared to my 1000.

I'm 76kg and I did find the 980 was a bit too lifty in over 20kn on the wing. So I'm wondering whether to wait for a smaller HPS such as the 880.
I had a blast with the 980 in light winds though.  8) so much speed and GLIDE.

Do you think the HPS needs a 2 wing foil quiver or will the 980 be fine for all conditions?

Hi Sydney,

Welcome to the Zone! 

I am 78 kg, and I am really enjoying the 980.  For me the best combo is with the 390 and no shim.  I was getting that pulsing with the shim in.  Without the shim it smoothed out (and sped up).  I do think this is a quiver wing at our size or smaller.  I am thinking the 930 is going to hit it for our sizes in this HPS line.  It will be interesting to see if we need the shim with that one.  I hope not.  The slick feeling amplifies without the shim.  I am also super stoked for the BSC Wings on the Black Fuselage.  If they can take the versatility of the existing 860 and speed it up to 760 levels...Oh yeah!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2020, 02:01:12 PM
The 420 is 7mm thick with a 60mm chord.

The older tails are chunky monkeys. 10-11mm thick. 80mm chord on the 390.

That spells drag.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 23, 2020, 02:30:27 PM


I tried the 980 with the 390 stab and ultra short fuse.

I totally agree with the hobby horsing pulses happening. It's a bit annoying but I guess you'll get used to it.

I've been advised that the short fuselage would help make it less twitchy but I do enjoy the looseness of the ultra short since it doesn't turn great compared to my 1000.

I'm 76kg and I did find the 980 was a bit too lifty in over 20kn on the wing. So I'm wondering whether to wait for a smaller HPS such as the 880.
I had a blast with the 980 in light winds though.  8) so much speed and GLIDE.

Do you think the HPS needs a 2 wing foil quiver or will the 980 be fine for all conditions?

Hi Sydney,

Welcome to the Zone! 

I am 78 kg, and I am really enjoying the 980.  For me the best combo is with the 390 and no shim.  I was getting that pulsing with the shim in.  Without the shim it smoothed out (and sped up).  I do think this is a quiver wing at our size or smaller.  I am thinking the 930 is going to hit it for our sizes in this HPS line.  It will be interesting to see if we need the shim with that one.  I hope not.  The slick feeling amplifies without the shim.  I am also super stoked for the BSC Wings on the Black Fuselage.  If they can take the versatility of the existing 860 and speed it up to 760 levels...Oh yeah!

Yes I actually used the 980 and 390 with no shim, still lots of pulses and quick pitching/touchdowns on the US fuse...

Do you use the short or ultra short ?

420 tail sounds good whenever it comes out.... the 460 is impossible to find too.

Axis says the smaller sizes of the HPS will come out at spring which is months away, decisions decisions....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 23, 2020, 02:36:28 PM
I also have a 400 stab I never use, wonder if I can cut it and thin that down  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 23, 2020, 03:25:26 PM
Iím sure youíd grind to the core foam trying to make a 400 tail 7mm thick.

The 420 is out.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 23, 2020, 04:54:21 PM

Yes I actually used the 980 and 390 with no shim, still lots of pulses and quick pitching/touchdowns on the US fuse...

Do you use the short or ultra short ?

420 tail sounds good whenever it comes out.... the 460 is impossible to find too.

Axis says the smaller sizes of the HPS will come out at spring which is months away, decisions decisions....

I have the Short black fuselage.  Ultra short was too twitchy for me on smaller foils.  I have the 420 tail as well, but I think (still early) that I like the 390 a bit better for this wing.  It seemed to ease up the turns a little.  If so the difference there is very subtle.  At these low angles (without the shim) both are super fast. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 23, 2020, 07:34:57 PM
Allright you've convinced me to go short and try with 390 (no shim).

Unless the Unifoil Hyper is even better once I get to try it  ;D Anything to keep me away from the Armstrong koolaid.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 24, 2020, 02:21:12 PM
Jacky today. 81 degrees. 65 degree water.

https://youtu.be/kFu8XZNiDiw
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 25, 2020, 01:02:52 AM
Still curious if anyone happens to have their 980 in the same room as their dial calipers (assuming the calipers will reach that far back)...

What's the max thickness of the 980 foil section?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2020, 04:10:55 AM
It is 18 mm.  Caliper reaches on this one :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2020, 07:15:17 AM
Some of the magic is coming from how thin this is and another bit  is coming from low angles.

I finally did some measuring (with no shim). 

The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !

The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

The 390 rear wing has an incidence of -2.15 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

The angle difference is 2.45 degrees for the 980/420 and is 2.69 degrees for the 980/390.

We are in a new land.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2020, 08:21:12 AM
For comparison I also measured my 860 and the same 390 on the red fuselage. 

The 860 front wing incidence is at 2.58 degrees
The 390 tail incidence is -2.51 degrees
The angle difference is 5.09 degrees.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 25, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
Interesting stuff Admin, thanks! Haven't the tools to measure this.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 25, 2020, 08:48:27 AM
Interesting stuff Admin, thanks! Haven't the tools to measure this.

Have a look:  https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36870.msg424491/topicseen.html#new
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 25, 2020, 10:00:03 AM
Almost all the Axis Wing/stabilizer combinations I've measured are 5 degrees or thereabout. Most other manufacturers use something like 3 degrees for general use and less (as little as 1 degree) for higher performance wings. I'm not sure why Axis does this, a good question for Adrian. I shim all my Axis combinations to 3 degrees, which requires a 2-degree shim in the front stabilizer screw. I have to get a higher speed to lift off, but once I'm up they don't porpoise, even with the spectrum of fuselages I have--standard to ultra-short--and I can trim the board flat with relatively light front foot pressure.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 26, 2020, 04:57:41 PM
Almost all the Axis Wing/stabilizer combinations I've measured are 5 degrees or thereabout. Most other manufacturers use something like 3 degrees for general use and less (as little as 1 degree) for higher performance wings. I'm not sure why Axis does this, a good question for Adrian. I shim all my Axis combinations to 3 degrees, which requires a 2-degree shim in the front stabilizer screw. I have to get a higher speed to lift off, but once I'm up they don't porpoise, even with the spectrum of fuselages I have--standard to ultra-short--and I can trim the board flat with relatively light front foot pressure.

Interesting.... Sounds like axis are making their foils slower by making them too lifty and beginner friendly. Partly why I'm considering switching to another brand for proper speed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 26, 2020, 05:46:37 PM
Almost all the Axis Wing/stabilizer combinations I've measured are 5 degrees or thereabout. Most other manufacturers use something like 3 degrees for general use and less (as little as 1 degree) for higher performance wings. I'm not sure why Axis does this, a good question for Adrian. I shim all my Axis combinations to 3 degrees, which requires a 2-degree shim in the front stabilizer screw. I have to get a higher speed to lift off, but once I'm up they don't porpoise, even with the spectrum of fuselages I have--standard to ultra-short--and I can trim the board flat with relatively light front foot pressure.

Interesting.... Sounds like axis are making their foils slower by making them too lifty and beginner friendly. Partly why I'm considering switching to another brand for proper speed.

HPS is anything but slow. Axis is making fast foils, easy predictable foils, surfy lose and great stuff to pump around on. Plus several rear wings coming to help speed up the foils in strait aways and turns.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on December 26, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Almost all the Axis Wing/stabilizer combinations I've measured are 5 degrees or thereabout. Most other manufacturers use something like 3 degrees for general use and less (as little as 1 degree) for higher performance wings. I'm not sure why Axis does this, a good question for Adrian. I shim all my Axis combinations to 3 degrees, which requires a 2-degree shim in the front stabilizer screw. I have to get a higher speed to lift off, but once I'm up they don't porpoise, even with the spectrum of fuselages I have--standard to ultra-short--and I can trim the board flat with relatively light front foot pressure.

Interesting.... Sounds like axis are making their foils slower by making them too lifty and beginner friendly. Partly why I'm considering switching to another brand for proper speed.

Interesting.  To me this echoes the idea of how much foils are personal preference, combined with body type and riding style.  I have only ridden Axis HA and haven't felt the need to shim anything nor have I experienced porpoising.

Thinking of the Kujira foil and how folks are wedging to get the front wing to have more angle of incidence.  Wondering if anyone has tried reverse wedging Axis HA wings?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on December 26, 2020, 06:16:12 PM
For me my liking of axis foils is the simplicity,quality, and many options,and of coarse the performance!all my axis wings just bolt on and away we go keep it simple sailors,we ainít racing Ferraris here
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2020, 12:58:18 AM
Also, keep in mind that the new Black Series is at about 2.5 degrees lower angle (difference) than the reds with the wings I have measured and many riders are already shimming them back to a higher degree difference again.  With a 1 degree down-shim they are shimming back to 3.5 degrees.  The red series is at a 5 degree "Native" difference with the wings I have measured and many riders shim them to flatten a degree or 2, which puts you at the same angle difference (4 or 3 degrees) as the Black shimmed i the opposite direction.  Both are tunable to that common range. 

I wish I had some wings from the other series to measure.  It is possible for instance that not all of the front wing series (or even within a series) have matched incidence with one another, even on the same fuselage.  Who knows what we have coming with the slew of wings that are expected in spring.  My guess is that we are going to see the black series all have front wing incidence about .5 degree which is super low.  From there a 2 degree up-shim of the tail and you are at a .5 degree difference, if you were to want that.  That should be low enough for anyone :). Shit, you could shim it to .001 degrees and set your balls on fire.  It may take a half mile to get flying and it may be squirrely as all get out, but...balls on fire. 

I know that I am going to flatten the tail more that I am using with the 980 when I get down to Baja.  Ditching the 1 degree shim was a great first step but I am going to try 1 degree flatter again and see if that is even better.  The pulsing is gone now but the lift still feels too much and stability is still great so I am pretty sure flatter again will be better. 

It is also easy to focus just on the incidence, but that angle is just one piece of the puzzle.  Down 1 degree with a huge 500 tail is a very different result than down the same 1 degree with a 340 or a 460. With Axis we have a ton of options there.  You can change tail incidence, go with a thinner tail, go with a smaller tail or any combination of those.  The most efficient way of getting there may take a little tweaking.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 27, 2020, 03:29:04 AM
So today I tried the Unifoil hyper 210 with the carve tail. I realise this is an Axis thread which is what I own but I think it is worth having this discussion to compare....

The Unifoil is a bloody nice full carbon kit, soooo light. When I jumped on it, I couldn't believe how LOOSE it is, i've never carved that hard just by wiggling my toes (no joke) before with any axis foils whether it's with kite or wing and I have so many wings. It felt incredibly stable too, zero breaching, didn't experience any of this "hobby horsing" pitching I experienced with the black series. I think the Unifoil tail which is mounted from the bottom helps.

The bad news for Unifoil is, it's nowhere as fast or gliding as the black series 980 which I tried over 3 days. So when I was done with the Unifoil I went back out on my Axis 1000/390, this is where I realise what the problem with Axis is. The 19mm mast is draggy as f--k. Even with the 390 tail I could not carve hard at all (short fuselage), everything I tried to do felt delayed. Axis foil feels very much locked into the water pulling an anchor. I am what I'd consider advanced intermediate foiler. I need something loose like the Unifoil but with the speed of the black series. I think the Unifoil carbon mast has a lot to do with how nervous it felt.

I know Axis have more carbon masts coming but they are not light at all, I picked up one and was frankly shocked how heavy it is. The fuselage is so heavy too and they won't do a carbon fuselage. Yes the 980 is fast but it doesn't turn well, it "skids" (hard to explain this). Axis needs to make more pro foils, lighten their mast and offer a full carbon kit with fewer screws then I can die happy ;-)

A semi frustrated foiler still looking for the ultimate foil  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2020, 03:56:39 AM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 27, 2020, 04:05:23 AM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.

And slotted base holes. I have one, a 86cm prototype.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 27, 2020, 04:56:39 AM
Did the measurements on the Gong Veloce XL and 430 V tail as per Admins method.

Front wing is set at .58, rear at 1.53 for a 2.11 dif

The L is probably a better comparison for size to something like the 980 but the XL is what I have.

Front wing 17mm thick, rear 6mm, volume 1.35L, area is 1520cm2 span 94cm
The large is like 15mm, rear 6mm, volume 0.95L, area is 1214cm2 (both projected but they're practically flat)

So these things are super thin and low volume as well as being trimmed pretty flat. Unfortunately I can only speculate how they work. I like the sort of mid-aspect ratio though. Think it will turn well and be pretty forgiving.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2020, 06:26:03 AM
Front wing is set at .58, rear at 1.53 for a 2.11 dif

That is super cool to know.  I am going to try the 980 up-shimmed to both a 2 and a 1.5 degree difference with the 420 and the 390 and see how those work.

Thanks for posting that!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 27, 2020, 08:25:11 AM
Shimming the combined incidence angle down definitely will require more speed to take off. All these incidence decisions by manufacturers have to do with initial take off at the expense of performance. We don't have variable elevators like an airplane or a performance sailboat does, so manufacturers have to design so beginner/intermediate users can get the foil up and fly. With a wing or surfing, it all happens at low speed at first, so the decisions have to work for that.

Five degrees of incidence is a hell of a lot in water. It works fine with a monster low aspect wing like the 1020 to get up and fly as long as there is enough power to keep shoving it through the water in it's draggy, nose-up state. As anyone who has used these big wings knows, as soon as you get up you need to gain some speed and push the nose down, and maintain plenty of front foot pressure to keep from stalling or breaching. The wing is creating lots of excess lift that you need to counter, and lift=drag (sort of, but more lift always means more drag). So you shim everything flatter and things work better until speed increases enough so the excess lift from the wing (increasing as the square of the speed) makes weight control of the foil unstable and the drag equal to whatever force is being applied. The wing won't go faster and the tiniest weight transfer makes it leap around.

Airplanes don't control lift with the elevator (which is fundamentally equivalent to our stabilizer), all the elevator changes is the angle of attack of the wing (and it's used for turning in conjunction with the ailerons). They climb with the throttle. Apply more power and up you go. Changing the AOA increases lift temporarily, but it also radically increases drag and can ultimately lead to a stall unless a lot more power is applied.

Our gear is a big bag of compromises because we don't have any of these controls that can be varied while we're flying. I'm still amazed it works at all. As soon as you start going faster everything gets a lot harder to manage because just about every parameter increases as the square of the speed.

Tweaking these wings is going to be necessary as we progress because they aren't currently designed to progress with us--in fact, they can't be. Axis encourages shimming because I'm certain Adrian knows all this stuff as well as anyone. But don't mistake these changes we make to be improvements to the basic design. It's a necessary change because what WE want from the wings changes. In the early progression, we just want to get up and flying. Now we want more. The bag of compromises is still there, we're just shifting the contents around a bit.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 27, 2020, 10:41:29 AM

A semi frustrated foiler still looking for the ultimate foil  ;D

I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too. Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.

Best foil I've ridden so far (prone surf only) is my AXIS 760 that my brother took from me. I want surf wings. I'm waiting to see what Lift comes out with next year. Guess I'll just have to be annoyed until then.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on December 27, 2020, 12:15:45 PM
I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too.
Yeah, I sometimes I try to blame it on my gear also; when in reality it's me the pilot that's just not able to get all there is out of his wings because of his skill level...or lack there of.  :-[

Not saying there's not someone out there who might have outgrown the available equipment...but that's sure not anyone that I've seen locally.

Quote
Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.
Not at all.

I've seen guys go back to whatever they were doing before (longboard, SUP...), not because the equipment couldn't keep up with them, but rather because it wasn't as easy as they thought, and they were no longer the "top dog" in the pack any longer.

But most of our "original guys" at SanO are still there; or still foiling elsewhere...or fit into the above sentence. It's the newer guys who we see come, and go...when it turns out foiling ain't as easy as it looked, or they thought it'd be. :D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 27, 2020, 12:48:55 PM
Oh I haven't outgrown the "available" equipment. I'm just annoyed at the $2k gear currently in my garage and am not about to spend $2k per setup on new gear because it's 10% better.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 27, 2020, 01:12:12 PM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 27, 2020, 02:04:48 PM

A semi frustrated foiler still looking for the ultimate foil  ;D

I'm annoyed with my gear at the moment too. Do you think this is why all the original guys have stopped foiling? They get to a point where the gear is a limiting factor and go back to their ... longboards etc. Plus there's really no that many places to foil.

Best foil I've ridden so far (prone surf only) is my AXIS 760 that my brother took from me. I want surf wings. I'm waiting to see what Lift comes out with next year. Guess I'll just have to be annoyed until then.
the requirements for prone and quite different to wing.
Give the unifoil hyper a try with the Carve tail. How loose it it with some glide and speed is probably what you're after.
Then there's the Armstrong koolaid  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 27, 2020, 02:14:28 PM
I'm on a signature albatross 175 at the moment. I have the twin tip (which I prefer so far) and the apex downcurved tail. The glide is good. It turns nicely, but it's not a "surf" wing. I also have the stealth 175 which is fine, but the glide isn't there so pumping for 2-1's is difficult.

I'm saving money and hoping to demo the new AXIS carbon mast and black series soon.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2020, 02:28:44 PM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 27, 2020, 04:04:17 PM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
negative they are not yet down under. Game changer?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2020, 01:50:10 AM
V2 Carbon masts are coming soon.  I love the 2020 model so this is exciting.  This is a huge year for drag reduction.

Thinner, faster, lighter, snappier than 2020 model.
This sounds like a sales man post  :D

It needs to have massive improvements/benefits over the al masts. And not feel locked in.

Hey Sidney,

Have you tried the Axis carbon?
negative they are not yet down under. Game changer?

I can tell you my experience.  When I first attached the carbon mast last spring (my first one was the 76) I was still using the Axis the 1020 and 920 (Big, thick foils) with the larger tails.  These are Axis' highest drag combos.  When I put the carbon mast on there it made an immediate difference.  Those combos were noticeably less draggy.  At that time it felt super slick to me, but my frame of reference was low.  As the year progressed I tried many more combos, shedding more drag along the way.  It is definitely a nice piece of the puzzle there.

I switched to the 96 mid season and have always found the masts plenty stiff and I like the responsiveness.  I have ridden a few from other brands that were shockingly soft.  They would have this unexpected wobble or shudder that I found really unpleasant.  My nerves are shot and I can't respond to that stuff.  The Axis carbons provide a really consistent ride at my weight.

You are absolutely  correct about the weight.  There is only a subtle weight advantage over the aluminum masts.  I had thought there might be more.  Lighter is always nice and anything Axis can do to bring the weight down will be appreciated. 

So, I would summarize:  Drag yes, Feel yes, weight no.



Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 28, 2020, 06:38:10 AM
Oh I haven't outgrown the "available" equipment. I'm just annoyed at the $2k gear currently in my garage and am not about to spend $2k per setup on new gear because it's 10% better.

If we're defining performance as purely lift/drag, we're only seeing increases of less than 5% over last years gear and that number will continue to shrink. Improved technique has the potential for far greater gains (at least in my case).
Foiling NY guy tested the A 1050, I didn't see any real world improvement and he's still preferring the 1150.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSUflTBm3nk
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 28, 2020, 07:39:46 AM
Itís going to be hard to improve on the 1150 for anything but turning, and that yields to technique. Even for surfing, if conditions are marginal I go for the 1150. At my current skill level and weight I wouldnít be able to foil in the conditions I often find if I didnít have one.

Damn that dude can pump. More that 100 pumps a minute?!  I havenít done a hundred pumps in all the time Iíve been foiling.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2020, 08:04:46 AM
less than 5% over last years gear

Love the video.  He is always super interesting.  Where did the 5% come from?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on December 28, 2020, 08:10:11 AM
Pono, I completely agree. I have a bunch of other wings to pick from that can do amazing things but non of them can get me up on foil and having a blast as often as the 1150. Session saver. How many times have you gone out on another wing and said "dammit, I would be shredding if I were on the 1150 right now?" I have been holding onto a 920 thinking this will be good for my kids to learn on next summer, but now I am convinced that the 1150 is a great learn to wingfoil wing. The huge glide and low stall speed give me ample time to figure out whats happening. I just watched Foiling NY review of the new HPS and he still favors the 1150. I have only had one session on my 980 and absolutely loved it but, spent a lot more time dealing with lulls and flailing to get it on foil. The bottom line is that many of us foil in less than perfect conditions and the 1150 smooths all of this out immensely. I don't have a ton of time to foil in a given week(3 kids) and I need for my gear to work when my window is open. Anyway, Axis 920 for sale.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 28, 2020, 08:43:11 AM
I've been sup foiling the 1050 when there's a little wave action or big drops. It's faster than the 1150 and turns really tight with really nice push out of the turns so 180's on the faces of waves with no use of the paddle is easy. But when it gets super small and going to be a pump session or shore break rides, the 1150 can't be beat.
The 980/1050 were designed more towards wing'ing tho. On a marginal day that I know I'll be switching between a big wing and paddle, the 1150 is my go to. If I'm just going to wing then 1050/980 is all I bring with me. 4.5 ensis and 1050 is more than enough for 10 knots. Paired with one of DWF's new wing boards designed for the HPS wings.
Axis has several foils coming down the pipeline dedicated for each sport of foiling. Even jumping with the wing. They also have some really nice easier all around stuff that even the top riders are enjoying due to how easy they are.
I recommend trying the 1050/980 wing'ing. That's where those foils work the best. Also down wind racing for the 980.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 28, 2020, 09:16:00 AM


Where did the 5% come from?

Educated guess :)
The specs indicate the 1050 'should' out glide the 1010 (same stab). Properly loaded the 980 'should' out glide all three. I'm thinking 150# rider would be optimum, been through all this in paragliding. L/D should stay the same regardless of loading but doesn't work that way in the real world.

The vid shows the 1010 and 1050 to have identical glide distance in use.

I'm sure the 1150 will out glide the 1010 by a little at my loading. In this case it appears L/D may have increased on paper but I'm not seeing that in this video.

Hey Axis, if only it was possible to try this stuff before buying :)

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 28, 2020, 09:42:42 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSUflTBm3nk

My take on this video. We have to remember he likes really big wings because he's on flat water and mostly just pumping flat water. When he does wake foil it's off the 2nd wake of a JETSKI! He likes the 1010 and says the 910 is to small. The LA guys out here have ridden tons of AXIS gear and none of us would prone surf the 1010, but lots ride the 900/910. So just remember that while watching and size down accordingly.

I think everything he said about the black series seems spot on. It goes along with what other guys are saying about the new generation of gear too. Progression project talking about the Kujira or Lift HA says it takes a bit more energy to pump because you have to keep the speed up, but you cover so much more ground it's actually more efficient to get over to the next peak and hunt down the connection.

Initial lift is less. Didn't Ponobill talk about this just the other day. New wings are being tuned for more speed. We have the wings that work in 1to2andfiringô . Now we need wings that work in faster speeds, so they're going to have less initial lift.

Wingboards have fixed that issue by having tons and tons of volume. If it's super windy you can ride a sinker prone board, but most guys are on big 4 inch + boards so that they get board planing speed. In a lot of his other video's he changes to a thicker board to do the bungee start instead of that 21ish liter board he used in this video. I was surprised just a quick jump on made so much difference. It didn't even change the initial speed very much, just kept him on the surface instead of immediately sinking when he stood off the dock.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2020, 11:36:01 AM
The specs indicate the 1050 'should' out glide the 1010 (same stab). Properly loaded the 980 'should' out glide all three.

At winging speeds, the glide is kind of outrageous.  By that I mean, fling it onto a swell and see what happens.  It carries a ton of speed like that and modulating that speed is more of an issue.  I think that is very different than testing glide falloff from pump power.  Same out of a jibe.  If you stay on your front foot it won't slow down.  It is nuts like that.  It takes some getting used to.  It also foils up super early for me .  I imagine guys at my weight will find the same.  Lastly, it accelerates like crazy.

The cons are, the turns are consistent but deliberate.  I wouldn't buy this as a turner or as a learn to jibe wing.  Fine for any redirection going downwind but nowhere near the 760 or 860 in the bank-at-will department.  Also, It is a bit large for me so top speed is hard to realize.  That is actually a low priority for me. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 28, 2020, 02:55:27 PM
The specs indicate the 1050 'should' out glide the 1010 (same stab). Properly loaded the 980 'should' out glide all three.

At winging speeds, the glide is kind of outrageous.  By that I mean, fling it onto a swell and see what happens.  It carries a ton of speed like that and modulating that speed is more of an issue.  I think that is very different than testing glide falloff from pump power.  Same out of a jibe.  If you stay on your front foot it won't slow down.  It is nuts like that.  It takes some getting used to.  It also foils up super early for me .  I imagine guys at my weight will find the same.  Lastly, it accelerates like crazy.

The cons are, the turns are consistent but deliberate.  I wouldn't buy this as a turner or as a learn to jibe wing.  Fine for any redirection going downwind but nowhere near the 760 or 860 in the bank-at-will department.  Also, It is a bit large for me so top speed is hard to realize.  That is actually a low priority for me.

Just to be clear Admin, you are referring to the 980 and not the 1050?  Have to tried any of the other black series foils?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on December 28, 2020, 04:09:49 PM
Hi Phils,

Yes, the 980.  This is a big foil for 175ish guys for winging.  I plan on using it as my lightest wind foil.  I haven't tried any other black fuse foils yet.   We are going to get the 930, 890 and 810 when those are available as well as the two smaller high aspect tails.  What?  Who said that?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on December 28, 2020, 05:22:32 PM
Are the 'black series' 980 and 1050 in the same family (as the 910 and 1010 are related to one another) or are they completely different wings?

I am looking forward to when these wings will be released and described in the open. I guess we are starting to see more complete descriptions such as Foiling NY video on 1050 etc.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 28, 2020, 05:36:08 PM
What?  Who said that?

Probably Chan, logging in as you. I know she loves spending money on foil gear. Who needs new shoes when you can get an 810 black?

Black is the new Red. I know this fashion shit.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 28, 2020, 06:47:35 PM
Are the 'black series' 980 and 1050 in the same family (as the 910 and 1010 are related to one another) or are they completely different wings?

I am looking forward to when these wings will be released and described in the open. I guess we are starting to see more complete descriptions such as Foiling NY video on 1050 etc.

All the HPS line fits the back fuselage. HPS is 1050, 980, 930, 880...all thin fast foils with some curve in the tips. Nothing like the 910, 1010, 1150.

The smallest sizes in the new Broad Spectrum line also fit the black fuse. To me, this lineup is an improved surf line. Think of it as an updated more modern thinking version of the original surf line.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on December 28, 2020, 07:08:06 PM
Discussion of Black Series from Nov-Dec on Seabreeze.au. 

Last post today (page 4) is Larry Foiler unboxing of 700, 810, 890 and 980 wings. For those that have seen this thread or don't care, please excuse my post.

An earlier post in same thread (bottom page 1) shows pictures overlaying 980 to 1010 and 1150

Actually, I can't summarize it all ... but lots of good stuff here for people interested in real world performance of black series.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Axis-new--B--series-foils-and-980-front-wing? (https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Axis-new--B--series-foils-and-980-front-wing?)

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 29, 2020, 02:34:06 AM


Where did the 5% come from?

Educated guess :)
The specs indicate the 1050 'should' out glide the 1010 (same stab). Properly loaded the 980 'should' out glide all three. I'm thinking 150# rider would be optimum, been through all this in paragliding. L/D should stay the same regardless of loading but doesn't work that way in the real world.

The vid shows the 1010 and 1050 to have identical glide distance in use.

I'm sure the 1150 will out glide the 1010 by a little at my loading. In this case it appears L/D may have increased on paper but I'm not seeing that in this video.

Hey Axis, if only it was possible to try this stuff before buying :)

"Foiling NY" is a great guy (I have had lots of communication with him and he is very gracious about answering questions and being open to critique) whose videos are getting a lot of attention because they are a serious attempt to objectively compare the performance of different foils.  Almost everything else you see online is subjective.  However, his methodology is far from perfect and one has to be careful in interpreting his conclusions.  Take his glide test.  My first concern/question is the SPEED at which he starts the glide.  It has to be consistent for the result to be meaningful.  Even if we assume he is consistent with the speeds, what is his test really measuring and does it translate to what we care about when we assess a foil?  It gets pretty technical but one can simplify things and say he is "measuring" the interaction of drag vs stall speed.  But that measurement in isolation is not that useful for us because we never glide in the kind of flat, protected water that he does.  We glide downwind and there are always tiny or bigger bumps of moving water that give some push as we are gliding.   So for us, we care about acceleration, drag and stall speed.  The newer wings have better acceleration and that is something his glide test does not factor in.

Having said all that, I recently got a 1010 and it's combination of low stall speed and high L/D makes it amazing for low wind winging.  I have tried other makes of high aspect wings but they have too high stall speeds for low wind winging.  They work better for surfing, which most of them are designed for.

According to Adrian, the 1050 and 1010 have identical thickness but the 1050 has less camber so it needs higher speeds to create the same lift but has less drag.  So you trade stall speed for drag. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 29, 2020, 06:58:47 AM
If you like the 1010 you'll love the 1150. I have both and never use the 1010 anymore. Anything the 1010 does the 1150 does better. It even turns better. Spooky good wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on December 29, 2020, 09:07:33 AM
If you like the 1010 you'll love the 1150. I have both and never use the 1010 anymore. Anything the 1010 does the 1150 does better. It even turns better. Spooky good wing.

Yeah, the 1150 is absolutely my go to wing. I also have 1020 and just got 1000 (but haven't used it yet)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Wetstuff on December 29, 2020, 09:20:42 AM
Phils,  I too really like our upstate New York icebreaking friend.  I appreciate the effort he takes in controlling the variables and presenting the information.  I wonder (not just with him) when/if increased time-in-the-saddle makes you a progressively better rider, which alters the results creating an impression it's the stuff below your feet that is making the difference.

Conversely, I believe have seen people test boards where their skills seemingly have plateaued and likely do not equal the board's potential. It may be that some people are unable to optimize their gear and therefore then to blame the horse. 

Nonetheless, it's a great time to live to see this amidst the chaos in other parts of our existence.

Jim
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on December 29, 2020, 11:44:11 AM
I appreciate the effort he takes in controlling the variables and presenting the information.

Agreed Jim,
I like his methodology. I can go back through past tests and compare. That little white buoy is always in the same place. And we weigh about the same. I think he's good enough at it now to show fairly small differences in gear.

The only variable I see is the amount of time he might spend on a setup really dialing it in before testing.

I never wanted for better performance last summer than my 1010/390 setup. I may try a 420 tail but don't see myself going black. Couldn't live with the increased stall speed and don't have any use for speeds over 20mph. 99% of my time riding waves downwind I'm going 6-15mph. If I was downwind racing I'd be much more interested but I'm in no hurry  :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on December 30, 2020, 10:27:04 AM
A request:  Would someone with experience with the Axis 980 wing please list the positives and negatives of this wing in comparison with other wings they may have owned (i.e. Armstrong 1850 or 1250, Moses 1100, Slingshot i84 or i76, etc.).

I'm looking for new winging (and windfoiling) foils so thanks in advance for any info.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 30, 2020, 11:39:16 AM
Read Dwight's post in this thread. He's gone through most of the big name brands. He's now on the AXIS black series. Pretty big endorsement for winging right there.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on December 30, 2020, 05:02:54 PM
It's really hard to get a handle on new foils -- so many new foils and so little time.

Slingshot has the new Phantasm, which will accept the Moses surf wings (i.e. W1100) along with its new winging and windfoiling wing foils all mounted on an extremely stiff and long mast (see Tucker's video below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG1QGNsAdOY
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 30, 2020, 05:19:17 PM
Yes I'm keen to checkout the Phantasm, Fone Phantom and Moses (w950 coming out soon). Checkout this: https://www.mackiteboarding.com/news/joes-thoughts-on-the-moses-1000-vs-fone-phantom-1480/

I doubt Fone will be as quick as the black series.
Moses wings look the thinnest I've seen.

I had another go on the 980 yesterday using the US fuse and a custom flat tail. It's quick but the pitching/pulsing is becoming annoying and is hard work. Hence I am keen to try other stuff out there a bit more stable pitch-wise.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 30, 2020, 05:22:57 PM
A request:  Would someone with experience with the Axis 980 wing please list the positives and negatives of this wing in comparison with other wings they may have owned (i.e. Armstrong 1850 or 1250, Moses 1100, Slingshot i84 or i76, etc.).

I'm looking for new winging (and windfoiling) foils so thanks in advance for any info.

My best advice is to demo them yourself. Please do not buy a complete new foil set without trying first. Especially with the HPS black series, it's an advanced foil which requires skills to get it going and keeping it going.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on December 30, 2020, 06:36:11 PM
Is the 1300 part of the HPS range or more of a supercharged 1150 replacement? I know it uses the red fuse but haven't heard much.....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 30, 2020, 06:47:16 PM
Is the 1300 part of the HPS range or more of a supercharged 1150 replacement? I know it uses the red fuse but haven't heard much.....

A bigger 1150. Red fuse model.  Not part of the HPS range.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on December 30, 2020, 06:58:26 PM
Faster than the 1150 right?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on December 30, 2020, 07:18:09 PM
1300 is dedicated towards wing'ing. Beginner/intermediate and super light winds. Has tons of glide but not a pumper like the 1150. It goes on the red fuselage and I prefer it with crazy short fuselage and 370 rear. This will probly not be out till spring. I can ride in less wind than what I could do with a 13 Chrono V3 and 1250 foil. I think those that want a super easy down wind foil will also love it. It was blowing 20 knots and I was on a 2.5 ensis, got on foil and just glided forever with little to no input from me. Turns very well for its size when paired with ultra or crazy short fuselage. The foil is so long that it's incredibly stable. If you're new to winging and don't have a good board pump, then 1300 will be for you. Two pumps of the wind wing and you're up and riding.

As for the HPS wings, the 1050 is so user friendly. I've had several beginners get on it with the ultra short fuselage and 370 rear shimmed, haven't had a person get off it and not ask when they can get one. Teaching tacks has been really easy also. The foil will carry you through the turn without the wind wing's help. This also relates to riding towards a wave, tacking without the wing and riding away on the waves power.

I'm in South Florida so if you're in the area, hit me up to try them. This week key West, next week Miami
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on December 30, 2020, 10:18:38 PM
I tried my 1150 and 340 with the ultra short fuselage (which I previously didn't like) and I loved it. I put that combo on the fuse because I'm using carbon masts and I happened to have this unused, unloved ultra-short laying around. Who knew it could be cool?

I'm trying to figure out why I like it, it's weird. It's the usual 1150 stuff, but it turns really well, almost like the 860. No idea why.

Also, I set it up with no shim because I only had two short screws, and it's good! I think the ultra short fuse is equivalent to a little bit of shim.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 31, 2020, 04:07:45 AM
today I had another go on the 980 but this time I used the rear shim on the custom flat stab and what a difference it makes after my session yesterday (where it was pulsating lots), with the shim is a lot more stable. It was also light winds 13-17Kn which is where I find the 980 excels best for my 76kg and 6m wing.

As such I am not thinking of sticking to ultra short over short as I enjoy it being loose and pumping. Anyone else enjoying the ultra short with the 980/1050?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on December 31, 2020, 05:18:18 AM
If you like the 1010 you'll love the 1150. I have both and never use the 1010 anymore. Anything the 1010 does the 1150 does better. It even turns better. Spooky good wing.

Yeah, finding a good deal on a used 1150 locally is what got me on this slippery slope.  Its combination of low stall speed and glide is second to none, IMO.  Now I am wondering if the 1300 will be even better. :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 31, 2020, 01:39:03 PM
Jacky broke her speed record today. HPS980/420 no shim.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJeRa_IrPtd/?igshid=1fs64898o5091
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 31, 2020, 02:22:55 PM
Jacky broke her speed record today. HPS980/420 no shim.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJeRa_IrPtd/?igshid=1fs64898o5091

Mph? That's about 16kn. I've got 19.2knots.

I can also hit 18kn with the 1000.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on December 31, 2020, 03:03:30 PM
Are you a 116 lb 65 year old female?

She is stoked.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on December 31, 2020, 04:03:59 PM
Mic drop. I'm stoked for her too! You guys keep tempting me to buy a wing again.

I did have a good prone session today though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on December 31, 2020, 04:26:24 PM
Are you a 116 lb 65 year old female?

She is stoked.
lol well done to Jacky 8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2021, 12:12:46 PM
I finally tried the HPS980 and HPS1050 without shim (420 tail). It did not work for me. Felt all wrong at my weight.

Meanwhile Jacky has been doing great on the HPS980 without shim, but still had some hobby horse syndrome under certain conditions. So I installed the shim reversed and trimmed the plastic to work backwards. She liked it. That is probably the lowest angle possible for the 420 tail.


Today
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJg5GhNrhxT/?igshid=12h49fwjopwi7
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on January 01, 2021, 01:01:24 PM
DW I'm confused -- I thought you liked the HPS980 Axis with the low drag 420 tail with no shim?  Now you seem to be saying that the 980 + 420 stab, without the shim, doesn't work for you.  Please clarify which Axis front wing and stab (shim or no shim) you like.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2021, 01:08:05 PM
Admin likes no shim. I always run shim. Letís not forget 420 tail is already super low drag at only 7mm thick. Many other Axis tails are 10.5mm thick on average.

Axis supplies shim as standard with this setup. In fact, I was told by Axis to use the shim, so it took me a awhile to get around to trying it without.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 01, 2021, 01:46:45 PM
So I installed the shim reversed and trimmed the plastic to work backwards. She liked it. That is probably the lowest angle possible for the 420 tail.

 Nice, I am stoked to try that. 

Tail on the new board looks great!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 01, 2021, 03:27:11 PM
I would like to better understand the conditions too in which the "hobby horsing" syndrome happens.

For me:
- Definitely a lot less when using the rear shim (the one supplied), I do need to try back to back with and without to be certain.
- I get less with a flat stab (custom) than the 390GAP rear (too much drag from the thickness?)
- Smoother/flatter water means less hobby horsing too

This is all on the ultra short fuselage.

I am wondering whether the short fuselage would still be better to mitigate this ? I am enjoying how loose and how much I can pump with the US but I wonder whether it's more to do with the high aspect wings then the US fuselage (well probably both).... How long is the black series short fuselage ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 01, 2021, 03:47:25 PM
Sidney, I read a lot of your posts and you seem like a smart dude technically. I'm not buying that you don't know what causes that. Any relative incidence angle between the stabilizer and the wing means a force is applied to increase the angle of attack. That has to be countered with front foot pressure to keep the wing flat. As you increase speed the force increases and you either under- or over-compensate.  Probably under. The nose rises, you press down harder, the nose goes down. speed increases, nose rises. And as the shampoo bottle says, Lather, rinse, repeat.

To make it go away you shim the stab to decrease the relative incidence angle. Now you need to go a lot faster to get up. You finally do, and with the lower drag (high AOA is super draggy) you get more speed = more lift. Now the board stays more or less flat but eventually rises until you hear the dreaded slurping. You push down, save it, and start a new round of nose down hobby horse, this time at a much higher speed so when you toss it all away the water has all the forgiveness of a concrete tennis court.

Not that I've ever done that. I'm just living with a permanently cricked neck because I'm watching too much TV.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 01, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
What is actually confusing me is which way to the angles of incidence change with shims.

Admin posted this info a while back:
Quote
The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !
The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

Shimming the back of the rear tail increases the negative AOI doesn't it ? (say it goes from -1.91 to -2.91) so how does it make it more stable with bigger numbers (or perhaps it's the other way round  ;D)

Scratching my head with all the numbers  :o
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on January 01, 2021, 04:23:44 PM
The different stabs are setup with different AoA(1-4degeees) As well i think Adrian mentioned the front wings have some variance in their AoA-somewhere between 1-2degrees.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2021, 05:00:26 PM


I am wondering whether the short fuselage would still be better to mitigate this ?

YES!

When I demoed the 980 ultra short with 370 or 340 tail (forgot which one it was) it was such a hobby horsing cluster F*** there is no way I would have been converted back to Axis with that setup.

The short fuse and 420 tail was a whole different magical world, that completely sold me on Axis
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 01, 2021, 05:34:08 PM
Today
(https://i.imgur.com/MrRcvNl.png?1)
DW, is that a camera angle optical illusion...or are the fuse and bottom not parallel to one another?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 01, 2021, 06:08:18 PM
Today
(https://i.imgur.com/MrRcvNl.png?1)
DW, is that a camera angle optical illusion...or are the fuse and bottom not parallel to one another?

optical illusion. Even the board looks very distorted to me.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50789505812_1b81272762_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on January 01, 2021, 07:09:26 PM


I am wondering whether the short fuselage would still be better to mitigate this ?

YES!

When I demoed the 980 ultra short with 370 or 340 tail (forgot which one it was) it was such a hobby horsing cluster F*** there is no way I would have been converted back to Axis with that setup.

The short fuse and 420 tail was a whole different magical world, that completely sold me on Axis

370 shimmed rear on my Mr Toad's wild ride. Just got the crazy short from axis to try next week.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on January 01, 2021, 07:39:18 PM
Holy heated shim talk!!!
I rode my 980 on US fuse with 460 stab no shim all the way back in finbox and the first thing I felt way that on the surface just putting along, there was a dramatic lifting of front of board. It took me a bit to figure out how to scootch all my weight farther forward to combat this. What started all the hobbyhorsing was the nose lifting out before I wanted it to or before it had enough speed to get on foil. I think a big part of this is how much less drag  the foil has even before liftoff. This was foreign to me as I have only recently come off of large draggy foils. I remember my Slingshot 84/48 doing this too. Infact, I wasted an entire Maui trip on fighting with this a year and a half ago. Its different reason its happening on the 980 although a similar tendency to want to come up sooner and then stall. When I had decent wind with the 980, this went away. So, my solution, without trying the shim was keep heavy front foot pressure until board speed hit a certain threshold. The 980 is a squirrely beast to get up compared to my other axis foils 1150/1010/920 but once up, I had no problems with it. I do think that suttle inputs helps compared to other wings. Once up, its just mind foiling. It goes where I think about going. Mindblowing!!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 01, 2021, 08:03:23 PM
What is actually confusing me is which way to the angles of incidence change with shims.

Admin posted this info a while back:
Quote
The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !
The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

Shimming the back of the rear tail increases the negative AOI doesn't it ? (say it goes from -1.91 to -2.91) so how does it make it more stable with bigger numbers (or perhaps it's the other way round  ;D)

Scratching my head with all the numbers  :o

Yeah, you've got it backward. shimming to reduce porpoising and make the foil work better at higher speeds is shimming the front of the stabilizer to reduce the total incidence, in other words, to reduce the amount of up elevator that is built-in that helps beginners and people going slow to get their board up out of the water and flying.

Most axis foil/stabilizer combinations wind up with about 5 degrees total incidence, in other words, 5 degrees of up elevator. Shimming the front of the stab to reduce that to 2-3 degrees makes the porpoise calm down until you get going fast enough, and then it comes back, but it's more controlled.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on January 01, 2021, 09:07:27 PM
If you like the 1010 you'll love the 1150. I have both and never use the 1010 anymore. Anything the 1010 does the 1150 does better. It even turns better. Spooky good wing.

Yeah, finding a good deal on a used 1150 locally is what got me on this slippery slope.  Its combination of low stall speed and glide is second to none, IMO.  Now I am wondering if the 1300 will be even better. :)

Yeah, I have the 1150 and love it... but having just learned that the 1300 goes on red fuse, I think that will be nice to add to my quiver to extend my wind range for light wind winging.

@flkiter or anybody, what is the surface area of the 1300?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 02, 2021, 03:07:05 AM
What is actually confusing me is which way to the angles of incidence change with shims.

Admin posted this info a while back:
Quote
The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !
The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

Shimming the back of the rear tail increases the negative AOI doesn't it ? (say it goes from -1.91 to -2.91) so how does it make it more stable with bigger numbers (or perhaps it's the other way round  ;D)

Scratching my head with all the numbers  :o

Hi Sidney,

The provided shim is a down shim.  The stabilizer in its stock position (no shim) is an inverted foil which already angles downward by 1.91 degrees in relation to the fuselage (and mast plate, and your board - if it has a parallel base and deck).  I just checked the shim that I received and it is accurate.  It increases the negative incidence by exactly 1 degree.  This shim increases that downward angle.  Using the measurements on my kit (which are duplicable every time) that takes me from -1.91 to -2.91 stabilizer incidence.

I noticed the opposite of what you are noticing.  I had pulsing with the shim installed.  Removing the shim corrected that but I still have too much lift at speed.  This isn't the same pulsing, it is very smooth but it requires increasing pressure on the front foot as it accelerates to keep it down and it still feels about to blow through when it really gets moving.  I had mentioned before that I was going to try it with up shimming by a half or 1 degree (which will decrease the negative stabilizer  incidence).  Dwight mentioned that Jacky has now tried that with some success. 

These are changes to incidence not angle of attack (which is an angle relationship to oncoming flow).  It is an important distinction because in our case (once mounted) incidence for each wing is fixed, as is the difference between front foil incidence and stabilizer incidence.

It is probably best to think of it as 3 things.  Incidence measures the angles of individual elements attached to the fuselage (this is a fixed measurement).  The difference between these angles is also important (this is also fixed).  This is not incidence itself.  This is the difference between front wing incidence and stabilizer incidence.  The angle of attack is a third element and it is dynamic, not a fixed measurement.  Angle of attack changes constantly while you are riding.  Angle of attack is much more pinned when the board is on the surface then when it is in full flight, particularly when you are doing the flatter take-off that these foils desire (no, or less pumping). 


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 02, 2021, 03:26:57 AM
To remind everyone and clarify...

Hobby horsing is not doing a wheelie, then plopping back down.

Hobby horsing = when your foil is ďfeelingĒ simple wind chop wave energy at high speed. It makes the ride pulse in a hobby horsing manor because itís telling you ďNo MasĒ ....canít handle going that fast in this chop. Too much drag, too much foil, for the conditions.

Need faster front wing. Need faster tail. Need less tail angle. I need to gain weight. Need something better.

Kane was asked how he was able to wing the recent huge waves in Maui with only a 76cm mast. His answer was getting his foils trimmed as close to neutral as possible. Thatís where we are going.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 02, 2021, 03:49:22 AM
The 980 is a squirrely beast to get up compared to my other axis foils 1150/1010/920

Hah!  I had this same adjustment with the 1000 and 900 when I first tried them.  I was doing my usual thing (from the earlier Axis Foils 1020, 920, 1010, etc) and they would just leap and collapse.  I thought, these foils suck!  It isn't really a skill which changes this, it is just an adjustment in expectation which soon becomes muscle memory.  They have a different take off.  It is low and flat.  Pumping works against you.  Let them run a little bit and then ease them up.  When you are figuring it out let them run flat until you have pretty good speed, then angle really slowly.  Later you will internalize the exact point when you are good to go.  Once its in there I think you will actually prefer the takeoff.  It is quick and requires very little wind or effort. 

The 980 for me is similar in takeoff technique to the 1000 or 900 but is much easier in that it is way more forgiving and doesn't collapse nearly as easily.  Once it is up it is at speed almost instantly.  This is where it excels like no other.  That is where you would still be milking the other foils to get them moving. 

It is probably also worth noting that we are all likely (and expectedly) having very different experiences on these foils.  Every 20 lbs changes things a lot.  20 lbs doesn't sound like much, but it is 12% of my body weight.  The area difference between the 980 and 930 is 8%.  The difference between the 1050 and 980 is 12%.  The differences are much less again comparing wingspan.  This is similar with any metric you want to look at.  Sure wings have a range and you can tune them, but even so it is very different experience.  We a not all going love the same foils.

There are 5 sizes of the HPS wings coming.  The 1050 and 980 are the two largest and it is safe to say that almost all riders will be covered.  These wings generate a lot of lift.  I would be surprised if they slated 5 sizes and left out a common weight class.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 02, 2021, 03:54:01 AM
What is actually confusing me is which way to the angles of incidence change with shims.

Admin posted this info a while back:
Quote
The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !
The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

Shimming the back of the rear tail increases the negative AOI doesn't it ? (say it goes from -1.91 to -2.91) so how does it make it more stable with bigger numbers (or perhaps it's the other way round  ;D)

Scratching my head with all the numbers  :o

Yeah, you've got it backward. shimming to reduce porpoising and make the foil work better at higher speeds is shimming the front of the stabilizer to reduce the total incidence, in other words, to reduce the amount of up elevator that is built-in that helps beginners and people going slow to get their board up out of the water and flying.

Most axis foil/stabilizer combinations wind up with about 5 degrees total incidence, in other words, 5 degrees of up elevator. Shimming the front of the stab to reduce that to 2-3 degrees makes the porpoise calm down until you get going fast enough, and then it comes back, but it's more controlled.
I get that shimming the front of the stabiliser reduces the AOI to make it more stable at speed.
However shimming the the back of the stabiliser increases the AOI and makes the black series more stable. Sorry I still don't get that one. Because we always need SOME positive degrees for stability and lift like every airplane has? :o

Apologies for being annoying perhaps I should forget about shims induced confusion and just go short  fuselage and I'll get used to the pulses. Every foil pulses somewhat anyway!
It's a good point hobby horsing and too much lift are two different things. The 980 definitely becomes too lifty once it gets very windy for my weight. Looking forward to smaller HPS wings.

Wished axis would just clear this all up on their website....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 02, 2021, 04:21:46 AM

I get that shimming the front of the stabiliser reduces the AOI to make it more stable at speed.
However shimming the the back of the stabiliser increases the AOI and makes the black series more stable. Sorry I still don't get that one. Because we always need SOME positive degrees for stability and lift like every airplane has? :o

You could hypothetically shim the front of the stabilizer, flattening it to zero incidence by the full 1.91 degrees and still have a .5 degree (positive) angle difference to the front foil because the front foil has an incidence of .5 degrees.

You will want to measure your own kit because even screw adjustments or sample variation can change these angles. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 02, 2021, 07:27:40 AM
DW, is that a camera angle optical illusion...or are the fuse and bottom not parallel to one another?
optical illusion. Even the board looks very distorted to me.
Thanks. Figured as much, but just wanted to make sure you weren't holding out any super secret go fast and carve it up setup on us. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 02, 2021, 09:02:39 AM
What is actually confusing me is which way to the angles of incidence change with shims.

Admin posted this info a while back:
Quote
The 980 front wing has an incidence of +.54 degrees.  This is notable.  That is 1/2 of a degree !
The 420 rear wing has an incidence of -1.91 degrees (on the black fuselage only).

Shimming the back of the rear tail increases the negative AOI doesn't it ? (say it goes from -1.91 to -2.91) so how does it make it more stable with bigger numbers (or perhaps it's the other way round  ;D)

Scratching my head with all the numbers  :o

Hi Sidney,

The provided shim is a down shim.  The stabilizer in its stock position (no shim) is an inverted foil which already angles downward by 1.91 degrees in relation to the fuselage (and mast plate, and your board - if it has a parallel base and deck).  I just checked the shim that I received and it is accurate.  It increases the negative incidence by exactly 1 degree.  This shim increases that downward angle.  Using the measurements on my kit (which are duplicable every time) that takes me from -1.91 to -2.91 stabilizer incidence.
OK, I'll be honest...Sydney's not the only one confused by the terminology being used here and on the Axis site.

When we talk here about shimming the rear of the stab, and saying that "It increases the negative incidence by exactly 1 degree; that sounds as though that "decreases" the AOI by 1 degree (at least how I read it, and am doing the math)

However, on the Axis site, they identify shimming the rear of the stab as a "+1 Degree Rear Wing Shim". Which - again maybe just to me - sounds as though that is adding a degree of AOI....
(https://i.imgur.com/tOfkQHb.png?1)
...not decreasing it (-1.91 "+1 Degree" = -0.91 to me, not -2.91 as is being measured here).

Conversely, using the Axis "-1 Degree Rear Wing Shim" that shims the leading edge of the stab (that I run with the 900 front), doing the math gives me -1.91 "-1 Degree" = the -2.91 measured on Admin's table...but is the wrong shim as being discussed.

I think PB explained it best when talking about the entire AOI of the front and back wings combined....
Quote
Most axis foil/stabilizer combinations wind up with about 5 degrees total incidence, in other words, 5 degrees of up elevator. Shimming the front of the stab to reduce that to 2-3 degrees
...which at least makes sense in why shimming the leading edge with a "-1 Degree Rear Wing Shim" takes a degree out of the "foil/stabilizer combo", instead of screwing up the math of adding a degree in the trailing edge with a "+1 Degree Rear Wing Shim", and somehow going from -1.91 to -2.91...wth? ???

Just my simpleton way of understanding it all. :-[




Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 02, 2021, 12:02:53 PM
Hi Cali,

I wrote almost that same thing back here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35177.msg423502.html#msg423502 .

The naming of those shims is super confusing and is the opposite naming used by many other brands.  I am just calling it up-shimming and down-shimming.  The shim that Axis is providing with the 980 is the shim on the right in the image.  This stock shim is taking the already negative incidence of -1.91 and making it -2.91.  The shim angles the stabilizer further downwards.  This seemed counterintuitive to me as well but it is correct.

A few scenarios.

Dwight rides his with the stock shim.  He is at -2.91 degrees for the stabilizer.  He is using the shim in the right image.  I am calling that down-shimming.
I have been riding with no shim.  That is at the native -1.91 degrees for the stabilizer (no shim).
Jacky is riding with the shim in the left image.  That puts her at -.91 degrees.  I am calling that up-shimming. 
In all 3 of these instances the stabilizer still has negative incidence. 




(https://i.imgur.com/tOfkQHb.png?1)

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: DavidJohn on January 02, 2021, 01:06:47 PM
These make great shims..

http://thedabbler.co.uk/2015/07/bread-clips/
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 02, 2021, 02:26:15 PM
These make great shims..

http://thedabbler.co.uk/2015/07/bread-clips/

Thanks! 

Where were you 6 hours ago when I made a 1/2 degree shim from aluminum  ;D. I feel so dumb now.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 02, 2021, 02:52:16 PM
Hi Cali,

I wrote almost that same thing back here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35177.msg423502.html#msg423502 .

The naming of those shims is super confusingand is the opposite naming used by many other brands.  I am just calling it up-shimming and down-shimming.
Yeah, remember it the simply by what I'm trying to do to the "lift" of the entire foil.

So if I want add lift to the entire foil I reach for a "+1" shim (raising the trailing edge of the stab) - if I want to decrease lift, I grab a "-1" shim (raising the leading edge of the stab). Positive increases, negative degreases lift...EZ-PZ. :)



Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 02, 2021, 02:56:36 PM
Since every manufacturer and every person joining the conversation seems to have their own terminology I just ignore it all.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 02, 2021, 03:55:28 PM
Hi Cali,

I wrote almost that same thing back here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35177.msg423502.html#msg423502 .

The naming of those shims is super confusingand is the opposite naming used by many other brands.  I am just calling it up-shimming and down-shimming.
Yeah, remember it the simply by what I'm trying to do to the "lift" of the entire foil.

So if I want add lift to the entire foil I reach for a "+1" shim (raising the trailing edge of the stab) - if I want to decrease lift, I grab a "-1" shim (raising the leading edge of the stab). Positive increases, negative degreases lift...EZ-PZ. :)

I hear you.  That is a reasonable way think of it.  Bill is right as well, with Armstrong and others putting it like this: https://www.armstrongfoils.com/tail-trim-fairings/ we are not going to come up with easy language for this.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 02, 2021, 05:33:18 PM
Armstrongs labeling made my head hurt.

+1 for less lift
0 for more lift

WTF

I say who gives a crap what the numbers are.

Make the shims color coded or labeled. More Lift, Less lift. The End!

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 02, 2021, 06:53:39 PM
Armstrongs labeling made my head hurt.

+1 for less lift
0 for more lift

WTF

I say who gives a crap what the numbers are.

Make the shims color coded or labeled. More Lift, Less lift. The End!

Amen Dwight only way to go regarding shims should be a universal across the board 100%

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: supnorte on January 03, 2021, 11:04:03 AM
My friend Tiago dock starting the High Performance Series 980 despite only being 1253 cm2:
https://fb.watch/2NPpGTmIq4/

And doing the same with the HPS 1050:
https://fb.watch/2NPtpxLon9/

And surfing with the 1050:
https://fb.watch/2NPwzwu1x5/

Can't wait to try my 980!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 03, 2021, 11:42:53 AM
I think many brands are using projected area.

So the 980 is 1218 projected.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on January 03, 2021, 04:53:59 PM
My friend Tiago dock starting the High Performance Series 980 despite only being 1253 cm2:
https://fb.watch/2NPpGTmIq4/

And doing the same with the HPS 1050:
https://fb.watch/2NPtpxLon9/

And surfing with the 1050:
https://fb.watch/2NPwzwu1x5/

Can't wait to try my 980!

I'm really enjoying sup foiling the 1050 also. Just got the crazy short fuselage and hope to get on it tomorrow. It's great how fast these foils can move and turn.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 03, 2021, 05:47:16 PM
Can someone shed some light on the 980 prototypes around at the moment vs the production range coming out later ?

I heard that the production one will be slightly different and slower  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 04, 2021, 12:06:32 AM
In other news I read somewhere that there will be a smaller 420 design stab; 380  8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 04, 2021, 12:56:01 AM
Hi Sydney,

There are two new High Aspect tails coming.  A 400 which is a smaller version of the 460 and a 380 which is a smaller version of the 420.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 04, 2021, 03:21:01 AM
Hi Sydney,

There are two new High Aspect tails coming.  A 400 which is a smaller version of the 460 and a 380 which is a smaller version of the 420.

Thanks, does that mean the 400 is going to be flat without those upwards tips like the 460?

Axis confusing us as usual  :-\ Need some proper details and matching guide on their website.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 04, 2021, 04:01:30 AM
Here are some details:

420: New for 2021, with flat and high aspect section, and 17mm winglets on the tips for more stability while hard carving. FAST and high performance
400: A smaller and faster version of the 460 rear wing. Designed for the pro rider in you
380: An even smaller, faster and higher performance rear wing, carrying the same design principles as the 420

I am looking forward to the smaller tails.  The 980 that I have is really cool.  Mine is very low incidence at .5 degree.  I have no idea what anyone else has.  Right now I still have a bit too much tail influence so I need to either flatten the tail more, drop some tail area or both.  I am very OK spending a little time tuning this one out because it is a smoking foil.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 04, 2021, 05:33:17 PM
Someone just told me that the 420 tail has better upwind than his cut down 460 (to 410).

So this means the upwards tips means better upwind, interesting.....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on January 04, 2021, 07:02:42 PM
Better tracking through turns with the tips. So if youíre leaned over I guess the tips help you go upwind. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 08, 2021, 02:54:25 AM
Here you go.  1300. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR0SBbxK34Ch4DeC89tKpJBc8XR4UKfmsH-C_VwrDoM2HE3_CnnuxDsmoOo&v=CrUC5cr2ooE&feature=youtu.be

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136721872_10158022617347725_6230573730242140991_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=ygDfLieMEDgAX9zlgoY&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=c5a1accfffd22cc051dbaa59a32a39a5&oe=601BF047)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 09, 2021, 09:03:16 AM
My Axis Kane tail just arrived. $265 delivered.

Thickness is same as the 420. Chord is more at 65mm versus 50mm for the 420. Span is 355 versus 420.

My next session should be fun. The water speed app will reveal all I care about.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817846571_b4a0667f9e_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817102728_3473ba5cba_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on January 09, 2021, 12:00:27 PM
That is some sexy tail Dwight! I want to get me some. Is that a "stock" Kane Axis tail or did you request dimensions?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 09, 2021, 02:27:54 PM
Stock Kane tail.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: dylbert_ on January 09, 2021, 05:05:30 PM
My Axis Kane tail just arrived. $265 delivered.

Thickness is same as the 420. Chord is more at 65mm versus 50mm for the 420. Span is 355 versus 420.

My next session should be fun. The water speed app will reveal all I care about.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817846571_b4a0667f9e_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817102728_3473ba5cba_c.jpg)

Dwight,

have you measured the AoI for the KD tail?  Mine just arrived but I cant find my calipers...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 10, 2021, 02:35:44 AM

have you measured the AoI for the KD tail?  Mine just arrived but I cant find my calipers...

No. Iíll let my instincts riding it, figure it out.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dontsink on January 10, 2021, 03:05:18 AM
Where can you order those Kane tails?.
I might buy one for a Takuma LOL.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 10, 2021, 07:25:18 AM
Chord is more at 65mm versus 50mm for the 420.

420 is 60 chord.  Interested to see how this goes for you. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on January 10, 2021, 09:42:56 AM
After reading Bill shims his tail I gave it try. 

For me the 420 with 1 hotel key card shim (decreasing down force) was fun on a small wave, looser, faster, more slippery in a good way.  Than I caught an overhead bomb and was barely hanging on, I survived the 600+ yards but felt lucky not to have a high speed faceplant.  Took the shim out for the rest of the session, felt super springy as in more than I like but also more pitch control.

Yesterday was smaller, tried 2 thin beer can (probably coconut water) shims, I like that feel, still some spring and able to go more top to bottom on the good sections.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 10, 2021, 11:09:22 AM
Kane dimensions a little off. A good size gap at the front. Hope it doesnít whistle.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50822159257_207bfe7a5a_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on January 10, 2021, 12:59:10 PM
Where can you order those Kane tails?.
I might buy one for a Takuma LOL.

Direct message @kdmaui on instagram is how to order.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 10, 2021, 05:55:12 PM
My Axis Kane tail just arrived. $265 delivered.

Thickness is same as the 420. Chord is more at 65mm versus 50mm for the 420. Span is 355 versus 420.

My next session should be fun. The water speed app will reveal all I care about.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817846571_b4a0667f9e_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817102728_3473ba5cba_c.jpg)

Nice! Look forward to your review vs the 420 in particular with upwind and carving to see how effective the. upwards tips on the 420 are
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on January 12, 2021, 05:29:41 PM
After reading Bill shims his tail I gave it try. 

For me the 420 with 1 hotel key card shim (decreasing down force) was fun on a small wave, looser, faster, more slippery in a good way.  Than I caught an overhead bomb and was barely hanging on, I survived the 600+ yards but felt lucky not to have a high speed faceplant.  Took the shim out for the rest of the session, felt super springy as in more than I like but also more pitch control.

Yesterday was smaller, tried 2 thin beer can (probably coconut water) shims, I like that feel, still some spring and able to go more top to bottom on the good sections.

Is it feasible to take the shim out while in the water or do you come in to beach for that?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: RobM on January 12, 2021, 06:28:33 PM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 12, 2021, 08:43:35 PM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)
Oh shit here we go already 1k at least in the hole just looking at the new wings,just plucked down some good coin on the 860 the other day!wondering if anyone tried the 1300 yet as that might be a big guy lightwind weapon,but not sure it be that much better than my 1150 thatís the $800 question.Like to hear from anyone who has tried one yet? Also the 1050 B is looking mighty intriguing too! To me this is the big advantage of Axis these days they are pretty much in a league of there own with so many wing offerings to make your head spin,donít think any foil company has these many options to my knowledge,thanks for posting this news,drool on👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on January 12, 2021, 09:41:43 PM
After reading Bill shims his tail I gave it try. 

For me the 420 with 1 hotel key card shim (decreasing down force) was fun on a small wave, looser, faster, more slippery in a good way.  Than I caught an overhead bomb and was barely hanging on, I survived the 600+ yards but felt lucky not to have a high speed faceplant.  Took the shim out for the rest of the session, felt super springy as in more than I like but also more pitch control.

Yesterday was smaller, tried 2 thin beer can (probably coconut water) shims, I like that feel, still some spring and able to go more top to bottom on the good sections.

Is it feasible to take the shim out while in the water or do you come in to beach for that?

Absolutely, as long as I don't use through the bolt shims - as in taking a bolt completely out in the water is asking for trouble.  Bit tricky as shims usually like to stay in there with the bolt only partially loosened, helps if I have another shim with me to push out the shim. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 13, 2021, 12:18:25 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)

I am a bit disappointed, the S860  is now my goto foil for winging and I use my S920 under 17 knots for winging. I tried the S980 and I did not like the way it turns at all...
And the S1010 and S1150 are also not my thing.
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

Come on Axis , why not a 960 with 1500 cm^2 ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 13, 2021, 01:21:45 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)

.....
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

....

I think the 890 has similar AR to the 810 so projected SA will be around 1240. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 13, 2021, 06:23:03 AM

I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

I think the 890 has similar AR to the 810 so projected SA will be around 1240.

That's what I expected, too small.
And I don't want to go wider than a meter..
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 13, 2021, 06:27:37 AM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 13, 2021, 06:46:17 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)
Agree 100% where is the big brother to the 860!! We need a 960 bad!would be a great winging wing for us big guys
I am a bit disappointed, the S860  is now my goto foil for winging and I use my S920 under 17 knots for winging. I tried the S980 and I did not like the way it turns at all...
And the S1010 and S1150 are also not my thing.
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

Come on Axis , why not a 960 with 1500 cm^2 ?
Agree 100% we need a big brother to the 860!!We need a 960 bad!would be a great winging wing for us big guys
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 13, 2021, 07:32:22 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)

I am a bit disappointed, the S860  is now my goto foil for winging and I use my S920 under 17 knots for winging. I tried the S980 and I did not like the way it turns at all...
And the S1010 and S1150 are also not my thing.
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

Come on Axis , why not a 960 with 1500 cm^2 ?

The 860 and the 890 have the same area.  The 890 is part of the new Broad Spectrum Carve wing series.  The 3 smaller BSC wings go on the black Fuse and the 3 bigger ones go on the Red Fuse.  There is a 970, 1060 and 1120 coming.  You should find some love there :).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 13, 2021, 07:35:51 AM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...

The 860 is magic with the 390 tail on the Short fuselage.  This is your feel good wing at 175 lbs.  Super easy, controlled, turny and fun. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 13, 2021, 08:19:04 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)

I am a bit disappointed, the S860  is now my goto foil for winging and I use my S920 under 17 knots for winging. I tried the S980 and I did not like the way it turns at all...
And the S1010 and S1150 are also not my thing.
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

Come on Axis , why not a 960 with 1500 cm^2 ?

YES!!! I want that. While I'm whining, I'd also like a 960 with a little more gullwing to it. I'll take both. I feel like Oliver in the play: "Could I have some more, please."

A bit ridiculous, I switched to Axis so I could make my own wings, so far all I've done is chop up a slightly wounded 1020 and make a wing that could lift Jabba the Hut. All the elements are in place to whip up whatever I want. Brother Bob has his CAM router whipping out gorgeous carvings of anything that pops into his mind and is a master of CAD. I could probably send him napkin drawings and get beautiful wood wings that I can vacuum bag carbon onto. I'm just a lazy fuck. But if Axis doesn't do that soon...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 13, 2021, 02:28:35 PM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...
I've ridden the 460, 400, and 390 with the 860 on an ultra short fuse numerous times (my go to front when there's some size and energy).

460: Fast, loose tail, that likes to be turned really hard or the tail wants to slip, slide a bit at lower speeds when trying to turn aggressively to make up for the lack of speed it wants/needs.

400: So far the most versatile that works in most conditions. Still fairly fast, but has more bite than the 460 in the turns, so is a little more forgiving, and super fun to really surf hard, and allows you to stay closer to the pocket than the 460 at times that wants to out run them at times.

390: Went from the 460 to to the 390 thinking I wanted less tail slide, and a little more bite from the tail. I got that, a bit too much in fact, and it seemed just way too slow to make the 860 work as well, so went back to to the 460 before I remembered that I had the 400 sitting in my van that I'd never tried on anything...and that's when I found it to be the best of both worlds between the speed of the 460, and the maneuverability of the the 390.

EDIT: This is my take of these tails in the surf....I don't wingding, so can't comment on how they differ or feel in that environment.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 13, 2021, 02:40:57 PM
The 860 and the 890 have the same area.  The 890 is part of the new Broad Spectrum Carve wing series.
Am I missing something? I know they have an 880 and a 980, but I've yet to see or hear about the 890 that's been mentioned here already a few times. ???
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 13, 2021, 02:54:22 PM
Hi Cali,

Yes.  The 880 and 980 are part of the new HPS (High Performance Speed) line.  There are 5 of these coming.  The 890 is part of the upcoming BSC (Broad Spectrum Carve) line.  There are 6 of these coming.  There is also the 1300 in the P&G (Pump and Glide) line.  12 new wings and 3 new tails. 

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 13, 2021, 03:13:21 PM
Cool, thanks admin. I got a chance to see the 1300 last summer in its R&D stage...and man that's a BIG wing! :o ;D

Looking forward to the 810 and 880 to try in the surf soon, and will just have to wait and see where the other BCS stuff might take us. 🤞👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 13, 2021, 04:15:34 PM
I've managed to kick my 1150 several times already. Maybe I could use a 1300 as a step to get back on the board.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 14, 2021, 12:06:21 AM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...

The 860 is magic with the 390 tail on the Short fuselage.  This is your feel good wing at 175 lbs.  Super easy, controlled, turny and fun.
I am 190 lbs / 86 kg

I used the 460 two days ago and the 390 yesterday with the 860 , 75 carbon mast and Short fuse.
Both days I was wel powered up , with the 460 I was on a 4m2 wing (20 knots), with the 390 I was on a 3m2 wing (25 knots)
The mast is too short when it gets really windy and the sea is very choppy, but I am waiting for the 86 mast..

Most notable was that  I breached a lot more with the 390 , one reason for that is probably 5 knots more wind.
But could it also be caused by more downforce from the 390?

Perhaps I should use a shim?
Or get the 760?
Or just move the foil a bit back in the tracks?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 14, 2021, 12:53:42 AM
The new HPS B Series foils are now up with specs, descriptions,  and pics on the Axis foils site.  Bottom of pg.1 and continued on pg.2  https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings  (https://axisfoils.com/collections/wing-foil-wings)

I am a bit disappointed, the S860  is now my goto foil for winging and I use my S920 under 17 knots for winging. I tried the S980 and I did not like the way it turns at all...
And the S1010 and S1150 are also not my thing.
I was hoping there would be a bigger S860 but it is all HA foils as far as I can see?
Perhaps the 890? But it will probably be less surface than the 860.

Come on Axis , why not a 960 with 1500 cm^2 ?

The 860 and the 890 have the same area.  The 890 is part of the new Broad Spectrum Carve wing series.  The 3 smaller BSC wings go on the black Fuse and the 3 bigger ones go on the Red Fuse.  There is a 970, 1060 and 1120 coming.  You should find some love there :).
I guess the 970 will have to be the one. If it has the same AR as the 810 its surface area will be 1465.
Nice that it will be on the red fuse...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 14, 2021, 01:16:10 AM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...
I've ridden the 460, 400, and 390 with the 860 on an ultra short fuse numerous times (my go to front when there's some size and energy).

460: Fast, loose tail, that likes to be turned really hard or the tail wants to slip, slide a bit at lower speeds when trying to turn aggressively to make up for the lack of speed it wants/needs.

400: So far the most versatile that works in most conditions. Still fairly fast, but has more bite than the 460 in the turns, so is a little more forgiving, and super fun to really surf hard, and allows you to stay closer to the pocket than the 460 at times that wants to out run them at times.

390: Went from the 460 to to the 390 thinking I wanted less tail slide, and a little more bite from the tail. I got that, a bit too much in fact, and it seemed just way too slow to make the 860 work as well, so went back to to the 460 before I remembered that I had the 400 sitting in my van that I'd never tried on anything...and that's when I found it to be the best of both worlds between the speed of the 460, and the maneuverability of the the 390.

EDIT: This is my take of these tails in the surf....I don't wingding, so can't comment on how they differ or feel in that environment.

Thanks , I will try the 400 tail next time and also the 370
I also sup foil but winging is so much easier...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 14, 2021, 03:06:05 AM
Can anybody advise me which tail to use in combo with the S860  for winging in more than 20 knots?

Don't care about being superfast, just want it to turn nicely...

The 860 is magic with the 390 tail on the Short fuselage.  This is your feel good wing at 175 lbs.  Super easy, controlled, turny and fun.
I am 190 lbs / 86 kg

I used the 460 two days ago and the 390 yesterday with the 860 , 75 carbon mast and Short fuse.
Both days I was wel powered up , with the 460 I was on a 4m2 wing (20 knots), with the 390 I was on a 3m2 wing (25 knots)
The mast is too short when it gets really windy and the sea is very choppy, but I am waiting for the 86 mast..

Most notable was that  I breached a lot more with the 390 , one reason for that is probably 5 knots more wind.
But could it also be caused by more downforce from the 390?

Perhaps I should use a shim?
Or get the 760?
Or just move the foil a bit back in the tracks?

Hi Soekip,

You and I are on the same program.  A loose, glidey feeling without hitches, and turns without requirements is what matters most to me.  Top end speed is secondary.  Quick acceleration is really nice, though, and resistance free glide is great.

My experience on the 860 is a little different than yours.  I find that wing almost impossible to breach.  I am using the 960 mast, though, and only for winging. 

I also have had a different experience with the 400 vs 390.  For me the 390 is a much quicker tail.  The 400 and the 390 have the same incidence and thickness but the 390 has less chord (80 vs 90), and length.

I wouldn't call the 860 and 390 a speed kit but it is quick enough to be super fun.  The 460 wasn't for me so I sold it.  In hindsight I should have cut it down.  I am likely going to cut my 420 down to 400 and then 380 to see how that goes.

My guess is that I am just  not a high aspect guy.  I enjoy trying it but in time I always gravitate back to flowy fun.   

The 890 and 810 sound great and I have super high hopes for those.  I am hanging on to the 860 and 760 because I love those two and could happily spend another season right there. 





Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 14, 2021, 03:19:23 AM
You can see the changes between the v1 and v2 carbon masts in this photo.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ_2kQqr2cF/?igshid=1x44vxde7trhb
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 14, 2021, 03:27:00 AM
Those look sweet.  They look a lot thinner and even more refined near the plate.  Plate looks thinner as well?  Can't wait for the 960's to arrive. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 14, 2021, 09:05:16 AM
I'm fond of the 340, especially with the 1000 or 1150 front wing. It's a little nutty with the 860, but if you want something that turns fast I guess it's okay. I was originally using it with the 1020 and didn't care for it, but with the 1000 it feels balanced, not too slide-y, and makes for a responsive setup. I thought it would be cool with the 860 but it feels like I forgot to put the stabilizer on. How would I know what that feels like?

What would you suppose.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 15, 2021, 04:46:22 AM
You can see the changes between the v1 and v2 carbon masts in this photo.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ_2kQqr2cF/?igshid=1x44vxde7trhb

Evan the Axis owner comments saying that covers for carbon masts are "overrated"  ::) ;D

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 15, 2021, 07:57:15 AM
Legs from old wetsuits make good mast covers for pretty carbon masts.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on January 15, 2021, 10:38:42 AM
Foiling NY's review of the 1300 is up, (obviously done last October), with some interesting conclusions. Faster than expected but low speed performance is not quite up to that of the 1150. The only wing thus far that is kept aloft by the second wake of the jetski (in the comments).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xvAnM591VE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: supnorte on January 15, 2021, 10:48:50 AM
The new Axis 1300 front wing wasn't design with flatwater pumping in mind. It was made for ligh wind wingfoiling and downwind, and it should be absolutely smoking on those conditions. And that why it's not very similiar to the 1150 (different aspect ratio, lower area, volume and also different foil section).

Nevertheless it's an amazing wing for pumping and surfing small bumps.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 15, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50839383676_70f82ae723_c.jpg)

Rode the Kane tail (shim in) with the HPS980. With 6m in not so great wind. Very loose and surfy. But it whistles, sometimes deafening loud. Thought for a NY minute, I was king of the world hitting 20.6 mph. Then Jacky informed me she hit 21 mph on the 420 tail without shim. She kicked my ass.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 15, 2021, 03:50:52 PM
I know why it whistles. I bet you do too.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 15, 2021, 04:05:10 PM
I know why it whistles. I bet you do too.

It whistles a little all the time, then it has weird moments of super loud whistling unlike anything from anybody. This makes me wonder if two things are going on. The more common whistle from the tailing edge. Then the big gap and bad fit at the front is making the super loud noise.

If Axis can make quiet wings, I want everyone to make quiet wings.

If they are made by MauiCNC, they should be perfect.

Iíll fix it. I just donít have lots of spare time to fix it.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 15, 2021, 04:26:10 PM
If Axis can make quiet wings, I want everyone to make quiet wings.
I had the 420 with the 910 "humming" at times today. But not as loud or consistent as I'd get from my most all of my GF setups...when other guys with GFs never made a peep. Only learned about filing the GF stabs trailing edge about the time I was transitioning over, so never bothered with it. But all-in-all it's never been that big of an annoyance to me, so an occasional hum never bothered me that much, and when it does or did happen...figured it just let others know I was coming, and to get the heck outta the way! LOL... ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 16, 2021, 04:54:40 PM
First wave session with Axis.  1010 is the smallest I have and my concern that it would be too big today was valid.  The end is not pretty but the ride was fun.  Now in the market for a smaller foil.  Leaning towards a 910.  Want to stay with red fuse for now.

https://www.facebook.com/phil.seu.58/videos/895166571255458
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2021, 09:03:23 AM
Phils, at your size the 860 will be nutty fun.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 17, 2021, 03:02:20 PM
More from yesterday's wave session.  1010/440.  Clip I posted earlier was inverted. 

https://www.facebook.com/phil.seu.58/videos/895739611198154
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on January 18, 2021, 11:03:07 AM
First wave session with Axis.  1010 is the smallest I have and my concern that it would be too big today was valid.  The end is not pretty but the ride was fun.  Now in the market for a smaller foil.  Leaning towards a 910.  Want to stay with red fuse for now.

https://www.facebook.com/phil.seu.58/videos/895166571255458
You can see the front wing and stab break the surface right before you go in.  It looked like you were plenty forward.  What to do to prevent that?  It's happened to me with this same set up.  I don't like these type of falls.  They hurt.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on January 18, 2021, 11:56:55 AM
Go slower. That's probably that wings speed limit. At some point you can't hold the wing in the water anymore.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 18, 2021, 12:24:20 PM
Headmount--a longer mast helps, though if you get carried away you just fall further. Wings don't really have a speed limit but lift increases as the square of the speed. Go from 2mph to 4mph and the list goes from x (the foil factor) times 4 to x times 16. Step up to 8mph and it's x times 64.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 18, 2021, 02:07:07 PM
......

You can see the front wing and stab break the surface right before you go in.  It looked like you were plenty forward.  What to do to prevent that?  It's happened to me with this same set up.  I don't like these type of falls.  They hurt.

You are exactly right.  I crash due to ventilation because at the speed I was traveling, I could not overcome the lift of the foil with my body weight.  So the prevention is to either go slower by carving on the face of the wave which I really couldn't do because all my effort was directed towards keeping the foil down (and maybe some skill deficit) or use a smaller foil.  After that session, I ordered a 910 and an 860.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on January 18, 2021, 03:26:54 PM
You can be further forward on the board. Rear foot should be forward of the mast. Get about 3" forward and you'll keep it down.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 18, 2021, 03:40:10 PM
The efficiency at controlling the foil is not ideal. Bending the knees is the wrong approach. You want to be upright.

Kai Lenny talked about this in the early days of foiling. Stand up.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 18, 2021, 04:39:03 PM
The efficiency at controlling the foil is not ideal. Bending the knees is the wrong approach. You want to be upright.

Kai Lenny talked about this in the early days of foiling. Stand up.

Probably a mistake to post that video if one's basic technique is going to be judged by it.   It is hard to tell by the video but it was a totally out of control run at a very high speed on waves which were too big for the 1010/440 setup at my weight.  I am desperately trying to get my weight as forward and as low as possible.  There was no way to move my feet forward once the ride started.  If I stood up, my crash would have been instantaneous.  99 %of the time when I am foiling, I am upright but I think my response was the best possible in the situation I was in. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 18, 2021, 06:49:21 PM
Yeah, a 1010 is a bit big for surf foiling. I've used my 1150 a few times in punky surf, but it's not an easy ride, and it's actually pretty draggy, so it's hard to catch little stuff. And then you get up and it's hard to keep it down, most of my rides with it end with a crash.

The 1000 is much friendlier, and if the waves have some punch, the 860 is a delight. It takes some real speed to get up in the air at 215 (probably 225 with my wetsuit) but once I'm up I can just concentrate on the ride and enjoy the smooth, easy turns.

The other thing to pay close attention to is the incidence angle. I've started decreasing it to 2 degrees in the pitchy Cali semi-shore break and it's a revelation. Again, it's harder to get up, but once I'm up my front foot is on top of the handle of the board and my back foot is about 10 inches behind it--about five inches forward of the mast. Controlling pitch feels almost automatic.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 18, 2021, 07:30:09 PM
After that session, I ordered a 910 and an 860.
Great call...they're both awesome, and both completely different. The 860 is a carving machine (w/the 460 to loosen it up a bit, and the more you turn the better it works)...the 910 (w/ the 420 to speed it up a bit) still turns on a dime, but pumps and glides like a beast.

Both are super fun, and have sorta made my 900/390 previous favorite a dust collector...for now. :D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: headmount on January 18, 2021, 09:06:54 PM
The efficiency at controlling the foil is not ideal. Bending the knees is the wrong approach. You want to be upright.

Kai Lenny talked about this in the early days of foiling. Stand up.

Probably a mistake to post that video if one's basic technique is going to be judged by it.   It is hard to tell by the video but it was a totally out of control run at a very high speed on waves which were too big for the 1010/440 setup at my weight.  I am desperately trying to get my weight as forward and as low as possible.  There was no way to move my feet forward once the ride started.  If I stood up, my crash would have been instantaneous.  99 %of the time when I am foiling, I am upright but I think my response was the best possible in the situation I was in.
 
Definitely not a mistake to post that video.  You can't learn much by seeing everything go perfect.  So I really appreciate videos like yours.  Thank you for posting it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 19, 2021, 02:34:34 AM
Phils,

I don't know what these guys are talking about.  That was a sick ride!  You are just hearing jealousy because they know that if they got in that crouch for that long there is only a 7 percent chance they would be able to get back up.  :) 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 19, 2021, 04:38:53 AM
Haha, standing back up was a proud moment....I look at the camera thinking "I hope you caught that".

Anyway, enough about me.  The topic is Axis.  I had been trying to stall deciding on the Black stuff but after this weekend, went deeper into Red by adding a 910, 860, 420 (and carbon 86 mast)  to my 1150 and 1010.

Ultimate target is a setup for another summer of downwind winging and paddling at the Gorge.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 19, 2021, 07:56:05 AM
By George, I think you've got it. If and when your wallet refills you might consider a 340 tail, which I rarely see in anyone else's quiver, but I think it's a great one. Especially with the 860. I'm sticking with Red for the foreseeable future. I'll switch when I feel I've mastered what I have. At my current rate of progress that will happen around 2030, concurrent with finishing the major projects in my shop. Or maybe 2040. 2050 is a possibility.

Admin grossly over-estimates how likely it is that I would be able to resume an upright posture. the two best foil rippers I know (other than Kai and Austin) are Eddie Ogata and Junya McGurn. They both get so low that it makes my knees ache just to look at them. Dave Kalama gets fairly low as well, though nothing like those two. Austin Kalama might as well, but I refuse to watch him foil--it makes me too jealous. Most of the young guns seem to stand more upright, but they are so relaxed doing things that I can't do that they could eat a sandwich or take selfies and read their friends InstaStuff.

Incidentally, in my experience carving on the face of the wave does exactly the opposite of "slowing you down". Dave K told me "If you can't pump, turn." Most of my falls from the top of the ladder (top of the wave, overfoiling, falling to the bottom) is because I got going faster than I can control my foil by turning on the top of the wave. To me, it feels like the throttle got stuck. I survive bottom turns much better by running too far out of the wave, getting my turn done before the wave catches me, and then pumping to speed up before it rolls me off sideways. Not elegant, but it sort of works. I call it the Geezer Bottom Turn. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on January 19, 2021, 09:50:09 AM
This is Junya, bending his knees just a bit:

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p843x403/136133280_10159032293523809_8783715439949625441_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=Asf9xj5aGw8AX_3igmn&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&tp=6&oh=1a2c968a600e7478f8036dfaf86acbf6&oe=602D9749)

And Eddie:
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/127534265_4531408623545524_3264664551975919369_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=174925&_nc_ohc=K5WpPTrPGKIAX_R0Q4W&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=db85f0fe4351662c22b6dff0d7fada7b&oe=602C6795)

Dave, not so much. the only guy I know with worse taste in hats than me:
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/120531763_10158795504163809_4527577113575322924_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2eUYrYziA-oAX8BPtb0&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=1ad11f37df52530952381bb35fd66f0a&oe=602DDD15)

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 19, 2021, 10:10:59 AM
That wasnít the point. Once a foiler starts squatting, the ability to control pitch is reduced. Thatís all that I was trying to imply. Poorly I guess.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on January 19, 2021, 10:21:58 AM
Early on in my learn to foil experience I switched to a smaller high performance foil.  This enabled me to continue using my inefficient technique, until I went out on bigger days and my inadequate technique surfaced again as did my wing right before I did a high speed face plant.  I eventually went back to bigger more stable lifty wings and this time I played with my stance and made stabilizer adjustments until I learned how to manage bigger wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 19, 2021, 10:23:52 AM
I'll switch when I feel I've mastered what I have.

Haha, not buying that.

I have a buddy, who rides what you ride. He declined to test the HPS when Evan was here because fast was not his thing. He only tested the BSS and decided he wanted those foils. Surfing is his thing.

He wanted to try my board last week, but my HPS 980 was bolted to it. He was forced to use it as is. He about crapped his pants. Heís all in on the HPS bandwagon now.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 19, 2021, 10:30:30 AM
One of many beautiful moves in this vid:

https://youtu.be/4OAjvFXgBjg?t=48
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Admin on January 19, 2021, 10:33:57 AM
I'll switch when I feel I've mastered what I have.

Haha, not buying that.

My first thought was, "wonder who is using Bill's computer".
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 19, 2021, 11:13:47 AM
Incidentally, in my experience carving on the face of the wave does exactly the opposite of "slowing you down". Dave K told me "If you can't pump, turn." Most of my falls from the top of the ladder (top of the wave, overfoiling, falling to the bottom) is because I got going faster than I can control my foil by turning on the top of the wave. To me, it feels like the throttle got stuck. I survive bottom turns much better by running too far out of the wave, getting my turn done before the wave catches me, and then pumping to speed up before it rolls me off sideways. Not elegant, but it sort of works. I call it the Geezer Bottom Turn.
Yeah, the bold is my experience also. At times with the 860 it seems a little doggy speed wise compared to the 900, so when heading down the line to setup a turn, I'll sometimes "pump" the wing by making some quick, successive turns (not complete top/bottom ones, just partial up and down the face) to pick up speed...that I eventually work to the top, and then nose down into my true, subsequent bottom to the top turn.

Also, the above "nose down" is just that, I feel as though I have to "dive bomb" it down the face so as to not over foil it, and have the wing breach as I'm picking up speed in (with) the turn, and the wing wants to lift, thus levels out through it, and I'm back looking to hit the other side with speed and height again.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 19, 2021, 03:12:55 PM
So beautiful I had to share. Evan sent this to me a few hours ago.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50854320676_07f63544ab_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 19, 2021, 05:23:19 PM
So beautiful I had to share. Evan sent this to me a few hours ago.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50854320676_07f63544ab_c.jpg)
what's his preferred setup for wing ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 19, 2021, 06:28:06 PM
what's his preferred setup for wing ?

He was winging the HPS, short fuse and 420 tail when I rode with him. It looks like the same in this photo.



Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 19, 2021, 07:54:45 PM
Very nice, looking forward to testing the new wings when he makes down south to our neck of the woods in the next month or two.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dontsink on January 19, 2021, 09:10:10 PM
IMHO what Kai might have meant was that you do not flex your knees on a foil as much as when on a planing surfboard.But shortboard surfers flex and extend a lot,all the time.
If you google "kai lenny foiling"-images you can see that there is always quite a bit of bend in his knees.

Even Alan Cadiz ,blasting on a wingfoil in protected water has some very noticeble bend in his knees (minute 2:06 )
https://youtu.be/MbGShPNzsSk


But i think i get what DW meant because on foil it feels good to use a bit of a more rigid leg stance,it adds a very stable feeling in pitch.

In the vid you were just doing what the situation demanded with the foot position you had, it looked quite good actually :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 23, 2021, 05:17:55 PM
Question any riders in the 200 plus club that have tried the new CF Axis mast wondering if itís worth plucking down the extra $6-700 on it compared to the tried and true 19mm aluminum mast which for HW riders rocks especially with big wings. Also any weight comparisons on the 75 or 86cm masts compared to the 19mm alum masts with the doo dad base plate etc what are we talking weight wise? just donít want to piss more $ away if it ainít worth it for a HW thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on January 23, 2021, 06:59:05 PM
I haven't seen it personally. At that weight I'd say not worth it. Rob Vonpiros on instagram says the carbon is negligibly lighter than the 19mm aluminum mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on January 24, 2021, 12:53:11 AM
I just weighed the 75 with doodad and baseplate and two 70 mm bolts and the 76V1 carbon with two 25 mm  bolts and they both are 2.1 kg
Title: Re: Axis Foils Carbon Mast
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 24, 2021, 03:45:24 AM
You do carbon for the feel, not weight. After spending a long time on carbon, then riding aluminum, the dead feel of aluminum jumped out at me.

Rob posted the following on the Aussie forum a while back. I saved it, because it helped me understand the feeling I was having.

ďFirst up I'm not a team rider or ambassador for Axis. Yes agree it's a moderate weight saving but the tapered carbon mast gives flex down low on the fuselage and doesn't flex like a Aluminium mast from the mast plate . Similar to a surfboard fin only flexing on the tip. This gives you way more control on a loaded turn . Same goes for all the other carbon mast on the market , other than the GoFoil which is by far the stiffest on the market with virtually no flex at all but no weight saving over a comparable stiff aluminium mast . Not knocking the GoFoil it's super stiff , it's what you want to feel when you ride . You won't no rock n roll on your Sup , it's the stiffest .
Controlled mast flex down low feels really good and when reaching on the ding it pushes you forward on a reach . When you unload the pressure it all stays under your feet , compare that to a loaded Aluminium mast it snaps back and is really unsettling. For the prone guys it gives you way more surfing feel rolling in and out of turns . Way heaps easier to control. The tapered carbon mast won't pendulum under your feet like a aluminium mast on your Sup . For the punters probably not worth the extra money to go carbon but for the performance riders , it's a must have . IMHO
Ē
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 24, 2021, 09:28:25 AM
Funny thing for me after coming from all CF foils from the get go in early kite foiling days swore to myself that Iíd never get a aluminum foil after I had a not so good older aluminum foil few years back,that was until I tried the Axis for winging last year then discovered how well it worked for me supfoiling 3-4 months back been riding them exclusively for both winging and supfoiling. Since laughabley now I find myself questioning a CF mast which is all I used for years MHL for kiting and supfoiling and then gofoil for supfoiling which have both been collecting dust in the garage since really liking the  Axis performance.So think I will take a chance on the Axis CF mast since all I used to ride supfoiling was MHL and GF foils and sure Axis CF will be on par with them or better especially since they are almost $300 more than say a MHL mast.Now have to solve my dilemma of getting either 76cm or 86cm as I currently ride 75cm supfoiling and a 85 cm winging 19mm aluminum hmmm always something,kinda leaning towards the 86cm as I can use for both disciplines but the 75cm is better locally supfoiling hard to drop $1600 for 2 but maybe way to go,maybe have to sell some of my old kites to recoup the costs since I have not even launched my kites since last may of 2020 when my winging addiction started in earnest,have some Naish boxers for foiling and pivot for sale if anyone interested
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 24, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
So here's the thing, Rob is talking about "pendulum" flex, and I'm more concerned with "torsional" (twisting) flex that I immediately felt in a turn with the 76V1, and none at all with the aluminum 75cm.

Yes, if I stand with both feet on the rails and wiggle the board side to side with a big wing underneath, sure I can feel a little pendulum feel in the aluminum mast - which is about a 1/10 of what I felt when doing that on any carbon mast I've been on (the GF Maliko being the worst) - but I don't foil surf with my feet on the rails, and I don't turn the board/foil that way either.

It was the torsional flex that got kept me off GoFoil (didn't realize it until riding Axis aluminum), and the Axis 76V1 didn't win me over either with its - while less than the GF - torsional flex underfoot either. While Rob talks about loading and unloading of the flex, I felt it as a delay in my inputs to the wings below me with carbon.

So when I'd go to make a turn, it felt that while I was getting the board to start making the turn, the wings underneath me were still wanting to go straight, and it was that fraction(s) of a second delay caused by the torsional flex that threw off my timing just enough to make the turns feel much less controlled and instantaneous than I feel with the 75cm aluminum mast.

That said, in talking with a couple other guys surfing the 76V1 on prone boards, they said that they didn't feel that same torsional flex with it, which led me to believe that some of it might be that I'm on a SUP foil using a front strap that I use to help pull the board around to help with my turns, and that that added leveraging is what's creating the two different feels we were getting from the same carbon mast.

So I think a lot of whether you like a carbon mast - regardless of brand - will have to do with how you surf the foil, and what feel(s) you'll get out of the Axis carbon mast you're thinking about. The new V2 seems to be laid up differently in cloth direction (vertical vs diagonal IIRC), and just checking the torsional flex on the beach with it, it seems to be much more rigid than the V1, but still not as rigid or stiff as the aluminum...but I've yet to actually test that out in the water to say for sure.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 24, 2021, 03:33:27 PM
I saw someone who had the new 420 tail. It looks rather.... big. Would prefer a smaller one, was there talk of a smaller one the same style ? Can't remember what size... 380 ?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on January 24, 2021, 04:08:42 PM
The 420 is the smaller one. The 460 is the bigger flat one. Both of those are supposed to be solid carbon so you can chop shop them down to whatever size you prefer.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 24, 2021, 05:29:28 PM
The 420 is the smaller one. The 460 is the bigger flat one. Both of those are supposed to be solid carbon so you can chop shop them down to whatever size you prefer.
You wouldn't chop down the 420 as it has winglets.

There was a comment somewhere about smaller versions of those 2.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 24, 2021, 05:34:30 PM
Kane tail on the 910

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKckCXUn2ry/?igshid=l269eyg0v5wa
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: unclesaltdog on January 24, 2021, 05:47:35 PM
The 420 is the smaller one. The 460 is the bigger flat one. Both of those are supposed to be solid carbon so you can chop shop them down to whatever size you prefer.
You wouldn't chop down the 420 as it has winglets.

There was a comment somewhere about smaller versions of those 2.

Yep there is a smaller 380, that is like the 420, on the way.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 25, 2021, 03:46:17 AM
Hey Dwight what's the verdict on the Kane tail vs 420 for HPS?  8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 25, 2021, 03:48:11 AM
Hey Dwight what's the verdict on the Kane tail vs 420 for HPS?  8)

Kane tail much quicker turning.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on January 25, 2021, 02:35:56 PM
Kane takes a little more effort to get on foil than the 420. The 420 feels faster.

Radical turns, the Kane, for general winging, the 420 is my choice.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 25, 2021, 06:38:09 PM
Kane takes a little more effort to get on foil than the 420. The 420 feels faster.

Radical turns, the Kane, for general winging, the 420 is my choice.

Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on January 27, 2021, 09:42:59 PM
Like to hear about the new BSC 1060 FLkiter do you think it be a good light wind wing for a big guy? Currently ride the 1150 in flatter lighter days and 920 when windier, just got the 860 few weeks back but have not winged it yet, but like what I see spec wise on the 1060 looks like a 1020 on steroids! You think it be a good choice as the 1020 is great learning wing but runs it coarse pretty quick just too slow draggy, but the 1060 certainly appears interesting like to hear about it!thanks👍
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 28, 2021, 01:32:23 PM
Seeking opinions on back wings as I don't want to go thru this whole Topic to find answers. 

My experience is with the 1010/440 and 1010/420.  I love the speed and glide of the 420 but it is too neutral on a wave for my taste.  I like the "feed back" I get from front foot pressure when things get fast and steep but not as much as with the 440.  Any suggestions for something in between?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on January 29, 2021, 03:00:12 AM
I have narrowed my choice to the 390 or 370 to pair with PNG front wings.  I suspect either will be just fine.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 29, 2021, 12:57:49 PM
I have narrowed my choice to the 390 or 370 to pair with PNG front wings.  I suspect either will be just fine.
Either is a good choice, and "will be just fine" as you say. The difference felt more as speed, and "stickiness" if you will.

The 370 is faster, and turns really well...as long as you like turning faster also (meaning not trying to slow down at all before and through your turn).

The 390 is "sticky" in that it holds really well (slightly better than the 370), but is also slower in comparison, and why you can slow it down slightly before and through the turn, and it'll still have the drive/lift for you throughout the turn, whereas the 370 once it gets slowed, has a tendency to drop of foil easier.

So it all becomes a matter of what you're planning on using it for, and how you like to ride. I personally like to go faster, and (try) to turn harder, so the 370 (and 420) have replaced the 390 for myself.

But the 390 is the stab I pair up with the 900 for experienced riders who are curious about the Axis stuff compared to their current stuff, and are demoing it for the first time...all come back smiling at how "user friendly" that setup is.

Less experienced riders I'll put on the 1000/440 just so they're not too overwhelmed by the speed of the 900 in comparison to the lower aspect stuff they're usually riding to start out with. The 1000/440 is a good taste of higher aspect wings, but not too fast that they're scared off by them. Most come back really liking the flatter forward projection and easy glide of the 1000/440 compared to the more porpoising, up and down ride they get from their lower aspect wings.

Hope that helps some.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on January 29, 2021, 09:43:43 PM
Throw a shim on the 390, speeds it up
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on January 29, 2021, 11:12:21 PM
Throw a shim on the 390, speeds it up
Yes, I use a -1 shim on the 390 and 370 on the 900, but not with 910 or with the 460 or 420 on the 900. Thanks "bigmtn", good point that I forgot to mention. But with or w/o the shim, the 390 is still slower than the 370...in my experiences anyway.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on January 30, 2021, 02:46:27 AM
I also have a shim on my 390.

Friend went to buy the HPS980 production model. It's a different surface and outline to last year's ones  ???
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 06, 2021, 02:48:20 AM
Friend went to buy the HPS980 production model. It's a different surface and outline to last year's ones  ???
From Seabreeze:

I had a nice talk with the US distributor about this. They made about 80-100 of the V1 980 wing, but during testing they found the other sizes of the HPS series performed a little better in the surf, and they had more rounded wing tips. So they modified the tips of the 980 (V2) to make it better in the surf and more similar to the other sizes. So the more rounded wing tips is where the extra cm2 comes from. The foil section is same in both versions. The guys on the V1 love them and say they are super fast, but the downwind guys say they are really hard to get the V1 wings back up if they come off foil. V2 has better low end lift and is a bit more user friendly in the surf.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 06, 2021, 04:22:28 PM
Hey foilers what's up! Here's a review of all the sick axis stuff. All the wings are "sick"!

https://youtu.be/-ZioXlclGhY
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 13, 2021, 02:44:21 AM
Fist outing on the HPS880 with 420 stab. Hit 20.9knots speed in non flat conditions. I reckon I can get another 2/3 knots.

Short fuselage is waaaaaayy less twitchy than the ultra short but obviously less turning.

Impressed I felt no skidding with the stab too.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on February 13, 2021, 07:12:01 PM
I just had my first session on the 1050 hps. Flukey storm wind but gusting to 20 and up on foil for 45 minutes. I'm 180lbs and had it paired with the 460 stab, ultra short black fuse and 86cm mast on the HIPE 5'3 110L with mast all the way back. Holding it up to the 980 it appears to be exactly the same shape just bigger. I have been struggling with crappy winter wind and the 980 for the past couple months. The 1050 gets up 30% easier. It also has a much slower stall speed than its little brother. It felt more or less as fast as the 980. The turning took a little more effort(which isn't saying a lot bc the 980 turns with slight ankle twitches) but still a super fun carver. It shares some of the carving feelings of the 1010 which is a similar size. I foiled into a no wind hole and pumped it 300 yards without much effort. I haven't felt like I could do that on the 980 yet. The speed the 1050 went when pumping was fast and easy to maintain. It was way easier to get up on foil than 980. I will use the 980 when its windy enough but this will likely replace my 1150 for light, crappy wind days which are often in winter here in Reno. I think the 1150 gets going only slightly easier than the 1050. Once on foil, the 1050 blows away the performance of the 1150. I am stoked to get it out on some bigger windswell to see how it surfs. Send It!!!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 14, 2021, 06:04:25 PM
Shit. I do NOT want to hear that.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 15, 2021, 03:56:16 AM
Yeah that 880HPS is quite special as I had a blast kite foiling with it too. I did not think the design would work well for kite but the smaller sizes are great for kite because it's FAST and glides so much. It hardly breaches compared to all S series wings. Just way more efficient....

Can't wait to try it in light winds both kite and wing to see whether I need a bigger size at all.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on February 15, 2021, 10:11:04 AM
Shit. I do NOT want to hear that.
Just to add to the confusion add the 1060 BSC in the picture for winging,had 2 sessions on the 1060 and albeit bit early to toot its horn but so far in pretty challenging conditions 15-25 mph increased to 35 G with (Ensis 5.2 then 3.5 wings)or more maybe? I am pretty impressed with it paired with a 420 rear,short fuse and 85cm mast it gets going plenty fast on par with the 1150 but for me being a heavier rider find it handles in the waves much better than the 1150 for me with the lower AR really nice stable glide on waves and transitions.Looking forward to trying it on the lower end of the range soon but really pretty happy with its performance which makes me think that perhaps the 1120 might be the low end wing us big guys are looking for in light conditions kinda a suped up 1020,so once again more choices from Axis for us to spin our heads and wallets, gotta hand it to them they are really knocking it out of the park!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 16, 2021, 03:31:22 AM
I had difficulties getting the 880 up in light winds (obviously). Debating whether I should complement my quiver with a 980 or 1050 for my 77kg.
Loved the 980 when I used it a number of times last year but wondering whether the extra surface would come in handy if the characteristics are close to the 980 v2?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on February 16, 2021, 11:34:02 AM
I would love it if everyone would give their ride reports by distinguishing between:

1 - how a foil feels when turning (loose, responsive, maneuverable, etc...).

AND

2 - and the foils ability to actually do a turn (as in needs just the right section to carve a tight turn, or can lay it over anytime and carve rail to rail without any concern of tip stall).

With all these new wings it's difficult to decide, I'm hoping I get a text from Evan soon saying he's got a van full of the new wings to demo...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on February 16, 2021, 12:02:47 PM
I've got that text. My arm is broken. I cried.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on February 16, 2021, 12:04:02 PM
I got that text. My arm is broken. I cried.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 16, 2021, 01:38:13 PM
I had difficulties getting the 880 up in light winds (obviously). Debating whether I should complement my quiver with a 980 or 1050 for my 77kg.
Loved the 980 when I used it a number of times last year but wondering whether the extra surface would come in handy if the characteristics are close to the 980 v2?

All the HPS wings feel the same 880, 930, 980, 1050 as all are v2s.

Only the old 980 v1 feels different. There were never any v1s in the other sizes.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 16, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
I had difficulties getting the 880 up in light winds (obviously). Debating whether I should complement my quiver with a 980 or 1050 for my 77kg.
Loved the 980 when I used it a number of times last year but wondering whether the extra surface would come in handy if the characteristics are close to the 980 v2?

All the HPS wings feel the same 880, 930, 980, 1050 as all are v2s.

Only the old 980 v1 feels different. There were never any v1s in the other sizes.
yep I know that's why I'm asking whether the v2 is much different to the v1 which I tried  :D

A tiny bit more surface on v2 from the change of tips outline to make it consistent with the rest of the line up and improve surfing feel apparently.

I am thinking 1050 though. And replace the 920 with it for SUP.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on February 16, 2021, 05:45:57 PM
1050 is my favorite for sup right now but a big jump from the 920. The 1060 is the step up from the 920 which has lower stall rate, easier to use.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 16, 2021, 06:47:28 PM
1050 is my favorite for sup right now but a big jump from the 920. The 1060 is the step up from the 920 which has lower stall rate, easier to use.
thanks for that.
SUP and kite are a distant secondary activities with wing being #1 hence my preference for HPS 8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on February 16, 2021, 06:57:52 PM
If winging is your main objective, the 1050 is the way to go. For winging 1050/930 are my main set ups and then when it nukes, the 700.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 17, 2021, 05:11:40 AM
If winging is your main objective, the 1050 is the way to go. For winging 1050/930 are my main set ups and then when it nukes, the 700.
thanks. 1050 it is!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 19, 2021, 03:08:38 AM
https://youtu.be/kePOLzsujsM
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on February 21, 2021, 11:58:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVwq9gZFYVg
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 23, 2021, 06:33:09 AM
If you make it to the end, flkiter makes an appearance

https://youtu.be/ef0kpjgMTLQ
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on February 25, 2021, 06:50:07 AM
While I was up visiting the Cocoa Beach crew, my buddy Rush shot a few vids on quick reviews of the different wings and random stuff so I'll post them as he edits them.
Setting up foil for tuning
https://youtu.be/XsmyyipPb0s
1060
https://youtu.be/Vqjdcrv-IeI
1020
https://youtu.be/gW4ZRHXfeyw
1050
https://youtu.be/Sc7VL773ptc
1150
https://youtu.be/oPlVMyOPh78

Any feedback or critique, I always like to hear. These are just quick vids and I'm sure I missed some info but trying to keep it short and informative.





Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on February 25, 2021, 07:21:09 AM
Nick -- great videos.

We need you to start your own thread where you can put the videos you do.

Please do videos on some of the other Axis foils (980 etc.) and brief reviews of all the wind wings you have tried.

Also more technique videos would be great.

You're a great resource.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 25, 2021, 10:44:15 AM
My buddy who is around 210 lbs, and 70 yrs old, wings the 1150 as is main ride. Well he got enough demo time on the new 1060 BSC to be blown away. He bought it. Says it makes his life so much easier. Now his jibes are automatic and easy. Speed he thought, might be better than his 1150. Thinking of you PonoBill.  ;D

Then I let him try my 1050 HPS. Again he was blown away. Now heís thinking he needs that one too.

Another buddy around 160lbs, who wings the 920 and 900 as his quiver, took my HPS 980 for a ride. The HPS 980 is now going to be his one foil quiver. He went nuts ripping turns and riding fast when he demoed it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on February 25, 2021, 11:20:21 AM
If you make it to the end, flkiter makes an appearance

https://youtu.be/ef0kpjgMTLQ
I didn't make it  till the end ...
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on February 25, 2021, 01:19:48 PM
I have the 910 which I love and covers a huge range for me, Iím 77 kg. I have been thinking of the  PNG1010 or the Broad Spectrum1060 for the lighter end of my range and when the winds a bit inconsistent. I also donít want to buy the black series gear as Iíve only had my Axis set up a couple of months. So what dya think?

Donít really want to go as big as the 1150 as I had the Moses W1100 which I found too big.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Thatspec on February 25, 2021, 05:23:26 PM
I have the 910 which I love and covers a huge range for me, Iím 77 kg. I have been thinking of the  PNG1010 or the Broad Spectrum1060 for the lighter end of my range and when the winds a bit inconsistent. I also donít want to buy the black series gear as Iíve only had my Axis set up a couple of months. So what dya think?

Donít really want to go as big as the 1150 as I had the Moses W1100 which I found too big.

Cheers

Mike

The 1010 was my one wing quiver for winging last season at 87Kg. A few times I was wishing for a 910 in the 30+ wind and waves but we get such variable conditions over the course of a downwinder, better to have too much. It was great with the 390 tail and now with the 420 even better. Little penalty on the low end and noticeably faster at the high end.

I'd love to have an 1150 too but feel like the 1010 is big enough.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on February 25, 2021, 05:53:43 PM
My buddy who is around 210 lbs, and 70 yrs old, wings the 1150 as is main ride. Well he got enough demo time on the new 1060 BSC to be blown away. He bought it. Says it makes his life so much easier. Now his jibes are automatic and easy. Speed he thought, might be better than his 1150. Thinking of you PonoBill.  ;D

Then I let him try my 1050 HPS. Again he was blown away. Now heís thinking he needs that one too.

Another buddy around 160lbs, who wings the 920 and 900 as his quiver, took my HPS 980 for a ride. The HPS 980 is now going to be his one foil quiver. He went nuts ripping turns and riding fast when he demoed it.
[/quote/]

Couldnít agree more on the 1060 as Iíve have quite a few hours on it and Iím a believer,excellent wing especially if your in the heavier class 200+ but for all I know maybe it goes just as well for lighter riders too,just canít say enough about this wing just glides and turns so well,and is so reliable in the sense it rarely gets a mind of its own like the HA 1150 which in waves Iím not the biggest fan of,for me the lower AR than my 1150 just works so much better for me.I pushed it to the limits today offshore wind 20-30 G over 35 with 3.5 Ensis and it still behaves like a champ,mostly riding it with the 420 and must say itís right up there speed wise with my 1150.If you are going to stay with red fuse highly recommend the 1060 really stoked that Axis thinks a bit outside the box and delivers on a lower aspect wing going on a tangent with the trend all in the HA direction that seems most foil companies are heading these days these tad lower AR for me just perform much better in the waves for me personally,might be interested in selling my 1150 now as itís in dust collecting mode lately as it just will not go in challenging conditions where my 1060 will go with ease
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on February 25, 2021, 06:24:37 PM
I have the 910 which I love and covers a huge range for me, Iím 77 kg. I have been thinking of the  PNG1010 or the Broad Spectrum1060 for the lighter end of my range and when the winds a bit inconsistent. I also donít want to buy the black series gear as Iíve only had my Axis set up a couple of months. So what dya think?

Donít really want to go as big as the 1150 as I had the Moses W1100 which I found too big.

Cheers

Mike

The 1150 is way more responsive than the Moses but, the 1060 will carve better with the down turned tips. if you were picking just one wing then I would say go 1010 but  to add to your 910 then you can't go wrong with 1060 or 1150.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on February 25, 2021, 11:00:54 PM
I took the 700 out with the wing today. OMG that foil is fun! Super fast, and turns like crazy. Can't wait to get it on some real waves. I was thinking of getting the moses 800 and 1000, but now I've lost interest. The 700 is like a formula one car for the waves!

(165lbs)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on February 26, 2021, 07:34:58 PM
The 1150 is way more responsive than the Moses but, the 1060 will carve better with the down turned tips. if you were picking just one wing then I would say go 1010 but  to add to your 910 then you can't go wrong with 1060 or 1150.
Interesting, I rode the 1060's lil brother (970), and didn't think it carved as well as the 1150's and 1010's lil brother (910)...having not ridden the any of those bigger bros. :D

Now granted, I'm talking surf foiling them, and winging might be a completely different kind "carving", but while they call them "PNG" wings, the baby of the family turns super well at speed (with the 460 tail), and not that far off the 900's surf carving, but as the name says, it pumps much better than the 900....IMHO naturally.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on February 27, 2021, 12:37:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TKyvwfV5o&t=140s
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on February 28, 2021, 12:08:41 AM
Interesting, I rode the 1060's lil brother (970), and didn't think it carved as well as the 1150's and 1010's lil brother (910)...having not ridden the any of those bigger bros. :D
Now granted, I'm talking surf foiling them, and winging might be a completely different kind "carving", but while they call them "PNG" wings, the baby of the family turns super well at speed (with the 460 tail), and not that far off the 900's surf carving, but as the name says, it pumps much better than the 900....IMHO naturally.
I am still looking for the right wing for  downwind winging in strong wind 25= knots
I have the 860, doesn't pump good enough , not enough glide
I have the 1010 , out of control in stroger wind when the waves get steeper.
And I have the 900 , nice to carve and pumps quite good.

But if the 910 carves as good as the 900 and has more pump and glide, would this be the wing to get? How easy is it to control when it really speeds up?

Or should I get one of the new HPS foils? I tried the V1 980 And didn't like it , but perhaps the 930 would be perfect? But will the 930 not be to difficult to get up and flying when the wind drops below 20 knots? And how good does it pump with the wing flagging?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on February 28, 2021, 12:46:30 AM
Interesting, I rode the 1060's lil brother (970), and didn't think it carved as well as the 1150's and 1010's lil brother (910)...having not ridden the any of those bigger bros. :D
Now granted, I'm talking surf foiling them, and winging might be a completely different kind "carving", but while they call them "PNG" wings, the baby of the family turns super well at speed (with the 460 tail), and not that far off the 900's surf carving, but as the name says, it pumps much better than the 900....IMHO naturally.
I am still looking for the right wing for  downwind winging in strong wind 25= knots
I have the 860, doesn't pump good enough , not enough glide
I have the 1010 , out of control in stroger wind when the waves get steeper.
And I have the 900 , nice to carve and pumps quite good.

But if the 910 carves as good as the 900 and has more pump and glide, would this be the wing to get? How easy is it to control when it really speeds up?

Or should I get one of the new HPS foils? I tried the V1 980 And didn't like it , but perhaps the 930 would be perfect? But will the 930 not be to difficult to get up and flying when the wind drops below 20 knots? And how good does it pump with the wing flagging?
Unfortunately, as I made sure to post previously...I'm not a winger, so have no conception of "winging in strong wind 25=knots", and all I can share is how they all act in the surf...with less than 8kt wind, much over that and I'm sitting on the beach. :D

But in the surf, I find that all of the higher aspect wings seem to be easier to control the more you push them. In fact, that was probably the hardest thing for me to get past in the beginning when transitioning over, was that I was trying to turn them like LA wings, and slowed them down too much before and when turning...instead of accelerating them, and pushing them through the turn.

New riders trying them for the first time, I equate it to riding and turning a bike. That like a bike too slow in a turn, and you'll wobble, bobble, and tip the bike over, but the faster you turn it, the better it'll track through the turn...up to the point that you're going just too fast and the tires slide out from under you. HA wings are very similar in feel.

The 910 when going fast enough, will let a wing tip come out of the water, and track right through it. Whereas because of the anhedral tips on the 900, if you do turn it hard enough to get a tip out, the water will spill out of it, and it'll slide out from under you...just like the bike going too fast.

As far as the HPS wings, I'm really liking both the 1050 and 980 (haven't ridden the 930), but then again, that's under a sup foil, and I can use the paddle to assist me in the wave, that you're not able to take advantage of with the wing, so it could be that as more of the difference in preference than that of the wings.

But from the sounds of it, I'd see if you can try a 910 from someone, since you already seem to like the 1010, and it's better/easier than the 900 to control at higher speeds, not only because of the flatter/wider tips, but it's just a slower wing than the 900 all-around.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on February 28, 2021, 02:08:29 AM
Unfortunately, as I made sure to post previously...I'm not a winger, so have no conception of "winging in strong wind 25=knots", and all I can share is how they all act in the surf...with less than 8kt wind, much over that and I'm sitting on the beach. :D

But in the surf, I find that all of the higher aspect wings seem to be easier to control the more you push them. In fact, that was probably the hardest thing for me to get past in the beginning when transitioning over, was that I was trying to turn them like LA wings, and slowed them down too much before and when turning...instead of accelerating them, and pushing them through the turn.

New riders trying them for the first time, I equate it to riding and turning a bike. That like a bike too slow in a turn, and you'll wobble, bobble, and tip the bike over, but the faster you turn it, the better it'll track through the turn...up to the point that you're going just too fast and the tires slide out from under you. HA wings are very similar in feel.

The 910 when going fast enough, will let a wing tip come out of the water, and track right through it. Whereas because of the anhedral tips on the 900, if you do turn it hard enough to get a tip out, the water will spill out of it, and it'll slide out from under you...just like the bike going too fast.

As far as the HPS wings, I'm really liking both the 1050 and 980 (haven't ridden the 930), but then again, that's under a sup foil, and I can use the paddle to assist me in the wave, that you're not able to take advantage of with the wing, so it could be that as more of the difference in preference than that of the wings.

But from the sounds of it, I'd see if you can try a 910 from someone, since you already seem to like the 1010, and it's better/easier than the 900 to control at higher speeds, not only because of the flatter/wider tips, but it's just a slower wing than the 900 all-around.
I also supfoil and downwinding with a wing is quite similar: trying to make long rides flagging the wing.
I have the 1010 and I use it when the waves are small and slow for supfoil and when the wind is less than 15 knots for wingfoil, but I do not really like way it turns, also when winging going pretty fast. It has a mind of its own,the 900 and 86 are much more under control when carving....
That is why I hesitate ordering a 910 , unfortunately I can't borrow one to try.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on February 28, 2021, 04:11:20 AM
Interesting, I rode the 1060's lil brother (970), and didn't think it carved as well as the 1150's and 1010's lil brother (910)...having not ridden the any of those bigger bros. :D
Now granted, I'm talking surf foiling them, and winging might be a completely different kind "carving", but while they call them "PNG" wings, the baby of the family turns super well at speed (with the 460 tail), and not that far off the 900's surf carving, but as the name says, it pumps much better than the 900....IMHO naturally.
I am still looking for the right wing for  downwind winging in strong wind 25= knots
I have the 860, doesn't pump good enough , not enough glide
I have the 1010 , out of control in stroger wind when the waves get steeper.
And I have the 900 , nice to carve and pumps quite good.

But if the 910 carves as good as the 900 and has more pump and glide, would this be the wing to get? How easy is it to control when it really speeds up?

Or should I get one of the new HPS foils? I tried the V1 980 And didn't like it , but perhaps the 930 would be perfect? But will the 930 not be to difficult to get up and flying when the wind drops below 20 knots? And how good does it pump with the wing flagging?
Forget the 910. Downwind you need speed and glide.

Go the HPS880, it is an insane wing.... Glides so much (not as long as the 980) and is fast. Turns pretty well too. Make sure you couple it with either the 420 (speed and pump) or 390 (carves better) .
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on February 28, 2021, 04:45:44 AM

I have the 1010 and I use it when the waves are small and slow for supfoil and when the wind is less than 15 knots for wingfoil, but I do not really like way it turns, also when winging going pretty fast. It has a mind of its own,the 900 and 86 are much more under control when carving....
That is why I hesitate ordering a 910 , unfortunately I can't borrow one to try.

Nailed it. Thatís why I sold my 1010 after one month. The PNGs are not for me. I want a foil that is an extension of me.

The HPS foils will be what you love. Now you just need to pick the size. When building a quiver of HPS foils you want to skip a size. So 1050-930, or 980-880 are good combos.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on February 28, 2021, 07:03:52 AM
+1 on the 1010. I don't understand why the 1150 turns so much better. I have to pivot the 1010, I can bank the 1150.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on February 28, 2021, 03:35:10 PM
The HPS foils will be what you love. Now you just need to pick the size. When building a quiver of HPS foils you want to skip a size. So 1050-930, or 980-880 are good combos.
I agree with this, and why I said...

As far as the HPS wings, I'm really liking both the 1050 and 980 (haven't ridden the 930), but then again, that's under a sup foil, and I can use the paddle to assist me in the wave, that you're not able to take advantage of with the wing, so it could be that as more of the difference in preference than that of the wings.
...but he had said he didn't like the 980 for whatever reason(s), so I went the other way with the other series, and the 910 that I know a lot of guys are liking with their wings (2nd best selling wing in the Axis lineup after the 1150).

We don't have an 880 here in SoCal yet, but hoping that changes in the not too distance future. After riding the other two and loving them, I think an even smaller, more nimble wing from that series would be even better and more fun in the surf.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on February 28, 2021, 11:21:35 PM
The HPS foils will be what you love. Now you just need to pick the size. When building a quiver of HPS foils you want to skip a size. So 1050-930, or 980-880 are good combos.
I agree with this, and why I said...

As far as the HPS wings, I'm really liking both the 1050 and 980 (haven't ridden the 930), but then again, that's under a sup foil, and I can use the paddle to assist me in the wave, that you're not able to take advantage of with the wing, so it could be that as more of the difference in preference than that of the wings.
...but he had said he didn't like the 980 for whatever reason(s), so I went the other way with the other series, and the 910 that I know a lot of guys are liking with their wings (2nd best selling wing in the Axis lineup after the 1150).

We don't have an 880 here in SoCal yet, but hoping that changes in the not too distance future. After riding the other two and loving them, I think an even smaller, more nimble wing from that series would be even better and more fun in the surf.

I only tried the 980 but it was a V1, the V2 is supposed to be a better foil...
But I don't have the opportunity to test the final version...

But I only read good thigs about the HPS wings so perhaps I just have to take a chance and order two or three of them.
What do think Cali should I forget about the 910 for now if I do that?

And what would be best quiver of HPS wings for a couple
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 01, 2021, 02:23:29 AM
What didnít you like about the v1

Then I can tell you if youíll like the v2.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 01, 2021, 05:17:50 AM
What didnít you like about the v1
Then I can tell you if youíll like the v2.
I only tried it twice with a wing.
It was nervous when going fast, and it was not much faster than my 860...
And it had a mind of its own when carving a jibe , a bit like the 1010 but worse.
And I have used the 1020,920,1000 and 900 for winging and these all carve nice and smooth.

And I don't  like winging with the 1150 at all , it is fine for the sup for mini waves.
Still looking for a nicer lightwind winging foil, perhaps the HPS 1050 or the BSC 970?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on March 01, 2021, 08:15:25 AM
And I don't  like winging with the 1150 at all , it is fine for the sup for mini waves.
Still looking for a nicer lightwind winging foil, perhaps the HPS 1050 or the BSC 970?
OK, since the bottom line you looking for is "light wind", then yes, forget about the 910 (and 980 or 970), and just get the 1050...that wing is super fun in the small surf (equating that to "light wind"), and does almost everything really well.

Other than me hitting my paddle on it a couple of times because it's so long (the wing, not my paddle), which is an instantaneous "stick in the spokes" kind of thing, I can't think of a single thing I don't like about that wing...turns, glides, pumps incredibly, and lifts off the water on takeoff super easy. Kinda like I wrote about here last week.... (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37041.0.html)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 01, 2021, 09:32:24 AM
OK got it. The v1 is more nervous than the v2. I love the v1 because it is adrenaline pumping performance. Jacky immediately liked the v2 more, because it was easy. The v2 is toned down a lot. More accessible performance all around.

But, Iím not going to say youíll like the v2, if you disliked the v1 that much. I think the v1 crushes every wing on the planet. So we like different feels.

The BCS is super easy fun.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on March 01, 2021, 09:44:04 AM
I've ridden v1 and v2 of the 980, and the 810. For riding waves the v2 is better than v1. Turns well and doesn't want to drop if you get going too slow like the v1 does. That being said I think you should look into the BSC wings based on what you're written. I found the 810 to be like the 900 but turns way better/tighter. So maybe one of the bigger sizes of the BSC line depending on your weight.

That being said I winged Kahana last night with the v2 980, and felt like a carving machine in the waist high waves. I really like both the 980 and 810.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 01, 2021, 10:16:48 PM
And I don't  like winging with the 1150 at all , it is fine for the sup for mini waves.
Still looking for a nicer lightwind winging foil, perhaps the HPS 1050 or the BSC 970?
OK, since the bottom line you looking for is "light wind", then yes, forget about the 910 (and 980 or 970), and just get the 1050...that wing is super fun in the small surf (equating that to "light wind"), and does almost everything really well.

Other than me hitting my paddle on it a couple of times because it's so long (the wing, not my paddle), which is an instantaneous "stick in the spokes" kind of thing, I can't think of a single thing I don't like about that wing...turns, glides, pumps incredibly, and lifts off the water on takeoff super easy. Kinda like I wrote about here last week.... (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37041.0.html)
Yes one of the things I am looking for is a foil for light wind winging and after reading your post about the 1050 I just have to get it , it will be a great supping foil as well....

I never hit my foil with my paddle, I have a nose high paddle that I don't use once I am up on the foil.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 02, 2021, 11:57:12 AM
Interesting reading the comments on the 980 v1 vs v2.
When I used the v1 a couple of times it was a wild machine!

Now my 880 and 1050 are super smooth and toned down mostly because I am on short fuselage and coupled with the 420 I feel zero twitchyness.


I have to say that the 1050 is still tricky to get up in light winds.... It really needs wing power and good technique. It stalls quickly if you don't pump the board quickly once it lifts off in marginal conditions. Once up it races up to 13knots like a drag car. Crazy stuff in only 12/13knots wind with a 6m.

I only discovered yesterday when browsing the axis website that the BSC wings in smaller sizes fit on the black fuse and on bigger sizes on the red fuse. And that is going to cause a lot of confusion with people buying the wrong combo....  :-\

I am curious to know whether the big BSC 1060 and 1160 will be quicker than the slow 1020. Hope so!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 02, 2021, 02:09:45 PM
The BSC are both faster than the 1020. Same great low end stall for pumping but better speed for surf and winging
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 03, 2021, 01:13:42 PM
Today

https://youtu.be/wl03WXC_fT0
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on March 03, 2021, 02:39:03 PM
Nice video DW.  I can see why you like the Ensis wing so much -- looks stable and good upwind.  What was the wind strength?  To me it looked like 10 to 15 knots (in the gusts).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 03, 2021, 03:27:35 PM
wind speed during the video

GoPro illusion

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51000699173_ddf71cca1b.jpg)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on March 03, 2021, 08:49:06 PM
What size surf you figure a 1010 can handle? It's great f winging but I'm getting blasted out of the water in the surf in it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on March 03, 2021, 11:10:17 PM
For me. the big trick for using the 1010 and 1150 in the surf is shimming--I get the incidence angle under 2 degrees. I haven't done much with the 1010 lately, but the 1150 comes up like butter at 1.5 degrees, goes like a banshee, and glides forever.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 04, 2021, 04:36:37 AM
Today
Interesting board you have..
Good for the HPS foils that need some more board speed to get them flying?

What are the specs of that board and how much do you weigh?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on March 04, 2021, 09:06:17 AM
I'm always amazed at how calm the water is in so many of those winging spots when the winds blowing twice as hard+ than we get when the surface is a mixed up mess, white capping, and what looks like storm surging whitewater anywhere you'd be able to head out in.

Now I get why folks could get into it, and find it so fun. Because that looks like a whole lotta fun when you're not having to battling numerous set of 3' whitewater trying to drag a board, foil, and wingding 100+ yards out to get to a point to then try to standup to learn in.

Nice vid DW.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 04, 2021, 09:18:07 AM
In person, itís whitecapping hard. The GoPro makes it look like no wind.

The board is 4í11 x 26.5 x 95 liters with a straight tail. No bevel. This improves the low end of a foil like the HPS series. Any board works, this board just increases the working range.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on March 04, 2021, 11:18:35 AM
DW -- I think you were on the Ensis 5.2 wing in your video?  If so, it must have a pretty big wind range.  The handles look like the best non-boom type that I've seen.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 04, 2021, 12:28:13 PM
DW -- I think you were on the Ensis 5.2 wing in your video?  If so, it must have a pretty big wind range.  The handles look like the best non-boom type that I've seen.

It does have a big wind range. But look at how gusty the wind is in that chart. That plays a factor. Rocket upwind in lower wind, then when it nukes, surf down wind. Playing the wind to my advantage. The handles are really good. Yes, itís a 5.2m.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on March 07, 2021, 10:54:09 PM
The board is 4í11 x 26.5 x 95 liters with a straight tail. No bevel. This improves the low end of a foil like the HPS series. Any board works, this board just increases the working range.
Have you also tried BSC wings?
I suppose it would also improve the low end of the BSC series?
So that you can get up with a smaller foil and or a smaller wing.


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 08, 2021, 03:38:44 AM

Have you also tried BSC wings?
I suppose it would also improve the low end of the BSC series?
So that you can get up with a smaller foil and or a smaller wing.

iíve ridden the BCS-1060

The BCS is super easy to ride. Any board works well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 09, 2021, 04:39:11 AM
How many of you besides Dwight are riding the carbon mast?

I'm still on the fence as to whether it's a worthy upgrade for minor weight savings and a nicer feel of the carbon foil.
Apparently it's not recommended for wings wider than 1050 span
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on March 09, 2021, 05:44:56 AM
I'm using Carbon--the 76 and 96. I like the feel, and I use them with the 1150. I'd consider myself in the upper band for weight (215) and no problems or indications of issues.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on March 09, 2021, 09:59:42 AM
regarding carbon or aluminum, for me it depends on if I am winging or surfing.  The wingding ads so much stability that any mast flex is less noticeable, while surfing I find mast flex very very very noticeable/bad.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 09, 2021, 01:00:38 PM
So the question is whether mast flex is good or bad on the wing!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on March 09, 2021, 04:29:34 PM
With a carbon mast, tight spring is ok in the surf.  however too much, and most do too much IMHO, and it makes larger wings unuseable in the surf. Wingding not so bad.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dontsink on March 09, 2021, 11:17:46 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/CMObXZIDPCB/?igshid=1pdecdb8vf4e5 (https://www.instagram.com/p/CMObXZIDPCB/?igshid=1pdecdb8vf4e5)

This guy is pure gold :)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 10, 2021, 04:40:48 AM
The HPS1050 is allowing me to achieve things I've not been able to do before in light winds on the winding.

Last week I managed a 1h2 session without falling into the water and today I bettered it with a 1h23 session... I'm honestly not when even trying. I carve, gybe, tack etc.... Even had the 6m wing wing tip catch water and it swung around with my harness hooked in, no worries I had plenty of time to sort it out without crashing.

This is all possible thanks to the insane GLIDE  8)

I do however miss the speed of the smaller HPS wings, still very good.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on March 18, 2021, 07:02:55 PM
Hey Dwight. Latest Iíve heard is the black series works better when you shim the rear of the front wing. Have you tried this yet?

Does this lower the difference between the front wing angle and tail wing angle then? Itís flattening the front wing right?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on March 18, 2021, 07:08:03 PM
Hey Dwight. Latest Iíve heard is the black series works better when you shim the rear of the front wing. Have you tried this yet?

Does this lower the difference between the front wing angle and tail wing angle then? Itís flattening the front wing right?
Not all of the black series...the 890 and possibly the 810
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on March 18, 2021, 09:57:36 PM
Oh. I was thinking they were changing the fuse. Youíre saying theyíre changing just the specific wings.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 19, 2021, 04:41:55 AM
Yesterday. Iím still struggling to follow people at a steady distance. That little mini 2 in strong wind moves like a snail against the wind, then zooms with the wind. Makes tracking tough. Not brave enough to try sport mode yet. Mark is probably 160 lbs on the HPS-980  Jacky 116 on the HPS 880, both on 3.5s. Disney cruise ship in the background. Jacky was experimenting with new shoes. She is trying to find a shoe that is less grippy. Bare foot would be best, but sting rays and cuts suck. If anyone knows of a slippery shoe, let me know.

https://youtu.be/HSeWdWQJl6g
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on March 19, 2021, 10:04:01 AM
Oh. I was thinking they were changing the fuse. Youíre saying theyíre changing just the specific wings.
Yes, the shim under the rear bolt changes the angle of how the wing sits on the fuse, and it's just one (maybe two) of the new wings that might need it depending on rider preference. Just like many of the brands suggest and offer shims for the rear wing to get a different ride or feel from it. This is just doing something a little different with a front wing or two to change how it flies and rides.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 19, 2021, 04:11:25 PM
Anyone else using the HPS700 here ? I use mine for kite foiling mostly and managed one short wing session with it. Even though it's more of a mid-aspect wing, it's an absolute JOY for both disciplines. It's so efficient, fast and loose. Does not glide anything like 880/980/1050 which is expected. Looking forward to my next high wind wing sessions with it  8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on March 19, 2021, 05:11:16 PM
Anyone else using the HPS700 here ? I use mine for kite foiling mostly and managed one short wing session with it. Even though it's more of a mid-aspect wing, it's an absolute JOY for both disciplines. It's so efficient, fast and loose. Does not glide anything like 880/980/1050 which is expected. Looking forward to my next high wind wing sessions with it  8)

yup, have had 2 sessions on the wing with it.  Super fun! I've been meaning to try it prone, but have been lazy.  what stab are you using with it?  I've been using the 340 with the front shim, but just got a kdmaui tail, so will be trying that combo next.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 19, 2021, 05:13:02 PM
yup, have had 2 sessions on the wing with it.  Super fun! I've been meaning to try it prone, but have been lazy.  what stab are you using with it?  I've been using the 340 with the front shim, but just got a kdmaui tail, so will be trying that combo next.
420 all the way ! It's much thinner than the 340 and the upturned tips eliminates any skidding. I reckon the future smaller version 380 will be even better and no need to bother with kd tails.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 19, 2021, 05:14:46 PM
Anyone else using the HPS700 here ? I use mine for kite foiling mostly and managed one short wing session with it. Even though it's more of a mid-aspect wing, it's an absolute JOY for both disciplines. It's so efficient, fast and loose. Does not glide anything like 880/980/1050 which is expected. Looking forward to my next high wind wing sessions with it  8)

700 is one of my favorites to use. Just not always fast enough swell for it for me. Really good low end on it and stability is so smooth and high speeds. I ride it ultra short fuselage with 370 rear shimmed.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 19, 2021, 05:48:03 PM
Does anyone ride the 700 with the ultrashort ? I wonder whether it would be less twitchy than the bigger HPS wings, which is the reason why I went with the short fuse.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on March 19, 2021, 06:42:55 PM
If you're going to wing it, ultra short is great but if you're going to kite it then I'd recommend the short fuselage.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on March 19, 2021, 06:45:35 PM
If you're going to wing it, ultra short is great but if you're going to kite it then I'd recommend the short fuselage.

Funny you say that as generally it's the other way round ? With Kite we use smaller front wings generally hence I was wondering about the ultrashort for kite only.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on March 20, 2021, 11:47:00 AM
I'm using ultrashort with 700, 810, and 980.  Prone and winging.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on March 26, 2021, 11:02:42 PM
Anyone been on the 880 yet?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 27, 2021, 02:56:22 AM
Anyone been on the 880 yet?

Yes, itís a superstar in the HPS range. Pumps great, speed, lose, easy to ride well.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on March 27, 2021, 02:12:08 PM
Anyone been on the 880 yet?
Yes, itís a superstar in the HPS range. Pumps great, speed, lose, easy to ride well.
Agreed...super fun wing. Have a bunch of "favorites", and this one is right at the top.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dontsink on March 27, 2021, 11:26:56 PM
Oh. I was thinking they were changing the fuse. Youíre saying theyíre changing just the specific wings.
Yes, the shim under the rear bolt changes the angle of how the wing sits on the fuse, and it's just one (maybe two) of the new wings that might need it depending on rider preference. Just like many of the brands suggest and offer shims for the rear wing to get a different ride or feel from it. This is just doing something a little different with a front wing or two to change how it flies and rides.

This option of shimming the front wing is great.
But manufacturers should start providing some guidelines explaining what shims do at stab,mast baseplate and fuse to front wing connection.
With sample setups for different  riding conditions and preferences.
Average rider is going to go nuts otherwise.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mario_Wings on March 28, 2021, 04:24:30 AM
I have been looking at the new HS wings and wondering if anyone uses the 960cm carbon mast for winging? Or is the 860 or 760 preferred?


Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on March 28, 2021, 05:50:26 AM
I use the 96 carbon a lot, mostly with the 860 if there is enough wind and the 1150 if there isn't. I haven't tried any of the black fuse wings yet.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on March 28, 2021, 07:05:45 AM
I have been looking at the new HS wings and wondering if anyone uses the 960cm carbon mast for winging? Or is the 860 or 760 preferred?

I use 86 the most. I switch to 96 when there are ďwavesĒ in the ocean. Less crashing.

86 is quicker maneuvering than the 96.

76 cm is only for SUP in my quiver.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mario_Wings on March 28, 2021, 01:25:50 PM
Thank for the mast size advice.

Now I wonder which black series front wing I should get being around 86/87kg (190lb) if I wanted to try the HS series . . . would the 980 work in less than 15 knots of wind?

I know Axis also has the BSC wings but I do not think I have seen much written about them. I mostly ride in ocean chop though we do get good wind driven swell on the right tides and when it has been quite windy.

I have only ridden the Moses 1100 (2100cm2) at this stage. I can gybe and tack now and although I think it has made my learning easy, I am looking for what to go to next.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 01, 2021, 10:38:05 PM
Thank for the mast size advice.

Now I wonder which black series front wing I should get being around 86/87kg (190lb) if I wanted to try the HS series . . . would the 980 work in less than 15 knots of wind?

I know Axis also has the BSC wings but I do not think I have seen much written about them. I mostly ride in ocean chop though we do get good wind driven swell on the right tides and when it has been quite windy.

I have only ridden the Moses 1100 (2100cm2) at this stage. I can gybe and tack now and although I think it has made my learning easy, I am looking for what to go to next.

Under 15kn go for HPS1050 it's an insane gliding machine. I rarely fall off on that foil in light winds.  8)

980 is great once over 15kn but I use the 880 as my main wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 01, 2021, 10:39:55 PM
I have been looking at the new HS wings and wondering if anyone uses the 960cm carbon mast for winging? Or is the 860 or 760 preferred?

I use 86 the most. I switch to 96 when there are ďwavesĒ in the ocean. Less crashing.

86 is quicker maneuvering than the 96.

76 cm is only for SUP in my quiver.

I'm really hesitating between 86 and 96 myself.

Currently using 90cm ali mast for wing and kite. Because of kite and swell I'm leaning towards 96.

Interesting your note about 86 being more responsive....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on April 02, 2021, 07:04:46 AM
I have only ridden the Moses 1100 (2100cm2) at this stage. I can gybe and tack now and although I think it has made my learning easy, I am looking for what to go to next.

If you already have the Moses foil why not try the new Moses 950 (little brother to the 1100) and higher aspect?  Would be less expensive.
Title: Re: Initial purchase of Axis Foils
Post by: rfhestdalen on April 05, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
After reading all 62 pages of this forum, I am very appreciative to all the contributors as I have gained a great amount of knowledge about the Axis system and foiling in general. I would like some advice, given my situation purchasing the right foil gear.
I have kitesurfing and SUP experience in the past as well as I have wake foiled on Slingshot gear behind my boat last year. Iím fairly comfortable behind the 2nd wake on a 84Ē SS and did make a wake transfer by the end of the summer.

Iím looking to start Wingfoiling and Kitefoiling with the Axis System. Iím 6í6Ē, 210-215 pounds. Would be playing primarily on a lake in northern ID and a few days of the year in the Gorge and Maui. Wind conditions on the lake is mainly a SW wind 7-12mi/hr. Occasionally, we can get a NE at 18-30. I have purchased a 6.4 Slingwing V2, Gin Spirit 15m kitefoil, and a 6í2 142L Blue Planet Carver Foil Sup thus far.

So what to buy initially (and I realize people seem to progress through their early equipment as their skill level improves). I would like to get 1 foil for light-wind WF and a second foil for high-wind WF and light-wind kitefoiling (i donít see myself kitefoiling when itís cranking). To me, it seems rather obvious to start WF with the new 1120 BSC, 75Ē Al mast, short fuse with a 440 vs 430 stab. Thoughts? Would it be just as easy to start out it light conditions with the 1060 given my weight and lake conditions and perhaps use the foil longer?

I would like to use a 2nd foil primarily for high-wind Wingfoil and light-wind kitefoil. Is that reasonable? I was thinking maybe a 970 BSC vs 1050 HPS vs 980 HPS etc with the 390 rear foil. Any thoughts?

What would be your 2 foil recommendations for me? Or do I need a 3rd to kitefoil?

Given my age of 52 and my weight, etc, i donít have any delusions of having to get a 1150mm to pump around the lake like Mr Wakethief.  But PB real likes his 1150, so maybe that foil is in the mix as well.

Interested in your advice, thanks!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on April 05, 2021, 06:28:35 PM
At your weight agree with you the 1060 is a good choice,my fav wing at 225lb.I have my eye on the 1120 for light days but itís not out yet,but I will definitely be getting it when available.I had the 1150 and sold it,was good for flat water spots or small swells ocean days,but for decent ocean swell winging was not biggest fan of the 1150 much prefer the 1060 from 6m wind to 3.5m blasts
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 07, 2021, 06:08:09 AM
So today I discovered than my 90cm mast is in fact 92cm when you measure from the top plate to the fuselage.  ???

Could someone measure the carbon mast with fuselage, do we need to add 2 cm as well?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on April 07, 2021, 07:54:38 AM
I put the AXIS 75cm aluminum mast with doodad and plate mount, next to the AXIS 76cm carbon mast. The carbon mast was ever so slightly shorter. I was confused.

A 75cm carbon unifoil mast was ever so slightly taller than both AXIS masts. My 75cm project cedrus mast with plate mount and a lift adapter is taller yet. That one measures 80.5cm by my tape measure.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 07, 2021, 08:45:18 AM
Masts are all measured different and so are fuselages. No industry standard for anything.

Just accept it and move on  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 07, 2021, 02:16:07 PM
Masts are all measured different and so are fuselages. No industry standard for anything.

Just accept it and move on  ;D ;D
you have the carbon 96 mast could you measure with the black fuse.

Considering how expensive the carbon mast are it's important to get the right size.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on April 11, 2021, 07:15:43 AM
Just had first go on the 380 stab with my 980 v1. Holy Chit! Skatepark handling with unlimited speed on tap. First thing I did was file down the scary ass knives. As far as I can see the 380 is the exact same stab as the 460 just chopped and wing tipped. I ordered a new Ride Engine Defender HF vest to pair with it. Coming back to earth from jumps, the smaller stab re-enters the water and resumes foiling easier than larger stabs. Send it!!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on April 12, 2021, 07:10:33 AM
Adding on to Paddlurís discussion of the BSC 1060 earlier in this thread, hereís my experience using the 1060 after many winging sessions on the 1150    [175 lbs., competent but low-talent foiler, many years experience windsurfing/kiting/kitefoiling, 420 rear, using a 90 liter SUP Surf Machines board and Boardriding Maui W1 wings].  Iíve used the 1060 in light but foilable 5 meter conditions, solid 4 meter(~22 mph), and pretty solid 3 meter (averaging mid-high 20 mph  with gusts to low 30s)  all in sounds and not breaking waves.

Ease of getting on foil Ė about even Ė 1150 maybe has slightly more lift, but the 1060 develops a bit more forward speed on the water.  Both get up really easily.

Smoothness/control in powered conditions and windswell -  1060 by a lot.  It is less prone to sudden changes in foil angle in response to gusts and water turbulence, and feels great on all points of sail.

Turning/jibing Ė 1060 is (for me) so much better than the 1150 that I put the 1150 up for sale after one session.  The 1060 turns so much more quickly, smoothly, and controllably for me than the 1150 Ė itís not even close. Seems more stable switching feet.  My jibe completion rate has jumped significantly.

Pumping Ė the 1150 does pump through lulls better Ė I could definitely stay on foil longer through lulls and wind holes than with the 1060.  1060 is still pretty good, but the 1150 was really awesome at this.

Overall Ė I totally love this wing. It makes everything easier and more fun. I will probably sell my smaller Cloud 9 foils and get a BSC 890. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: cnski on April 12, 2021, 07:53:47 AM
AGK- What about straight line speed of the 1060 vs 1150? Thx
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: AGK on April 12, 2021, 08:11:37 AM
AGK- What about straight line speed of the 1060 vs 1150? Thx

I think for me the 1060 is faster because I can push it harder and stay in control, especially off the wind  -- but compared with most foilers I am pretty slow all the time, so I would not put a lot of confidence in my assessment.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 13, 2021, 01:51:35 AM
Question for those that like to go fast on the HA wings...

Have you ever experienced an issue where the foil suddenly gets a mind of it's own and goes sideways when you're going fast on a beam reach ?

It happened to me on Sunday and since raising the issue I've had other people reporting the same issue. It's caused by ventilation, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIQlDJ-XPY  (Hadou is a well known bloger on all things wing/axis).

It seems to happen less with the thinner carbon mast, but people haven't experienced this issue with other brands of foils  :-\
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 13, 2021, 02:29:44 AM
Never happened to me or Jacky. We have carbon masts.

Did I hear noise coming from his foil? Ours are silent.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 13, 2021, 09:55:08 AM
Yup. I experienced it several times last summer in Hood River. Typically on my 860 but also on the 1010. I use both carbon and aluminum masts and I don't remember which I was using. Definitely a high wind, hauling ass thing. I like to swerve around a lot on the 860, it feels so loose, especially with the 340 tail, but the stutter is not just from swerving and dancing around. It's happened several times when I'm just planted, going straight. Oddly, it doesn't make me fall, or at least I don't think it does. It's just a sudden, sideways slip and drop of a few inches. One of those feelings that pops your eyes wide. Like "what the fuck was that!"

I've stopped several times and flipped my board over to see if there was something wrong. Nope.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: clay on April 13, 2021, 10:21:42 AM
This video shows the difference between wing tip breach, and mast ventilation - can see the air travel down the mast to the tail (around 4 minute):

https://youtu.be/xarbCj87N6U
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 13, 2021, 10:51:28 AM
That's pretty much what I thought it was. The phenomenon people mistakenly call cavitation. Cavitation is actually boiling and requires a lot more energy than a human can generate. Throttle down the suction of a multi-horsepower centrifugal pump just a bit too much and you'll hear a rattle--the sound of a low enough pressure being generated on the back side of the pump impeller to allow the water to boil at low temperature.

Ventilation is just air being drawn down from the surface by a much lower pressure differential than would be required for cavitation. It's why paddles slip and windsurf fins sideslip after a jump or when they're pressed hard. It's no surprise that a foil can do that. It's a little odd that the tapered carbon mast might exacerbate the issue--I'd expect the taper to detach the bubble and lessen the problem, but reality often has little to do with what I'd expect.

It's rare enough to generally not be an issue, but if it became more common with specific wing designs then the usual fence solutions would probably fix it. I'd expect HA wings would be a lot more susceptible to wing tip ventilation than mast ventilation--the low pressure area of a wing is proportional to lift and is distributed along the length of the wing. For the same amount of lift (enough to get you up in the air) a HA wing would have smaller differential pressure per unit of length. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: supunk on April 13, 2021, 02:36:38 PM
Interesting to hear about this. Have had this happen a fair few times when pushing hard upwind. Sometimes it is possible to de power quickly and stay on foil but if you donít react quick itís usually game over. Always wondered what was going on as there was no wing tip breach. Thought I must be breaching the stab but this makes more sense. Really helpful to know. Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on April 13, 2021, 08:49:56 PM
Question for those that like to go fast on the HA wings...

Have you ever experienced an issue where the foil suddenly gets a mind of it's own and goes sideways when you're going fast on a beam reach ?

It happened to me on Sunday and since raising the issue I've had other people reporting the same issue. It's caused by ventilation, see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tIQlDJ-XPY  (Hadou is a well known bloger on all things wing/axis).

It seems to happen less with the thinner carbon mast, but people haven't experienced this issue with other brands of foils  :-\
Let me preface by saying too each there own no doubt,but this has been my personal dislike of HA wings unlike you on a reach,HA wings in the surf for me there tendency to get a mind of there own at some moments which have led me to really favor the tad lower aspect wings like the 1060 they just handle more reliably in the waves for me less surprises.Now granted have not tried the black fuse series yet or any other hi aspect wings beside The GF GL series which was not a fav of mind either.Will say for me not a big fan of the HA wings supfoiling either for that matter.Now if your on flatter water and want to go fast the HA wings are fun for me I liked the 1150 for that but once it got in the waves is where we parted ways much prefer the 1060 by a long shot not into setting any speed records especially wave riding,so for me the 1060 goes plenty fast for me in waves and my confidence level is high no surprises unless good ole pilot error
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 19, 2021, 04:34:46 PM
If anyone's seen KD Wilde's interview on the blue planet show (which I highly recommend). He shows a custom g10 material made surf wing on the Axis K fuselage  ;D ;D He claims that the black fuse head is too thick  :o

https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/products/800surf-for-axis-foils

Obviously it would only work for lightweight riders.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on April 19, 2021, 04:39:15 PM
Why obviously? KDMaui is 195 pounds I think.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 19, 2021, 04:41:25 PM
Why obviously? KDMaui is 195 pounds I think.

Have you seen the K series mount ? It's quite small.
He looks a lot lighter than 195Lbs  :D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on April 19, 2021, 06:46:51 PM
Ah that makes sense.

2 minute 50 second mark in the blue planet podcast he says heís 6í0Ē 195#.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on April 20, 2021, 10:10:11 PM
Goodness gracious the 980 is an amazing winging foil. is there even a top end on it? Ran it back to back againt the kiruji 1210 today-more to follow.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: StephenZ on April 21, 2021, 05:40:29 AM
The mast ventilation issue reported here has nothing to do with the wing - and it's not an axis only thing, except indirectly with the HA foils by being faster and more efficient.

It's a result of 3 factors, the upward angle, the speed, and the mast section, and in particular the thickness of the mast relative to its chord.

It is caused by the water flow around the mast switching from laminar to turbulent flow. I'd imagine this creates an area of lower pressure around the mast, sucking in air, causing it to ventilate.

I'd imagine a longer mast gives more time to react before the air makes it down to the wing, which I think is the point when it it becomes unrecoverable.

I've never heard of it for masts with a thickness of less than 14mm, and I'd be very surprised to hear any reports of it for the axis carbon mast in any situation. However for the 19mm axis aluminium mast this effect is likely to come into play.

In the case of the HA axis wings such as the 980, you are able to go faster and at a great angle upwind than on other surf foils. Probably why nobody has reported it on any of the slower wings.

It was an often reported problem with the original liquid force kitefoil mast that had quite a narrow chord, but was quite wide at 20mm. I experienced it using the project cedrus mast (also 20mm thick) with various kitefoils when I cranked it hard upwind, more so with faster foils. I've never experienced it with the cedrus mast with any surf or wing foil, including the axis 980 v1, which is what I'm currently riding. I generally don't ride highly powered though, not by choice at least.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 22, 2021, 10:40:52 AM
https://youtu.be/P5Tk-2IM3Ac
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on April 22, 2021, 12:00:17 PM
The mast ventilation issue

I watched the Spanish YouTube on the last page too. Is this only a kite/wing thing where you're leaned over against the wind and the mast is providing a lifting surface? Would that type of ventilation even occur if you're just surf foiling?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on April 22, 2021, 02:23:46 PM
The mast ventilation issue reported here has nothing to do with the wing - and it's not an axis only thing, except indirectly with the HA foils by being faster and more efficient.

It's a result of 3 factors, the upward angle, the speed, and the mast section, and in particular the thickness of the mast relative to its chord.

It is caused by the water flow around the mast switching from laminar to turbulent flow. I'd imagine this creates an area of lower pressure around the mast, sucking in air, causing it to ventilate.

I'd imagine a longer mast gives more time to react before the air makes it down to the wing, which I think is the point when it it becomes unrecoverable.

I've never heard of it for masts with a thickness of less than 14mm, and I'd be very surprised to hear any reports of it for the axis carbon mast in any situation. However for the 19mm axis aluminium mast this effect is likely to come into play.

In the case of the HA axis wings such as the 980, you are able to go faster and at a great angle upwind than on other surf foils. Probably why nobody has reported it on any of the slower wings.

It was an often reported problem with the original liquid force kitefoil mast that had quite a narrow chord, but was quite wide at 20mm. I experienced it using the project cedrus mast (also 20mm thick) with various kitefoils when I cranked it hard upwind, more so with faster foils. I've never experienced it with the cedrus mast with any surf or wing foil, including the axis 980 v1, which is what I'm currently riding. I generally don't ride highly powered though, not by choice at least.

Good feedback thanks.

I've heard that people are experiencing it less with the axis carbon mast as it's obviously thinner.

The 19mm thickness of project cedrus has kind of put me off getting one as I was worried I wouldn't be able to go any faster than the current Ali 19mm plus ventilation. Good to hear you're not experiencing issues with it though.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Hdip on April 22, 2021, 07:13:33 PM
I just remembered that Gunnar talks about mast ventilation in his Project Cedrus mast review. I think he felt it was less likely to ventilate. I don't have time to go back through right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jsn-nhbU48&t=13s
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 22, 2021, 10:58:04 PM
I'm going to have to buy a project Cedrus mast since I had the same idea pretty much at the same time. I never implemented my idea and I'm glad I didn't since mine was a little wimpier. This looks cool.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on April 23, 2021, 07:17:46 AM
https://youtu.be/P5Tk-2IM3Ac

Nice video DW! Love the shape of that new board. My Gong HIPE has a similar, simple shape but its way heavier. I noticed that I can do the downward pulsing pumps on it really well. Like the french guy light wind video a few months back. Do you use that technique on this board? I also have the prized V1 980 and love it paired with the 380 stab. Its confusing going from black series back to red and having to remember how to pump them up to foil in light wind. I did notice that the HIPE is a bit sticky on touchdowns which I attribute to the flat bottom. How is yours on touchdowns? BTW, if you really want to max out your speed try a SS Dart. The 0-20mph is nucking futz! Send it!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on April 23, 2021, 07:29:04 AM
..... I noticed that I can do the downward pulsing pumps on it really well. Like the french guy light wind video a few months back. Do you use that technique on this board?

I donít recall that video, so Iím having trouble understanding what you describe. The board does slide down a piece of chop and reach planing speed really easy. No sticking, the tail fires it back onto foil automatically.
Quote
.... if you really want to max out your speed try a SS Dart. The 0-20mph is nucking futz! Send it!!!

It would be fun to demo a Dart. I have not seen one in person.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Phils on April 23, 2021, 08:12:34 AM
It is old school now but I am really enjoying working the small bumps with my 1150 on a light day.  Ensis 6/1150/420/short/86 carbon/KT Custom board.  Drone video by my friend Zack Kaplan.

https://www.facebook.com/phil.seu.58/videos/953039955468119
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on April 23, 2021, 11:13:31 AM
I winged my 1150 for the last two days, both at Kanaha and the harbor. It's a great wing. In the harbor I was using the 76CM mast and I was getting a lot of the "stutter" feeling that is probably the wing sucking air--maybe the fresh assortment of reef gouges is exacerbating the problem. I also overfoiled and crashed hard a couple of times. If it's good today I think I'll switch to my 860 and 96CM mast.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on May 11, 2021, 01:03:28 PM
Anyone got/ been on the BSC 890/810? Be good to get some feedback.

Cheers
Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on May 11, 2021, 04:22:05 PM
810 is my favorite foil for winging in waves.  Been using it with a kane tail.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on May 12, 2021, 03:49:01 AM
Great, how much do u weigh? And what wind strength do u need?

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on May 12, 2021, 10:42:40 PM
Further to that, do you prefer the 810 over the compromable HPS series wings?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on May 13, 2021, 07:37:37 AM
Anyone got/ been on the BSC 890/810? Be good to get some feedback.

Cheers
Mike
Yes, have been on both, and love both of them.....after a whole lotta fiddling to get the 890 to work for me.

I got the 890 before the 810, and could never to get it to work properly for me, and fiddled with different tails, different shims in the tails, shim under the last bolt of the 890 itself, moving it all over the mast tracks, and it just never really did anything that great. It turned OK, it pumped OK, but just OK compared to some of the other stuff I ride, and from what I expect that others (on prone boards, I'm on a sup) were raving about...so it eventually just got mothballed since I just couldn't seem to get it going.

But that all changed once I got the 810 in for the prone guys around these parts to try, since at 1070 cm2 of actual area, I figured there be no way it lifting me on a sup. Well dang, was I ever wrong...

Along with the 810 came a crazy short fuse that was supposed to be the ticket in getting it to crank the turns, and still be able to pump it all over the place (on a prone now remember). The first guy that took it out came back eyes wide, and all teeth showing with the big ol' smile on his face. He couldn't believe how "super fun" it was, and just how much initial lift it had in it...so much so, that after a sesh or two, he convinced me to try it on my sup.

Well hell, what a freakin' amazing little wing, that does have a surprising amount of lift outta the hole, turns as fast and hard as any foil I've ridden (the faster you go, the more it feels like it's on rails g-forcing you through the turns :o), and it pumped surprisingly well for its small size, although it didn't get me back out to connect another wave...that I just wrote that off as "when you get something, you give up something" I like to say about all the different setups, and I was more than happy to give that up for just how much it felt like I was actually "surfing" again...just now on a foil.

After several sessions with it, a light bulb came on (yes, it takes a while nowadays)....that if I can foil this wing, why can't/couldn't I surf its slightly larger big brother? 🤔💡 So I dug out the 890 again, threw it on the crazy short fuse with the 380 tail, and wholly moly...I had a whole new wing underneath me!!

The only thing I noticed, that for some reason (probably that I have now switched over to the newer V2 carbon mast)...I felt like I was flying downhill, with my front foot lower than my rear one, so I threw a single "Foilmount" shim under the front of baseplate, and again, what a completely different and wonderful setup I had stumbled onto. It got out of the water as easy as any of the wings I've ridden, and railed turns, and I was pumping out connecting waves (just 2fer ones, but that's all my old fireman worn lungs would allow anyway).

That all led up to yesterday, when we had a little longer period energy in the water, and I decided to just see how the 810 would act with this new angle of the dangle of the mast with the shim on it. Surprisingly and amazingly, it was still fast, turn incredibly...but I was also now able to pump back out and get a 2fer ones fairly regularly with it (when my lungs accommodated  :P ;D). Now I'm not saying everyone needs to use a baseplate shim with it, just on my board I needed it to get things aligned correctly....YMMV.

So yeah, both are "super fun" wings in the surf, but it might take a little bit to get them setup correctly, and I think the crazy short fuse it a big factor to consider with those two wings. At least that's what it took for me to get them working properly, but with that, it is a little trickier, because with that "short wheelbase", they do respond "RIT Now!" when you go to turn them, and you really have to be ready for it, or you can lose the tail as they're both a little squirrelier because of it.

Similar to what bigmtn wrote, they're now both "my favorite foil(s) for winging in waves".
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on May 13, 2021, 07:47:51 AM
Further to that, do you prefer the 810 over the compromable HPS series wings?
Right at the moment I do, but I've not thrown the 880 back on the new shimmed mast setup yet, so the jury's still kind of out on that until I'm able to test that out.

And just as a disclaimer to all of this being said since we're in the "wing foiling" section....all of that is wrt them in the surf w/o a wing, since I don't wingding, and don't plan on it. When the it gets windy, I get going to find something else to do that's out of it.🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on May 13, 2021, 11:02:08 PM
I don't blame you for that Slatch (Califoilia--old habits die hard), my five months in SoCal set my wingDing program back about a year. Chasing weenie wind and flying 7M wings is kind of pointless.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on May 14, 2021, 03:03:16 PM
Great, how much do u weigh? And what wind strength do u need?

Mike

165, 4m/5m fone wings if it isn't windy enough to get up on foil with the 810, it isn't windy enough to be worth winging.  I don't know what the numbers are, but if its windy, it works.  I wish there was a smaller version of the 810.

I haven't tried the 880, but I do have the 700 and 980.  I like them both, and the 700 is great in waves, but it needs a lot of wind to get up on foil.  So if it is cranking wind I'll take the 700, but most days I choose the 810.  If I'm doing downwingers or something where I want lots of glide, then I take the 980. Kane tail with rear shim for all.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: FoilBenny on May 18, 2021, 04:44:13 AM
So after reading the whole damn thread here, I've finally decided to buy an Axis as my first foil for winging.

I found a great deal on a BSC 890, with short fuselage and 390 stab. I imagine this will be my high wind/wave foil, but I probably need a bigger wing for learning and lighter winds.

I've foiled one season with a kite, so hopefully it won't be too frustrating to get started. Which b-series wing would you recommend as a bigger wing to get started? HPS 1050? HPS 980 too much overlap?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on May 18, 2021, 06:11:01 AM
Congrats on dropping into the axis wormhole! Its an exciting place. If you got the 890 coming, then the 1050 will be a great complement. If you have really light winds or are just a friggin joneser who will try at the slightest wiggle of a leaf, you will want to add an 1150 to the mix. The 390 goes great with all the wings. Its carvy but will hold back the potential top end of the bsc wings. As you progress and get the need for speed you can add a 380 HA stab. I decided to go axis last year after being annoyed by this thread and not being able to speak axis. There is not another foil brand that I know of that has been discussed in such frothy detail as right here on the Axis thread. I just had first session on the 890 and absolutely loved it. It gets up and going sooner and easier than the 890 or 1050. Its thicker and draggier but it didn't bother me at all. The smaller wingspan makes it so you can "mind foil" it. Meaning that you just think about where you want to go and its already doing it.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: FoilBenny on May 18, 2021, 07:16:34 AM
Thanks for the writeup. The decision to buy the BSC 890 was a bit random since I found a second hand one and since there isn't much information about it here. But I have wondered if max speed is really what toy want on the waves. I guess you will need more turns on a faster HPS Than a BSC to stay on, and not outrun the wave(but turns are fun of course). I saw the interview with Gunnar Biniach where he talks about prefering low aspect in waves. I've only used my chunky Slingshot Spaceskate which was fun, but hard to hold down when the speed increased down the wave.

This forum is really a goldmine of information! Happy to join the Axis bandwagon. Could be an expensive step for a guy that loves to test and tweak everything possible.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: FoilBenny on May 18, 2021, 10:53:43 AM
Btw if the 890 gets up earlier than the 1050, what would the benefit of owning the 1050 be?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on May 18, 2021, 09:39:19 PM
Further to that, do you prefer the 810 over the compromable HPS series wings?
Right at the moment I do, but I've not thrown the 880 back on the new shimmed mast setup yet, so the jury's still kind of out on that until I'm able to test that out.

And just as a disclaimer to all of this being said since we're in the "wing foiling" section....all of that is wrt them in the surf w/o a wing, since I don't wingding, and don't plan on it. When the it gets windy, I get going to find something else to do that's out of it.🤷‍♂️


Have you managed to get out on the 880 for comparison sake yet?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on May 19, 2021, 08:36:32 PM
Further to that, do you prefer the 810 over the compromable HPS series wings?
Right at the moment I do, but I've not thrown the 880 back on the new shimmed mast setup yet, so the jury's still kind of out on that until I'm able to test that out.

And just as a disclaimer to all of this being said since we're in the "wing foiling" section....all of that is wrt them in the surf w/o a wing, since I don't wingding, and don't plan on it. When the it gets windy, I get going to find something else to do that's out of it.🤷‍♂️

Have you managed to get out on the 880 for comparison sake yet?
Sorry for the late reply, just saw it now... :-[

But to answer your question, no I have not. Partly because the 880 has been loaned out until recently...and I'm having so much fun on the 810. :P ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on May 20, 2021, 10:22:19 AM
Further to that, do you prefer the 810 over the compromable HPS series wings?
Right at the moment I do, but I've not thrown the 880 back on the new shimmed mast setup yet, so the jury's still kind of out on that until I'm able to test that out.

And just as a disclaimer to all of this being said since we're in the "wing foiling" section....all of that is wrt them in the surf w/o a wing, since I don't wingding, and don't plan on it. When the it gets windy, I get going to find something else to do that's out of it.🤷‍♂️

Have you managed to get out on the 880 for comparison sake yet?
Sorry for the late reply, just saw it now... :-[

But to answer your question, no I have not. Partly because the 880 has been loaned out until recently...and I'm having so much fun on the 810. :P ;D

So what kind of size or wind does the 810 need?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: dylbert_ on May 21, 2021, 10:00:42 AM
Ive been winging the 810 in over 16kts, and prone foiling it from waist high, up to head high.

In my opinion, its a super versatile foil.  Super fun on both the wing and surfing, and it seems like I can pump it for as long as I want. one of my favorites in the axis range.

I weigh around 77kg.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on May 21, 2021, 11:51:03 AM
So what kind of size or wind does the 810 need?
I don't wing foil (yet...but that might be changing 🤦‍♂️🤫😂), but I have had it in thigh high surf, and it lifted off just fine, and was enough energy to make it super fun, and plenty playful up, down, and around the wave. BUT...I did add a shim under the back bolt to get just a little out-of-the-hole lift to get it to "Ollie" up a lot better.

However, with the shim on it in waist high and above stuff, I did find that it slowed it down noticeably, which didn't made it feel as though I wasn't on rails as much in the turns as before. Still turned fine, but I kind of like the feel of the "G's" pulling/pushing in the turns. One last thing....

The 810 also doesn't mind a wing tip coming out of the water...
(https://i.imgur.com/sfe8XVq.jpg?1) (https://i.imgur.com/xjiqRhp.jpg?1)
I completed that turn, and never know that tip came out, until the guy whose wife took the pictures came up to me on the beach and showed it to me. 🤷‍♂️👍

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on May 23, 2021, 06:01:36 PM
So what kind of size or wind does the 810 need?
I don't wing foil (yet...but that might be changing 🤦‍♂️🤫😂), but I have had it in thigh high surf, and it lifted off just fine, and was enough energy to make it super fun, and plenty playful up, down, and around the wave. BUT...I did add a shim under the back bolt to get just a little out-of-the-hole lift to get it to "Ollie" up a lot better.

However, with the shim on it in waist high and above stuff, I did find that it slowed it down noticeably, which didn't made it feel as though I wasn't on rails as much in the turns as before. Still turned fine, but I kind of like the feel of the "G's" pulling/pushing in the turns. One last thing....

The 810 also doesn't mind a wing tip coming out of the water...
(https://i.imgur.com/sfe8XVq.jpg?1) (https://i.imgur.com/xjiqRhp.jpg?1)
I completed that turn, and never know that tip came out, until the guy whose wife took the pictures came up to me on the beach and showed it to me. 🤷‍♂️👍

Ok so no 880 comparison yet. How about  810 versus the classic 900 w an ultra short?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on May 24, 2021, 04:29:19 PM
Ok so no 880 comparison yet. How about  810 versus the classic 900 w an ultra short?
So per your request, I unbolted the 810, and bolted on the 880...still w/the 380 tail, crazy short fuse, and 76cm v2 carbon mast.

It was waist to chest high with a little more wind then I'd liked, and just before the high tide, so it was pretty mixed up and sloppy out there, but after the first couple of takeoffs that I had to finally remember that the 880 doesn't lift off the water the same as the 810 (needs speed down the face to lift vs being able to "ollie" up the lower AR 810), it turned out to be a really fun day...just different.

The 880 is definitely faster, and as such, the turns were eye-watering, but very controllable, even to the point that I was able to bank it off the whitewater quickly, and it was stable throughout the turn...which it did surprisingly quickly. Now not as quick or snapping as the 810, and it was way more pitch sensitive, so you have to be nimble with your legs to let it pull up, and then push it back down quickly so that it to regain speed so it doesn't stall suddenly. The 810 just lifts out of that kind of turn quicker, and more controllably.

Probably the most notable difference is the ease in which it pumps. It's so fast, that I actually had to let to slow a tad once going over the wave, let it glide a bit (as it continues to lift some), and then push it back over slightly, and then let if come back up immediately. Doing this, I was able to pump out easier, and far further than I could come close to do with the 810...and I actually ran out of stamina more so than the wing running out of lift and glide.

Final verdict: While I was out there, I kept thinking, "Thanks Vancouver_foiler, now I don't know which setup I like better". Both are super fun, but completely different. The 880 is super fast, doesn't get into waves as easily, pumps great, and turns very well; just differently, and not as tight. Where the 810 pops up into waves super easy, turns like it's on rails, but really doesn't have the "actual area" (1070 cm2) to make it pump that great.

Hope that helps. 🤷‍♂️😁
Title: Re: Axis Foils--2nd foil selection
Post by: rfhestdalen on May 27, 2021, 11:32:11 PM
I have recently purchased the new 1120 BSC axis foil to start wing-foiling.  Been out 4 times in light to moderate winds and I am starting to get comfortable on foil with pretty long foil rides.  Its awesome and way better than behind the boat!  I'm 6'6", 215# and the 1120 has been a dream to ride.  Very smooth, doesn't breach, and turns easy.  However, I am a little concerned using the 1120 in high wind conditions this summer in the gorge, as it may be too much foil even for my weight. 

What would your recommendations be as I move into higher wind/wave conditions like the gorge?  I have been rec the 1050 HPS by axis and others have said no way, its much too advanced at my stage, requires lots of speed to foil, etc.  I have thought about the 970 BSC, a smaller more nimble version of 1120.  Would strongly consider the 1010 PNG, but apparently there is no more inventory for the rest of the year in the USA.  1150 on a crazy short fuselage?  Thought about the 910 or 860 but I think given my weight and beginner stage, I need an area around 1500 sq cm. 

Appreciate your thoughts on this. 
Title: Re: Axis Foils--2nd foil selection
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 28, 2021, 04:29:17 AM
ÖÖ a dream to ride.  Very smooth, doesn't breach, and turns easy. 


The dream will continue if you stay within the same family (BSC).

I did let a guy about your skill level try the HPS. He failed. Didnít get it. Wait until youíre so good, you know what you want next.
Title: Re: Axis Foils--2nd foil selection
Post by: Phils on May 28, 2021, 07:03:29 AM


What would your recommendations be as I move into higher wind/wave conditions like the gorge?  I have been rec the 1050 HPS by axis and others have said no way, its much too advanced at my stage, requires lots of speed to foil, etc.  I have thought about the 970 BSC, a smaller more nimble version of 1120.  Would strongly consider the 1010 PNG, but apparently there is no more inventory for the rest of the year in the USA.  1150 on a crazy short fuselage?  Thought about the 910 or 860 but I think given my weight and beginner stage, I need an area around 1500 sq cm. 

Appreciate your thoughts on this.

I would stick with a smaller BSC.  As far as the Gorge, you can find whatever conditions you want or are comfortable with so there is no ideal Gorge foil.  Even at a site like Swell City on a big day, half the river is pretty flat while the other half has good swell.  Yesterday, we had a big East Gorge day.  I was ok on the 910 using a 2 meter wing at 70kg.  My friend was on HPS 700?  I will try to post a video so you can see what you have to look forward to.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: rfhestdalen on May 28, 2021, 08:11:27 AM
Does the 970 BSC have a higher top-end speed than the 1120?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 28, 2021, 08:30:53 AM
Does the 970 BSC have a higher top-end speed than the 1120?

Yes, smaller wings are always faster, within the same ďfamilyĒ of wings. Less drag.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on May 29, 2021, 05:33:19 PM
Dear Axis elders,
I just got my carbon 860 mast and realize  the long screws from alum mast donít cross over to carbon mast with shorter pockets.  The other ones I have seem to fit but are they long enough? I think they are just the red series front wing screws. I donít have my metric tape here but the threads seem about 1Ēish. Thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 29, 2021, 06:15:50 PM
Dear Axis elders,
I just got my carbon 860 mast and realize  the long screws from alum mast donít cross over to carbon mast with shorter pockets.  The other ones I have seem to fit but are they long enough? I think they are just the red series front wing screws. I donít have my metric tape here but the threads seem about 1Ēish. Thanks

It uses M8 x 30 screws
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 30, 2021, 03:44:20 AM
Axis HPS-1050 on 86 carbon mast.
https://youtu.be/Wxrmwo84V4Q
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on May 30, 2021, 07:31:03 AM
Axis HPS-1050 on 86 carbon mast.
https://youtu.be/Wxrmwo84V4Q

Thanks Dwight for the screw info. Nice vid! Seemed windy enough for the 980. Would you say that the extra glide of the 1050 has your attention on swell riding days like this? I am torn many days whether I want to go as fast as I can (980v1/380) or go 1050 and be able to do more of my surface moves. Now I threw into the mix an 890 bsc which causes even more time deciding. The glide on the 890 is crap compared to the HPS but the carviness is far better. I am fired up to feel the carbon mast difference with all these wings. we are in doldrums till thursday. Send it!!!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 30, 2021, 08:32:02 AM

 Ö..Seemed windy enough for the 980.

It was blowing 13 mph when I rigged. No guarantees wind will increase.

With strong current in the water, the HPS-1050 was the safe bet to get on foil in that current. Otherwise, I always ride the 980.

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: SUPladomi on May 30, 2021, 09:09:52 AM
Nice rides!

This makes me want to order your board! Although could I even get one this season??

What is the design profile of the V4R Wide as opposed to the V4R?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on May 30, 2021, 09:22:01 AM

What is the design profile of the V4R Wide as opposed to the V4R?

Wide is easier. More kook friendly. Standard model is better for strapped guys, planning to jump and spin. Everything else is the same between the two.

I shut off new orders. Taking some me time to travel later this summer.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: SUPladomi on May 30, 2021, 09:42:24 AM
Cool, thanks. Enjoy your me time.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on May 31, 2021, 06:12:08 AM
So the HPS880 is my go to size for wing. Over the weekend we've had near 30kn winds and I was finally able to use the HPS700 on the wing (to date its been used for kite foiling mostly).....and wow what a fun wing it is. It's so much looser and turns so nice. When I went back to the 880 it felt like a door  ;D however the 700 does need a lot of wing power to get going plus doesn't have much glide. I was actually surprised how different the 2 are. Hopefully we'll see a smaller version of the 880 one day with a similar aspect ratio 8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: deja vu on June 15, 2021, 02:31:49 PM
Here's a review and comparison of some off the best high performance foils available now, including the Axis 980:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ6zUq1l0jo
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on June 15, 2021, 06:09:57 PM
I rode my trusty 1000/390 with my new 6M F-one Strike CWC. Damn, that's good stuff. I know there are zootier wings--I have some of them, but I've been mostly sticking to my plan of mastering a single setup so I can put the foil out of my mind and focus on tacks and jibes. I don't think I could have picked a better combination.

I did another "hanging off the wing" jibe today. One out of ten I tried, but damn, that was cool. Very stunt-like, to the point that several people mentioned it when I got back to the beach. It's still about 80 percent accidental, 10 percent on purpose, and 10 percent I was planning on doing something different and that happened. But yeah, I'm rocking that. I'm contemplating footstraps again to make it more of a controlled thing instead of hoping that the board comes along with me.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Alysum on June 16, 2021, 06:19:11 AM
I rode my trusty 1000/390 with my new 6M F-one Strike CWC. Damn, that's good stuff. I know there are zootier wings--I have some of them, but I've been mostly sticking to my plan of mastering a single setup so I can put the foil out of my mind and focus on tacks and jibes. I don't think I could have picked a better combination.

I did another "hanging off the wing" jibe today. One out of ten I tried, but damn, that was cool. Very stunt-like, to the point that several people mentioned it when I got back to the beach. It's still about 80 percent accidental, 10 percent on purpose, and 10 percent I was planning on doing something different and that happened. But yeah, I'm rocking that. I'm contemplating footstraps again to make it more of a controlled thing instead of hoping that the board comes along with me.
Oohh I would love to hear your thoughts on the strike CWS! I have the 4.2m but unsure whether I could stand those floppy handles for such a big wing....
EDIT I saw your thread on it.  ;D

1000/390 was my trustsy set-up last summer. Very good but time to switch to HPS880  8)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: wingdingjoe on June 28, 2021, 10:06:15 AM
By ANY chance is anyone liquidating their gear/changing brands etc that might have a used 420 stab? Pm please..  ::)
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on June 28, 2021, 09:39:03 PM
I rode my trusty 1000/390 with my new 6M F-one Strike CWC. Damn, that's good stuff. I know there are zootier wings--I have some of them, but I've been mostly sticking to my plan of mastering a single setup so I can put the foil out of my mind and focus on tacks and jibes. I don't think I could have picked a better combination.

I did another "hanging off the wing" jibe today. One out of ten I tried, but damn, that was cool. Very stunt-like, to the point that several people mentioned it when I got back to the beach. It's still about 80 percent accidental, 10 percent on purpose, and 10 percent I was planning on doing something different and that happened. But yeah, I'm rocking that. I'm contemplating footstraps again to make it more of a controlled thing instead of hoping that the board comes along with me.
Oohh I would love to hear your thoughts on the strike CWS! I have the 4.2m but unsure whether I could stand those floppy handles for such a big wing....
EDIT I saw your thread on it.  ;D

1000/390 was my trustsy set-up last summer. Very good but time to switch to HPS880  8)

The 6M CWC is now my favorite wingding by far. I use it when I absolutely shouldn't. Everyone else is out on 4.2 and thinking of 3.5 and I'm pumping up the 6.0. I gave myself a stiff neck hanging on to it in stupidly overpowered conditions just because it's so fun. And of course, I use a fake boom so my handles aren't floppy.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: burchas on June 29, 2021, 06:13:50 PM
The 6M CWC is now my favorite wingding by far...

By Far indeed. I can pretty much blow air into it and get up on the foil :D I took the 3.5 Swing out today and felt naked even though it was perfectly sized for the conditions.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on June 29, 2021, 10:41:27 PM
I'm winging on 1000/500, standard fuse, 91 cm mast. I am looking for more speed for wing riding in wave & swell. Is 980 wing faster than 1000 (....but not too fast for riding swell)?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 30, 2021, 04:33:12 AM
I'm winging on 1000/500, standard fuse, 91 cm mast. I am looking for more speed for wing riding in wave & swell. Is 980 wing faster than 1000 (....but not too fast for riding swell)?

Compared to the 1000, the 980 has better top AND low end. Get the 420 tail too.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on July 03, 2021, 11:14:13 PM
I'm winging on 1000/500, standard fuse, 91 cm mast. I am looking for more speed for wing riding in wave & swell. Is 980 wing faster than 1000 (....but not too fast for riding swell)?

Compared to the 1000, the 980 has better top AND low end. Get the 420 tail too.

Agreed. 980 rips.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 06, 2021, 11:02:34 AM
I had been riding the Axis red standard fuse (765 cm). Yesterday I put on the short fuse (680 cm) for first time and was slightly faster and able to 'stay on' swell better. This is the hoped for outcome.... but I have to be honest I don't understand it. Any explanations for why a shorter fuse would be faster and allow me to 'stay on' swell better?

P.S. I am riding the Axis 1000/500 on 92 cm Project Cedrus mast.

Thinking of going to the 980/400HA on short Black Series ultrashort fuse for riding swell (what Evan from Axis recommended, I'm 90 kg).

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on July 06, 2021, 07:01:20 PM
I had been riding the Axis red standard fuse (765 cm). Yesterday I put on the short fuse (680 cm) for first time and was slightly faster and able to 'stay on' swell better. This is the hoped for outcome.... but I have to be honest I don't understand it. Any explanations for why a shorter fuse would be faster and allow me to 'stay on' swell better?

P.S. I am riding the Axis 1000/500 on 92 cm Project Cedrus mast.

Thinking of going to the 980/400HA on short Black Series ultrashort fuse for riding swell (what Evan from Axis recommended, I'm 90 kg).

dude, the 980 is the next gen 1000. It is an amazing wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: unclesaltdog on July 07, 2021, 04:28:29 AM
I had been riding the Axis red standard fuse (765 cm). Yesterday I put on the short fuse (680 cm) for first time and was slightly faster and able to 'stay on' swell better. This is the hoped for outcome.... but I have to be honest I don't understand it. Any explanations for why a shorter fuse would be faster and allow me to 'stay on' swell better?

P.S. I am riding the Axis 1000/500 on 92 cm Project Cedrus mast.

Thinking of going to the 980/400HA on short Black Series ultrashort fuse for riding swell (what Evan from Axis recommended, I'm 90 kg).


dude, the 980 is the next gen 1000. It is an amazing wing.

I'm 90kg as well, I used the 1000/400 combo pretty much exclusively for ages then went to the 460 tail (or rear but I I prefer to call it a tail wing, just to give Adrian the shits 😀)

If you do nothing else I would suggest trying a 460 or 420 tail.

However I now mainly use the 980 and thoroughly recommend it, the speed and glide is insane, so addictive.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: liv2surf on July 07, 2021, 12:21:51 PM
I had been riding the Axis red standard fuse (765 cm). Yesterday I put on the short fuse (680 cm) for first time and was slightly faster and able to 'stay on' swell better. This is the hoped for outcome.... but I have to be honest I don't understand it. Any explanations for why a shorter fuse would be faster and allow me to 'stay on' swell better?

P.S. I am riding the Axis 1000/500 on 92 cm Project Cedrus mast.

Thinking of going to the 980/400HA on short Black Series ultrashort fuse for riding swell (what Evan from Axis recommended, I'm 90 kg).


dude, the 980 is the next gen 1000. It is an amazing wing.

I'm 90kg as well, I used the 1000/400 combo pretty much exclusively for ages then went to the 460 tail (or rear but I I prefer to call it a tail wing, just to give Adrian the shits 😀)

If you do nothing else I would suggest trying a 460 or 420 tail.

However I now mainly use the 980 and thoroughly recommend it, the speed and glide is insane, so addictive.

what water surface conditions (flat, swell, waves) do you ride in (now with 980)? ...and what 'tail wing' and fuse are you using?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on July 07, 2021, 09:12:35 PM
I had been riding the Axis red standard fuse (765 cm). Yesterday I put on the short fuse (680 cm) for first time and was slightly faster and able to 'stay on' swell better. This is the hoped for outcome.... but I have to be honest I don't understand it. Any explanations for why a shorter fuse would be faster and allow me to 'stay on' swell better?

P.S. I am riding the Axis 1000/500 on 92 cm Project Cedrus mast.

Thinking of going to the 980/400HA on short Black Series ultrashort fuse for riding swell (what Evan from Axis recommended, I'm 90 kg).


dude, the 980 is the next gen 1000. It is an amazing wing.

I'm 90kg as well, I used the 1000/400 combo pretty much exclusively for ages then went to the 460 tail (or rear but I I prefer to call it a tail wing, just to give Adrian the shits 😀)

If you do nothing else I would suggest trying a 460 or 420 tail.

However I now mainly use the 980 and thoroughly recommend it, the speed and glide is insane, so addictive.

what water surface conditions (flat, swell, waves) do you ride in (now with 980)? ...and what 'tail wing' and fuse are you using?

For winging I'm on the Short. For proper surf waves I'm Ultra-Short. I Oscillate between the 420 and KD Maui. I'm in the process of retrofitting the extra kujira stab I have from my 1440 wingset. Conditions wise, the full gambit-flat, surf, wind chop, whatever is happening really.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: grizzlyChadams on July 19, 2021, 11:09:46 PM
Hello everyone. First off, thanks for all the info. It's been cool to read through all the posts and feel the stoke. I kind of wish I had found this forum earlier  :)

Compared to most of the people here, I am a complete newbie. I started wake foiling behind the jet ski last fall, and learned how to wing foil this winter/spring. I come from a board sports background, but this is my first wind sport. We've got a small crew out here in Lincoln City OR, and I've benefited from chasing them. I started on the Slingshot HG platform, but it didn't work for winging (for me). I jumped to an 1150 PNG, short fuse with a 400 stab. I'm 80kg, so the 1150 has been a dream to learn on. Lately, we've been getting 3-4 sessions a week, with a little bit of progression each time. It's been super cool to start something completely new and to have such tangible results. It has been so fun lately. I recently picked up a 460HA stab and have had 3 sessions on it. It's made linking jibe turns much easier. We've done a tow foil session offshore, and I am looking to pick up an 860SP or possibly a 760 for that.

Super stoked to be here, and winging. I've never really felt anything like being on foil at speed. I hope I can add a little to the conversation. Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: grizzlyChadams on July 22, 2021, 07:28:24 PM
First ocean session today at Road's End. I was today years old when I learned that ocean winging is harder than lake winging. :-)

NW 3.5' at 6s or so with a little SW 1.4' at 13s. A bit jumbled, but I was able to get up and get out past the breakers. Super fun, but I couldn't string turns together at all. Out, turn, crash... in, turn, crash.  Was out for an hour or so, but I should have come in sooner. I got worked coming into the beach. So many sharp and inflated things moving chaotically. I think I need more flat water time, but tomorrow is forecast to be better, i.e. flatter with more wind. :-) Hope everyone is scoring! Cheers!
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on July 22, 2021, 07:38:21 PM
Welcome to the group grizzly. The ocean riding will get easier the more you do it. Try going with the flow of the waves and swell. It's all about the foil so just pump more instead of relying on the wing's power.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on July 23, 2021, 02:10:12 PM
Anyone have the new BSC 740 and can compare it to the 700?  I have the 700 and like it, though it sometimes can be a pain to get it up on foil.  Wondering what the 740 does better/worse.

thanks
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 23, 2021, 03:07:00 PM
Anyone have the new BSC 740 and can compare it to the 700?  I have the 700 and like it, though it sometimes can be a pain to get it up on foil.  Wondering what the 740 does better/worse.

thanks

Have you considered the 830? That would keep you in the same family (HPS).
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on July 23, 2021, 04:23:50 PM
Anyone have the new BSC 740 and can compare it to the 700?  I have the 700 and like it, though it sometimes can be a pain to get it up on foil.  Wondering what the 740 does better/worse.

thanks

Have you considered the 830? That would keep you in the same family (HPS).

I really like the 810, and want a smaller version.... but if the 700 and 740 feel very similar than no need spend the extra money.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: grizzlyChadams on July 24, 2021, 06:08:17 PM
Welcome to the group grizzly. The ocean riding will get easier the more you do it. Try going with the flow of the waves and swell. It's all about the foil so just pump more instead of relying on the wing's power.

Thanks flkiter, I appreciate the tips. Unfortunately, I missed the ocean session yesterday but I caught a quick flat water session today. Hope to get back out this week. Cheers!

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: K-541` on August 01, 2021, 02:22:45 PM
 Lookin for something smaller than 930 HPS probably should have gone 880 but hindsight oh well. 700 might be to small DW mentioned an 830 HPS is that a typo or has that wing not made it on the Axis site yet? Thanks for any info
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 01, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
ÖÖ. DW mentioned an 830 HPS is that a typo or has that wing not made it on the Axis site yet? Thanks for any info

Itís on the Axis site. Go to the bottom and look at the chart on screw sizes for different wings. The 830 is listed there. Itís coming.

https://axisfoils.com/collections/high-performance-speed
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: K-541` on August 01, 2021, 05:11:11 PM
 Thanks  that might be an interesting wing.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on August 01, 2021, 05:57:48 PM
What should I cut my 460 tail down to?
I have been loving the 380. I am usually on the 890 or the 980v1.
I was thinking 400ish like the HA400. It seems like almost the same shape as the 460?
Maybe 420? Just cuz.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mario_Wings on August 02, 2021, 04:47:27 AM
ÖÖ. DW mentioned an 830 HPS is that a typo or has that wing not made it on the Axis site yet? Thanks for any info

Itís on the Axis site. Go to the bottom and look at the chart on screw sizes for different wings. The 830 is listed there. Itís coming.

https://axisfoils.com/collections/high-performance-speed

here is the link to the 830

https://axisfoils.com/products/830mm-hps-carbon-front-wing
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Califoilia on August 02, 2021, 10:20:43 PM
What should I cut my 460 tail down to?
I have been loving the 380. I am usually on the 890 or the 980v1.
I was thinking 400ish like the HA400. It seems like almost the same shape as the 460?
Maybe 420? Just cuz.
The 400HA is the exact same shape as the 460 when laid on top of it...just 30mm shorter on each end.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mario_Wings on August 04, 2021, 04:32:04 AM
Does anyone find that the 700 HPS specs are not in sync with the other HPS wings?

Looking at chord and volume.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 04, 2021, 12:14:43 PM
Does anyone find that the 700 HPS specs are not in sync with the other HPS wings?

Looking at chord and volume.

When you see the 700 in person, it looks like an old wing. Low aspect, black sheep of the HPS familyÖ ;D ;D. Iíve been offered a demo ride on it several times and declined just based on the look of it. Figured it wasnít for me.

Now the 830, thatís a hot one. I have one.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on August 04, 2021, 01:22:13 PM
Guys,
Iím still dithering on my next foil set. Iím 77kg with 6,4.5,3.5,2.5 wings. I have the 1060 and 910 which I use in a 1:9 ratio. I canít afford to make a mistake so do I go 980/880 or 930/830? I ride choppy onshore waves mostly. I guess the 980/880 will span what I use the 910 in but was thinking if the 930 low end is like my 910 then I could do 930/830?
Guidance is appreciated.

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mario_Wings on August 04, 2021, 01:31:13 PM
Does anyone find that the 700 HPS specs are not in sync with the other HPS wings?

Looking at chord and volume.

When you see the 700 in person, it looks like an old wing. Low aspect, black sheep of the HPS familyÖ ;D ;D. Iíve been offered a demo ride on it several times and declined just based on the look of it. Figured it wasnít for me.

Now the 830, thatís a hot one. I have one.


and looking at the 650, Aspect Ratio should 5.68 by my calculation so maybe similar looking to 700.

Maybe preferred AR for smaller sized HPS wings.

Am waiting for the 830 to show up here in Oz.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on August 04, 2021, 08:33:30 PM
I've got the 980/880 and it covers me for all my needs. Good quiver.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on August 05, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
Thanks Vancouver, how much do you weigh? Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: daswusup on August 05, 2021, 03:41:48 PM
If you are not winging on the 890, you are doing it wrong. I am baffled by the range of this beast. Mostly, the low end. I was missing this on the HPS wings. I can ride this one at a walking pace and just slash and pump around. I never thought this slow of a speed was possible on a 1290cm wing that has skateboard handling. Frothing
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Vancouver_foiler on August 06, 2021, 10:46:54 PM
Thanks Vancouver, how much do you weigh? Mike
190 pre-wetsuit
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: EastBayFoiler on August 08, 2021, 08:49:42 PM
Hi,
I'm running into issues with my 1060 breaching like crazy. I think I just have too much lift in 20-25 kts. I'm 200lbs flying a 5m strike. I was thinking a 1010, 910, or 970 might solve this. Thoughts?

Also if you're thinking of selling one let me know.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: bigmtn on August 09, 2021, 03:03:00 PM
Hi,
I'm running into issues with my 1060 breaching like crazy. I think I just have too much lift in 20-25 kts. I'm 200lbs flying a 5m strike. I was thinking a 1010, 910, or 970 might solve this. Thoughts?

Also if you're thinking of selling one let me know.

what tail wing? have you tried adding a tail shim to decrease lift?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: paddlur on August 09, 2021, 04:04:54 PM
Hi,
I'm running into issues with my 1060 breaching like crazy. I think I just have too much lift in 20-25 kts. I'm 200lbs flying a 5m strike. I was thinking a 1010, 910, or 970 might solve this. Thoughts?

Also if you're thinking of selling one let me know.
Surprised to hear that really,although I'm 25 lbs heavier.Ive been riding my 1060 for months in those similar conditions and rarely have breaching problems with the 1060 unless due to major pilot error on my part it's a very forgiving,stable cruisy highly reliable wing in my opinion,perhaps your rear wing might be a player I'm using a 420 rear perfect with 1060,maybe 380 with your weight might be better and you are probably at those windspeeds in 4m-4.5m territory,I usually ride my 5.2 Ensis or 4.5  in those wind speeds or simply get the BSC 970 and case solved with a 4m wing
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: EastBayFoiler on August 09, 2021, 04:37:12 PM
I'm definitely struggling with tuning the foil. I used to have it all the way back, and breeching was still a problem. With it all the way back I'm mostly balancing on my rear foot above the mast. I moved it forward about 2 inches to what a lot of people recommend, lining up the center of balance of the board with the center of lift of the foil. With it pushed forward, it feels so much better to ride, but the breeching is worse. In both cases I'm standing forward of all the strap holes. I've heard sometimes boards and foils don't pair up well. I'm wondering if that's the case. I got some WizardHat trim plates to see if I could fix some of the issues. I haven't used them yet.

I'm running a 125l Naish hover board GS, 75cm mast, standard fuse, 440 rear, and obviously a 1060 front.

There's always the possibility that This is newbie problems, but I work harder to avoid breeching than I do to get up on foil or avoid touching down.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: flkiter on August 09, 2021, 05:58:45 PM
Are you using the straps in the naish? Their track is designed for naish foils so it's too far forward for most. My buddy had to add strap holes forward of the stock holes to correct the lift issue.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: PonoBill on August 09, 2021, 06:57:19 PM
Bigmtn has the answer, and it's easy to try. Put a thin washer as a test shim on the front stabilizer screw between the stabilizer and fuselage. Try it out. You'll find you have to go a bit faster to get up, but you'll have less front foot pressure and can move your foot back. Less porpoising and less breaching. I have my foils shimmed to the point that my front foot is at the handle.

I think Axis makes their stabilizer to wing incidence angle fairly extreme--like 5+ degrees with some combinations of wing and stabilizer. I assume they do that to make it easier for beginners to get up and foiling, but when you start going faster it's just too much. I use 2-3 degrees. You can search the zone for posts on incidence angle that show how to measure and set this. The high incidence angle is particularly problematic with high aspect wings that need to be flown flat off the surface--popping them up with AOA just makes them stall and slam back down.

I also just the wizard hat shim plates and bolts. That won't really fix your breaching issue, but it lets the board ride parallel to the water instead of nose-high as any board with tail rocker will tend to ride. You can visually set this up--just add plates until the fuselage is parallel to the middle of the board. Newer flat-bottomed wing boards don't need this.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: EastBayFoiler on August 09, 2021, 07:15:41 PM
Thanks everyone. I missed bigmtn's post. Having a resource like this is great. I watched all the videos trying to figure this out, and this is so much more useful. I'll post the results, when I'm done messing my foils.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 10, 2021, 02:36:10 AM
Bigmtn has the answer, and it's easy to try. Put a thin washer as a test shim on the front stabilizer screw between the stabilizer and fuselage. Try it out. You'll find you have to go a bit faster to get up, but you'll have less front foot pressure and can move your foot back. Less porpoising and less breaching. I have my foils shimmed to the point that my front foot is at the handle.

I think Axis makes their stabilizer to wing incidence angle fairly extreme--like 5+ degrees with some combinations of wing and stabilizer. I assume they do that to make it easier for beginners to get up and foiling, but when you start going faster it's just too much. I use 2-3 degrees. You can search the zone for posts on incidence angle that show how to measure and set this. The high incidence angle is particularly problematic with high aspect wings that need to be flown flat off the surface--popping them up with AOA just makes them stall and slam back down.

I have problems with porpoising and a hard to control foil when starting to fly when I am fully powered up with my wing, especially with the HPS foils.
It is stupid that Axis only provides the +1 Degree Rear Wing Shim in the screw set and not the -1 Degree Rear Wing Shim

Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 10, 2021, 02:37:58 AM
Thanks everyone. I missed bigmtn's post. Having a resource like this is great. I watched all the videos trying to figure this out, and this is so much more useful. I'll post the results, when I'm done messing my foils.

So answer his question: what rear did you use?
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Foilgeoff on August 10, 2021, 03:03:34 AM
I had the same problem with my Naish 135 litre 5-7 inflatable. I couldnít get myself far enough forward to stop the front coming up to smack me in the face. Absolutely terrifying for a beginner!
My setup is 87kg, 82cm mast, 1020 foil, mast right at the back of the tracks.
I tried shimming with up to 3 washers on the front screw but it didnít help that much.
What REALLY did the trick was drilling out the threads on the forward-most of the rear mast base holes, and using 35mm (?) M8 bolts rather than the 30mm ones.
 This gained me about an inch more rearward adjustment. The foil came up much easier without any shim washers but the addition of 3 shim-washers made it come up smooth and gorgeous.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 10, 2021, 03:34:14 AM
My wife at 116 lbs is riding exactly what you ride. 1060/440 to learn tacks. No issue what so ever.

Itís nothing more complicated than understanding wind range. 25 knots with a 5mÖ.no way for most people. Sure you can shim the shit out of the stab, or put a tiny stab on it and get more upper end, but all at the expense of low end.

Take a 4m and ride slower and in control. Get a smaller front wing or stab. Be prepared to make changes suitable for the conditions of each day.

Newbies want one foil and one wing for all winds. It doesnít work that way.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: blockidog on August 10, 2021, 04:55:53 AM
I run BSC 1060/390 with Short Fuse/75 Mast at 170 lb's.

My most recent session was in gusty - 18 to 28mph - conditions and started on Ensis 5.2 and dropped to my 3.5.  No issues with breaching and I run the mast with good bias to the front of the track.

Life long windsurfer so I am proficient at sail (wing) trim when powered or OP.  This helps I am sure.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Badger on August 10, 2021, 05:31:26 AM
I've still only had one windy session with the 1060/440 and 5m Duo Unit. It was blowing 15 to 20, maybe 25, and I was surprised how easily the board came out of the water. The problem that day seemed to be that I was getting way too much lift which I attributed to having the mast too far forward. Feeling all that lift made me wonder why so many videos show people furiously pumping their wings to get up on foil. It did seem a bit windy for the 5m wing and felt like I had more power than I needed. I immediately started thinking about getting a smaller wing. I have windsurfing and sailing experience so at least I have that going for me

All this talk about shimming and wing incidence is a bit complicated to a beginner.  Hopefully, I'll be able to learn to foil without messing with the wing angles.

I just acquired a small boat for towing. That should dramatically speed up my learning and allow me to practice on these windless days.



Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: EastBayFoiler on August 10, 2021, 06:53:11 AM
Thanks everyone. I missed bigmtn's post. Having a resource like this is great. I watched all the videos trying to figure this out, and this is so much more useful. I'll post the results, when I'm done messing my foils.

So answer his question: what rear did you use?
440, it's also listed in my sig.
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: soepkip on August 10, 2021, 07:41:02 AM
440, it's also listed in my sig.

Ahhh  I missed that.
Most signatures are outdated so I sort of ignore them....
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on August 10, 2021, 10:21:14 AM
Whilst talking stabilisers, I put the 420 on my 910 instead of my usual 390 today. What a difference, more speed and glide, similar turning but less lift. Had rear leg burn instead of my usual neutral legs. Think Iíll try moving the mast forward a smidge.

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on August 15, 2021, 07:53:18 AM
Took Dawasup advice and got the 890. Had first session today with my 420. Great foil, faster and better in every way, also great bottom end. Lots to learn on it, but really pleased with my change.

Mike
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: grizzlyChadams on August 15, 2021, 10:45:26 AM
Took Dawasup advice and got the 890. Had first session today with my 420. Great foil, faster and better in every way, also great bottom end. Lots to learn on it, but really pleased with my change.

Mike

Hey Mike,
I was curious, what front foil were you running before? Was the 890 a big size drop for you? I exchanged email with Axis this week because I was looking for a new foil for prone surf and towing. I was looking at either the 860SP or the 890BSC. I went with the 890 because I thought it would be a better "one foil quiver" for what I want to do. Slightly concerned about dropping sizes so much, but I have been on a buddies GL 180 before without issue. The GL180 and 890 have similar specs in the google spreadsheet, and the folks on this board seem to love the black series. Time to see what the hype is about. :-)

Thanks,
Chad
Title: Re: Axis Foils
Post by: Mike dubs on August 15, 2021, 01:07:28 PM
I had the 1060 and 910 but really only used the 910. Iím 77kg and found I could manage on the 910 from light to strong wind, but wanted something a bit extra.

The 890/420 combo is fast but also a good crawl speed. It turns really well.

The wind today was up and down on my 3.5m and I had no trouble pumping onto the foil in the lulls but also felt ve