Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: ospreysup on August 04, 2019, 09:40:15 PM
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I guess part of the journey is finding the next board. Just an observation but once you get past a starter board and as you take your surfing to new heights a new board from a quality builder is about $1700+ and in most cases add shipping. Sunova, Jimmy Lewis, Naish, Kings, L41, Supsports, Blue Planet, Infinity and JP are all around $1700 (L41's starter price is cheaper but you have to add the good stuff). And Starboard goes higher. Bic and Fanatic a little less. Most are tough to demo, particularly on the east coast. If you are XXL like me even tougher to demo. I own a Sunova and man it takes a licking. It is so interesting to me to see the differences and similarities in construction and design of similar boards but what separates them? Personal preference I guess. But I figure the durability of the build really is the value because the idea would be: expensive but many good years of use makes it worthwhile.
And going used means you have to find the right one because you are usually still talking $1,000+ or taking the risk it was properly repaired.
I have been shopping used and new but I think if I am going to spend that kind of money every couple of year I am going to have it built custom for me. Really curious how the cost conscious make their decisions. New, used, custom, stock, demo or just based on reviews?
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Trying to pick the right one to marry is always a risk. Sometimes what you think is the perfect right custom one for you, isn't. I've found the hottest used one, love you back:)
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Yes, this is good question. There tend to be three types of buyers IMO. There are impulse buyers, who tend to be influenced by how a board looks and the marketing blurb. Then there are some for whom the price is everything - and the sense of having found a bargain. Then there are those who obsess about everything. Only the last type regularly demo boards. But if that is you, it’s still the best way. But in practice you get to know which shapers/brands produce boards that provide features, and a balance of them, that you like, and this can help in your decisions. (You also get to know which brands don’t have the same priorities as you, and so can avoid them. There is one big brand for instance that I rarely bother trying or even look at, since I just don’t feel that I would be proud to own them (despite owning three of their boards.))
There are still a few brands that offer designs and/or constructions that are unlike any other. An example is Hypr Nalu Hawaii. So if these more exclusive outfits are offering what you want then the only decision to make is which model to buy.
Customs are a risk because the resale tends to be so low. They can be great if you really know exactly what you want. But if you don’t, it would be better to buy a custom used, to avoid the depreciation.
In general, we are not well served by many of the big brands in terms of the construction/price ratio. So it is a good idea to really learn about what good constructions are, and to pay attention to that aspect of your purchase. IMO the boards made in the Kinetic factory in Vietnam (e.g. Jimmy Lewis) tend to be better value (and often better made) than those made in the Cobra factory in Thailand (many of the other brands). I’ve had some shockingly badly made (IMO) Cobra boards over the last few years.
There are also a few smaller brands that can provide extremely good value for money, and/or unusual designs. An example there would be Gong, which isn’t available in the US. So it is worth doing your research, and looking wider than just the main brands, if you aren’t a person driven only by impulse or price.
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i've bought my share of boards over the years, and have had the best luck with Starboard. I've done custom, but it doesn't necessarily mean well built, or more proper for me. i still have a garage of boards i'll likely never step on again, and cannot even sell them. i've given away several for free. i used to think there was always something better out there, even if i was quite happy with what i currently had. now, i'm content and only read about new boards to stay aware/current. my last Starboard lasted 5 years, with much abuse, and i just went out and got the same one (later model, of course, but a design and construction i'm totally satisfied with).
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Surfing since 1964.... the only criteria I used, was to have the best surfing equipment possible.
Since it was the focus of my life, a good board was my number 1 priority.
My cars could be beaters and my house a shack.... but my gear was always top notch.
That doesn't mean the most expensive.... but it did mean I was a student of the market and learned what I wanted, then found a way to get it.
There has alway been a steep loss of value in surfing equipment and a dear price for new.
SUP was the same way, right from day one.
Given the prices... that made it more difficult, but I still managed a quiver, which usually consisted models from of 3 or 4 quality brands.
IMO, used boards are a great way to save money.
Luckily, the "shortboard revolution" of SUP design has stabilized in a very good place.
Many boards are now good enough to last a lifetime of service..... design wise, and construction wise.
I disagree that any board under $1,000 must be damaged in some way.
In this market, I basically advise anyone wishing to sell, even a newish board, that they MUST price below $1,000, IF they actually want to sell it.
Because of the expense that buying new involved, I adopted a new "line-up strategy":
"I love the look of your board! Want to swap boards for a bit?"
try everything... most folks are happy to let you ride their board.
You can learn a lot from these mini "demos"
Many boards turn me off immediately, but I never say that to the owners.... or post negative stuff about any boards or brands on the internet.
I realize that lots of people will love the exact same board that doesn't suit me.
As far as quality.... I think that is easy enough to learn, if you search on the forums.
Dismiss any negativity that is strongly offered by folks who may have a hidden agenda.
Good reviews are out there... just sometimes hard to find.
"Private message" any reviewer or owner and ask specific questions....
Fact is, I am always willing to be more candid about brands or models that I do or do not like, when I am off line.
Simply put, it takes a dedication and work to learn as much as possible.
Personally.... I love the "hunt"
Be introspective about your ability, goals and conditions you surf.
Focus on what will really suit you best.... not the hype of "going smaller", fancy construction or "look who's riding this board"
A board properly selected for YOU is worth the effort and expense....and will bring you years of great sessions.
SUP is actually quite cheap in the long run..... how much does your car cost you every year? Or eating out?
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well said creek
and check into skiing--the kit's more expensive to begin with, but the kit aint remotely the cost!!!
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and beached, what would be really meanigful would be to share details re the starby youve married, along with some specs on you (ht wt ability etc)
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Osprey,
As another XXL guy Here is what 52 yrs of surf has taught me (well not everything but in board selection)
First...I concur with CREEK on all points
I just want to add a few
1) As you know equipment doesnt work the same for us BIG BOYS as it does for internet influencers/website
2) It has been my extensive experience with surf designs...The best way to get a truly MAGICAL board for any person is getting a custom shape from a reputable shaper...BUT you have to "Kiss a lot of Frogs"
In other words you can't expect a first off custom board to be magic...It "could Be" depending on your definition of magic. A Shaper surfer relationship requires communication ridding other mfg's boards, what you liked and disliked (Creek does this well) What you want from your next board. just don't get your hopes up for your first custom board.
3) WHAT ABOUT PRODUCTION BOARDS???
Well since you are paying real $$$ for your next board and "Kissing Frogs" ain't fun. Quality production board remove that aspect. But you gotta know what you are buying. That is where a GOOD retailer comes in They can talk to designers/Manufacturing folks/ team riders and regular folks who have bought it before. All these groups and more add information for you to get you the best board... No garrentee on Magical although I can name several production boards I call magical (for me)
Lastly, your prices seem a bit high there are several of those manufactures that are significantly less than you are quoting. I can't go into that detail here but PM or email me to discuss options in detail.
Hope This helps
JimK
Extreme Windsurfing
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and beached, what would be really meanigful would be to share details re the starby youve married, along with some specs on you (ht wt ability etc)
i purposely didn't mention it, and after i posted, i kind of wished i didn't even mention Starboard. My point was more against a commonly heard phrase about going custom versus big production. for me, i've had better luck with big production boards than custom. i don't think this thread was meant to be the 10 millionth 'which board is the best?' thread.
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I have bought more than my fair share of used and custom boards over the last few years. I am a mash of finding the best board for me and scoring a great deal. Luckily I live in southern california so If I buy a used board and I am not happy with it I will sell it for a fair price and move on. On used boards I am very frugal, try to hunt the good deals. Hit up ebay at times. But when I buy custom direct boards I never ask for a discount. Being a small business man myself I do no appreciate when what I do gets devalued by people looking for a deal. I will happily pay market pricing for a custom board because I have done my research, read reviews, found or seen boards in the line up, and I want to keep the people I want to buy boards from in business so I can get my next board when needed.
Hindsight being 2020, most if not all of the used boards I have bought off of CL have been duds for me. Too big. Too small. More yellowed than what came across in the pics. Shoddy patch jobs.... etc. But there are gems out there.
I also agree with creek 100%. IF you want to move a used board be realistic and price it under $1k. Most items lose 30-40% just from taking them out once or twice. And I have ridden bullet proof production boards, shoddy customs, bullet proof custom boards and the most dogged door plank production boards. To each their own. IF you like a boards style I wouldnt worry so much about what or where it was made. Just my 2 cents.
And I may be guilty of keeping a couple "skinny jeans boards" around. (im gonna rip on that board when I lose 20 pounds, or if its really clean!!) lol.
But to answer the question. My best bet is either a new stock board, (I feel when I make demands on a board I Tend to ruin it). Or what I really feel works best for me is to have a conversation with the shaper (assuming they are reputable and know their stuff), tell them what I am looking for. LEt them know what style size and dims of boards I am either coming off or love and let them do their magic. But you cannot judge a board on one session. I think it needs at least 4-6 solid sessions with out other boards in between to really judge whether it works for you.
Good luck on your journey! If you are not careful it becomes an obsession. lol
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If you are still progressing pretty quickly, trying to find a used board is best. Creek's suggestion about chatting people up in the line up is a good one. A lot of guys who have been sup surfing a while have more than a few boards at home, and are still considering buying more. They might not be listing them for sale, but if you make an offer they might just listen.
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Really curious how the cost conscious make their decisions. New, used, custom, stock, demo or just based on reviews?
From least to most expensive:
1. Design/Build your own (you'll need a place to get the blank cut and glassed)
2. Used
3. Custom from local shaper
4. Production name brand board
5. Custom name brand board
#1 I've used all of those methods but now only use #1. If done right you can sell your board for almost as much as it cost. There's a learning curve but you'll learn more about what you like in a board once you start designing/building and riding your own boards.
#2 is great if the right board comes along. Only consider boards in your volume target range. A great board with the wrong volume will be the wrong board.
#3 A good option if you can find a good shaper with decent prices.
#4 and 5 are not good options for me as I go through 3 boards a year. Might be OK if you only buy a board every couple of years or have lots of money to spends on SUPs.
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Really curious how the cost conscious make their decisions. New, used, custom, stock, demo or just based on reviews?
From least to most expensive:
1. Design/Build your own (you'll need a place to get the blank cut and glassed)
2. Used
3. Custom from local shaper
4. Production name brand board
5. Custom name brand board
#1 I've used all of those methods but now only use #1. If done right you can sell your board for almost as much as it cost. There's a learning curve but you'll learn more about what you like in a board once you start designing/building and riding your own boards.
#2 is great if the right board comes along. Only consider boards in your volume target range. A great board with the wrong volume will be the wrong board.
#3 A good option if you can find a good shaper with decent prices.
#4 and 5 are not good options for me as I go through 3 boards a year. Might be OK if you only buy a board every couple of years or have lots of money to spends on SUPs.
Just to add to these good points:
You do learn a lot designing your own boards but you'd better learn how to make them your self.
It seems other shapers both name brand and local have hard time following the design guidelines accurately according to the 3D file, so you'd better deliver the blank cleaned up and marked in any parts require special attention otherwise it seems there's just too much room for interpretation.
At least that's my experience owning 7 custom boards from both Local and name brand shapers/builders
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SUP is actually quite cheap in the long run..... how much does your car cost you every year? Or eating out?
Agree with everything you said, and especially the quoted line. Even compared to surfing... Initial cost may be more, but when you snap two boards per year, average...vs. a good SUP probably lasting "a lifetime." The money to fun factor doesn't even come close.
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I agree, with this as my main play activity I have to pay for, a new board every couple of years goes fine.
In the group of buyers that obsess would also be those that trust and dedicate to a few shapers. Chambers, Rawson, Berger, Clark, new production and customs.
Except for one sale and some donations I still have all my boards.
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as an xxl surfer you need construction. @ 220lbs, 250lbs on up....construction is your friend.
regular poly, lightly glassed customs all bad news.
i'd go production. You will never find bombproof like you can with certain mass produced productions. (trust me - i always want to support local...but heres a reason to stray)
if you go custom, you will be very very heavy with most shapers that arent building with advance techniques.
the ONLY brand ive never gotten foot welts in.....which is a primary concern for big guys.....Jimmy Lewis.
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I have different criteria than most of the other people here. I'm not so concerned with performance but durability and price. Since I live in a very rocky area, my boards need to take a beating, and since I'm not racing or doing any serious surfing, the high-end performance isn't important.
I look for a board that can perform reasonably well, take a beating, and carry my stuff. Craigslist can be useful if I know boards that will fit that category. A few years ago I got a well-worn NSP 14' board for $600. (Look up "ghost board" on this forum if you want the funny story.) I knew that model was tough enough so I bought it, and I still need to repair it a couple of times a season. I think if you go used you need to really know what you're buying. Otherwise I stick to the brands I trust, like Bic or NSP.
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if you go custom, you will be very very heavy with most shapers that arent building with advance techniques.
+1. That was my experience with most.
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Custom shapers are getting better technique wise. My 8'3 Rawson is 14 lbs. My Dave Mel custom was maybe a half pound more, but miles more durable than my production Sunova has been. Dave Mel has a long background in custom windsurfers, I would trust the durability of any custom from someone who can build a good custom windsurfer. I have had great luck with the budget starboard constructions, but they weren't always the lightest.
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I was sick of repairing my custom 9' green machine. I beat it up pretty good to. I was hunting for a board that was better suited for my break (typical mush burgers). It is either a longboard or a Simmon's shape. I went through a series of buy and sell 10' ish boards. Then an almost brand new Coreban Icon came up on CL. I knew these were built bullet proof at the Cobra factory and retail for a lot more than I would ever pay. I didn't like it at first because I'm used to a more skatey board. This is more a performer longboard. After a few fin changes I figured it out. It grew on me. I surfed it for the last 3 years. I was on the rocks a ton of times. I've never had to repair it once. Just chipped paint. BUT!!!! I really missed a high performance board that flexes. Now I've got my new L41 that I love. I've surfed it about 8 times and since I bought it, and it's already bubbling from a ding in the rail. Just like old times. Got it draining on my truck rack and will repair it when it stop dripping. The price I pay for the board I love.... for now.
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as an xxl surfer you need construction. @ 220lbs, 250lbs on up....construction is your friend.
regular poly, lightly glassed customs all bad news.
i'd go production. You will never find bombproof like you can with certain mass produced productions. (trust me - i always want to support local...but heres a reason to stray)
if you go custom, you will be very very heavy with most shapers that arent building with advance techniques.
the ONLY brand ive never gotten foot welts in.....which is a primary concern for big guys.....Jimmy Lewis.
Hey NJS, I must have lead feet cause my superfrank has foot wells. I believe you noticed it right away when you demoed the board. Still won’t stop me from getting another one from JL which should be arriving on Tuesday. ;D
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My customs are absolutely bullet-proof, and far more durable than any production board I’ve had. Not significantly heavier either. So I think it just depends on who made your board, and what you asked them to make. Not many people say to the shaper “I’m more interested in it being strong and durable than light”. But I did, so that’s what I got.
Mind you, my next production board is going to be double-carbon full PVC sandwich around a good quality core, plus a wooden stringer, and vacuum-bagged three times. So it will be interesting to see how strong and durable (and heavy) that turns out to be.