Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on August 02, 2019, 05:42:55 AM

Title: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 02, 2019, 05:42:55 AM
Big SUP style foilboards are a necessity to getting started and may always be a big part of the sport.  As beginners, we all start on our knees doing a knee start which is functional and sometimes graceful (as opposed to disgraceful, which happens as well :) ).  This requires a board which will float you enough to crawl up, kneel, get situated, and do your start.  The full waterstart is really appealing in that it skips a lot of that.  I have tried a few windsurfing style waterstarts on the big boards and flying the wing in the water is fine and positioning the board is very doable as well.  The sticking point is that the big board (sitting flat on the surface) sits high above the water so with your feet up it is very awkward and there is not enough leverage to get you up there.  It is likely possible but it will require a lot.  The best answer would be to use the foot straps, set the board on its side (twin tip kiteboard waterstart style) and start like that.  The problem there is that with these wide boards the straps are now way up in the air and the board has a lot of float that works against rolling onto it. That is where greatly reduced boards come in.  That is the goal.  I am thinking that a narrow, sinkable board is going to be critical for this.  Of course foiling skills would be mandatory because sub foiling cruising will not be super fun.

You see waterstarts onto little 30 liter boards in these vids. I am confident that a standard waterstart going to become a normal part of this sport.  I see it as a given.  I remember (dating myself now) picking up a windsurfing magazine and reading about the waterstart.  The article called it an "advanced freestlye maneuver" :)

https://youtu.be/OLQFGTGo0HU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm6nYgyepS8
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 02, 2019, 06:19:20 AM
In kiting, a setup that floats like this is key to easy water starts.

I can’t tell you if this applies to wing surfing because nobody but you, has was one those dam things  >:(

Water starting a foil SUP with a kite, is dam near impossible for all the reasons you’ve already discovered.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlrMdi8HYiq/?igshid=196hqpf8ae69p
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 02, 2019, 08:06:29 AM
That is cool to know, Dwight.  Just looked up kitefoil waterstart videos and found this. It all looks translatable to the wing (2:18). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrfAkMVaE74
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 02, 2019, 08:21:36 AM
Here is another (switchfoot):

https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/348374286073059/
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 02, 2019, 10:39:38 AM
If you’re lucky enough to have a setup that floats like that, then for sure, learn the water start strapless or with foot hooks.

Way too many kiters sprain the ankles learning to water start foils with straps.

The issue is this.....as soon as the foil starts to sink (from the board sideways on the water position) the wind pushes you down wind, the foil wing rolls under your butt and ankle gets tweaked.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Rider on August 02, 2019, 07:35:15 PM
Yesterday we had some nice circuits on the bullets at the hatch....Around 3 PM the wind backed off. We came in. When we were pulling out, we noticed a foiler with a really small handkite just off Kodak Point. The wing was obviously too small for no wind ( I am guessing a 3 meter ) It really looked more like a pool toy. The funny part was the the small tourist van of Chinese who all gathered at the point taking pictures....
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 06, 2019, 04:38:26 AM
Here is another.  Noone is clearly showing the first part of the process.  That may not be pretty yet :).  It would be cool to see it from wipeout to foiling, warts and all.  It looks like they may just be flat sinking their boards and crouching on to them. 

https://www.facebook.com/CabrinhaKites/videos/2482758468624988/
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Julie_Scheyer on August 07, 2019, 05:54:31 AM
https://www.instagram.com/tv/B0iifRPHH73/?igshid=12qu8fjp82b2o
This is an old pre production wing
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Julie_Scheyer on August 07, 2019, 05:57:34 AM
Here’s sky water starting without straps on the board in waves from my iPhone
https://www.instagram.com/p/BweJw_nneJx/?igshid=1l1plvylaahfu
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 07, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
That is looking like a knee start on a full float board.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 08, 2019, 04:37:05 AM
Looking closer at the vids and at this image I am now thinking that these young guys are likely flat sinking these to get started.  That seems doable.  Hmmmm.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64896386_1084693058390825_4268508214397501440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQmbmBvW9jHR1MBlXqf1Kl2yy7_l-76EDmGxqgmIXxKhTfPxT7f7jIS-PnPAtodLwyM&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=4b4dcf5656a1ef48d3069d5084d8ecac&oe=5DE5A694)
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: PonoBill on August 08, 2019, 08:20:00 AM
Yeah, for young guys that weigh less than one of that transmission I need to remember to get out of my truck. I might read this at the shop and be prompted. Yes, my memory is actually that bad.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 08, 2019, 10:18:39 AM
I am thinking we will need to choose the largest size that we can still sink to mid torso.  Kind of like a shortboard volume.  It is pretty easy to go from sitting on a shortboard to a standing/squatting underwater surf stance.  I am warming up to the idea. 
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 09, 2019, 12:10:14 AM
Waterstart would be a game changer!
Knee starting is not easy on my Jimmy Lewis 5'11 in big chop.

If you weigh lets say 85kg( 187lbs) I would think that you need  a board with 40-45 liters ?? or a little bit bigger?

I was looking for a board like that for prone surfing anyway, now I have to find one with footstrap inserts, or install them later...

And would a foil that floats really help?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 09, 2019, 03:33:32 AM
Waterstart would be a game changer!
Knee starting is not easy on my Jimmy Lewis 5'11 in big chop.

If you weigh lets say 85kg( 187lbs) I would think that you need  a board with 40-45 liters ?? or a little bit bigger?

I was looking for a board like that for prone surfing anyway, now I have to find one with footstrap inserts, or install them later...

And would a foil that floats really help?

I am looking for the same thing.  I was guessing 40 to 45 liters would be the max that I could easily sink.  We want to start practicing the "pop up" :).  On shortboard (surfboards) we used to mess around waiting for sets.  From a straddle position you can easily press down on the board between your legs with your palms, pull your knees up and get into underwater surf stance.  Because your body is mostly submerged you stay really buoyant and it is surprisingly stable.  I also had a 5'10 x 21 x 3 fish that I loved for a groveller board but unlike shortboards it was thick and corky.  That board was much more challenging to sink and stay on.  Still possible but it wanted to squirt out on you.  Getting the volume right seems like it would be critical. 

We have GoFoils and I wish they didn't float.  They keep the board on its side much longer than I would want when getting started.  This exposes the water wings and you have to be careful with your (sometimes wild) air wing not to allow the two to meet.  It also slows the whole process. 

I notice that these guys are using minimum length straight wrist leashes (3-4 feet).  A quick tug and the wing is in hand.  That beats reeling.  I am on that. 

Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 09, 2019, 03:56:38 AM
I just ordered a 5'0" x 20" x 2.9" 41 litres prone foilboard.

Planning to install foot straps.

I hope it will be possible to push the board underwater with feet in the straps.

I also don't like the floaty Gofoils, I spent a lot of time pushing it down, my Neil Pryde behaves much better in this respect with its heavy mast.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 09, 2019, 04:15:23 AM
What board did you go with?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 09, 2019, 04:34:38 AM
Axis

https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-5 (https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-5)

No custom builders where I am, custom would take too long anyway...
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 09, 2019, 04:42:43 AM
That looks great.  Let us know how the size works out for sinking.  Are you 187 lbs?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 09, 2019, 05:49:43 AM
Yes I am about 190 lbs
I foresee a lot of problems
dropping wind
switchfoot waterstarting

Lots of nice challenges, better start trying with a boat around....
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 10, 2019, 02:57:22 AM
Her is a Gorge waterstart on an overpowered wing.  It has been really windy here lately.  :).  Unfortunately this one still starts late in the process.  Still looking to see the whole deal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b03QvAoJb9Q
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: PonoBill on August 10, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
I assume that was Wednesday, and it was 40 gusting to 50 in a lot of spots--probably there, which is where I was. That looks like a 4M wing. I almost waterstarted my 4M on Wednesday--involuntarily. I also got nearly lifted off my board raising the wing to "Neutral" overhead. When you have enough wind that ain't neutral.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 16, 2019, 12:54:07 PM
Axis

https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-5 (https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-5)

No custom builders where I am, custom would take too long anyway...

The Axis 5'0 arrived today.
Beautiful 2,5 kg 5.5 lbs ! Now we have to install foot strap inserts. My daughter is regular. me goofy (how can that be?) and I am 6'1 she is is 5'7
We both think a wide stance is no good  so we are going for 25"/23"with the back foot on top of the middle of the foil tracks, what can go wrong?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 16, 2019, 04:18:53 PM
Let's get some pics of that thing!  :)
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 17, 2019, 08:17:31 AM
The board is 41 liters , I am wondering if 62 kg person will be able to sink it to waterstart but we'll see otherwise we will have to get the 4'0 version@ 31 liters
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 17, 2019, 08:29:25 AM
I wonder where we have to put the footstrap inserts, this is a photo of the top of the board , the white tape is where the tracks for the plate are.
The yellow dots are footstrap inserts , distance from the middle of the footstraps is 26"=66cm in this picture , my daughter is 5'8 = 172 cm
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 17, 2019, 02:22:37 PM
What a beauty!
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 17, 2019, 10:58:54 PM
And a picture of the bottom, nice and simple, you can see the bevels. Not as pronounced as on a Jimmy Lewis Flying V but this board is much thinner of course.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 18, 2019, 05:01:40 AM
Are you using Axis Foils?  Whatcha got?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 18, 2019, 06:28:23 AM
Got Axis 82/92/102 and Gofoil IWA/M200/M280
We are going to just use wax until we figure out if and so yes where we should put footstrap inserts.
The board will float on its side with the IWA probably , might be good for waterstarting
And we are going to find out if we can push the board under water..
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 18, 2019, 06:47:12 AM
What mast lengths?  How are you liking those Axis vs GoFoil?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 18, 2019, 07:05:53 AM
Gofoil 29,5 + 2 inch= 31,5 inch = 80 cm

Axis 60 cm=24 inch, 75 cm=30 inch and 90 cm =36 inch

I haven't used the Axis foils yet but being able to use a short mast for shallow sandbanks is very useful..
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 18, 2019, 08:52:11 AM
I really like the complete modularity of the Axis program.  I just ordered a bunch of Red goodies.  :)
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 20, 2019, 02:12:55 AM
Here is another vid of the waterstart.  Helpful, but again editing out the part where they are actually getting on the board.  Wonder why :).  This looks very doable though and flying around on a 4'8 board looks epic. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP5fPQVlSdg
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 20, 2019, 02:56:06 AM
Oooooh!

https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/494810328013650/
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: PonoBill on August 20, 2019, 08:01:58 AM
No hope for that.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on August 21, 2019, 03:51:13 AM
Yesterday my 62 kg daughter managed to get going on her Axis 5'0 41 liter. She can't push the board down enough to stand on it under water but she did a kneeling start in very choppy conditions.
She could only do it  port tack, she is regular.

She thinks she needs a much smaller board to do a proper waterstart...
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 21, 2019, 04:45:26 AM
Kids! :)

Did you sit on it yet?  Have yo put a straight edge on the bottom?  I am wondering how flat it is in the tail and how far forward it stays flat.


I am nowhere near ready to be working on this yet...so that means it is time to start :)
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on August 21, 2019, 07:47:09 AM
PS:  Just searching around I found this product.  It is a pad with various insert options.  This may be a good choice for you and save some headaches.

https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=373&idcategory=202

https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=374&idcategory=202
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on September 29, 2019, 03:38:54 AM
This is a fantastic video for waterstarts.  It shows the process all the way from wipe-out to foiling in nice quality and multiple times.  I do hope that the manufacturers take note of their own riders and add inserts (and plenty of them) to their upcoming wingfoil specific boards. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnmCLCNq0Vs
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: PonoBill on September 29, 2019, 09:19:35 AM
Bastard!! He stands on that sinker like it was a sandbar. Doesn't even pay any attention to it. Totally impossible. Got to be photoshopped or something.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on September 30, 2019, 03:15:17 AM
He barely pumps at 00:58.  Lets the nose surface and goes for it.  SO cool.  That is the Takuma Model X  4'4'' x 18 9/16x3 1/2 : 39L .
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: obxDave on October 03, 2019, 12:35:52 AM
Yesterday my 62 kg daughter managed to get going on her Axis 5'0 41 liter. She can't push the board down enough to stand on it under water but she did a kneeling start in very choppy conditions.
She could only do it  port tack, she is regular.

She thinks she needs a much smaller board to do a proper waterstart...

Hence I would think the reasoning behind F-One’s Rocket Wing boards. These boards are intended for what you might call a “sinking knee start”. They even state a skilled rider would chose a board up to 15 liters less than their body weight in Kg.

I think for a lot of people, a slightly sinking knee start might be a lot more doable (and less energy burning) than a true water start, and still allow for much less mass to drag around once up on the foil. There’s that vid of an 88kg guy knee starting an 80 liter F-One Rocket Wing with no issue at all. No worries about floaty foils or extra water depth to accommodate a full stand-on water start, and a little extra float in case things go south and you have to self rescue. 

One other advantage of just a bit more float than a full stand-on sinker board, is better touch down recovery.  Just enough volume (and nose scoop) to easily pop back up on the foil. For kite foiling we can ride silly tiny sub 100 cm pocket boards but they are also much less tolerant of touch downs. I use a comfy 120 cm kite foil board with lots of nose scoop to pop right back up after touch downs. Yet it still has minimal swing weight to impede on-the-foil maneuverability.   Just my worthless guesstimate at this stage.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on October 03, 2019, 12:55:52 AM
My 60 kg daughter can now can now kneestart her 41 liter board on both tacks, but she needs wind and not to heavy chop to do it.

To make it easier she woud need a slightly bigger board :https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-56 (https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-56)

And to waterstart she would need a smaller board with footstraps about this size : https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-40 (https://axisfoils.com/collections/surf-foil-boards/products/surf-carbon-foilboard-40)

The advantage of surffoil boards is that they are much cheaper than sup foil boards!
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: VB_Foil on October 03, 2019, 08:44:15 AM
When I was out on my 37 ltr prone, surf foiling, yesterday, I tried messing around with kneeling and standing on the board while waiting on sets.  I'm a lightweight at 65 kg / 145 lbs.  It was much easier than I anticipated.  The foil really makes things more manageable than on a standard shortboard.  On my knees, the water line was around my belly button.  I would think that with a wing pulling me up, I could probably make it happen with some practice.   Can't wait to try!
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on October 03, 2019, 03:39:47 PM
When I was out on my 37 ltr prone, surf foiling, yesterday, I tried messing around with kneeling and standing on the board while waiting on sets.  I'm a lightweight at 65 kg / 145 lbs.  It was much easier than I anticipated.  The foil really makes things more manageable than on a standard shortboard.  On my knees, the water line was around my belly button.  I would think that with a wing pulling me up, I could probably make it happen with some practice.   Can't wait to try!

That is cool.  How was it on both feet when submerged?  I remember that being a very controlled position from shortboarding.  The water around your legs and torso lend a lot of stability.  I am hoping to avoid the knee.  I have been practicing getting in a low squat on both feet on my floater, arranging everything from there and standing.  Because I am completely above water that is somewhat awkward and unbalanced but it works and I am hoping that it is good practice :).
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: soepkip on October 12, 2019, 05:48:54 AM
My daughter can now do a flat water knee start on a 5'0 41 liter surfboard.
Open water conditions are very choppy and rough most of the time around here so that is still a big challenge.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PsC8jqdt1ow5VWVJ8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/PsC8jqdt1ow5VWVJ8)

We believe waterstarting is much better but I think she needs a 25-30 liter board to waterstart and perhaps foot straps?  Perhaps a kite foil board?
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on October 13, 2019, 04:32:31 AM
This one is 36 liters with a pretty big dude on it.  Not cranking wind either.  This is where its at.

https://www.facebook.com/foneamerica/videos/3316120108428084/
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: PonoBill on October 13, 2019, 05:16:30 AM
I need to learn to wing without switching my feet. I want to turn like that.
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on October 18, 2019, 04:46:40 PM
Good underwater footage of the waterstart in this one.  A lot of other cool stuff as well.  https://www.facebook.com/SignatureFoils/videos/790465551411422/UzpfSTYwMTA5NTc2ODpWSzo5MTMxNTM3MDIzODQ4MzU/
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: VB_Foil on October 27, 2019, 03:07:09 PM
On the FB wing surf page Eric Terrien explains his water start on 46 liter board as follows:

“ ...no straps. Now that I'm getting used to it I can waterstart in 13-14knots on my best side, but at the beginning I needed 18-20knots.

 My 3 advices :
 1/ be 100/100 good on tacks and jibes  before going on a sinker board, otherwise the first session can be exhausting.

2/ a 45L sinker is much easier than a 30L sinker. Every liter makes a difference. The more liters the easier. It is wrong to think that the more the board sinks the easier it is. This is true for kite foiling, not wing foiling.

3/ to waterstart use the wing to get balanced while getting positioned on the board. I'm not very flexible so what I do I put my front foot in position and back leg is drop knee on the board. To get in position I keep the wing flat on the water next to me so I use it to balance, holding it with the leading edge handle. Once in position the tricky moment is to lift the wing and get it over my head and full powered. This has to be quick and controlled. If there is enough wind I stand at the same time as I power it. If it is low wind I first power it and I stand as I give it good pumps. What I try to avoid is to sink the board too low, because the more it sinks the trickier it gets to get up to the surface. Once standing on the board, if the wing is not powered, the board can sink pretty deep! “

Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on October 27, 2019, 03:29:22 PM
That is great info.  #2 is what I was hoping.  The hard part is going to be figuring out the largest board we can still sink and control underwater with comfort. Stoked to get started on this. 
Title: Re: Waterstarts
Post by: Admin on October 29, 2019, 01:48:01 AM
I asked Eric about his boards and he is using both the 30L that he mentioned for higher winds and a 45 Liter for down to 13-14 knots.  He said he is 80 kg (176 lbs) and he is using the Axis 900 with both of these.  Then he has a 90 L that he is using with both the Axis 900 and 1000 for lighter winds. 

It is nice to hear what is working for riders with specific weights and gear attached.