Standup Zone Forum

General => Random => Topic started by: PonoBill on August 01, 2019, 01:07:15 PM

Title: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 01, 2019, 01:07:15 PM
Here's a weird thought. I think the beef biz is dead but doesn't know it yet. I just had a fakeburger, and it was good. In fact it was better than a standard fast food burger. The fake burger is going to keep getting better. Feedlot beef isn't going to. Besides being an environmental and human health disaster, burger is expensive to make, distribute, store and sell, and it represents more than 60 percent of the beef biz. It's more or less the internal combustion engine vs. Tesla. As long as EV's were funny looking. slow and range-limited they didn't amount to a popcorn fart against an IC car. Then along came Tesla and kicked ass. The future for automakers is either somehow figure out how to make EVs at a profit, or die.

I came back to the shop and started researching. It's going to be a while before these folks are profitable, but it's pretty much game over for big factory beef. They don't know it yet, but I imagine it's going to get very hard to raise money to do anything in the cattle biz. Probably the boutique, grass fed, ethically raised and slaughtered stuff will survive, but the big feedlots are doomed. General consumers don't care that beef cattle that have the blind staggers that might actually be mad cow winds up in their happy meal, but expansion investment dries up when the smart money sees the first scent of disruption. In this care it's the first taste. I tasted it. It was good. They're fucked.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: exiled on August 01, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
Have we had a synthetic food replacement successfully usurp the original?

My bet is that best case it goes the way of margarine. Popular for a time but eventually eclipsed again by the original.

Some of this has to do with our nutritional science being so shoddy. Those unburgers are so damned processed its almost inevitable that they are losing some of the nutritional value we expect them to have. 
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on August 01, 2019, 02:23:24 PM
I haven't tried one yet, but I'm glad to hear the burger was good. I think you're right; we need to reduce meat seriously. If the smart people making fake meat can come up with a cheaper, more environmentally sound meat replacement, everyone wins. (Especially the animals.)
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: FRP on August 01, 2019, 05:23:50 PM
Bill you are correct I believe in your assessment. The beef industry has been under pressure for years and this will be the nail in the coffin. In the spring I was at a conference in Minneapolis, and ordered the veggie burger off the menu in the hotel restaurant. It came, grill bar marks, pink on the inside, and so good I thought they made an error in the order and gave me a beef burger. No worries I thought just a great burger. Had lunch there the next day and ordered another one. Same. I asked the server about it and she laughed and said that her family has replaced beef burgers for their BBQs with this meat substitute. The pink colour on the inside is with beat juice. Crazy good. Beyond meat.,

Bob
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: supthecreek on August 01, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Interesting thought, and probably not far from reasonable, given the power of the tweet.
However:
Everything  “amazing” seems to have a hidden “unintended consequence”
We are designed to eat meat, so I don’t think it will ever go away completely.

I don’t eat beef often, and it I do, it’s usually grass fed.
Plus, I have always enjoyed a good veggie burger as well.

Whole food without all the hormones, additives and bullshit is what I eat.

So much smoke and mirrors in everything there days that you need a good “bullshit” sniffer  ;D

The main thing I do is avoid stress over my choices, cuz that’ll kill you faster than anything else

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Tom on August 01, 2019, 06:23:31 PM
Ok, so a cow eats grass and thru some prosess turns the grass into beef. Some scientist figures out the magic chemistry and does it in his lab. Instant veggie beef. Now they change the ingredients to make it cheaper, tastyer, and more nutritious.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: RideTheGlide on August 01, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
I haven't eaten any mammals in a few years and the quality of the fake ground beef has come a long way. It's on par with ground turkey that has some dark meat in it (the pure white practically fat free ground turkey is not tasty) and turkey patties (again the fatty kind) are definitely on par with beef burgers. Beef eaters grab them by mistake and think they are great. When told they are turkey most seem pretty amenable to considering it over beef. But even if a plant based substitute tastes as good, a lot of meat eater s still have an issue with it. Poultry is cheaper to produce than beef and is more environmentally sound; that's a different potential nail in the coffin.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: puget sound on August 01, 2019, 06:57:29 PM
>exiled: Have we had a synthetic food replacement successfully usurp the original?

HFCS replaced sugar in many products
Artificial sweeteners replaced sugar in the rest
Artificial flavorings have replaced extracts or whole ingredients 
Low- or non-fat milk replaced delicious whole fat milk in many homes

Those might be ingredients more than foods, but the synthetic food industry still has some success stories.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: surfcowboy on August 01, 2019, 07:30:33 PM
Exiled, the difference is the impact on the earth. Those on here that know me know that my handle isn’t a joke. My family are cowboys. Cattle farmers. I know that biz and without gov subsidies it doesn’t exist. How long do those last once beef is a luxury item instead of a staple?

As romantic as all the imagery of a cowboy is, this replacement has to happen. A day will come when it will be viewed as quaint as fossil fuels. And way before we’re off those.

Pono, today I read that Tyson is warming up to get into the mix. So you know it’s real. Burger King just added the Impossible Burger to all locations today.

It’ll get better for sure. But if you haven’t had one, just know that it’s not an old style soy burger. These are replacements down to the texture and color.

Steak is next. And we haven’t even started growing meat in the lab yet really.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: FRP on August 01, 2019, 09:10:43 PM
Yes Surf Cowboy I also worked with ranchers 35 years ago. I remember talking to an old rancher in his eighties who was still at it. He told me that when he started ranching he could sell a cow and buy a car. Now he had to sell 20 cows to buy a car. One of the jokes that I was told by one of my clients was when he was asked “What would you do if you won a million dollars?” His reply “I’d ranch for another ten years”. In Canada our beef industry is alive only through government subsidies. These are proud, salt of the earth men and women who are humbled to have to accept government handouts. Their ranches have often been in the family for generations and many times their kids want nothing to do with it. It is hard work for little reward.

Bob
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: lucabrasi on August 01, 2019, 09:53:52 PM
.........…. I just had a fakeburger, and it was good. In fact it was better than a standard fast food burger. The fake burger is going to keep getting better.....
….In this care it's the first taste. I tasted it. It was good. They're fucked. .

2:30 in the morning before you go to sleep or 8:30 in the morning after you wake up?
Can you do it 3 times in a row?

yummy...
echhhhh.
gas station burrito..........damn if I havent had a good one that's never been quite the same the next time.........
I don't know..........
What would we call it?
Ground Montana Angus or Ground Willamette Muckers?

but the beef industry is probably not a good long term call........

how many acres of green stuff do you need to grow for each cow?

No more cheeseburgers?
Naw....








Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: TallDude on August 01, 2019, 10:36:22 PM
He knew....

https://youtu.be/9IKVj4l5GU4
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: surfinJ on August 01, 2019, 11:19:05 PM
Now that was one of the classic movies of my youth I’ve rewatched with my kids.
Still some shock effect.
We eat a good deal of vegetarian meals at home.  The soy based ones were never very good, and my wife’s various plant based versions were tasty but only burger in form. I recently tried the beyond meat burgers and they were a tasty beef burger replacer.
If I go to the small country butcher here there is a photo of the provider of the meat on display in a field eating grass. I will not buy beef any more from supermarkets. Do not trust it.
But then I have that luxury.

>exiled: Have we had a synthetic food replacement successfully usurp the original?

HFCS replaced sugar in many products
Artificial sweeteners replaced sugar in the rest
Artificial flavorings have replaced extracts or whole ingredients 
Low- or non-fat milk replaced delicious whole fat milk in many homes

Those might be ingredients more than foods, but the synthetic food industry still has some success stories.

In my house I’ve got nothing but the pure originals. Whole milk, butter, raw sugar.
Among the friends that think twice about what they eat I see a tendency to do the same and avoid fake foods and mass production and out of season foods.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Admin on August 02, 2019, 03:59:35 AM
The clincher is that they taste great.  Beyond Meat (only ones we have tried) nailed the look, feel, and even smell of cooking a burger.  It is the burger experience.  I can't see myself eating meat burgers again at home.  You do have to oil them because they stick like crazy.  They also use a heavy dose of salt as a preservative so you are at ~ 500 mg for a (small) burger.  With the normal already salty fixins it is a very salty meal.  If that is something that you watch you may want to factor that in. 

But, yes even if were just burgers that would have a massive impact on that industry.  But, these guys alone https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/ are on to ground beef, Sausage, dogs, etc.  In a pasta sauce as a meatball or sausage, in a chili, a burrito, a lasagna, on a pizza (I'm just having fun now) you would never know the difference.  That is a huge chunk of the meat market. 
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 02, 2019, 04:23:53 AM
https://youtu.be/iSpglxHTJVM
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Bean on August 02, 2019, 06:55:26 AM
Love that quote at the end DW:
"How can you get as strong as an ox if you dont eat any meat? ...Have you ever seen an ox eat meat?"
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 02, 2019, 07:59:42 AM
the fake meats dont excite me because i love the pescatarian, semi-vegan foods i eat

i also avoid sodium carefully, and pretty much all the fake meat products are laden with salt---it's how they get flavor, and cover offensive flavors

regardless, i support moving away from the meat industry---which is pretty toxic on every level---that we subsidize toxicity seems weird, but when big corp $$ control our politics, that's how shit works----hello fossil fuels and the global warming "hoax"--not funny--not that the meat industry aint a huge part of global warming too......

eat as many unprocessed or minimally processed plants as possible---if you eat meats eat smaller portions of high quality product---plenty of protein available in nuts legumes beans hemp etc etc----eating well is so NOT complicated, despite all the hyped up BS diet "science"

avoid refined sugar of any kind, as well refined processed simple carb-containing foods like white bread, pasta, baked goods etc---muffins get you refined sugar, crappy oils, and simple carbs in one efficient gut punch!  of course i succumb now and then

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: RideTheGlide on August 02, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
>exiled: Have we had a synthetic food replacement successfully usurp the original?

HFCS replaced sugar in many products
Artificial sweeteners replaced sugar in the rest
Artificial flavorings have replaced extracts or whole ingredients 
Low- or non-fat milk replaced delicious whole fat milk in many homes

Those might be ingredients more than foods, but the synthetic food industry still has some success stories.
Out of your list, the only one I would say maybe to is artificial flavorings.
The full sugar products that Coke and Pepsi make outsell their diet products.
Low fat and skim milk are still milk; they are not synthetic.
HFCS is real sugar, not a synthetic. Interesting thing about HFCS and cane sugar. Opinion polls say people strongly prefer the taste of cane sugar. Blind taste tests show that people overwhelmingly prefer HFCS.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: gone_foiling on August 02, 2019, 12:08:28 PM

[/quote]
Interesting thing about HFCS and cane sugar. Opinion polls say people strongly prefer the taste of cane sugar. Blind taste tests show that people overwhelmingly prefer HFCS.
[/quote]
HFCS has more fructose which is sweeter than glucose. Imho this is one of the possible explanations why people prefer HFCS in the blond test setting.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 02, 2019, 01:17:22 PM
may i pls take a blond test?
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: burchas on August 02, 2019, 07:45:23 PM
may i pls take a blond test?

Have some patience eastie. This is much more common these days now that folks discovered their Go Bong Foil smoke settings ;D
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: surfcowboy on August 02, 2019, 08:01:24 PM
How many acres of land does it take to grow one? In south Texas with a lot of rain, about 3 acres per cow.

But it’s so wet that you need to give them some supplements to keep them from getting sick. Sooo... there’s that.

In dry country figure you need more land than that.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: pdxmike on August 02, 2019, 11:16:55 PM
This is a bit tangential, but at least around here it seems like there's already a movement away from hamburger-based fast food.  Places opening up serve tacos or burritos, pho, noodles, bento, and (still) pizza.  Chicken and non-meat ingredients seem to really be popular, so yes, the beef substitutes just add more competition to beef.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: lucabrasi on August 03, 2019, 08:54:50 PM
How many acres of land does it take to grow one? In south Texas with a lot of rain, about 3 acres per cow.

But it’s so wet that you need to give them some supplements to keep them from getting sick. Sooo... there’s that.

In dry country figure you need more land than that.
exactly to what I asked...…
but what I meant to ask....
How many acres of green stuff grows a cows worth of burger?
soooo..........
3 acres to feed a cow....(got to know that...) (heard something about that before....."...this many acres...."...)

say a cow gives 500 lbs. beef....
How many acres of land to grow 500 lbs of .....beef alternative?
and then......3 vs 3? 3 vs 1 ? 3 vs 6? (water, erosion, fertilizers, cattle shit.......)?
a bit of math.
What does it mean?
No more chili burgers?
No one will know what a killer chili burger is in twenty years?
Nah.........

I haven't tried any in a few years and couldn't remember what I tried anyways........
no bueno.....I do remember that.
I'll have to try something new or mentioned here.....






Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 03, 2019, 09:44:02 PM
Ranch raised beef is a fairly efficient use of resources. The generally graze on land that can't be used for much else, and it's easy to rotate the cattle to preserve the soil and cover quality. Cattle don't tend to rip out the grass they graze on. That's why cattle ranchers hated sheep herders--sheep are like locusts. Unless you keep them moving they leave nothing behind. Most cattle are finished in feedlots. When they arrive they're carrying about 300 pounds of meat, when they are slaughtered it's 650. They get fed lots of grain, and they can't move much--not much room. They need antibiotics to not die. Not a pretty operation, but not inefficient. It takes about six to eight pounds of feed and 30 gallons of water to make a pound of beef.

That's actually pretty good, other meats are no better. Chicken and pigs are fed grain from birth to slaughter. But vegetable-based alt beef is more or less one pound of vegetables to one pound of "meat". About two gallons of water to grow one pound of the peas or other protein to maturity.

You could google this stuff. I'm writing this off the top of my head and I'm probably wrong about some of it because I read a bunch of stuff after I tasted a burger king sample--but my memory sucks. I don't eat fast food burgers--ever. But I'd eat these.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Califoilia on August 03, 2019, 11:07:10 PM
OK, so you guys got me all excited about this "alt meat" stuff being the end all to beef, so I bought some "Beyond Beef" this morning to throw on the smoker/grill this afternoon...fortunately along with some beer bathed brats "just in case".

Well jeezus h. cripes...maybe the "Impossible Whooper" with all the condiments, cheese, bun, veggies, and whatever other "hamburger" stuff makes it edible, but this "alt meat" is nothing but "alt crap" when taste tested by itself.

Kind of got the idea of what we were headed for when shaping the "burgers", and the "meat" smelled like some terrible dog food, and the texture was more like a lumpy thick paste. Almost threw it out then, and there...but at $10/lb for whatever this stuff is, we were at least trying it (2 of the 4 burgers are still on the plate, and probably headed for the trash).

Since I already knew what it was but wanting as unbiased taste test from the wife, son, and his fiancé...asked them to let me know what they thought of the "new, pre-shaped, and seasoned burgers" I was trying. Wife, and future daughter-in-law both pretty much both said they were "Eh, OK, but not as good as your usual", and the son after just one bite said, "Looks like a burger, but tastes like a veggie burger...what is it?".

So I don't know wth youse guyz are eating, but "Beyond Beef" is not gonna make it back on my grill, and probably not in any other recipe, since I wasn't that impressed with the "nutritional facts"...which doesn't even stack up to 93/7 ground beef, and is really only about the same as 85/15 (the lowest grade I'll use)...unless you've got a cholesterol problem, and then I can see sacrificing flavor for health.

"Beyond Beef" gets a big... blech! :'(   But the beer soaked Johnsonville Brats were delicious!! :D

 
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Admin on August 04, 2019, 05:22:21 AM
We made the Sausage in Arabbiata with summer squash over Ziti last night and it was also fantastic.  Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: RideTheGlide on August 04, 2019, 08:11:38 AM
Ranch raised beef is a fairly efficient use of resources. The generally graze on land that can't be used for much else, and it's easy to rotate the cattle to preserve the soil and cover quality. Cattle don't tend to rip out the grass they graze on. That's why cattle ranchers hated sheep herders--sheep are like locusts. Unless you keep them moving they leave nothing behind. Most cattle are finished in feedlots. When they arrive they're carrying about 300 pounds of meat, when they are slaughtered it's 650. They get fed lots of grain, and they can't move much--not much room. They need antibiotics to not die. Not a pretty operation, but not inefficient. It takes about six to eight pounds of feed and 30 gallons of water to make a pound of beef.

That's actually pretty good, other meats are no better. Chicken and pigs are fed grain from birth to slaughter. But vegetable-based alt beef is more or less one pound of vegetables to one pound of "meat". About two gallons of water to grow one pound of the peas or other protein to maturity.

You could google this stuff. I'm writing this off the top of my head and I'm probably wrong about some of it because I read a bunch of stuff after I tasted a burger king sample--but my memory sucks. I don't eat fast food burgers--ever. But I'd eat these.

There is all sorts of science arguing various ways, but while it is true there is land that isn't good farm land, the math doesn't work for nearly everyone to eat meat. There are tons of graphs and tables out there for the varying resources - land, water, feed, carbon footprint, etc, to produce the same amount of protein. Beef is by far the worst in every category. I am surprised by how much better pork rates. Chicken has about a third the impact or less , depending on which factor you look at.

But returning to the land - why aren't we building houses, warehouses and factories on land that doesn't farm well?
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 04, 2019, 02:15:09 PM
Because no one wants to live there.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Admin on August 27, 2019, 04:56:08 AM
....and Chicken.  Deep fried, I cannot imagine it would't match up to the crap chicken the fast food groups are currently using (and most of the nasty supermarket chicken).  If they get a chunk of the fast food chicken market that is a massive amount of chicken.

https://newatlas.com/environment/kfc-beyond-meat-plant-based-chicken-trial/

(https://assets.newatlas.com/dims4/default/ebde269/2147483647/strip/true/crop/770x514+10+0/resize/1160x774!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.newatlas.com%2Fc5%2F20%2Fb512f4614969a61025c130253be0%2Fkfc-beyond.png)
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Night Wing on August 27, 2019, 06:01:41 AM
I've been following this thread so I just decided to throw my two cents in here with two examples so here goes.

Do any of you who are championing alt meat, own any dogs for cats as pet companions? The last time I checked, dogs and cats are essentially carnivores.

I own a male tiger striped orange tabby feline cat. He loves meat. Real meat and he has a much better sense of smell than I do. If I would put down a nice big bow of cat food in front of him; made from alt meat, on his mat where I feed him in the kitchen, he would take few whiffs of it with his nose, look up at me and then give me that look which says; "what stunt are you trying to pull on me?", then turn around and walk off.

As for me, I'm not in the "alt meat" camp. Even though I'm an omnivore, I tend to think of myself as a top carnivore. This means as a land animal, I'm an apex predator and I'm at the top of the food chain. I like a nice rare piece of prime rib roast, rare ribeye steak, rare hamburger on a kaiser bun with all the trimmings, chicken cooked a variety of ways. Ditto for pork.

I also like saltwater fish so I fished for, caught and ate saltwater stripers, bluefish, red snapper, spanish mackerel, speckled trout (weakfish for those living on the East Coast), redfish (red drum), flounder, tuna, blue crabs. With a throw castnet, I caught and ate shrimp.

When it comes to freshwater fish; I fished for, caught and ate catfish (channel, blue) largemouth black bass, freshwater stripers and crappie (white and black).

Since I grew up with hunting; everything I killed, I ate. I hunted and ate rabbit (cottontail and swamp), squirrel (fox and gray), frogs (legs), rattlesnake, quail, doves, wild turkey, pheasant, deer (whitetail and mule), elk and last but not least, javelina.

My taste buds can tell the difference between real meat and alt meat just like it can with coke and diet coke. I've tasted the new plant based burger which Burger King is now advertising and selling.

In the video below, the woman at the end of the commercial must have taste buds like mine. She utters one word (four letter word) at the end of the video so listen for it. I won't tell you what the word is, but her one word expresses exactly to me what my taste buds are telling me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRz6oQWEo14
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 07:23:09 AM
Was the word "Lies"?

I've been eating the Beyond Burger and Beyond Sausage from the supermarket and I am totally sold on it. I'll never buy the meat version of those products again. I can't wait to try the Impossible Burger. It's supposed to be even better.

We need to put an end to factory farming and stop wasting land for cattle.

"Beyond Burger uses 99% less water, 93% less land, nearly 50% less energy, plus emits 90% fewer greenhouse gas emissions than producing a quarter-pound U.S. beef burger."

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Night Wing on August 27, 2019, 09:46:25 AM
Was the word "Lies"?

We need to put an end to factory farming and stop wasting land for cattle.

"Beyond Burger uses 99% less water, 93% less land, nearly 50% less energy, plus emits 90% fewer greenhouse gas emissions than producing a quarter-pound U.S. beef burger."

Yes, it was the word "lies". When it comes to everyone's taste buds, the old saying comes to my mind which is; "To Each, Their Own. And I do not like the taste of the alt meat burger, made from plants, that Burger King is selling.

And if you want to get rid of factory farming for beef and other animals like chicken and turkey, that may have unintended consequences and one of those consequences will probably affect the pet industry. I have a feeling most cats and dogs will not eat an alt meat diet on a regular basis since dogs and cats are carnivores.

So if that becomes true, that means giving up your pet companions for alt meat. In the long run, would I give up my pet companion cat for alt meat? My answer to that is; "Hell No".

I figure it this way. I'm not a fan of alt meat and won't eat it since my taste buds don't like it. Then with that said, why would I force my cat companion to eat alt meat? And I wouldn't.

BTW, my cat loves processed cat food made from deboned chicken, deboned turkey and last but not least.........wait for it............deboned "beef". My cat does have one oddity though. He doe not like the taste of fish.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 09:58:05 AM
Cats and dogs have to eat actual animal meat for good health. There is no alternative for that yet but I'm sure someday there will be. It has nothing to do with whether or not they will choose to eat it.

I can tell the difference but Beyond Beef is every bit as good as real beef and I feel better for purchasing it. The taste and texture are very close. Red meat is not good for humans. Factory farms are not good for the planet. Pet foods make up only a small fraction of beef sales. If people stopped eating red meat, there will still be plenty of beef around for their pets and it would probably be much higher quality than what they eat now.

I think your aversion to alternative beef is all in your mind. Have you actually tried eating an Impossible Burger or Beyond Beef burger that has been cooked properly?

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: kayadogg on August 27, 2019, 10:44:27 AM
Red meat is not good for humans.

Care to provide your proof or reasoning behind this sentence?
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 10:48:34 AM
Just Google it.

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: kayadogg on August 27, 2019, 11:01:55 AM
Just Google it.

Oh, right. Everything you google is definitely true. Congrats for the most idiotic reply I've ever read.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Quickbeam on August 27, 2019, 11:40:18 AM
I am not a vegetarian, but I do believe there is lots of information to suggest that a plant based diet is more healthy for us. My impression is based on some reading I’ve done and some shows I’ve seen. I’m sure someone will tear this apart and say it’s not real science, but maybe start by taking a look at the documentary “Forks Over Knives”. It’s been a while since I watched it, but I remember at the time I thought it was pretty eye opening.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 11:45:36 AM
Just Google it.

Oh, right. Everything you google is definitely true.


You could say the same sarcastic remark about books, doctors and the education system.

It's takes a bit of intelligent discernment to sift through and find some truth. Without that you are lost.

Google is a very good source of information.

The question is, how bad is red meat for you? Yes, you can eat it and not die right away. There are people who eat a diet of only red meat every day of their lives and many have survived. I think most doctors would say to only eat small amounts once or twice a week. I may eat red meat occasionally but not very often. It's nice to have an alternative when I want to have more.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 27, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
healthy eating is simple

eat as much unprocessed plant-based food product as you like

for protein, do similar: eat mostly high quality plant based proteins (nuts, beans, legumes, hemp, tofu, etc)---and eat minimal, best-quality-possible meat and dairy

eat lots of bottom of the food chain, low-mercury, low-pcb fish

simple carbs and refined sugars are poison---remind self that when making food choices
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 12:02:30 PM
Wheat products are also bad. My doctor told me that the human body was not designed to process wheat or sugar and there is lots of reliable information out there to back that up. It's not easy avoiding wheat but I've cut back considerably. I don't use sugar at all and never eat sugary foods except maybe a yogurt now and then.

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 27, 2019, 12:14:40 PM
dont like wheat?  whatever.... gluten sensitive?  celiacs?

get on quinoa, rice, etc----plenty of great gluten-free whole grains to enjoy

not sure i have a problem with wheat--been eating hearty whole grain breads my whole life, with no problem

i eat cooked bulgur wheat all the time with no problem digesting

i miss great baguettes and italian breads---but white flour is to be avoided---simple carbs/refined sugars are shit
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 12:21:59 PM
No, I have no problems eating and digesting wheat. Studies have shown that long term daily eating of wheat products can have very negative affects on your brain and body over time that show up in old age.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Night Wing on August 27, 2019, 12:49:44 PM
Cats and dogs have to eat actual animal meat for good health. There is no alternative for that yet but I'm sure someday there will be. It has nothing to do with whether or not they will choose to eat it.

I can tell the difference but Beyond Beef is every bit as good as real beef and I feel better for purchasing it. The taste and texture are very close. Red meat is not good for humans. Factory farms are not good for the planet. Pet foods make up only a small fraction of beef sales. If people stopped eating red meat, there will still be plenty of beef around for their pets and it would probably be much higher quality than what they eat now.

I think your aversion to alternative beef is all in your mind. Have you actually tried eating an Impossible Burger or Beyond Beef burger that has been cooked properly?

A lot of cats are finicky eaters. . If a cat won't eat alt meat, then it won't eat it. That is how cats are.

My neighbor next door to me has a spayed female cat. It sleeps in the house at night, but it likes to stay outside during the day. Sometimes I see it outside during the daytime. I've watched it hunting birds, moles, mice and down at the lake where I sup at (100 yards from my home), frogs. If the cat runs across one of the animals listed above, the cat will stalk it and if the cat gets lucky, it will catch and eat it. To this day, I've never seen a cat "stalk a plant to eat" which alt meat is.

Someone may come up with an alt meat for cats and dogs, but ultimately, the final judge will be cats and dogs and not some human pushing an alt meat agenda dogs and cats like they are now for humans.

As for my aversion to alt meat which you think is surely is in my mind; I can assure you it isn't in my mind. My aversion to alt meat is in my taste buds and nothing is going to change this fact.

As for your statement to me of; Have you actually tried eating an Impossible Burger or Beyond Beef burger that has been cooked properly?, define "cooked properly" and be specific because you and everyone else on this Zoner site knows I love details. Just how do you cook your Impossible Burger or Beyond Burger? Do you have to add lots of "stuff" to it make it palatable for you to eat?

What I'm getting at is this. I can put a raw beef patty on the grill, sear it on one side for two minutes, sear it on the other side for two minutes and then take the patty of the grill, put it on a bun and then eat it. With the thickness I choose, this patty is rare and lots of people don't like rare cooked meat, but I do. I can eat a beef patty just like that and my taste buds will like it.

Of course, I do put others things on it which are; sliced raw or cooked onions depending on my mood, Kraft Miracle Whip, dill pickles, lettuce, ketchup, mustard, bacon bits and a squaew slice of swiss cheese. But without all the "trimmings" I've just added, I would bet you my taste buds could tell the difference between a plain undoctured beef patty and one of your Impossible Burger or Beyond Burger patties.

BTW, sorry for the italic fonts. I don't know where they came from. I must have clicked on the wrong button and I now I can't get rid of them.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: SUP Leave on August 27, 2019, 12:59:36 PM
The best way to look at it is if even 20% of the Whopper eaters in the world decide the impossible whopper is their go-to burger that is going to have a major impact on the cattle industry. The Whopper and the Big Mac make up a huge percentage of the daily beef consumption in the world. Consumers have the option, and once this market begins to crack innovation will follow making better tasting and more realistic meats. Hamburger drives the cattle production market, this could actually result in higher quality cattle for the steak/roast market.

I firmly believe that the energy crisis will be solved by the free market. This is yet another example of innovation that moves the 'green' needle in a big way. Far more than any proclamation or study.

As for me, I love red meat (I mean really love it), but I am lucky to live in a rural area. My friends raise beef on their small farms and sell it to me, I hunt and kill a lot of my meals (ungulate and waterfowl), Salmon will run the rivers near my house providing a protein source I can obtain locally. Last Sunday I canned 80 jars of Albacore I caught 25 miles offshore a couple days prior.

Also, cats are gross. We have a couple and I have watched them eat huge stinky rats, snakes and yesterday one of them ate most of a tortilla. I bet a cat could easily be tricked to eat alt meat. A dog like a Labrador eats rocks and actual shit, they would have no problem with alt meat.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Night Wing on August 27, 2019, 01:32:23 PM
Red meat is not good for humans.

At least I got rid of the italic fonts. Now to finish before the italic fonts might make their appearance again.

I love red meat. I really like the taste of cooked rare red meat. I do not care if red meat is bad for humans. I like it! At my age of 69 right now, I'm basically in the Winter of my Life.

Since I'm 69; I would prefer to die with a knife and fork in my hands eating red meat. For me; it would be poetic justice if I died right after a hearty meal of cooked rare prime rib, mashed garlic potatoes with the potatoes topped with Daisy Sour Cream, chives and bacon bits; sliced green beans and King Hawaiian Slider Rolls with the rolls slathered in real butter.

The rare prime rib smothered in heavy brown gravy and along with the meal, a Shock Top Belgian White wheat beer from a bottle, not from an aluminum can. For dessert, some Blue Bell Dutch Chocolate ice cream.

And I can't think of a..............BETTER..............."last meal".  8)



Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 27, 2019, 01:42:40 PM
I had all my "last meals" when I was young. Now I'm all about being healthy in my old age.

There are people who have tried to make vegetarians out of cats and dogs always with dire consequences. All kinds of severely bad things happen to predators when you remove meat from their diet. It's actually a very cruel thing to do.

An alternative meat for cats and dogs would have to be 100% equal to meat, not in taste but in its molecular make up. That technology is still a long way off but I believe someday they will be able to replicate meat in a laboratory.

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 08:45:24 PM
I'm right there with you wing. I started this thread by being surprised at how good a Burger King sample tasted. I fucking hate fast food burgers. Tonight I barbequed some ribeye steaks, with some sauteed mushrooms, bruschetta made with heirloom tomatoes from my garden. A salad with heirloom tomatoes peaches, and parmesan with olive oil and fig balsamic vinegar. I grew the tomatoes and the peaches. I have my own method of barbequing steak that leaves a pink (not red) middle swimming in juices and tender as... well anything. I'd rather eat Elk than beef, rather eat Venison backstrap than elk. I make my own duck leg confit with ducks I shoot--or at least I did.

But yeah, we're headed towards the end of all that. Humans are not good stewards. The stuff we love is going to die, because we're dicks. You know it, I know it.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: surfcowboy on August 27, 2019, 08:59:52 PM
My ancestors probably liked slavery. It worked out for them and they even got their religion twisted up to justify it. Didn’t want to give it up. Extreme example, but we don’t always get to do what we want and we will find a million ways to justify what we want to believe.

I eat meat, my family raised cattle, but when I eat less meat my cholesterol goes down. And I can’t fool myself or google til I find a way to justify it. Ask your doctor. Hell, ask any doctor.

It’s not sustainable to have cheap meat long term. Have a steak? Sure, but they need to cost $25 a pound and not be so common.

My wife likes ‘68 camaros. They don’t make those anymore. But you can still get one, we just don’t commute in them anymore.

As to pets, we have too many of those too but they can eat plant based food too. Most kibble is corn now anyway.

Y’all should try a computer from ‘94. They sucked. They got better. So will this. But if I did shit the way my grandpa did I’d be in jail and we’d all end up dead.

Hell, while I wrote this wing surfers just got twice as good and your new foil is obsolete. lol 😂
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 27, 2019, 09:34:46 PM
Funny. I tore down two laptops today that were sitting in a drawer, both were high end. I ripped all the guts out and tossed them in the recycling. All I wanted was the fresnel lenses and the edge illumination plastic from the screen so I can make some light from them for Fritz, the '78 GMC Moho. Over the last three days I ripped apart two Apple cinema displays and television to get the same bits. I'm making lights that look like daylight through a skylight on a day with high clouds. Probably 15K worth of obsolete shit. But the lights are nice.

Yeah, things need to change. Somehow we need to convince people to take care of the planet like they take care of their kids--or maybe a lot better.

I read a lot of history. We are a lot kinder than our ancestors, but we have a long way to go. The horrific things we see Muslim extremists do the average Christian thought was just fine and fun to watch only a few hundred years ago. I actually doubt that we will survive as a species. I think we're a bit too fucked up. Maybe the cockroaches get to push the reset button.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 03:42:38 AM
"Studies have shown that long term daily eating of wheat products can have very negative affects on your brain and body over time that show up in old age."

??---better link some of these "studies" or ima hafta call BS


Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 28, 2019, 05:05:42 AM
"Studies have shown that long term daily eating of wheat products can have very negative affects on your brain and body over time that show up in old age."

??---better link some of these "studies" or ima hafta call BS

Not much time. Heading off to work, but I did find this PDF.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ba07/b6e9f3cb6e77239d0e81de9aee8173595403.pdf

This is an except from the conclusion.

"Cereal grains obviously can be included in moderate amounts in the diets
of most people without any noticeable, deleterious health effects, and herein
lies their strength. When combined with a variety of both animal- and plantbased foods, they provide a cheap and plentiful caloric source, capable of sustaining and promoting human life. The ecologic, energetic efficiency
wrought by the widespread cultivation and domestication of cereal grains
allowed for the dramatic expansion of worldwide human populations, which
in turn, ultimately led to humanity’s enormous cultural and technological
accomplishments. The downside of cereal grain consumption is their ability
to disrupt health and well being in virtually all people when consumed in
excessive quantity. This information has only been empirically known since
the discovery of vitamins, minerals and certain antinutrients in the early part
of this century"


So, the controversy is how much wheat and grains should be considered excessive. I'm not completely eliminating it from my life, just cutting back on a lot of it and not eating too much at one time. There is a lot more information out there with varying opinions. I think science is beginning to the understand that the amount of wheat that the average American eats may not be healthful. Some doctors believe that a lifetime of daily intake could contribute to many of the physical and neurological problems people face in old age.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 06:17:46 AM
i dont understand the connection between this paper (it's not remotely a "study"--what you posit cant be studied) and your statement:

"Studies have shown that long term daily eating of wheat products can have very negative affects on your brain and body over time that show up in old age."

From the conclusion:

"Cereal grains obviously can be included in moderate amounts in the diets
of most people without any noticeable, deleterious health effects, and herein
lies their strength. When combined with a variety of both animal- and plantbased foods, they provide a cheap and plentiful caloric source, capable of
sustaining and promoting human life."

there is no mention in the paper of scientific evidence of brain/body deterioration in people who consume grains over a lifetime

i cant find anything credible (google) that theorizes that long term regular consumption of whole grains causes brain/body deterioration

now there's a ton on celiac's and gluten sensitivity--but that's about gluten--and celiac's, at least, seems real--but celiac's is a specific disease that affects less than 1% of us population, nearly all of whom are unaware/undiagnosed--so not really germane to this discussion

my anecdote: ive eaten plenty of whole grains and cereals my entire life---they seem only to benefit efficacy of my digestion--while they fill me up and contribute to whatever energy/satisfaction i am deriving from what i eat--only neg for me is that all breads, including the highest quality whole grain, contain much sodium--at least 150mgs per slice---low sodium bread is like mush--without the salt something goes wrong with the yeast etc

when not in bread, whole grains and cereals have zero sodium--nuther big plus, at least for people like me, who buy that sodium is a contributor to high BP
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: lucabrasi on August 28, 2019, 06:34:20 AM
………………….
Kraft Miracle Whip, dill pickles, lettuce, ketchup, mustard, bacon bits and a squaew slice of swiss cheese. ………………..
Miracle Whip?
Oh no....I was all in with you and then...…..Miracle Whip..... ;)

After all these years of domestication I wonder, generally speaking, why dogs don't hunt anymore but with cats it's just still what they do. Something to do with packs maybe? I don't know...…

Fake Fried chicken? That might be worse than a fake burger...

So, the controversy is how much wheat and grains should be considered excessive. I'm not completely eliminating it from my life, just cutting back on a lot of it and not eating too much at one time. There is a lot more information out there with varying opinions. I think science is beginning to the understand that the amount of wheat that the average American eats may not be healthful. Some doctors believe that a lifetime of daily intake could contribute to many of the physical and neurological problems people face in old age.

I am starting to be convinced there is something up with the gluten/wheat deal...…….to a point.
Too many people around me who have cut it out of their diets and feel better/do better.
Heard something somewhere that a surgery can trigger the "sensitivity" to it in some people and seen what appeared to be that timing in at least one person I know.
Also means no more beer.
no, hard cider or seltzer are not the same...…..

I think everyone knows the food we eat now vs. what we ate 100-150 years ago is vastly different and if you eat crap every day it will make you feel like crap and catch up with you as the years go on.
Defining crap and how much crap and what kind of crap is too much is where we are right now I think. Too much of this might be crap for all but just a bit of this crap might be ok for some but not all.

How about dairy? Isn't that something to be considered as something that has changed massively? Yes, lactose intolerant and all that and no good for some, don't have too much, etc but...…..
Pasteurization? Anything to consider there? Does what it do to make our stuff safe take out and take away what is needed to make the stuff what we need?
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Bean on August 28, 2019, 06:50:09 AM
...celiac's is a specific disease that affects less than 1% of us population, nearly all of whom are unaware/undiagnosed--

You have to wonder how they capped the disease under 1 percent while at the same time state that nearly all are unaware or are undiagnosed.

One thing is for certain, as with many diseases there are varying degrees.  In this case, from those who test positive for celiac but show no symptoms, to the fully blown disease.

The key is optimizing the foodsources that work best for your specific body and ruling out the ones that don't.  There is no one size fits all. 


Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 06:56:27 AM
luca---i grew up drinking whole milk out of the carton in the fridge all day--it's what i drank when thirsty--cheese all day, again right outta the fridge

drank prolly 3-4 cups whole milk per day til i quit dairy a couple years ago--wakeup for me was a chest scan which showed my calcium score only slightly better than avg for my age, despite continually stellar cholesterol and other blood work---so i got rid of fatty dairy, but also meat---i am lighter and more fit, but ive been bike-commuting 50 mins ea way too--who knows why we feel good or bad?---so many variables, including that im a psychotic freak, which can make me feel bad, even when ive eaten the "best" foods

ima get another scan in a year or two (lotta radiation)--hope the calcium score goes from avg to stud

gluten sensitivity??  jury's still out for me--unarguable is that gluten-free indu$try is big bux, so there are many with a stake in keeping the concern growing, hysteria or not
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 07:06:46 AM
prevalence of celiacs is a very  "studyable" concept---

easy sampling, and there's no time factor--gimme 100 thousand randoms, adjusted for whatever variables (age, other diseases, etc), test em all for celiacs, interview to ascertain who was aware and/or previously diagnosed

there's a very reliable genetic test for celiac's--it's kinda binary--you have it or not

no such test for gluten sensitivity--at least that ive heard of

cults prey on people who "feel bad"---we all kinda feel bad at times--or at least yearn to feel better--watch your wallet!

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Bean on August 28, 2019, 08:48:16 AM
cults prey on people who "feel bad"---we all kinda feel bad at times--or at least yearn to feel better--watch your wallet!

Yes, ulitmately...the opiod crisis and benzos - "mothers little helper".
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
Most human studies except those that have a black-and-white test are suspect. Too many variable, including the simple fact that the subjects lie. You can do a hell of a lot with statistics, but the presence of so many conflicting studies reveals a lot about how much you apply to your life. And anytime someone says "doctors say" my bullshit meter pegs. The only things that peg it worse are "scientists say" and "nine out of ten lawyers agree".

I have a nagging suspicion that grains in general aren't good for anyone. Mostly because we haven't been able to eat them long enough to accommodate them through evolutionary processes. It looks like humans might have eaten some grains about 20K years ago and started domesticating wheat about 10K years ago. That's pretty much the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms for anything that isn't viciously selective. Long term evolutionary change takes about a million years in most species. Of course some stuff takes a single generation, or perhaps just a few, but that's narrow and localized. For all humans to safely metabolize mechanically ground grain that would otherwise whip through the digestive system with no change would seem to be more like a million years. We'll have a better idea about 1002019. Check back then.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 10:18:33 AM
your point re grains/evolution is exactly that discussed in the piece badger linked---and seems potentially legit

but im blinded by my anti-corporate bias that the problem isnt the grains, it's the processing--by evil corps like cargill

certainly white flour is shit--now is the unprocessed grain??--maybe ill have my head frozen so i can see how things go......
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 28, 2019, 10:41:05 AM
funny---deep in badger's piece is a section about potential grain trigger of opioid receptors....

guys all on the corner nodding out... eatin' p b and j's on whole wheat!
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Bean on August 28, 2019, 12:37:25 PM
Oh great, I'll get my Naltrexone ready ;D
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 28, 2019, 12:58:59 PM
I am certainly no expert on the subject. I read a little here and there and listen to people talk about it.

For instance I recently watched a couple of videos where Laird Hamilton and Henry Rollins said in separate interviews that they no longer eat bread. I listen to what they have to say because they have probably done their homework and may know a few things.

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: lucabrasi on August 28, 2019, 01:12:03 PM
luca---i grew up drinking whole milk out of the carton in the fridge all day--it's what i drank when thirsty--cheese all day, again right outta the fridge

drank prolly 3-4 cups whole milk per day til i quit dairy a couple years ago--wakeup for me was a chest scan which showed my calcium score only slightly better than avg for my age, despite continually stellar cholesterol and other blood work---so i got rid of fatty dairy, but also meat---i am lighter and more fit, but ive been bike-commuting 50 mins ea way too--who knows why we feel good or bad?---so many variables, including that im a psychotic freak, which can make me feel bad, even when ive eaten the "best" foods

ima get another scan in a year or two (lotta radiation)--hope the calcium score goes from avg to stud

gluten sensitivity??  jury's still out for me--unarguable is that gluten-free indu$try is big bux, so there are many with a stake in keeping the concern growing, hysteria or not
yeah, me too...….not the cheese tho but guzzled milk. Sometime around the time I had kids/mid twenties that craving/habit/behavior just disappeared. Not sure why. I guess I was out of puberty by then? (.proudly still immature tho..) Don't drink it much anymore but something about chocolate milk in the morning and camping is still there.
I brought up dairy as I was just thinking how foods have change over last 150 years or so.
Was milk really drank much before refrigeration?
Are Americans really the only ones who guzzle it?
I got no clue.

With gluten what has swayed me is my oldest kid.
My daughter had some surgery and can't remember what triggered it, but she cut out gluten some time during the rehab part. Made her feel better and solved some issues she had for quite a while. Nothing major, just discomfort or things not at their best kind of thing but enough that it was kind of night and day for her.
Ok...……
(it was sometime after this that I heard about the surgery and gluten tolerance link although her "issues" were happening prior for sure)
Next daughter decides to cut it out a few years later. I suspected "trendy cut out" but she says it really helped her.
Ok...…
A few more years later to this year and my boy does some sort of food sensitivity test. It lists gluten. Not a big thing but something to watch. I can't remember the test and really don't know what other things it checked but
He cuts it out.....
More better. He doesn't lead the healthiest of lifestyles but he swears that has really changed some things for him.
I know other people as well and always kind of wondered about it..."aw geez..…" but his is the one that really started to turn me.

I wonder if it's combined with some other crap we fill ourselves with? Is it age related? Under 40 or under 30 crowd more prone for it? I know it runs across all ages but...….
I got 4 kids. 3 have cut out the gluten with good results. The kid who probably lives and eats the healthiest of all 6 of us has no issues and probably eats it daily. Mom and dad haven't got any problems with it either.

Yep, big bucks. Yep, it's trendy...…

Make sure and say hi to Ted if you end up in the same freezer...…..

Extra crispy or original?

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: SUP Leave on August 28, 2019, 01:53:12 PM
I can eat a lot of grains, pasta, etc and feel fine, I just gain weight fast when doing it. So I gave up bread so I can still drink beer. Fair trade.



Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 07:13:29 PM
I am certainly no expert on the subject. I read a little here and there and listen to people talk about it.

For instance I recently watched a couple of videos where Laird Hamilton and Henry Rollins said in separate interviews that they no longer eat bread. I listen to what they have to say because they have probably done their homework and may know a few things.

Laird believes that he gains energy from the ground by being barefoot. I'll listen to Laird talk about anything that has to do with moving across the water all day long, but as soon as he wanders away from that he's just another airhead. Like listening to a movie star that hasn't been told he's full of shit for the last twenty years talk about poverty. Or physics. Or life in anything but a little force/money field bubble. Nope. Just shut up or read a book (Googling your guru doesn't count).

Just had an awesome Wagyu beef hamburger with parmesan cheese, homegrown heirloom tomaders, toasted baguette with the guts cut out, and some sauteed mushrooms with parmesan and white wine. Washed it down with ice-cold Analemma champagne. If you live anywhere near Hood River and you haven't tried Analemma champagne then wow, missing out. we buy a couple of cases every year. They make it the hard way, and it shows. Not cheap, but I'd stack it up against the best of the best, and it wouldn't embarrass anyone.

So Okay, that wasn't exactly Vegan. Finished off with some of Diane's insane homemade peach ice cream with a little Jameson's drizzled over it.  Now we're going to watch Caddyshack because Diane is becoming a goffer, and it's one of the best movies ever made.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Rider on August 28, 2019, 07:34:03 PM
Cedar Planked fresh salmon, lot’s of fresh veggies in the oriental salad. Long paddle on the the river with Good friends. Cheers.....
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 09:17:36 PM
Caddyshack was awesome, as always. I'm all right...  We danced at the end, the dog (zack) didn't like it. I think he identified with the gopher.

the salmon has been just OK this year. Lots of Sockeye from Alaska, but that's been about it. I hope the fall Chinook is a good run. I had a nice Coho a few days ago when my daughter was here. Pretty damned good. I showed her how to fillet and skin without leaving much behind, and what's left, including the head, gets made into stock. I made corn chowder with salmon stock. If you haven't had that you haven't had corn chowder.

My favorite way to do Kings is crispy skin. Scale it, bone it, and cook the skin side until it's 2/3 cooked through. Flip, sear and you're done. Josephson's flake salt, Mango salsa, Lemon Polenta, and a Caprese salad. Done and done. I'm a pretty good cook, I've been working hard at it for 50 years.

These are my filet knives. I don't fuck around when it comes to Salmon or Steelhead. (https://www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IMG_4427.jpg)
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 28, 2019, 09:57:34 PM

Laird believes that he gains energy from the ground by being barefoot. I'll listen to Laird talk about anything that has to do with moving across the water all day long, but as soon as he wanders away from that he's just another airhead. Like listening to a movie star that hasn't been told he's full of shit for the last twenty years talk about poverty. Or physics. Or life in anything but a little force/money field bubble. Nope. Just shut up or read a book (Googling your guru doesn't count).

Just had an awesome Wagyu beef hamburger with parmesan cheese, homegrown heirloom tomaders, toasted baguette with the guts cut out, and some sauteed mushrooms with parmesan and white wine. Washed it down with ice-cold Analemma champagne. If you live anywhere near Hood River and you haven't tried Analemma champagne then wow, missing out. we buy a couple of cases every year. They make it the hard way, and it shows. Not cheap, but I'd stack it up against the best of the best, and it wouldn't embarrass anyone.

So Okay, that wasn't exactly Vegan. Finished off with some of Diane's insane homemade peach ice cream with a little Jameson's drizzled over it.  Now we're going to watch Caddyshack because Diane is becoming a goffer, and it's one of the best movies ever made.

I've never heard Laird say that about being barefoot. I've always preferred being barefoot. Shoes seem to sap my energy. I can't wear heavy shoes like some people. I get the lightest sneakers I can find (sandals in summer) and I'd still rather be barefoot. I take them off whenever possible.

I've never understood why people get so into cooking and eating gourmet food. I've tried it and I don't get anything out of it. I don't enjoy enhanced food any more than just plain food. I use a few condiments when needed but that's it. I usually try to spend less time cooking than the time it takes to eat it. When gourmet people cook, it usually means a long wait. That's just me. I'm not against gourmet food. I just have no desire to eat it or spend my time cooking it.

.

Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: PonoBill on August 28, 2019, 10:41:13 PM
Well that's just sad. It doesn't actually take longer to cook well, it just takes a long time to learn to do it--like anything. I can make an omelet better than anything you probably ever had in just a few minutes. I'm fast--I learned to cook hustling in a short-order restaurant working for an asshole. I can make a great meal from a kitchen with nothing in the pantry in less time than you can make a shitty one with great ingredients. No brag, just fact. Anyone who has eaten at my house will tell you that. Sounds like you eat to fill your stomach. I eat to be amazed. I'd guess you've never had great. You might have had good pretending to be great. It's like someone saying sex isn't all that people say it is when all they've done is jack off.

There's better.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: Badger on August 28, 2019, 11:00:15 PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to put down what you obviously love doing. I know what fine dining is. Yes, it tastes great but it's not an absolute requirement for me that's all. I can take it or leave it. There's nothing sad about it. I get plenty of enjoyment from the food I eat. I had a bowl of Grape Nuts with grapes in it after dinner last night that was over the top enjoyable.

.
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 29, 2019, 07:22:05 AM
rider! we are comrades---we walk the cedar plank hand in hand!

love planked fish--totally unique excellent texture
Title: Re: Alt Meat
Post by: eastbound on August 29, 2019, 07:29:34 AM
laird doesn't believe in using sunscreen

ima stick with my dermatologist on this one

bare feet in nyc wont fly
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