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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jarvissup on July 02, 2019, 11:59:57 AM

Title: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 02, 2019, 11:59:57 AM
     In 2015 I bought a JP 8’6”x29” 113 liter Surf Pro, and I loved it. The board was fast and performed amazingly compared to all the other boards I had ridden. I then bought the 8’2”x28” 103 liter Surf Pro, and it was awesome, but a little too small for choppy, windy, or wetsuit days. At this point I had become affiliated with JP, but they didn’t have a board that was between the 8’6” and the 8’2”, but it was allowed that I ride Imagine as they were distributed by the same company.
    The Imagine 8’4”x 28 ¼ 102 liter Impact was more stable than it’s dimensions would suggest and became my “anything but perfect” wave board. The problem was that in anything else than powerful, juicy waves it was too slow…..just like most of the other boards I had ridden.  A lot of boards seemed to slow for average wave conditions. The JP boards all come with “straight fins”. Straight fins means that the fin boxes in the board have “no cant” and more importantly, “no toe”.  This is why the JP’s are so fast. They have similar shapes and bottom contours to other popular boards, but the fin boxes are set up without “Toe in”. 
      The Experiment
So, I liked the Imagine, but it was too slow in anything but juice. I thought, why not put straight fins in it, and fix the problem. I was worried that I’d ruin the board’s performance, so I decided to put a ProBox fin system in that would allow me the latitude of some R&D.  The Probox system without it’s plastic inserts allowed me to mold fin bases with different degrees of  “Toe” and “cant” and to see what effect it had on the board’s performance.
      The experiment was a quick success, and the Imagine transformed into a fast, high performance board that worked in all kinds of conditions.  I rode that board for two years playing with different fin set up’s until I decided on what seemed to work best for 90+% of wave conditions I encountered from Hatteras to Maine.  “No Toe”, but a couple degrees of Cant.
       When I say 90+% I am referring to waves that are head and a half and smaller. I have had several larger days both on Hatteras and in New England, and on those waves “No Toe” fins were too fast.  I turned an 8’7” Stun Gun, a classically slow and controlled board, into an out of control, bouncing bronco on a double overhead day at the Hatteras point. When it gets big, a bit of “Toe in” helps slow and control the board. I should have known this as I never liked the JP’s in bigger surf, they were too fast, and hard to control.  This all makes a bit of sense when you realize that “straight fins” aren’t a new concept. Fish surfboards, originally designed in the 70’s came with straight fins. They were designed to turn small waves into fun. There are also a couple of companies, one in Australia, the other in Hawaii that make adjustable fin boxes for just this reason. Changing fin set up’s can really change a board’s performance, changing the “toe in” can radically turn a sluggish board into a fast , weak wave ripper. 
          Smart Friends
After doing all of this and starting to think about other ways to accomplish the same result without installing new fin boxes, I mentioned this to a couple of engineers that had been working on fins in their spare time. One of them created the fastest sup race fin ever flow tested, the other, literally, works for NASA.  I told them what I had found with years of experiments, and they looked at me and said; “of course”. “Toe in” is the idea that water does not run straight back, but instead is pushed outward and back as the board displaces water. While this is true, it is not constant, meaning that the amount water that is displaced varies with the weight of the rider, the width of the board, the bottom design of the board, and the speed of the board. 
       Sups are much wider and higher volume than surfboards, so using the same “toe in” formula creates a board with an unnecessary amount of drag.

Fin Box Designs and Experiments

Instead of changing fin boxes in boards to accomplish a “no toe” set up, I started grinding the bases on fins, and remolding them to fit back in boxes, but without the “toe in”. By remolding fins with a “reverse toe” angle I could neutralize the angle of the boxes that were installed in most boards. After measuring the angles of boxes of many boards it seems most have the same angle with a few drastic outliers.   
       I managed to make a few FCS sets of fins, but if not done perfectly, they are weak, and easy to snap. The Futures style base has been the best option for my experiments, and has proven strong enough to remold, and I have been running experimental fins in boards with these boxes for a couple of years.

Production

With each set of fins taking more time, energy and material than any market would support I wondered how hard it would be to have a batch produced.  I asked a couple of small board manufacturers some questions, and found a popular fin manufacturer in Asia. It took some emailing back and forth as I found out that they use the same molds for everyone’s fins and just change colors etc. However, after about six months of casually emailing and only about the amount of money it costs to buy a new sup, I have produced a small batch of fins. 

If you ride a thruster set up and want to make your, Futures based, board go faster, and perform better in average conditions, I, humbly, suggest you give these fins a try, and it’s a lot cheaper than buying board after board, or installing new fin boxes. I had a friend create a small, free website. I, literally, stand to make tens of…tens of dollars on this whole thing. If I sell through these, I’ll make straight rear quads, and maybe some different sizes.  Here’s a link to the humble site:


     
     
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 02, 2019, 12:01:04 PM
http://riptidefins.com/
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: ninja tuna on July 02, 2019, 02:02:06 PM
Nice work.  I have loved the performance out of my boards with the no toe.  Changing the cant has been fun too with the pro boxes. 

Your fin sets come for a tri fin. Basically a twin set to complement a tri fin set.  How would I go about using these with a quad set up.  I was thinking about finding some straight up quad rears. Those should be easier than the front fins.  What are your thoughts on that.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 02, 2019, 02:25:03 PM
Ninja Tuna,
  Yes, I put these out with the idea that folks could use center fins that they already own. For me, I like a slightly smaller center fin in most boards.
   A set of straight Quads will work great, just like the JP Surf Wide worked well as a quad. Unfortunately, I haven't molded and produced the rear quads yet. I have a set of rear quads already to send and have molded, but I'm hoping to pay for future molds with funds that come back in from the current fins.
   Most shapers set the rear quads at the same "toe in" angle as the front fins, but I have seen a couple of boards that had straight quad rear fin boxes. If you happen to have a board with straight rear fin boxes, then your all set.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: PonoBill on July 02, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
My SimSUP, which has always been ridiculously fast, came with a set of Futures Controllers with the fin boxes fairly straight to start with. The front fins were offset nearly enough to make them totally straight. That, plus the flat bottom, are probably why the board is so fast down the line.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: TallDude on July 02, 2019, 07:22:19 PM
My new SimSUP.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: TallDude on July 02, 2019, 07:42:03 PM
Here's an Infinity RNB..
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: OkiWild on July 02, 2019, 08:23:18 PM
The website doesn't say anything about shipping. For me, it has to go by USPS, preferably Priority, to APO zip 96367. Is shipping included in that price?
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: PonoBill on July 02, 2019, 08:33:15 PM
My new SimSUP.

Yup, like that.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: southwesterly on July 02, 2019, 08:41:38 PM
This is the fastest and surfy-est stand up board I ever owned.

The fins are barely toed in.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 03, 2019, 04:16:02 AM
Yes, yes, Simmon's style boards are fast. What the straight fins do is make traditional style boards faster. So, you can take a good top to bottom performance board, and make it fast enough so you won't need a Simmons style board. It's basically JP'ing your futures based board.
     When I was experimenting on different boards, and I've had a lot, I made some traditionally slow board fast and fun in average waist high waves. For example; the 8'7" Stun Gun was actually fast in small surf. Boards like BillFoote's Rocket are amazing, but they become fun "rocket's" in small surf with straight fins. If you have a board with futures bases, and you want to make it faster and more fun, these fins are a fun option.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: TallDude on July 03, 2019, 08:08:49 AM
This is very interesting and may help the speed on my old green machine which has Futures and standard toe-in? If you look at the picture of the Infinity RNB above, it looks like Infinity has their own reduced toe-in Future mount side-bite fins. I wonder who makes them for Infinity?
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 03, 2019, 08:33:41 AM
Tall Dude,
Yes, they'll make your old board faster. I don't think Infinity or anyone else is currently making "no toe" fins. That is likely just an optical illusion, I have a couple of sets of those fins that came with boards, they are standard fins.
    If you want to measure the amount of "toe in" a board has it's simple; using the center box as a guide, take a straight edge and draw a pencil mark straight up the board. Then install side fins, then measure from the front of the fin to the center line, and from the rear of the fin to the center line, the difference is the amount of "toe in" the shaper put in the fin boxes. Usually 1/4".
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: PonoBill on July 03, 2019, 08:38:16 AM
Hmmm. Okay, I'll give those a try on my production Footie. It's my favorite all-around SUP board and a total quiver killer. But it ain't fast.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: TallDude on July 03, 2019, 08:53:11 AM
These look like no-toe. I'll have to swing by their shop and see.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 03, 2019, 09:05:40 AM
Fin toe is just one part of the overall recipe of the board. No toe can work great or it can totally ruin a board. All parts of design need to be considered including rocker, outline. foil, thickness. etc. The riders style must also be considered. Fishes with straight toe are just blindingly fast
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: TallDude on July 03, 2019, 01:17:02 PM
These look like no-toe. I'll have to swing by their shop and see.
I dropped by the Infinity shop and all the fin boxes in the RNB are parallel (no toe-in), so those are just standard fins.   
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: peterp on July 03, 2019, 09:48:39 PM
Fin toe is just one part of the overall recipe of the board. No toe can work great or it can totally ruin a board. All parts of design need to be considered including rocker, outline. foil, thickness. etc. The riders style must also be considered. Fishes with straight toe are just blindingly fast

Agreed, I tested a lot of set-ups with Dean Geraghty's 4WFS (Four way fin system) which allowed you change cant, toe, back & forth + fins. I used it in surfboards, SUPs and kiteboards. On kiteboards you learn the most because of the number of waves you get + plenty of straight lining.

Straight fins will give you speed, cant and toe is there to assist when board is on the rail. Every board is different, what works on one doesn't necessarily work on the next. No toe never worked for me on any board except when I was wanting to go fast - for turning you lose a lot of grip.

The standard fin setting used by most shapers is at best a glorified "best compromise".
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 04:35:22 AM
    There are so many factors that can work together to make a board "good". A good board can be bad if it's not in wave conditions that suit it. I have tried more boards than most, I fear. Most of which, at this point, I have tried with straight fins. I used an example earlier in this thread that highlighted this good board/bad board idea. The stun Gun is a good board in powerful, larger waves, as a stock board. With straight fins it became a fun board in smaller, less powerful waves, but a terrible board with big waves.
   4WFS, and others that have experimented with "No Toe" seem to have found the same thing. Being able to adjust your "Toe in" is a tool to make your board more versatile in average, east coast waves, or weak waves anywhere. Having experimented with this for several years and on many different boards, I am sold on straight fins, and usually only put "toe in" for waves that are large and powerful. Although sometimes I'll run straight fins in large waves that are "sectiony" or just need more speed to beat the lip.
    As for board design and straight fins, remember, JP makes boards of every shape, size and thickness, and they all have straight fins, and they work well. That doesn't mean every board will work as well as the next with straight fins, but the list of boards I have tried is long and varied, and most have worked very well.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 04:42:01 AM
As I described above, I have tried straight fins in a lot of boards from a variety of manufacturers. Here are a few pics of some of those boards on a wave.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 04:47:01 AM
The pics
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 04:53:14 AM
A few more boards:
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: gzasinets on July 04, 2019, 08:57:00 AM
@jarvissup

So what do you think of the JL supertech with no toe in? Thanks, interested.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 09:49:32 AM
The JL Super Tech was good, that's a good board and it worked well with "no toe". Truth be told I had a non-carbon 8'3", and sold it before I started this experiment. Then I bought a Carbon model 8'3" with this in mind. It worked perfectly and was super fast. I has some great sessions on that board last summer in Hatteras.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 04, 2019, 09:56:19 AM
On a similar note, I sold one of the Imagine 8'4" Impact boards. The difference between that board I sold and others Impact's was that I had removed the fin boxes and replaced them with "no toe", so that any fins installed would be straight. I told that to the guy who bought it, and he just said, "Cool". Anyway, he took it and his family to Baja for the winter, and wrote me calling it his "magic board". I don't think he really took to heart what I was telling him about the fin set up when he bought it, he just knew it was the best board he had ridden. Unfortunately, he broke the board, and now it's a bit heavier.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: supsean on July 05, 2019, 05:29:34 AM
Great thread. I have FCS fins but it’s great to learn about the physics of it all. I thought about buying a super tech but decided against it because of its slow wave performance.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: NorthJerzSurfer on July 06, 2019, 04:28:20 PM
The JL Super Tech was good, that's a good board and it worked well with "no toe". Truth be told I had a non-carbon 8'3", and sold it before I started this experiment. Then I bought a Carbon model 8'3" with this in mind. It worked perfectly and was super fast. I has some great sessions on that board last summer in Hatteras.

i usually put my 9'1 ST away for the summer- but going to dig through my fins and see if I can replicate this.  Great thread Jarvis!
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: NorthJerzSurfer on July 06, 2019, 04:30:01 PM
Great thread. I have FCS fins but it’s great to learn about the physics of it all. I thought about buying a super tech but decided against it because of its slow wave performance.

And yes.  the ST is much like the STun Gun.  It needs a real wave (waist at least) for it to have fund as most of the speed generated is during the turns (Especially I have found the first bottom turn) not pointing it down the line.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 06, 2019, 05:55:53 PM
NorthJerz,
 
No need to replicate, though messing with fins is a fun hobby. If you go to this link, you can buy a set for a lot less than it costs to make them at home. Even with the best epoxy, and a good aluminum base mold, the fins I converted were not nearly as strong as the ones created in Asia at the factory.

http://riptidefins.com/
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: mrbig on July 08, 2019, 10:44:28 AM
I had the good fortune to test a proto no cant no toe set of quads in my Infinity 8'5" RNB.

Noticed a HUGE improvement in small mushy winter wave.

Much easier and faster paddling, and way faster.

I liked them so much I declined to return them to the artisan...

So much for testing! LOL!
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: gzasinets on July 08, 2019, 10:51:54 AM
Just ordered a set. Curious to try on my SuperTech where I live it is always mushy and weak. Also I will be in Maui in a month so I will try them in hawaiian waves.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: nalu-sup on July 08, 2019, 12:27:39 PM
Any thoughts on how different bottom shapes might affect toe or no-toe?
For example: a board with a single concave from nose to tail is going to tend to channel the water straight back along the length of the board which would seem to fit with no-toe fins, whereas a board without channels and with a lot of V in the tail is going to tend to release the water more out to the sides back in the fin area which would seem to make sense to have some toe in the fins.
Does that make sense, and does that correlate with any testing results?
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: nalu-sup on July 08, 2019, 12:39:54 PM
They recently got PayPal working on the site, so I just ordered a set. Excited to try them out on some different boards with different bottom shapes. It might be helpful if the site gave more information on the size of the fins. I notice that it says size Large, so I am guessing that they are around 5", but sizing varies a lot from model to model.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 08, 2019, 02:23:47 PM
Nalu,
         The fins are: Base 4.5"
                            Depth 4.75"

    Thanks for order. As for the bottom contours, Vee, Mono Concave, flat, etc, straight fins seem to work well. I'm sure there is some variance of efficiency that would be detectable with testing in a flow tank, but I haven't come up with an opinion. They make every board I've put them in faster. Most of the boards I ride have Vee, and they work well in them.
Ian
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 10, 2019, 06:57:41 AM
Any thoughts on how different bottom shapes might affect toe or no-toe?
For example: a board with a single concave from nose to tail is going to tend to channel the water straight back along the length of the board which would seem to fit with no-toe fins, whereas a board without channels and with a lot of V in the tail is going to tend to release the water more out to the sides back in the fin area which would seem to make sense to have some toe in the fins.
Does that make sense, and does that correlate with any testing results?
It ends up being more about outline and length. Again, the overall design elements of the board will determine how the toe in will affect things.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: ninja tuna on July 10, 2019, 07:52:29 AM
Hey Jarvis,

Got the fins over the weekend and they look great. Just need some waves and time to try them out.  Thanks
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 10, 2019, 09:05:47 AM

Ninja, I hope you enjoy them.
Surf T.W., Well, the good news is that "straight fins" are, no doubt, faster than" toe in" fins on all the boards I've experimented upon.
The other good news is that one of the PHD's I've conferred with is, actually, a NASA engineer and flow expert who is involved with fin development as a hobby. He confirmed that "no toe" fins would, "of course" be faster especially in a sup, and then went on about the variables that included: Speed, foil shape, foil type, width of board, volume of board, bottom design of board etc.
         Mike is a polite, and courteous man, but even so, I could tell he was a man only interested in absolute scientific perfection. In one conversation at a dinner, he and Keith, both engineers, were having a chat about current production fins. They both talked of the inefficiency of currently available fins, and agreed that there seemed to be very little science applied in their design. Mike has developed some very efficient fins, and has tested all manner of shapes, designs and angles with the equipment at his disposal. He asked some questions about the manufacturing process, and what I had found in my little experience, so all we can hope is that he and Keith decide to go ahead and let the rest of us try some of their designs.
         Mike openly spoke about what the most efficient fin design looks like, Keith talked about some of his designs that are similar but with practical modifications. It is exciting stuff, and I hope to be testing some of them in boards soon. For now, the AM template, flat foil is the industry standard, with "no toe" that standard becomes faster on sup's and some surfboards. If guys like this throw in we'll have some very efficient and interesting options in the future.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: J-Bird on July 10, 2019, 01:09:29 PM
Jarvis,

The fins you are selling, and the ones you've tested... are they foiled just on one side and flat on the other?

Was wondering what your thoughts on 2-side foiled fins are.  I recently put one on my quad fin surf board and I could feel the difference in better hold and speed coming off the lip on that one side.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: Beasho on July 10, 2019, 03:00:22 PM
You'll go crazy trying to rationalize the Toe and Cant and foils on fins. 

I know because I tried to figure it out and went crazy.  The majority of surfboard designers have NO idea what they are talking about.  But empirically the Toe and Cant works. 

There is a huge drag penalty from Toe and Foiled fins.  I once put in all 4 quads with the FLAT sides facing the same (Right) side of the my SUP gun.  The faces were 8 to 10 feet.  There was so much lift, since the flats were facing the same side, that the board crabbed when going straight at high speed and I could not turn it on a rail.  The torque rolling the board was too great. 

In a normal configuration when the fins are opposing each-other all these forces are 'balanced' but fighting each-other adding 1) Drag and 2) Stability

William Reidel (STRETCH) had the best summary: 

"Having opposing Toe'd fins with Foils ensures that throughout the majority of angles of attack at slow, and fast, speeds at least ONE fin will hold and NOT spin-out."  This video shows the hold vs. spray coming from opposing fins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3z01EF80RE

Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 10, 2019, 05:07:44 PM
Surfboard design is all about controlling drag and using that drag to accomplish a certain level of performance. No drag and you'd have a board that is unrideable. It all has to balance out somewhere and produce a desired effect
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 10, 2019, 06:06:11 PM
 Ha Ha, Boys, if you read the entire thread, I think you'll see that the ideas/ theories are starting to go in circles. We're all, kind of, saying the same thing now, but in different parts of the thread.

 Yes, drag is necessary.....in powerful waves, but you don't want that drag in less than perfect waves. (see Stun Gun exp)

Yes, shapers (mostly) put fins in at the same "toe in" angle, they don't have flow tanks to test every shape and bottom contours.

And yes, you'll go cray trying to quantify every aspect of what's going on as water flows under a board and around fins. And yes, the engineers I am friends with are crazy already, but the calm, cool kind of crazy that comes with absolute competence. There are too many variables that can change, but I'll bet they're getting closer to that moving target than we've all been before.

 I have gone to fast and been out of control with "no toe" fins, that's why I never liked JP boards in big waves....but only in those waves did I not appreciate their speed and performance, in all other waves, those boards performed beautifully. Two great examples of boards that are perfectly controlled in big waves; JL "Stun Gun", Flight "Step Up". Take either of those and put straight fins in them on a big wave and you'll create an out of control, bucking mess.
     "No toe" fins aren't the answer to every wave, but they have improved the speed and performance of every board I've used them in on less than perfect waves.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: nalu-sup on July 10, 2019, 10:08:16 PM
jarvissupl having ordered a set of your fins, I was wondering if you could more closely define one of your common statements. You have stated that you did not like non-toe fins on big waves, but loved them on smaller waves. Obviously the type of wave would also have a big affect, but could you share a range of what you mean by "big" or "smaller" waves.
To some people, big is head high; to others, big means Mavericks. What is your own reference when you use these terms?
When I start using your new fins, it would be useful to have your thoughts on what size would warrant a change.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: toolate on July 10, 2019, 11:07:49 PM
Great thread. I have FCS fins but it’s great to learn about the physics of it all. I thought about buying a super tech but decided against it because of its slow wave performance.

And yes.  the ST is much like the STun Gun.  It needs a real wave (waist at least) for it to have fund as most of the speed generated is during the turns (Especially I have found the first bottom turn) not pointing it down the line.

My experience differentl.  My 7'10 St performs way better and faster than my SG down the line. Much faster in waves less than overhead. i love the control of the SG in big waves.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 11, 2019, 03:55:13 AM
Nalu,
Good question, and you're right, we all have our own definition of wave size. However, if you don't mind, I'll make a long story longer, and weave my, humble, east coast definition of wave size into a bigger conversation.
     I had been experimenting with "no toe" fins on a couple of boards, but had not set up all of my boards. I was at Frisco Pier on the Outer Banks surfing waves a little over my 6' height, and they were powerful and ripping down the line so fast that you had to drop in, turn on the drop, and fire down the line, or end up eaten and beaten. The wind came up and I needed a wider board, so I went in and grabbed the next larger size board, and the exact same shape, but it had "toe in". On the first wave I went for it just hung there with the "sea brakes" on, and I went a few yards and kicked out before getting thrown into the spin cycle. I went back to the smaller board with "no toe" fins and continued to rip down the line and beat the lip.
     I mention that story because those were good, powerful waves, and "no Toe" fins were the solution to my problem. The power of the wave does not seem to be the limiting factor as much as the size of the wave and potential higher velocities reached. For example, the biggest fails I've had with"no toe" fins were on double over head waves on the Outer Banks, and in Maine. Those are two very different waves, but in both cases the boards got moving too fast for the rails to bite into the wave face. The result is that you end up going so fast that you when you try and weight the rail it pushes back as you bounce, out of control down the wave. This happened on boards that would ordinarily be very competent in larger waves.
     So, above head and a half size waves, whether they are plunging, or slab may be about the limit of "no toe" fins in my experience and opinion.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: supsurf-tw on July 11, 2019, 06:00:49 AM

 Yes, drag is necessary.....in powerful waves, but you don't want that drag in less than perfect waves. (see Stun Gun exp)

  .

 
     "
Outline curve is drag, rocker is drag, etc. A board with minimal drag would be a narrow piece of plywood with no fins and parallel rails from nose to tail.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: OkiWild on July 11, 2019, 06:42:03 AM
You'll go crazy trying to rationalize the Toe and Cant and foils on fins. 

This is me now... Never really cared what fins were in a short board, even after FCS came out, just surfed whatever fin I put in the board and left it there. Not enough difference for me to get excited about it.

With SUP, maybe it's the planing surface area, or larger rail, or because the fins are farther apart, or simply because "body english" is much less effective, so a lot more of how the board responds relies on the fins...or a combo of all of it, but the fins make a huge difference.  I'm now $1,000 deep into a fin quiver...LOL  And I'm not a "fin changer." Just looking for that one magic all-around best set up for each board.

Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 11, 2019, 09:15:34 AM
Okiwild,
              I'm not, usually, a fin changer either. I figure out what a set up makes a board work best, then I usually set it and forget it. My usual performance set up is a three fin set up with Riptide fins in the side boxes, and a slightly smaller center fin. That set up works well for my small wave fish sup all the way through several sizes of performance board. In my performance long boards I prefer a twin fin set up. I have made several "no toe" sets of MR style twin fins that work amazingly well in those long boards.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: Beasho on July 11, 2019, 12:43:04 PM
Here was some classic fin talk in action.

I listened while Jeff Clark explained to Kai Lenny why his fins were working so well for him  ;D

I do NOT argue with Jeff Clark about anything regarding traditional surfing or SUP'ing.  He is still a surfing savant, been bigger, deeper . . . done it all and I am not worthy.

Foiling is a different story because we are learning together, breaking stuff and everyone is still figuring things out.   
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 11, 2019, 03:36:45 PM
     Absolutely no point in arguing about a "science" that applied to different waves, on different boards, by different levels of surfers has a different kinesthetic observance. Though this is science, it's not rocket science. It's very easy to experience the applied science of "no toe" fins. Find a JP board that suits you, or is similar to the board that you're already riding, or if you have a board with futures style bases, stick a set of Riptide Fins in and see what you think.
      It's hard to do the "side by side comparo" with fins because it means coming in and switching fins out before the tide fills in etc., but you can do it. In most cases you'll notice a pretty big advantage in speed, but in my case, I really noticed after switching back to "toe" fins, the board just did everything slower. Boards with "no toe" fins are faster on the wave allowing you to make sections and get enough speed to make maneuvers, but the boards also paddle faster, which makes it easier to catch waves in the first place.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: OkiWild on July 15, 2019, 05:13:14 PM
Okiwild,
              I'm not, usually, a fin changer either. I figure out what a set up makes a board work best, then I usually set it and forget it. My usual performance set up is a three fin set up with Riptide fins in the side boxes, and a slightly smaller center fin. That set up works well for my small wave fish sup all the way through several sizes of performance board. In my performance long boards I prefer a twin fin set up. I have made several "no toe" sets of MR style twin fins that work amazingly well in those long boards.

Very interesting, and I love the R&D. I've always hated quads, but couldn't seem to get the thruster set-up perfect on a SUP, so I tried many different quad combos... Fast, sure, but didn't really turn the way I like. Problem with the thruster (for me) is tail release (slide) is much more pronounced on a SUP with it's wider tail and surface area, especially when there's chop. The Futures GL2's seemed to work the best, but still weren't quite there. Then an old-school buddy in Hawaii sent me some diffusers to test out, and it turned the board magic. Supposed to reduce turbulence off the back of the board...whatever...it worked. So I'm wondering if the straight fins might have a similar effect? Less turbulent flow coming off the back of the board, especially in aerated water with chop. At first, I was resistant to "straight" fins, as 99% have toe, but I'm finding that there are great differences between a standard short board and a SUP.   
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: nalu-sup on July 26, 2019, 03:52:18 PM
I wanted to give a report on my experience with the Riptide no-toe fins. Importantly, this is not a review or judgement on the fins, just my own experience, which may not be worth much. Note that the Riptides are 4.75", and I am comparing to Colin McPhillips 5.16" on an 8'8" 120 liter board.
I did not notice any difference in paddling speed, or in catching waves. Speed when surfing felt the same, though maybe slightly faster when the board was flat in the water with both fins fully buried, like when riding a swell remnant into the beach at the end of a session. When I am surfing, I rarely have both fins buried in the water. The Riptides felt a little looser, but I think that was mainly the size and having less rake. The larger Colin fins had more drive through turns, but again this could just be size and the additional tip rake. After a few days of switching back and forth, I am now mostly using the larger Colin fins, just because of the extra drive through turns. I would say that both are great fins, and worked well for me.
We all know that performance is always mostly the rider, secondly the board, and thirdly the fins. With that in mind, I cannot say which would be better for others. I can say that no-toe fins are far better, faster, and less prone to stall on a wavesailing board, but that is at an entirely different level of speed.
One thing to note: neither one of the Riptide fins would fit into my Futures boxes without 5 to 10 minutes of hand sanding. No big deal, but be sure to have some sandpaper handy when you go to insert the fins.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: OkiWild on July 26, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
One thing to note: neither one of the Riptide fins would fit into my Futures boxes without 5 to 10 minutes of hand sanding. No big deal, but be sure to have some sandpaper handy when you go to insert the fins.

To be honest, I wish all of the fins were like this. What I've found is that 90% of the fins out there are lose in the box until you crank down on the retaining screw. Even then, it allows rock in the fin...and the screw eventually needs tightening. Even $140 fins, I tape until they're snug in the box. They never loosen up after that.

If I didn't have to remove the fins for traveling, after finding one that works, I'd epoxy them into the box...
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on July 27, 2019, 10:33:37 AM
Nalu,
         I think most of my friends(test subjects) noticed the difference in speed after riding "No Toe" fins for an extended period of time, then switching back and feeling like they had lost paddle in, acceleration and top speed. If you're riding really good waves, I don't think "no toe" fins matter as much, it's when you're riding weak waves, mush, or need top speed to run out from under sections that they really shine. I was, kind of, the same way back when I was picked up as a JP rider. It took me a while to figure out why the whole straight fin thing. In fact, I didn't even know they were straight when I first started riding the boards, I just thought they were good. It wasn't until they sent me an Imagine board that I really liked in "juice", but didn't like in lesser waves that I started thinking about it. It all started to make sense when I put straight fins in the Imagine. That Imagine became the most versatile board I owned for years.
         As for the tight fit, that's intended as the manufacturers of Futures style boxes seem to have varying tolerances. I've had some board that the fins slip right in, and some that take a bit of sanding. A tight fit is best for a host of performance, and durability reasons.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: nalu-sup on July 27, 2019, 01:38:59 PM
JARVISSUP, I agree with everything you said. The first couple of waves that I caught with the new fins were slow mushy waves, where all the fins were usually buried in the water, and I right away told my wife that the fins were faster. When the tide went out and the waves got enough juice that I always had one fin or the other out of the water, that is when the larger toed fins felt like it could generate more drive out of the turns.
I also agree about the fit of the fins. I would always rather buy a fin that I can achieve a perfect fit after a little sanding, than get a loose fit that I end up trying to shim.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: Reynolds on July 28, 2019, 01:20:55 PM
I've got four sets of Riptide SUP side bites. All of them dropped right into the future box with no modification necessary to the fin base on my Quattro and Angul boards.
The first time I tried them there was a noticeable difference... I am now able to clear a section that broke in front of me and continue on down the wave. Previously my Angulo felt slow and often if you get caught in the wrong spot you could not clear a section and then you'd end up missing out on riding the rest of the wave. Now with the riptide fins I've got speed to spare and the board really takes off when I want it to and I'm able to clear a section and get back up on the shoulder and continue riding... The fins have increased the fun factor immensely.

Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on August 01, 2019, 01:01:29 PM
Thanks for that post Reynolds, nice photos, glad you're enjoying the fins.  I received a very nice email from Mike McCann, a Zoner from South Carolina, Mike gets it too, thanks Mike!

Mike McCann
   
Tue, Jul 30, 5:02 PM (2 days ago)
   
to me
Ian, Thanks for the great fins, you are definitely onto something!  It’s unbelievable the big fin company’s don’t offer reduced/no toe fins.  I used my Riptide fins for the first time yesterday on my JL SuperTech in small short period swell.   There is a noticeable difference in speed both catching waves and riding down the line.  The speed of these fins has given this board a much wider range of use now.  I previously only used this board in bigger/cleaner conditions but now I feel it works great in smaller conditions as well.  Great work!  Mike
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: SUPladomi on August 02, 2019, 11:21:10 AM
This thread intrigued me as I own a 7'6" JP Slate. I love it in waist to chest high waves since it has great speed and turns well enough for me. I was completely ignorant to the fact that the speed may be due to the straight fins.

I hardly use my old 8'5" Hammer since getting the Surf Slate. However the JP takes more effort and technique to catch knee high surf. I decided to order a set of Riptide fins for the Hammer as an inexpensive way to upgrade it's performance in small waves.

Definitely psyched with the improvement. Paddles faster catching the small stuff and so much quicker down the line. Looks like the Hammer will now be back in the board rotation.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on August 02, 2019, 02:12:11 PM
SUPladomi,
Thanks for the review. Glad the fins livened up your board, enjoy.
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: dietlin on September 10, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
I recently bought a set of Riptide fins to use in my Jimmy Lewis Stun Gun (SG).  This is my ‘good wave’ SUP, which I don’t use very often because living in New England - the conditions seldom warrant using it and when they do, I usually prefer to surf.     

I rode the SG at a point break on fading Dorian swell.  When I’ve ridden this board in the past, I’ve had to make sure to pump it on this particular wave, even when the waves were larger and punchier.  Riding the SG with the Riptide fins as a quad required much less input.  The board was fast, loose and controlled.  Compared to the traditional AM1s I usually use, the Riptide fins appear to have less cant as well as toe-in.   

I didn’t start surfing until after the glass on era, but I understand that shapers used to be responsible for the entire surfboard design – board and fins.  Nowadays shapers have ceded the responsibility for fins to FCS and Futures and the boutique guys.  Those fin makers offer different templates and contours, but they all go in the same place on the board.  The significant thing about Riptide is that they have found a way to offer, what is essentially, a new placement of fins. 

This new placement has really livened up the low end of my SG and I’ll definitely be using it more often instead of letting it collect dust in my basement.   Thanks, Riptide!
Title: Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
Post by: jarvissup on September 11, 2019, 05:48:37 AM
Thanks Dietlin,
   I appreciate the review. What your experiencing is one of the primary reasons I produced the fins in mass. The really help liven up boards that are sluggish in anything but perfect Pacific waves.