Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on July 02, 2019, 02:27:14 AM

Title: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on July 02, 2019, 02:27:14 AM
...or are you just making it look that way?  :)

Here is a good video of a guy during the learning process.  He is already a windsurf foiler and he has nice, light wind.  I think this gives a reasonable look at what a new entry might expect.  The foiling won't go this well right away if you are new to it.  Unfortunately he edited out all of the knee get ups.  That is where a lot of the truly silly stuff happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGhAwaeUkTM&t=196s
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 02, 2019, 03:50:22 AM
For many of us, that challenge looks fun. But wow, I can see a few, who put the wing on Craigs List after day one.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Badger on July 02, 2019, 04:15:14 AM
It must be extremely difficult concentrating on the wing and the foil at the same time. If you focus too much on one, you lose control of the other.   8)
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: ninja tuna on July 02, 2019, 07:12:30 AM
...or are you just making it look that way?  :)

Here is a good video of a guy during the learning process.  He is already a windsurf foiler and he has nice, light wind.  I think this gives a reasonable look at what a new entry might expect.  The foiling won't go this well right away if you are new to it.  Unfortunately he edited out all of the knee get ups.  That is where a lot of the truly silly stuff happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGhAwaeUkTM&t=196s

or could some that windsurf foiling experience work against him.  It seemed like a few of his falls he tried to pull on the wing like he may do in windsurfing for support, where I would think you need to focus a little more on riding the board and let the wing luff out for a second or two.  I may be completely wrong, just wondering if old habits might get in the way a little.  Like when you start riding foils and need to keep your weight more front focused.

More than welcome input from some people with wind surfing experience on this.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on July 02, 2019, 12:34:39 PM
My take on the Naish foil I tried was that it was a lot more like a sail than a wing, but that could easily be my weak shoulders talking.

On the other hand, literally everything I stored in muscle memory from windsurfing, longboarding and sup surfing works against me on a foil and with a wing. So yes, I agree.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: supfoo on July 02, 2019, 05:43:17 PM
I'm sticking with my kite & foil board!
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Rider on July 02, 2019, 07:49:18 PM
Why would you want to stick with something fun and that youíre good at when you can be a total kook at something new and exciting? 8)
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on July 02, 2019, 08:31:41 PM
I'm sticking with my kite & foil board!

Good plan. This entire thing is totally nuts, which is why I like it. All the factories got caught flat-footed so they are pretty much unobtanium anyway. I don't think anyone else should try it until I get my five meter, then OK, go ahead.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Julie_Scheyer on July 03, 2019, 01:52:39 AM
Alan Cadiz owns HST Maui and teaches Duotone wing foil Lessons.   He teaches the wing use on the beach, and starts students using the wing on a 200L windsurf board with daggerboard.  Only after the student can handle the wing to stay upwind and jibe does he get them on a hydrofoil.  His starting hydrofoil setup is a large 130L 7ft Fanatic Sky board with a 2000sqcm hydrofoil, short custom cut down 50cm mast, and 80cm long fuselage.

I learned in a few days with no ordeal.  I donít think itís hard to learn if you learn the wing first, and then add in the hydrofoil.  The biggest challenge is getting the best hydrofoil setup for yourself.  The hydrofoil has so many variables.  Front wing like 2000sqcm+ is crucial to start. Long Fuselage, like 80cm is really helpful and stable.  The Mast length 75cm start & 90cm+ For more advanced.  The back wing too.

There are a lot of little tricks you learn over time.  Managing how to de power and power the wing is really imperative before adding the hydrofoil.   Alan says itís surprising how some of the best athletes, and others donít.   He has the person who is struggling with the wing to hold the boom with the hands close together for a bit to learn the control.  Itís way too long to write how to hydrofoil here. 

Alex Augeraís 4th day (in the gorge too)   
https://www.instagram.com/tv/BzJfKjSD1p5/?igshid=zohajjzd26os
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on July 03, 2019, 02:19:55 AM
or could some that windsurf foiling experience work against him.  It seemed like a few of his falls he tried to pull on the wing like he may do in windsurfing for support, where I would think you need to focus a little more on riding the board and let the wing luff out for a second or two.  I may be completely wrong, just wondering if old habits might get in the way a little.  Like when you start riding foils and need to keep your weight more front focused.

More than welcome input from some people with wind surfing experience on this.

I think his time on the foil is helping him.  The windsurfing is a mixed bag.  Wind knowledge and familiarity is a big plus but man is it hard to fight old habits.  Think of what you do to point downwind when you are windsurfing.    Sheet in, extend your front arm a bit, rotate your shoulders downwind a bit.  Do that on the wing and you are swimming.  Do it 30 times on a wing and you are swimming 30 times.  The guy in the vid is dipping his front wingtip every time.  That is his windsurfing experience fighting him.  He will cure that but fortunately there are a lot of other ways to blow it :).
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: JEG on July 03, 2019, 03:36:19 PM
We need to tell those people that has less water time the truth about the wing and hydro foil. With hydro foil I'm guessing it's like 5 times harder than sup surf and if you have no surfing background you might wanna add extra years on that learning curve. I have no experience with the wing and if you want to combine these two skills together (wing & hydro foil) it takes longer frustrating time than you want it to be. Also hydro foil is soo frkn dangerous!
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on July 03, 2019, 05:11:45 PM
Nah.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: JEG on July 04, 2019, 03:55:16 PM
I like your optimism PonoBill  8)
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on July 04, 2019, 08:43:31 PM
It's pretty simple. there are a LOT of foilers in Hood River, more than I've seen anywhere else.  Kite foilers (with foils that are ten times scarier than any surf foil), Wind foilers (with foils five times scarier than any wing foiler) and downwind SUP foilers (with foils the same as wing foilers. Injuries = 0.

So no, I'd say the injury rate infers they aren't dangerous. Regular kiters, regular windsurfers, and people downwinding don't have a lot of injuries either. So on that basis I'm not going to warn anyone about anything. I know of two people directly (meaning, saw the pictures on-line) and one by rumor (met a guy who knew a guy) who have been injured by foils--they were trying to use razor thin kite foils to surf. Okay, don't do that.

You don't want to fall on them because it hurts. I've done it a few times, I don't like it, but both of my livers are still where they belong, no stitches, no trauma (other than it fucking hurts), no nothing. Dozens of face plants. I'm seriously clumsy, I've had my shins barked getting in and out of the water, but that seems to be the most dangerous thing.

As far as it being hard for people without experience, again my experience is exactly the opposite. People who have never surfed but have done a lot of snowboarding get it very quickly. Like two days--and I hate their guts. Kids and people under thirty get it very quickly. People with 40 years of windsurfing, longboarding and SUP suffer. Your mileage will vary. If you can listen to or read instructions it goes pretty quickly. If you're a stubborn shit like me you will suffer.

In other words, Nah.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on July 05, 2019, 03:17:49 AM
In mild conditions (sub 20 wind and mellow water) I would say it is very safe.  In windier conditions you can beat yourself up but still safe in comparison with similar sports.  I don't think that you will see the early days kiteboarding injuries revisited with Wingsurfing. 

I would set a decent time frame for a wingfoiling learning curve.  A few weeks at least (I went with a month of days).  What sport can you learn immediately that will hold your attention long term?  Is that even a goal?  If you stick with it you will get the basics down.  If it is a day for one person and a month for another, so be it.  We all come to these things with our own shit.  Once you have got it, you've got it.  The basics period in these sports has no bearing on how skilled you will eventually become. 

Chan and I practice gradual delusion.  Just off the water, "that was rough", driving home, "we learned a lot today", at dinner, "we rip". 
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: JEG on July 06, 2019, 03:04:25 PM
I was referring to sup surf foiling and with the wing combined it will even harder.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Julie_Scheyer on July 07, 2019, 09:19:19 AM
I was referring to sup surf foiling and with the wing combined it will even harder.

The wing is way easier than paddling in any conditions as long as there is enough ďwind beneath your wingĒ :)
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on July 24, 2019, 01:46:31 AM
An interesting vid showing some first impressions on getting started.  This time from riders with significant prior foiling experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrZ6f8YFZ8k
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: JEG on July 24, 2019, 04:20:50 PM
yup, the wing thing takes time like hydro foiling and trying to learn both takes even longer time and effort.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on July 25, 2019, 09:11:09 AM
Lots of moving parts. I think the wing by itself is easy to master, the wing plus foil, even though I do a lot of surf foiling, is challenging. But that's what I like about it. I've been sorely tempted to toss windsurfing gear into my truck so I can windfoil on those lighter days when I don't have enough wing. But from my experience in learning to surf foil I realize that adding another element, even one that I already know how to do, will confuse the learning process and make everything more difficult. I had to quit SUP surfing to make progress in surf foiling.

The biggest challenge I'm having right now is what to do once I'm up on a foil. A wing that was generating barely enough power to get me off the water is suddenly much more power than I need, and prone to pushing me to the edge of control. I think I need to relax and get comfortable with the speed, but that's a lot easier to say than to do.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: river on July 25, 2019, 10:29:38 AM
Bill:
EMBRACE the speed and keep the front foot pressure pressing down on the nose, if it gets scary get really close to the water so you don't breach. 
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Julie_Scheyer on July 25, 2019, 11:15:18 AM
Good news Bill, you are mastering it!  It makes sense you have more skills now, and need a smaller hydrofoil..  I started on a 2000 and ride a 1500 now.  On windier days I can ride a smaller 1250, on light days I like the 2000.  Board size is a factor too.

You can control your speed by bearing downwind to reduce speed, and upwind for more speed.  As you get better using a smaller hand wing will still get you flying with the right size hydrofoil in the conditions.

I told Ken I need the 5ft 60L board and 1250 front wing for the Maliko runs with gusts to 40.  I use the 3m then, because I go downwind but would need the 2m if I wasnít. 

On days like 15mph and a 5m wing,  I need a 5ft 100L Board with a 2000 front wing, because I need the extra flotation when I come off the foil and wonít wobble as much.  Since I have less wind power I need a bigger hydrofoil front wing.

Moral of story, itís another gear intensive sport for optimizing performance fun.

Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on July 25, 2019, 03:09:38 PM
This video of Sky makes it look so fun, Iím going to bet I prefer this over kite foiling and windsurf foiling.

https://youtu.be/veBHAljZAM0
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: JEG on July 25, 2019, 03:43:56 PM
that looks like fun and it's gonna be hard to choose between paddle or wing it dw foil. I guess if you have a bad shoulder then wing it otherwise paddle if you want.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on August 24, 2019, 02:37:35 AM
Very cool to watch people getting started.  This guy is doing really well for an early session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdU84r93Y1I
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 24, 2019, 04:13:10 AM
Fascinating.....

I can see why straps would help a beginner place feet in the right spot. That guy is going nowhere like that.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Admin on August 26, 2019, 04:28:52 AM
Hi Dwight,

I think that every windsurfer is going to have this transition.  I remember as a kid that first feeling of leaning back in the harness, pushing the back foot out on the fin and feeling all that wind force translate into board speed.  So satisfying.  Problem is it doesn't work at all for this.  It is a real fight to justify that reality.  Committing to a body position that is almost the opposite is very challenging but it is really cool to feel as it starts to come together.  Rather than lessons I think that windsurfers may start going to unlearning therapy sessions.  Maybe hypnosis.
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 11:34:07 AM
It's odd, I found my balance relatively soon in Foilsurfing, though soon is a relative term. And changing wings between M200, Iwa, and even M280 didn't take any learning to speak of. Probably would if I were a bit better at this, I think sensitivity comes with expertise. I know that's true in car and motorcycle racing as well as surfing. For the longest time I felt no difference from fin to fin. Then suddenly I had fins I hated and fins I loved.

Presently I don't know where my feet should be from wing to wing. Yesterday I was overfoiling like mad on the 280 and could barely keep it in the water long enough to get control. I had some long runs across the river, but I had to slow a lot, and pay close attention to the foil to avoid constant overfoiling crashes. So I switched to my M200 and could barely get it out of the water. Obviously I needed to change my foot position, but I couldn't find one that was comfortable and worked.

For the amount of time I've spent on this I thought I'd be much further along. I'm still struggling, still not able to start off my knees on a starboard tack, still can't foil to starboard without automatically turning downwind and losing control. Still on the edge during a lot of port tacks. I'm waiting to get to the point of feeling calm on the foil like I feel at Ka'a, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I do think the stuff engrained in me from windsurfing for a zillion years is giving me fits, but if that's the case, why is switchfoot so hard? I never had to think about that for windsurfing--switchfoot is what you do. Jibing is first and foremost switching your feet. I don't even remember when I learned to do that it was so long ago.

Oh well, we'll get there. Persistence is my middle name. I actually don't have one, so the options are endless. 
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: Dwight (DW) on August 26, 2019, 03:09:32 PM
Bill, it pisses me off too, that I foil like crap goofy foot, but windsurf fine goofy.  I think windsurfing, all we do is push like hell on the fin. Easy. But foiling, the rear foot is closer to the joy stick of an airplane. I have no coordination with my left foot. Iíd be willing to bet Iíd crash an airplane flying it with my left hand.

Iím spoiled kite foiling. I never have to ride goofy foot. I just ride toe side all day with no fatigue.

But at least I got my 5m Duotone today  ;D
Title: Re: Wingfoiling - Is that hard?
Post by: PonoBill on August 26, 2019, 09:23:42 PM
Damn you. I checked in at Big Winds today, and the only 5M they got went to a guy in front of me on the list--in Dubai. Dubai!! WTF.