Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on June 20, 2019, 03:36:01 PM
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OK, not the end of the beginning, just the end of the waiting :). Its the beginning of the beginning.
First impression photos below. Well boxed, arrived with flat sides and square corners from S. Africa. Thanks Aramex!
Just unboxed, of course so no water time to tell of. The quality is excellent. Carefully sewn and reinforced. It feels like a very well considered construction. The strut handles have a stiff flat plastic inside which maintains their width when you grab them. There is a neoprene like outer and they are comfy and positive in hand. The 45 degree angle handles from leading edge to struts are very nice. more on that later. The strut ends are heavily reinforced for abrasion resistance. Good thing here in the rocky Gorge. The leading edge is also bomber feeling. The canopy has a square weave rip stop material and is nice and light. There is a Spectra leash loop (as well and two additional spectra loops about 1.5 feet off of the center loop). Overall it feels on par with the high end Naish kites that we owned (Pivots). They came with great backpack bags and leashes. Pumping a little 4 meter with a big double action pump is a real treat.
Of course we pulled them out to our slope and flew them a bit. Relatively familiar feel. They fly with a light finger hold on the center handle. It is odd but after nearly 40 years of windsurfing it still took a minute to adjust the mind to the new format. From the handle, my first intuition was to go far back with the other hand on the boom (err, strut). Do that, however and you are stuck. It needs to be a crossover to the strut. That, of course, works great. We mock jibed a few times from strut to strut. That felt really nice.
So far so good. Just add water.
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Some details.
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...and some more.
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Nice painting. One of our favorite paddles. :)
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Thanks for posting the pics, the quality of the SPG wings looks great! I'm curious to hear how the double-strut design performs on the water!
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Thanks for the write up admin. They look great.
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Looking good. Tomorrow, eh? We just need to figure out where there will be some decent wind and a long beach. I went to Rowena this afternoon, blowing 25, gusting to infinity and beyond. I practiced on land for quite a while, working on standing from a kneeling position. With the wing more or less perpendicular with the wind I could get it flying well, give a little pump and it yanks me to my feet. So that was cool, and 3 meters is enough at 25. Went back to the car to rig my foil and board. Got a little too excited and fumble fingered, dropped my mast onto the board like an axe and poked a big ol' hole in the bottom. Beyond pissed. Back to Hood River to repair Fugly. Back at it in the morning. Arrrrgghhh!
So tomorrow.
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JP posted these shots from the wall. Maybe we start there :)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64576997_10161856106105514_1901206937597378560_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQkqDsFTtgLWdHKF2jUaZJAntoeitp8nXI-ITBeuwGTnTNdpOamQaMU22wxfA-kSMtA&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=f703d8147a87b8bcdd7da7bb39394e86&oe=5D83FAD2)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65302535_10161856106145514_8478467391666257920_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQnxiz-QzPP0XWH4NFgCDmmOnqhXdoZ6VrbTNYgfM82P_NKnhzqMR6RnOGaVfiaHEyI&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=335579812f8739c2d349da8c5ab3615e&oe=5D93991F)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64548546_10161856106075514_7270794687647055872_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQk_BKgceEvWPEoLAsfe25LgtpeYhftqRfudK1_sCIoL_lw5nWu_4k89lYqfzkeim9U&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=cead9fb52a22358621445651239fb929&oe=5D85AC1A)
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Well, there's plenty o' wind. And swell. We'll probably end up being blown to Boardman, but it's been a while since I've been there, so why not?
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Your ass kicking awaits, nothing worse than the first time on new discipline!
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Too true. I think we'll all sleep well tonight. I went to my shop after our flopping around in the water session and tried to get some forward progress with the engine rebuild I'm doing. I realized after about ten minutes that I was just staring at the engine, so I gave it up. One of those afternoons where I'd probably make ten mistakes a minute.
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Your ass kicking awaits, nothing worse than the first time on new discipline!
You nailed it. We got flopped around for 3 hours in all of the most ridiculous ways. So fun, though, and a lot of learning went on. It was a very windy day in the Gorge yesterday so we looked for a protected spot with a usable shame-walk. That kept the swell down but the wind was coming in in blasts. I started on the 6'6 Slingshot Outwit board with a GoFoil Maliko underneath and our SPG 3 Meter. Chan and I had planned to 1. Start on a mellow, smooth day. 2. Spend an hour or two in good wind practicing on land. 3. Use a big SUP for our first session or two. 4. Start by cruising on the knees. But, due to over-exuberance, we skipped to 5. For that we were each rewarded with a half hour of extra flailing.
Sanity eventually took hold and we did some knee runs. Then some Bambi looking standing runs. Bill swapped me his foil board which is super forgiving for me (but had a 280 foil underneath). Chan used my board. I think we will rent or buy a larger foilboard for the learning phase. The larger boards made it way easier and allowed us to think about what had to happen with the wing and to set our sights on foiling. The 280 on Bill's board wants to foil me at the slightest forward movement. Ready or not...usually not.
We tried both our SPG wings and Bill's Duotone wing. Both are very cool looking products. But, they could not be more different. I should underline that. There, done. As a beginner, going back and forth was disorienting. They sit in the water differently, they react to a leash pull diferently. They fly differently from the leading edge handle. The handwork to get them into lift position is different. The hand position on the "boom" is different. The single boom vs twin strut (dual boom) is very different. I started on my SPG and when I swapped with Bill for his Duotone (both 3 meters) I basically went back to step one (mmmm, step 5). But, it did become more familiar after a while. I think switching back and forth as a beginner won't be helpful. Later down the line that will likely be no problem at all. One thing is for sure. With your hands in the correct position, both wings will fly themselves and require almost nothing from your arms, even in strong, stupid wind. My body is beat to shit today but my arms are fine.
Anyways, day one is out of the way. I think we have two weeks of complete sucking ahead until the normal sucking kicks in. Here's to day two!
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thx for the travelogue admin--tho im not a foiler (yet? need to retire to have the time), let alone a wing-foiler, im enjoying following the journey
have fun!
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I asked Ivan (SPG) about the extra spectra loops on the leading edge and he replied, "The 2 extra spectra loops are if you want to add harness lines, still developing this idea more but added them for now so you can get some lines and attach to last handle and do some jumping."
I had read online about the fragility of some other wings and had wondered about SPG's thoughts there. "We have used them in gales + some big surf and been smacked around over the falls and all. We just got off the water now using the 3, 4 and 5 wind was between 12-45 knots with a winter storm hitting Cape town. Wild and fun. We have 7m waves tomorrow so will be out with our wings at a unique lagoon that only breaks 2x a year."
Here is the thing that gets me. Some brands are hedging on this new sport. They are somewhat protective of their other sports and are treating this as an easy access alternative. Other brands are all in. They are looking to the high performance future (that in my mind is certain to happen) and are developing products with that in mind.
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I can't believe how tired I was yesterday afternoon. I didn't feel like I did much other than a lot of shame walking, but I tried to read sitting in the back yard and woke up two hours later. Diane wanted me to make Carnitas nachos for dinner with her dad, so I did and then doubled down on the coma.
I definitely need the 4 and 5M wings. The little 3M requires 20-25 mph to even think about getting my ass off the water. I did perfect the technique for staggering to my feet, and managed a few stately jibes that took up a few hundred feet of river, but the few times that i got the foil up only lasted for the length of the gust. MORE POWER. We need more power.
Back at it today.
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Yesterday was day two. I am showing no signs of being a prodigy :). This is going to be a slow progress kind of deal (emphasis on slow). On the upside, nothing seemed quite as unfamiliar as on day one. I was on the 4 Meter SPG which felt great. Chan was on the 3 meter SPG and Bill (who has only a 3 meter Duotone for now) used that (as well as brief stints on the SPG 5 and 4). Bill loaned me his smaller board and with a Maliko 200 that feels like a good early platform. Chan was on my Outwit 6'6. We were all able to make some solid reaches in surf stance, started to correct our foot positioning a bit, and started to (intentionally :) ) work on flying. Bill has foiling experience and he knows the foot positions, the motion and the correct sensation. We don't, and it is a really fun and silly learning process. Lots of wheelies and chuck-offs. What I thought was going to be getting forward enough is clearly not. Leveling off will take some time. Bill is saying things like, "swivel your hip" and we are saying things like, "fuck you".
Great times in the duck pond. On to day 3.
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Admin...are you really trying to learn to foil for the first time with a wingfoil? Seems very counterintuitive...but best of luck to you sir.
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Yes, they really are. Saying things like "we should get you two dragged around behind a boat so you can get comfortable wiith the foil" is met with disdain and verbal abuse, which rapidly degenerates to comments on my neatness and equipment maintenance--or completely unrelated things like that. I learned long ago that unless someone is asking for your advice you shouldn't offer it, but that doesn't mean I don't yield to temptation. It's pointless, and I know it, but I did it. "Don't bend from the waist to weight your front foot, push your hips forward" translates to "swivel your hips". I didn't actually hear the "fuck you" but the wind was blowing and I'm more than a little deaf. But I did understand the look.
I"m going to need a lot more wind to get anywhere with the tiny three meter wing. Borrowing the 4 or 5 meter SPG doesn't really work for me. Not only does it feel radically different from the Duotone, it's also a bit heavier, which means unless it's flying briskly it's tough on my shoulders. I gave up on my dinky hanky after about an hour of popping up slightly on gusts and then sinking back to the surface a second later when the gust dies. I got Admin's 5 meter wing blown up and headed back out, only to find the wind had increased dramatically in the ten minutes I was gone and was now blowing a brisk 25 steady. My three would have been fine, the five was nuts. My three was back in my truck, deflated.
Admin was taking a break, so I swapped wings for the 4M he was using, and the wind promptly dropped leaving me wobbling around without enough wind to lift the wing. Admin had taken the five back up the hill to his truck and Chan was using it as a pillow. I could hike up and back to swap out the four for the five, but I knew exactly what would happen.
Clearly the river gods were fucking with me.
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Hang in there guys! Gusty winds would be very difficult and gorge chop too. I had a mark on my 130L(I weigh 125lb) wide 7ft, Hydrofoil SUP board where to put my front foot. I agree that’s the key for foiling, knowing the front foot placement. An unfamiliar board is hard. They all have their own sweet spot.
I had never SUP foiled either, and learned with a wing, in Kihei, flat 20mph water though. I thought it was great learning that way, because I could stand on the board and sheet in the wing and pop up and down on the foil.
Bill, the 3m is definitely not ideal. If it’s windy enough for you to use, like 28mph, then it’s wild conditions. One thing I like about a boom is I can adjust the wing power. If I need more power I shorten it 1 or 2 clicks. If I need less I can lengthen it.
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So I have spent the last 30+ years learning to windsurf. Been there done that....why not just start foiling with something you already know how to do? Sounds so simple.....
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Day 3 was fairly brutal for me. The wind was pretty strong at our spot (chart below) with some big gusts coming through. Our 5 meter wing had inadvertently been packed in the 4 bag and I didn't catch that when we were rigging, so I used the 5 for my 2.5 hour session. Chan and Bill were on the 3's. I thought I was on the 4. I was very overpowered but didn't know why until after my session.
The 5 flies very well, but it requires extra measures. It carries a lot more water when it's down so its harder to clear and it comes clear with a lot more energy. That requires much less wiggle room in terms of angles and technique and you have to go faster because it rattles you around a lot more in those sensitive seconds where you are standing, getting hit on the rail with chop, and managing a yet untamed wing (at least overpowered). The wings add a lot of stability and lift once they are in both hands and in wing position but until then they can pull at you. This is usually minor but is a big deal when you are overpowered. You also have to be more careful with the longer wingtips and extra wing width. When you are not foiling, these will catch the water at the same angles where the smaller wings will not. Lastly, a 5 Meter wing in a 30+ gust can send you. If it powers up in the water and flies and has a leash length of play you will find yourself launched wrist first. You are not going to want to do that too many times.
On the upside, I feel like I learned a ton yesterday about the wing and what needs to happen. A low margin for error makes a good teacher. Toward the end of my session I had a few really fun runs where it all lined up. I had a foil that was low but level and long enough to begin to accelerate. I wasn't ready for that so I let up on the wing, rounded up, nose dipped and stabbed. Kicking myself for not sticking with that one. I also think I have a better (desired) foot position for Bill's smaller board. It is wide and I am finding that my front foot heel needs to be out towards the rail. Otherwise that edge gets too much wind underneath it. More windurfing foot position than surf in terms of the centerline.
We are supposed to be getting some mellower wind now and I am really looking forward to some 15 to 20. :)
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When we learned to windsurf foil, we always went early in the morning. You should be doing the same, per that wind chart. Gusty afternoon wind is your enemy on foil when you’re a newbie.
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When we learned to windsurf foil, we always went early in the morning. You should be doing the same, per that wind chart. Gusty afternoon wind is your enemy on foil when you’re a newbie.
Dawn Patrol for Chantalle is leaving at 10:30. She will tell you that anything before that is uncivilized (we are still seeing morning lows of 50 degrees so, it turns out that 73 degrees around 11:00 is civilized) :).
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So I have spent the last 30+ years learning to windsurf. Been there done that....why not just start foiling with something you already know how to do? Sounds so simple.....
The process has to be fun for you. This way is really challenging and fun for us. I am wide open to people choosing another way. The get gear, try method won't be for everyone but it is really fun and it seems doable.
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When we learned to windsurf foil, we always went early in the morning. You should be doing the same, per that wind chart. Gusty afternoon wind is your enemy on foil when you’re a newbie.
Interesting threads, nice picts. Hey I’m a longtime kiter,and kite foiler sup foiler as well and was wondering your take on the SP dual strut canopy material and build quality compared to the Naish and duotone wings are they on par with them as to my knowledge the SP wings do not have much background in kite manufacturing could be wrong not sure?Curious how there canopy and general build quality stacks up? In the pictures seems like canopy seems pretty lightweight material say compared to Naish geo tech material but hard to say in the picts?I personally am waiting on the list for a Naish wing but they seem nowhere to seen locally yet, have they arrived yet in the gorge as that’s were they distribute from.chomping at the bit to try one out! Some friendly advice is try to find the smoothest windy area to learn as those pictures at the gorge there without pretty solid foil time whether kite or supfoil are pretty frigging challenging to learn in,beat down 101! Don’t know if you smoother water or have a spot like that around the gorge never kites there yet after all these years certainly have to get up there one of these days.On the upside when you do get it wired it will be fun as heck there but for learning tough one! Also if it’s nuking and a lot of current you might want try the maliko 200, or even the Iwa depending on your weight,hopefully you guys can find a little more sheltered nook in the river there as you will definitely have some better results, keep plugging away it’s all about more water time to crack it, good luck guys👍
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What a difference a day can make! Yesterday was beginner foiler perfection. Lighter winds served up our first real opportunity to come out of our short reach, first days spot and use the whole river width. We drove out east to Roosevelt, one of our favorite Gorge spots. The river is a mile wide there, so you can make long reaches and it is a beautiful desert landscape. The whole Gorge was windy, and after the major nuke fest of this last week, we had the place to ourselves (just us and two kiters). 17-20 mph winds and very steady with a very welcomed organized chop. This was buttery summer wind not the pissed off, jackhammer gusts of the past days. This was the day we were (ehm, should have been) waiting for.
I used my 5 meter SPG and Maliko 200 and Chan used her 3 and the Iwa again. The 5 is so well behaved in this wind range. Who would have thought that using the right gear in the right condition was a thing? We figured it was unlikely that we would be getting back to our launch so we planned on a short downwider with a hike back. That was fantastic because we got to focus on controlled cruising, wing angles, points of sail, foot position and, of course, foiling attempts. You can make a lot of foiling attempts on a mile long run :). We took a bunch of runs, stayed out for 2.5 hours. We beat ourselves up pretty well, did some hysterical acrobatics and missed our planned out point. We hiked back about a mile and a half for the car. Brilliant day.
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Interesting threads, nice picts. Hey I’m a longtime kiter,and kite foiler sup foiler as well and was wondering your take on the SP dual strut canopy material and build quality compared to the Naish and duotone wings are they on par with them as to my knowledge the SP wings do not have much background in kite manufacturing could be wrong not sure?Curious how there canopy and general build quality stacks up? In the pictures seems like canopy seems pretty lightweight material say compared to Naish geo tech material but hard to say in the picts?I personally am waiting on the list for a Naish wing but they seem nowhere to seen locally yet, have they arrived yet in the gorge as that’s were they distribute from.chomping at the bit to try one out! Some friendly advice is try to find the smoothest windy area to learn as those pictures at the gorge there without pretty solid foil time whether kite or supfoil are pretty frigging challenging to learn in,beat down 101! Don’t know if you smoother water or have a spot like that around the gorge never kites there yet after all these years certainly have to get up there one of these days.On the upside when you do get it wired it will be fun as heck there but for learning tough one! Also if it’s nuking and a lot of current you might want try the maliko 200, or even the Iwa depending on your weight,hopefully you guys can find a little more sheltered nook in the river there as you will definitely have some better results, keep plugging away it’s all about more water time to crack it, good luck guys👍
The build and material quality of the SPG Wings are excellent. I haven't seen one of the Naish wings in person yet. We bought a 3 Meter Duotone yesterday (I have been on the list) so we will have two 3's for those big days when they happen. We need two full quivers and I will do that when the larger sizes are available. The build quality of these two brands is what you would expect from a high end product. Same looks true of the Slingshot wing. There is one of those sitting at Windance and it also looks an feels very well made. That said, you will definitely be able to impale any of them on an exposed foil when they are flagging wildly at the end of a leash in a 30+ gust. That is what kite repair guys are for. :)
I do think that Naish missed the (first) boat on size options. 4 may be the money size for some men but there are certainly days where smaller or larger will be optimal...and riders come in all sizes. I am sure that they will correct this in short order.
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Admin,
Don’t be afraid to try the smaller foils. IWA for you, Kai for Chan.
For a frame of reference, in 15-20 with a kite or sail providing power, the wings IWA and Kai are still big.
The 200 and IWA combo makes sense when you have no wind power, so like when you use your SPG wings to foil downwind, with most power gone, just surfing it. It could be terrifying on a beach reach with those big wings.
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Admin,
Don’t be afraid to try the smaller foils. IWA for you, Kai for Chan.
For a frame of reference, in 15-20 with a kite or sail providing power, the wings IWA and Kai are still big.
The 200 and IWA combo makes sense when you have no wind power, so like when you use your SPG wings to foil downwind, with most power gone, just surfing it. It could be terrifying on a beach reach with those big wings.
Ooooh. I am going to try that today if conditions allow. It feels like we are getting a lot of lift but I have no reference. :)
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Admin,
Don’t be afraid to try the smaller foils. IWA for you, Kai for Chan.
For a frame of reference, in 15-20 with a kite or sail providing power, the wings IWA and Kai are still big.
The 200 and IWA combo makes sense when you have no wind power, so like when you use your SPG wings to foil downwind, with most power gone, just surfing it. It could be terrifying on a beach reach with those big wings.
I don’t recommend using a smaller front wing for admin or Bill to learn on. I think they will be very frustrated, and the wings are not the same power as a kite or windsurfing. They need as much help as possible to get flying and it’s stable and slow. They don’t need speed right now.
I use my 2000sqcm wing in all conditions, and I weigh 125lbs. Out and back, learning to jibe, downwinging, and it’s great and very helpful for me to get flying. Now that I have been doing this for a few months, I use a 1500sqcm and take a bigger handwing only if I want to go faster. I am also an engineer too.
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Aloha,
So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m. Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong. So after watching videos and video of myself - day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite. Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved. Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing). For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.
My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.
Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?
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I'm sure there's an efficiency aspect here. I remember when I first started waterstarting a zillion years ago that I wanted the biggest sail I could manage. But as my technique improved the sails I wanted got smaller, until starting was the last thing I was concerned about--my aim was matching the sail to surface conditions and board size. I expect this will be similar.
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Aloha,
So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m. Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong. So after watching videos and video of myself - day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite. Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved. Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing). For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.
My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.
Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?
Hi Clay,
You need to make a trip to the Gorge so we can flail together. :)
I am an ultra beginner foiler, so everything I say should be taken with that in mind. It may all be wrong :). I am 165 lbs. When using the 4 meter, Bill's 280 wanted to rise with any forward motion. I didn't feel like I could learn like that. It was too unruly. I switched down to the 200 and it was more what I expected but it still lifted at surprisingly low speed. On our one nice lighter wind day on the 5 meter and the 200 I found that if I would get moving on a reach just off the wind, position my back foot just in front of Bill's mast marker (I am borrowing his smaller board, thanks Bill!) and my front foot at his front foot reference then a little back foot weighting would lift me. This is all at very low speed. If I bear off a little more I pick up speed and if I weight the back foot from there things happen too quickly for my current skills. That position has me landing on the foil when I wipe out. That hurts. On that day the 5 felt really nice and very comfortable to manage in all wing positions. That allowed me to focus more on flying the foil. So, I am focused on reaching in a comfortable position so that I can fly and so that when I tap down I am not always wiping out. I feel like that will get me the practice I need to make the first few steps of foiling feel more comfortable. I think that later, if I become more comfortable heading a little more off the wind, I could foil on a smaller kit (air foil or water foil or both). I essentially have none of the efficiency that Bill is probably talking about here. I am sure there are nuances of Wing and Board position, not to mention rider motion, that will allow this to happen on smaller gear.
I had pictured a lot of back foot pressure on or behind the mast to get foiling. So far, it is more like a very minor weighting of my back foot with it just in front of the mast. That seems like a lot of lift from what I have read and that made me think that Dwight's suggestion of a smaller (water) wing may make things a little easier.
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It's sounds silly to say, but the way you get up on a foil isn't weighting your back foot, it's unweighting the front one. You keep your body forward, hips pushed forward over your front foot, back foot on the mast. Then you lift your front foot and put it back down. If you weight your back foot you'll never get your weight forward soon enough to catch the foil as it comes up, especially since the tilt as it comes up will toss you back.
Watch the Sam Pae videos. They are about surfing, but pitch control is the same in both cases.
Ten minutes behind a jet ski and you'll get this. I admit that not how I got started, but in the surf I only had to think about controlling the board. There's a lot of moving parts with the wing.
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Aloha,
So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m. Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong. So after watching videos and video of myself - day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite. Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved. Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing). For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.
My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.
Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?
Hi Clay,
You need to make a trip to the Gorge so we can flail together. :)
I am an ultra beginner foiler, so everything I say should be taken with that in mind. It may all be wrong :). I am 165 lbs. When using the 4 meter, Bill's 280 wanted to rise with any forward motion. I didn't feel like I could learn like that. It was too unruly. I switched down to the 200 and it was more what I expected but it still lifted at surprisingly low speed. On our one nice lighter wind day on the 5 meter and the 200 I found that if I would get moving on a reach just off the wind, position my back foot just in front of Bill's mast marker (I am borrowing his smaller board, thanks Bill!) and my front foot at his front foot reference then a little back foot weighting would lift me. This is all at very low speed. If I bear off a little more I pick up speed and if I weight the back foot from there things happen too quickly for my current skills. That position has me landing on the foil when I wipe out. That hurts. On that day the 5 felt really nice and very comfortable to manage in all wing positions. That allowed me to focus more on flying the foil. So, I am focused on reaching in a comfortable position so that I can fly and so that when I tap down I am not always wiping out. I feel like that will get me the practice I need to make the first few steps of foiling feel more comfortable. I think that later, if I become more comfortable heading a little more off the wind, I could foil on a smaller kit (air foil or water foil or both). I essentially have none of the efficiency that Bill is probably talking about here. I am sure there are nuances of Wing and Board position, not to mention rider motion, that will allow this to happen on smaller gear.
I had pictured a lot of back foot pressure on or behind the mast to get foiling. So far, it is more like a very minor weighting of my back foot with it just in front of the mast. That seems like a lot of lift from what I have read and that made me think that Dwight's suggestion of a smaller (water) wing may make things a little easier.
Thanks, that's great feedback!
Ah man I am so stoked to get up the gorge, everytime you guys post photos the conditions look insane. I might have a window in July, if so I'll reach out.
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Well it was nuking yesterday, when I put in high teens and when I got out 30+. 4m is plenty of kite. I managed to stay standing long enough to get the foil up, but I was so off balance I fell right away. Spent a big chunk of the session kneeling and sitting. Gave me plenty of time to practice controlling the kite. Really easy to fly, the dual strut seems to be a good design, but then I have yet to try any other design.
Seems like a catch 22, need strong wind for big guys to get the foil up and then the water is so rough that balancing is a real challenge. I'm thinking a much wider board like the beginner windsurf boards, 7'6" x 34" or some similar monstrosity. In the meantime if there is enough wind today I'm going to the offshore side of the lake and hope the smoother water will help. Yesterday was the most summer wind I have ever seen in Tahoe.
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After a couple days off, we were back at it yesterday. We showed up to an empty beach and 15 gusting to 20 MPH. This is great wind for my 5. Initial frustration with uphauling in chop and losing ground finally committed us to the knee start. That has a lot of benefits. The big ones are stability in chop, you stay much more upwind during get-up, no hand adjustment after standing so you have immediate wing stability and you can already be in surf stance (with forward motion) if you plan it right. I found that getting into the taking a knee (the Kapernick) position before lifting the wing helps a lot (as opposed to lifting the wing from a kneel). Getting the front knee up and on your back toes of the back leg with the wing already overhead can be another fiddly step with chop on the rail. I also learned that if you are kneeling and you want to get to a knee from there you can fly the wing one handed with your back hand and use the free hand on the board to help adjust. My hand is on the second boom handle to comfortably fly the wing one handed with lift. You can also get up from that position and use the free hand to push off of the deck. That is an alternate option but both hands on the booms probably has more advantages.
We also got in a bunch more foiling attempts and the progress is slow but sure. The learning process is equal parts fun, humiliation and reward. Possibly not equal. :)
PS: Swell City is pretty well empty now at 15 gusting to 20. This is a beginning foiler's playground. We are sailing full reaches now. There is waist deep sand on the far side. The current is still strong enough to keep you in place. You can also just sit on the board for a minute with the wing on the water and let the current bring you back upwind if needed.
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Excellent contribution!
I also watched that long German video, was able to see them doing knee starts and then to one knee, helps me visualize what you are referring to. Wind died so it'll be a few days before I get another chance to try these.
Light wind the other day, so I launched from the offshore side and practiced low speed tacking back and forth switching hands and feet each time. For me the best thing about the handkite is how easy it is to manage, especially the uphaul which is essentially effortless. I get really bored flatwater paddling, cruising with this kite is much more fun!
Being able fly downwind and then let the current bring you upwind sounds like an excellent way to learn. I still trip out on the whole gorge setup, Surfing upriver blows my mind.
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For sure. They put a lot of time into that video. There is a lot of great footage of newer riders getting started. The Knee start at the beginning of this one is really helpful as well. You can see Dan making a lot of minor knee adjustments prepping for his start. He goes from a kneel to the Kapernick with the kite already flying. I struggle with that so I am trying to get all of those adjustments done (as close as possible) before the wing is flying. That lets me use both hands to help. He is also starting without getting is back toes into runner's start position. That wasn't working for me. I need those back toes on the deck to help push me forward and up (but that might only apply to me).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNN_PMKyk-A
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For me the best thing about the handkite is how easy it is to manage,
HANDKITE!!! Finally a good name for this thing. It probably won't catch on because it doesn't have word wing in it but I'm using it anyway.
Hand-kite, no confusion with that. Thanks Clay
Oops sorry for my ADD moment.
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Well it was nuking yesterday, when I put in high teens and when I got out 30+. 4m is plenty of kite. I managed to stay standing long enough to get the foil up, but I was so off balance I fell right away. Spent a big chunk of the session kneeling and sitting. Gave me plenty of time to practice controlling the kite. Really easy to fly, the dual strut seems to be a good design, but then I have yet to try any other design.
Seems like a catch 22, need strong wind for big guys to get the foil up and then the water is so rough that balancing is a real challenge. I'm thinking a much wider board like the beginner windsurf boards, 7'6" x 34" or some similar monstrosity. In the meantime if there is enough wind today I'm going to the offshore side of the lake and hope the smoother water will help. Yesterday was the most summer wind I have ever seen in Tahoe.
Interesting enough, this was a very similar thing a certain manufacturer's team rider was telling me yesterday. That in a nutshell, they're not as easy as they seem, and that he'd be surprised if you didn't see a bunch for sale on Craigslist (like SUPs were years back) when many find out that there's a pretty specific window of wind and conditions that'll be needed to be used in. IOWs, it's just not something to pull out when it starts getting a little too breezy and choppy to SUP or foil at your local break.
He also conveyed the stories from some of other professional watermen he was out testing with, and all felt and said the same sort of things more or less. Heck, it was pretty breezy yesterday afternoon, with some mild whitecaps even appearing out in the water, and try as we might, we couldn't to get him to pump it up, and let one of the really talented foil guys give try it. He just said there wasn't enough wind for it, and that he was simply saving him the time, energy, and frustration that he knew would be the only thing to come from it.
So now I'm pretty much just pumping the breaks on this whole thing, and will have to first see exactly what, where, and when these things are even usable in our neighborhood...cuz schlepping something just south of a grand that may just sit in the corner of my van more times than not...is not of that much interest to me at the moment.
Would love to hear from anyone in the SoCal area that's got theirs going, having fun with it, and thinks it's a worthwhile investment compared to all of the other things available to play on the water with around these parts.
EDIT: Btw, they did this testing out on a lake in the windy desert, and were not contending with the unpredictable ocean currents, swells, and small waves we were planning on playing with it in yesterday...so maybe that's another reason he nixed the idea of the first local tries just outside the surfline. :)
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Cabrinha told their dealers 18 knots needed.
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This is really two questions. Is it super easy to learn? How light a wind?
The wind threshold is going to depend on rider weight, foil size, wing size and experience. My guess is that they had a 3 or 4 meter wing and a 1500'ish foil for full sized guys. Naish (for instance) in their early videos was suggesting a 1500 foil wing and they only produce a 4 Meter wing. A 5 meter wing with a Maliko 200 (2000) will foil a 165 lb (new) rider in 15 mph and likely much less wind with a skilled rider. Chan was lifting off at 115 lbs on the 3 meter and 1500 wing in the same wind...and keep in mind that we suck. We went to the other side where it was lighter wind and flatter because that made it easier. In the swell and stronger wind it was hard to keep these combos from foiling.
Riders that can already foil will probably pick it up quickly. The rest of us still have the foil curve ahead of us. I think that that will be pretty substantial. But, if you have a high humiliation tolerance and can stand onlookers with that "I'm sorry for you" or "were you having a seizure out there?" look on their faces, you will be having a blast.
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I expect wing range and efficiency will determine the wind range. If the sport takes off and persists there will be more efficient wings and wider range. The duotone boom starts at 115 which tells me they're considering a 2 Meter wing. The five meter takes 165-169 cm and the boom goes past that to 175 as I recollect. I'd certainly expect to see larger wings than five meter, but not much. While Admin was getting up with his 5 two days ago I was not with my four, but it was close. I'd say the wind was substantially less than 20 though some gusts might have reached higher. I'm reasonably certain a more accomplished wing foiler at or near my weight (230) would be up and flying.
So given a range of wing sizes I suspect 15mph up will be adequate to have fun.
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Duotone has a 2 Meter on their site already. I asked about that at Big Winds (Chan will need one when we are on 3's) but they are not expecting any yet.
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The big question is "is it fun", and I can say that so far it definitely is--even at the flopping around level.
Any watersport looks stupid if you disassemble the bits. Going back and forth across a river at great expense with complicated equipment, with no particular aim is definitely goofy. Add to that it gets boring quickly so you have to start adding increasingly complex tricks to maintain a challenge level.
Downwinding you are theoretically going somewhere, but not to any purpose. Same issue. Years of refinement to master something of no value or purpose. Surfing is even worse.
We do all this stuff because we like to. That's the reason why someone saying "you're doing the wrong thing because you aren't doing what I do" is close to the stupidest thing one human can say to another. "My completely idiotic pastime is better than your totally ridiculous pastime because it's more traditional stupidity." The stuff we're doing has absolutely no purpose, no justification other than that we want to do it.
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Surf winging strapped
https://youtu.be/HyiGAbdRGTQ
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My guess is that they had a 3 or 4 meter wing and a 1500'ish foil for full sized guys.
I think I remember hearing "4 meter", but don't know what wingthing it was, or the foils and/or boards they were on...and yes, I'd say that they could all be considered "full sized guys"...meant in the most complimentary of ways. ;D
Naish (for instance) in their early videos was suggesting a 1500 foil wing and they only produce a 4 Meter wing. A 5 meter wing with a Maliko 200 (2000) will foil a 165 lb (new) rider in 15 mph and likely much less wind with a skilled rider.
I don't know about the wind speed or overall conditions, other than we were told it was enough wind, that these experienced SUP foilers were having a tough time coordinating everything to try to paddle up wind dragging the wingythingy behind them, and that hitching a ride upwind in a boat when they could was what a couple were doing in order to make it easier on themselves...both in getting upwind where they needed to be, and then trying to learn with the thing going downwind.
Riders that can already foil will probably pick it up quickly.
Yeah, that's what all of these really experienced foilers, kiters, SUPers, surfers, OCers, and just plain ol' watermen thought ahead of time also as the story went. But that's not the feeling they came away with after their couple days experience with them. But in all honesty, they also didn't just devote all of their time to playing with the new wingythingies...they were there for other water/wind sports as well as what it sounded like.
The rest of us still have the foil curve ahead of us. I think that that will be pretty substantial. But, if you have a high humiliation tolerance and can stand onlookers with that "I'm sorry for you" or "were you having a seizure out there?" look on their faces, you will be having a blast.
Yep, I believe that pretty much covers it...and I think the "high humiliation tolerance" was something these guys might not have been accustomed to, and probably at least one of the reasons the stories went as they did. :-[ :D
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Yep, I believe that pretty much covers it...and I think the "high humiliation tolerance" was something these guys might not have been accustomed to, and probably at least one of the reasons the stories went as they did. :-[ :D
There is a lot to focus on. I am finding it really challenging and we are both wiped after a few hours. There may be someone new who simply jumps on and goes but that has not been our experience. The hardest part for me is getting into position (standing, wing in hand, feet in position). In a world of triple back flips, 200 foot gap jumps and off the lip push loops, getting up from your knees is not going to be viewed as the pinnacle of sport. But, you still have to get it down. Each step after that is starting to feel more familiar now and I see a path of progression on the actual riding and foiling. I am still struggling with the getup. I am kind of a worst case scenario in that department as my legs don't always do what their told. I find myself yelling orders to them on the water (and occasionally berating them a little bit). I am sure that adds to my cool. The upside is that once you are up and riding you really don't have to be nimble on your feet. I love that. I hope it goes: riding improves=less crashes=less getups=less fatigue (repeated getups are exhausting)=riding improves. Yesterday, we both had our most prolonged foil yet. Still beginner stages but progress. That was day 6. I hope that in a month of days my getup will be easier and I will be able to do basic full reaches on the foil. Good to have goals :).
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We had a day at Roosevelt yesterday with mild wind and really nice water. We downsized our foils to the Iwa (me) and Kai (Chan). That changes things a lot. No fighting unintentional foiling. This allows you to set up and feel where the foil is and really get your stance dialed in. We both felt like we did that. The downside was that the wind quickly dropped off and we didn't have the push to get us foiling. I think we would have been on the larger foils. On the upside we sailed a dozen or so mile long non foiling reaches. We practiced pumping to foil lot :) and ended up at our start point. That is two days in a row so we are optimistically calling ourselves pointers.
Slow progress>No progress!
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What exactly is your board and foil setup? After this much trying, I would go behind a boat or jetski to see if you are even using the right gear for you. It’s very complicated to find the best gear for the individual. With hydrofoiling, it’s really easy when you find the correct feet positions. Once you know where your front foot goes, you never deviate. Usually the front foot is more forward and centerlined and back foot over the hydrofoil centerlined. It’s not a windsurfing stance, it’s wider and more forward and centerlined. There are so many foil variables. The bigger front wing is way easier to get flying, and of course too big can have disadvantages too, so behind a boat you can find your foot placement and test out different hydrofoil sizes with boat speeds. The longer 80cm fuselage is really helpful too and I bet you don’t have that.
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This should help you see some stances for waves in the gorge PV John Laptad Hatchery 7/4/19
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@admin you will probably delete because you don’t like photos of Duotone but this should help you see some stances for waves in the gorge PV John Laptad Hatchery 7/4/19
Hi Julie,
We own a Duotone and we have two more prepaid for at Big Winds :). I have posted numerous videos and photos including Duotone gear. Please reread the emails I have sent you. Here is a snip:
Hi Julie,
I am stoked that you are loving the wing and you are indeed welcome on the Zone.
Here are our posted site rules: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,18427.0.html
Riders that are not paying for gear or have a similar association are typically considered brand ambassadors or team riders. This includes family of sponsored riders, etc. (which has been an issue in the past). Typically, team riders and brand ambassadors are asked not to post any brand related information unless the brand they are affiliated with is a site sponsor. As I mentioned, due to the newness of the sport and the new area on our site, we are allowing some latitude for a while. All brand associated users asked to put that in their profile. That allows everyone to know the associations involved and helps keep the site obvious and useful. Please add Duotone Ambassador to you profile in the place of the other rental link. Thanks!
As you have let me know that Ken Winner is your husband and you are getting your wings from him it is reasonable to ask that you identify yourself to allow others to understand that connection. As noted from the outset this is a temporary exception to our posted rules. This is intended to promote participation, not marketing. Posts that are deemed to cross that line will be removed.
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I updated my profile before I posted. See “duotone rider”. Oh and I do have to pay for gear :)
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Hey Admin,
Any news on the Next Duotone batch? Hate to keep bugging T.J-kinda have given up. I missed the first batch because I wanted the 5m. Only one was sent.
Cheers
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Hey Admin,
Any news on the Next Duotone batch? Hate to keep bugging T.J-kinda have given up. I missed the first batch because I wanted the 5m. Only one was sent.
Cheers
No updates, sir. I was # 12 on the original list from way back when. We have a family full of riders so we need more gear! We are also, sadly, down a 4 Meter SPG (which we believe is now a hobo's home - please call if you see anyone calling a Black & White SPG 4 meter "home" :) ). I am going to get a replacement 4 from SPG as soon as those are available. We currently have 3 Meter and 5 meter which is a bit limiting (but we are stoked to have something to work with).
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Day 8 was a good one. We are feeling pretty comfortable on the boards in chop and current now. Getups are getting more consistent, schlogging around is more comfortable and the foil attempts more controlled. It was a little light but there were still plenty of moments. Making jibes (even ugly ones) helps save a lot of energy. I had my board leash fail (weird) and got to do a little mid river self rescue with the wing. That is pretty straight forward. Didn't end the sesh either :).
I am finding that keeping my arms extended up and towards the nose on a reach is very helpful during the getup. That really pulls you up and forward onto your feet and you start with board motion. I am pretty happy with my foot placement. Most importantly, my legs are actually doing pretty well after a half hour of cool water and I am pretty stoked about that (the first half hour had been frustrating me). Yesterday, I took a cold dip before rigging (the activity of rigging and the heat typically ruins my coordination) and that helped a lot. That is going to be an every day deal now. I still needed 20 minutes on the water until I could stand well but I can live with that. After I am cooled down I am feeling surprisingly good.
We are having a great time and we are loving our gear now. I really wish I had a 4 meter. The 5 is limiting our locations a bit but I do think that it is awesome practice.
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Well, you would have a 4m if you hadn't been so foolish in who you lent it to.
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Well, you would have a 4m if you hadn't been so foolish in who you lent it to.
I am still not convinced of that. I am going with it was grabbed from the car. Not sure what happened with the leash. It was new. In 11 years of living on Maui I broke 3 leashes (and there was no question about why those broke). I must have sliced and weakened this one earlier. The wing is actually surprisingly good to get in with. I was glad to have it because the last 20 yds where I came in was very thick with water weeds and I just float-drifted over them.
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Was it an ion waist leash? If it was new they need to know. I have been using mine almost daily since March. That’s my worst fear!!! Yesterday at the hatchery on the 2m wing overpowered, and overfoiling (I even lost my contact) I gave it a really good work out. I’m considering getting a new one now.
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Hi,
No, this was a straight 8 foot longboard leash attached to the ion waist belt and the board loop. The ion leash was on the wing. Two leashes on the belt is working well for me, although I think two straight leashes may be where I end up. Still messing around with that.
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I had my waist leash fail too, but that was my fault. It's a homebrew one, and the knot came undone. But the unusual strains I've been putting on it getting twisted up and needing to get the foil untangled probably exacerbated the problem.
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I am still confused what broke?
I don’t think ion is getting rich selling waist ion board leashes, so I’m tryin to be helpful and not promoting them, but they make it pretty easy to switch your feet, and seem strong. I’ve tried a bunch even.
I do use creatures of leisure body board leashes for the hand wing. Nice shorty could stays close to the boom.
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Good late session today. I could have used a 5 or 6 but managed to get up on my 4 with some wing and foil pumping. I fixed my poor battered Axis foil today. Looks good. I'll have it in the water after I get back from PDX tomorrow.
I'll probably do a test run with the new smoker this week. It kind of means a day out of the water, which would be a high price to pay except the forecast looks nasty.
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This is my current waist setup. I took off all the extra cuffs, to keep it as minimal as possible. I will replace the coiled wing leash with a straight leash. The coils seem to tangle and grab everything in reach. I would love to see a slightly more contoured and robust waist band (like a super minimal harness for windsurfing or kiting) with the elastic Velcro dual cinches to snug it on . It would have two slider strips (one front, one rear) with a small metal rings as leash attachment points for the board and wing. The downside of the Ion waist belt is that it rotates around on my waist. It requires a lot of recenterring. It is a good enough start for now, though.
I also wonder if a forward board plug may not be useful. I always liked that for downwind boards.
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We cannot have elastic in a waist leash. The belt would pull off your ass when a huge wave drags you backwards. It almost happened to me many times. I have no ass as it is.
I like the waist leashes with the stiffy out the back. It makes the leash hang way behind me. Less chance of stepping on it. Like the leash loc Hawaii.
I’ve done both straight and coil off the waist belt. For us, the straight leash got caught around the wings more often. The coil is short enough to stay away from the wings. But, we’re long past the kook stage. I wonder if you’ll come back to the coil later.
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While my current waist leash revealed my knot-tying deficiencies, it is worthwhile keeping the leash attachment simple. The one I use in big (to me) surf uses hand tied leashes a la Beasho, with big swivels and a closed plastic thimble relief for the attachment. I don't think we need heavy leashes, but they need to be reliably attached to the board, belt and human.
I'm going to make a lighter version of the one I have, with both velcro and a buckle for closure. I'm going to try the fcs skinny leash for the wing, and a short coiled 6 or 7mm for the board
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We cannot have elastic in a waist leash. The belt would pull off your ass when a huge wave drags you backwards. It almost happened to me many times. I have no ass as it is.
I like the waist leashes with the stiffy out the back. It makes the leash hang way behind me. Less chance of stepping on it. Like the leash loc Hawaii.
I’ve done both straight and coil off the waist belt. For us, the straight leash got caught around the wings more often. The coil is short enough to stay away from the wings. But, we’re long past the kook stage. I wonder if you’ll come back to the coil later.
The elastic would be in the harness/waist belt not the leash. This is awesome on harnesses. It is in all waist harnesses for windsurf and kite and it keeps them from wandering. https://youtu.be/i4fJvw3TbVk?t=52 Right now we dont need any support from the harness as we aren't hooking in yet but it does suck to have the belt free spinning. Even really tight it wanders.
The new leash issue here is two leashes. The foil rarely gets caught up but the coil does grab the other leash a lot. This is worse with two coils but it still happens with one. I will let you know how no coils goes. This area of gear can get a LOT better.
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I think we will be back at it tomorrow. We had the grandkids for the weekend and I took a flying tot to the ribs. We were in the middle some heated old school pro wresting (Wild Samoans vs Moondogs) when a 40 lb Rex Moondog came fast off the ropes with full force and elbowed into an already flattened Sika Samoan (grampy). I am one Naproxen away from repaired.
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Some setup tips from the guys at SPG.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr6ePwk0cD4
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WIND. We need wind. WTF, July is supposed to rock, but the river is a lake. I guess there might be something out east today, but I'm getting desperate. I'm starting to get things done in my shop. A few more windless days and I might even clean up some.
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Great morning at Swell City yesterday on the 5 SPG (day 10). I should stop writing on the 5 because all of my sessions are on the 5. I did get a 4 meter SPG on order and I am stoked about that. For my current (low) level I would say that the comfortable range for the 5 meter is 12 to 20. In that range it is really well behaved, is super stable in flight (even flying from the handle) and I love the dual strut for wing angle. This is going to be a pretty critical size for a lot of guys in my weight range (160-180). If your goal is to get out in light wind to cruise or score some unpopulated waves I see this as a necessity. I would have been struggling on a 4 yesterday. We are feeling like the right wing size is 1 notch down from a windsurfing size. So when guys my size are windsurfing on 4.7 I would want a 4 wing. I am digging the 5 wing where guys would windsurf on a 5.8 or 6. The wings do have a broader range than sails but I am finding that the 5 is getting maxed out when guys my size are sailing 4.7 and it kicks my ass at 4.2 or stronger.
The far side of Swell was pretty magical, opening run, corduroy conditions for an hour and a half. Light current, small chop and pretty much blow dryer 16 MPH. It got windier in the afternoon but for once I was stoked to have missed it. I was mid-nap by the time it came up :).
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I like the windsurf sail size wind range comparison. It really helps me.
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Yesterday was a wild one. We went out east to avoid the forecasted gusty, strong winds. It was supposed to be lighter out there. But what we got was 15 to 30. Angry, unstable wind as well. To make things even tougher, the first 150 yards has weeded in and it took us 10 minutes of knee winging to creep through it and clean the foils. I don't know of a faster way. On the way in I flipped my board, got up on it and swam it over the weeds dragging the wing. That wasn't easier :). It was a hysterical condition because you could see these dark cat's paws moving towards you and then detonation. Fortunately, every so often, I found myself in a workable range and that was pretty cool.
I had a minor revelation about stance. I angled both feet forwards more (toes more towards the nose) like an an old school snowboard stance. That opened my shoulders more towards the nose with less of a bound up feeling than just twisting my torso forward. Then I focused on driving my back knee forward as well. That helped me a lot. When I focus on bending that back knee forward everything else shifts a bit forward with it. Maybe this is just a really familiar position for me but all of a sudden I found a position that I could pump the board from. I had been struggling with that. My previous pumping attempts had felt pretty spastic and had been entirely non-productive. Is this my magic pill? I doubt it :) but I did have some really good controlled foils after the switch so I am sticking with it for now. I think we are in for a few more days of abusive conditions before we get back to a steadier pattern.
PS: I switched to two straight leashes on the waist belt and I think I am going to stick there for a while. As a warning though, Chan tried my leash setup and absolutely hated it. It is pretty funny but I am seeing every possible leash combination in videos. Still some work to do there.
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I've been playing with waist leashes for a long time, and it's clear to me that they aren't for everyone. They solve a specific set of problems, if you don't have those they suck, if you do, they're magic.
If you're stiff and clumsy a waist leash is great. If you have no ass or your waist is as big as your butt, then they aren't great. When mine slips down it stops at my butt, but not firmly. If I really get worked it can slide off--been there, know that. Catching your waist leash by spreading your feet wide when you're getting worked is an interesting exercise.
The biggest problem is stepping on the leash, and the only way I've found to solve that is to limit the length. This can create problems in the water if you need to spin your board around--you have to pay attention to how much leash you have to determine which direction you can spin the board in, and if your leash is already wrapped on the foil your only option may be diving under to untangle it. Adding in the wing leash increases the complexity of staying untangled by 3X or more. Maybe X**
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Day 13 was killer. There will be no discussion or future mention of day 12 aside from saying, it (I) sucked. I couldn't talk Chan or Bill into going with me (the forecast was pretty grim and we are in a kind of funky wind system) so I showed up alone to 17-22 and the lot was empty. This was great. I parked 20 feet from the water, rigged right from my tailgate and was out in 5 minutes. It is shorts weather now so no wetsuit slowdowns. Love it! The wind wasn't perfect but it was decent and on the far side I was in range with the 5. Gorge Downwind Champs was running through so there was some great spectating from the water. I had a really fun 45 minutes followed by an overpowered half hour. I had some longer foiling reaches on the far side. Low and slow but still up and yelling like a loon. I have an impact vest now (after a hard hit on the session that never happened). I was very happy for it yesterday. My first foiling jibe effort was a disaster.
After our first few days of riding we had realized that board size was holding us back from getting going. We weren't feeling the knee start yet and the uphaul start was brutal on those boards. Bill loaned me a larger foilboard and Chan started using the 6'6 that I had purchased for myself. Eventually I bought a 6'10 (31 wide and fairly rectangular) Fanatic which was roughly the size of the Board Bill lent me. That helped a lot and we did get pretty comfortable with the knee start. Chop is workable. A lot of current is much harder as it really wants to grab the foil and the air wing. Being overpowered intensifies that but it is still doable. So today we are going to try the smaller boards again. I bought some footstraps and I am going to put on a wide and loose front strap for each of us to see how that goes. We are expecting to go backwards for a bit but we figure this is a good time to transition. Our toleration for humiliation is very high right now :) so here goes nothing. The thought of less board to be pushed around by the chop and less weight to lift off (a lot less in both cases) is driving the change. We may have to do a Monty Python style "run away" but we are committed to a few days of frustration. Let's see how that goes...
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So that's the picture you sent me. It was too small for detail on my phone, but it still looks like ripples on a millpond. I need a five. I'm going to stage a sit-in on the front door of Big Winds until I get one.
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I have a couple days on the smaller board now and it is going better than I would have guessed. The knee starts are pretty solid now and it is much more manageable in chop when up and riding. Chop and current can really have their way with a wide and chunky board. I finally committed to DW's advice and switched down to the Iwa from the M200. I also slid it all the way forward in the track. That did it. No more "getting foiled". The Iwa is allowing me to get situated, point off the wind and pump up onto a foil. I was fighting to keep the M-200 down the whole time during that same process. What a nice change. I feel like some of the preliminary steps are becoming more familiar now. My own hesitation to fully commit is probably my biggest hurdle at this point. The front foot strap is great. That is helping me a lot. I am going to put the back one on as well and get Chan on the same program (need a few washers). I am looking forward to some more stable wind. Yeeeooow!
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I went out for a second time after lunch with the GL240 wing I borrowed from Big Winds. It didn't help that I was exhausted. Jibes in the swell that were easy this morning were impossible. And of course, that means falling in, which = getting back up = downward spiral.
The GL wing is going to take more oomph to get me up but it's far less draggy than the M280. I should be able to get it rolling sufficiently with just a little more wind or a bigger wing. The 5M duotone I borrowed this morning would have worked nicely, but I didn't have the wing then.
The learning curve has been flattened quite a bit by having almost the right gear. We're at about 80 percent now. When these things are getting dusty on shelves this will be easier to learn. If I had a 5 and a 6 to begin with, I'd be further along, but I wouldn't have learned as much of the basics of handling the wing.
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You looked great on the 5 when we showed up. For sure half of the learning curve is working out the gear. The right sized foil and getting it centered under an easily attainable stance is a huge deal. I've been way too focused on mast position and not thinking enough about front wing position. My new thinking is: figure out where your front foot is going when surface bound (on my board there is really one spot that works), measure a comfortable stance width back from that, center the front wing on that measurement. I am guessing at where the center of pressure is on the front foil. I know that I got closer to right yesterday (at least for that windspeed and wing). It just felt so much more predictable and controlled. Of course, I still landed on the foil twice and have a new knuckle on one of my shins. Sweet.
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I can provide some setup clues. On a really small board, there is going to be only one place you can stand, where the volume of the board balances out. Meaning, you’re not sinking the tail or nose and you feel comfortable, and it looks trimmed on the water.
The next step is finding where to place the foil in the track relative to your, needed, standing position. When the foil is too far back, popping up is hard obviously. Get it too far forward, and the board loses its mind. By losing its mind, it starts to get unstable standing. It won’t track straight. It won’t paddle straight. It flies out of control.
Put the foil in the middle of the track and then bump it forward or back in 1/2” increments. Once you get close, start bumping it in 1/4” increments until you find perfection. You want to be on that fine edge where it flies easy, without stepping over the point where everything becomes too technical and unruly.
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Jeremy mentioned on Facebook that he had to move his stance substantially rearward to fly the GL wing. It got me thinking about the difficulties I've been having in getting any foil to fly. Weight is certainly part of it, and yeah, I'm working on that (again), but I'm also using the foot positioning and stance I use for foil surfing, and it's probably wrong.
Little Fugly only has a Tuttle, so I can't really fiddle with wing position, but it's big enough (6'11") to be stable in a fairly wide range of positions, so I'm going to try moving both feet back a bit to see what happens. I've been putting my rear foot directly on the mast and front foot in the frontmost strap position. I'm going to take the strap off and try to find the best position.
Of course, the river/lake is a millpond this morning, and will be totally wonky tomorrow, but Monday we're supposed to get back to strong westerlies instead of the funky gusty crap we've been dealing with. I know to most people a gusty 17 to 22 sounds great, but it sucks for the Gorge. We need some blow-dryer 25.
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Moving down to the Slingshot 5’10 with the smaller Kai wing from the 6’6 Iwa combo was challenging. The board and foil responded much more to chop. The margin for error on knee starts and low speed/height foiling was very tight. Cruising, felt much more in control. I’d like to try it in smoother conditions, but the forecast is for more strong wind and swell. Maybe adding the front foot strap will do the trick.
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Maybe adding the front foot strap will do the trick.
Alright, alright. Hint taken. I mounted Chan's straps (both) yesterday and added the back strap to my board as well. The straps actually center really well over the front wing. I am using the front and rear insert of each cluster so we have about 2.5 inches of front/rear slide in each footstrap. That seems like it should be enough. This video (next post) is the larger (7'6) version of the boards that we have. He is getting up exactly where I am but his 7'6 has a foot of extra nose over the 6'6. That is pretty cool because the only real spot to get up puts you right in the footsraps on my board. Almost no footwork. That works for me as my foots almost don't work :). He never moves his back foot in front of the mast or even to centered on the mast (which is good, because the inserts don't allow that). We will see how that goes. Best news: Tracking says I have a new SPG 4 meter showing up today. My begging landed me first dibs on a wing that did not make it through quality control (minor cosmetic deal on the leading edge). SPG emailed the image below and I typed "bill me" at my fastest 14 words a minute. So stoked!
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https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/484275032115854/
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Really fun 15 MPH day yesterday. Classic that the 4 arrives and we finally start seeing some light wind. All the same, my 5 SPG is awesome in this condition and it was a nice, mellow change. I got to work on pumping up onto a foil and setting down. Slowly becoming more comfortable with that process and I am letting it stay up a little longer each day. I had to sit out a few days with a foil cut/bruise and it left me feeling protective and too cautious (and I hate being sidelined). I had to take off the back strap because it was too far back. I could get in the strap easily enough and it made it really easy to get up but I was struggling to get forward enough to level out. I felt like I wanted the front strap a bit further forward as well but I am out of inserts. I wonder if sliding the foil back a little will accomplish the same thing. Trying that today.
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Moving the foil back will help that, but if it messes up the balance of the board on the water....tail sinking, nose too high, then that is not good either.
It’s OK to foil with just a front strap. Lots of people prefer this. It makes weight shift easy, and allows you to get comfortable (not burning one leg out) on long reaches where wind power can greatly affect the pressure balance needed to ride the foil.
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I really needed a five M yesterday. I went out in the morning and gave up after two passes without enough wind to get even close to lifting. Came back at 3:30 after a thoroughly unproductive day at the shop to a little more wind, but still not enough to power up. I managed to pump up in some gusts that were easy to see coming, but as usual, the gusts were followed by even less wind and I couldn't stay up, even when I turned downwind and tried to just use the swells for power.
Worse yet, I wore my knee out pumping like a lunatic. It woke me up a half-dozen times last night. Better this morning, but the wind forecast looks grim. I have to take Diane to the eye doc anyway.
Being old is not for sissies.
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Moving the foil back will help that, but if it messes up the balance of the board on the water....tail sinking, nose too high, then that is not good either.
It’s OK to foil with just a front strap. Lots of people prefer this. It makes weight shift easy, and allows you to get comfortable (not burning one leg out) on long reaches where wind power can greatly affect the pressure balance needed to ride the foil.
Hi Dwight, I hear you. The board does trim better (on the water) with my stance a little further forward than the footstraps allow. I like the way they have the inserts positioned on the site image below. I wish they had produced it this way :). That shows about a 4 inch gap between that back screw options and front screw options for each footstrap. In actuality, the inserts have no center space. It all runs together as one cluster. The back of the clusters are in the same spot as in the image but the clusters do not extend as far forwards towards the nose. In the image it would have been possible (for instance) to center your foot on the mast or even in front of it. There are no inserts in front of the mast track in actuality. The frustrating thing is that it is very close. An extra inch or so forward with my front foot would do it. The drag is that I really like using the straps. It is a very controlled feeling.
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No rear strap is a thing with wind powered foiling, kiters and windsurfers. Windsurfers often just step all over the rear strap. Kinda hard to just step on straps with a wing sail. No harness for support.
With kite foiling I used a front foot hook for years. Nothing in the rear. My wife still foils this way. A rear strap or hook was, and is, a nuisance unless you’re into jumping or racing. You really need to be able to move that REAR foot way forward to keep nose weight going 100mph and not burn the legs out.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bz9S18jnU_2/?igshid=1663witdsp8i6
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Ken, Sky and I choose no footstraps. When I fall I want to get away from the hydrofoil and I do, especially always holding onto the hand wing. Straps have potential to scissor. If you have to use straps to get flying there is likely something wrong with the setup. With the hand held wing it should be easy to get flying if the hydrofoil is the right size.
I keep reading these posts and you guys are trying everything. One thing you could try is to see if your hydrofoil setup is good and experiment with hydrofoil wing sizes and position towing behind a jetski.
BTW- not all foilwings are created equal. Some are way harder to ride and catch the tips in the water or have less rigidity etc etc so that’s another variable.
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Hi,
Footstraps feel awesome (even when slogging around in chop). You should try them! I hope to work out a good position so I can get the back one on again. Likely very helpful in a non-crawling waterstart also...someday. That is the dream.
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Ken adjusted my backwing 1/2 degree down, and it was amazing how much easier it was to fly downwind. Just a tiny adjustment is significant..
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Ken adjusted my backwing 1/2 degree down, and it was amazing how much easier it was to fly downwind. Just a tiny adjustment is significant..
I am a believer. We are using GoFoils so we have no fuselage length options or individual wing shim options but we are now finding that small positioning adjustments mean a lot. We have 28.5 inch masts (one is 33.5 because of the Tutttle adapter). Our big hang up so far has been that we were (air) wing limited. Because we had lost our 4 meter we have been limited to one wing each, 5 for myself, 3 for Chan. Bill has been limited to a 4 meter. At the end of each day, one of us says, "that was perfect" while the other two scowl :). In seriousness, I think that this will be helpful long term. If not, it has made for some great slapstick. We are completely stoked to have the middle size back now and I can't wait to try it. I have a feeling that 4 will be my money size and I know that it will be more fun for Chan on those really light days.
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If I can't get a five, maybe this would work:
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67099098_10220037595472525_393005811279855616_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_eui2=AeFnSsgdh4J74szUg_2xjhYdSjySfCfD7TD6kFt1xscoX0TMbS7wK1U7s8xOXuWgWIWzzq5MRMZkmROPJwQxfJIi5HiYGlL_7ai1T0B1nCgu2Q&_nc_oc=AQlO4NdDYOX2SESZCcCHKr-uTTP5P4N3doYgAMj6ErdT20-ns7o2ZKxP_OydkbiPmiE&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=e10f5900504e9209f308dee21898672e&oe=5DA79323)
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Bill that’s too small still. Hehe.
I’ve been “bagging out” my 3m on down winders in the middle of a run, if it gets light. I have a new boom adjustment strap. Really helpful. Give that a try with the 4m and “bag” it out. If the carbon boom can’t adjust, I would go back to the AL
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For me, this confirms the Gong 7m is NOT too big. So when is the 6m being released by Slingshot, Duotone, and SPG!
If I can't get a five, maybe this would work:
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67099098_10220037595472525_393005811279855616_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_eui2=AeFnSsgdh4J74szUg_2xjhYdSjySfCfD7TD6kFt1xscoX0TMbS7wK1U7s8xOXuWgWIWzzq5MRMZkmROPJwQxfJIi5HiYGlL_7ai1T0B1nCgu2Q&_nc_oc=AQlO4NdDYOX2SESZCcCHKr-uTTP5P4N3doYgAMj6ErdT20-ns7o2ZKxP_OydkbiPmiE&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=e10f5900504e9209f308dee21898672e&oe=5DA79323)
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If I can't get a five, maybe this would work:
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67099098_10220037595472525_393005811279855616_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_eui2=AeFnSsgdh4J74szUg_2xjhYdSjySfCfD7TD6kFt1xscoX0TMbS7wK1U7s8xOXuWgWIWzzq5MRMZkmROPJwQxfJIi5HiYGlL_7ai1T0B1nCgu2Q&_nc_oc=AQlO4NdDYOX2SESZCcCHKr-uTTP5P4N3doYgAMj6ErdT20-ns7o2ZKxP_OydkbiPmiE&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=e10f5900504e9209f308dee21898672e&oe=5DA79323)
Wait...what!? I just ordered their 7m yesterday, and saw or heard nothing wrt a 9m when ordering at their website, and talking with them on multiple emails. Waddupwitdat? :o
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Bill that’s too small still. Hehe.
I’ve been “bagging out” my 3m on down winders in the middle of a run, if it gets light. I have a new boom adjustment strap. Really helpful. Give that a try with the 4m and “bag” it out. If the carbon boom can’t adjust, I would go back to the AL
My carbon boom is already set at the fully bagged setting. I have some one-inch rings I can add to tighten the wing, but I've never used them.
That reminds me, I still have a carbon mast for you. Ken said you already had some.
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Question? ....with all the new interest in foiling, is basic sup racing dead? It seems so yesterday....
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I mean, really, what were they thinking? ???
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I mean, really, what were they thinking? ???
Who you mean by they?
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OK, I am not really sure what I meant. Funny thing though....After doing a few circuits on the bullets at the hatch yesterday, driving out we saw a guy on a 14 v2. My first thought was, where did this guy come from....
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OK, I am not really sure what I meant. Funny thing though....After doing a few circuits on the bullets at the hatch yesterday, driving out we saw a guy on a 14 v2. My first thought was, where did this guy come from....
Race participation and certainly the number of racing events has faded but I am still seeing a good number of recreational SUP downwinders coming through. Of course, some have migrated from SUP to other downwind sports for variety. As a whole downwind traffic seems higher than ever. There are a handful of regulars who SUP foil downwind here but that aspect of the sport seems to have a brutal learning curve particularly as a first foiling activity. I don't see wingfoiling as cannibalizing SUP in any major way. For many it will just add function to their existing SUP gear (surface or foil). For those with the SUP downwind bug, I don't see wingfoiling downwind as a major tug. The physicality of SUP downwind and the technicality of linking swells is a huge part of it. This isn't going to touch that. It is a different beast.
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My downwind boards have been gathering dust since I got a wing. Not because I have been doing wing downwinders, just that if there's wind, I'm trying to wing it.
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Bill that’s too small still. Hehe.
I’ve been “bagging out” my 3m on down winders in the middle of a run, if it gets light. I have a new boom adjustment strap. Really helpful. Give that a try with the 4m and “bag” it out. If the carbon boom can’t adjust, I would go back to the AL
My carbon boom is already set at the fully bagged setting. I have some one-inch rings I can add to tighten the wing, but I've never used them.
That reminds me, I still have a carbon mast for you. Ken said you already had some.
I have been bagging it out 2 clicks beyond the shortest reccomended too. Yes, I was hoping to get it, but you hadn’t mentioned it at dinner. We are back Aug 5
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This was an incredible Gorge week. Great wind and just beautiful. We scored 4 more days at 5 locations. One really cool side benefit of this sport is that we have been using launches that we haven't visited in years. These are breathtaking spots that can serve up some flatter conditions when it is howling. Plus, they are lesser used spots that all have these super cool groups of regulars (don't think locals, think hospitality) that are incredibly faithful to these beaches. We have been running into people we haven't seen for 30 years.
Our 4 Meter SPG has been an epic addition. I used it two days and Chan used it two days. We are finally both feeling like we have the right size at the same time. After using the 5 for everything the 4 feels so tiny and nimble. It is incredibly well behaved in 20-27. I have only used the 3 meter once ever. I should have had it out 3 or 4 more times early on but I was too engaged to come in and change it. There is a lot going on for a new rider in good sized swell and strong wind.
We all are feeling happy with our progress (we suck less each week) and are adding to the micro-skills that are leading to comfortability. My feet know where they need to be now and they are going there without a lot of active direction. That is huge. I had to take off my front strap to find its eventual final placement. This is slightly ahead of the furthest forward insert position (and slightly angled to the side). I need some sticky inserts to get this done. Add that to the last 3 modifications which I likely won't do until winter :).
My new mantra this week was sheet down not sheet in. I realized that the windsurfing was still strong in me and that regardless of the starting wing angle I was unconsciously deforming a sheet in of an overhead wing into too vertical of an overall wing position. Thinking sheet down makes me consider the starting wing angle and has helped me a lot.
Grandkids this weekend and then back to it on Monday!
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Would like to hear your thoughts on the SPG,
in another thread of course
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This seems like the right spot :). We are stoked with the SPG's. I think there are likely a dozen companies producing wings at this point and I have not had any exposure to most. It is also clear that riders are doing great with all of them. All that said, I am so pleased with this choice. The fly easily, are very intuitive, feel very well balanced and have proven to surprisingly durable. We try to baby them as much as possible but we have rocky launches here. During our first week, we were not ending up at our launch beach (or any beach) which has meant more dragging and scraping than we would have liked. The wings still look new. That has impressed us a lot.
The dual strut feature is great. It sets the wing at a really advantageous angle and helps a lot with tip drag. If you watch videos you can see that this is a common issue and this is likely the biggest hurdle for new riders. I also think that the second strut adds stability which leads to a very controlled feeling wing.
One of the major factors in our choice was availability but having used the wings now I would buy them again in a heartbeat.
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Thanks for that feedback. A lot of the wings look very similar. But a few are different from the rest and the SPG is one of those. They look stout and you like flying them so that is good to hear.
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This seems like the right spot :). We are stoked with the SPG's. I think there are likely a dozen companies producing wings at this point and I have not had any exposure to most. It is also clear that riders are doing great with all of them. All that said, I am so pleased with this choice. The fly easily, are very intuitive, feel very well balanced and have proven to surprisingly durable. We try to baby them as much as possible but we have rocky launches here. During our first week, we were not ending up at our launch beach (or any beach) which has meant more dragging and scraping than we would have liked. The wings still look new. That has impressed us a lot.
The dual strut feature is great. It sets the wing at a really advantageous angle and helps a lot with tip drag. If you watch videos you can see that this is a common issue and this is likely the biggest hurdle for new riders. I also think that the second strut adds stability which leads to a very controlled feeling wing.
One of the major factors in our choice was availability but having used the wings now I would buy them again in a heartbeat.
Admin., just curious. I looked up SPG online, and from what I could see they do not have a window in their sail where some other brands do have this. Was wondering how important you think this feature is?
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It may be a you don't miss what you have never had thing but I am not finding a need. The wing is overhead to some degree a lot of the time so you really have very good vision unlike on a windsurfing sail where it is mostly in front of you. This is nice for barge checks :).
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The Duotone wings have windows, but I find I don't actually use them, when I want to see where I'm going I pop the wing up high and look under it. I'm not sure why I find the window to be not useful, I'll have to think about that when I'm using the wing.
I greatly prefer the Duotone wing over everything else I've tried, though I really need a 5M.
I certainly didn't need a 5M yesterday though. I had a good session though it was full of crashes, both low and high speed. I went out at swell city, good wind but surprisingly big swells considering the current is low and the wind was 20 gusting to 30--big lulls and nutty gusts. I still suck at getting off my knees on a starboard tack, so I went across the river in the Pocahontas position in light wind, probably well less than 20, and headed back on a port tack from the Oregon side. As I got going I noticed all the windsurfers exiting at the Swell City cove at the same time. "Odd" thinks I, and then I got nailed by a 30mph gust. Which was actually fine for getting up on the foil, but I was on my 280 GoFoil and 4M. I went from too little of everything to too much.
I got up perhaps ten times on one run across the river, happily foiling away for a pretty good distance before overfoiling and face planting. It sure felt like ten face plants, whatever the number was.
I decided to switch to my Axis 1020 with 90CM mast. Much less likely to overfoil, though if I managed to do so I'd be augering in from a lot higher up. Bottom line, holy moly I like this foil. With enough wind (I had plenty) I could get up just by powering up. It's a lot less draggy than the M280 or M200, so the board gets up to higher speed before liftoff. Once I got up I got going ridiculously fast. I should have pumped up to get well clear of the swells, but I was so stupified by the speed that I just sort of hung on. I bounced off five or six swells at high speed with the board no more than a foot off the water and then finally slammed into a steep one and exploded off the board. The splash was spectacular. I know this because everyone on the beach told me so.
Crash aside, I'm really excited about the Axis foil. I still have Big Wind's GL240 as well, and I should have tried it yesterday, but I had to go meet a FedEx driver at Luhr Jensen to receive two Tesla battery modules for Fritz. By the time I got the modules the wind had dropped to punky levels at the Hook and Luhr, so I headed for the shop to store the modules.
Today (Saturday) is zippo for wind, so I'm setting up a container for my battery experiments. If all goes well it will go into Fritz later. If it doesn't I might have a toasted container for sale.
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I greatly prefer the Duotone wing over everything else I've tried, though I really need a 5M
Duotone is definitely one that I would be interested in. Another that caught my attention is Slingshot. Have you tried theirs? I think they call it the Slingshot Slingwing. They have what one reviewer called “a reinforced trailing edge strut” which I thought looked interesting, but not sure what difference it would make in practice?
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I haven't tried one myself, but Mark Ribkoff tried one and liked it.
He also tried the F One wing a few days ago, that has some promising features including what I guess would be called a gore that attaches the inflated strut to the wing. That allows the wing to form a nice foil shape in the middle instead of being directly connected to a spar that's flat. I like the looks of it so much I'm thinking of adding it to my Duotone wing, which sometimes goes the other way--bagging into an inefficient shape in strong wind unless it's outhauled hard. Attaching the gore to the boom without interfering with hand positions will be a trick I'm thinking a few velcro tabs that wrap around the boom would both free up most of the boom for any hand position and allow some shape adjustment.
You can see the gore and the overall improvement it makes to the foil shape in the middle of the wing in this video. Isolating air movement between the top and bottom wing might offer stability benefits as well.
The Duotone wing doesn't get flattened in the middle by the boom, but it does bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nKz-BG2OEI
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He also tried the F One wing a few days ago,
I have the FOne Swing. The damn thing is so light the slingwing felt
Like a heavy lifting workout in comparison. It’s also packs surprisingly
Small in comparison. No trailing edge struts making it deflate so much quicker.
The slingwing does not seem like a well thought out wing in term of ease of use.
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Thanks Bill and Burchas. I’ll add F One to those I look at. Storage space is something I’m concerned with, so if the F One packs up smaller than others, and still flys well, that would be an advantage.
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Sorry for the complete newbie question, but I looked online at the F-One Swing, and it either comes with, or you can get as an option, a harness line. What is that used for? Is this used to secure the wing to you, and then you don’t need to use your hands?
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So far I have tried the SPG a lot, the Duotone (a little) and I have flown a Naish on land.
It is really easy to form early preferences and I think that most of the perceptions that you will read (mine included) are based on very little usage. I am not sure how valuable that is.
A couple of early reactions. The Naish has a pleasant feel and feels quite light and predictable on land. The handles on the SPG are more substantial and as above I dig the dual strut angle assist. The shape of the SPG and the position of the handles is different. The draft is also further back on the Naish which has a different feeling. I like handles over a boom. I feel like the boom wants to rotate in my hand. The rectangular feel of my handles is much more positive feeling for me. The Duotone has one unexpected behavior. From the leading edge handle it flies comfortably and is stable upside down but once flipped rightside up it beats from side to side. This is a side to side sway in low wind but it gets aggressive in high wind. This means that you have to go quickly from handle to boom. Once hands are on the boom it is not noticeable. This is primarily an issue when arranging for a knee start. That is the when you are most at the whims of the elements and I like all the stability I can get at those moments.
As earlier, riders are doing wonderfully on all of these designs so they are clearly all very capable and a personal preference will be a big factor.
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Sorry for the complete newbie question, but I looked online at the F-One Swing, and it either comes with, or you can get as an option, a harness line. What is that used for? Is this used to secure the wing to you, and then you don’t need to use your hands?
It doesn’t come with it or even with a pump for that matter. My Red Titan pump
Work well so saved some money there. Harness seems like a very good deal
If you are the one selling it :D otherwise I don’t see much point but then again
I’m a newbie myself so what do I know.
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Thanks Admin. and Burchas. And to everyone else who has answered my questions and is helping me to sort through all this.
Burchas, one more question. I’ve looked and found a lot of information about the F-One, but I haven’t found any pictures of the size of the wing packed up. I like the way Admin’s SPG packs up so small, and wondered what the F-One looks like packed up. Any chance you could post a picture of your wing packed up, or failing that just give me a rough idea of what size it packs down to?
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He also tried the F One wing a few days ago, that has some promising features including what I guess would be called a gore that attaches the inflated strut to the wing. That allows the wing to form a nice foil shape in the middle instead of being directly connected to a spar that's flat. I like the looks of it so much I'm thinking of adding it to my Duotone wing, which sometimes goes the other way--bagging into an inefficient shape in strong wind unless it's outhauled hard. Attaching the gore to the boom without interfering with hand positions will be a trick I'm thinking a few velcro tabs that wrap around the boom would both free up most of the boom for any hand position and allow some shape adjustment.
You can see the gore and the overall improvement it makes to the foil shape in the middle of the wing in this video. Isolating air movement between the top and bottom wing might offer stability benefits as well.
The Duotone wing doesn't get flattened in the middle by the boom, but it does bag.
I think you are meaning what is called a "Luff Strut". DW brought that info here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34671.msg398882.html#msg398882 This was news to me but it is a good name for it :). He mentioned that this a Naish feature from kites. SPG uses this on their wings as well. It is on both struts of course. The cut of that material determines the realized shape of the wing. On the SPG you can control the powering and relaxing of that extra material with sheeting motion. This helps a lot with managing gusts. A little push up on the sheet hand reduces pull and little down and you are at full power again. I know that I would miss that if it were not there.
You can see the shape of SPG's luff strut above the strut at :06 in this vid:
https://youtu.be/pUJrd36rNwo
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Interestingly, Naish didn't use a luff Strut on their wing (or possibly it is just reduced in comparison to the others). I believe this is why the draft on the Naish felt further back to me. Here are some images showing the SPG, F-one and Naish approaches. I added Duotone as well showing their approach. As they don't use struts the battens (in part) are determining shape.
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I’m confused by what I’m seeing on the F-One. Is there a panel on each side of the center strut? Wouldn’t it trap water?
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I’m confused by what I’m seeing on the F-One. Is there a panel on each side of the center strut? Wouldn’t it trap water?
They have a 3D function on their site which shows it really well. It is a single deal. Here is an image. It also shows a harness strap which is in a different configuration than on the SPG. It looks like F-one did a lot of great stuff with the possible exception of the handles. That ends up being a critical feature. I wonder if we wont see some modularity there in the future.
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The Slingwing is also getting a great looking profile. It looks like they are getting there using strut shaping as opposed to a luff strut.
This video shows it very well.
https://youtu.be/d2LYjCYdD7s
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Nathan Van Vuuren getting into some nice waves on his SPG:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B00Yj_In8Fb/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
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Thanks Admin. and Burchas. And to everyone else who has answered my questions and is helping me to sort through all this.
Burchas, one more question. I’ve looked and found a lot of information about the F-One, but I haven’t found any pictures of the size of the wing packed up. I like the way Admin’s SPG packs up so small, and wondered what the F-One looks like packed up. Any chance you could post a picture of your wing packed up, or failing that just give me a rough idea of what size it packs down to?
Here are the pictures for the packaged F-One Swing along side its bag (which unfortunately doesn't come with the color of the actual wing unless you have the Red one).
I don't really need the bag when packing the wing in my gear bag but probably good to have if you want to keep it in the trunk for "on the fly" (pun intended :D) excursions
The wing packs 10"x15"x6"
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Hey burchas,
How durable does that F1 feel. I heard they are light but the person I talked with was questioning the longevity of it.
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Hey burchas,
How durable does that F1 feel. I heard they are light but the person I talked with was questioning the longevity of it.
I can only say it felt similar to other wings. That said, the Slingwing definitely felt more durable though considerably heavier, but I'm no expert on construction.
For my use case I don't foresee any issues with that wing but only time will tell.
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Thanks Admin. and Burchas. And to everyone else who has answered my questions and is helping me to sort through all this.
Burchas, one more question. I’ve looked and found a lot of information about the F-One, but I haven’t found any pictures of the size of the wing packed up. I like the way Admin’s SPG packs up so small, and wondered what the F-One looks like packed up. Any chance you could post a picture of your wing packed up, or failing that just give me a rough idea of what size it packs down to?
Here are the pictures for the packaged F-One Swing along side its bag (which unfortunately doesn't come with the color of the actual wing unless you have the Red one).
I don't really need the bag when packing the wing in my gear bag but probably good to have if you want to keep it in the trunk for "on the fly" (pun intended :D) excursions
The wing packs 10"x15"x6"
Thanks Burchas. I didn't realize they would pack down that small. Good to know.
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I got pretty much blown off the water today. Out at Luhr Jensen on my 3M and Axis 1020. Fully powered up right from the start, and monster breaking swells in the middle of the river with gusts that were insane. I was up on my foil instantly on a port tack, and made it all the way across the river--first time ever. I also did a few runs that culminated in out of control face plants from high altitude. Big sissy.
On the starboard tack I didn't do so well. I'm still having trouble with the water starts in that direction--my bad knee isn't helping. But mostly I have a bit of a mental block I think. I need to work that out. It's easier for me to start on a port tack and then do a non-foiling jibe and hop to switchfoot than to get up switchfoot. Big sissy.
The wind kept building and I had some very out of control foiling adventures, one of which nearly landed me on my front wing. I decided that was enough and bailed. On the water at 1:30, off by 3:30. Big sissy.
Mmmm, 42 MPH gusts. Maybe I'm not such a big sissy.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67760627_10156682185448668_7542237479747715072_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQnWBBZbCRb5LWuTembrlQd8jZBOGjjvP4-hdDuWLVQ8F7Hga2bX__Q88sDXSyEwK-s&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=36c6d7ca59d8764b9930c33554239057&oe=5DDB31D8)
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Hey Bill, I was super lit on my 3m too.....not
Day one with a wing for me.
https://youtu.be/55ewxWvZ96M
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Yeah, it was a lot like that only three times as much wind.
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I had a blast at the hatchery riding up and down to swell on a 2m fully depowered as much as I could out haul it! Ken was on a 3m because we only had one 2m here. I didn’t want to stop, it was kamikaze downwind flying fun. I felt like a bird. People don’t understand the joy of flying with the wave power straight downwind. I can turn, sure and ride river “waves” (I am from Maui) but this is a different thrill. However, my nose is awful. 2 days and I can’t breathe and can’t sleep. Any advice? I forgot how bad it can get.
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This is the major offender for air quality (besides several tons of pollen being propelled by 35 mph winds). No, that isn't a cloud, and this morning it's just a general blankness to the north. Can't see Mt. Adams at all.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67929308_10156683589058668_8587006197398241280_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQkxxPedgVtVUj1alohizIbap0017XVnkpeJmdGNSfN76bTq2E5e3dv3BpMKsUP5OIo&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=9b2ada4cbf90b3f9610da2c34fd60087&oe=5DE55E77)
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We all had a fantastic day today. Two sessions and steadily increasing wind. I started on my 5 SPG and Chan started on the 4. It quickly blew through those sizes so I took the 4 and headed back out. I grabbed Chan's board for the first time and took it out. Man, I didn't want to give it back. It is 5'10 by 25 wide and it is super light and nimble. The knee start is very doable but it does take a little care in positioning. There is really only one right spot for everything. Her foil was too small for me and her (one) footstrap was adjusted too tight but it was all very workable. I am sold on foots straps and Chan is loving hers. I am going to put both footstraps back on both boards. I think I see a foil/strap position combo that should work. With my foil on that little board I think this is a great next step. The only downside it that it is tough to do a mercy jibe on it. That is going to take some practice. I was one for three and it was ugly.
Onward...
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Hey Admin
Wondering about your dual strut wings.
In my head I understand holding the upper strut as it should give you a more wing stable. But, does does holding the upper sacrifice power if compared to a comparable sized single strut?
2. Do you ever use (hold on to going in one direction) the bottom sturt? If so what condition would you want to hold on to the bottom one?
Oh yah wait one more. Do you ever mix up holing one hand on top and one on the bottom?
One for Bill, what am I looking at in your offending air quality photo?
I'm guessing it has something to do with why Julie can't breath...
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See that big cloud behind the mountains? It's not a cloud, it's a fire.
Yeah, today was fun. A little too nuts at Mosier. I was getting up on my Axis foil with the 3M wing and making it most of the way across the river, which feels great, but I was on the edge of control most of the time, even though I didn't crash. Coordinating the wing and foil at mach 3 is a lot. I've been defaulting to putting the wing up in a neutral position once I get the foil going good, and only adding power if I start slowing down.
Coming back on the starboard side sucked, I still can't waterstart on that side==I need to work on that. And I got up on the foil a few times but wound up going downwind at high speed with the nose of the board up. I don't know what I'm doing wrong other than my switchfoot control of the foil is not great. The general wind was good but the gusts were consistently over 40, so it was kind of freaky.
I pulled up stakes and joined Admin and Chan at Rowena, which was good because the wind was good and the swells were smaller. iWindsurf shows it at 20-25 with the wind building all day. There were some substantial lulls, but in general I was powered up on my 4M and able to foil on port tacks, did a little better on starboard.
Went back to my shop and worked on my Battery Test Container. It's pretty much ready for primetime. I just need to install some kind of load. Give the temperature inside the container I think that will be the old air conditioner from Fritz.
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Coming back on the starboard side sucked, I still can't waterstart on that side==I need to work on that.
Do you mean a windsurf style waterstart?
I want to get a smaller board but getting up from the knees is going to be hard....
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Hey Admin
Wondering about your dual strut wings.
In my head I understand holding the upper strut as it should give you a more wing stable. But, does does holding the upper sacrifice power if compared to a comparable sized single strut?
2. Do you ever use (hold on to going in one direction) the bottom sturt? If so what condition would you want to hold on to the bottom one?
Oh yah wait one more. Do you ever mix up holing one hand on top and one on the bottom?
One for Bill, what am I looking at in your offending air quality photo?
I'm guessing it has something to do with why Julie can't breath...
Hi Fish,
I hold the top strut at all times. This effectively puts just a bit more area below that strut than above it. The effect of this is that the wind will set the wing at a really comfortable and natural angle. When I held the Naish (for instance) it wanted to drop on me where my SPG just lifts up a bit. The only time that I use both simultaneously is during a Jibe (and just for the hand pass). I initiate the turn with a little sheet down, let go with my back hand, pull my font hand up above my front ear just over my head, as the board comes around I take my free hand and put it on the other strut using the handle just below the one for my old forward hand. I let go with the original hand and pull the new front hand across my chest (still overhead) and out in front and above that new front shoulder. Dual Strut is really advantageous here because you are eventually looking to put your front hand exactly where the old one was. Dual strut means that that position is always open so it keeps the handwork very clean and obvious.
I have M.S. and my funky nerves don't do anything well that isn't already in muscle memory. I am not an on the spot guy anymore. If it seems like I grind these minute steps that is because I do. It is the only way I can get my body to cooperate. I have become a method man. :)
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I want to get a smaller board but getting up from the knees is going to be hard....
If that is your goal (it is mine, so I am writing this in part as encouragement to myself) I would suggest to start on a foilboard and learn the knee start really well. Focus on wing lift pulling you up smoothly as opposed to just standing from your knees (that is much less of an option on a smaller board). When it is working well it requires almost no leg strength. Even a floaty foilboard will feel small and challenging. That is good. You will fall off of your knees a lot (I didn't even know that was a thing). There are a lot of microskills to be learned from that which will help you with all aspects of gear control. Once that is solid, I would move down in board size to the point where you are uncomfortable again. That will become comfortable too. Then do it again. I think it is good to get this started right away. It will test you humility :) but it is fun and challenging. I hope the resale market is good on foilboards or I am going to need to build a shed :)
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Coming back on the starboard side sucked, I still can't waterstart on that side==I need to work on that.
Do you mean a windsurf style waterstart?
I want to get a smaller board but getting up from the knees is going to be hard....
No, just the on the knees waterstart. You'd think it would be the same to both sides, but my knees are toast and I have a hard time getting my foot forward. Once I do I can get up easily, but doing it switchfoot is much harder. My feet wind up in the wrong position. Just something I need to work out. This is a lot harder than windsurfing was when I learned it back in the 80's. Of course, back then I was in my 40's, not in my 70's.
Right now the biggest problem I have is that once I'm up on the foil I need to pay attention to both the foil and the wing. The easiest conditions for me to get up, since I don't have a 5M wing, is when it's blowing like stink, which generally means gusts and turbulence, so easier to get up, more attention needed for the wing. I'm getting there, and I'm enjoying the process. It's very rewarding to do something that's hard for me but yields steady progress. Making it across our one-mile-wide river up on the foil and flying is a huge thrill. Now if I can just get to drive instead of being the passenger.