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General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: VincentShay on June 19, 2019, 09:10:17 AM

Title: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: VincentShay on June 19, 2019, 09:10:17 AM
Hi there! Since my wife and I own a kayak and paddleboard shop on the central coast of California (Avila Beach Paddlesports) and we had about 6 months off due to all the rain we got this season, I had alot of time on my hands. 


This Foil Thing has captured my interest after going to San O' last year to surf with my wife and we happened to park next to Jeff Clarke.  He was cool enough to show me his foils and talk about it. Then I surfed with him, me on my board and him on his foil.  REALLY cool!  For the next few days Em and I watched these amazing athletes foiling and making the often less than stellar, mushy surf, look fun.


Some of my friends on the Central Coast was doing it, mainly surfing, but I really am into downwind SUP paddling, so I wanted a downwind foil.  I had never done it, nor knew anything about it but I was game to try. This season was tough on the wallet so I couldn't afford a new foil and board (jeez, like $2000 + WOW) BUT I figured I could make one.  Even if it didn't work out, I thought maybe I would learn some stuff. And what the heck, I had designed some kayaks in my time (design for Murky Water Kayaks in Canada) in the surf kayak world way back.


How hard could it be! HA, I was in for a lesson.


It was a LONG process of learning and searching on the internet for what others were doing and the ideas behind hydrofoils and how others were making their own. I wanted to make it easy as possible so I learned Fusion 360 and made some large wing shapes, thanks to a few people on the internet who helped me. I had my .stl file and off to get some EPS foam cut! NO way not as easy as it seems...or as cheap!


Back to the drawing board!


So, either people were engineers and experienced carbon fiber/infusion/mold making guys with vacuum bags, etc, which I was NOT or you were someone who tried to carve something out of wood...or maybe skills somewhere in between.  I wanted more!


Yesterday, 5 months after I started this project I was able to put my wings on an old CorranSUP a friend had put foil boxes in (they ended up coming out after 10 runs!) and was towed behind a small inflatable to see if this would even FLY. It did!


Really I had no idea what I was doing. Most of us don't, I think! But I think at least going for it is a great learning experience.  Enjoy the vid! Its entertaining a bit and will give you a general idea of what I did to make mine. Its about 6 months condensed into 10 minutes of fun and frolic.


Now, I am going to go out and buy a good GoFoil Maliko 200! Hahahahaha.


Watch in HD.[size=78%]http://youtu.be/G7dqD0kPDLg (http://youtu.be/G7dqD0kPDLg)[/size]



Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: PonoBill on June 19, 2019, 09:45:05 AM
Before you give up, try making your wings out of plywood. I tested shaping a wing from three layers of 1/4 ply with carbon between the layers. Glued them up with epoxy and a lot of clamps. I didn't shape a usable wing, just roughed it out to test stiffness. Answer: very stiff. I think I can make a durable, cheap wing very quickly with a CNC router and this material. If you want to enhance the durability you can glass it, or just soak it in epoxy, stick it in a bag and draw a good vacuum on it. Release the vacuum and the epoxy penetrates. Basically the old WEST system simplified.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: VincentShay on June 19, 2019, 09:55:17 AM
For sure! Thanks for the ideas.


So, for me I want to make a couple more...but this first one was kind of getting my feet wet.  If this thing works, I would just send up to Murky Waters to make a mold and carbon fiber prototype.  Really stiff and a tad thinner...probably work even better.


I just needed to figure out an easy way to create the more complex shape like what Slingshot was doing...something the DIY guy could do easily.


This one was actually stiff after laying up with 3 layers of 6 oz glass...one more layer would have been optimum but it got the ball rolling. 


Super fun!
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 19, 2019, 10:41:56 PM
Love hearing this man. Iíve still not flown mine since the break on the initial test flight.

I agree with Pono, make your prototypes out of ply. Container on here does a great job. As to the ďnot knowing what youíre doingĒ thatís fine man, I think a lot of these companies had no real idea. Just stubborn enough to make and test.

Glad to see another home builder.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on June 20, 2019, 12:36:47 AM
Loved the vid and story. I was racking my mind 18 months ago with ways I could make a foil when I was trying to get into the sport and little was available locally and everything was v expensive. Ended up getting a cheap foil off Alibaba to get started. Still think of ways I could make my own wings. Liked the plexi glass/foam method. Inspiring. You have got me thinking again :)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: FRP on June 20, 2019, 02:35:23 PM
Hey Vince

Inspiring video. Love the stoke. I came into surfing through kayak surfing. My wife also surfed and had a Murky Waters carbon kevlar ďReactionĒ arguably one of the finest high performance surf kayaks ever designed and built. And the designer was.......Vince Shay! It has been a few years now but I can still picture her flying down a wave face in Tofino, doing a speed role, come up and the continuing surfing the wave. I sold my Salsa this year to a local young ripper. Now totalling addicted to SUP surfing. Great to hear from you.

Cheers

Bob
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: VincentShay on June 20, 2019, 04:22:48 PM
Hey Bob! So STOKED that you loved that surf kayak.  Those were fun times! Now I am all about downwind SUP.  We have an incredible run here from Avila to Pismo....


Seriously, thanks for the shoutout and I think the biggest stoke I ever got from Surf Kayak Design was seeing people enjoying them in the surf.  I built that Reaction in 2004 and people still buy it from Murky Waters.  Way too honored.  The best thing was that these kayaks don't break. And I tried!  Ed at Murky Waters is seriously one of, if not THE BEST manufacturer in the World. 


This foil thing is pretty interesting...I just bought two foil boards from Dave over at Infinity and can't wait to actually learn to use them in the surf with a 'real' foil.  Thanks for all the suggestions ALL.


-vince
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: SUPeter on June 24, 2019, 09:25:51 AM
Yes, you will have a very strong and stiff wing using plywood.  You will also have a very heavy wing by going that route, not to mention the extra time it takes to carve that wood to spec, unless of course you have a CNC cutter.  Take a look at the carbon lacing method between ply templates . It'll cost you about $50 USD in supplies and will create a wing that often weighs less than production wings.  The biggest benefit being the easily followed contours of the ply templates which will help to create perfectly shaped and symmetrical wings with ease. Just a thought!  It really is easier than the wings I've carved from plywood. Just a thought.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: PonoBill on June 24, 2019, 10:13:24 AM
I have a CNC router on the way, and I'll probably get a larger, higher spec one as soon as I'm comfortable with it. The idea is to be able to design a wing and have it carved without my attention and effort. In that scenario I can make a lot of them with different design ideas for the same amount of time invested that it would take to master making one with your method. Especially since I'm not a particularly careful or patient worker.

I'm not worried about weight for these wings, I probably won't even seal them to extend their life--they can be one or two uses and fall apart as long as I learn what I'm looking for. I like your approach a lot, I might try that later. I have a Glowforge laser cutter that would pump out those templates nicely.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 24, 2019, 07:17:01 PM
Pono, if you cut me some ribs Iíd 100% do a test build using Peterís method. Iíll pay materials and shipping and offer whatever design help I can (little to none lol) So if you want a test pilot Iíll kick in some labor.

I have a pretty good mast and plate design. I need a better way to calculate and set my angle of attack but I think those of us on here who have been doing this (and have no real commercial outcome) should team up and start open sourcing some of this stuff. The commercial guys can benefit but so will the DIY guys.

Iím about to take on making a foil board from scratch and Iíll post what I find Oas always.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on June 25, 2019, 09:40:40 AM
Has anyone got any info on the dims of the new GL GoFoil wings? Have been inspired to start laminating a plywood high aspect wing to try and fit onto my Gong fuse. The blank is 110cm x 20cm. The GL wings look very flat from the pictures I have seen. Would like to get a better idea of the wings dims including the angle of attack? Everything so far has been eyeballed!
Thanks in advance :)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: PonoBill on June 25, 2019, 11:07:11 AM
Pono, if you cut me some ribs Iíd 100% do a test build using Peterís method. Iíll pay materials and shipping and offer whatever design help I can (little to none lol) So if you want a test pilot Iíll kick in some labor.

I have a pretty good mast and plate design. I need a better way to calculate and set my angle of attack but I think those of us on here who have been doing this (and have no real commercial outcome) should team up and start open sourcing some of this stuff. The commercial guys can benefit but so will the DIY guys.

Iím about to take on making a foil board from scratch and Iíll post what I find Oas always.

If you can give me the template outlines in a vector format that I can convert then I'll be glad to run them off for you. Otherwise it's project 2031. Which means you can expect to see them around 2031.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 25, 2019, 07:05:14 PM
Sounds like my schedule. lol

Iíll see if I can sort that out. Seems do-able. Iíll hit up SUPeter and see if heís ever drawn them or if heís eyeballing them.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: kiwi on June 26, 2019, 01:15:53 AM
Has anyone got any info on the dims of the new GL GoFoil wings? Have been inspired to start laminating a plywood high aspect wing to try and fit onto my Gong fuse. The blank is 110cm x 20cm. The GL wings look very flat from the pictures I have seen. Would like to get a better idea of the wings dims including the angle of attack? Everything so far has been eyeballed!
Thanks in advance :)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)

My next project is a wing like these new high aspect ones. I'm going for a metre span with a chord of 160mm using an NACA 4416 profile, I considered a thinner profile but since its allready so much smaller in the chord it will only be 26mm thick which is allready much thinner than most wings. I'm going with 2 degrees AOA with washout of 2 degrees over the span so that the tips are at 0 degrees.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: Lazz on June 26, 2019, 06:40:30 AM
Has anyone got any info on the dims of the new GL GoFoil wings? Have been inspired to start laminating a plywood high aspect wing to try and fit onto my Gong fuse. The blank is 110cm x 20cm. The GL wings look very flat from the pictures I have seen. Would like to get a better idea of the wings dims including the angle of attack? Everything so far has been eyeballed!
Thanks in advance :)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)

My next project is a wing like these new high aspect ones. I'm going for a metre span with a chord of 160mm using an NACA 4416 profile, I considered a thinner profile but since its allready so much smaller in the chord it will only be 26mm thick which is allready much thinner than most wings. I'm going with 2 degrees AOA with washout of 2 degrees over the span so that the tips are at 0 degrees.


Looks very promising Kiwi, does it fit on the Axis fuselage?
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: SUPeter on June 26, 2019, 09:02:09 AM
I cant be sure but from the little video and pics I've seen I'm thinking the wing section is closer to the H105 profile(Tom Speers hydrofoil profile) and is 12% thickness to cord ratio.  This produces less lift but also less drag making for a faster and more controllable lift profile.  Can anyone confirm this?  The span is near 40 inches for some.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: SUPeter on June 26, 2019, 09:03:46 AM
Here is a pic
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on June 26, 2019, 09:21:47 AM
Thanks for all the great info guys. Kiwi your dims are very similar to what I had in mind, maybe a little thinner in the chord. Don't know how I will get any washout in the shaping but may be able to induce some when glassing. What effect does that have? The profile info is v helpful. Thanks again.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: SUPeter on June 26, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
Washout is used to prevent the whole wing from stalling at the same time.  This is used to give pilots extra time to recover from a stall.  As far as using it for surf foils, I believe it makes a more user friendly wing by modulating lift across the wing thereby giving us more time to correct angle of attack. When making wings using the lacing method I simply induce the correct amount of downward wing twist toward the tips before I add the 2 part polyurethane filler and/or Eopxy-microballoons.  Once the filler is added, the wing twist is locked in.  I use about 1-2 degrees of washout(at the tip)  gradually across the whole wing.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: kiwi on June 26, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
Has anyone got any info on the dims of the new GL GoFoil wings? Have been inspired to start laminating a plywood high aspect wing to try and fit onto my Gong fuse. The blank is 110cm x 20cm. The GL wings look very flat from the pictures I have seen. Would like to get a better idea of the wings dims including the angle of attack? Everything so far has been eyeballed!
Thanks in advance :)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)

My next project is a wing like these new high aspect ones. I'm going for a metre span with a chord of 160mm using an NACA 4416 profile, I considered a thinner profile but since its allready so much smaller in the chord it will only be 26mm thick which is allready much thinner than most wings. I'm going with 2 degrees AOA with washout of 2 degrees over the span so that the tips are at 0 degrees.


Looks very promising Kiwi, does it fit on the Axis fuselage?

Sure does
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on June 26, 2019, 11:57:57 PM
Washout is used to prevent the whole wing from stalling at the same time.  This is used to give pilots extra time to recover from a stall.  As far as using it for surf foils, I believe it makes a more user friendly wing by modulating lift across the wing thereby giving us more time to correct angle of attack. When making wings using the lacing method I simply induce the correct amount of downward wing twist toward the tips before I add the 2 part polyurethane filler and/or Eopxy-microballoons.  Once the filler is added, the wing twist is locked in.  I use about 1-2 degrees of washout(at the tip)  gradually across the whole wing.

Thanks. Makes sense. :)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 04, 2019, 06:28:11 AM
My GL wing is now roughed out. Happy with the profile. Dims are 1m x 165cm x 25mm thick. I have tried to get some wing washout by twisting the laminating. Any suggestions re shaping the aero profile are appreciated. A sureform seems the favourite at the moment. Slow but accurate. :)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: blackeye on July 04, 2019, 12:32:59 PM
Vince, I like your effort! There is a lot of subtext for us novice builders to pick up on, but the biggest thing is perseverance. That part when you said, "... I promptly lost interest...": At first I was thinking that should have been edited out, but then that was a part of your story. And I have to admit for me too. A refreshing take on build videos.

A process question: I don't understand the role of the plexiglass. Does it become part of the wing structure? Or is it just a pattern/tool/form? If only a form, why not just use the wooden form to glue foam together and skip the plexi?

Another thought when I saw you pressing down on the hot plexi: DIY ski builders use a matching form as the other half of a clamp to put the camber into their layup. A bit more effort but may give a more certain result.

Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: container on July 04, 2019, 04:09:14 PM
Supunk, use a block plane, a spoke shave and long sanding board and it will shape up in no time
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 05, 2019, 03:05:52 AM
Thanks container :)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 22, 2019, 07:03:42 AM
Work continues slowly on my high aspect wing. Wing shape is based on a GOE648 airfoil with a chord of 165mm and a wingspan of 980mm. I need to route out for the fuse and finish roughing out the profile. I have tried to induce some wing washout by twisting the laminating which shows up in the lam lines. I was going to fit on my Gong foil but may try and mount on my NP Glide to avoid mast flex issues. Thanks to steamroller for posting some pics of a GL wing.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 22, 2019, 07:16:04 AM
A better view of the profile. Thanks for looking :D
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: surfcowboy on July 22, 2019, 10:33:28 PM
Love seeing these. I need to get mine tested someday.

How are you calculating the AOA to mount it?
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 23, 2019, 06:18:58 AM
Love seeing these. I need to get mine tested someday.

How are you calculating the AOA to mount it?

That is a good question. I hoped someone on here might offer some advice :)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: surfcowboy on July 23, 2019, 08:35:50 PM
lol. I tried to build 1-2į into mine and I left a flat mount so I could shim it. I guess with a slip on mount you just have to know.
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: container on July 23, 2019, 09:18:00 PM
looks good supunk! i use an axis style mount on my wings and am currently building a full new setup, i went away from the gofoil style sockets a few versions ago as it is extremely hard to make a tight fitting socket without a vacuum set up and even harder to make sure it all comes out straight and true.
i have used this method previously on my plywood wing and had no troubles with it at all.

here is the foam centre section of my new wing, all marked out on the bottom face which is left flat for now to make alignment easier.
i cut out an over size hole for the foil mount (axis mounts are 63mm wide so the hole i cut is around 73mm) and cut in a small rebate ~4mm deep to take a piece of carbon plate. the idea with leaving the underside of the wing flat is so the carbon plate sits in flush and level with the wing- easy to get it all lined up!

once the plate is glued in i put 1 layer 200g bi-ax carbon and 1 layer 200g twill in the rebate and out to the marked pencil lines around the hole. and cause this is only foam 1 layer of 200g twill over the whole top face of the wing.

now it is stiff enough to shape up the underside, glue the tips on and wrap it all in everyones favourite black cloth. i have only just started this wing so ill keep you updated as i go 
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on July 25, 2019, 03:14:26 AM
Looks great Container. Thanks for all the helpful info. I have sent you a pm :)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on August 04, 2019, 04:25:21 AM
Work continues on my DIY high aspect wing. Now pretty much ready for vacuuming. Routed for the fuse + 5mm carbon reinforcing plate on underside. Just a little fine shaping required. Have gone with a 2deg AOA. Fingers crossed! Thanks for looking.
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=b092a1dbb65fc65d5e5c930eee1a555c)
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: container on August 06, 2019, 12:12:45 PM
looks good, do you plan on laying carbon or glass in the socket on top to seal the ply? these wooden wings get water logged super easy and start to delam. my one had a few chips in the tips from the paddle and it only lasted 6 months before becoming soggy and delaminating 
Title: Re: DIY SUP Foil Wings- Oh geez.
Post by: supunk on August 07, 2019, 12:17:49 AM
Hi Container
Plan on epoxying the whole wing. Will be using the fuse as a mould in the top socket to try and get a tight fit. Will see how it goes. Fingers crossed. :)