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The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 05:03:26 AM

Title: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 05:03:26 AM
Watching the early videos it looks like there is a real need for a roll control handle in sailing (winging?) position.  The booms and handles aren't giving any leverage and there are tons of examples the wings rolling in the rider's hands/wrists.  Roll control isn't an issue in Windsurfing due to the fixed mast foot and in kiting roll is easily controllable due to the wide line connection points.  This is really unique to Wingsurfing.  My first mod is going to be a little carbon bar lashed perpendicular to the boom strut at the front hand.  I think that should add a lot of control while learning (and I will need all the help I can get :) ). 
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: ninja tuna on June 04, 2019, 06:42:13 AM
Could you post one of these videos that you are talking about.  Not totally understanding your explanation.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 08:17:32 AM
Could you post one of these videos that you are talking about.  Not totally understanding your explanation.

I am seeing it in most of the videos to varying degrees.  The problem is that we are trying to control a wing with a ton of leverage from the wingtips from a very narrow center position ("horizontal" booms or handles on a single strut).  I see no way that we are going to get any meaningful control (over roll) with our hands in handlebar position.  I think a "vertical" front hand position option (if we are calling the current position horizontal) preferably with a broad attachment points will help a lot (it won't be perfect). 

You can see the issue clearly in this vid with a new rider but look for it in most vids and I think you will see it.  Lower wing tip dropping or both wingtips controlling the roll.

Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 08:19:19 AM
https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/2102448806714887/
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 08:31:05 AM
My plan (it works in my head :) ) is to attach a carbon tube between the two struts and in the indent between two existing handles.  I imagine his hand in the image below is a natural balance point so the actual placement for the front hand bar will likely be fairly close to the leading edge where there should be good rigidity.

Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: PonoBill on June 04, 2019, 09:47:57 AM
Sounds good, but no. As soon as you get one in your hands and play a bit you'll see that you won't be controlling roll with muscle power and wrists, you do it with the attitude angle of the wing. Nose up raises the lower wingtip and flattens the wing into the wind, nose down lowers the wingtip. You need to be fairly precise with this angle, and it might be nice to have more leverage for those times when it's not easy to tune that angle, but it's a tweak, that may or may not be useful. I'm thinking probably not.

The reason those floppy handles on the pure inflatable wings don't work well is that they don't allow any precision in managing the angle of attack. I kept dipping the wingtip which flips the wing upside down. Anything that gave more precise control, or better yet, that would let you hold the kite in a way that automatically positioned the tips up, would help. Like a boom for instance.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 04, 2019, 11:05:39 AM
What we have now is a kite with the steering lines both attached to the center strut.  We have pitch and yaw covered but left roll to fend for itself.  :)

I picture this more to help with light air where the wings are "swimming" or rolling with less wind support.  Helping to keep that tip up until airflow takes over and during pumping.  You see the wings controlling the riders a a lot in video.  You can try mine and see if it's useful :).  The thing that attracted me to the SPG design is that they offset the struts to allow more belly at the bottom which in turn puts the wing in a natural wing position for initial lift off.  I like the look of that...and the wide mount points for my roll bar. 

This guy opted for the boom aligned on another (single) axis :).

https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/314656969440850/
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Rider on June 04, 2019, 12:07:20 PM
There was a foiler with a wing at the hatch yesterday afternoon. The wind was 15 to 40 with lot’s of chop. Let’s just say it wasn’t pretty 8)
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Fishman on June 04, 2019, 05:07:32 PM
Along this line as your roll handle.
Thinking some of these inflatable wider single strut models could benefit from having additional (less floppy) handles on the sides of the struts. Possible offering a dual strut like effect.

Watching the slingwing videos it seem it's being held at the perpendicular part of the handle. Kind of choking up like. Maybe for better control.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: PonoBill on June 04, 2019, 06:29:42 PM
There was a foiler with a wing at the hatch yesterday afternoon. The wind was 15 to 40 with lot’s of chop. Let’s just say it wasn’t pretty 8)

And then there's Rod doing this:

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61840070_10156083595282155_8040607806690164736_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQmuN6SQWMuT3QZXBtzSyDlTzOnW80Mvi6Oq5zbA4muUrT0PEWe_q6pldV6lkZyADso&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=69db074ed836f333d17660d0b303e0fe&oe=5D880258)
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Rider on June 04, 2019, 07:08:20 PM
Look’s so simple a cave man could do it.....
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 05, 2019, 02:31:31 AM
Watching the slingwing videos it seem it's being held at the perpendicular part of the handle. Kind of choking up like. Maybe for better control.

Hah!  I had missed that.  It does show a "vertical" position there.  Cool.  It will still be leveraged from a relatively narrow single strut but I could still see that helping a lot.  I was wondering if this was in part why they ended up adding inflatable the trailing edge as well.  I think we will see a lot of running changes and tweaks as this moves along.

(https://www.kingofwatersports.com/images/products/slingshot-slingwing/slingshot-slingwing-alt5-product.jpg)
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 05, 2019, 02:51:43 AM
There was a foiler with a wing at the hatch yesterday afternoon. The wind was 15 to 40 with lot’s of chop. Let’s just say it wasn’t pretty 8)

I think he looks like he was doing fine.  It is a brand new deal :).  I am sure there were some tricky moments (that wind was pretty punchy).

Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 05, 2019, 02:52:47 AM

https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/2514818458541784/
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: ninja tuna on June 05, 2019, 04:41:39 AM
thanks, i see what you are saying now.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: PonoBill on June 05, 2019, 07:06:52 AM
I need to stop welding shit and go pump up and down pointlessly on my foilboard. Other people are having all the fun.

On a positive note, the BBFS (big, big f'ing smoker) is basically done. Now it needs sandblasting and painting. It looks like some kind of primitive space capsule or maybe a really ugly locomotive, but it's about ready for duty.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 06, 2019, 02:02:21 AM
Also, Slingshot's inflatable trailing edge is likely designed to help keep the wing tips from tweezering together in gusts.  You see that happening a lot and it is creating two big, deep windbags. One above and one below the boom.  They mostly cured the taco problem of the early entries but going to beefier leading edges in the mid section by the center strut or boom where they had been folding.   This other issue is still really distorting the wings in windier conditions, particularly on designs with thinner inflatable leading edges at the wingtips. 

Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: PonoBill on June 06, 2019, 08:39:00 AM
Boom adjustment on the Duotones is critical. I was getting flogged by the 4 meter wing until Alan called me in and did a quick adjustment. I thought it was kind of silly until I went back out and the wing performed far better--and I stopped flopping around as well.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Beasho on June 06, 2019, 08:48:56 AM
Boom adjustment on the Duotones is critical. I was getting flogged by the 4 meter wing until Alan called me in and did a quick adjustment. I thought it was kind of silly until I went back out and the wing performed far better--and I stopped flopping around as well.

Say more - I assume you mean length adjustment like the old windsurfer days. 

You are a font of knowledge at this point having tried MORE THAN ONE BRAND OF WING. 

There are guys asking questions on Seabreeeze in Australia.  Very few people have ridden ONE wing much less 2?

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Wind-Wings?page=6

Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: clay on June 06, 2019, 09:45:47 AM
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByXoJOGF4Ao/?igshid=m6tmdpoz7lhh

Looks like he just strapped his paddle to the naish wing?  I'm just guessing, seems like this would be a standard procedure both for control and having a paddle to get back to shore.  But I'm also guessing the paddle blade could be dangerous for a beginner, as in having it flap around could really gnarly...

I bought a 3 piece paddle to carry on my person in case I manage to get blown out to sea and can't fly back...
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: PonoBill on June 06, 2019, 02:49:06 PM

Gong has now jumped in with some soft looking big ass squared wings that go up to seven meters. I'm trying to imagine where you would use these monsters.

https://youtu.be/jG4uyDOudBg
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: DavidJohn on June 06, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByXoJOGF4Ao/?igshid=m6tmdpoz7lhh

Looks like he just strapped his paddle to the naish wing?  I'm just guessing, seems like this would be a standard procedure both for control and having a paddle to get back to shore.  But I'm also guessing the paddle blade could be dangerous for a beginner, as in having it flap around could really gnarly...

I bought a 3 piece paddle to carry on my person in case I manage to get blown out to sea and can't fly back...

The Naish wing has velcro loops that hold your paddle and can be used like a windsurfing boom for those who don’t like the loopy handles.

I should have mine in a few days and I’m thinking about chopping the blade off an old paddle to just use the shaft with something at each end to hold it in place.
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on June 06, 2019, 03:18:36 PM
Dragonfly has one

(https://dragonflykiteboarding.com/wp-content/uploads/Dragonfly-Freewing-kanaha-maui-hawaii-square.jpg)
...and Cabrinha is now looking closer:

https://www.facebook.com/wingdotsurf/videos/303362800541059/
Title: Re: Roll Handles for WingSurfing
Post by: Admin on August 08, 2019, 04:17:12 AM
Here is a guy who went all in on roll handles.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B0y_yeEHkeg/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
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