Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP => Topic started by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 01:40:33 PM

Title: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 01:40:33 PM
Here is a great overview of the Duotone foil wings by Ken Winner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67JgSz1bIk0
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin
Post by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 01:41:04 PM
I had been wondering how all these wings popped into existence seemingly overnight.  Naish, Duotone, SPG and others.
 
What Ken says here explains the genesis for these wings and how they all came to the forefront so quickly. 

https://youtu.be/67JgSz1bIk0?t=60

It was all kicked off by the Flash Austin video March 25th, 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb1XbqxmusY
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin
Post by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
Ken, how did the idea for the Foil Wing come about?

I experimented with some inflatable wing ideas back in 2011 for use with SUPs. At that stage, we felt that it was an interesting idea butit didn’t excite us enough to push further, so we shelved the project. A few years later, Ralf Grösel took on the idea to design an inflatable sail for windsurfing that became the successful product you know as the IRig. During the summer time here in Maui, we do a lot of downwind paddle foiling and I go regularly with my neighbour who’s a bit of an extreme waterman. A couple of years back, after a summer of non-stop SUP downwinders, I became curious to see how else I could enjoy the wind swells, increase my time on the water and add some diversity to my sessions.

It was also at this time that I saw Flash Austin out on the water with a simple Wing he had made in his garage from fiberglass spars and canopy material.

It got me thinking, I bet I can make something like that, but as an inflatable Wing. That’s where the design process began.Over the course of a couple of years and after more than different 20 prototypes, here we are, ready to introduce the Foil Wing to the world!

Full Interview here:

https://www.duotonesports.com/foilwing/news/detailed/foil-wing-designer-interview-with-ken-winner/
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin
Post by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 01:50:21 PM
I was whining at TJ at Big Winds about how I need the Duotone wings soonest before I forget everything I learned from Alan Cadiz. It turned out they have a Naish 4M in the shop, and he let me try it to get rid of me. I zoomed back to the shop, stuck my 280 GoFoil on Mr. Fugly, picked up the wing at the shop, and made for the event center.

Got everything rigged and made my way down to the water. Before I ventured forth I did a little dry land practice and was a bit concerned. The loop handles are loose, so the wing moves around a lot. There's also not much lift--it's more like a kite wing or a sail. That probably wouldn't be a big deal for most folks, but my shoulders are really bad and holding something up in the air isn't easy. The Duotone wing has plenty of lift, so just maneuvering the leading edge pulls the wing up so I'm more or less hanging from it. The Naish kit didn't feel like that at all.

From: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34846.msg399937.html#msg399937

PonoBill may be one of the few who has tried more than one wing.  These vendors may converge on similar designs but given this string of information I am leaning towards a Duotone.  2 Questions:

1) What size?  Would a 4 Meter cover wind speeds of 8 to 15 mph?

2) Where is the Dog-Gone BUY button?
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2019, 02:25:21 PM
I think Tony Logosz was first with the inflatable handheld wing and the first to use an inflatable wing on a foil.  https://blog.slingshotsports.com/top-5-questions-answered-about-wingsurfing-and-the-slingwing-2019/ .  We had a thread here about the image below with the paddle way back when. 

(https://blog.slingshotsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/slingwing.jpg)

KiteWing predated that (early 2000's) by many years and introduced the windsurfing style half boom, but those were rigid wings.  Before that was the Wind Weapon but that was attached to the board, so a little different again.

(https://scontent-ort2-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/47f615e2554e9f1d75a528588f9791ef/5D725DE9/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/59320288_2342620029398414_5805831004658826636_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.cdninstagram.com)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsQbamLQmOw
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: JEG on June 02, 2019, 02:29:00 PM
I do like the Duotone and its gonna hard between 3M or 4M. I also like the slingshot wing but I'm not sure what size available?
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Beasho on June 02, 2019, 03:10:54 PM
I think Tony Logosz was first with the inflatable handheld wing and the first to use an inflatable wing on a foil.  https://blog.slingshotsports.com/top-5-questions-answered-about-wingsurfing-and-the-slingwing-2019/ .  We had a thread here about the image below with the paddle way back when. 

Agree with this photo and I always wanted a Tom Magruder WindWeapon  BUT the quote:

"Being a pioneer and leader in all things foiling, we knew someday soon larger wings with more lift and better riders would evolve to a point where a device like the Slingwing would have a place."

Is a bit upsetting.  Slingshot may have been pushing the limits of kite and windsurf foiling but they 100% missed the boat when it came to Self Powered Surf Foiling. 

Kai Lenny and Alex Aguerra brought Surf Foiling to the 'masses' while Slingshot was by their own admission waiting for things to evolve.  The vestiges of this I see all the time with people trying, and failing to surf on tiny kite foils or failed 1st generation "KAI" sized surf foils.  No adult should be starting on any wing smaller than a GoFoil IWA. 

Regardless of the history the current arms race between Naish, Duotone, SPG, Slingshot . . . will only benefit WE the consumers.  Its pretty obvious they are all dusting off old designs as fast as possible. 

Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Admin on June 02, 2019, 04:29:04 PM
It is really interesting.  I genuinely think that the sudden interest in this took the brands by surprise.  It had been pretty close for a long time (with no strong public interest) but it just didn't look quite right.  I credit the evolution of SUP foil boards for finalizing the package.  That took it away from the older windsurf board (or windsurfing foilboard) vibe to something that looked more balanced and correct for a wing.  And the wings do look a lot better now as well (all of them).  Now, what made the brands all say, "wait a second, maybe that is worth another look".  Was it Flash's video?  It is a likely candidate.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Dwight (DW) on June 02, 2019, 05:32:30 PM
.......Now, what made the brands all say, "wait a second, maybe that is worth another look".  Was it Flash's video?  It is a likely candidate.

Here is what Ken told me. (We are old friends)

He started prototyping wings and testing openly in Maui, because he believed downwind foiling was a great application.

But nobody else was on board, not even Duotone. He even talked to Tony about it the Gorge, but Tony blew it off.

Ken kept making prototypes and having fun. Eventually people did take notice and so did Duotone.

Then the race was on to get production going between all the brands. Probably social media helped it blow up faster.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: PonoBill on June 02, 2019, 11:46:27 PM
I assume the neighbor Ken Winner is talking about is Alan Cadiz--he lives across the street from Ken. That's how Alan got the prototype wings that I used.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: jondrums on June 03, 2019, 01:36:07 AM
So, what is the best way to get a Duotone wing in California?  TJ @ BigWinds?  Or maybe a shop on Maui?  Anyone know, because I want to know where the confounded buy button is.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Admin on June 03, 2019, 03:03:18 AM
Interesting though, that the first production wings (from anyone) have yet to arrive and that the ETA's are all pretty much the same.  :)  There is a big dose of Run DMC, of course.  I'm the king of rock, there is none higher, Suckah MC's should call me sire.  The upside is that it is clear that these are all very functional as a starting point.  Riders are doing well on all of them.  If the sport sticks (and I think it will) there will be a lot of product advancement.  I wonder if you wont see roll handles, for instance.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: PonoBill on June 03, 2019, 06:31:22 AM
They need some work on where the leash attaches as well. Having the wing beat you to death while you're trying to sort out your shit after a fall is not constructive.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: supunk on June 03, 2019, 08:23:40 AM
The buy button is appearing in the UK. Have just ordered a 4m Duotone and considering ordering a 2m as well. :)
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Lazz on June 05, 2019, 07:15:21 AM
Just pulled the trigger in Germany for a 3 and 4 m Duotone primary for SUP use and then learning Foiling.
The Wing  price not include the boom, have to ordered separately, that's pretty interesting and makes a quiver price lower. ;D

Duotone Foil Wing 4m    € 580,00
Duotone Foil Wing 3m    € 539,00
Duotone Foil Wing Boom. € 119,00
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: PonoBill on June 05, 2019, 07:28:08 AM
I sailed with Wind Weapons back in the dim past. I had a fairly inclusive quiver though I never had anything small enough for a big east wind day. I got blown almost to Cascade Locks on a particularly spicy day--I couldn't go upwind or even manage a broad reach without overpowering the fin, what little of it was in the water. A small problem with sails that have a lot of lift: They lift.

Talk about the walk of shame.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Beasho on June 05, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
A small problem with sails that have a lot of lift: They lift.

To this point - What is the future of flying with these wings? 

Granted the whole benefit of flying on a foil board is HALF THE DRAG.  So we don't need a lot of lift.  But if it can go vertical it would be cool.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Wetstuff on June 19, 2019, 01:11:35 PM
Beasho,    ...just bring the stones and start out with elevation. ...and, leave all the sissy, protective gear at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8IRgrI7Fkg

Jim
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: Badger on June 19, 2019, 01:52:15 PM
That video was 2010. This video is 2019. Kitewings haven't changed much in that time. Still made in NH. Interesting that they are not having anything to do with the inflatable market.

https://vimeo.com/329404696
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: JEG on June 19, 2019, 02:26:58 PM
nice alternative.
Title: Re: Evolution of Foil Wing: Duotone Perspective & Flash Austin Video
Post by: PonoBill on June 19, 2019, 09:11:55 PM
Brett Lickle had a kitewing at Kanaha when I was taking lessons on the Duotones. The problem of course is that they don't float. He was working on solving that with strategically placed pool noodles. The other problem was he had it tuned flat. Great for lift, bad for stability. You can crank some dihedral into Kitewings. I used to have one for sand sailing. I never figured out what to do once I jumped off the board. My only solution was crash like a ragdoll. I wonder where it is? Probably stayed in a closet when I sold my beach house in Manzanita.

They used to be pretty reasonable given how well made they were.
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