Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: fatfish on May 20, 2019, 09:24:21 AM
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Saw a GF Insta post over the weekend announcing new GL Wings. "The GL is a new flat style wing that comes in three sizes,180,210,240"
Just curious if any of you over in the foil capital has any insights. thanks.
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call.Karla right now
..tell her you would like to be put on the list for the new GL wing and tail.....no matter what she says itll cost....pay it😁.....you will NOT be disappointed....i actially told.her.i dont.care what itll cost...i NEED that new wing...i made the mistake of tryimg it out couple.weeks ago before they had that pump contest at waikiki so they couldnt let me buy one and now ive lost all the will to surf with the old stuff...totally spoiled...
i could actually do figure 8's in the flats with that damn thing...its that good ...i dont.mean spin around in a pirouette left and then right..
i mean an actual pumping carving figure 8 after ive kicked out of the wave and pumped back out to the lineup but the set is over....THEN pump around in a left.circle
..and an right circle...
if you've seen the derek hamasaki videos...thats what he's riding...the new GL series wings...he's real good anyway but the GL wings make a really big difference
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Pictures?
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call.Karla right now
..tell her you would like to be put on the list for the new GL wing and tail.....no matter what she says itll cost....pay it😁.....you will NOT be disappointed..
What size do you recommend? I weigh 185.
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Gofoil back in the game (althought they have not been out ;) ) it is nice to see the evolution.
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Alex was testing these wings most of the winter on Maui, quite a few of the better foilers had a shot at them and really liked them, the competition to use them got fairly fierce in the polite way that characterizes this bunch of people.
The biggest advantage I could see was basic efficiency, which is, of course, what you'd expect from higher aspect, flatter wings. They didn't seem to turn well, which is also as expected, and people using them who typically did banked turns well, were doing the kind of flatter, tentative turns that I'm still stuck doing. But they were also staying up without pumping, staying higher longer, and when they did pump they seem to get a lot more out of it.
If course the signature and axis foils have included flat, high aspect wings in their repertoire for quite a while, so GoFoil is playing catch up here. Alex has some newer designs under his hat. He was going to show one to me but I made the mistake of saying I was planning to make a bunch of wings this summer to experiment, so he didn't show me his new toys. I should have made it clear that I'm just doing personal experiments--no commercial intent--but he's right to be careful.
I've been studying high efficiency foil wings for a while, and I'd say surf foil designers are a long way from peaking out on what is feasible. But there's lots of pressure to improve and good competition considering how small this market must currently be.
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I was talking to laird in the water other day. Asked him if he’s tried any of these high aspect wings from any of the companies. He mentioned not liking flat skinny high aspect wings as they go up and down, so pump, really well but when you do a turn they sink into the water.
Has anyone that has ridden one confirm or deny this type of behavior?
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I was talking to laird in the water other day. Asked him if he’s tried any of these high aspect wings from any of the companies. He mentioned not liking flat skinny high aspect wings as they go up and down, so pump, really well but when you do a turn they sink into the water.
Has anyone that has ridden one confirm or deny this type of behavior?
Dave Kalama said that those wings are not for all conditions, he didn't explain much.
For Laird, I don't know but to me he seems to ride bigger waves so maybe those new wings don't handle bigger waves ??
I can see those foils super efficient on small mushy waves and better for pumping than turning.
Still a lot to improve, that is where you see the difference with brands really working on R&D and the one that just follow the trend...
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....but when you do a turn they sink into the water.
Another way to state this.....they side slip to the inside of a turn, if you allow speed to drop off.
That’s my experience with flat surf wings. Not the current type, but older ones.
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It's mostly a matter of the lift dynamics and how the wing responds to being banked and turned. Any wing in a turn will be going slower on the inside wingtip and faster on the outside wingtip. It's a small difference in speed but a big difference in lift since lift increases as the square of velocity. So the inside wing has less lift and the outside wing has more. With a high aspect (longer) wing the effect is magnified, so as the wing moves through a turn the inside automatically loses lift and drops while the outside wing gains lift and rises--instant banking, whether you like it or not. People tend to immediately and unconsciously compensate for this so their turns become tentative and less well controlled. If you turn hard with a flat wing you can irresistibly fall to the inside of the turn unless you are totally committed to the turn and have the power and balance to overcome the banking at the end of the turn.
That, of course, is the effect Laird is talking about.
Curved low-aspect anhedral wings develop most of their lift close to the fuselage, and the wingtips develop some of their lift at a vector angle away from the rider and the board. As you start a turn the inside wing loses a little lift, and the wingtip is turned more sharply to the direction of travel (remember the outer wingtip is moving faster, in a bigger circle than the inside wingtip, so the turn angle doesn't change as fast), acting like a rudder helping you turn. In a bank the wingtip on the outer wing gets a little more flat and so generates some additional lift, but the bulk lift of that side of the wing doesn't change much, so it doesn't bank out of control. in essence it's like having wingtip rudders that automatically act to tighten up the turn.
One of my experiments this summer will be with a high aspect, long wing that minimizes this effect--something on the nature of a gullwing, but with the anhedral angle starting at the root of the wing and the upward curve of the gullwing making the middle third of the wing flat to the board, with the wingtip curving back down to create the rudder effect. Might suck out loud, but I won't know until I try it.
Some very sophisticated sailplanes use different foil sections along the wing to make the wing have a characteristic the designer prefers. No free lunches in wing design, but things can be designed with a purpose before we start getting into movable flaps and ailerons.
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i rode the GL 210...and it was perfect!...like WOW this thing is good!...i think theres also an size smaller and size bigger too...didnt have time to try them out
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i rode the GL 210...and it was perfect!...like WOW this thing is good!...i think theres also an size smaller and size bigger too...didnt have time to try them out
This is not really helping, it would be good if you can give more details to actually inderstand why it is better.
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i rode the GL 210...and it was perfect!...like WOW this thing is good!...i think theres also an size smaller and size bigger too...didnt have time to try them out
This is not really helping, it would be good if you can give more details to actually inderstand why it is better.
New GL wing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GcDxYOENA&t=1s
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i rode the GL 210...and it was perfect!...like WOW this thing is good!...i think theres also an size smaller and size bigger too...didnt have time to try them out
This is not really helping, it would be good if you can give more details to actually inderstand why it is better.
New GL wing https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-GcDxYOENA&t=1s
1''32 riding !
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Just finished my 41.5" wide higher aspect wing. It has a very slight dihedral, starting at the root which gently bends, gently, almost flat, to anhedral and only dips down to pronounced anhedral in the last 4 inches , nearer to the wing tip. Used 1.5 degrees of washout. As that video shows, there does not seem to be any difficulty in bank turns. I also do not realize any drop during turns. I'm happy as well as the guys who have tried the new GL wing. Maybe GL stands for Gull wing? BTW- That video is frickin amazing!
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Looks to me like he hits the water on nearly every turn? To backup what pono says i have attached flow woolies to my foil tip when lookng at putting tip fences on - during a tight turn the inside wing completely stalls with flow heading not just 90 degrees up the wing toward the fuselage but nearly backward flow over the wing if the turn is super sharp. Add to that the natural poor stall characteristics of a high aspect wing and viola.. we can see the results
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I like the idea of anhedral starting from the root to get the bulk of the wing under water in a turn when it's easy to lift a long, high aspect wing tip out of the water. Reversing the anhedral to a dihedral section starting about half way to the tip should add some lateral stability and add a little lift as the wing curves up to flat. Then a relatively sharp curve to anhedral tip both adds some rudder action and might reduce the tip vortex. I've drawn this wing a dozen times, it just seems to have all the stuff I want. Too bad it only exists in my pointy head. I won't be easy to make with a CNC router because of all the Z-axis changes. It's going to have to start off as a pretty thick chunk of plywood, though not terribly so since the changes are relatively subtle--less Z-axis change than an M200 wing.
Container--I do most of my modelling in my head, nice to see someone actually measuring stuff. I built a "water tunnel" (like a wind tunnel, only water) for paddle testing a bunch of years ago. I'd resurrect it for this design effort but it's way too small to do anything useful with wings. Perhaps my natural water tunnel--a short bit of the Hood River that runs fairly straight and has stable bank access--can be pressed into service. I've done a lot of fin testing there over the years and I've only fallen in twice.
And yes, the inside wing in the video is crapping out on every hard turn. The guy foils like Junya--ignoring the fact that his foil just quit working and driving right through it. Great skill, but I'd like the foil to do most of the work.
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Really do not know what you guys are looking at but most of his turns are done with the board high and level. Only a few turns show the board diving to the surface. I think this is mostly due to pitch control and not necessarily loss of lift.
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Thats it supeter, a good foiler like him would never touch down in a turn. Stalling the wing means a large increase in drag which is why he looks to suddenly pitch down in a turn. It would be super interesting if someone attachsd woolies to one of these and do some savage carves behind a boat
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With a wing that wide and flat, I would imagine purposefully pitching the wing down is necessary just to keep the wing tips from breaching. Unless of course, you are riding an extremely long mast. That wing looks like a lot of fun, no matter what. As I spend more time on mine, maybe Ill learn more and apply that to my next wing.
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Really do not know what you guys are looking at but most of his turns are done with the board high and level. Only a few turns show the board diving to the surface. I think this is mostly due to pitch control and not necessarily loss of lift.
Watch the video full screen and look at the mast and board during each hard turn. He's overcoming the loss of lift because he's really good and moving fast, but in a turn across the face with the resultant acceleration most wings would lift the the foil and the rider would have to press down to maintain control. His inside wing is losing a lot of lift making the board drop and lean into the wave. It's fine, the wing is working very well, doing what it's supposed to do, but turning it tightly is going to make it fall to the inside of the turn. Someone with my skill level would be falling into the wave every time. I'm going to have to learn to do that. None of the wings I plan to use to make it feasible for a fat geezer to downwind are going to turn quickly, and if they do, the inside wing is going to quit working. It's just how aero works. You won't see a sailplane doing tight turns without a lot of banking. Turn a sailplane tightly with the rudder (never done, except by experts to demonstrate spins and hopefully spin recovery) and it will spin, because the inside wing loses lift and stalls while the outside wing retains lift. Flat wing two-channel R/C gliders used be able to do banked turns without ailerons because the pilots knew that kicking the rudder drops the inside wing and the turn can be completed with the elevator. If we had elevators we could do that too, instead those of us will minimal talent with creep through turns with long high aspect wings, to keep them from rolling us off.
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Don't know (nor really care) much about all the technicals or nut & bolts of what/why makes what fly however...all I really know is that this...
(https://i.imgur.com/sPUmy8K.gif)
... is freakin' incredible! :o 8) :)
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this thread has come at a good time for me... I got the unifoil 210 (albatross 210) about a week ago a and have been completely obsessed with it since. I've now used it for 4 good long sessions and what is being discussed hadnt even ocurred to me. To be honest it pumps sooooo good that for the first session I couldnt have given a monkeys how it turns. Im 70kg on a 6'0x26 custom foil board and went from breathlessly connecting one '2 for 1' a session on a Naish large to instantly doing '3 for 1s' and pumping huge distances effortlessly.
As said, I didnt notice it but there must be some truth in what ponobill is saying... he explains it in such a logical way that makes such sense that it must be true. The question is to what degree does it matter. Soooo... after reading this yesterday I thought I would make a conscious effort on turns today. At (very) slow speeds the lift in a turn is less than traditional foil so you just anticipate it by getting higher on the mast and get ready to pump out of it. However, at normal or high speed things get better.... rather than have to be heavy on the front foot to counter the lift created the feeling is more natural to surfing with balance pressure between both feet or a bit of pressure on the back foot mid way through the turn if you're getting lower on the mast. I prefer the feeling/technique... seems more natural.
Its a tiny bit less lively and reactive than a naish large in short/sharp direction changes but it does do a really nice turn. Besides thats comparing apples and oranges... I have the 175 (stealth) for turns. I think if I got braver and put in more effort(like derek in the vids) it would turn even sharper and I'm finding it more reactive with each session.
Anyway... like I said, you will not be thinking about turns for a good long while after you get one of these. You'll just be laughing about how far and effortless you can pump. I dont even need to exit a wave with speed any more... I can increase up to pumping speed/height from slow and practically on the waters surface. All ive ever been able to do is maintain the speed I had. Sometimes in chop i hit the water but it doesnt matter... just pump back up high on the mast. I barely use the paddle either.
On the mast length... I was on a 70 cm mast on the Naish and said Id never go longer. I had a choice of 75 or 65 but went 75cm because, due to the wing being flat the total depth is less than with the curved naish. I think these wings definitely want a longer mast because whilst they can turn with the tip out, I dont think you'd necessarily want to do it all the time involuntarily.
I think if you're on a prone board absolutely ripping turns and connecting waves effortlessly then you dont necessarily need one. However, if you're on a sup and have connected the odd wave and really want to get the pumping/connecting waves thing out your system then definitely have a look at the unifoil/signature/gofoil wings.
oh one last thing... at just under 70kg and having never used anything bigger than a naish large I was a bit worried about being able to handle the amount of lift. However, this is not like a big traditional wing I think... there is no 'bucking' lift, it's all very prrogressive and gradual due to the efficiency. it doesnt stray much from the angle you set it at.
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here's the same guy on the same wing on a smaller day
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw76QtdH9OI/
absolutely ripping as usual. No mid turn touchdowns that i can see.
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That is such a cool wing, it's the inspiration for my downwind ambitions. A lot of the prone surfers on Maui are using it, and while they are total pump monkeys, a lot of the time they don't seem to do much, just fly along.
Who IS that guy, he's really good. I didn't see anything odd at all in his turning in the second video except I can't believe he gets away with overfoiling that long wing. In that last wave his wingtip is breaching and the whole front wing looks to be sucking air. Faceplant for sure if that was me. That wing looks quite a bit longer than the wings Alex was playing with this winter. Everyone who tried them wanted to keep them.
I got the 90 cm Axis mast for just that reason, to give me more room to swing the tip around if I wind up with some ridiculously long wing. It's an intimidating size, I'm picturing myself carrying this across the rip-rap in the Columbia and it ain't a pretty mental picture.
I've yet to get this thing wet, I have a few more modification to do before I'm ready--like boring out the Tuttle holes to suit 8mm bolts and getting some appropriate length bolts--the only long 8mm stainless bolts I have are countersink heads. But today is probably the day.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60799776_10156504856908668_2182159749364056064_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=811ee63d6cd80cc45624a757799cdcde&oe=5D9BE08C)
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THAT'S the derek Hamasaki videos
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Anyone know if Go Foil is working on an inflatable wing surfer?
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YES! It's going to bolt right on to my aluminum foil board.
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Hi settlands. Looks like you rate the Uni-Foil. I am thinking of pulling the plug and getting one primarily for surf suping. Sounds like you would recommend the 210? I have a Gong L/XXL and a Neil Pryde Glide large. The 210 sounds like a lot of fun.
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(https://66.media.tumblr.com/e521a368292366141dfdf496a518827b/tumblr_pryq7sdTjX1r9jd16o1_540.jpg)
I've had one for a few weeks, and also rode some of the proto's when Alex was dialing them in. I was exclusively on my Iwa before and can tell you the pump out is noticeably easier. You go farther using alittle less energy pumping than what I was using with the Iwa.
When turning, you roll it then you can tighten the arc and lay into it. The Iwa you can lay into it from the beginning of your turn. I didn't find it to lose lift nor speed through the turn at all. It excellerated down hill like a wing should.
I can't advise on which size you should get as I ride a small 4'10 prone board and my specs don't really transfer to SUP. But I'm riding the medium wing (i think) and a Iwa tail.
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Looking forward to this new gl wings as I recently acquired the M200 and liking it at 80kg/177lb.
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Aloha,
The efficiency and carry jump out at me with these type of wings. Also Derek's stance. Really curious to hear if they are easier to DW with...
I'm wondering what are existing Gofoil owners going to do to get these new wings?
I'm guessing gofoil won't sell the wings as an add on, and therefore either need to sell existing foil and re-up for an entire new set, or buy an entire new foil that's incompatible with the existing foil???
I'd love to see a universal wing mount so that us foil addicts only need to buy wings instead of an entire foil anytime some new wing design comes along...
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I'm wondering what are existing Gofoil owners going to do to get these new wings?
I'm guessing gofoil won't sell the wings as an add on, and therefore either need to sell existing foil and re-up for an entire new set, or buy an entire new foil that's incompatible with the existing foil???
I'd love to see a universal wing mount so that us foil addicts only need to buy wings instead of an entire foil anytime some new wing design comes along...
Yep, good question...and if it's the former of buying all new again, that's what I'll do...buy all new from someone else who's already into the interchangeable component game. Because I'm not interesting in having to start all over again every time the "next best" mast, wing, stab, or whatever comes out.
Love the Go Foil wings...but not so much to become a rolling foil swap meet every time they come out with something new that I'd like try. :(
So, anyone want to buy a full Go Foil set with your choice of either the Maliko 200, Iwa, or Kai wing sets? Let's make a deal. ;D
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According to TJ at Big Winds in Hood River, GoFoil is selling everything ala-carte starting this summer. All the new wings and masts will be cross compatible. Old wings or old masts can still be used, but might require some sanding or shimming to work with the new generation. Sounds like they'll have the new GL wings in late July.
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Aloha,
The efficiency and carry jump out at me with these type of wings. Also Derek's stance. Really curious to hear if they are easier to DW
If they are anything like the Signature Albatross High aspect wing then I'd say more difficult to get up on foil (more effort/technique required). Once on foil they definitely pump better, but don't be fooled, your techniques has to be on point. So in short, easier to DWD if your techniques is good, harder if it isn't - no free lunches it seems.
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what size wing is derek on? is that the new IWA sized wing or the M200? The mast looks larger as well. He pumps pretty effortlessly in that vid.
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According to TJ at Big Winds in Hood River, GoFoil is selling everything ala-carte starting this summer. All the new wings and masts will be cross compatible. Old wings or old masts can still be used, but might require some sanding or shimming to work with the new generation. Sounds like they'll have the new GL wings in late July.
They'll have to push the limits on composite molding to do that. The mast pegs can be fairly precise, especially if they are ground to size (they don't look to be currently, except for cleaning up the mold marks), but the tapered holes in the wing and stabilizer will be more problematic. I helped Rod Parmenter get a new stabilizer to fit his mast yesterday, it appears to be from a new mold, maybe a new process, and it was substantially too small. Generally I prefer to test fit the parts with a little silicon grease on the mast peg so I can see where the tight areas are, and then sand the inside of the holes with coarse sandpaper glued to a properly sized stick to get rid of the high spots. In this case if I did that I'd still be sanding--the high spots were super high. I don't like to sand the mast because that makes it unlikely to fit other wings or stabs, but it was the only choice. A little time on my belt grinder and we got it to fit well. A reasonable decision since he won't be swapping stabilizers, and it wasn't an extreme amount of grinding.
But still, the previous GoFoil approach of sizing wings and stabilizers to a single mast wasn't some kind of attempt to sell more sets, it's simply a function of what is possible with the tapered peg design and composite molding. It's not really a high-precision process without machining the parts to a standard size after molding, and I'm not sure how you would do that with the tapered wing and stabilizer holes.
Silicon Grease, by the way, is magic for GoFoil fitting. If a wing or stabilizer is close enough to see some of the screw hole but a firm whack won't make the hole line up, then check the mast peg and the hole for any obvious high spots, sand a little if necessary, but then apply a little silicon grease to the peg, rub in all over, then wipe off the excess. The same firm whack will now seat the peg completely. One application lasts a very long time and won't attract grit if you wipe off all the excess. I use a thick grease intended for lubricating the rubber tracks for electric windows. If your car windows are straining you need this stuff anyway. My P.O.S. Xterra in Maui has been toasting it's window motors. I replaced the front ones but not the back--they needed to be helped to close by pushing if someone unwisely opened them. One application of grease in the rubber tracks and they zip up and down. Good stuff for GoFoil and POS cars.
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We bought Go Foils and the sets were customized by the seller to offer some combo choices that GoFoil does not currently offer. They were not matched serial numbers. The fit was way off. None of the parts fit together. On some the screw holes were a full cm apart even with major mallet (scary mallet - and then hard to separate). I returned those sets and got two matched sets. Not exactly what we wanted but close enough. All the serials matched. One light tap of the mallet and they are perfect (all wings and stabilizers). I don't mind sanding or shimming a fin to fit a box but its a different story at this price point.
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I haven't had to do this but drilling an extra hole in the tail-wing for example would NOT be the end of the world.
You could also drill from the other side, top or bottom of the assembly to match up with the internal stainless nut. If it was snug it could be all good.
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what size wing is derek on? is that the new IWA sized wing or the M200? The mast looks larger as well. He pumps pretty effortlessly in that vid.
This video says GL180 in the title...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLuznsme98k
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I'm got lucky I guess as all my Gofoil fittings fitted well and no issue whatsoever. Only take less than a minute to change wing combo to suit the conditions. My beginner foil skill, however, is the only let down :)
I have the IWA & M200 fronts with Kai & Maliko rears & 28" mast. I won't be getting the GL wings once released and will wait till I figure out how to fly.
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I haven't had to do this but drilling an extra hole in the tail-wing for example would NOT be the end of the world.
You could also drill from the other side, top or bottom of the assembly to match up with the internal stainless nut. If it was snug it could be all good.
One of the aftermarket gofoil wings has an oval-shaped hole for just that reason. Even if they managed to hold a tight tolerance the GoFoil masts are not all alike. I've seen a few folks drill extra holes. I prefer to make the parts fit. It's not that hard but it doesn't solve the underlying problem of limited precision. I'll be interested to see what they come up with. Obviously even if they manage to increase precision of the new parts that doesn't mean they will fit existing sets.
I don't know what the full range of variation is. I got a 280 wing from a friend that was quite loose. I built it up with a thin layer of chopped carbon and epoxy using my mast as a mandrel. I used a good mold release, but it didn't want to let go. I had to warm it and whale on the wing with the mast in a padded vise to get the pieces apart. A bit spooky, just before it let go I was considering resigning myself to having a permanently installed wing.
My long mast has a smaller wing plug than my 24". For that I just used a single layer of aluminum tape on a side and top. I don't know how thick that tape is, but it ain't much, and it took the fit from wobbly to firm.
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I just got a Gofoil IWA/M200/M280 set, only used the M200 till now and like it a lot.
The 3 wings fit perfectly on the mast.
I just hope the new wings will also fit on it ...
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Just finished my 41.5" wide higher aspect wing. It has a very slight dihedral, starting at the root which gently bends, gently, almost flat, to anhedral and only dips down to pronounced anhedral in the last 4 inches , nearer to the wing tip. Used 1.5 degrees of washout. As that video shows, there does not seem to be any difficulty in bank turns. I also do not realize any drop during turns. I'm happy as well as the guys who have tried the new GL wing. Maybe GL stands for Gull wing? BTW- That video is frickin amazing!
Could you post some pics. of your wing and give an update on how it rides?
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I have a dream :)
he must go foil twice a day.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/ByLRaW4jM8H/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
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i am tired after watching that clip. I dont think that I am in good enough shape to ride that foil
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i am tired after watching that clip. I dont think that I am in good enough shape to ride that foil
If I try taking it up, I should go ahead and book a date with my orthopedic surgeon.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3rsnw5TKG_Y&feature=youtu.be#dialog
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from what I see down here, some guys are out almost every day and sometimes twice a day.