Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Random => Topic started by: RideTheGlide on May 06, 2019, 10:10:06 AM

Title: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 06, 2019, 10:10:06 AM
Another name for the witness list - Manigault Newman

https://www.salon.com/2019/05/06/omarosa-manigault-newman-claims-trump-administration-destroyed-boxes-of-mueller-related-evidence/

Trump claims the Mueller report exonerates him, but doesn't want the person who wrote it to offer an opinion on whether or not that assessment is anywhere close to accurate. Even some GOP politicians who have been backing him until now disagree with his interpretation. He wants all attempts to examine his taxes, any of his businesses, potential obstruction, the millions of dollars unaccounted for by his campaign and inquiries into the overrides of decisions on security clearances all to cease based on his assessment. Claims he has had the most successful first two years of a presidential term ever. Claims the DEMs have kept him from getting anything done with their "failed coup".
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 06, 2019, 11:52:52 AM
Interesting, but it surely doesn’t matter? If you voted for Trump then you don’t care if he follows procedure, or even the law. You just want all undocumented workers thrown out of the country (and a lot of legal foreign ones too), and you want a leader who talks in simple sentences you can understand. And who is rich, to prove he is a “winner”, and tells you exactly what you should think and do, so you don’t have to think for yourself. And you think that people become president principally so they can screw expensive prostitutes for free, so you don’t care about that sort of stuff either - hell, you would if you had his money too, right?

The rest of the country already hates Trump about as much as they possibly can, and would view a trashcan elected as president a step in the right direction.

Or maybe I’m reading this all wrong...

I think that Trump will eventually implode. Do you think that once he’s not president any more he will just gracefully fade from sight? No way. He’ll be a vocal thorn in the side of whoever replaces him. And for that reason he’ll be silenced, one way or another, once he’s no longer got the cover of being president. His taxes will probably be his downfall, eventually, and he’ll end up in some gilded prison - to save the face of the US it won’t be actual prison, but in effect it will be. It’s not going to end well for this guy. He’s a mob boss, essentially, and I reckon he’ll meet the same end as all mob bosses, eventually.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 06, 2019, 02:34:45 PM
Interesting, but it surely doesn’t matter? If you voted for Trump then you don’t care if he follows procedure, or even the law. You just want all undocumented workers thrown out of the country (and a lot of legal foreign ones too), and you want a leader who talks in simple sentences you can understand. And who is rich, to prove he is a “winner”, and tells you exactly what you should think and do, so you don’t have to think for yourself. And you think that people become president principally so they can screw expensive prostitutes for free, so you don’t care about that sort of stuff either - hell, you would if you had his money too, right?

The rest of the country already hates Trump about as much as they possibly can, and would view a trashcan elected as president a step in the right direction.

Or maybe I’m reading this all wrong...

I think that Trump will eventually implode. Do you think that once he’s not president any more he will just gracefully fade from sight? No way. He’ll be a vocal thorn in the side of whoever replaces him. And for that reason he’ll be silenced, one way or another, once he’s no longer got the cover of being president. His taxes will probably be his downfall, eventually, and he’ll end up in some gilded prison - to save the face of the US it won’t be actual prison, but in effect it will be. It’s not going to end well for this guy. He’s a mob boss, essentially, and I reckon he’ll meet the same end as all mob bosses, eventually.
I just talked to a couple over the weekend that are "normally not political"  - that's a quote that I think means they don't vote regularly or pay much attention to it if it doesn't directly affect them. Recent events have then concerned enough that they said they were going to vote to oust Trump in 2020. There are still a lot of ambivalent people that if motivated enough to vote could swing it either way depending on whether they buy into the "persecuted president" story or believe as I do that Trump is an embarrassment on the world stage and a threat to democracy at home.

Yeah, I think there are prosecutable offenses being covered up. The obstruction isn't one of them; it's out in the open:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/hundreds-former-prosecutors-say-trump-would-have-been-indicted-if-n1002436

"The letter's list of signees — 418 as of Monday afternoon — includes 29 people who have served in the Justice Department under Trump and more than 100 officials who have served in the DOJ for 20 years or more."
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: rbgar on May 06, 2019, 05:27:49 PM
Deleted my posts, Typical, and you wonder why you’re loosing
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 06, 2019, 07:22:41 PM
Does the left “most on this blog” have any idea what is coming for them? I think not. Admin? pono? PDX? Area 1? RTG? et all. Liberal heads exploding. Going to be very ugly. Corruption at the very top. Do solid research. When you know what’s coming maybe you can cope better. Laugh if you can. Cheers.....
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 06, 2019, 08:34:49 PM
Rider, my prediction is that we have some more hearings and then back to biz as usual.  No one has clean hands, no “heads will be exploding”.   Barr might come back, but there is nothing to gain from him.  Mueller, even if compelled to testify, can’t testify outside the scope of his report...no bombshells either way.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: stoneaxe on May 06, 2019, 11:13:01 PM
Calling my brother liberal is funny.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 06, 2019, 11:51:37 PM
Does the left “most on this blog” have any idea what is coming for them? I think not. Admin? pono? PDX? Area 1? RTG? et all. Liberal heads exploding. Going to be very ugly. Corruption at the very top. Do solid research. When you know what’s coming maybe you can cope better. Laugh if you can. Cheers.....
What on Earth are you talking about? Please enlighten us, and share with us the source of your knowledge.

And PB a liberal? It was only a short time ago that he was (almost) dismissing the entire religion of Islam and it’s practitioners as a violence-based medieval death cult, without ever having visited a mosque, chatted to an Imam, or knowing any Muslims personally. That doesn’t sound like the actions of a liberal, does it?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 07, 2019, 03:29:24 AM
Deleted my posts, Typical, and you wonder why you’re loosing

Hi Rbgar,

You are welcome to post any political ideas that you would like so long as they are not simply insults.  Your half sentence Jerk off comments add no value.  Explain your thoughts with a few sentences.   Those will always be welcomed here.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 07, 2019, 03:32:46 AM
Does the left “most on this blog” have any idea what is coming for them? I think not. Admin?

No, I don't.  What is coming for us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPwuulUQpxw
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 06:32:09 AM
Rider, my prediction is that we have some more hearings and then back to biz as usual.  No one has clean hands, no “heads will be exploding”.   Barr might come back, but there is nothing to gain from him.  Mueller, even if compelled to testify, can’t testify outside the scope of his report...no bombshells either way.
We may not see more than the tip of that particular iceberg but there are others and in some cases he has far less control of the narrative, and his control of the narrative on obstruction is shaky at best. The taxes and business issues are the ones I think that are most likely to lead back to him personally and that he may not be able to squash.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 07:18:55 AM
With respect to his taxes, if there were indications of fraud, the IRS would have been all over it - as you know, his returns were under audit.
 
I would suspect his motivation for not volunteering his tax returns is that he is attempting to avoid embarrassment.  He might not be the rich uncle everyone thought he was.  He is not one to be shy about his achievement's but as everyone knows, he's a baby when it comes to admitting short comings.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 07, 2019, 07:41:33 AM
Democrats requested Trump’s personal tax returns under a 1924 provision of the tax code requiring the Treasury secretary to “furnish” any individual’s tax return information to the chairs of three congressional committees “upon written request.”

checks and balances, and rule of law, seem not to concern most republicans these days

scary
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 08:01:03 AM
But only if there exists a legitimate legislative purpose.

In this case "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

Clearly, the stated reasons are politically motivated.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 08:25:41 AM
But only if there exists a legitimate legislative purpose.

In this case "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

Clearly, the stated reasons are politically motivated.
Recent testimony, past and current litigation provides ample reason to look. If there is nothing amiss, why fight it? I think congress is well within their rights to investigate overrides for security clearance. When millions of dollars of campaign money are unaccounted for, I think there is an obligation for an investigation. A skeleton in every closet, it seems...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 08:37:28 AM
RTG, it seems you might be missunderstanding legislative purpose.   Legislative purpose is for congress to explore legislation (in this case tax law), and not to examine specific violations of law.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Weasels wake on May 07, 2019, 10:37:21 AM
But only if there exists a legitimate legislative purpose.

In this case "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

Clearly, the stated reasons are politically motivated.
Recent testimony, past and current litigation provides ample reason to look. If there is nothing amiss, why fight it? I think congress is well within their rights to investigate overrides for security clearance. When millions of dollars of campaign money are unaccounted for, I think there is an obligation for an investigation. A skeleton in every closet, it seems...
I find it funny that most on the left have no trust in the IRS finding anything wrong with Trump's tax returns.  So I guess they have more trust in congress (who's poll numbers are chronically in the trash can), than they do the IRS.
Also we always hear that congress has the right to do what they are trying to do, which is correct, "a duty for oversight", yep, which also goes back to the same thing, no trust in anybody but themselves, no trust in the Mueller report, no trust in the IRS.  Does the lack of trust mean they HAVE TO go down the same roads that are already well traveled?  This is why people on the right think congress is wasting their time, those things have been or are being taking care of already.  No reason to spend tax payers money on repetitive motions.
Keep feeding the beast, Godzilla is real, the next Godzilla movie will prove it this time!
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 10:52:42 AM
But only if there exists a legitimate legislative purpose.

In this case "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

Clearly, the stated reasons are politically motivated.
Recent testimony, past and current litigation provides ample reason to look. If there is nothing amiss, why fight it? I think congress is well within their rights to investigate overrides for security clearance. When millions of dollars of campaign money are unaccounted for, I think there is an obligation for an investigation. A skeleton in every closet, it seems...
I find it funny that most on the left have no trust in the IRS finding anything wrong with Trump's tax returns.  So I guess they have more trust in congress (who's poll numbers are chronically in the trash can), than they do the IRS.
Also we always hear that congress has the right to do what they are trying to do, which is correct, "a duty for oversight", yep, which also goes back to the same thing, no trust in anybody but themselves, no trust in the Mueller report, no trust in the IRS.  Does the lack of trust mean they HAVE TO go down the same roads that are already well traveled?  This is why people on the right think congress is wasting their time, those things have been or are being taking care of already.  No reason to spend tax payers money on repetitive motions.
Keep feeding the beast, Godzilla is real, the next Godzilla movie will prove it this time!

The IRS does not consider the sources of income giving a foreign government possible influence over Trump. I don't always trust the IRS but that isn't relevant in this case; they are not looking for a tax violation. They need to make sure that sources of income are not a problem even if they are reported and taxed properly.

They do trust the Mueller report in which he gave pretty clear guidance for congress to pursue the obstruction charges that he could not bring, not because of lack of evidence but because the JD could not prosecute it. The report does anything but clear Trump's name. If he thinks it does, then it would make sense for him to encourage congress to speak to Mueller.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 10:56:24 AM
RTG, it seems you might be missunderstanding legislative purpose.   Legislative purpose is for congress to explore legislation (in this case tax law), and not to examine specific violations of law.
Nope.

In requesting Trump’s tax returns, Neal is relying on a 1924 law (now found in 26 USC 6103(f)(1)), passed in the wake of scandals such as Teapot Dome, that explicitly authorizes the House Ways and Means Committee chief to obtain any taxpayer’s tax return information by asking for it in writing. The law is clear and direct, stating that the Treasury secretary “shall furnish” any information requested. The plain language places no condition on Neal’s action, says nothing about the need for any specific purpose or justification and doesn’t enumerate any circumstances under which Mnuchin may decline to comply.

Above is taken from an article by a legal scholar. You can look up the law by the listed code and it really is that plain. So whether Trump thinks they have done enough or not, a law is being broken if the tax returns are not provided and it is one that is explicitly to prevent executive over reach.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 07, 2019, 11:19:03 AM
thx RTG--saved me the research--i just read the statute itself.

NO SUCH LANGUAGE, BEAN--i know you well enough to assume you didnt invent this fallacy--but, sorry to say, you swallowed a fake news lie and regurgitated---all emboldened and underlined, which just makes the falsehood more glaring...

when you go to blanket dismiss a concept, check your facts

and this law has been invoked a dozen or so times, without any of the current republican resistance

there's a stinky turd under so many trumpian and republican stones these days--all you have to do is look--shameful--threatening the very fundamentals of our democracy

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
Neal's requirement to state his legislative purpose comes form the interpretation, at least in part, of the following provision.

Miscellaneous Provisions Section 6103.

(3) Other committees
... Any resolution described in this paragraph shall specify the purpose for which the return or return information is to be furnished and that such information cannot reasonably be obtained from any other source.

As I said above, "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

In other words, there has to be a legitimate "legislative" purpose for the request.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 12:05:10 PM
Neal's requirement to state his legislative purpose comes form the interpretation, at least in part, of the following provision.

Miscellaneous Provisions Section 6103.

(3) Other committees
... Any resolution described in this paragraph shall specify the purpose for which the return or return information is to be furnished and that such information cannot reasonably be obtained from any other source.

As I said above, "Neal predominantly grounds his request in oversight authority of the IRS, assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties."

In other words, there has to be a legitimate "legislative" purpose for the request.

That's funny. You start with "(3) Other committees" when just a little above that is a different parargaph:

(f) Disclosure to Committees of Congress
(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation
Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.


So your "other committees" crap explicitly does not apply to this situation. The committee has to be in a closed session unless Trump says that they can do it in the open (fat chance).
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 07, 2019, 12:39:57 PM
saw the language and sections myself

Bean, youre disingenuously cherry-picking the statute--hoping no one will check your "work"---credible much?

how come you dont want way and means to see trump's tax return??--such that you'll misrepresent the appropriate statute to claim access would be illegal??
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 07, 2019, 12:44:56 PM
i trust the mueller report fully, WW---

but i dont trust barr and his redacters, and his bs about mueller's report, as far as a can take a dump--

republicans dont trust that the release of the full, unredacted report will serve their interests---so theyre standing behind their excellent president!!
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 12:51:24 PM
Not trying to cherry pick Eastie.  I certainly don't know the exact foundation that Neal relied upon.

In addition to the law, there are also constitutional issues as well as case law to consider.  Clearly Neal believes it does apply, otherwise he (and his legal team) would not have provided his stated legislative purpose.

assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties[/i]
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 07, 2019, 01:12:29 PM
Clearly, any report related to a broad reaching investigation should be expected to have considerable redactions before being made public in order to avoid disclosing sensitive information related to active investigations/cases.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 07, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
Keep feeding the beast, Godzilla is real, the next Godzilla movie will prove it this time!
I hope so, that last one kind of sucked but I did find the last King Kong movie pretty entertaining.

I don't know all the details of the Mueller report stuff...really have not researched, followed or done anything more than click on a few things here or there. Lots of screaming, lots of finger pointing, lots of shit is all I see and it's everywhere so beyond knowing it's going on and what a casual observer would know...….
Ok, so this was an investigation into the 2016 presidential election and to see if there was any collusion between Trump and Russia to sway the election? Right? To check out the election and to see if Trump paid Russia to influence/rig/whatever the election?
Isn't that the bottom line of the whole thing?
So.....a couple things I have wondered.
Doesn't anyone really realize what it really says if collusion did happen?
If there was collusion to sway an election that is major embarrassment to our entire government that this was able to happen, under the watch of the former president.
I think it would actually say more about the former administration and national security, especially at that point, than it would about Trump. We already know Trump doesn't care about anyone but himself.
It wouldn't be some grandious, elaborate deal like some spy movie shit. It would go something like....Boris and Don Jr are out to lunch....Hey, we can make Hillary look worse than she does...hahhaha, really! How?..........facebook......hmmmm, interesting.....

Investigating the election. You don't think the other side didn't pull out all the stops? We already know it was shady and sneaky with the shenanigans of how Hillary got in over Bernie on the ticket with the dnc....I wonder if there was anything to stumble upon from that side?
Ohhhhhh hell no, of course not.....nothing would be there...…

Do you really wish and hope there was collusion going on in the election? That only one side is capable of shenanigans? It seems that many really hope so. I just don't get it.

Probably should be in the other thread but what is probably more broke than anything is the stupid ass two party system and nothing else even gets a fair look. The divisiveness, finger pointing, and all else it is creating especially with the onset of social media is just backing itself into a corner that it can't back out of. How did that go...…..snake eating it's tail?

I think the most interesting thing in Trumps tax returns would be how much he has contributed to Democrats over the years and how broken our taxation is for corporations and mega earners.
I don't know about this 1924 tax thing but I think it's a good thing we can't just pull someones tax returns out of thin air for all to see.....I think it's a good thing they are private.

I'm just naive and too simple I am sure.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFxN2oDKk0E
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: SUP Leave on May 07, 2019, 02:00:55 PM
My advice to the D's: TAKE THE L. If you don't like Trump figure out how you are going to beat him in 2 years.

Coordinate your platform into a popular one and get the W in 2020. Trump has enough legitimate issues that they could take him down without a bunch of irresponsible hyperbole, but just can't help themselves.

Trump is the low hanging orange fruit. The media and most of the left politicians can't get enough of "Orange Man Bad", but America is getting bored with it. Democrats are going to have to start bringing something solid to the table sooner or later. Investigations, demands for tax returns, doxing, public shaming is all but guaranteeing that only low life, corrupt, narcissists,  will ever run for office. Chasing all the best talent right into private industry where they pull the strings in anonymity from their penthouse.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 02:35:10 PM
Not trying to cherry pick Eastie.  I certainly don't know the exact foundation that Neal relied upon.

In addition to the law, there are also constitutional issues as well as case law to consider.  Clearly Neal believes it does apply, otherwise he (and his legal team) would not have provided his stated legislative purpose.

assessing whether the agency is fulfilling its duty to enforce the laws fairly against President Trump and whether to revise the laws relating to presidential tax duties[/i]
You start out saying you certainly you don't know the exact foundation, even though that has been quoted to you straight out of the code.  It was referenced in Neal's request also.

Then you start talking about case law? What case? Where in the constitution is the relevant bit you are referring to? Suddenly it is clear to you that Neal thinks these nebulous concepts you vaguely refer to apply. What laws relate to "presidential tax duties"?  The "agency" doesn't revise laws, congress does. The agency is bound by them.

I am trying hard to be polite, but your side of the debate seems to be baseless nonsense.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: TourmoSUPr on May 07, 2019, 02:56:00 PM
Bean,

If you look at section (f)(3), the first section in parenthesis states "other than a committee specified in paragraph (1)". As a result, any request under f(1) is not subject to the provisions of f(3).

Your analysis of statutory law is misguided. What I would like to know is where this interpretation of 6103(f)(1)(3) comes from?

Would you be willing to identify the source? I believe it is crucial that we know if a source is providing misleading information, no matter what side it is on.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Tom on May 07, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
Quote
Ok, so this was an investigation into the 2016 presidential election and to see if there was any collusion between Trump and Russia to sway the election? Right? To check out the election and to see if Trump paid Russia to influence/rig/whatever the election?
Isn't that the bottom line of the whole thing?

wrong. the investigation was three fold:
1) Did the Russians hack the 2016 election and to what extent? Yes they did and they did it to upset the US democratic process, to create turmoil in the US, and they preferred Trump over Hillary.
2) Did Trump or anyone else collude with the Russians? not really, they would have done it with or without Trump's help.
3) Were there any other crimes committed that were discovered while investigating the Russian investigation? Yes, there were many. Several indictments and convictions have come out already and there are some crimes that were uncovered that were outside the scope of the investigation that were referred to their respective jurisdiction.

One unanswered question is concerning obstruction. This is a two part question:
A) Did Trump try to obstruct justice? Yes
B) Since the President has 'unlimited' power to pardon, can the President be indited for obstruction of justice? Barr says no (which is why he was hired as attorney general). Congress and Muller say that the Constitution says it is with in Congress's power to determine.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 07, 2019, 03:30:42 PM
Ok, so this was an investigation into the 2016 presidential election and to see if there was any collusion between Trump and Russia to sway the election? Right? To check out the election and to see if Trump paid Russia to influence/rig/whatever the election?
Isn't that the bottom line of the whole thing?

Hi Luca,

No.  Here is the beginning of Mueller's Mandate from Rosenstein (who was directly appointed by Trump):

"By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C.
§§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and
management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the
Russian governments efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election
".

As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

That should be important to everyone who values our democracy. It also raises some questions.  Do you trust our intelligence community?  Many of us do.  Do you value our system of checks and balances including congressional oversight?  If so, investigations are a part of that.  Now we have had one.  It was initiated by a Trump appointee.  Why would congress not have a legitimate interest in that?  That is their job. 

One of the reasons that Trump fighting so hard to bury this is that in his perception this indicates that his election results are tainted by this report's determination of outside interference.  Ratings. 








Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 04:19:15 PM
One of the biggest concerns now is not allowing a precedent of vast executive over reach. If congress is going beyond the legal bounds of their power, the judiciary may intercede. If it's the opinion of the majority that congress is using their powers within the law but frivolously, then the majority can vote them out. But for the President to decide that he shouldn't be subjected to it and try to shut it down through non compliance is executive over reach. Allow that is a substantial threat to the republic. Defending the constitution, which Trump swore an oath to do, means making sure that the checks and balances are followed.  I completely understand Pelosi's concern about Trump rejecting the results of a close election if he is allowed to ignore the law without consequence.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 07, 2019, 06:31:31 PM
Thanks Tom, Thanks Admin.

I don't think I was really that far off....
"By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C.
§§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and
management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the
Russian governments efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election
".
…...

wrong. the investigation was three fold:
1) Did the Russians hack the 2016 election and to what extent? Yes they did and they did it to upset the US democratic process, to create turmoil in the US, and they preferred Trump over Hillary.
2) Did Trump or anyone else collude with the Russians? not really, they would have done it with or without Trump's help.
3) Were there any other crimes committed that were discovered while investigating the Russian investigation? Yes, there were many. Several indictments and convictions have come out already and there are some crimes that were uncovered that were outside the scope of the investigation that were referred to their respective jurisdiction.

One unanswered question is concerning obstruction. This is a two part question:
A) Did Trump try to obstruct justice? Yes
B) Since the President has 'unlimited' power to pardon, can the President be indited for obstruction of justice? Barr says no (which is why he was hired as attorney general). Congress and Muller say that the Constitution says it is with in Congress's power to determine.


As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

That should be important to everyone who values our democracy. It also raises some questions.  Do you trust our intelligence community?  Many of us do.  Do you value our system of checks and balances including congressional oversight?  If so, investigations are a part of that.  Now we have had one.  It was initiated by a Trump appointee.  Why would congress not have a legitimate interest in that?  That is their job. 

One of the reasons that Trump fighting so hard to bury this is that in his perception this indicates that his election results are tainted by this report's determination of outside interference.  Ratings
Ok.....obstruction of justice is where we are at now. I think I knew that.....maybe not.

Of course the president should not be above that..being able to be charged with obstruction of justice.

So, we are left with a redacted report to try and draw our conclusions from.
I don't think we want the redacted stuff out for all to see. I am not even sure we want all of congress to see it but we need more than a "select" few to see it.
Why did Mueller punt? I would guess the report is one or both of two things. There really isn't anything for him to do anything with or some real stuff in there that would be just as detrimental to the other side or the entire system as a whole.
Hell, I don't know.
Does the supreme court look at it? Who do we trust to look at it?
Too many conservatives there....too many liberals here.....

Do we really trust the way it seems congress seems to have become? Straight party line where no one can seem to make decisions of their own mind...tow the party line regardless.
Yeah, their constituents voted them in, they're from their party but something is just not right it seems.
Big can of worms here.

As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

Zuckerberg went before congress and said he would be more careful of the news facebook allows to be spread.
Isn't that enough?
Another big can of worms.
It is a big threat, and even trickier to deal with for many reasons.
The interference came from "news"?
Are we dealing with a freedom of the press/freedom of speach issue at the core? 
Now what?
Is this really a presidential admistration issue or a congressional issue? I see it more of a congressional issue and both of them should instill confidence to us in our elections although I guess I don't know who directs the intellgence community to do such things......congress or the president? Is that going to be made public.......what the intelligence community is doing?
Simply wonderful all the same. 
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on May 07, 2019, 06:54:49 PM
Zuckerberg went before congress and said he would be more careful of the news facebook allows to be spread.
Isn't that enough?
Another big can of worms.
It is a big threat, and even trickier to deal with for many reasons.
The interference came from "news"?
Are we dealing with a freedom of the press/freedom of speach issue at the core? 
Now what?
Is this really a presidential admistration issue or a congressional issue? I see it more of a congressional issue and both of them should instill confidence to us in our elections although I guess I don't know who directs the intellgence community to do such things......congress or the president? Is that going to be made public.......what the intelligence community is doing?
Simply wonderful all the same.
I'm going with "another big can of worms" when an individual (Zuckerberg) or their minions decide on what's "news" and what isn't...or maybe even worse, having to determine what's real, and what's not....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=cQ54GDm1eL0

 :o :(
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Tom on May 07, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Quote
Ok.....obstruction of justice is where we are at now. I think I knew that.....maybe not.

Of course the president should not be above that..being able to be charged with obstruction of justice.
Agreed, he should not be above the law, but his almost unrestricted power to pardon allows him to pardon anyone for any crime after they have been convicted, and to stop anyone for any crime from being prosecuted. So he could apply that to himself if accused. The supreme court can't override his power.

The only way to convict him of obstruction or any crime, is to wait until he is no longer President, then its a slam dunk.

But, impeachment is not a criminal court issue. Its a matter for Congressional branch, not the Judicial Branch. Three branches of government which have equal power so there is a balance of power.

Quote
So, we are left with a redacted report to try and draw our conclusions from.
I don't think we want the redacted stuff out for all to see. I am not even sure we want all of congress to see it but we need more than a "select" few to see it.

The Dems aren't asking for all to see it, just let some of the Representatives and Seniors from both parties see it.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 07, 2019, 07:09:07 PM
WoW.... this is getting really tedious. Think about it? What do the Dems have to run on?................ The Green New Deal or Biden?...Trump Russia Trump Russia. Really? Pete? Burnie? Liz? Corey? Face it....You got nothing but the hoax. Fun when it all comes tumbling down. I might cover some bets for 2020. Charity of course.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 07, 2019, 07:42:24 PM
WoW.... this is getting really tedious. Think about it? What do the Dems have to run on?................ The Green New Deal or Biden?...Trump Russia Trump Russia. Really? Pete? Burnie? Liz? Corey? Face it....You got nothing but the hoax. Fun when it all comes tumbling down. I might cover some bets for 2020. Charity of course.
You are talking about the one element not even in the title, though it has come up - Russia. You even said it twice for emphasis. Obstruction - pretty much a course plotted for congress if they want to try to prosecute it in Mueller's report. The missing millions from the campaign; that will likely not be Trump personally, but it should not be ignored. Taxes - NY may be the first entity to formally do anything about that; we only have some vague testimony about federal evasion. Business - aligning politics with your personal business interests is a crime. Over riding security clearance failures to appoint people to positions they should be disqualified from is something that should be subject to congressional oversight. Executive over reach by choosing to ignore the rights and powers of congress is breaking his oath to protect the constitution; he violates it if he sees fit.

IMO, the last one is the scariest. Even if you agree with him and think that it's a waste of time and resources to investigate, letting him rule by proclamation is unconstitutional and a step down the road toward a strongman dictatorship.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 07, 2019, 08:34:39 PM
What a bunch of bs. You don’t even believe your own bull shit.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: pdxmike on May 07, 2019, 10:01:34 PM
What a bunch of bs. You don’t even believe your own bull shit.
Rider--you're out of line--again.  If this is all too tedious for you (your word), or too difficult to keep up with or understand, step away.

Remember your last comment to me?    "It must suck to be as dumb as you."  There's no place for that here.  Getting another of your comments deleted should have been a clue for you.  Following up your hostile digs at people with an inane comment ending in "cheers" doesn't excuse you.

Everyone else is managing to have reasonable conversations here.  Comment like an adult or keep quiet.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2019, 01:55:02 AM
Well said, pdxmike.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: LBsup on May 08, 2019, 02:20:34 AM
Well said, pdxmike.
+1
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 08, 2019, 03:20:17 AM
The 10 years of Trump tax information that was released last night by the NYT explains why Trump is refusing to release his returns. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auOsePOm-SI
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 03:42:45 AM
without daddy's dough, trump would be in the gutter, where he belongs

only good deal he ever "did" was when his daddy teed up the hyatt deal in NYC--all the rest are fails--business-wise? deal-wise? trump is a proven moron..........

got a problem with that? educate me---and i mean deals, not trump's invented crap he's done for tv---he's made some money there, basking in the fraud that he's a solid businessman

show me just one blockbuster win in any sort of real business---help!!! daddy!!!! 

but without daddy's tax fraud money handouts???  fuggedafrikkinboutit

 L O S E R !!!!

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 03:50:51 AM
Just to set the record straight, I absolutely do believe what I posted prior to Rider's comment questioning my conclusion as well as my confidence in it. I think Trump tested the waters on Sunday, retweeting and then restating the idea that some of his term was "stollen". If he is able to shutdown the investigations and is subsequently defeated in 2020, I would not be the least bit surprised if he tries to avoid stepping down by questioning the results with little or no evidence.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2019, 04:41:23 AM
Ok, so it finally may be that something will stick with Trump, and sure enough it’s taxes, the Achilles heel of any fraudster.

It’s a remarkable article:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

But I’m puzzled why the UK press haven’t picked it up yet. Could it be that they want to do some more fact checking before they run with this? It would seem to me to be the biggest Trump story of his presidency, since not only does it show him to be a bad businessman (indeed, just about the worst in the whole USA, in terms of losses), but also there’s this worrying big wedge of money which suddenly appears in his accounts, where we don’t know where it came from. So I’m puzzled why the British press are slow off the mark with this.

But if it’s true, it’s no wonder the Russians wanted him POTUS. Do you imagine that they didn’t know this stuff already? Who better to bankrupt the US than the worst businessman in the whole country? You couldn’t make it up.

And this comes just one day after Trump gets his highest approval ratings.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 05:04:23 AM
Depends on what you consider the UK press. the Independent can be "out there" sometimes. they picked it up:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-tax-returns-released-figures-business-losses-income-a8903946.html

This has been pretty well known, just not so meticulously documented.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2019, 06:07:54 AM
Ah yes, they are all going with it now. It looks like they may have been waiting for a response from Trump. They do try to be as impartial as they reasonably can.

Trump: billion dollar losses were 'for tax purposes' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48201786
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 06:43:01 AM
This has been pretty well known, just not so meticulously documented.

Keep in mind that this is from 1985-1994 and not what congress is currently demanding.  So, the headlines are a bit misleading to say the least.

In order to appreciate the significance of the $1.17b in losses accumulated in that time frame you have to know a little about the tax law and understand the effect of timing differences.  In short, the losses should have turned around at some point and are not an indication of financial performance in any given year.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 08, 2019, 08:06:07 AM
Through this history Trump bankrupted six businesses.  Having been given hundreds of millions of dollars, he could not have done worse.  No one rational buys that this chain of failures was intentional.  He wanted so desperately to be viewed as a strong businessman but failed time after time.  In doing so he left a wake of creditors, contractors and workers to foot his unpaid bill.  Using others to prop up his facade.  He is doing exactly the same with America now.  Drive up the debt and stick us all with the bill. 

Keep in mind that these new NYT article docs are official IRS documents.  This is the legacy of Trump's business acumen.  Anyone else would produce records to contradict these documents but Trump is in a position where he cannot.  They would only show further history of the same.  So much for the Art of the Deal.  This is now how businessman Trump will be remembered.


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 08:08:13 AM
This has been pretty well known, just not so meticulously documented.

Keep in mind that this is from 1985-1994 and not what congress is currently demanding.  So, the headlines are a bit misleading to say the least.

In order to appreciate the significance of the $1.17b in losses accumulated in that time frame you have to know a little about the tax law and understand the effect of timing differences.  In short, the losses should have turned around at some point and are not an indication of financial performance in any given year.

We have some hard data and some speculation which varies widely and is of little value. You speculate that other decades made up for that and I speculate that it's a life long pattern. There is some speculation that if current outstanding liabilities were called in at face value he might not even have a positive net worth. There is a little data behind that theory, just not definitive proof. What's the data behind your speculation?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 08:23:26 AM
You speculate that other decades made up for that...

No, not necessarily.  It could be a compination of burning his inheritance and other people’s money (loans, etc.) 

In fact, as I've said before, it's entirely possible that DT would be embarrassed to disclose his more recent returns.

Make no mistake, the issue here (for congress) is not so much whether DT is fiscally solid as it is to determine illegitimate sources of income.

Regardless, there is only so much to glean from tax returns.  If they are produced, congress will surely request additional discovery –where does it end?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 08:27:39 AM
Through this history Trump bankrupted six businesses.  Having been given hundreds of millions of dollars, he could not have done worse. 

Or, you could say he did alright (President, TV star, enviable lifestyle) despite all his shortcomings… ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 08, 2019, 08:33:32 AM
Through this history Trump bankrupted six businesses.  Having been given hundreds of millions of dollars, he could not have done worse. 

Or, you could say he did alright (President, TV star, enviable lifestyle) despite all his shortcomings…


Would you accept that gold plated fame on the suffering of others?  I know that I would not.  You idolize a con.  I find it hard to believe that you or anyone else would envy Donald Trump's lifestyle.  It looks like a living hell to me.  I guess we differ there.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 08:40:32 AM
...It looks like a living hell to me...

On that we agree for sure...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 08:41:38 AM
bean, i see nil misleading from the ny times headline--pls quote the headline you describe as misleading and explain--or this is just vacuous garbage throwing---it'll take with trumpians who dont want to know facts (and dont read)  that make their dear leader look bad--unfair headlines!!---puhleeeze

also, seems youre cherry-picking again----like did you read the same ny times piece i did?---couldnt be more clear in its citation of continual business blundering and costly never-recovered losses---again, for those trumpians who wont read the piece, your take is comforting, but it's simply wrong, and seem intentionally misleading--unless, maybe you didnt read the piece either??

not sure why you continually seek to mislead, with lousy minimal explanation, in ways clearly designed to protect trump from compromising info and developments

it ends when trump and his pack of criminals have been thoroughly investigated---something youre trying to argue shouldnt happen---and if ive got that wrong, pls elaborate in a real reasonably-explained fashion--spare the loaded questions etc etc

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2019, 08:43:21 AM
You speculate that other decades made up for that...

No, not necessarily.  It could be a compination of burning his inheritance and other people’s money (loans, etc.) 

In fact, as I've said before, it's entirely possible that DT would be embarrassed to disclose his more recent returns.

Make no mistake, the issue here (for congress) is not so much whether DT is fiscally solid as it is to determine illegitimate sources of income.

Regardless, there is only so much to glean from tax returns.  If they are produced, congress will surely request additional discovery –where does it end?
Why should it end? He’s the President of the USA fer chrissakes! If you stand for that position then you cannot expect to be hiding secret dealings. If you don’t feel that you’d stand up to scrutiny, then don’t stand for POTUS, it’s that simple.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 08:54:28 AM
You speculate that other decades made up for that...

No, not necessarily.  It could be a compination of burning his inheritance and other people’s money (loans, etc.) 

In fact, as I've said before, it's entirely possible that DT would be embarrassed to disclose his more recent returns.

Make no mistake, the issue here (for congress) is not so much whether DT is fiscally solid as it is to determine illegitimate sources of income.

Regardless, there is only so much to glean from tax returns.  If they are produced, congress will surely request additional discovery –where does it end?
Where does it end? That line from the GOP is ridiculous IMO. They act like Mueller found nothing, despite all the prosecutions/convictions and the clear evidence of obstruction that the DOJ is prevented from charging Trump with, but as Mueller noted, congress could pursue. As far as income that may violate the Emoluments Clause found in Article 1 of the Constitution, it really hasn't begun and they are already acting like slowing DEMs down by delays and possible obstruction makes the DEMs guilty of hounding Trump for purely political reasons. So it seems that the sentiment is that since he has been successful at stonewalling the inquiries for long enough for people to get tired of hearing about it, the DEMs should just drop it and accept that he can do whatever he wants without consequence. Do you really not understand how dangerous it is for any branch to have that much power?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 08:59:50 AM
not sure why you continually seek to mislead, with lousy minimal explanation, in ways clearly designed to protect trump from compromising info and developments

Do I?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 09:00:43 AM
Do you really not understand how dangerous it is for any branch to have that much power?

You mean congress?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 11:25:28 AM
yes, you do--as i have explained--and you explain nil, as usual--just your loaded quizzles and puzzlers, as now

say what you want to say and explain

and lose the mischaracterizations of what's readily read by those who care to read

if your cred matters.............

so funny that trump and supplicant barr claimed that mueller rpt exonerates, and now they want the report and any supporting evidence rendered unavailable for public (or private, congressional committee) consumption based on "executive privilege" -- and repubs just stand there licking chops over their tax breaks



Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 11:40:38 AM
and bean--

re your claims:

what headlines were misleading? in the linked ny times story that this is all about?? they seem spot on to me.... but your claim??--explain.....

"In order to appreciate the significance of the $1.17b in losses accumulated in that time frame you have to know a little about the tax law and understand the effect of timing differences  .  In short, the losses should have turned around at some point and are not an indication of financial performance in any given year."

please explain "the tax law and (help me) understand the effect of timing differences"--my wheelhouse--because trump's losses through that period were all unrecoverable--anything but bad quarters/years--blundering dumb initiatives resulting in total loss--all clearly explained in the nytimes piece linked--and the carryfwds are simple everyday tax stuff--one failed biz after another--all abandoned shortly thereafter--timing differences? tax law?  whah??

sounds like more unsubstantiable pro-trump garbage tosses for those who dont know what youre talking about---feels good to a poorly read trumpian tho!!   

yeah--fake headlines   

yeah---he made all that money back--tax stuff is complicated

find a dumpster for that crap

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Tom on May 08, 2019, 11:45:10 AM
If got a question for you Trump supporters/defenders. If Trump stood in the middle of 5th avenue and shot somebody, would you still support him?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 12:03:15 PM
Do you really not understand how dangerous it is for any branch to have that much power?

You mean congress?
You obviously know I do not. Congress is operating within their legislated powers. I would agree they sometimes make poor choices in when to use what powers and how to exercise them, but they are not exceeding them. Trump is trying to disable a check from the checks and balances because he doesn't like it.  That's not how it is supposed to work.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 08, 2019, 12:04:40 PM
Hi Tom....I think that train left the station a few months ago. Try to keep up. 8)
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 12:04:50 PM
...trump's losses through that period were all unrecoverable--...

Loss carryforward...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 12:09:38 PM
Do you really not understand how dangerous it is for any branch to have that much power?

You mean congress?
You obviously know I do not. Congress is operating within their legislated powers. I would agree they sometimes make poor choices in when to use what powers and how to exercise them, but they are not exceeding them. Trump is trying to disable a check from the checks and balances because he doesn't like it.  That's not how it is supposed to work.

I'm happy to see that you are at least considering the possibility RTG.

I don't see my self as a Trump supporter, I'm more concerned with the process.  In this instance, I see Congress attemptig to step into the role of prosecutor.  And please keep in mind, this is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Tom on May 08, 2019, 12:45:53 PM
Hi Tom....I think that train left the station a few months ago. Try to keep up. 8)

does that mean no?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 01:36:32 PM
...trump's losses through that period were all unrecoverable--...

Loss carryforward...

"and the carryfwds are simple everyday tax stuff"--did you read my post??

youre kidding right?

explain what loss carryfwds have to do with total unrecoverable loss from failed abandoned business initiatives?  how is that complicated?

explain yourself or it's clear youre spewing BS you simply dont understand, in defense of trump's business acumen, hoping noone else understands so your trump support is let stand--

but no,  your tax comments and those about the unfair headlines are just garbage--or explain otherwise







Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 01:40:05 PM
...trump's losses through that period were all unrecoverable--...

Loss carryforward...

"and the carryfwds are simple everyday tax stuff"--did you read my post??

youre kidding right?

explain what loss carryfwds have to do with total unrecoverable loss from failed abandoned business initiatives? you think he planned all those failures? to offset some future "win"--cmon--youre too smart to throw that garbage--and how is are tax loss carryfwds complicated?

explain yourself or it's clear youre spewing BS you simply dont understand, in defense of trump's business acumen, hoping noone else understands so your trump support is let stand--

but no,  your tax comments and those about the unfair headlines are just garbage--or explain otherwise

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 08, 2019, 01:45:22 PM
like i said, bean, you do.....

"not sure why you continually seek to mislead, with lousy minimal explanation, in ways clearly designed to protect trump from compromising info and developments"

crap like "but the headline's misleading"  or "it's too complicated to explain but there are complicated tax issues that make this story not so simple"

what a joke--trump has been a continual business failure--who would be in the gutter were it not for his very rich daddy-- and the nytimes piece is clear and accurate, and not complicated to anyone who cares to read it

anyone doubt me? read the piece linked above
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 08, 2019, 06:25:59 PM
...barr claimed that mueller rpt exonerates...

No
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 08, 2019, 07:18:39 PM
Tax investigation looks like it is about to get a big boost...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/05/trump-new-york-state-tax-returns
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2019, 09:17:17 PM
Hi Admiral.... You really are a joke. Typical Trump hating lib that can’t stand opposing views. Are you the Guy in Mosier that has all the old funky signs in you’re yard? I know it’s your site and you can do what you want. That’s the American way. Right? So when you start deleting posts because YOU find them offensive, it’s time for me to leave. I’ve lived in the area for 25 years and have lot’s of friends. Count on me to badmouth your site if it ever comes up. It won’t because you have about zero following. Cheers....
I can see why you like Trump so much. Your use of social media is very similar. Similar temperament, style of argument, and attention to detail, too.

The cultural influence of Trump has been substantial that it’s going to seem almost odd when the next POTUS isn’t personally tweeting every thought that crosses his (or her) mind. I wonder if Trump would still be prez if Twitter had never been invented.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 10, 2019, 02:53:14 AM
...barr claimed that mueller rpt exonerates...

No

perfect, bean, you found one semantic flaw in my comment---and that's youre add to the discussion---do you have an opinion? pls express and explain--or, whatever--keep trolling around  for semantic flaws
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 10, 2019, 04:28:30 AM
That’s not an insignificant statement in this conversation and certainly not semantics.

You might disagree with my opinions, and I respect that.  But, in this case, you’re simply misstating fact. 

I’m going to say it again, I’m not so much concerned with DT, I’m more concerned with the breakdown and the politicizing (by both sides) in this process.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 10, 2019, 04:47:21 AM
For once I find myself somewhat agreeing with you , Bean. I found it significant that even Barr's first short summary, which I thought was a whitewash, did not try to use to report to totally exonerate/absolve. He downplayed Mueller's encouragement for continued investigation but did not deny its existence.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 10, 2019, 11:50:19 AM
bean, you dont express opinions--you critique those of others and dont offer your own or, meaningfully, how you arrived at actual opinions

i am a securities trader and i consume the opinions of many researchers--i rarely trade as recommended, but i find big value in offered explanation and logic, which contributes to formation of my own opinion and, often, a trade idea, often different from that reco'ed by the researchers i read

and exoneration, tho not a word barr used (that i am aware of), has been used infinitely by repubs

but critically, you neglect to explain the bad headlines and the complicated tax stuff--and much of what you quip as fact, but which proves to be otherwise----if my semantic error is germane, what of your disproven claim of unfair headlines in the linked nytimes piece??
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 10, 2019, 02:22:15 PM
...unfair headlines in the linked nytimes piece??

It doesn't really matter, and in this case, it truly is semantics, but I did say "misleading headlines".  The piece was run at a time when the entire nation was awaiting "news" on DT's finances and they chose to recycle "facts" form the 80's and 90's. 

With respect to the tax law, the issue was whether an inference could be drawn on DT’s personal finances based upon the financial information reported in the media.  In my opinion, the tax timing differences makes this impossible without additional information.   



Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 12, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
failed. abandoned businesses are what they are, tax losses or not--and trump's been a continual failure with most everything he's been involved with-

without daddy dough he's just a loudmouthed fool--except we would never have heard of him, however loud

bean, what's your opinion of trump's continual characterization of himself as a brilliant highly successful dealmaker and businessman??
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 12, 2019, 02:09:25 PM
Headlines in question:

"Decade in the Red: Trump Tax Figures
Show Over $1 Billion in Business Losses

Newly obtained tax information reveals that from 1985 to 1994, Donald J. Trump’s businesses were in far bleaker condition than was previously known."

Nothing misleading in these headlines--they describe the content of the piece quite accurately--not sure why you seek to misrepresent that they are misleading?? and then, when questioned, launch this:

"The piece was run at a time when the entire nation was awaiting "news" on DT's finances and they chose to recycle "facts" form the 80's and 90's."

I guess youre just moving on from the misleading headlines claim. And no, no "recycling of facts from the 80s and 90s as you claim"--new stuff, just like the headline says:

"Newly obtained tax information reveals that from 1985 to 1994, Donald J. Trump’s businesses were in far bleaker condition than was previously known."

Not sure why you dodge around like this. is it to attempt to temper negative Trump press?

Seems disingenuous.


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 12, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
Anyone else notice the irony in complaining that something about Trump might be misleading?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 12, 2019, 11:47:09 PM
Trump tweets, in respect of the trade war with China, "We will be taking in tens of billions of dollars in tariffs from China. Buyers of product can make it themselves in the USA (ideal), or buy it from non-tariffed countries."

Do you think it’s actually possible that he thinks that China is paying the tariffs, rather than the US population?

Not that he’s wrong to try and do something about China’s restrictive trade practices. But it occurred to me that maybe he isn’t knowingly lying about the tariffs, he’s actually just so dim a businessman that he doesn’t understand.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 13, 2019, 03:15:02 AM
Trump tweets, in respect of the trade war with China, "We will be taking in tens of billions of dollars in tariffs from China. Buyers of product can make it themselves in the USA (ideal), or buy it from non-tariffed countries."

Do you think it’s actually possible that he thinks that China is paying the tariffs, rather than the US population?

Not that he’s wrong to try and do something about China’s restrictive trade practices. But it occurred to me that maybe he isn’t knowingly lying about the tariffs, he’s actually just so dim a businessman that he doesn’t understand.

Fortunately, the media has been doing a bit better there in the last week. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/10/opinion/trump-tax-china-tariff.html

Trump’s Tariffs Are a New Tax on Americans
President Trump is undermining the credibility of his trade policies by falsely claiming that China is paying the bill.


Trump has just found another area where a tiny bit of knowledge is involved. So, he correctly assumed that through repetitive misinformation he would be able to blur the lines for many. 

He has held back on tarrifing (most) finished consumer products so far which has helped maintain this blur.  Should cellphones, SUP's and the likes get hit (as he is threatening with a 4th trenche) then that would become more apparent.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2019, 04:51:12 AM
Interesting. I don’t understand how these tariffs fit with the “ultra-capitalist” US economic model. Protectionism and widespread taxes on goods sounds to me more like a SOCIALIST kind of policy :)

But it could be a nice earner for the US government. What is Trump going to do with the money raised from US consumers and businesses? Build the wall? :)

From that NY Times article:

“One of the studies concluded that the cost of the tariffs has fallen disproportionately on the parts of the country that have supported Mr. Trump most strongly, in part because China and other nations subjected to tariffs have targeted their retaliatory tariffs at agricultural products and other goods produced in those parts of the country”.

This was exactly what was predicted would happen by economists here in the UK (and no doubt the US) when Trump said what he intended to do.

The parallels between your “Trump situation” and Brexit here in the UK keep getting stronger and stronger. Here, the people who voted most strongly for Brexit are those who (a) are poorest, and whose incomes are most vulnerable, and (b) will be most economically disadvantaged by Brexit. It really is remarkable how easy it is to get people to vote against their own best interests.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 13, 2019, 05:09:47 AM
bean, what's your opinion of trump's continual characterization of himself as a brilliant highly successful dealmaker and businessman??

He appears to be afloat, although I would not be surprised to find that he is in financial distress.  But that’s the point, there isn’t sufficient financial data to say one way or another.  We can only speculate.

Again, I’m not arguing for DT, I’m expressing my opinion on how I feel the media is reporting on politics in general by mischaracterizing certain facts.


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 13, 2019, 05:30:54 AM
Another: https://www.yahoo.com/news/news/white-house-expects-retaliation-china-over-tariffs-135959830--finance.html

This is another area where under-considered notion will have long term negative impacts on the US.  The US makes up 19% of China's revenue.  Substantial, of course, but far from their whole game as Trump seems to think.  China is long term.  They aren't going to be swayed by Trump's changes of mood.  They know how important China is to the US and they are willing to let that become apparent over time if need be.  They announce retaliatory tariffs today.  Trump will likely end up worse off than he began and then announce another victory (and that would be a good outcome at this point).  Super.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 07:11:28 AM
bean, what's your opinion of trump's continual characterization of himself as a brilliant highly successful dealmaker and businessman??

He appears to be afloat, although I would not be surprised to find that he is in financial distress.  But that’s the point, there isn’t sufficient financial data to say one way or another.  We can only speculate.

Again, I’m not arguing for DT, I’m expressing my opinion on how I feel the media is reporting on politics in general by mischaracterizing certain facts.
A lot of big losses were with other people's money mixed with his, which gets a little dicey when it comes to taxes. There is some speculation (based on information that can only be confirmed if all lenders provide records) that he is under water right now, which is basically broke if the paper work ever catches up with him. Who a government official owes money to is a big deal from a legal standpoint, so the investigations into that are not purely partisan. The GOP should want to clear him as badly as the DEMs want to impeach. Some of this is my opinion and belief that the information on loans has a high likelihood of being true.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2019, 07:38:17 AM
Becoming US president to avoid imprisonment? Well, that’s a novel approach - but maybe not in banana republics.

Admin is right about China, IMO. You won’t win a straightforward slug-out with them. They have little regard for the suffering of their own population, so will be able to plumb depths that Trump could not. There is certainly a problem for the US (and other countries) to solve. But the answer would be to get the whole international community behind a particular well-considered strategy, and approach it that way. The consensus of the experts as regards conventional trade wars seems to be that no-one ever “wins”. Everyone loses.

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: krash on May 13, 2019, 08:06:23 AM
All total crap, nothing will happen, and we will never see his tax returns as he will always be under audit.

If they were to review the tax returns of every billionaire they'd all have skeletons and they all use every loop-hope or rule to their advantage as they should at our expense.

The China deal really suz it really is a tax on the American citizen it will hurt us more than China... pretyt much any technical device we use is made in China, including the service providers like ATT/VeriZon/Sprint where do you think the equipment they use to provid us with internet, tv, and cell phone servcie from...
Thanks mr president for the 2% tax relief, but I can;t afford a 23% hit on all the products I purchase.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2019, 09:12:27 AM
You’d be a bit nervous right now if you were a US SUP retailer who sells boards or paddles made in China...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Weasels wake on May 13, 2019, 09:53:27 AM
You’d be a bit nervous right now if you were a US SUP retailer who sells boards or paddles made in China...
We'd all be a bit nervous if the dems rolled back the tax cuts, and added more taxes for their socialistic proposals.  That would hurt the US economy quite a bit more, with no end game at all.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 10:15:49 AM
You’d be a bit nervous right now if you were a US SUP retailer who sells boards or paddles made in China...
We'd all be a bit nervous if the dems rolled back the tax cuts, and added more taxes for their socialistic proposals.  That would hurt the US economy quite a bit more, with no end game at all.
An opinion based on? ??? The US economy has had more success under heavy taxation for the wealthy and corporations than without it. A rising tide doesn't lift all boats; some are anchored plus the poor folks who can't afford a boat find themselves treading water at best.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 13, 2019, 10:23:54 AM
An opinion based on? ??? The US economy has had more success under heavy taxation for the wealthy and corporations than without it. A rising tide doesn't lift all boats; some are anchored plus the poor folks who can't afford a boat find themselves treading water at best.
I not so sure about having more success with that model but we can sure see from a recent exposure of 10 years of tax returns that taxing corporations and the wealthy is a reliable way to generate dollars into the system.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 10:39:29 AM
An opinion based on? ??? The US economy has had more success under heavy taxation for the wealthy and corporations than without it. A rising tide doesn't lift all boats; some are anchored plus the poor folks who can't afford a boat find themselves treading water at best.
I not so sure about having more success with that model but we can sure see from a recent exposure of 10 years of tax returns that taxing corporations and the wealthy is a reliable way to generate dollars into the system.
I depends on who is defining success:
Altogether, corporate America has announced more than 140,000 job cuts since the 2017 Republican Tax Act passed—nearly 87,000 shed by Fortune 500 companies alone—while sharing just 9 percent of its $76 billion tax windfall in the form of wage hikes and one-time bonuses. But to quibble over jobs and wages would be to entirely miss the point. Wealthy shareholders like me? We’re doing great, thanks to an astonishing $480 billion (and counting!) in stock buybacks announced since the Tax Act’s passage—more than 68 times the return to workers. By that metric, the tax cuts are working exactly as intended.

Source: https://prospect.org/article/want-expand-economy-tax-rich

Goes on to say:

To be clear: There is simply no empirical evidence or plausible economic mechanism to support the claim that cutting top tax rates spurs economic growth. Zero. Zilch. Nada. When President Bill Clinton hiked taxes, the economy boomed. When President George W. Bush slashed taxes, the economy ultimately collapsed. It wasn’t until after most of the Bush tax cuts expired during the Obama administration that the post–Great Recession recovery started to pick up steam—an ongoing recovery that, as uneven as it has been, has grown into one of the longest economic expansions in U.S. history.

And then, of course, there’s Kansas.

The Kansas Experiment and the Trickle-Down Myth
In 2012, Kansas Governor Sam Brownback famously embarked on what he called a “real live experiment,” pitting pure trickle-down theory against economic reality. Unfortunately for Kansans, reality won. Kansas has dramatically underperformed its neighboring states and the nation as a whole both in economic growth and in job creation since slashing taxes on individuals and corporations to as low as zero. Compare that with California, which in 2012 elicited the usual apocalyptic warnings from trickle-downers by daring to raise its top income tax rate to a highest-in-the-nation 13.3 percent. By 2015, California had one of the fastest-growing economies in the nation. Kansas? One of the slowest.


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 13, 2019, 10:44:23 AM
i hope you read the above, WW---bc repeating the float all boats myth, is really just about repeating falsehoods

if you differ, pls explain and link
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Weasels wake on May 13, 2019, 12:05:20 PM
i hope you read the above, WW---bc repeating the float all boats myth, is really just about repeating falsehoods

if you differ, pls explain and link
Not only do I not buy that as being a reliable guarantee, I'll double down. 
All of these investigations, currently being done by congress, drastically hurts Trump's negotiations with China, they are paying just as much attention to it as we are.  Why would they want to enter a deal with Trump if they feel that he could be history?  We'd probably have a deal with China by now if the continuing witch hunt wasn't happening, which to me is the most distressing thing about it.  It's just another form of the "Resist" movement which is about as unpatriotic as you can get on so many levels.
I don't need links, I don't suck on the mainstream media with their "expert's" tit.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 13, 2019, 12:39:09 PM
I depends on who is defining success:
Altogether, corporate America has announced more than 140,000 job cuts since the 2017 Republican Tax Act passed—nearly 87,000 shed by Fortune 500 companies alone—while sharing just 9 percent of its $76 billion tax windfall in the form of wage hikes and one-time bonuses. But to quibble over jobs and wages would be to entirely miss the point. Wealthy shareholders like me? We’re doing great, thanks to an astonishing $480 billion (and counting!) in stock buybacks announced since the Tax Act’s passage—more than 68 times the return to workers. By that metric, the tax cuts are working exactly as intended.
Goes on to say:

To be clear: There is simply no empirical evidence or plausible economic mechanism to support the claim that cutting top tax rates spurs economic growth. Zero. Zilch. Nada. When President Bill Clinton hiked taxes, the economy boomed. When President George W. Bush slashed taxes, the economy ultimately collapsed. It wasn’t until after most of the Bush tax cuts expired during the Obama administration that the post–Great Recession recovery started to pick up steam—an ongoing recovery that, as uneven as it has been, has grown into one of the longest economic expansions in U.S. history.

And then, of course, there’s Kansas.
…….

I think the president gets too much credit and also too much blame for the economy. For the examples stated.....Clinton's term was at the dawn and during the internet/technology boom. The crash 10 years ago was more about a correction neeeding to be made......too much easy money out there and too much of it was bad and it had run it's course during the Obama administration and keeps on chugging.

Kansas? Well, there's no place like home and not many people want to call Kansas home. California has lot's going for it and just plain going regardless of all the taxes and regs.

I think all the economy runs in cycles and regardless, Trumps taxes show how broken the tax system is if nothing else. Why are none of the screamers who are just so happy that he is showing these losses not saying "we need to fix this bs..." instead of "Ha, see, he isn't so rich........". I think that's the real issue there. No, we shouldn't leverage corporations or high income individuals but that just not supposed to be how it works. Pay no taxes. But it seems to be how it works and really is no secret. You also know the IRS is up his ass with a microscope, especially with those losses and it appears he hasn't broken any tax rules regarding his filings but I don't know for sure nor do I know what or when this next turn in the economy is going to happen and how.

just what I think.......
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 12:40:36 PM
i hope you read the above, WW---bc repeating the float all boats myth, is really just about repeating falsehoods

if you differ, pls explain and link
Not only do I not buy that as being a reliable guarantee, I'll double down. 
All of these investigations, currently being done by congress, drastically hurts Trump's negotiations with China, they are paying just as much attention to it as we are.  Why would they want to enter a deal with Trump if they feel that he could be history?  We'd probably have a deal with China by now if the continuing witch hunt wasn't happening, which to me is the most distressing thing about it.  It's just another form of the "Resist" movement which is about as unpatriotic as you can get on so many levels.
I don't need links, I don't suck on the mainstream media with their "expert's" tit.
So though Trump may have committed criminal acts (there is much evidence to suggest he has) we might get a better deal with China if we don't investigate the crimes, so we should turn a blind eye? And Resist is unpatriotic? Opinions vary...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 12:42:57 PM
I depends on who is defining success:
Altogether, corporate America has announced more than 140,000 job cuts since the 2017 Republican Tax Act passed—nearly 87,000 shed by Fortune 500 companies alone—while sharing just 9 percent of its $76 billion tax windfall in the form of wage hikes and one-time bonuses. But to quibble over jobs and wages would be to entirely miss the point. Wealthy shareholders like me? We’re doing great, thanks to an astonishing $480 billion (and counting!) in stock buybacks announced since the Tax Act’s passage—more than 68 times the return to workers. By that metric, the tax cuts are working exactly as intended.
Goes on to say:

To be clear: There is simply no empirical evidence or plausible economic mechanism to support the claim that cutting top tax rates spurs economic growth. Zero. Zilch. Nada. When President Bill Clinton hiked taxes, the economy boomed. When President George W. Bush slashed taxes, the economy ultimately collapsed. It wasn’t until after most of the Bush tax cuts expired during the Obama administration that the post–Great Recession recovery started to pick up steam—an ongoing recovery that, as uneven as it has been, has grown into one of the longest economic expansions in U.S. history.

And then, of course, there’s Kansas.
…….

I think the president gets too much credit and also too much blame for the economy. For the examples stated.....Clinton's term was at the dawn and during the internet/technology boom. The crash 10 years ago was more about a correction neeeding to be made......too much easy money out there and too much of it was bad and it had run it's course during the Obama administration and keeps on chugging.

Kansas? Well, there's no place like home and not many people want to call Kansas home. California has lot's going for it and just plain going regardless of all the taxes and regs.

I think all the economy runs in cycles and regardless, Trumps taxes show how broken the tax system is if nothing else. Why are none of the screamers who are just so happy that he is showing these losses not saying "we need to fix this bs..." instead of "Ha, see, he isn't so rich........". I think that's the real issue there. No, we shouldn't leverage corporations or high income individuals but that just not supposed to be how it works. Pay no taxes. But it seems to be how it works and really is no secret. You also know the IRS is up his ass with a microscope, especially with those losses and it appears he hasn't broken any tax rules regarding his filings but I don't know for sure nor do I know what or when this next turn in the economy is going to happen and how.

just what I think.......
Actually a graph in the article based on actual data shows little correlation between tax policy and the economy.

Taxes were supposed to be for raising government revenue, not engineering society. Right now they are failing to do a good job of either.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 13, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
deficits, too--hell BILL CLINTON presided over one of the best econ and stock market runs in history, including record job growth

WHILE WE WERE ACTUALLY RETIRING US TREASURY DEBT....

INSTEAD OF SELLING GAZILLIONS OF TREASURY BILLS NOTES AND BONDS, AS TODAY (aftier iraq, the fin'l crisis, and trump tax handouts)THE TREASURY WAS ACTUALLY BUYING BACK DEBT---

                                                                                WITH SURPLUSES---like, where tax revenues exceed government expenditures--sounds pretty surreal, no?

and TAXES WERE HIGH TOO! while the economy grew and grew....HOW DAT HAIKU YOU?

oh, and the middle class got a lil piece of it all too

NOW--we are saddled with debt like never before--for the looong haul--all of us americans, and our progeny---but how many of you got a piece of the handout?? cuz the deficits are equally yours--

at least all that free taxcut money that fueled up those private jets didnt get into commie socialist programs---like fixing the cost of college and student debt and health care--you know, all that stuff western european countries and canada somehow afford, where we cant---hell we're having a tough time getting food stamps to our working poor full time walmart workers....

but them jets are fueled and flying---you got one WW?

and pls share your non-mainstream media sources---always interested in intelligent new information and ideas....
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on May 13, 2019, 01:36:30 PM
For those of you talking about the national debt, you might find this site somewhat interesting (https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296)...with just about every imaginable breakdown wrt it in the left hand column. Doesn't look real promising no matter how one tries to slice and dice it.  :(
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 13, 2019, 02:07:46 PM
You’d be a bit nervous right now if you were a US SUP retailer who sells boards or paddles made in China...
We'd all be a bit nervous if the dems rolled back the tax cuts, and added more taxes for their socialistic proposals.  That would hurt the US economy quite a bit more, with no end game at all.
An opinion based on? ??? The US economy has had more success under heavy taxation for the wealthy and corporations than without it. A rising tide doesn't lift all boats; some are anchored plus the poor folks who can't afford a boat find themselves treading water at best.

Can you please cite a time in US history when the US was more successful due to high taxes?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 02:34:37 PM
Keep reading, I did. I quoted an article with a couple of examples.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 13, 2019, 02:41:06 PM
Keep reading, I did. I quoted an article with a couple of examples.

I don't feel like going through this entire thread (cuz I'm going surfing now!), but are you referring to the 50's and 60's when income taxes were as high as 90%?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 13, 2019, 03:35:06 PM
It was 2 posts down from the one you replied to. No, it was more recent.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 13, 2019, 04:44:10 PM
I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe it’s just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 13, 2019, 06:05:23 PM
Keep reading, I did. I quoted an article with a couple of examples.

I don't feel like going through this entire thread (cuz I'm going surfing now!), but are you referring to the 50's and 60's when income taxes were as high as 90%?

I scanned the article and the notion that government can improve the economy by stealing and squandering the wealth of the people is absurd. The welfare state, as just one example, squanders close to 3/4 of every dollar it steals from us to pay for administrative costs, buildings, etc., etc. Humans NEED the carrot at the end of the stick, so what do you think will happen when taxes are so punitively high that the incentive to produce disappears? And what right does the state have to take what is not theirs? If you want to end deficit spending and reduce the debt then the ONLY sane and moral approach is to radically shrink the size of government - NOT grow it by feeding the beast. C'mon man, this is common sense.

I see you commenting on how Trump "must be committing crimes" in spite of the fact that they just concluded a two year $30,000,000.00 investigation that apparently said he did not. Does it matter to you that the Clinton people paid (COLLUDED with) the Russians to create the phony Steele Dossier that was used to ILLEGALLY obtain the FISA warrants so they could spy on Trump? Does it matter that this has been a coup that makes Watergate seem like kindergarten in comparison for the purposes of bringing down a duly elected president? EVEN IF YOU HATE TRUMP - THIS SH*T SHOULD MATTER TO YOU. Frankly I'm shocked that you aren't aware of this. Anyway, fasten your seat belts because there should be lots of news regarding the illegally obtained FISA warrants this week. Lets hope these bastards are tried for treason.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 13, 2019, 08:01:09 PM
Hi Magenta..... They KNOW....but they just don’t care. Pass the dub bro..... 8)
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2019, 12:25:04 AM
A large part of the problem we face is that people from different political parties increasingly disagree about the basic facts that underpin political viewpoints. Here is a good example:

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-in-the-us-climate-change-is-a-value-not-a-fact-11719459

It is hard to find a compromise position when the parties involved disagree about the basic facts, not just the interpretation of them.

Selective reporting is also to blame. We all know that it is possible to convince someone else to believe a particular position by leaving out information that would convince them otherwise, or at least would convince them to take a more moderate viewpoint. This selective reporting is happening widely in the media now. A good example is the Steele dossier furore:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html

Part of the issue in these kinds of discussions on this forum is that the Trump supporters seem surprisingly unwilling to share the source of their beliefs. Statements are made as simple fact. when there is often a rather complex backstory that might include disconfirming evidence. So I would appeal to the Trump supporters here to please follow convention, and cite the sources of the facts that you assert. Just simple weblinks like I have done here would be great. Because I think we are reading and hearing very different information, and I want to read and hear what you are. This would be in your best interests because maybe I might encounter something that might change my viewpoint. Thanks.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Area 10 on May 14, 2019, 02:13:18 AM
Here’s an interesting article that perhaps explains why in Europe, welfare is not regarded as a dirty word, but a kindness to others that repays itself economically, whereas a different view exists in the US. This article links this difference in attitude to the higher rates of “deaths of despair” in the US. A prominent view in some European circles is that Trump is a political consequence of this despair.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/28/deaths-of-despair-us-jobs-drugs-alcohol-suicide
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: yugi on May 14, 2019, 03:27:45 AM
I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe it’s just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.

It is stunning how putting information at everyone's fingertips actually just made spreading misinformation so much easier. Despite individual human's intelligence, as a pack humans still act just like sheep.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: yugi on May 14, 2019, 03:48:37 AM
...
Part of the issue in these kinds of discussions on this forum is that the Trump supporters seem surprisingly unwilling to share the source of their beliefs. Statements are made as simple fact. when there is often a rather complex backstory that might include disconfirming evidence. So I would appeal to the Trump supporters here to please follow convention, and cite the sources of the facts that you assert. Just simple weblinks like I have done here would be great. Because I think we are reading and hearing very different information, and I want to read and hear what you are. This would be in your best interests because maybe I might encounter something that might change my viewpoint. Thanks.

(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2018/02/28/Photos/NS/MW-GE557_MediaB_20180228115701_NS.jpg?uuid=659e15a6-1ca8-11e8-83b2-9c8e992d421e)
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 14, 2019, 05:34:06 AM
I like the news source chart. Most of my reading is from the green box, but I tend to quote more from the left side as the conclusion I draw is usually explained with a better argument than I can make. Interesting placement for CNN, but I agree with it even though I like CNN. They do tend to run a lot of opinionated hard news; giving both sides of the story accurately but with a more negative tone on things Trump/conservative.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 14, 2019, 07:19:51 AM
If you want to end deficit spending and reduce the debt then the ONLY sane and moral approach is to radically shrink the size of government

Under Trump we have the highest budget deficit ever for a non recession year. 

In terms of Steele etc, this has been heavily considered. Trump asked for this to be investigated by the FBI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd2DgYbqjQs
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Weasels wake on May 14, 2019, 10:21:16 AM

but them jets are fueled and flying---you got one WW?
I got an e-bike.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 14, 2019, 10:36:09 AM
I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe it’s just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.
I'm with you on this. Sometimes I wonder if I give too much credit to the human race anymore rather than not enough.
It is stunning how putting information at everyone's fingertips actually just made spreading misinformation so much easier. Despite individual human's intelligence, as a pack humans still act just like sheep.
it does and we sure seem to but not just sheep. Hyenas as well.

Saw a quote once that went something like "the sound of society collapsing is holding twitter up to your ear".

The more I see of social media and despite all it's benefits and good things the bad just seems to rise up and I become convinced it's the doom of us for many reasons. Maybe I'm just the old man whose pissed off at the radio being there and people not going out to the theater or playhouse for the evening. 

Here’s an interesting article that perhaps explains why in Europe, welfare is not regarded as a dirty word, but a kindness to others that repays itself economically, whereas a different view exists in the US. This article links this difference in attitude to the higher rates of “deaths of despair” in the US. A prominent view in some European circles is that Trump is a political consequence of this despair.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/28/deaths-of-despair-us-jobs-drugs-alcohol-suicide

Scanned the article...….just because...
I don't think anyone has an issue helping someone out who needs it. The guy who lost his job or got sick, the mom working her ass off but still barely treading water, the person who just came back from serving, etc. Lots of examples to give. With that said the issue is not that and the last line in the article you linked kind of hits on it....a helping hand and a hand out are not the same thing and there are far too many hand outs going on....multiple generations......kids being raised that this is how you live.....sit at home and collect cuz just plain lazy...
Trying to make sure it goes to the right places and isn't abused is the issue....but we all know that but I am not so sure there is a way to make that work the way it should.

The chart...(posted earlier elsewhere)...Reuters and AP at the top.....interesting. I guess that's what they are supposed to be but I seem to have seen something from one of them in the last year that made me shake my head wondering what the hell happened. Absurd the networks are right there as well. The tone of the evening news is just nothing but a drama filled half hour that also seems to resonate of social media. I can't watch without shaking my head. Some truth (for lack of a better word) in the chart but like all the news sources it categorizes it needs to be taken with a grain of salt or at the least...I don't know...an open mind? (ha!)

Steele stuff. Last week I popped into google "who has seen the unredacted mueller report" or something like that. This FISA and Steele popped up in the results or in whatever it brought me to off and on.  Most of the stories were from April I think. It was all new stuff to me for the most part. Wondered why I hadn't heard more of it. Still don't know what to think about it along with the whole Mueller report stuff and where we at with it now. Didn't take alot of time reading about it.....didn't even know what to believe of the actual results I ran across for what I was searching for.

It's a mine field out there trying to get real info....and it ain't getting any better either.

Weasel and Rider: how many times have you searched for these terms on the internet? ........
...oooffff......and you're off and running again......
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: PonoBill on May 14, 2019, 03:45:34 PM
The reason AP and Reuters pops to the top of the credibility chart is simply that they are feed sources for news organizations--not for consumption by the public: What, When, Where, Why and how. As such they have no discernible bias, and no opportunity to exercise whatever they have. Any AP or Reuters stringer who displays any is looking for work pretty quickly. Of course, there is intrinsic and extrinsic bias in everything. Some things don't get reported that should be. But all the fluff, bullshit, and provincialism get added by the news organizations.

Luca--a few days reading comments on Youtube will have you reaching for the reset button on humanity. People aren't just stupid, they're willfully ignorant and mean. There's a certain natural isolation that keeps capable and reasonably intelligent people isolated from the stunning stupidity of most people: You never have any real interaction or a conversation with someone who is really stupid unless they are related to you, and at least half of humanity is as dumb as a bag of hammers. It's the critical piece that democracy forgets about, and the reason why functioning liberal "democracies" are all at least republics. A real democracy would last a year at most.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: TallDude on May 14, 2019, 04:28:38 PM
This is my favorite world news. HHK world news. I don't hear any bias in their reporting. Though I'm sure there is a little. They let Trump blab and then quote something from the New York Times. Then they interview the Iranian leaders, which helps me some what understand what possibly the real issue is. It's my preferred perspective.... the real issue. Interestingly enough, I don't see it on that graphic.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190515_06/

I started watching it with my mother-in-law in Hawaii. She got me hooked. They really cover the world very well. I'm personally more concerned about the world than a bunch narrow minded right and left vigilantes. Concerned, look in the mirror and see what you have. Compare that to the world. Trump or Biden? That's some pretty shitting options and Bernie is just handing out free toilet paper to college students. 


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 14, 2019, 05:59:43 PM
careful, pb, youll be labelled elitist--tho i dont think you care what you get labelled

it pains me to admit, but i have a hard time differing with you---now, more than ever, people need to be smart about what media/information they consume, and they need to care about truth

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 14, 2019, 07:03:31 PM
Pono....”Feed sources for news organizations.” And that makes them unbiased? They would be fired?... you’re just joking, right? Please say you’re joking.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: pdxmike on May 14, 2019, 09:41:28 PM
Pono....”Feed sources for news organizations.” And that makes them unbiased? They would be fired?... you’re just joking, right? Please say you’re joking.
No, he didn't say the fact that they are feed sources for news organizations makes them unbiased. He didn't even say they were unbiased.  In fact, he said the opposite:  "Of course, there is intrinsic and extrinsic bias in everything."

His post makes sense, if you read what he actually wrote.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: yugi on May 15, 2019, 02:24:21 AM
The reason AP and Reuters pops to the top of the credibility chart is simply that they are feed sources for news organizations--not for consumption by the public: What, When, Where, Why and how. As such they have no discernible bias, and no opportunity to exercise whatever they have.
 …

If you look closer the top row is meant to be just that; raw feed sources.



Luca--a few days reading comments on Youtube will have you reaching for the reset button on humanity. People aren't just stupid, they're willfully ignorant and mean. There's a certain natural isolation that keeps capable and reasonably intelligent people isolated from the stunning stupidity of most people: You never have any real interaction or a conversation with someone who is really stupid unless they are related to you, and at least half of humanity is as dumb as a bag of hammers. It's the critical piece that democracy forgets about, and the reason why functioning liberal "democracies" are all at least republics. A real democracy would last a year at most.

I recommend you visit Switzerland and spend some time in remote places speaking with simple uneducated and not-so-smart people. A local café is a good place to start but you could also go further than the last village and stop and talk with locals. You’ll be shocked how informed they are on issues. With borders never far away you’ll be surprised how many can speak a foreign language so you can actually talk with many of them. If you give the people the power to vote they actually will go out and get informed. Which actually is the first step to un-dumb them.

Here’s the history and the theory
   https://houseofswitzerland.org/swissstories/history/way-modern-direct-democracy-switzerland
but, as said above, it is the effect it has on how informed Mr&Mrs DumbF#ck are as a result that is pleasantly refreshing.


A “democracy” with representatives that are paid into position by the big and powerful companies and lobbies drifts very quickly from being a true democracy. I heard Chomsky talking about that when I was 18 but now it is becoming even more extreme.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 03:12:39 AM
who are your trusted media and information sources, rider?

also---do you think it's fake news that a queens, ny storefront podiatrist, who leased his space from pres trump's father, was compelled to write up a fake diagnosis of bone spurs for draft-eligible Donald, so he could avoid military service in the viet nam war??

if you think fake, pls link trusted sources that show fakery

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 08:54:02 AM
It's ironic that if DT had served in Vietnam, he might have been "labeled" by some on the left as too stupid to avoid the draft.  Or likely worse...

I also find it ironic that you demand "sources" when you've already admitted that you regularly dismiss your own analyst reports.

Please note that the preceding was intended as lighthearted banter...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 15, 2019, 09:05:22 AM
It's ironic that if DT had served in Vietnam, he might have been "labeled" by some on the left as too stupid to avoid the draft.  Or likely worse...

or too lazy to go bankrupt 6 times
or too constipated to avoid paying taxes
or too flatulent to lose hundreds of millions of inheritance
or too daft to cheat on his pregnant wife with porn stars

We might have said those things had the opposite not been true...or maybe not.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 10:14:32 AM
i am obviously a prog dem and i would never (NOT MIGHT--I WOULD NEVER) label anyone who is patriotic enough to put life and limb on the line for our country as other than a patriot, who deserves respect for that--so there's a comment on this from the left

if the politicians who arrange war do so for nefarious or dumb reasons, that's on them--not on our boots on the ground soldiers

politicians like john bolton and trump, who avoided being drafted and serving, who now present as hawks, i call BS on--and they're trying to BS us into a war with Iran--perfect

and John Kerry? not too dumb to go to vietnam at all--kerry was a bright (yale) young patriot, who could have done as trump and bolton did, who saw the conflict over the vietnam war on the yale campus and in our society, and enlisted, to see for himself--after doing so and taking personal risk to be in the line of fire, he returned to tell the story that what we were doing there made no sense

bean, what might you say about trump's daddy's bone spurs routine? you cite irony--might there be some irony in the fact that our hawkish tough guy president fraudulently dodged the draft for the vietnam war?  any irony in trump's claim that his sexual activities were his vietnam--as tho his heroism was that he didnt get a disease?--tell that to the guys who got their balls blown off over there....how's their sexual vietnam going?

"you've already admitted that you regularly dismiss your own analyst reports"  who? whose own analyst reports? regularly? when? how bout one time? details?

and bean, whatever the chatter about whoever's "own analyst reports", which are your trusted media and information sources?

here're a few of mine--WSJ, WAPO, NYTIMES, GUARDIAN, NATIONAL REVIEW, LA TIMES, POLITICO, AXIOS--I have high confidence in facts as reported by these entities, despite that their points of view may differ from mine. but when the facts contradict my POV it informs me--i like to be informed.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 10:28:05 AM
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/26/vietnam-donald-trump-forever-war-225210

great fact-based piece on trump and vietnam---unsurprisingly it aint pretty

here's a cool tidbit:

"while a Princeton-educated lieutenant named Robert Swan Mueller III was leading a platoon of Marines in the thick of searing combat, Trump was back in his father’s office in Brooklyn"

i knew mueller had served, but didnt know he'd been a marine---whatever his politics, mueller is a standup guy---bolton? bonespurs? hmmmm

much as we have a pretty poorly educated electorate, it shocks me that people can be so conned

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: pdxmike on May 15, 2019, 10:54:30 AM
Given there are a couple hundred million people in the U.S., undoubtedly some might say Trump not avoiding the draft was proof he was stupid, although I don't know of any myself.

But there's some irony in that hypothetical example, given that Trump actually did say of McCain, "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured."  Similar sentiment to the hypothetical one, but actually said by Trump.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 10:58:22 AM
...if the politicians who arrange war do so for nefarious or dumb reasons, that's on them--not on our boots on the ground soldiers

Sadly, that's not how it was interpreted by the left for the Vietnam vet's who came home.  I wasn't even a teenager, but I'll never forget how wrong the demonstrations felt.  Of course, that historty is being revised as we speak.

Here is what you said previously,
“i consume the opinions of many researchers--i rarely trade as recommended”

Clearly, you draw your own conclusions, and that's an admirable trait.  But why then would any one waste their time providing you with additional information or sources?  To what end?  Should posts now be annotated?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 11:00:58 AM
But there's some irony in that hypothetical example, given that Trump actually did say of McCain, "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured."  Similar sentiment to the hypothetical one, but actually said by Trump.

Yes, that was inexcusable and an insult not only to McCain but also to the POW's...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: TallDude on May 15, 2019, 11:37:23 AM
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/26/vietnam-donald-trump-forever-war-225210

great fact-based piece on trump and vietnam---unsurprisingly it aint pretty

here's a cool tidbit:

"while a Princeton-educated lieutenant named Robert Swan Mueller III was leading a platoon of Marines in the thick of searing combat, Trump was back in his father’s office in Brooklyn"

i knew mueller had served, but didnt know he'd been a marine---whatever his politics, mueller is a standup guy---bolton? bonespurs? hmmmm

much as we have a pretty poorly educated electorate, it shocks me that people can be so conned
All the rich seem to endlessly find a way around law.... or at least till someone crawls under there desk.

http://tech.mit.edu/V112/N3/clinton.03w.txt.html

BTW, I would have voted for McCain in a heart beat. One candidate I actually liked.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 15, 2019, 11:51:03 AM
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/26/vietnam-donald-trump-forever-war-225210

great fact-based piece on trump and vietnam---unsurprisingly it aint pretty

here's a cool tidbit:

"while a Princeton-educated lieutenant named Robert Swan Mueller III was leading a platoon of Marines in the thick of searing combat, Trump was back in his father’s office in Brooklyn"

i knew mueller had served, but didnt know he'd been a marine---whatever his politics, mueller is a standup guy---bolton? bonespurs? hmmmm

much as we have a pretty poorly educated electorate, it shocks me that people can be so conned
All the rich seem to endlessly find a way around law.... or at least till someone crawls under there desk.

http://tech.mit.edu/V112/N3/clinton.03w.txt.html

Clinton was poor.  He went to school on scholarships and worked.  That is not to say that he did not try to avoid being drafted.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: TallDude on May 15, 2019, 12:13:49 PM
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/26/vietnam-donald-trump-forever-war-225210

great fact-based piece on trump and vietnam---unsurprisingly it aint pretty

here's a cool tidbit:

"while a Princeton-educated lieutenant named Robert Swan Mueller III was leading a platoon of Marines in the thick of searing combat, Trump was back in his father’s office in Brooklyn"

i knew mueller had served, but didnt know he'd been a marine---whatever his politics, mueller is a standup guy---bolton? bonespurs? hmmmm

much as we have a pretty poorly educated electorate, it shocks me that people can be so conned
All the rich seem to endlessly find a way around law.... or at least till someone crawls under there desk.

http://tech.mit.edu/V112/N3/clinton.03w.txt.html

Clinton was poor.  He went to school on scholarships and worked.  That is not to say that he did not try to avoid being drafted.
The Clinton's net worth is near a quarter billion. Politic's have been lucrative for them. I wonder how much Bernie makes, even if he never gets elected? Is it a business just running?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Admin on May 15, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/26/vietnam-donald-trump-forever-war-225210

great fact-based piece on trump and vietnam---unsurprisingly it aint pretty

here's a cool tidbit:

"while a Princeton-educated lieutenant named Robert Swan Mueller III was leading a platoon of Marines in the thick of searing combat, Trump was back in his father’s office in Brooklyn"

i knew mueller had served, but didnt know he'd been a marine---whatever his politics, mueller is a standup guy---bolton? bonespurs? hmmmm

much as we have a pretty poorly educated electorate, it shocks me that people can be so conned
All the rich seem to endlessly find a way around law.... or at least till someone crawls under there desk.

http://tech.mit.edu/V112/N3/clinton.03w.txt.html

Clinton was poor.  He went to school on scholarships and worked.  That is not to say that he did not try to avoid being drafted.
The Clinton's net worth is near a quarter billion. Politic's have been lucrative for them. I wonder how much Bernie makes, even if he never gets elected? Is it a business just running?

The Clinton's are wealthy now, for sure.  That didn't get Bill out of serving, however.  He was vocally and strongly against that war.  He are his words from back then, "https://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/clinton.htm"

Here is Bernie talking about his wealth:

https://youtu.be/Ox9IT0AKaTo
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 12:42:37 PM
<<Here is what you said previously,
“i consume the opinions of many researchers--i rarely trade as recommended”

Clearly, you draw your own conclusions, and that's an admirable trait.  But why then would any one waste their time providing you with additional information or sources?  To what end?  Should posts now be annotated?"">>

not sure your point, bean--i read lots. i consume logic and facts provided by writers, as they support their opinions. i value learning of the facts and logic they share, whether or not i ultimately subscribe to their point of view. i learn this way--and i formulate my own points of view this way.

and no, posts shdnt remotely be annotated--in case youre not just being facetious--but if someone cites something as fact, that seems pretty questionable, and it is questioned, seems reasonable, in the interest of intelligent discourse, that the source for the alleged fact be requested and provided. that clear things up for you??

you seem into irony....

what about the irony of bolton and trump--two known draft dodgers--talking all tough with war and such??  ironic??

what about the irony that bob mueller, a princeton grad who could have dodged the draft just as easily as bone spurs and bolton, served on the ground with a platoon he ran in vietnam??  no answer??

what about trump's vietnam? where he was "lucky to survive without getting an STD"??  no comment on the poor kids who went to vietnam and had their balls blown off??

whatever--cherry pick away............
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
...if someone cites something as fact, that seems pretty questionable, and it is questioned, seems reasonable, in the interest of intelligent discourse, that the source for the alleged fact be requested and provided. that clear things up for you??
Do you make those demands in your face to face conversations?  Of course not...

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 01:13:47 PM
of course i ask (demand? mischaracterize as you wish) for a legit source where someone presents likely fallacy as fact---whatever the venue---but there you go again trying to switch focus to some quibble or other

what of bob muellers service in the marines after princeton?? vs bolton and trump's draft dodging?? who's the standup guy here?

what of trumps "vietnam"??--where he survived slutting around in the 60's and 70's--purple heart for our dear old bone-spurs??

what of trump's insult of gold star families--who lost a child in war??

you good? cool....

bring on the next quibble....

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 15, 2019, 01:38:10 PM
Beam me up, Scotty!
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 01:38:35 PM
what of bob muellers service in the marines after princeton?? vs bolton and trump's draft dodging?? who's the standup guy here?
what of trumps "vietnam"??--where he survived slutting around in the 60's and 70's--purple heart for our dear old bone-spurs??
what of trump's insult of gold star families--who lost a child in war??
Look, DT is not a nice guy and no question he's had some really awful gaffs.  With respect to our warriors, his comments about McCain and his conduct with respect to the gold star families speak for themselves.  His outward actions have been deplorable in that regard.

But, how do you think BC would have treated Mueller upon his return from Nam?



Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 01:39:24 PM
Beam me up, Scotty!

Screw that, put one right between my eyes...please ;D
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 01:54:01 PM
there you go all rhetorical again.

so you first:

bean, how do you think BC would have treated Mueller upon his return from Nam?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
gaff--an unintentional act or remark causing embarrassment to its originator; a blunder.

trump rarely gaffes--in fact he doubles down on what many on the right hope can be characterized as gaffes.

give me an example of a trump gaffe, where he concedes his statement was a gaffe--a mistake, a blunder, where he says he didnt mean what he said---forget apology--trump is not capable of apology--and he cant gaffe, bc a gaffe is a mistake, and trump cant admit mistakes--his wacko fat assed ego wont allow it.

to call trump's continual ugly statements gaffes is a manipulative mischaracterization--trump means what he says and never retracts any of it.

so how do YOU think Bill Clinton would have treated Bob Mueller upon rtn from vietnam?


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 15, 2019, 02:26:27 PM

so how do YOU think Bill Clinton would have treated Bob Mueller upon rtn from vietnam?

I dunno, maybe offer Mueller a piece of the action on the sweet deal he had with the CIA when he was letting them fly literal tons of cocaine into Mena, Arkansas? 8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/keyword/mena-arkansas

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 15, 2019, 05:47:12 PM
gaff--an unintentional act or remark causing embarrassment to its originator; a blunder.

trump rarely gaffes--in fact he doubles down on what many on the right hope can be characterized as gaffes.

give me an example of a trump gaffe, where he concedes his statement was a gaffe--a mistake, a blunder, where he says he didnt mean what he said---forget apology--trump is not capable of apology--and he cant gaffe, bc a gaffe is a mistake, and trump cant admit mistakes--his wacko fat assed ego wont allow it.

to call trump's continual ugly statements gaffes is a manipulative mischaracterization--trump means what he says and never retracts any of it.

so how do YOU think Bill Clinton would have treated Bob Mueller upon rtn from vietnam?

You’re right gaffe was not the right word.

My guess is, as a war protester, BC would have protested Mueller.  He would have had to, if for no other reason than to convince him self of his self righteousness.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 06:19:47 PM
so youre assuming that, because clinton was a war protestor, it makes sense to guess that clinton would have "protested mueller". would you guess that all war protestors would have "protested mueller" to convince themselves of their self-righteousness??

does this mean a person cannot be a war protestor, but still support and take pride in our military and its fine servicemen? it's one or the other, huh?

i can only guess what trump was up to in those days---tho he has explained he was slutting around aggressively during that period, when he was so debilitated with bone spurs--so in trump's case it's not all guesswork.

what do you guess clinton did to "protest mueller"?

are you aware of any records of clinton "protest(ing) mueller"?  or is this soup to nuts guesswork?

cause there's a lot to guess about in the world--beyond whether clinton would have "protested mueller".


Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 06:27:35 PM
MW----from the wikilink you beamed down from wherever scotty beamed you up to:

"Several conspiracy theories exist regarding Mena Intermountain Municipal Airport, its alleged connection to the CIA, and even the involvement of figures such as Oliver North and former presidents George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.[13][14]

The CIA's self-investigation, overseen by the CIA's inspector general, concluded that the CIA had no involvement in or knowledge of any illegal activities that may have occurred in Mena. The report said that the agency had conducted a training exercise at the airport in partnership with another Federal agency and that companies located at the airport had performed "routine aviation-related services on equipment owned by the CIA".[15]

The film American Made is a highly fictionalized telling of the story of Barry Seal, a pilot and Medellin cartel drug smuggler who based his operations in Mena.[16]"

this is the only mention of clinton in the 3 links--mueller's name does not appear.

your point?

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 15, 2019, 06:30:05 PM
so youre assuming that, because clinton was a war protestor, it makes sense to guess that clinton would have "protested mueller". would you guess that all war protestors would have "protested mueller" to convince themselves of their self-righteousness??

does this mean a person cannot be a war protestor, but still support and take pride in our military and its fine servicemen? it's one or the other, huh?

i can only guess what trump was up to in those days---tho he has explained he was slutting around aggressively during that period, when he was so debilitated with bone spurs--so in trump's case it's not all guesswork.

what do you guess clinton did to "protest mueller"?

not that, by defintion, one can protest a human

are you aware of any records of clinton "protest(ing) mueller"?  or is this soup to nuts guesswork?

cause there's a lot to guess about in the world--beyond whether clinton would have "protested mueller".
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 15, 2019, 07:02:53 PM
Hi eastie.....Some serious heat coming at Comey,Clapper, Brennen. If a verifiable paper trail proves bad conduct on their part, what should happen?
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: PonoBill on May 15, 2019, 07:45:16 PM
My opinion of the Clintons is that they are money grubbing traitors who sold the country's interest out to the Chinese. If I were king they'd be in a federal pen for life. But I'm not, and that was then, this is now. The biggest problem with this discussion is everyone pretending that they actually know what has/is happening and are therefore the definitive source of what is true and right. Let me introduce you to reality--no one knows much. I'm not just talking about current events, though we could stick to that if we must, but all this bluster on both sides is fundamentally horseshit.

It's not a giant conspiracy--at least I don't really think so, because from what I've seen 99.999 percent of the population couldn't organize a pissing match at a keg party, and no one--as in absolutely no one--can keep a secret. It's a bunch of people acting in their own self interest, according to their own beliefs. Read a little history--it's always been so in this country, and every other. Jefferson and Madison, war of 1812 makes a good start. Not what you think it was, I guarantee. I recommend "The War Presidents" but read the book, don't get the audible version--the guy makes text-to-speech look artful.

Everyone wants to make a big deal about veterans and how people behaved. It's fluff--no more significant than hemlines and the current lightweight pop star (except Ed Sheeran? Really??). You served or you didn't serve, big fucking deal. You were a successful draft dodger--good for you. Being face down in a rice paddy full of shit shooting people you don't know anything about isn't some kind of qualifier. And it was a very different time. I got called a baby killer by a 50-something lady in Logan airport. Thank you for your service--fuck you. I don't give a shit that Trump didn't serve, or Bolton for that mater. I despise them because they are assholes. It's not complicated. They suck. You know it, I know it. They shouldn't be leading a chamber of commerce, never mind a country. If you think some wobbly economic results are a reason to support a president who is an embarrassment in every possible way then there isn't anything more to say, except that you sell your birthright cheaply.

Yes, I could be called an elitist, hell, I've been called a liberal which gave me a few moments of pleasure. More than fifty years ago I joined a Republican party that lead the way in civil rights, and seemed to really believe in the constitution, limiting the power of government, led by patriots who really did care about the USA being great and being a light to the world. What I look at now is a mean spirited remnant of sold-out motherfuckers who are an embarrassment. They kowtow to idiots who believe the earth is ten thousand years old to grab up votes and money, take positions that insult the fundamental notion of conservatism, and foster xenophobia instead of welcoming the next wave of American immigrants who will make the country stronger and more successful. WTF is there to believe in about that. The most that right wing folks can do today is point at the excesses of the "Libtards". Which is the same thing the left does.

Just fucking brilliant.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Rider on May 15, 2019, 07:54:25 PM
Hi Pono, so I guess you are a Beto Guy? 8)
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: PonoBill on May 15, 2019, 08:10:36 PM
Hi Pono, so I guess you are a Beto Guy? 8)

Well that, of course, sums it up.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: lucabrasi on May 15, 2019, 09:06:12 PM
……….
trump rarely gaffes--in fact he doubles down on what many on the right hope can be characterized as gaffes.

give me an example of a trump gaffe, where he concedes his statement was a gaffe--a mistake, a blunder, where he says he didnt mean what he said---forget apology--trump is not capable of apology--and he cant gaffe, bc a gaffe is a mistake, and trump cant admit mistakes--his wacko fat assed ego wont allow it.

to call trump's continual ugly statements gaffes is a manipulative mischaracterization--trump means what he says and never retracts any of it.
…...
well by golly. I can agree with what your saying here.
How about that?


.........
.............
.........
Just fucking brilliant.
not bad........I liked it.

Could you see Trump leading the local Chamber of your charming little town up the road?
SNL.....
 has that been done?


.......It's fluff--no more significant than hemlines and the current lightweight pop star (except Ed Sheeran? Really??)....

Anybody see Jaggers video today?
What a bad ass.
Never really thought "bad ass" was a word I would think of to describe Mick before seeing that....

too bad half of us are a sack of hammers......
there might be hope.









Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 15, 2019, 10:12:54 PM
MW----from the wikilink you beamed down from wherever scotty beamed you up to:

"Several conspiracy theories exist regarding Mena Intermountain Municipal Airport, its alleged connection to the CIA, and even the involvement of figures such as Oliver North and former presidents George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton.[13][14]

The CIA's self-investigation, overseen by the CIA's inspector general, concluded that the CIA had no involvement in or knowledge of any illegal activities that may have occurred in Mena. The report said that the agency had conducted a training exercise at the airport in partnership with another Federal agency and that companies located at the airport had performed "routine aviation-related services on equipment owned by the CIA".[15]

The film American Made is a highly fictionalized telling of the story of Barry Seal, a pilot and Medellin cartel drug smuggler who based his operations in Mena.[16]"

this is the only mention of clinton in the 3 links--mueller's name does not appear.

your point?

Oh, so the spooks at the CIA told us they had no involvement? Well then it must be true! C'mon, really?

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.”
—Former CIA Director, William Casey
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: magentawave on May 15, 2019, 10:14:10 PM
Hi Pono, so I guess you are a Beto Guy? 8)

Hey, his name is BOBBY!
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 16, 2019, 03:17:31 AM
ok--you have no point, apparently

fun reads-good sources---looks like there might be something there--real official looking and stuff=-but it's tough to conclude youve actually read, or even "scanned" what youve linked--cuz there's nothing there at all re clinton and/or mueller

your point seemed to be about them--did you link the wrong pieces accidentally?

give em a quick scan, youll see what i mean





Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 16, 2019, 08:18:33 AM
cause there's a lot to guess about in the world--

Hey, you did ask me to respond first, to the hypothetical, and I gave you my honest "guess".  So, how do you think it would have gone if they had a chance meeting back in the day? 

Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 16, 2019, 08:57:10 AM
Bean=>"My guess is, as a war protester, BC would have protested Mueller.  He would have had to, if for no other reason than to convince him self of his self righteousness."

again i disagree with your guess, bean--it implies that one cant have protested the vietnam war, and not also have expressed negativity for those who served. you imply again, but what do you believe? it's ok. just say what you think. why always beat around the bush?

what i think: my sense is that most of those who protested and resisted the awful mess we made in vietnam, actually empathized with those who served. after all, it was pretty damned grisly and tragic for so many of those poor young people. i will never forget the disturbing photos in Life magazine back then. when i protest a war, a big part of my protest is that honest patriotic young americans get sent to high risk for bad dishonest reasons. I dont fault them. I respect them. I dont respect Bolton and Trump and think theyre the last people who shd be making decision about putting our awesome military folk at risk.

But here's copy of a letter clinton wrote, as a 23 yo at Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship (a truly incredible accomplishment, on its own--that cant be bought, like kushner's harvard degree), to his ROTC contact--which was leaked to the press during the first election.

he discusses the letter and his situation during the vietnam war, as well, in an interview in feb 92 with ted koeppel--that followed the leak of the letter.

He says nothing that would indicate any distaste for those who served, and wrestled personally with his distaste for the war and for the draft, as applied to the vietnam war specifically.

I wonder what Mueller, a standup lifelong conservative republican, would say today about his experience of the vietnam war? I'd have deepest respect for his POV. Kerry too. Clinton? meh   But let's not try to invent Clinton as having negativity for those who served. Feels good to the Clinton haters I'm sure, but no basis in fact at all.

And I am anything but a Clinton lover, but gotta try to hew to reality.............
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 16, 2019, 10:06:33 AM
...it implies that one cant have protested the vietnam war, and not also have expressed negativity for those who served.
Yes, because that kind of positive sentement for our troops, which is common today, simply did not exist prior to the end of the Iranean Hostage Crisis.  Certainly, BC could have been the exception...
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 16, 2019, 10:45:53 AM
"Yes, because that kind of positive sentement for our troops, which is common today, simply did not exist prior to the end of the Iranean Hostage Crisis.  Certainly, BC could have been the exception..."

he we go again--guessing what you are trying to say....

so youre trying to say that democratic support for our military simply did not exist prior to the iran hostage episode? whaaah

or all those opposed to the vietnam war, or the korean war, or any of our wars, always had negative sentiments for those in our military? until after the iran hostage episode?

this is simply nutty fantasy---wild shit---first we're guessing what clinton thought about mueller, some 50 years ago--now were engaging fantasy that democrats and those who have opposed US wars are unpatriotic, and never had respect for our military prior to the iran hostage episode...wild!

but hey, if ive got your words wrong (and, admittedly, they are confusing to me), pls clarify

 i bet many resent your POV--many protesters had friends and family who came back from vietnam dead or permanently damaged in awful ways--and it was tough to escape the terrible tragic circumstances our 18 YO soldiers were put in, for dishonest reasons at best--to say those war-protestors didnt respect or care for our boots on the ground military would offend them deeply---many had serious skin in the game: friends and family with with their lives on the line.............

and then there were hawks like pres bonespurs, and john bolton.....tough guys! what a sad joke....
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 16, 2019, 11:01:27 AM
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/etc/draftletter.html
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 16, 2019, 11:34:49 AM
...so youre trying to say that democratic support for our military simply did not exist prior to the iran hostage episode?
Nope, (as you know), we are only discussing the aftermath of the Vietnam War...

But, feel free to interpret it any way you want, since this conversation is thankfully of no moment to either you or I.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 16, 2019, 12:03:01 PM
i guess you forgot what you wrote:

"Yes, because that kind of positive sentement for our troops, which is common today, simply did not exist prior to the end of the Iranean Hostage Crisis.  Certainly, BC could have been the exception..

no reference to pre or post vietnam--maybe in your mind, or some other place you posted??

tough for poor writing and citation to be of moment to anyone, even you, as you say, the writer...

say something...and say it in a way that's intelligible..so there can be discourse---you dont do discourse
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 16, 2019, 12:27:02 PM
no reference to pre or post vietnam-
We were talking about BC
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 17, 2019, 08:32:38 AM
"Yes, because that kind of positive sentement for our troops, which is common today, simply did not exist prior to the end of the Iranean Hostage Crisis.  Certainly, BC could have been the exception.."

then

"We were talking about BC"

No way, Bean. read your words carefully--YOU wrote of a general phenomenon YOU claim to have existed in the past, before the Iraq crisis--and then you allowed that Clinton might have been the exception to the general phenomenon you described (a phenomenon with nil basis in fact, btw).

tough to engage you--you cant even hew to what you yourself have written--no discourse--no mas--bye bye
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: Bean on May 17, 2019, 10:49:06 AM
you cant even hew to what you yourself have written-

Hew can say that again... ;D
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: SUPJorge on May 17, 2019, 11:52:19 AM
What Pono wrote.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: mrbig on May 17, 2019, 02:11:24 PM
Hue and Cry. Hopefully this one is finished. I prefer the Breeze way.

General for non board stuff.

IMHO.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: PonoBill on May 17, 2019, 03:59:35 PM
I recommend you visit Switzerland and spend some time in remote places speaking with simple uneducated and not-so-smart people. A local café is a good place to start but you could also go further than the last village and stop and talk with locals. You’ll be shocked how informed they are on issues. With borders never far away you’ll be surprised how many can speak a foreign language so you can actually talk with many of them. If you give the people the power to vote they actually will go out and get informed. Which actually is the first step to un-dumb them.

Here’s the history and the theory
   https://houseofswitzerland.org/swissstories/history/way-modern-direct-democracy-switzerland
but, as said above, it is the effect it has on how informed Mr&Mrs DumbF#ck are as a result that is pleasantly refreshing.


A “democracy” with representatives that are paid into position by the big and powerful companies and lobbies drifts very quickly from being a true democracy. I heard Chomsky talking about that when I was 18 but now it is becoming even more extreme.

I've spent a few months in Switzerland over the years, pleasant place, but calling it a true democracy is a gross oversimplification of probably the most complicated government structure I've ever failed to understand.

Anything with a Nordic feel is currently fashionable to quote as the "most somethingorother" way to govern, live, vote, etc.. This too shall pass. I recommend Michael Booth's "The Almost Nearly Perfect People" as an antidote. It's not a slam, just a more realistic view of cultures and governments that are both praiseworthy, and flawed. Homogeneous societies have an easy time of it, and it's easy to point to isolated aspects of their existence as examples of how we all should work and live.

The US is not a huge country in terms of population, but in land mass, resources, economy, and cultural and racial complexity there isn't really anything to compare it to, and so there isn't any easy example to follow. As a bad example, the casual racism of the Scandinavian countries would be a wet dream for any US White Supremacist.
Title: Re: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc
Post by: eastbound on May 18, 2019, 06:02:43 AM
it was painful and it is finished, biggie--but, in fairness, the title of this thread shd indicate contents such as this