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General Category => Random => Topic started by: Wetstuff on April 02, 2019, 10:01:24 AM

Title: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 02, 2019, 10:01:24 AM
I have not done in years .. the local shop closed maybe 8yrs ago .. two local surf/kite couples still ski - one pair, retired UPS driver and teacher wife, go to Killington VT for the winter: he's an 'Ambassador', she teaches at Killington School.  ..the other couple, retired Chiro and Siemens exec., spend a month in Utah.  My grandson teaches snowboarding at Big Bear for coin on weekends.

Business Week had a really interesting piece on the change in the landscape.  I hope it's clear enough to read. 

Jim

...looks like I have to do multiple posts?





Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 02, 2019, 10:01:58 AM
Page 2

Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 02, 2019, 10:02:51 AM
3.  (maybe click to enlarge?)

Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 02, 2019, 11:52:33 AM
Dumb C'hit...  I cudda jes Googgle'it!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-01/epic-vs-ikon-battle-for-the-best-ski-pass
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Dusk Patrol on April 02, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
Vail Resorts bought Whistler which was my go to splurge, then raised the already steep ticket prices and altered the 3 and 5 day passes available to kama'aina Washington neighbors.. then VR bought one of Seattle's little local places (Stevens Pass) and raised the price to $102. It seems like some line has been crossed.    Of mine at least.    Maybe that line is 'crankiness due to age'  : )
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on April 02, 2019, 01:32:39 PM
day pass at vail is 210$

Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Dusk Patrol on April 02, 2019, 02:03:18 PM
day pass at vail is 210$

Makes one realize how swollen the economy is with money...  problem is the differential access to it. 
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: digger71 on April 02, 2019, 02:28:18 PM
Expensive if you are only skiing 1 or 2 days a year but the new model is GREAT for someone who plans to go 10+ days in a season.  I get the Ikon Base pass for $619 ($30 renewal discount) for near unlimited* days at Mammoth and Big Bear locally, and the chance to go to many other resorts in CO and UT for multiple days for no additional cost.  Far cheaper than what a season pass to a single mountain used to be.

* maybe 10 blackout dates per season
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Tom on April 02, 2019, 04:11:07 PM
I've had a season pass to Mammoth for 10 or 15 years. At first it was Mammoth and June only, then it included Big Bear and Snow Summit with small discounts at a few random resorts. It was usually priced so that you'd break even if you went 6 to 9 days a year. My bonus was after I became 65 years old it was $400 unlimited when single day tickets went for up to $150. Last year they started the Ikon pass with no senior discount, $650. This gives you 12 unlimited (except for some blackout days) and 5 days at 25 destinations. The Ikon is good for some, not so much for others.

 I only board at Mammoth so was happier with the $400 senior pass, but it's still a pretty good deal for me. Those that live in Mammoth and only ski there are pissed. Some of my friends went on trips to Aspen, Alta, and Brighton and they all said the locals there were pretty pissed that all the new Ikon skiers are showing up at their spots.

I've also heard from the local businesses that during the blackout weekends, they staff up but no one shows up.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 03, 2019, 06:29:44 AM
Here's part of an email from my friend, Dottie...

"We bought SnowBasin passes this year and next.  This year they are part of a different group of resorts (The Mountain Collective). Next year they have an agreement with Epic.
   
We had a good trip, wore the crap out of ourselves, only skipped 3 of 27 days. Didn’t do much else.  Ski, happy hour ( a LOT of tailgating since lodge beers are 9.50), hot tub, dinner in jammies by 6:30 or so, early crash.  We had nice lunches on the mountain, but only went out to dinner ONCE. Well twice, the last night at SLC airport hotel we had to buy dinner before early flight.   Hope to do it again."

....'chit - I'm tired thinking about it.  Beer - $9.50?

Jim
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: RideTheGlide on April 03, 2019, 07:35:18 AM
Gone are the days of dorm style rooms in the basement at Aspen Highlands (I think that's where we were). When I lived in Denver, I went to a lot of the smaller resorts for not much at all. One year a little place called Ski Cooper did a deal where you got a half day of snow cat skiing and a half day lift ticket for $30. It was only for a short period to get the word out. A buddy and I went and got several runs through untouched belly button deep powder. Amazing deal. Nothing like that these days. One year I got a season pass at a very small resort - Berthoud Pass - for $8. They only sold them the first few days of the season to CO residents. Every time you went, you had to get in line for a lift ticket and show your CO driver's license with a matching name and they would record that you had gotten one for that day. The idea is that you would bring friends and spend money in the lodge.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: digger71 on April 03, 2019, 10:36:42 AM
Interesting article with some historical prices
https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/many-cost-going-uphill-going-down

Tom - I've heard the same about locals not liking the crowds.  Jackson Hole locals in particular were not happy.  Of course very many ski town locals make their living around tourism so there's that...
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: lucabrasi on April 03, 2019, 01:33:35 PM
I've had a season pass to Mammoth for 10 or 15 years. At first it was Mammoth and June only, then it included Big Bear and Snow Summit with small discounts at a few random resorts. It was usually priced so that you'd break even if you went 6 to 9 days a year. My bonus was after I became 65 years old it was $400 unlimited when single day tickets went for up to $150. Last year they started the Ikon pass with no senior discount, $650. This gives you 12 unlimited (except for some blackout days) and 5 days at 25 destinations. The Ikon is good for some, not so much for others.

 I only board at Mammoth so was happier with the $400 senior pass, but it's still a pretty good deal for me. Those that live in Mammoth and only ski there are pissed. Some of my friends went on trips to Aspen, Alta, and Brighton and they all said the locals there were pretty pissed that all the new Ikon skiers are showing up at their spots.

I've also heard from the local businesses that during the blackout weekends, they staff up but no one shows up.
Interesting article with some historical prices
https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/many-cost-going-uphill-going-down

Tom - I've heard the same about locals not liking the crowds.  Jackson Hole locals in particular were not happy.  Of course very many ski town locals make their living around tourism so there's that...
I just get a season pass every August figuring it's like tearing a bandaid off. It usually pays for itself but damn if I going to show up and shell out that much money every time I want to ride the lifts. If I didn't have the pass I wouldn't go as much, I am sure of that. The price of daily and half day tickets has gotten so much it pays for itself every time anymore and it's downright scary walking up to the window and dropping that much every time. 
Yeah, it really ramped up the crowds this year (jh), amazingly so. Just a zoo at times, lines, parking, on the mountain, etc. It was like Presidents weekend mid week in March and weekends really blew out while the traditionally busy times seemed the same or even down some. I think the numbers from what they predicted to what actually showed up were like double or more while everyplace that employs is pretty much understaffed to start with so lots of stress. They reupped for a few years as well. Ikon Pass. Not a fan of that many riders on the mountain at once zooming every which way. Many obviously out of control and throw that in with the high speed and just plain quad lifts able to put so many on the mountain at once and it's quite the scene.
The Ikon pass is really quite a deal tho from what I gather and actually since I am not "in town" every day anymore I was going to check it out myself.
Tourism is the life blood and if they didn't come.......it's a cruel double edged sword.
Snowbasin is quite the place.
Did Heavenly last year. Half day $125 walking up to the window. A Guiness was $16 on the mountain. Owch, and then it took about 5 minutes to get a lift ticket cuz they wanted so much info so I could "be in the system".
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on April 03, 2019, 02:33:35 PM
alta was 6 bux when i lived at parley's summit for a year some 39 years ago

alta is still a decent deal--fly in to slc--take a cab up little cottonwood (no rentacar) and stay at peruvian or goldminers--took my kids and cranky first wife there twice yearly for some 15 years--thankfully she stopped coming after a few--and then i lost her--nuther thkfully
no snowboards---sorry

not cheap, but my favorite lift-serviced skiing, and way cheap compared to most other options--vail? no thanks--overrun with newly moneyed folk who chose vail that year instead of vegas or disney--mountain experience?? nope -- money experience
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: cnski on April 03, 2019, 06:04:20 PM
This season has been fantastic at Alta snowwise but the Ikon pass has really affected the experience. All the locals are up in arms much like the Jackson Hole locals. Passholders are writing letters to management left and right. I bet Alta will not be part of it after their contract expires after next season. It's just not the Alta experience. And management knows it. Lifties are saying that 30-40% of the skiers getting on the chair are Ikon passholders. It has changed the game for sure. Totally noticable from last season. It's just plain awful and the traffic up and down little cottonwood canyon is monumental. It certainly has not been an Ikonic experience for locals. I've been a passholder in that canyon all my life and put in 70+ days there this season with over 1,000,000 vertical feet skied.  I then left to start a new job in Rhode Island. I now live one block from the beach. I come home after work and walk my kite stuff down to the water to finish the day. I can tell my quality of life will be better with my new arrangement. I'm sure come next December I will be wishing I was home. My vacation time will be spent skiing Alta and being with friends and family. Maybe I need an Ikon pass now. Great.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 03, 2019, 07:18:17 PM
For the past 10 years we had a cabin in our local mountains near a busy little resort (Big Bear). We had season passes and a season locker. Our Season passes were around $500 ea. As the kids got older and doing other club sports during winter, we just couldn't find the time to go anymore. We sold the cabin a year ago, and let the seasonal locker go (a two year waiting list to get one). It was sad, but now we will just go skiing at randomly different areas. I'm heading to Mammoth at the end of the month for the PSIA convention with a bunch of old instructor friends. We are making it our anual Beer and Advil reunion of sorts. I don't instruct anymore and am not a current PSIA member, but it's a great time to ski with my old friends who are all good skiers. Some who still teach after all these years. Should be some great spring skiing. I'm bringing an extra pair of 'wide under foot' boards. What a game changer in the Sierra Cement. I don't ski enough anymore to buy an Icon Pass. If there is good surf and good snow, I'll surf. That's why I live at the beach.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 03, 2019, 08:00:42 PM
A 3-day pass is $329 at Mammoth if I buy my pass 7 days in advance. I thought that gets me halfway to an Icon pass, BUT.. we almost always ski on the holidays :-\   $1K. Nope.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Wetstuff on April 04, 2019, 01:54:35 PM
There's a rumble in the mountains...  My friend Dottie sent me this.

"Our local friends at Snowbasin are just as upset about Snowbasin joining EPIC pass.  One printed stickers with big EPIC letters and in fine print underneath it says “Every Prick in Colorado” !  Plastering all over the gondolas...."


Jim
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 04, 2019, 03:02:47 PM
This season has been fantastic at Alta snowwise but the Ikon pass has really affected the experience. All the locals are up in arms..... My vacation time will be spent skiing Alta and being with friends and family. Maybe I need an Ikon pass now. Great.
I can't imagine Alta letting those left wing, pot smoking, out of control snowboarders at their area? I mean what's the world coming to? I mean seriously.. get a hockey stop! ;D
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: surf4food on April 05, 2019, 05:10:52 PM
Might be time to take up XC skiing and/or fat tire snowbiking.  No lift tix needed.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Rider on April 05, 2019, 05:58:21 PM
I started skiing at Mamouth when the tickets were $6.50.  After a couple years they went to $8.50. We stayed at Tom’s Place for $15.00 per night. Of course that included a huge breakfast and wonderful dinner. Singing by the fireplace and wonderful girls.....
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on April 15, 2019, 08:33:34 AM
cnski, if you can handle my politics, love to have a chat sometime, maybe after a nice surf sesh in RI--i get up there often, tho tend to surf the western RI spots.

we have certainly skiied many of the same lines many times--after many of the same storms, no less---same interlodges!--alta's a part of my soul, and that of my kids'
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 27, 2019, 11:06:43 PM
Spring skiing at Mammoth Mtn today. Slushy even at the top. Knees at talking to me.....
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: lucabrasi on April 28, 2019, 05:52:19 AM
Cool.
Doesn't look to mushy....hopefully some corn as well. Sunshine if nothing else.
Looks like an old pair of Beta Carves...

If you get a pass to the mountain here this year they are kicking in an IKON base pass as well.
There had always been some sort of collective discounts at other mountains with a pass purchase but this kind of ups it up some.

Snowbasin.....I forgot but then I remembered hearing on the SLC news how they were towing lots of cars early in the year and the parking was stressed out far more than in past years but they didn't mention IKON on the report....
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: jpeter on April 28, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
Jackson Hole passholder for 21 years.  I hate the Ikon Pass.  Busy every day I skied this year.   Just bought a season pass for next year.   IKON is included,  so maybe use it in VT,  but would rather have JH disassociate from them.

JP
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: NorthJerzSurfer on April 29, 2019, 06:56:04 AM
I lived in Park City for several years and still have many friends there.  The horror stories coming out of these passes is amazing.

But- leave your favorite sport up to Wall Street and they will figure out how to make this happen.  The whole collective pass was the brainchild of a non-skiier PE guy who was looking for the next untapped market in skiing.  they found it.

I maintain no season passes now.   I buy day passes at smaller local hills with my kids and take one Heli trip per year.

I realize snowcat / heli is out of many peoples budget.  But if you are a seasoned skiier or snowboarder (I competed in USASA Boardercross for a number of years)  The money is well worth it to stay out of a resort.

Weekend/Holiday skiing is NEVER coming back for me.  just not enjoyable at all or worth any money.  I just bank it all for that one snowcat/heli week.

Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: Tom on April 29, 2019, 08:48:15 AM
The fact is that it is very hard for a ski resort to make money and they see joining a group. Is one way to stay afloat.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on April 29, 2019, 09:00:31 AM
nojerz, i lived for a year in summit park for a year--across from the jeremy ranch golf course

several years before you, likely
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: NorthJerzSurfer on April 29, 2019, 10:13:53 AM
Small world Eastie.  I was there in 07-09 waiting out the recession by splitboarding and generally loafing .....
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 29, 2019, 11:28:33 AM
My buddy I was just skiing with this weekend in Mammoth lives in Park City. He and his two son's teach at Deer Valley. They live on the hill above Bill White Farms.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 29, 2019, 11:45:23 AM
Cool.
Doesn't look to mushy....hopefully some corn as well. Sunshine if nothing else.
Looks like an old pair of Beta Carves...

If you get a pass to the mountain here this year they are kicking in an IKON base pass as well.
There had always been some sort of collective discounts at other mountains with a pass purchase but this kind of ups it up some.

Snowbasin.....I forgot but then I remembered hearing on the SLC news how they were towing lots of cars early in the year and the parking was stressed out far more than in past years but they didn't mention IKON on the report....
First thing they ask at the foods, ski rentals, retail store, etc.. 'Do you have an ICON pass?' It get's you 10 to 15% off. I'm actually thing about reinstating my PSIA membership, because they get great discounts on skis, lift tickets, lodging, even mountain bikes.

Those skis I'm on are Nordica Vantage95c 186cm that are 2017's I think? They were on lone to me. Freak'n awesome in the slush. Like water skis. Great in the steeps and actually carved nice too. I have a pair of 2017 Blizzard Brahmas 90 under foot. I wasn't as impressed with them in the crud. The tail is really stiff like my K2 race skis. If you don't get on them the tails tend to skid too much. I'm going to be looking for a used pair of those Nordica's. So much fun in all conditions.  That run in the picture is Philippe's.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 29, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
This happened Sunday when I was skiing Scotty's. I look up and saw someone drop off the little cornice above, make one turn and wipeout. Then started cart wheeling into the mega slide of doom ( been there!). I happen to have my GoPro running. It's purposely low res so I could email it to some people.
https://youtu.be/sqyICXDyu2U
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on April 29, 2019, 01:14:39 PM
Dang, that was not a very good looking knee she had going on there. Another good, and biggest reason I don't ski...frozen water hurts, and can do damage when you fall on it.  :'(
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: TallDude on April 29, 2019, 01:42:18 PM
Cool.
Doesn't look to mushy....hopefully some corn as well. Sunshine if nothing else.
Looks like an old pair of Beta Carves...

If you get a pass to the mountain here this year they are kicking in an IKON base pass as well.
There had always been some sort of collective discounts at other mountains with a pass purchase but this kind of ups it up some.

Snowbasin.....I forgot but then I remembered hearing on the SLC news how they were towing lots of cars early in the year and the parking was stressed out far more than in past years but they didn't mention IKON on the report....

Those skis I'm on are Nordica? Atomic Vantage95c 186cm that are 2017's I think? They were on lone to me. Freak'n awesome in the slush. Like water skis. Great in the steeps and actually carved nice too. I have a pair of 2017 Blizzard Brahmas 90 under foot. I wasn't as impressed with them in the crud. The tail is really stiff like my K2 race skis. If you don't get on them the tails tend to skid too much. I'm going to be looking for a used pair of those Atomic's. So much fun in all conditions.  That run in the picture is Philippe's.
Revised.... I don't now what I was thinking... Atomic's
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: lucabrasi on April 29, 2019, 08:54:18 PM
Those skis I'm on are Nordica Vantage95c 186cm that are 2017's I think? They were on lone to me. Freak'n awesome in the slush. Like water skis. Great in the steeps and actually carved nice too. I have a pair of 2017 Blizzard Brahmas 90 under foot. I wasn't as impressed with them in the crud. The tail is really stiff like my K2 race skis. If you don't get on them the tails tend to skid too much. I'm going to be looking for a used pair of those Nordica's. So much fun in all conditions.  That run in the picture is Philippe's.
I knew what you meant. They do look a bit like some older Beta Carve's I used to have with the color and simple graphic. The whole Vantage line is awesome and they are still turning them out. I got a pair of Alibi's that they morphed into the Vantage's (98 under foot) I ski a lot. Has a little "Vantage series" sticker on them. If I could only have one pair out of all I got I would probably pick that pair. You can't go wrong with what your looking at no matter the year. Fat enough for most days, still way fatter than back in the day, fine on groomers, plenty stable and no chatter, and rocker. My quads love the rocker. I need another pair of skis like I need another board or another fishing pole or golf club...…….I do tho, I want something around 78-82 underfoot for those cold, been weeks since snow days.....custom Hammer......10 wt for Salmon....driver I can really hit or a magic 3 iron....

Another thing I noticed with the IKON this year. Way more boarders, percentage wise. We've always had plenty but it's always been more of a skier mtn overall it has seemed and even more so last 10 years or so. Nothing wrong but it definitely ramped up that way. That scraping sound was way more frequent. I also noticed at Tahoe last year a higher percentage than what I am used to here.
I wonder how many boarders show up at Alta, especially with the IKON now.....to find out..........you ain't riding here.
Hope her knee's ok....probably didn't lower her din when she hit 50.....


Jackson Hole passholder for 21 years.  I hate the Ikon Pass.  Busy every day I skied this year.   Just bought a season pass for next year.   IKON is included,  so maybe use it in VT,  but would rather have JH disassociate from them.JP
me too but.......
We'll have to do some runs next winter......If you been around that long, even part time I am sure we know some of the same people. I'll have to remember to shoot you a message.
Paddle? Golf? I do avoid the park and really town/the valley itself anymore except in the winter to go to the mtn. Fish? I got something that's pretty damn fun off a board...if you like getting into your backing....and maybe even getting towed around.
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on April 30, 2019, 05:07:32 AM
love my full tilt first chairs--on my 2016 katana 191's
Title: Re: The business of Skiing
Post by: eastbound on May 03, 2019, 05:38:14 AM
big tax flight to wyoming--private jets swarming--it's one of the most favorable tax states in the country