Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: exiled on March 24, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
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So way back in the day, Carl Schaper (2007?) stuck step rails on the old Southpoint Bonga Perkins SUPs, but it didn't exactly take the industry by storm.
The concept got worked into the Jammer from Supsports, but didn't make it into later models.
Sunnova has a super tweaked out version on the Shroom, but not any other model?
Now Portal is using it with all of their models, and infinity is rolling it out in the Blurr 2.0
It seems like such an obvious design choice that I'm wondering why it hasn't been more popular? Why not just shape 5 inch thick boards and step the rails down?
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It's kind of a double edge sword. Kings boards have had them for a while. I've surfed a few and found them very tippy compared to a similar width board with 50/50 or tapered rails. The concept is it reduces the at edge volume, which can give you a harder turn with better hold. Aside from the tippyness, I find the board dips or bobs right and left near the nose when I am just paddling it straight. The boards I tried were lower in volume for me. 120l to 140l range.
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Low enough volume so that the rails were under water?
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Low enough volume so that the rails were under water?
One of the King's I tried...yes. My short board is mostly under water as well, so it's almost an apples for apples. The other Kings I tried was a longer, maybe 10' x 29", so about the same as my Coreban Icon. That was the one that paddled funky. It's like it slips sideways right and left under water.
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JP Australia uses a step rail on its Fusion line. I thought the purpose was to keep the deck flat but still have a decent thinness to the rail. The Fusion boards are big enough that the step isn’t submerged any more than other boards.
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Plus one on the tippiness. TallDude you have a gift for explaining things. I could never put my feelings into words but that’s what I felt when I’ve demo’d Kings step rails. Just a bit out of my reach.
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This was the lower volume one I tried. I remember the wind had come up and chopped it up. I was struggling on the board.
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Interesting, I ask because I've also heard from some guys think generally that having the rails underwater adds to stability.
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Interesting, I ask because I've also heard from some guys think generally that having the rails underwater adds to stability.
The further out you can push the volume, the more stable the board. A domed deck progressively decreases the volume as it gets closer to the edge. The stepped rail carries more volume out closer to the rail via a flat deck, but then rapidly drops in volume in the last 2" on the rail. The average volume of the outer 6" of the two different rail types maybe very similar but it's really how much volume is at the rail the ultimately determines stability.
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my portal doesnt seem any tippier than comparable boards ive tried--might be im just used to it---but were the portal way tippier, id notice
my L41 had stepped rails, and was very stable, but that was more about width and wide tail/nose than rail shape
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Interesting, I ask because I've also heard from some guys think generally that having the rails underwater adds to stability.
I read mixed opinions about this one. It comes down to personal experience imo.
My 10'x31"x4" @ 150L has fully submerged rails almost throughout the length of the board. I find it very stable
even though I designed it for my self at 175LB (wishful thinking) and I ride it now at over 200LB with winter gear.
It does make it a significantly slower than other shapes I've tried without submerged rails.
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Interesting, I ask because I've also heard from some guys think generally that having the rails underwater adds to stability.
I read mixed opinions about this one. It comes down to personal experience imo.
My 10'x31"x4" @ 150L has fully submerged rails almost throughout the length of the board. I find it very stable
even though I designed it for my self at 175LB (wishful thinking) and I ride it now at over 200LB with winter gear.
It does make it a significantly slower than other shapes I've tried without submerged rails.
I am a relative novice, only a year into SUP, but have swapped out with others and paddled a lot of boards. I find submerged rails give me good stability by being unstable in slow motion if that makes any sense. IOW, when I got off balance I had more time to recover.
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I'm not a fan of domed decks, they make my ankles ache, but I like thinned out rails, so stepped is good. On my L41 it made the board challenging to stand on, the sweet spot for balance, both in pitch and yaw, is tiny. But it carves turns with a feel that's hard to express--I aim to be able to feel that locked-in sensation on a foil once I get past the "whee, I'm flying" stage. Which is taking much longer than expected.
The Foote Triton has stepped rails too, though its of a style that's also hard to explain and it gives the board tight turning ability that a 10'4" board shouldn't have. The rail looks full at the nose and tail because it tapers upward as the rocker increases. I think it makes the arc of the board tighter than the rocker line and let's it snap turns even with my weight somewhat forward. The King board above has similar rails, though not as pronounced and the effect is probably minimized with the blunt nose and tail. The Foote certainly doesn't carve like my 8'8" L41, but it does turn like something in the mid 9' range rather than a 10+ board. And of course with all that length and width stability isn't an issue.
I've certainly noticed the stability effect of having the board under water. My 6'11" foil board hasn't got a lot of volume in the nose, so if I'm not paying attention it sinks under water a few inches. It's stable like that, and I only fall off the board when I look down, see it's buried, and try to get it up to the surface. I'm learning to ignore the "problem" and just focus on getting into position to catch a wave. I discovered if I catch a wave with the nose buried that it makes no difference. The board still planes along even if the deck is awash and a quick pump outs me on the foil just fine. Most of the challenges of foiling have to do with learning what matters and what habits to break. This is a tough one, but watching Junya get onto an well-overhead wave with his board completely underwater helped me understand that a sunken board works fine--it's the frantic efforts to unsink it that toss me off.
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I've been surfing for the last couple of weeks with the new Infinity Blurr V2 7'8 x 25.5 with 79.5 liters.
I'm 1,80 and 73 kg. My previous board was the Infinity B-Line 7'11 x 27" with 85.6 liters (and I was used to surf with plus 95 liters boards).
My surf exploded when I started with the B-Line: less volume, great outline, thin rails and even thinner tail and nose.
Despite there was only a difference of 5 or 6 liters in volume (and when you're surfing with low volume board every liter counts), there's a huge difference in terms of width and specially outline, with a shortboard-like nose (I'm finding it great for critical lip manouvers), narrower tail and even thinner rails (like a shortboard).
The step rail as allowed to pack some extra volume on the center of the board without sacrificing performance and was the main reason for going for the Blurr V2.
Here's a few photos that show the step rail:
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The Infinity and Kings steps are much more pronounced than what I experienced on the JP. The JP seemed like such a good idea I wondered at the time why it wasn’t more common. It’s a more restrained approach, for less performance oriented board.
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What a great thread. How can a designer reduce the volume in a huge - compared to surfboards - sup?
Dome deck with thin rails.
Step Rails or K rails as explained to me by Ed Angulo.
Chines.
Angular knifey rails.
Have ordered an Infinity V2 Blurr with step rails.
Will report my experience.
Dave Daum and Scott Mckercher managed to sneak chines onto some boards that I ordered
Definitely easier to sink the rails, less stable in chop however.
I was opposed to the idea in theory, but they definitely worked in my King's Punisher - similar to the wedge; and both of the SMIK boards I own.
But these are bigger boards. May need supplemental Sinkah training from KDOG on the Blurr V2.
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Just sold my Sunova Shroom (regrettably) and I think it would be hard to find a more extreme stepped rail design. Mine was 7’9” at 104ltrs, and at 195lbs it was extremely stable. Rails completely underwater with a bit of water on deck. Enough displacement to float while keeping super thin rails in a very compact design. And the best part was no domed deck wrecking knees and ankles. In fact the most comfortable deck to stand on I’ve owned and absolutely contributed to its stability the way you can lock your feet in. https://youtu.be/Ciyx5V43Cxw
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I love that Shroom deck so much, it just makes sense. Why doesn't Burt do it on all his boards?
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I should add that yes, agree that rails under water help stabilization. However I was demo-zing a board that was way too much volume for me.
I wanted to point that out because I think a lot of folks are trying to keep high volume and thin the rails. That might not get you sunken rails and therefore you end up with what I’m talking about. It’s so crazy how you can’t simply change one element of a design without affecting others.
Remember that and be careful when buying. A board made for TD and a board made for me (Small dude) at the same length and width will likely be completely different designs and volumes.
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Yeah, back when that Southpoint board came out, people weren't really riding low volume boards yet, plus it was a pretty narrow shape.
For me at least, 120l is normally about deckpad a water line level. I've had a couple of custom board made now that were around 120L and fairly short, narrow and thick for their volume compared to most production boards. The problem has been that the rails felt too thick. For my next board I'm trying to figure out if step rails are the fix I'm looking for.
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If anyone in the San Diego or Orange County area has a Portal Phantom I could look at then I would appreciate you replying here:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=34665
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Digging up my old thread because I did end up scoring a nice little step railed board in a trade. This funky number is a 7'11x28.5x4.5 110L custom order from Coil Industries. Round nose, wing tailed, channels and step rails. a real zen hotdog.
I got this board because the guy who ordered it thought it was too small for him. The funny things is that I weight 10 pounds more and it was rock stable for me. The step rails on this board are really pinched but transition to real steep walls in the center. With enough weight you sink those rails straight to the deck and you maintain stability. without the weight you are balancing on thin rails 4 inches above water.
The thin rails work hold really well. Tons of fun. I need to sort out fins for this board but once we get that dialed in I think this will be gem.
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You scored dude! That's a looker 8)
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That is one seriously good looking board. I've never heard of Coil, but wow. If I could do composite work like that it's all I'd ever do.
I reread my post from back in March, and this summer learning to wingfoil has shown me even more clearly that a board that's sunken and not perfectly situated on the surface is not a problem--the board will take care of itself. It's my panic-y recovery efforts that toss me in the drink. The only board I surfed this summer was my Foote Triton with its trick rails. It made me look good, and even made me feel like I still know what I'm doing.
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Coil is based out of Florida and mostly does surfboards, but the former owner of Tropical Blends in Honolulu was a huge fan and ordered in a bunch of SUPs as well so they have a bit of a presence here in Oahu. I have no idea exactly what the composites in the board are, just that the whole board is glassed with a mesh layer that makes it feel like a golf ball and that they vac bag the snot out of them to get it light. I didn't get to weight this board before the pads went on, but the 'little sister' of this board was 12 lbs and this one isn't much more.
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Good looking board. Never knew they did SUPs’. I’ve been to the factory, but have not seen behind the secret door. They guard their tech closely.
FYI, if anyone remembers Hana Crew kiteboards, they are the same people. Also owns a killer Burrito shack.