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Stand Up Paddle => SUP General => Topic started by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 02:32:05 PM

Title: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2019, 02:32:05 PM
Not good news:

http://www.supracer.com/2019-pacific-paddle-games-cancelled/?fbclid=IwAR1HD0tNAUmw6ufNxem8wqepXLCP27nBgm-C-luV-oa3wsvH4EIXK9AAM1U

Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: PonoBill on March 21, 2019, 03:19:44 PM
It's an odd thing that organizers of some of the larger races, with some exceptions, don't seem to know where their money comes from. Having a lot of elite class racers show up does very little for the bottom line--the purse money generally exceeds or at least equals their entry fees. Having a lot of open class racers show up not only adds money since all they win are inexpensive trophies, but also adds spectators, the racers themselves and families and friends of the racers--who else is going to watch a SUP race? A healthy number of spectators attracts sponsors and merchandising booths.

So what do many organizers do? They treat the open class racers like second class citizens while they make a huge deal over the pros.

It's no surprise to me that the Gorge Paddle Challenge rose to the top. Superb organization, lots of love extended to the groms, the families, the open class racers. Fun courses and great care to optimize the events so conditions are the best the weekend can offer for the course and downwind races. And then of course there's the venue. In the week before the race the river is full of people downwinding. The shuttles are full, the conditions are generally excellent, and everyone gets all the smoking downwinders they can stand. The leadup to most races I've attended (a ridiculous number) is pretty much nothing.

I'm certainly not glad this happened. I've enjoyed all the racing I've done, and I loved going to SoCal for the week before the BOP and the PPG race to surf and see friends. I enjoyed the races much less after the BOP ended, but I still went. Last year was the first year I didn't race. I went surfing.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: TallDude on March 21, 2019, 06:22:51 PM
Once Sparky and Jerry lost interest, that was the beginning of the end of BOP and all that followed. Races every weekend in every different SoCal coastal town was crazy. That even rolled over into inland bodies of water. The Colorado river between AZ and CA was having multiple races. Rivers and lakes in NorCal same thing. I kept wondering,"is there that many racers?"
Actually, this year's HanoHano had a great turn out. Most of the pro's were there to receive their beer glass trophy. Same one everyone got. No podium, just toss it to Danny Ching over the crowd. I threw down $100. worth of raffle tickets to have a chance to win an OC-1. Didn't win, but did win a bunch of swag so I almost broke even (Anyone want a paddle bag?)
I think SoCal Racing series has been doing pretty good. $25 entrance fee gets you swag and a shirt. Aside from the heavy rain we've been experiencing this winter (dirty water) the numbers have been pretty good for racing. The die-hard racers are still at it and having fun. The BOP hang-over wore off, and in general the group of paddler who mostly paddle for fitness is seeing new faces. My perspective anyway.....
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: photofr on March 21, 2019, 11:44:07 PM
Here in France, I am seeing a crazy number of racer dropouts as well.

On the other hand, and super excited to see this: there is a staggering number of people getting into Surfskis.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: surf4food on March 22, 2019, 08:28:37 AM
Here in France, I am seeing a crazy number of racer dropouts as well.

On the other hand, and super excited to see this: there is a staggering number of people getting into Surfskis.

Interesting.  How about OC1s?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: JEG on March 22, 2019, 03:07:24 PM
if their not careful, there will be fewer participants in the future of sup racing  ::)
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: PonoBill on March 23, 2019, 02:21:22 AM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: burchas on March 23, 2019, 04:36:22 AM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on March 23, 2019, 05:25:13 AM
Yeah, I used to sit-down paddle long before I SUPed. It never really felt right. Sitting down to exercise is a bit weird all-round in fact. I guess some peopleís physiologies suit sitting down and some donít. Plus, what I liked about SUP was the unique viewpoint. Sit-down paddling now feels like a retrograde step to me, even if it is faster and more efficient. But maybe if SUP introduced you to paddling, then you have a different perspective from someone who paddled other craft before SUP, and made the switch.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 23, 2019, 05:56:14 AM
Yeah, I used to sit-down paddle long before I SUPed. It never really felt right. Sitting down to exercise is a bit weird all-round in fact. I guess some peopleís physiologies suit sitting down and some donít. Plus, what I liked about SUP was the unique viewpoint. Sit-down paddling now feels like a retrograde step to me, even if it is faster and more efficient.

It's funny as this is the complete opposite for me. The main reason I started in SUP was that its physical conditioning was far superior to all forms of sit down paddling. It's woefully inefficient and slow though.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: RideTheGlide on March 23, 2019, 06:53:46 AM
Yeah, I used to sit-down paddle long before I SUPed. It never really felt right. Sitting down to exercise is a bit weird all-round in fact. I guess some people’s physiologies suit sitting down and some don’t. Plus, what I liked about SUP was the unique viewpoint. Sit-down paddling now feels like a retrograde step to me, even if it is faster and more efficient.

It's funny as this is the complete opposite for me. The main reason I started in SUP was that its physical conditioning was far superior to all forms of sit down paddling. It's woefully inefficient and slow though.

I am not sure why you view that as the complete opposite. I agree with both of you to some degree, but not completely. Sit down did feel right when I was younger, especially whitewater kayaks. You don't just ride in a whitewater kayak, you wear it. But it doesn't feel right anymore; my back and hips burn when I can't move around, stand and stretch from time to time. My shoulders can't handle some of the motions, especially high braces (even after or maybe especially after both shoulders have been surgically repaired). Flat water kayaking where I don't have to high brace and can get out every few minutes is okay at best.

I like the superior exercise, viewpoint and personal comfort of SUP. If I have to pick one as the main reason, it would be comfort or at least the escape from discomfort. But if the other reasons weren't part of the equation I might not like it enough to do it regularly.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Cruisinby on March 23, 2019, 07:29:07 AM
Having fund-raiser races for different causes brings paddles of all levels together.    It's still a race , not a serious one, yet fun for all.   Junior life guard programs, coastal rescue organizations, cancer etc all benifit.    There is one every year on the Cental coastin Sept.   $40 dollar entrance fee yields you a nice shirt, a very good tri-tip lunch with all the fixins and good 6.5 mile open ocean paddle.   Everyone is smilling, all go home tired, sore, full of food and if the swell is up lots good stories.    Something to concider for those who like to throw races out there.

Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: surf4food on March 23, 2019, 09:03:28 AM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.

Sitting down on a surfski is much harder than standing on a SUP. 
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: TallDude on March 23, 2019, 10:20:41 AM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.

Sitting down on a surfski is much harder than standing on a SUP.
Surfski's, Foils, Kiting and windsurfing all have learning curves that will deter most people. OC-1's and SUP's are fun the first time. OC-1's are expensive, not usually for rent and awkward to store and handle. SUP easy easy fun.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 23, 2019, 01:00:20 PM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.

Sitting down on a surfski is much harder than standing on a SUP.
Surfski's, Foils, Kiting and windsurfing all have learning curves that will deter most people. OC-1's and SUP's are fun the first time. OC-1's are expensive, not usually for rent and awkward to store and handle. SUP easy easy fun.

I completely agree with this. This is why supís Leisure class has grown so quickly as the price of admission in terms of both skill and a basic board is pretty low.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: kayadogg on March 23, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.

Sitting down on a surfski is much harder than standing on a SUP.
Surfski's, Foils, Kiting and windsurfing all have learning curves that will deter most people. OC-1's and SUP's are fun the first time. OC-1's are expensive, not usually for rent and awkward to store and handle. SUP easy easy fun.

I completely agree with this. This is why supís Leisure class has grown so quickly as the price of admission in terms of both skill and a basic board is pretty low.

My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: RideTheGlide on March 23, 2019, 03:21:38 PM
My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.

I was confused from my whitewater days when you mentioned OC1. This is where my mind went:

https://vimeo.com/196364613

Then I poked around and saw the long outrigger boats playing in the ocean.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: TallDude on March 23, 2019, 03:54:07 PM
There is a ridiculously simple reason for that. Surfskis are fast, 14' SUPs are not. Surfskis are fast even if you weigh 230 pounds. 14' SUPs are not. Eliminate half of the likely market from competition and turn the sport into a slow race and people won't do it.

I'll pass, the whole sitting down idea just doesn't sit well with me :D isn't there a sit-down zone?  ??? Maybe not, sounds reprimanding. How would you make it great again?
Replicating Gorge Paddle Challenge is highly unlikely.

Sitting down on a surfski is much harder than standing on a SUP.
Surfski's, Foils, Kiting and windsurfing all have learning curves that will deter most people. OC-1's and SUP's are fun the first time. OC-1's are expensive, not usually for rent and awkward to store and handle. SUP easy easy fun.

I completely agree with this. This is why supís Leisure class has grown so quickly as the price of admission in terms of both skill and a basic board is pretty low.

My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.
Boston Outrigger Racing Association? Maybe someone in that group?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: PT Woody on March 23, 2019, 04:50:45 PM
End of PPG is sad especially as it confines surf or BoP racing from the peak level of the sport to minor status. Aside from the largely irrelevant ISA race and preceding qualification, is there a significant SUP event in the world that involves surf and buoy turns as the major defining factor?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 25, 2019, 01:31:21 AM
End of PPG is sad especially as it confines surf or BoP racing from the peak level of the sport to minor status. Aside from the largely irrelevant ISA race and preceding qualification, is there a significant SUP event in the world that involves surf and buoy turns as the major defining factor?

Heavy Water ? (admittedly, that's quite exclusive).
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on March 25, 2019, 04:20:33 AM
End of PPG is sad especially as it confines surf or BoP racing from the peak level of the sport to minor status. Aside from the largely irrelevant ISA race and preceding qualification, is there a significant SUP event in the world that involves surf and buoy turns as the major defining factor?

Heavy Water ? (admittedly, that's quite exclusive).
Thatís not really a significant event. Itís just a marketing oddity. 99.99% of SUPers wonít even be aware of Heavy Water. And itís certainly not going to be a model for amateur participation.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: stoneaxe on March 25, 2019, 04:28:26 AM
CCBC is still here. I think we might see a bump in participation this year but we've never been huge as events go.

I'm going to be doing some SUP 101 clinics on the local beaches and getting some folks out for coastal explorations. Even though I retired from the board of the CCBC I still want to do my part to get folks involved and I've got a good number of local folks expressing interest....easy when its free...:). I'm sure I'll at least get some to join the party.
I'm planning on doing the CCBC again this year. Using this trip to Maui to kick off training (so don't kill me bro).
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: photofr on March 25, 2019, 04:56:00 AM
Here in France, I am seeing a crazy number of racer dropouts as well.

On the other hand, and super excited to see this: there is a staggering number of people getting into Surfskis.

Interesting.  How about OC1s?

YES - OC1 is seemingly increasing in France as well.
I saw this trends a few years back: the more people got into SUP, the more people eventually turned to other more efficient "tools" like surfskis and Outriggers. Those numbers are tiny though, but they do add up.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: PonoBill on March 25, 2019, 10:59:08 AM

My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.

Looks around some locally, dog. Chances are there is a outrigger club somewhere in your area. Google might not be all that helpful, until just recently if you googled Hood River Outrigger Canoe Club you wouldn't find anything. I don't paddle OC6 in Maui, but I DO paddle twice a week in Hood River. We have a very active club with three standard and two unlimited OC6s as well as a lot of people in the small boat group doing OC1 and 2, as well as surfskis. Hood River is 150 miles from the ocean and we have about a hundred people in our club. Anyplace that is right on the ocean seems more likely to be into it.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 25, 2019, 01:18:58 PM
End of PPG is sad especially as it confines surf or BoP racing from the peak level of the sport to minor status. Aside from the largely irrelevant ISA race and preceding qualification, is there a significant SUP event in the world that involves surf and buoy turns as the major defining factor?

Heavy Water ? (admittedly, that's quite exclusive).
Thatís not really a significant event. Itís just a marketing oddity. 99.99% of SUPers wonít even be aware of Heavy Water. And itís certainly not going to be a model for amateur participation.

I was trying to be kind !  ;D (BOP style racing really is a dead duck)
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on March 25, 2019, 01:21:46 PM
Here in France, I am seeing a crazy number of racer dropouts as well.

On the other hand, and super excited to see this: there is a staggering number of people getting into Surfskis.

Interesting.  How about OC1s?

in the UK, a lot of the early serious SUP racers have now moved onto OC1 stuff instead. In 2019, the first OC1 open water national series will run (and it has had an inland winter sprint series for a few years now).

As for surfski's it has been growing slowly and steadily for a few years. It still only sees around 50 boats at most events but its stable and isn't seen as a fashion fad (unlike SUP).
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: addapost on March 25, 2019, 02:41:27 PM
My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.
Call Sam at Osprey in Westport. She has one and would know of any active groups or other folks. She loves hers.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: OkiWild on March 25, 2019, 05:03:31 PM
It's funny as this is the complete opposite for me. The main reason I started in SUP was that its physical conditioning was far superior to all forms of sit down paddling. It's woefully inefficient and slow though.

Same. That and for some reason, whenever I put a sea kayak in the water, I feel naked without ten-miles of gear... And then seeing all the things I never noticed when sitting in a kayak.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 04:32:24 AM
For many years, athletes got into surfskis when they reached 39-45 years of age. Not much has changed there, except that I am also seeing a healthy dose of younger paddlers getting into the sport as well.

That's just bonus -
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on March 26, 2019, 05:17:30 AM
It's funny as this is the complete opposite for me. The main reason I started in SUP was that its physical conditioning was far superior to all forms of sit down paddling. It's woefully inefficient and slow though.

Same. That and for some reason, whenever I put a sea kayak in the water, I feel naked without ten-miles of gear... And then seeing all the things I never noticed when sitting in a kayak.
Yes, these are probably the three main reasons for the success of SUP (better for fitness, simplicity, viewpoint) alongside the availability of cheap inflatables. Others are that the standing position is more flattering, that SUPers wear more stylish clothes (and that you look better in a bikini standing up than sitting down), the gear is lighter, and a SUP feels safer because if you capsize in a canoe or kayak etc and are uskilled you are then in a whole mess of trouble. On a SUP you just clamber back on, no drama.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: photofr on March 26, 2019, 07:51:01 AM
While I don't think that SUP Racing is growing, I do think that SUP involvement is still growing. Thus, the sport could be said to still be growing.

Still, I wish that people would learn how to climb back on their boards... because what I am seeing in real life is nothing short of "scary". At least, on a surfski, if you can't get back on, you don't even leave the shoreline. You are usually thought to learn to remount, and practice a bunch. Then we are thought to learn to brace. And... eventually, we learn to paddle better, while still practicing remounts. Yes, the learning curb is steeper on a ski, a lot steeper actually, but there are pros and cons to both there.

I find SUP helps me with my surfski, and to my great surprise, surfski REALLY enhances my SUP performance. So, take it for what it's worth - but I see the same thing with Boothy et al. where they come from surfski / kayak before arriving to the SUP world.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: kayadogg on March 26, 2019, 07:20:16 PM
My wife and I had the pleasure of paddling an OC6 in Maui last week with some friends  and had an absolute blast. So much so that I started looking for an OC1 for home. We live about a 50 yard walk from Narragansett Bay and storage isnít a problem so I thought it would be fun to have one at the house. The problem Iím having is actually tracking down one to buy. Closest one I could find was in North Carolina. Kind of a bummer but Iíll continue to keep my eyes open. If anyone here knows anyone within the northeast that has one they would be willing to part with, please let me know. An OC2 would be fine too but I know chances of that are even more unlikely.
Call Sam at Osprey in Westport. She has one and would know of any active groups or other folks. She loves hers.

Thanks Jim, good to know. Iíll get in touch with her.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: mastman on March 28, 2019, 09:53:52 AM
The two hardest things I've ever done : 1) racing my 14' board out through the surf at the Salt Creek BOP; and 2) Racing upwind in heavy chop in last year's PPG.  As hard as it is to train and "compete" (I've never even been in the top half), it sure has been fun racing every year.  I'll miss it.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: OkiWild on March 28, 2019, 05:16:24 PM
It's definitely growing here. Nothing like the big events, but more and more races, with people coming from all over Japan to compete. There looks to be two 30km island-hop down winders this year, and more than a few flat water races.

I'm not a competitor. I do DW for fun, and flat water for exercise. But I find it wonderful how fast the sport is still growing.   
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: surf4food on March 28, 2019, 05:31:25 PM
If the PPGs DO come back next year, perhaps include prone, OC1/2, surfski, and put more focus on open SUP than the past few years.  So make in an overall ocean paddle event.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: SUPuFaka on April 09, 2019, 06:28:22 PM
a SUP race event partnered with a wave riding division and maybe even supsquatch and some other fun events thrown in would be great .....it needs to be OHANA based not pros .....I went to the app world surf tour in hawaii at sunset beach and there was literally 3 people who werent related to racers actually watching the event.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 09, 2019, 07:49:59 PM
Did anyone watch the Air France Paddle Festival in Tahiti? Wow, a lot of those paddlers seemed to be suffering on their tippy boards in that race... I was watching it thinking ďyouíd be a lot faster on a more stable board...Ē. Falls all over the place, which is a PITA if you are in a dugout.

http://www.supracer.com/2019-air-france-paddle-festival-tahiti-live-stream/
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Luc Benac on April 09, 2019, 08:17:12 PM
Did anyone watch the Air France Paddle Festival in Tahiti? Wow, a lot of those paddlers seemed to be suffering on their tippy boards in that race... I was watching it thinking ďyouíd be a lot faster on a more stable board...Ē. Falls all over the place, which is a PITA if you are in a dugout.

http://www.supracer.com/2019-air-france-paddle-festival-tahiti-live-stream/

Yes I was. At the end the fourth paddler on the Sunova dugout was really having a difficult time with his legs shots and the boats' wakes.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: burchas on April 10, 2019, 06:29:03 AM
Yes, that was a struggle for sure. A lot of swimming involved, didn't know it's a biathlon :D 
T2 on the other hand was doing well, does anyone know what width was he on?

I think Stevie on the Sunova at fifth place did not finish, at least not in the top 10.
at one point he landed on his ass, maybe hurt his nuts on the sidewalls?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 10, 2019, 06:56:57 AM
Yes, that was a struggle for sure. A lot of swimming involved, didn't know it's a biathlon :D 
T2 on the other hand was doing well, does anyone know what width was he on?

I think Stevie on the Sunova at fifth place did not finish, at least not in the top 10.
at one point he landed on his ass, maybe hurt his nuts on the sidewalls?
Yeah. Watching him was a perfect example of my own experiences of dugouts in messy conditions. Iíve never really understood why people claim that dugouts are good for confused waters. In my experience those high sidewalls catch every bump that comes along, and you get a 2-axis pendulum effect, with both pitch and roll happening in every combination: extremely hard to cope with that and keep a steady paddle rhythm.

The SIC RS seemed to be coping OK with those conditions. Were there any Naish Malikos there?

Listening to Yuka, it sounds like you needed a board that went upwind well, as well.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Luc Benac on April 10, 2019, 07:08:38 AM
Yeah. Watching him was a perfect example of my own experiences of dugouts in messy conditions. Iíve never really understood why people claim that dugouts are good for confused waters. In my experience those high sidewalls catch every bump that comes along, and you get a 2-axis pendulum effect, with both pitch and roll happening in every combination: extremely hard to cope with that and keep a steady paddle rhythm.

My experience with dugouts is actually very limited - my Ace-GT - and it will handle confused water very well.
I should try other dugouts to compare as it might make me look at my Ace-GT with very fond eyes :-)

Of course the Ace-GT is 27" wide and one of a kind. A 23" wide dugout should be for sure another kettle of fish altogether.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Jacko on April 10, 2019, 03:36:41 PM
Pretty sure i heard Ti2 on a 22.5 wide, and i think a dugout board would have been the perfect choice for that race. I think Steeve just lost his legs at the end and after 24km in that heat and wobbly water i could understand why.
Those are the waters where dugout boards work best and 100% if i had a dugout or a flat deck on the beach i would take the dugout every time.
For me that looks like a tough race and just staying hydrated would be a huge step to placing well.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: JEG on April 10, 2019, 05:27:00 PM
good race to watch though but at 24km on that heat that's tuff. Flat deck or dugout is a matter of choice. I just can't believe how T2 on a 22.5 wide board is soo smooth. What happened to the big name racers like booty and the girls. I heard the drug testers were there to keep things honest.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: burchas on April 10, 2019, 05:53:21 PM
Interestingly enough though, 1st and 2nd women were on a flat/slightly recessed deck boards.
Olivia did pretty well on your board considering that's a board she wasn't accustomed to, that's quite a score.

I think Steeve just lost his legs at the end and after 24km in that heat and wobbly water i could understand why.

That's usually associated with the "rolly" design of these dugouts, combine that with how narrow they become and you
can see why it's a lot more common to see elites struggling. That race is a clear case where a 4Drive setup would benefit
those narrow boards.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Jacko on April 10, 2019, 08:38:04 PM
What happened to the big name racers like booty and the girls. I heard the drug testers were there to keep things honest.

I think budgets might have played a part for quite a few racers as i am sure budgets are a little tighter this year. Might be a factor in a few races this year!

Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: comeu on April 11, 2019, 08:30:07 AM
What happened to the big name racers like booty and the girls. I heard the drug testers were there to keep things honest.

I think budgets might have played a part for quite a few racers as i am sure budgets are a little tighter this year. Might be a factor in a few races this year!
After what happened last year itís easy to understand why M.Booth wasnít there...

Iím sure the fact that there were drug tests as nothing to do with the absence of some big names.

Steeve Teihotaata wrote on FB that he collapsed close to the finish line, he had no more water before the first half of the race. I donít think the fact he rode a dugout as much to do with his failing.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: JEG on April 11, 2019, 02:37:06 PM
I think they should think about the conditions then decide the race destance and in that heat it should be half to 12km.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 11, 2019, 10:00:54 PM
I think they should think about the conditions then decide the race destance and in that heat it should be half to 12km.
That sounds sensible. I wonder how the rank positions differed at the full distance from the ones at the halfway mark? My guess is that they werenít greatly different, and in fact the finishes of the race might have been even more exciting if it had only been 12k.

If itís so hot and humid that youíve got Tahitians wilting in the heat, then maybe something isnít quite right. The people from cold climates would likely be at a huge disadvantage. Maybe that is one reason that Yuka was able to pass Olivia, and pull away, so easily?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2019, 01:17:01 AM
Iím sure the fact that there were drug tests has nothing to do with the absence of some big names.


A controversial claim there.......
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2019, 01:19:11 AM
I think they should think about the conditions then decide the race distance and in that heat it should be half to 12km.
That sounds sensible. I wonder how the rank positions differed at the full distance from the ones at the halfway mark? My guess is that they werenít greatly different, and in fact the finishes of the race might have been even more exciting if it had only been 12k.

If itís so hot and humid that youíve got Tahitians wilting in the heat, then maybe something isnít quite right. The people from cold climates would likely be at a huge disadvantage. Maybe that is one reason that Yuka was able to pass Olivia, and pull away, so easily?

In my view, it's just poor preparation on the part of the athletes. There are plenty of sports that have to contend with such hot/humid conditions but they just equip and fuel appropriately. What likely happened is that the weather was extreme and the athletes merely equipped themselves as they would do in most races rather than doing their homework. I don't have a lot of sympathy in that case.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: addapost on April 12, 2019, 03:33:02 AM
Iím sure the fact that there were drug tests has nothing to do with the absence of some big names.


A controversial claim there.......
Not exactly sure what you mean by his opinion being controversial. But if you disagree with that opinion I am with you 100%. I took his statement to be extremely sarcastic.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 12, 2019, 03:58:39 AM
I think they should think about the conditions then decide the race distance and in that heat it should be half to 12km.
That sounds sensible. I wonder how the rank positions differed at the full distance from the ones at the halfway mark? My guess is that they werenít greatly different, and in fact the finishes of the race might have been even more exciting if it had only been 12k.

If itís so hot and humid that youíve got Tahitians wilting in the heat, then maybe something isnít quite right. The people from cold climates would likely be at a huge disadvantage. Maybe that is one reason that Yuka was able to pass Olivia, and pull away, so easily?

In my view, it's just poor preparation on the part of the athletes. There are plenty of sports that have to contend with such hot/humid conditions but they just equip and fuel appropriately. What likely happened is that the weather was extreme and the athletes merely equipped themselves as they would do in most races rather than doing their homework. I don't have a lot of sympathy in that case.
You might be right, although it is odd that elite *locals* who are world-class watermen would not know what they require for such a course.

But what is gained by having a race that is 24kms rather than 12 (apart from putting amateurs off racing because few people have the time to train for such long events)?
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2019, 06:37:42 AM

You might be right, although it is odd that elite *locals* who are world-class watermen would not know what they require for such a course.

But what is gained by having a race that is 24kms rather than 12 (apart from putting amateurs off racing because few people have the time to train for such long events)?

The problem though is that being a good waterman isn't the same as being a good athlete. For example, if the conditions are hot, relying on water alone for fluid intake (as one account mentions) is like something out of the dark ages for conditions this severe. It just needs time for the laidback nature of SUP to catch up with other sports so that paddlers look after themselves holistically - not just in terms of technical skill.

As to your second point, you're basically comparing a race of 1-1.5 hours to 2-3 hours. Its different in terms of its demands (the shorter one will be roughly about 5% higher in terms of exercise intensity). As you say, that would put off amateurs and for paddlers it requires a bit more volume to get the best out of it. I personally hate races of that length in any sport but if I were doing them, I'd need sessions of 3-4 hours in length behind me. Sod that.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: yugi on April 12, 2019, 08:11:52 AM

The problem though is that being a good waterman isn't the same as being a good athlete. For example, if the conditions are hot, relying on water alone for fluid intake (as one account mentions) is like something out of the dark ages for conditions this severe. It just needs time for the laidback nature of SUP to catch up with other sports so that paddlers look after themselves holistically - not just in terms of technical skill.

...
That's only according to "your" science.

There are many different theories on nutrition, and many examples of natives exploding this theories.

OK, when I say natives you think of Tarahumara indians, Pokot, Kalahari bushmen, etc. There's a local (good old continental european white) guy here I know who still holds the record for the ascent&descent of Everest. He does, well did, >8000m summits in a day going fast and light with only a snickers bar and 1/2 a liter of water.

Save your breath. He'll be the first to admit it isn't what your science advises. He's 70 now and I don't think you're going change him.

There are a ton of outliers. Point being nutrition is personal and it's mostly about reservoirs of strength and digging deep into potential. As the village kids here have shown over and over (a few world champions in ultra endurance sports here, and I guarantee you they eat more cheese on a weekly basis than you could ever imagine). They'll be the first to tell you it's all in the training.

I think Titou played it smart resting at home in slightly cooler conditions and arriving the night before the race. He has a degree in sports coaching BTW.



As to your second point, you're basically comparing a race of 1-1.5 hours to 2-3 hours. Its different in terms of its demands (the shorter one will be roughly about 5% higher in terms of exercise intensity). As you say, that would put off amateurs and for paddlers it requires a bit more volume to get the best out of it. I personally hate races of that length in any sport but if I were doing them, I'd need sessions of 3-4 hours in length behind me. Sod that.

... and there I was subscribing to the theory you only need to train half as much as race day.

[prefer mine just BTW]
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: ukgm on April 12, 2019, 12:04:58 PM

The problem though is that being a good waterman isn't the same as being a good athlete. For example, if the conditions are hot, relying on water alone for fluid intake (as one account mentions) is like something out of the dark ages for conditions this severe. It just needs time for the laidback nature of SUP to catch up with other sports so that paddlers look after themselves holistically - not just in terms of technical skill.

...
That's only according to "your" science.

There are many different theories on nutrition, and many examples of natives exploding this theories.

OK, when I say natives you think of Tarahumara indians, Pokot, Kalahari bushmen, etc. There's a local (good old continental european white) guy here I know who still holds the record for the ascent&descent of Everest. He does, well did, >8000m summits in a day going fast and light with only a snickers bar and 1/2 a liter of water.

Save your breath. He'll be the first to admit it isn't what your science advises. He's 70 now and I don't think you're going change him.

There are a ton of outliers. Point being nutrition is personal and it's mostly about reservoirs of strength and digging deep into potential. As the village kids here have shown over and over (a few world champions in ultra endurance sports here, and I guarantee you they eat more cheese on a weekly basis than you could ever imagine). They'll be the first to tell you it's all in the training.

I think Titou played it smart resting at home in slightly cooler conditions and arriving the night before the race. He has a degree in sports coaching BTW.



As to your second point, you're basically comparing a race of 1-1.5 hours to 2-3 hours. Its different in terms of its demands (the shorter one will be roughly about 5% higher in terms of exercise intensity). As you say, that would put off amateurs and for paddlers it requires a bit more volume to get the best out of it. I personally hate races of that length in any sport but if I were doing them, I'd need sessions of 3-4 hours in length behind me. Sod that.

... and there I was subscribing to the theory you only need to train half as much as race day.

[prefer mine just BTW]

Címon Yugi. You know as well as I do that the science on nutrition is pretty much universally published and understood - even if its actual application needs to be tailored slightly to an athlete. Itís not snake oil. If these guys are going out there on water without even experimenting with modern fluid nutrition they are fools to themselves. Some of the outliers I suspect are better at utilising fat for fuel.

As for training distances - itís the difference between completing and maximising your aerobic engine development really. For example, the 2012 GB Team Pursuit track cycling squad (who typically raced over 4 minutes), I know were still putting in some rides of upto 6 hours in length to develop their engine as much as they could.

Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: Area 10 on April 12, 2019, 01:06:57 PM
And donít forget that by age 14 a serious competitive swimmer will be swimming something like 40 miles a week (plus extra gym work) - and thatís training for a race that might only be 100 metres long!

That a ratio of race distance to weekly training distance of around 640x.

So to train to an equivalent level for a 23km SUP race, SUP paddlers would have to be paddling over 9000 miles *a week* :)
 
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: photofr on April 13, 2019, 05:11:32 AM
While we are all different, and while I recommend and even encourage people to turn to modern nutrition and proper hydration, I have to admit that I have been using a technique that has proven very beneficial to me.

In the 90's:
I used to fonction on about 1 liter of water for every hour of intense exercise.
Since I enjoyed long distance the most, that meant an average of 3 hours of paddling, and often 4 to 5 hours.
That much time on the water meant: 4 to 6 litres of water that I have to take onboard.
It was insane!!!

In the early 2000's:
I found a different way: fast & light was my new motto.
On extreme events, I would saturate myself with water (the night before).
3.5 hours of paddling now meant only 1/2 a liter of water to carry with me.
That meant only about 500 grams of extra weight.
The result: it REALLY worked to my advantage.

CAREFUL:
I didn't do it overnight.
I was foolish enough to do it on my own - but I recommend you get monitored before changing anything.
Do not make a drastic change OVERNIGHT (make small steps).

Today, I can paddle the same way (at about 85-90% effort) and still use less than 1/2 a liter of water for 2, 3, or even 4 hours.

Food intake (and the right food) is key - if you are going to dehydrate yourself so much.

Oscar C. uses a similar method - but I am not sure how he does it being twice my weight (and height). You'd have to ask his secret, but from time to time, he goes 3.5 hours on 200cl of water - just before winning a race.

Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: yugi on April 13, 2019, 11:23:14 AM
Thanks for the formula, A10. I'll keep that in mind if ever I plan to do a marathon. I'll run an average of 2400 miles a day. Every day. Nice.

A10 and Photofr, you illustrated well what I was trying to say.
Title: Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....
Post by: burchas on April 13, 2019, 12:34:00 PM
Thanks for the formula, A10. I'll keep that in mind if ever I plan to do a marathon. I'll run an average of 2400 miles a day. Every day. Nice.

Don't dismiss it like that yugi, if you'd smoke what they do you'll be just as able :D
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