Standup Zone Forum

The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: JEG on March 19, 2019, 03:30:17 PM

Title: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 19, 2019, 03:30:17 PM
new to SUP foil but I surf SUP as a beginner to intermediate on 8x30 115L board and I weight 80kg 5'6".

What board size would you recommend and what size foil and anything that I miss to ask and need?
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: frenchfoiler on March 19, 2019, 03:49:38 PM
Hi Jeg, where are you located ?
I recommand you go as short as possible but keep in mind you need to be comfortable. So at least the same width even wider and more volume than your sup.
I would say between 7' and 7'6.
It is hard to find those boards in the market (chinese production board are usually too long and too heavy...).
I would go custom, if you are in southern California, Kings have a good experience making custom foil sup, same thing with Brawner (San Clemente).
The combo Gofoil IWA/M200 is one the best option for sure.

So yes it is pricey but worth it.

For sup foiling you need to be comfortable paddling surf stance to catch the wave, and you need to able to go straight paddling on one side. So I would recommand you work on this on your current board (for exemple you can put really small fins so you will have to get used to the row of a smaller board).
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: PonoBill on March 19, 2019, 04:37:44 PM
At your weight you can go pretty small, and small is easier once you get it in the air--and there's the rub. You'll find a small foil board hard to stand on initially, simply because they move very differently from a normal SUP. No surprise, there's a big wing and mast under the water moving the board in strange ways. Ultimately, that wing and mast adds a huge amount of stability, but you have to get used to the way that stability is delivered. Today on several occasions I had my board tilted by chop at an angle that would be unrecoverable on a SUP. You get used to pulling back from that precipice, but it takes time to know you don't need to fall off when half the board is tilted underwater.

If you go small--say 6' X 28" you will be falling off and cursing me for a week or so, but then you'll be OK. A safer bet initially is short and wide--say 6'5" X 31", but you'll find that a bit challenging to paddle straight and therefore hard to catch waves with. Like paddling a manhole cover.

Anything you get that is usable once you learn the basics will be very uncomfortable at first. A comfortable board will foil poorly and requires much more work to manage pitch.

Even Mr. Fugly 7'2" X 32.5" was uncomfortable at first. I fell off the back a thousand times. I'm now getting used to a smaller version of the same design at 6"11" X 30.5" and I'm back to falling off for no appurtenant reason. It's simply part of the deal. I weigh 235 and I'm 72, which is significant only in that my balance is not as good as someone in their 50's. If I can manage a board under 7' then anyone can. At your weight and height I'd consider 6' X 28" to be a big board.

M200/Iwa is a great choice but I'd go M200/Iwa/Kai and the 29" mast at your weight. That will give you two stabilizer sizes to play with which extends the range of all three front wings. M200 will be your goto wing at first, but you'll switch to Iwa/Kai as soon as you start learning to turn. 29" mast is just a better mast. The 24" is a bit flexy. I'll probably never use mine again.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 20, 2019, 01:51:27 PM
thanks for the feedback frenchfoiler & PonoBill.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Evan Lloyd on March 20, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
Start by watching the Blue Planet vídeos on YouTube. Robert does a great job explaining everything you need to know. I’ve learned so much from those videos. Lots of boards and foils to choose from. Stick with what folks on here are recommending. Just like surfing, once you get comfortable you’ll want a shorter board so don’t go crazy on your first purchase. I went from a 8-0 to a 6-2 in a couple months. Still trying to sell the 8-0. Lol.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 21, 2019, 04:15:55 PM
I'm looking into board's in 7s +/-
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Califoilia on March 23, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
I'm looking into board's in 7s +/-
Just for comparison - I'm 6'1" @ 90kg, and started on a 7'3"x28x4.5" (currently on a 6'0"x29x4.75") - and I'd recommend you stay right at that 7' mark, and better yet....as PB suggested, I'd concur with going more towards the 6'0" to 6'6" range. But I'd go no wider than 29" on any of them, as foil boards are much more stable and easier to paddle with the big "keel" hanging underneath them than a same sized SUP, so wide is not really all the necessary....IMO.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 24, 2019, 12:42:15 AM
PB & SanoSlatchSup, What do you think of the 1st generation foil board 7'3"x30"x3.75" (105L) that doesnt have the new generation foil board's Step Tail & bevelled Rails?
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Califoilia on March 24, 2019, 09:51:08 AM
I think you'll outgrow it quickly, have a difficult time reselling it, and wishing you had bought something smaller, and more current originally.

Unless hanging onto boards you don't use is cool with you (which I have a tendency to do as well :) ), and don't mind buying another after your first 5-15 sessions with that board. JMO naturally.

Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Beasho on March 24, 2019, 12:02:12 PM
I have a slightly different opinion.

I started out with an 8' x 32" L41 modified with Tuttle.  It would be too big now.

Scaled down to 7' 4" L41 Shown and to 6' 6" Easy Foiler by BluePlanet. 

Once I got used to the 6' 6" I thought I would NOT want to go back to the 7' 4".  Until my Easy Foiler got water logged and I started to use the 7' 4" board again.

This board is 100% better in big waves and choppy conditions.  I have cursed myself when the conditions are big e.g. 7 feet to 15 feet or wind chopped from the night before or >> 10 mph and I am on my 6' 6". 

Not many people are talking about this but there becomes a separation where a board like this is similar to a big wave gun.  Add the tall mast and this thing is a cross-over learning board and advanced board. 

Here is an example of a wave I was foiling with Jeff Clark.  I filmed this wave thinking Jeff would take off.  He went over the top.  Then I realized I was going to get cleaned UP.  Unless, I turned and went for it.  I caught this wave on the blue board with the tall mast.  Although it was a whitewater takeoff this shows an example of what / when a bigger board can be better with a foil.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Evan Lloyd on March 24, 2019, 02:07:35 PM
Beasho, those waves are massive for foiling. I’d guess that less than 5% of the guys foiling are riding waves that big. I need to get back up to HMB and give that a try. I know you guys are getting crazy long rides. You have a really cool setup out there. Looks fun and slightly terrifying.

Evan
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: PonoBill on March 24, 2019, 03:44:45 PM
PB & SanoSlatchSup, What do you think of the 1st generation foil board 7'3"x30"x3.75" (105L) that doesnt have the new generation foil board's Step Tail & bevelled Rails?

I have one of the Jimmy Lewis hovercraft boards--an 8'5" X something. They are fine for stability but harder to get off the water. There's a lot of tail volume behind the mast that keeps you from pushing the tail down and the nose up. You can catch waves but you won't really get the little pop-up pump that most folks develop pretty quickly if they start off with a bevel-tailed board. I think that board actually foced me into a bad habit of taking off flat and straight rather than picking the nose up and turning across the wave on the drop. Many sessions later I'm still working on staying high on the wave by turning as soon as I get power and lift. People overcome that stuff, there's a guy I foil with often that has a hovercraft that he can pump the hell out of, but why start off with something that will teach you bad habits. The current generation boards get off the water quick and clean, and can turn sharper even when you don't really have them high enough.

Beasho, I DO know what you mean, I'm very tempted to do a long, narrow foilboard for bigger waves. One thing Mr. Fugly did for me is make me appreciate larger waves. It's much harder to drop into a big wave on my 6'10" Kalama with essentially the same design as my 7'2. Part of it is the greater volume in Fugly's nose which keeps it from burying on a late, steep drop, but part is that it just paddles faster. Fugly does fine on overhead plus, and I feel confident on big powerful waves with it. The 6'10" not so much. I have a 9' Foote SUP surfboard that I think would make a great board for bigger days
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 24, 2019, 04:34:20 PM
thanks Beasho & PB, I guess there's a reason why they created 2nd generation foil board's and correct length of the board is another thing to consider.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: SUPeter on March 25, 2019, 04:03:28 AM
BEASHO, I could not agree more.  My 7' 2" is the go to board when conditions are big and/or choppy.  My 6' Fugly only comes out to play when its small and calm.  Maybe I'm just not used to it yet, but it always feels harder when conditions overwhelm it and me. 
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: WindJunkie on March 25, 2019, 12:02:43 PM
This is a hard question to answer without seeing your balance abilities and the type of conditions you'll be in.  If you have great balance and glass conditions you'll need less board. 

Everyone is progressing down to smaller boards but, starting out, you want wave count to get flight time.  I would recommend going with a bigger board initially that has some glide to help get into waves easy.  The foil does stabilize the board so you don't need that much width.  You're a fairly light person and something in the 6-6 to 7-0 range would still give some glide.  If you're already feeling good at 115 liters, it's probably a good starting point. 

All that being said and it sounds like you have interest or availability of Jimmy Lewis boards, probably the 6-5 flying v would be a good fit.  The 6-11 seems like too much volume for you even though the glide would be better.  I'm a bit heavier than you but the 6-11 was a wave catching machine for me. 
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: Beasho on March 25, 2019, 12:38:12 PM
Less talk here of Foils BUT we all learned 2 years ago on the Kai Foil. I might never use the KAI foil again in Surf. 

Some of the difficulty of learning to fly was learning on TOO SMALL a foil. 

The GoFoil IWA sized wing is the perfect size for DOING everything on a SUP-Foil board.  It can be the Go-To wing in waves from 4 to 15 feet.  Just move your foot placement and switch out to a smaller tail and the IWA can do almost everything (given today's neophyte perspective).

The Maliko 200 is ideal in waves of 1 ft to 5.5 feet. 

The period of the wave also matters.  On the East coast of the US I could comfortably fly the Maliko 200 in almost all wave conditions because wave periods during the summer were typically 6 to 10 seconds, short period slow waves.  The IWA was lackluster and couldn't fly. 

On the West coast of the US where we get longer period >= 13 seconds waves the IWA is the preferred wing.  The Maliko 200 can struggle to keep pace with the wave if it is small but longer period fast moving wave.   
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: PonoBill on March 25, 2019, 01:05:25 PM
True that^^, even at my weight the Iwa is my goto now. The speed is a substantial jump from the M200. I still use my M200 in punky waves, but I miss the speed, which is currently my only hope for staying in the energy since I'm still not getting high enough, soon enough.
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: JEG on March 25, 2019, 02:26:06 PM
thanks WindJunkie, I'm looking at either of these two board. I understand that the 7'5x30 would be ideal to learn because you can paddle easily and the foil count is better but maybe will have to sell the 7'5 later on once my skill improves and buy 6'11.
The liters difference on each board is a lot and I get the feeling that maybe the 7'5 might be too much of a large side and the 6'11 122ltrs almost match my sup surfboard of 115ltrs and I'm hoping the foil will add that extra stability and drag. I have ridden 7'11x28 vanguard sup shape board in the past and that felt nice and whippy but we're talking about foiling now. Maybe I'll have both and buy 7'5 1st then 6'11 later-on  :)

- 6’11” X 29″,  4 3/8″ thick, 122 liters
- 7’5″ X 30″,  4 5/8″ thick, 152 liters
Title: Re: new to foil world
Post by: jondrums on March 25, 2019, 05:39:39 PM

The period of the wave also matters.  On the East coast of the US I could comfortably fly the Maliko 200 in almost all wave conditions because wave periods during the summer were typically 6 to 10 seconds, short period slow waves.  The IWA was lackluster and couldn't fly. 

On the West coast of the US where we get longer period >= 13 seconds waves the IWA is the preferred wing.  The Maliko 200 can struggle to keep pace with the wave if it is small but longer period fast moving wave.

I use IWA and 200 also.  This is incredibly good advice which you would not see anywhere else, but I have found to be absolutely true.    There is something else though, it depends a lot on the specific wave and how steep it is and how well it progresses right-to-left (or left-to-right).  Because we don't ride waves straight to the beach, it is possible to ride fast on a short period wave or slow on a long period wave by cutting harder (or not) across the face. 

In general, if I think I am going to have to ride a wave quickly I use the IWA.  The 200 is great for more relaxed rides that aren't as fast.  Honestly, it kind of feels like a shortboard/longboard kind of difference.
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