Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: toolate on February 03, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
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I surf a JL stun gun now for 2 years. I used to think " why did they put the kick pad so far back, i'll never get on that except in the steepest waves" (admittedly the SG seems to be FOR steep waves.)
But over time i find i am back there more and more. Wondering what accounts for that ? I mean obviously technique is getting better but how could that slow learning curve for me have been speeded up?
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Supboarder the mag has a good vid on that topic.
I am sure there are others!
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It's a funny thing.
On my 14'r, I get back to the stomper on every turn...
but on my 9'4 , I never do.
Necessity most likely in my case... the 14 won't turn unless I am at the tail,
but my 9'4 turns really well with my back foot on the rail, over the side bite.
I also suspect that on my 9'4, standing all the way back on the stomper stalls the board.
A person my height, but 50 lbs lighter may have the same stance as me, but on a smaller board, his back foot will be on the stomper and his front will be near the handle, so no stalling.
On speeding up the learning curve:
Early on, I had a hard time getting myself to switch paddle sides when turning, so.....
I would spend entire sessions on ONLY that.
Before a wave I would say "Switch paddle sides"!!!!!
That was my only focus, I didn't care about the rest of the ride....
my sole purpose was to ingrain the paddle switch into a routing action.
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Creek
I admire your commitment to improving your surfing. It is easily said but for many of us, myself included, it is difficult to pass on a good ride on a wave. This is what my surfing mentor told me to do if I wanted to learn to bottom turn. For an entire session make your bottom turn so hard that you kick out the back of the wave. One turn, one wave. Do you think I can do this? No ......I just hate to think that I have “wasted” a good wave. Now you have given me another goal of changing paddle side going left but also another prod to improve my bottom which is likely going to involve getting my back foot a little further back.
Cheers
Bob
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this is great advice
It's a funny thing.
On my 14'r, I get back to the stomper on every turn...
but on my 9'4 , I never do.
Necessity most likely in my case... the 14 won't turn unless I am at the tail,
but my 9'4 turns really well with my back foot on the rail, over the side bite.
I also suspect that on my 9'4, standing all the way back on the stomper stalls the board.
A person my height, but 50 lbs lighter may have the same stance as me, but on a smaller board, his back foot will be on the stomper and his front will be near the handle, so no stalling.
On speeding up the learning curve:
Early on, I had a hard time getting myself to switch paddle sides when turning, so.....
I would spend entire sessions on ONLY that.
Before a wave I would say "Switch paddle sides"!!!!!
That was my only focus, I didn't care about the rest of the ride....
my sole purpose was to ingrain the paddle switch into a routing action.
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It's challenging to ignore the ride and focus on getting better, since the ride is what makes us do this sport to begin with. Foiling has that problem squared. I'm trying to improve and tighten up my turns, but as soon as I get up in the air on a wave the voice in my head yells "I'm flying!!" and my plans go to shit.
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It's challenging to ignore the ride and focus on getting better, since the ride is what makes us do this sport to begin with. Foiling has that problem squared. I'm trying to improve and tighten up my turns, but as soon as I get up in the air on a wave the voice in my head yells "I'm flying!!" and my plans go to shit.
Really made me smile!
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It's challenging to ignore the ride and focus on getting better, since the ride is what makes us do this sport to begin with. Foiling has that problem squared. I'm trying to improve and tighten up my turns, but as soon as I get up in the air on a wave the voice in my head yells "I'm flying!!" and my plans go to shit.
this quote makes me want to start foiling
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Creek
I admire your commitment to improving your surfing. It is easily said but for many of us, myself included, it is difficult to pass on a good ride on a wave. This is what my surfing mentor told me to do if I wanted to learn to bottom turn. For an entire session make your bottom turn so hard that you kick out the back of the wave. One turn, one wave. Do you think I can do this? No ......I just hate to think that I have “wasted” a good wave. Now you have given me another goal of changing paddle side going left but also another prod to improve my bottom which is likely going to involve getting my back foot a little further back.
Cheers
Bob
I like your mentors thinking.... but there is a way that will let you have your ride and "kickout turn too!"
At the end of the wave, do the hardest possible turn you can, to kick-out.
This will let you learn just how far over the rail you can commit, without messing up your ride.
After you have a good feel for a full on rail turn, you can more easily incorporate it into your surfing.
here's 28 second slo-mo of a controlled turn.... out of the wave.
This was my 9'1 Creek when I first got it...
I wanted to see just how much I could lay it over, and stay in control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLX7ipEoG_I
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way to CRANK that turn! but you missed the chance for a nice off the lip 8)
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Thanks Rick
Amazing bottom turn! Your outside fin out of the water and defying gravity out over the rail. Great idea to practice this at the end of the ride. Hope to get out in the water tomorrow to try it out....I will report back, try to switch paddle sides and inch my back foot back. I think to get my back foot even a few inches further back it means a wider stance and not moving both feet. I have found that when I try to get my back foot back without widening my stance the board just starts bouncing around. It is the pressure on the front foot that is needed to stabilize the board. There are just so many things going on when surfing. It is no wonder that it becomes such an addiction and endless search.
Cheers
Bob
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On this thread was mentioned practicing switching sides with the paddle. This video from “Blue Zone” I found very helpful.
Bob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8-NU_Yu4I4
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This issue has perplexed me for a long time...Never quite dialed it in to a level of nuance that I feel totally comfortable with on my boards, and of course, each board is different.
What HAS helped me was going out far away from crowded breaks to a place like Trails here in SoCal, then using the session to experiment with forcing that rear foot closer to the tail--wrecking as many times as necessary; that has been invaluable in getting a feel for that particular board I'm riding. Under those conditions, I don't feel bad for "wasting" a wave or looking like a doofus, because there is no one physically close enough to care about anything.
Of course, those sessions are rare, and if you saw me surf, you'd wonder why I hadn't learned a lot more by now....
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I’m with Creek on this one. On my 14 Bullet in the surf, I can get my back foot all the way over the fin to initiate a turn, but on my other surfing sups my rear foot is almost never on the stomp pad. Yet I still catch good waves and can turn fine.
I think one thing has to do with there being rear-footed surfers, and front-footed surfers. Think short boarders(6’2”) slashing about on their fins, versus gunnier boards using their rails to carve. I still move my feet on the board, but since I’m usually surfing hollower, steeper waves I tend to go for speed rather than trying to smash a lip. Also my boards tend to wheelie and stall when my foot is way back.
Maybe on sloping waves with a smaller board you can push more off the back foot.
Sometimes I do, but not a lot. It’s a style thing as well, I prefer to watch a surfer with nice flow use less input, versus a herky-jerky thrash dance. Most of us aren’t pros, and throwing a sup around with style is hard. Most of the pros are on 7’6” x 25 wide boards. Even harder.
One last thing is to look at video of surfers barrel riding, their back foot is almost always forward of the pad. Works fine for them.
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Two things have helped me (and they were pointed out by a 1 day course with Chase at Blue Zone in CR - highly recommend):
1. I'm a kiter so I didn't realize this until he pointed it out but I put a lot of weight on my back foot. I've worked on adding more pressure on my front foot when generating speed and it helps a lot (I'm guessing foiling this spring/summer on a kite will help that too). How does this help get your foot back and crank turns? It keeps speed and forward momentum in weak sections.
2. You aren't trying to ride the whole time with your foot all the way back, you want to reach back to gain extra leverage on the turns. This makes it a lot easier, so as you go to initiate a turn, just get a bit lower and stretched out and reach back.
I'm finally getting it right occasionally on a wave (probably 20% of the time) or at least it feels right.
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the way I try to get better but not spoil the ride is I try to focus on one improvement with each go out. I will look at the conditions before I go out and tell my self that today is a good day to work on getting my back foot on the tail, or to work on my back side bottom turn,. or work on my front side re-entry, etc. I may just try the improvement at the end of each ride, but I do find this works for me.
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Almost 3 years now on my 10' Coreban Icon and I'm really comfortable stepping back as needed. I've been surfing better and better just sticking with this one board. My old 9' green machine turned on a dime. I could just think about turning front side or back and it would go. Like Creek said my back toe was dragging right at the side bite and that's as far as I would ever need to go back. I actually don't know how far back on the tail pad (if any) that I ever was. I could feel the ridge under my heel, and that was the spot. My 9' green machine is all but retired now. Mold growing down the stringer. Still surfs, but too heavy, with too many repairs. I think if you keep switching boards, you never get a chance to really see what you can get out of the board you have. I wouldn't make a good board salesman. "You should just stick it out with your old board before you go buying a new one." ::)
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Talldude: when i first read that I didnt understand it. Now after 6 months of near daily use of my JL SG
i do. And i am back on the stomp pad much more often and finding i can get agressive at throwing the board around with my feet
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Great news. By the way, the board has not changed. You are just getting much better. Pushing yourself and spending "Time in the surf" is paying off. Changing boards all the time doesn't usually improve anyone's surfing.
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As far as getting that rear foot back far enough, two things really helped me, and are currently helping my wife to get it.
1. Understanding the difference between stepping back with a weighted back foot, which will usually just stall the board. and balancing all of your weight on your front foot just behind the handle, and then stretching your back foot back as you lean forward. Once the rear foot is all the way back there, then you can shift your weight as needed.
2. Arch bars are awesome. Before having an arch bar, I would always reach back with my foot and wonder if I was a foot from the kick pad or just inches. With the arch bar, I can tell exactly where my rear foot is without looking. I think that an arch bar is far more valuable when surfing than a kickpad most of the time. It gives you a range to work with that is centered over the fin cluster, rather than just an endpoint. Works wonders.
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Changing boards all the time doesn't usually improve anyone's surfing.
I have to disagree. I change boards often and have experienced much improvement from it. In the past six months my 10'6 has improved my backside surfing and take offs. My 7'6 has improved my turns and the ability to generate speed, and my 8'10 has improved my ability on big days. I sometimes surf all three boards in a single session. Having just one board can be limiting.
I've bought eight boards in the past six years as I progressed narrowing it down to three which seem to cover every situation. Having a specific board for certain conditions allows me to surf more.
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badger---id love to see video of you surfing your 3 very different boards, same session---i am simply not skilled enough to surf my best under those circumstances
if i have a board dialed in, i am reticent to swap around, certainly not among boards whose dimensions vary significantly--if the waves are good i just dont want to sacrifice any quality of experience messing around with or trying out new gear--not when i have gear that's dialed--and with maneuvers that i want to learn there are already innumerable ways to screw up nice waves!
on my kinda boards, if your foot isnt often on the stomp, youre not really surfing the board--even when you need to accelerate---keep the foot back on the stomp, spread wide, and lean forward, but keep the back foot on the stomp--and the stomp is where powerful pumps happen, so if you're back there pumping, you likely have all the speed you need anyway
and stalls, turns?? all that happens better with back foot on the stomp
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badger---id love to see video of you surfing your 3 very different boards, same session---i am simply not skilled enough to surf my best under those circumstances
if i have a board dialed in, i am reticent to swap around, certainly not among boards whose dimensions vary significantly--if the waves are good i just dont want to sacrifice any quality of experience messing around with or trying out new gear--not when i have gear that's dialed--and with maneuvers that i want to learn there are already innumerable ways to screw up nice waves!
on my kinda boards, if your foot isnt often on the stomp, youre not really surfing the board--even when you need to accelerate---keep the foot back on the stomp, spread wide, and lean forward, but keep the back foot on the stomp--and the stomp is where powerful pumps happen, so if you're back there pumping, you likely have all the speed you need anyway
and stalls, turns?? all that happens better with back foot on the stomp
Getting back on the stomp is precisely what I've been working on lately. I'm not quite there yet. Those are good tips.
If a board is working for a session, I stay with it. I only change boards if the conditions change or if it's crowded and I'm falling too much. I watch dudes on shortrboards shredding our mushy waves and I know I can do it too. All my boards turn pretty well without having my foot all the way back but I really want to be able to throw some spray someday.
I've been asking everyone with a camera to get me on some video but it hasn't happened yet.
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I found after all this time the one thing I've struggled with the most is getting my foot back on the pad. I always felt comfortable about 4" up from the pad. Recently I decided to start to try to work back to the pad and man what a difference. Night and day. Before I had my foot right infront of where the pad started which was directly infront of my front fins. After getting a feel for when I could put my foot back to the pad and getting used to my foot feeling for the different pad texture things started to turn on. I found if I had mushy waves I couldn't get my foot back on the bottom turn. Only steep drops or else I would stall out. However when I worked up some speed down the line and wanted to hit the lip I could get it back there everytime. I tried moving my front foot back but that caused the nose to pop up and the board to stall. The way I had to do it was to just stretch my stance to get my back foot back an extra 6" (Keeping my front foot where it always is). As soon as I did it my turns went from slow to snappy. I managed to get out this weekend and took some stills and a quick video clip. You can see my foot could still go back another 3-4" to hit the back of the tail pad so there's more to gain. So much harder tuns and more spray! If you aren't getting your foot back on the pad you are missing out on the capabilities of turning your SUP for sure. Can't believe I've had to learn this lesson again. Seems like every new board I get.
https://youtu.be/-JnbFnaKZNk (https://youtu.be/-JnbFnaKZNk)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MB16WcFCX6Xdw5UnIjwJF_sHO_8pwfmSIyGZzEY1JO6K8vMtI1YhB6SFxBMEg5KEOlWb7yGzS1fn8FfUVr6EbLV-06UYR2GkzqV6S153AfDlUQhDo8fcyrMmOXN7bsVLYmByCVTOcbTcYitHd5gxEB_nxKjuKuP_bqoQ1cx0ZoJWL0paOQ_q1c7QrpHQPDL50hkMRvKjNLHiYN_RqF3lXx15GjOZ0OzBEUHAlBB3vL3uR-y1i7z9CSzJW2V_DcycfZErPsaYBPltIHZb4BljMnGgsJt_gfrgFXtK4OtY3N5Iymnk71nAdjxrZOCVlf836HfLzwr-px03yyGXIrsaEogDdbSOBlbfKkiSRIBSTF2eimmVggAOK6kOpXFr3qMbCz_Q5f5gcfn9SC44VKqjwcf1tDkcNoA3fKcaMMHwTKbIY6wBPMLHsGfD7FCMX8FCctWO6AthinqA--vHN6jXTFy2axRAe4fz2QwRdg58BhhplM8Hj0N34kE9y3-TJyc5dnSBgjuAPaPQCy3us7DOl-TKwlYpg_KeMbYhFIA3qhn37ZkCZey2Scz2EAajXoBzBpgw0fC_08tCMT_MtrfYf3kg3uFGbi0bJ0trDCzt-NiQrSB0mWo5ALXbYCWKuR57uLo8YSvAPjLugaI40Du-EVgcwPBkipD4yB_JC1V1njTblSBWe3gNwKbyycCC=w478-h357-no)
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ychhzMd1kNMUAFxCFoj0ycNKTIQ5VaBWyzkNCY8U4nwJMWbLnhKFqneru9M4k1b4tO1oEuYDQbHmX2pBHnJc43ZMF215MmIYpBS4R7i3mGJoF8jmd3QswOJQjvpOAOz1NtAwrEkL_v_UODcg3qbIQzWMvG78SKTjUA6FRIZALc5UE3-FfC806DtBFzE9lOp6PSIS5Lkh3ux1uhcsGplpV1JUgX_rBxd54-K00oOksr-7dSjO-kCzIF8Skb-AX-6t25A4mL6dpGefswViMpY9LmTOTlYdDWS3ORKmGDVRDcsyL-9lrTzXtp_7UgsjIt1SvKE05NHPk1-2Su9r-m2kdRH98CGyt0XJWqsbiKzhbcoleHTsEr0ZMqnoBHdaxQ0dmM0flQJxT0zsix-Xx3S_xPN44Ow33WptXOFXrRAZWwS0IayGNhk6FwG_mQK26YincXvyWG7ww8llEwy8s-jgAjAPsJlCOFY6n8mOmBUEVkJ5Rk-6ycXD2csDE2LMntvbXjhnIdchV9qCCiqgkNo6JmtxFYezsKErrTLlRQz57_G19MgVtqSwJRy0nPiIVfAlcSCGW6554l3NQu8pJcT835LlndKD1Y0DdrazMP1RsiVaSteQD4lSIe4LW1kjNxsurvaGZHZ3BOARNJ2FC2nvkNPxMOLfW9eWkXcNzuAHvZEDy7hBbiWbhEdD56cs=w2482-h1862-no)
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he way I had to do it was to just stretch my stance to get my back foot back an extra 6" (Keeping my front foot where it always is). As soon as I did it my turns went from slow to snappy.
https://vimeo.com/402721577
I've been watching this guy (Casso on Seabreeze) for his technique for getting back to the pad. I agree that getting your foot back without moving the front foot much. What I like about his videos are that he gets in close so you can see his footwork. Also, this board is the same as mine, so no excuses for me based on the board.
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Nice vid StarSUPman!
What length board are you riding?
I think length plays a part in getting far enough back.
When I ride my mid-9 fters, I find that I tend to stall if I am on the stomper, and have to move around too much to benefit from being way back.
Size matters IMO
For me, I find my 8'11 is where even a 71 year old man can start to get jiggy. ;)
Here is a 20 sec vid that shows my 8'11...
it's a triple loop, the slo-mo is easier to see that my front foot is behind the handle, so back foot is stomping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqcGIj5mOmw
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SupSean - That’s a nice video serious foot work. It’s just practice and timing keep reaching for the pad
Creek - thanks! You are really hitting the lip in your video! the board is 8’ x 27 so it’s on the shorter side. I agree board size makes a difference I have an 8’4 and It’s a little more difficult. However to counter this I also had a 7’4” board I struggled to get back on as well. I’ve found if I move my front foot back things go badly. Nose pops up and I stall. Keeping my front foot planted and stretching back feels weird at first but when you feel the difference it’s addicting. Also I only do it when I want that extra snap. Bottom turns and cutbacks.
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StarSUP...
"Keeping my front foot planted and stretching back feels weird at first but when you feel the difference it’s addicting"
I love the way that looks!!!
But, it is my biggest issue...
The knee on my "power leg" is very suspect, so I always wear a brace.
Any movement or pressure caused by a wider stance or dropping the knee toward the board like in a "pig dog".... and my knee would collapse. Zero strength or durability that way.
So... I can't "reach back" for the stomper and do a slashing turn... it's all gotta be done without side to side movement of my knee joint.
So I improvise weak, upright top turns, instead of slashes ;D ;D
Love Sean Poynters back leg extension!!!
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StarSUP...
"Keeping my front foot planted and stretching back feels weird at first but when you feel the difference it’s addicting"
I love the way that looks!!!
But, it is my biggest issue...
The knee on my "power leg" is very suspect, so I always wear a brace.
Any movement or pressure caused by a wider stance or dropping the knee toward the board like in a "pig dog".... and my knee would collapse. Zero strength or durability that way.
So... I can't "reach back" for the stomper and do a slashing turn... it's all gotta be done without side to side movement of my knee joint.
So I improvise weak, upright top turns, instead of slashes ;D ;D
Love Sean Poynters back leg extension!!!
Thanks for posting Sean (Poynter) vs. Rick. He has just a slight age advantage over you! BTW, I am in awe that you do what you do with a janky knee! What you lack in flexibility you make up in smooth style!
StarSUP Its funny because I have read alot about the back foot and on these crappy NYC waves, its always been a struggle. But just recently thanks to the Casso vid above, and your post, it was a huge game changer to not move the front foot. Now I just need the pesky corona to leave town so I can get back to work...
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I agree with SupSean. Rick you have a great smooth confident style on waves. Makes it fun to watch!
I had the good fortune to do a SUP clinic with Sean Poynter 3
Years ago. He showed me a bunch of things to up my game, but his SUP surfing is on a whole new level. Talk about a power surfer. I tried to ride his board and couldn’t even get on my knees. Something like 7’2 x 24” around 76 liters. But it was fun trying
I’ve found each session I have to keep reminding myself to get back on the pad. Super helpful to have that different texture so you know you’ve made it. Still can’t make it all the way back to the raised part at the end. I also moved my center fin forward on my thruster setup I wonder once I get this pad technique down if I can move it back to its original position.
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Most times I've surfed with Jimmy Lewis he yells ar me to get back on the pad--which is odd considering that Jimmy spends most of his wave time on the nose. I tend to turn too much from the middle of the board, which slows the turns and doesn't use the fins well. Oddly enough, I get back on the pad when I'm going left. Even odder, I've discovered that foiling changed my foot position for surfing. I'm much further back all the time now, except when I run forward to catch a mushburger. But as soon as I start turning my back foot is right on the stomp pad. I have no theory for why, it's just something I noticed.