Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Training, Diet, and Fitness => Topic started by: TallDude on December 20, 2018, 08:29:53 PM

Title: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 20, 2018, 08:29:53 PM
Poking around through some diet research and came across this... It's eye opening for me. Too many sweet snacks. Something has to change:(

https://news.yale.edu/2018/12/17/sugar-targets-gut-microbe-linked-lean-and-healthy-people?utm_source=YNemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=yn-12-20-18



Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 21, 2018, 02:25:41 AM
I know, but it tastes so good!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 21, 2018, 07:41:20 AM
Interesting. My extensive research with a sample size of one doesn't completely concur with that. I was overweight (BMI was just over 33) and out of shape until late summer of 2017, when I decided to get serious about it before I turn 60 if I wanted to improve the likelihood I will have a long and healthy retirement. I lost over 65 pounds and have a BMI under 25. Next week I will turn 60 with visible abs. Paddling SUP like a mad man during 2018 had a lot to do with this, but most of the weight comes off by consuming less than you burn, which I did. But to make it sustainable, I limited portions rather than making things off limits. I have a sweet tooth and eat a lot of sugar. Like way over the suggested limit. I had a carb heavy diet with a lot of sugar even while I was dropping weight and still do as I am now maintaining it. It is definitely possible to get lean and fit while consuming a lot of sugar, at least IME.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: stoneaxe on December 21, 2018, 09:51:16 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking....:)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 21, 2018, 10:19:24 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking....:)
"The boat is taking on water!" ...... I'll fix the bilge pump.........right after I finish these cookies. ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:21:43 AM
5 months ago, almost to the day, my wife and I changed our diets and eliminated sugar and carbs. Weíre now fat adapted, meaning our body isnít being fueled by glucose anymore and now is running on fat. Without making a single change to our exercise or activity levels, I went from 197 to 157 and she went from 130 to 110. Weíve discovered lots of natural sweeteners that donít spike insulin levels and have had a great time baking and substituting these for regular sugar. Iíve never felt better. Just another sample size of 1 (well, technically 2) here but Iím definitely against sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: rbgar on December 21, 2018, 10:37:00 AM
wow Dog, that's awesome!!!!!!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Subber on December 21, 2018, 10:39:21 AM
Excellent you guys!

Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Several years ago now, I went on keto (very low carb among other things) and dropped about 2.5 pounds per week
over about three months down to 173 from 195 so 22 pounds (I still was not as skinny as you two are now).
I was paddling about the same amount.  I also did a bit of fasting - nothing much, just skipping a meal every once
in a while if I wasn't on track.

I will say I was a bit disappointed that my endurance and recovery didn't seem to be better at the lower weight -
but that maybe related to my own health issues.

I held the low weight for about six months.

I've said my higher weight was "all social" - I still think so.  As, I kind of abandoned the super low carb diet
due to social pressures - who I'm around and what they like to eat, etc. and gained it all back and a bit more.

So, anyway, for me, cutting the sugar definitely reduced the weight.

I'd like to do it again sustainably - maybe at the bottom weight, portion control is how to handle "social situations"
(bad influencers).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 21, 2018, 10:39:54 AM
Awesome John! I'm going to have to do something solo though. My wife eats the opposite of what I should be eating and I'm not going ask her to change. I need to make a big time effort to get back too the 225 range. It would open a whole range of lower volume boards to me;) Plus I'm sure I'll feel better.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:45:41 AM
Excellent you guys!

Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Several years ago now, I went on keto (very low carb among other things) and dropped about 2.5 pounds per week
over about three months down to 173 from 195 so 22 pounds (I still was not as skinny as you two are now).
I was paddling about the same amount.  I also did a bit of fasting - nothing much, just skipping a meal every once
in a while if I wasn't on track.

I will say I was a bit disappointed that my endurance and recovery didn't seem to be better at the lower weight -
but that maybe related to my own health issues.

I held the low weight for about six months.

I've said my higher weight was "all social" - I still think so.  As, I kind of abandoned the super low carb diet
due to social pressures - who I'm around and what they like to eat, etc. and gained it all back and a bit more.

So, anyway, for me, cutting the sugar definitely reduced the weight.

I'd like to do it again sustainably - maybe at the bottom weight, portion control is how to handle "social situations"
(bad influencers).

Subber, we're doing keto. I'm hungrier now than I was when we first started but that's obviously because I have much less fat now. I'm eating at a maintenance level right now, so not trying to lose any more. I do 16:8 intermittent fasting pretty much every day. My endurance, performance and recovery definitely suffered for the first couple of months, which is expected, but now I feel excellent. Not sure if it's coincidental and definitely not trying to preach keto but I also suffer from asthma and have not needed to use any of my inhalers in 3 months. I was using them pretty much daily before this. My surf sessions have doubled and tripled in duration too.

Social pressure has been a learning curve, especially with our families and relatives. They don't get it and that's ok. We made it through Thanksgiving fairly easily and think Christmas/New Years won't be a problem. We just do a lot of the cooking/baking for get-togethers, that way we have control over it. The great thing is that most keto foods and desserts taste amazing to everyone thanks to all of the butter  ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:48:04 AM
It would open a whole range of lower volume boards to me;) Plus I'm sure I'll feel better.

Matt.... THIS! My go-to board right now is 7'11x27 85L and that's with wearing full rubber. Pretty insane to think I can even stand on it, let alone have a 3 hour session on it. I know I can go smaller too but just don't see the need although I'm going to see what Dave has kicking around the shop when I'm out in Dana Point in January.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on December 21, 2018, 11:23:13 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking.... :)
I'll take them!


Years ago, I worked at a big (compared to working for myself) company.  Starting about mid-December, we always got all kinds of cookies, cheesecakes, etc. from companies that worked with us.  Everyone went crazy the first few days, then got sugared out, except me, which was great because I had it all to myself the last few days.


Then (also years ago) I left in January to work for myself.  Almost a year later, I got a delivery to my house on December 24th from my old company.  It was box after box of Christmas cookies and chocolate.  The note said they didn't know why they had so many goodies piling up, then realized it was because I wasn't there, so they had it all delivered to me.  It was great.


But I'm a lot older now, so definitely those days are over.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: goodfornothin on December 21, 2018, 12:32:02 PM
HA, i was king of sugar, i lived in mammoth and worked out of LA County. 4 hr drive to work. I hated coffee.  So at 3am, id fill up with gas in Bishop, get a 64oz of dr pepper and as many laughy taffies and 3 muskateers that i could stomache. Id get myself just to puking stage.  It worked perfectly, i never fell asleep once driving to work,

And then there were the overtimers bringing in the gallon of ice cream, so id eat at least a half gallon of ice cream a shift, and then if there were heavy calls or holidays the station would be full of cookies and brownies,,and it usually took me a dozen before i could tell if i liked them

Then i got lung cancer, thyroid cancer, melanoma, pancreatic and kidney cancer,,,,and now if i have 1mg of sugar or any bread i get instant gout throughout my body.

There are repurcussions to processed sugars, especially if you are carrying a load of heavy metals, parasites, and fungus. 

If you are not producing enough glutathione, then its all compounded.

The shit aint good for you, no matter how skinny you are..

But god dam i could use a doughnut right now, haha
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 21, 2018, 12:34:27 PM
Excellent you guys!
Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Thanks.
You don't have to feel hungry. I sometimes did and do if i go too far overboard on sweets as they aren't all that filling. I log everything and make sure the number of calories I consume is less than the amount I burn. I use a food scale a lot to make sure I am logging what I actually eat and not just what the package says a serving is. That's what all diets boil down to - a calorie deficit; it's just personal preference as to whether you get most of your calories in carbs or not as long as you are getting reasonable amounts of carbs, protein and fat. It's also a matter of what you can keep doing in maintenance.

I have been in maintenance for almost 10 months. I eat pretty much the same food as I always have, but I will make trade offs sometimes. I still log everything because I suck at eating the right amount naturally. A couple of years back I stopped eating mammal meat, so I get most of my protein from chicken, seafood and vegetarian sources.  So my protein sources are low fat. Mostly I had to make sure I wasn't going overboard on portions. The food scale is a real eye opener; finding out what is an actual serving of cereal, ice cream, nuts, etc is a little depressing.

I am kind of bad about using exercise as an eraser. During the summer, I would often go into work very early in the AM so I could knock off early and go paddle 10 miles. Since it has been cooler, I got one of the $10 a month Planet Fitness memberships at a location near my office. I go there early AM, do an hour of cardio and a few minutes of weights and the endless rope (great exercise for paddling muscles), shower and head into the office. I say "kind of bad" because I am often driven by the desire to get a bigger calorie allowance instead of just the desire to get fit, but the end result is getting pretty fit and I really like feeling this way. I plan to do a lot of paddling in 2019.

I could go pretty low volume on a board but my most recent one is a big battleship - a 2016 14x30 Glide -  because I want the ability to haul a lot of gear and sometimes an extra person, plus the stability for open ocean touring. I plan to do a lot of fishing nearshore up to maybe 3 miles out and i will have all the gear to haul out there and need the capacity to haul giant tuna back in. It doesn't hurt that they are trying very hard to get rid of them and slashed the price 50% plus free shipping.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Cruisinby on December 21, 2018, 06:42:12 PM
Last yr I was forced into elimenating most all sugar from my diet.    After 3 months many of the aches and joint pain were gone or leaving.   After 6 months I could tell a hugh difference in how I felt.   I mentioned this to my doc during a physical, his reply was if all his patients over 55 ( I"m 66 ) would go sugar free most of their joints issues would go away.    THis yr my doc also found my uric acid levels were way to high.   With his help I have lowered it to below normal which also helps with joint pain.    Best I have felt in yrs.   Truth be known I really miss the CC cookies, ice cream etc.    I will go with less pain !  =  more water time !
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on December 22, 2018, 04:13:35 AM
my general practitioner told me she thinks refined sugar is the current tobacco--pure poison, well marketed--soon to be id'ed for what it truly is--i didnt ask for an explanation but she's the best dr ive ever had--pricey---but she takes her time and aint no slouch--my duaghter stalked her and she grad'ed numero uno from her med school class at penn, currently top-rated med school in the country

but yeah refined sugar of any type shd be avoided

kaya--i could show you a simlar before and after on me---208 down to 188---i made zero effort, but for a change to a diet that varies BTWN vegetarian, pescatarian and vegan---no dairy means no several pints of haagen dazs per week, a good start!

last night at a party, there was an amazing dessert layout--i approached it, hesitated and walked away--i dont always
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 23, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
The science on types of sugar is pretty clear that refined/added sugar is treated no differently than naturally occurring sugar. The big problem is that you get more sugar than you realize when a lot is added, which means your calorie total for what seems like a reasonable day can be a lot higher. There are some differences for diabetics, but that even applies to some "natural" sources as well. I quoted "natural" because none of the stuff is lab made; the sources are sugar cane, corn and beets mostly.

The main reason I am considering watching it closer and cutting back is that I can end up hitting my calorie goal and still be hungry. Calorie dense fatty foods tend to be more satiating than calorie dense carbs, which is a big reason for the popularity of keto. If you eat less calories than you burn and you have plenty of fat, that's primarily what gets burned no matter what your diet is.

Here is info on how sugar is refined:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCLEYmugfDw

Yes, there are several steps where simple compound chemicals are added, most have natural sources. It's not a crazy scary process using harsh chemicals. Calcium carbonate is a naturally occurring compound used as an antacid and a supplement you can find in health food stores. Phosphoric acid is a weak non toxic acid widely used in foods for a slightly sour flavoring - soft drinks, jams/jellies, beer (it is even in a lot of craft and home brewed beers), etc. Unless you are very hardcore about avoiding anything processed, you probably consume a fair amount of both of these chemicals, but oddly enough, very little of it is left in refined sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: iopsailor on December 23, 2018, 07:24:27 AM
My wife and I have got in the habit of eating one square of dark chocolate after lunch.  For some reason, it leaves us totally satisfied, unlike Oreos or candy bars which zoom through the body and leave you wanting more.  Anybody gotta clue?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2018, 11:40:30 AM
My wife and I have got in the habit of eating one square of dark chocolate after lunch.  For some reason, it leaves us totally satisfied, unlike Oreos or candy bars which zoom through the body and leave you wanting more.  Anybody gotta clue?

Here's the answer--it's a lot like why ketchup is such a popular condiment--because it satisfies multiple taste and smell components. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an interesting article about that years ago. Chocolate, especially darker varieties, satisfy a large number of appetites.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/comfort-cravings/201402/why-do-we-crave-chocolate-so-much
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: natas585 on December 25, 2018, 01:48:32 PM
Any type of diet will work for losing weight as long as the calories consumed are less than the calories used over time. Now a good diet is one you can adhere to for basically as long as possible or needed. I can lose weight on a cookie diet, sorry it's true. And so can you if you eat less than your body uses. Now it won't be healthy because you're obviously not getting all the nutrients you need to operate and repair tissues. If you want to avoid sugar, go ahead, but it is not inherently bad for you to consume. If you eat like an asshole and your diet consists of a bunch of empty calories  consisting  of high amounts of carbs/sugars you probably won't have the best metabolic health. But the reason isn't the sugar itself. The brain operates mainly on carbohydrates which are sugars. And paddling as an activity uses mainly carbs for fuel. Your body can become adapted to using mainly fat but not only is it difficult it's also not ideal for almost any athlete. Meaning, sure it can work, but the amount of benefit has very little to no increased performance or health benefit to just eating a well balanced diet structured to your activity level. If something works for you great. But when we are talking about a majority or the average athletic population the science is out there and easily located. Now some of us have certain genes that will predispose us to being able to not get fat as easily as others, process caffeine fast or slow, and have more of a certain muscle fiber. All of us can benefit from getting stronger and eating what our bodies need everyday rather than mostly what we want or like. Get the proper protein, fats, and carbs, and micronutrients each day and if you have extra calories available eat whatever you want.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 25, 2018, 02:28:58 PM
I am glad to see someone come along beating the same drum, more or less. I lost ~65 pounds without following any specific diet instructions, just tracking everything and becoming aware of what I can and can't have within a short amount of time or I will run too short of calories to eat properly or will be too hungry. It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. I choose to eat a lot of carbs, and much of that is sugar. As I said in another post, the only reason I am thinking about adjusting that down a bit is because I often find myself wanting another snack and not having enough left. I can borrow a little from tomorrow, but that's a slippery slope.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 26, 2018, 03:46:04 AM
It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. .

I am right to the number.  Any calories to junk and I am dragging.  Any over my number is a gain day.  It also depends on your goals.  If you are pleased with 10% body fat then you have a lot of wiggle room (and a lot of wiggle).  If you want to get to 6% or lower and have energy all day then it is a (unicorn) rare person that has any calories to spare.

This is still the best article on sugar that I have seen: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&

Here is an old thread on the topic that had some interesting stuff:

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25180.0.html
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 26, 2018, 04:46:38 AM
It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. .

I am right to the number.  Any calories to junk and I am dragging.  Any over my number is a gain day.  It also depends on your goals.  If you are pleased with 10% body fat then you have a lot of wiggle room (and a lot of wiggle).  If you want to get to 6% or lower and have energy all day then it is a (unicorn) rare person that has any calories to spare.

This is still the best article on sugar that I have seen: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&

Here is an old thread on the topic that had some interesting stuff:

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25180.0.html

That article is more compelling than most arguments I hear.  He does a good job explaining the science instead of just referencing something that is hard to understand and doesn't tell the whole story.

On the point of fat, I Googled up a few charts and this one seems fairly common at fitness sites that usually have good info:

(https://i1.wp.com/www.vitfit.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Male-body-fat-.png)

10% BF is only .1% above the bottom of the range for an athlete for my age. I am not "pleased with 10%" - I am ecstatic about 15%. I have visible abs. This chart:

(https://eatsmartproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/08/body_fat-percentages-chart-eatsmart.png)

Says optimal for my age is 19-25% and below 18 is low.  I call BS on that.

Another one for good measure. It says below 12% is underfat for me. I am not cherry picking, BTW. I can't find any chart that says it is healthy for me to get down into the single digits.

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 26, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
I like the image below.  :)  It will depend on your goals and where you find that your body feels the most capable and healthy.  For me there is no comparison.  Minimal excess has all the advantages.  If you are enjoying increased fitness at 15% you might want to see how lower feels.  It is a cool experiment at the very least. 

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25180.0;attach=51993;image)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 26, 2018, 03:44:12 PM
To me, that concurs with what the charts I found say. The lowest one that looks healthy to me is the 10-12 and the highest one is the 20. The 3-4% guy looks like a villain from a Marvel movie. I might be a little under 15 or maybe just have fat that's distributed differently. I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 26, 2018, 04:20:35 PM
I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.
So 15% would be considered ab normal?
That's my goal....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 26, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
I like the image below.  :)  It will depend on your goals and where you find that your body feels the most capable and healthy.  For me there is no comparison.  Minimal excess has all the advantages.  If you are enjoying increased fitness at 15% you might want to see how lower feels.  It is a cool experiment at the very least. 

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25180.0;attach=51993;image)

Thought that pic to be valid -> but found it really depends on age.  So can be very deceiving.  At 60 or so the cutoff for very very lean is quite high comparatively.  Take a DEXA scan to see your true BF%.  This was my third one.  They rate based on Z-Score which is a very good representation on where you stand vs your peers.  But take one to also track your muscle mass gains and losses -> as well as BMD.  Those 2 were much more important to me.  Most important tho were comparative blood tests as diet was massaged.  That is where the most important gains were made by far.  Yeah abs are one thing.  Overrated really.  But insides are key.  Much rather have no abs -> but perfect blood numbers.  As always YMMV.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2018, 03:24:02 AM
To me, that concurs with what the charts I found say. The lowest one that looks healthy to me is the 10-12 and the highest one is the 20. The 3-4% guy looks like a villain from a Marvel movie. I might be a little under 15 or maybe just have fat that's distributed differently. I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.

Hi Ride,

I am not sure why they switched to gym guy for 6-7 percent :).  It would have been better if they had kept it more similar.  Bulk is certainly  not required for lower body fat.  Rock climbers are great examples of ultra lean / max strength.  That to me is the goal.  I actually think most people can get there just by shedding all of the junk, but for most  of us it really has to be that. The all is the critical factor and is the start of the most easily sustainable eating habit.  Once its gone for a while there are no cravings. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on December 27, 2018, 03:33:20 AM
admin, i have no issue eating extremely well when i cook for myself--as usual, it's other people who are the problem!

any social eating of food prepared by others, or restaurant food (at least in my world) is laden with sugar salt and unhealthy fats

cravings? bah....no problem with that---problem is about staying on track while trying to be a social human
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 27, 2018, 04:36:35 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 27, 2018, 05:22:32 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 27, 2018, 05:30:27 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.

That is a good point.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 27, 2018, 10:36:12 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.

That is a good point.

It amazes me how many people don't get it. They brag about not gaining over Christmas, but don't do the math when they return to normal habits.

320 cals - Pumpkin pie
20   cals - light Cool Whip

140 cals - Coke
215 cals - Snickers

400 cals - Turkey, dressing, mashed potatoes and gravy

870 cals - quarter pounder with cheese extra value meal

etc, etc, etc...
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on December 28, 2018, 06:17:33 PM
O.K., Iím convinced. Actually, I have been thinking about sugar for some time now, but this thread has helped kick me in the butt to finally do something.

I have a major sweet tooth. I consume a lot of sugar in the cookies, chocolate bars and sweets I eat. Funny thing is, Iím not overweight, and every time I go for a check up my blood sugar numbers always come back within normal limits. But in the back of my mind I have been concerned.

So Iím going to take a stab at reducing the amount of sugar I eat. Not sure how Iíll make out, but Iím going to give it a try. So thanks to all those who have posted here. And a special thanks to Admin., for his posting and the links he included to the New York Times Article and the previous thread on the Zone. I got a lot out of both.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 29, 2018, 01:02:33 AM
QB sugar is a major evil.  While I still consume Christmas cookies and dark chocolate -> take no sugar in my daily coffee.  No added sugar in everyday eating.  But do partake in sipping rum straight which is all sugar with friends.  Like I did tonight.  3 rums for taste testing.  Haha.

My perspective is moderation with no deprivation.  Has worked wonders for close to 5 years now.  Took off about 25 lbs of blubber and put on about 15 lbs of muscle.  Is possible even as you age -> but takes a lot of dedication.  In all well worth the expense in time and effort.  No question.  That and the 23Ē AS have been key for me.  Hardly use my wider boards anymore.  23 for balance.  Weights for muscle mass.  Good diet overall for good blood numbers.  Yeah abs also -> but who really cares.

https://youtu.be/K3ksKkCOgTw
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 29, 2018, 03:25:52 AM
Changing your sugar diet can be pretty tricky at first.  It is amazing how we build up to these little tent posts in our days.  Small things that we allow ourselves that become strong habits which we then defend even more strongly to ourselves.  Not doing something that has been a mini reward , a micro highlight, is very hard.  But, once it has been broken, its gone.  That may take 3-6 months to really take hold.  After being without it for that period, you stop craving it entirely and even being around it won't really draw you in.  It will actually be shocking how sweet sweets taste when you try them again.  I had pecan pie at thanksgiving (my favorite, actually rhubarb too, actually all pie) and it blew me away how over the top it was.  Don't get me wrong, it was fantastic, but holy shit!  I also was getting sugar hangovers (at least that is what they felt like).  That made it easier for me to quit as well. 

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 29, 2018, 06:42:32 AM
I second how soon you can kick cravings and how sensitive your taste buds can become. After cutting out sugar, including fruit, I introduced berries back into my diet. The first time having berries after 5 months and it felt like I was eating candy.

There are lots of natural sweeteners out there that donít spike insulin and Iím not talking about honey or pure maple syrup. Try erythritol or monk fruit. Youíll be amazed at how good it can taste. Just be careful, substituting natural sweeteners for sugar wonít eliminate your cravings.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 29, 2018, 09:19:05 AM
Changing your sugar diet can be pretty tricky at first.....

Yeah does take a bit to get sorted.  But once you take out added sugar -> that alone is a big chunk.  Then cutting back on refined carbs will get you well on your way.  Did that until most excess fat was gone.  Then focused on optimizing blood numbers. 

Def bloodwork took a lot more effort and time to sort as ďin rangeĒ -> does not necessarily mean ďoptimalĒ by any stretch.  From there it has been straightforward maintenance.  So adding back in some sugar has been without much consequence.  Since when cleaned up -> your body processes toxic junk pretty easy.  Instead of turning it into inflammatory fire which is the typical situation.

But sugar for the most part is not good to ingest at all.  Just like alcohol or smoke.  In fact most man-made packaged products are not that great.  Sugar in particular is pretty toxic -> especially at the molecular level.  So best to cut back for sure.  Tons of clinical trial data on this.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 03, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
Update.... -5 lbs today :)  I haven't been 240 since I had the flu 2 years ago. No more need for afternoon naps. Eating pretty much the same things, just avoiding the obvious sugar items. Feeling pretty good too. Lots of fruits and nuts and water. My drink has become water with a splash of OJ. Last night I had a major craving for chocolate. Took out one of my favorite snacks, dark chocolate covered almonds. I placed one on my desk as I worked. It stayed there in view and untouched the whole night. Like a cigarette laying there in plain view, tempting a smoker trying to give up smoking. It was tough. I survived the moment and have been trying to find additional snack substitutes. Dried apricots and sugar free peanut butter seems to be working. Any suggestions? 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: goodfornothin on January 04, 2019, 10:11:35 AM
(All organic)Banannas or green apples sliced, peanut butter, salt, sorguhms syrup, sprinkle coconut shavings on top
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 04, 2019, 10:33:07 AM
(All organic)Banannas or green apples sliced, peanut butter, salt, sorguhms syrup, sprinkle coconut shavings on top
Sorghum's sweetness is primarily from sucrose and fructose. It also has some other simple sugars. It has more calories per unit of measure than white sugar. It is raw with a small amount of natural sediment (aka dirt/dust) in it. It is less processed than white sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on January 04, 2019, 06:17:13 PM
Update.... -5 lbs today :)  I haven't been 240 since I had the flu 2 years ago. No more need for afternoon naps. Eating pretty much the same things, just avoiding the obvious sugar items. Feeling pretty good too. Lots of fruits and nuts and water. My drink has become water with a splash of OJ. Last night I had a major craving for chocolate. Took out one of my favorite snacks, dark chocolate covered almonds. I placed one on my desk as I worked. It stayed there in view and untouched the whole night. Like a cigarette laying there in plain view, tempting a smoker trying to give up smoking. It was tough. I survived the moment and have been trying to find additional snack substitutes. Dried apricots and sugar free peanut butter seems to be working. Any suggestions?


TallDude, congrats on the 5 pounds. Also have to say that youíre a stronger man than me. No way I could have chocolate sitting beside me all night and not eat it. With me, if itís in sight, itís going to get eaten. All my chocolate bars and cookies went into the freezer, and so far I havenít been tempted. Although, to give myself a bit of credit, I was out a few days ago where brownies were available (one of my favourites) and I resisted.

As for snacks, what I sometimes do is take walnuts and almonds, roast them in the oven, and eat them this way. I was surprised how much better they taste roasted.

And just a quick word about fruits. I havenít given up all fruits, but they do contain sugar. I know itís not refined sugar, but from what Iím told sugar is sugar, and none of it is great. I love bananas but have stopped eating them as they are particularly high in sugar content. And if I remember correctly, the sugar content of fruit juices, even pure fruit juices, is higher than the fruit itself. Just something to be aware of.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 04, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Congrats Matt, keep it up. If you want a chocolate alternative for cravings, check out Lilyís brand. They make bars, baking chips, etc and are sweetened with stevia. My favorite nuts are macadamia and sometimes Iíll sprinkle some baking cocoa and some erythritol on them. I like them roasted and salted and this hits the spot. A big eye opener was weighing everything I eat. Itís amazing how I used to grab a couple handlful of nuts, which is probably 1.5-2 servings per handful.

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 04, 2019, 08:27:06 PM
Congrats Matt, keep it up. If you want a chocolate alternative for cravings, check out Lilyís brand. They make bars, baking chips, etc and are sweetened with stevia. My favorite nuts are macadamia and sometimes Iíll sprinkle some baking cocoa and some erythritol on them. I like them roasted and salted and this hits the spot. A big eye opener was weighing everything I eat. Itís amazing how I used to grab a couple handlful of nuts, which is probably 1.5-2 servings per handful.
A food scale is key IMO. Learning what portions really look like was one of the biggest contributors to success in hitting my goal (BMI under 25, down from over 33). I have continued weighing and logging during maintenance - over 10 months now. Eating "naturally" just doesn't work for me. I do that "too small to count" grazing and it adds up if I grab a few raisins and nuts just about every time I pass through the kitchen. Or I screw up estimating portions or not checking the caloric content of foods I think aren't that bad.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 04, 2019, 09:55:07 PM
Thanks for the dark chocolate w/ stevia Kayadogg. Just bought some on Amazon. I've been having half an apple and a couple of spoonfuls of peanut butter with no added sugar for an evening dessert. I'm just scratching the surface. I've been reading more about it and learning a little. Even OJ is high in sugar, so I'm drinking more decaf coffee with nothing added and lots of water. As far as weighing what I eat..... I'll have to work my way towards that.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 05, 2019, 09:01:17 AM
My wife and I have made a habit of logging all of our meals and exercise with the MyFitnessPal app. It was a pain in the ass at first,  but we stuck with it and have been able to maintain our weight goal for over 2 years. It has been a "lifestyle change" but well worth it as we have been healthy and feel good. (much cheaper and more fun than being sick). The app enables looking at "reports" showing how much sugar, fiber, carbs, protein etc. etc. you are eating making it easy to see just what foods are doing to your diet.
By the way,  I have given up alcohol for over 3 weeks now and I do feel like I have more energy and I am sleeping better. I do still put a touch of lime vodka on top of my bloody mary's and my grapefruit juice....but I am cutting back on the number of those tasty drinks as well.  Unsweetened almond milk is my new go to drink.
Happy New Year everyone!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 05, 2019, 09:50:31 AM
My wife and I have made a habit of logging all of our meals and exercise with the MyFitnessPal app. It was a pain in the ass at first,  but we stuck with it and have been able to maintain our weight goal for over 2 years. It has been a "lifestyle change" but well worth it as we have been healthy and feel good. (much cheaper and more fun than being sick). The app enables looking at "reports" showing how much sugar, fiber, carbs, protein etc. etc. you are eating making it easy to see just what foods are doing to your diet.
By the way,  I have given up alcohol for over 3 weeks now and I do feel like I have more energy and I am sleeping better. I do still put a touch of lime vodka on top of my bloody mary's and my grapefruit juice....but I am cutting back on the number of those tasty drinks as well.  Unsweetened almond milk is my new go to drink.
Happy New Year everyone!

I also log with mfp 10 months into maintenance; keeps me honest. I have been alcohol free for over 18 months, though there was more fueling my decision than just weight loss. The weight loss started shortly after as did getting into shape; it was a factor in giving a damn about those things. I didn't want to turn 60 drinking when I had some issues with it or overweight or out of shape. I turned 60 in late December with none of those factors in play. There are no guarantees, but it greatly increases my chances of having significantly more healthy years left than if I had not addressed the major risk factors.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 05, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
60 last novótempted to ditch booze tooóworry that, if retired, might drink more oftenónever drank much on ďschool nightsĒó-prolly leave the green turned on, turn off the boozeórefined sugar? When I indulge, seems I get ďhangoversĒ tooóand much moreso, seems, if I let my guard down and eat like shit, i feel like shit

As with booze hangoversówhen young, Iíd shrug off a serious night out by 10am the next morningówhere, over the last many years, the few times Iíve tied a serious one on, itís been a 2 day recovery process.

Refined sugar is poisonólove a banana/nut butter snackósatisfying and all good
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 05, 2019, 01:29:00 PM
Alcohol is a risk factor in any amount according to the most recent study. It was actually a study of other studies. There are benefits to small quantities for various reasons, but also some negatives even for small amounts. They ran all the numbers and math indicates that the risks outweigh the benefits. Not by much if it's small amounts. But if you drink to excess somewhat often, which is what I was doing, it's a substantial health risk. There is also a significant chance of frequency increasing in retirement. I didn't want to become the great uncle that reeks of alcohol every time you see him and doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have it completely under control, that's not as much of a concern.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 06, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
The mindset that we adopt is kind of crazy when you break it down.  There are 30 million delicious things we can eat.  We can fill our entire calorie budget with different fantastic things that are awesome for diet, health, energy, etc.  But, somehow we focus on the few things that suck for us and no matter that we are eating amazing stuff all day, it is those crap things that we can't live without.  Change that mindset, make the delicious good stuff the habit, and the other stuff loses its pull.  If you eating a tenderloin, do you need to be thinking, "it sucks that I can't have my pork rinds right now". 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 06, 2019, 07:34:39 AM
The mindset that we adopt is kind of crazy when you break it down.  There are 30 million delicious things we can eat.  We can fill our entire calorie budget with different fantastic things that are awesome for diet, health, energy, etc.  But, somehow we focus on the few things that suck for us and no matter that we are eating amazing stuff all day, it is those crap things that we can't live without.  Change that mindset, make the delicious good stuff the habit, and the other stuff loses its pull.  If you eating a tenderloin, do you need to be thinking, "it sucks that I can't have my pork rinds right now".
Then we have our personal quirks. I don't eat mammal meat (a mix of compassion and protest against "elite farming" that can't scale due to excessive use of resources), so your example is two things I don't eat. Poultry and seafood (my compassion only goes so far and the resource use to produce is much lower) are generally lower in calories so I am left with more "discretionary calories" and that's where my sweet/fat tooth kicks in. Or sometimes I choose fish and chips as a meal and blow over half my daily allotment on one meal.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 06, 2019, 08:50:33 AM
Of course I did just bake these from the yeast up with my grandson.  If you want to test your resolve, the smell of baking Cinnamon rolls will do it :).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on January 06, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
Of course I did just bake these from the yeast up with my grandson.  If you want to test your resolve, the smell of baking Cinnamon rolls will do it :).


Now this is just wrong. There should be some kind of law against posting pictures like these in a thread on the evils of sugar  ; ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 07, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
obvi you melt sweet butter all over them sticky buns prior to ingestion!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 07, 2019, 02:29:20 PM
Took my teen age kids to the donut shop this weekend and was able to restrain myself. Then my wife baked chocolate chip cookies. Again, I looked the other way:( It's tough....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 07, 2019, 04:54:55 PM
One of my kids works at Dunkin'. Usually he works an early shift but every now and then he closes and sometimes brings home some stuff that would have been tossed. He's pretty good at picking ones that keep best and boxing them quickly. I would like to say they aren't nearly as good the next morning, but the truth is they are still pretty darn good.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 07, 2019, 08:10:42 PM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 08, 2019, 02:40:15 AM
obvi you melt sweet butter all over them sticky buns prior to ingestion!

A cup of butter and two cups of confectioners sugar with a splash of Vanilla.  And that is just the Glaze!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 08, 2019, 05:47:31 AM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............

I don't think he has ever brought home a plain one. I always drink my coffee black, but if I am going to have a donut/pastry at all, I go ahead and have one I really want, like a chocolate frosted cream filled donut or one of those sticky cinnamon rolls. I do tend to use paddles or gym cardio as an eraser sometimes, but it does keep my endurance up. I have watched a full movie while doing cardio, usually the ARC Trainer, several times. Or I have a pouch of spiced salmon over a salad with no dressing for lunch. I eat all the things (except mammal meat), just not on the same day.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 08, 2019, 08:46:46 AM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............

Watch out for this.  There is a regrettable tale from a Maui-downwinder-gone-bad entitled, "Floater at Spartan's" that had a eerily similar beginning.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 10, 2019, 08:00:15 PM
Food for thought......:)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 10, 2019, 08:56:40 PM
Just hit 239 lbs today :) I haven't been in the 230's range in over 3 years. My sugar cravings have diminished considerably. My exercise routine is the same.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 05:32:33 AM
I weighed in at 153 this morning, down 70 pounds since Summer 2017.  I want to push to a low weight before shoulder surgery in a week, as I fear I could gain a few when I am an inactive slug for a while. Hoping the get down to 150 and stay around it for paddling this year. When I go offshore fishing on the big Glide, I want to be able to walk around on it like the deck of a ship.  :)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 07:15:35 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar. I will probably change my tune in a week when I get shoulder surgery. I will be forced to be somewhat inactive for a bit, lowering my overall calorie limit and giving me less "discretionary" calories. Until then, I will eat all the things and then go jump on a cardio machine and binge watch something on my phone.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 11, 2019, 08:05:15 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar.

I'm curious as to why you're in denial that it's evil? Is it simply because you're able to eat sugar and still lose weight?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar.

I'm curious as to why you're in denial that it's evil? Is it simply because you're able to eat sugar and still lose weight?
Pretty much, but also because the reason I do eat them is that is that I really like a lot of the sugary treats. One common reason people fail to keep weight off is denying themselves food they really like during weight loss and then allowing them again, so I got used to rationing so it has been easier to maintain. I probably just need to slowly drop the rationed amount. I have still been logging everything every day even though I have been in maintenance ten and a half months. If I continue to do that, and because of past failures I think I have to, it should be easier to slowly cut back. Kind of sucks to keep logging everything, but I have accepted that I cannot eat intuitively and stay at a healthy weight.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Stew on January 16, 2019, 02:00:08 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 16, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
i am mostly vegan, eat some fish, and mostly successfully avoid added sugar--when i moved diet this way, i dropped from 208 to 185 without thinking about it--i stabilized there and eat as much as i want and remain stable at light fighting weight--nothing to tweak, nothing to cut back etc

if you can stomach what my wife calls "rabbit food", give this a shot

now i do "cheat" occasionally, but i dont sweat it--my intake of crap is pretty damned tiny, certainly when compared to many

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 16, 2019, 06:00:55 PM
i am mostly vegan, eat some fish, and mostly successfully avoid added sugar--when i moved diet this way, i dropped from 208 to 185 without thinking about it--i stabilized there and eat as much as i want and remain stable at light fighting weight--nothing to tweak, nothing to cut back etc

if you can stomach what my wife calls "rabbit food", give this a shot

now i do "cheat" occasionally, but i dont sweat it--my intake of crap is pretty damned tiny, certainly when compared to many

I am one of the many; my intake of sugar is pretty high. If sugar is the devil, I live in hell. I just count calories I eat and burn and make sure the math works. I do eat less volume than a lot of people and it is more work to track carefully, but I dropped from the low 220s to the low 150s over the span of ~9 months. I am 5'8", so that's going from a BMI of 34 to below 24. I am eating in a way I have no trouble sustaining. I don't feel like I am dieting, largely because I don't make certain foods off limits. I just watch portions and sometimes step up burn to compensate for an overage. Weaning off sugar does seem like a diet and is harder for me to do than losing the weight while eating a lot of sugar was. I do think I need to cut back, the more I look into this.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Stew on January 16, 2019, 10:43:55 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 11:29:49 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

This is a great anecdote and everyone should think on it. The word 'diet' is the wrong one to use in my view. Go down that road and its never going to be fun.

I just got back the states and was shocked over the use and volume of corn syrup in their products. That's just awful and its no wonder they are the fattest nation on earth.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 17, 2019, 12:06:05 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 17, 2019, 01:26:23 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.

Pretty sensible approach in my view. My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible. If you avoid processed stuff, you can't go far wrong. I also have the 'water rule'. If I feel hungry, drink some water first (as hunger is often thirst in disguise).

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 17, 2019, 03:24:24 AM
snacks?

easy -- fruit nuts and seeds -- eat as much as you want -- all day!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 17, 2019, 05:03:17 AM
My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible.

Small meals make me angry.  They never satisfy, make me think of food all day and keep me slow.  Something small with coffee in the AM and one big meal does it for me.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 05:08:09 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.

Using the defaults from my tracking app, my goal is over 200g of carbs. I might try changing up the mix and adding more fat. I did eat full fat Greek yogurt a lot while losing. I add PB2 to yogurt a lot and sometimes unsweetened applesauce. If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs. I am going to give lowering sugar substantially a try. I have shoulder surgery tomorrow. No breakfast, not sure I will feel like having lunch, but the pain med I will be taking might require something. I am going to use Sprix, this crazy strong NSAID that you take as a nasal mist but still affects your stomach somehow. I had some issues with opioids and alcohol after previous surgeries. Day 571 fixing that. But step one will still be a lot of carbs, just ones with little sugar like bananas and bread. I have a stash of sweets at the office that is running low and I just won't restock it. I am still going to have the odd one here and there and see how it goes.

Reading some links from this thread and doing more research is changing my mind about sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 17, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

This. I've been eating this way for 6 months and it's a breeze now. I've been traveling for the past week for business and it's sustainable even living out of hotel rooms. If you happen to be near In-N-Out, order a Flying Dutchman, mustard-fried!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 17, 2019, 08:49:01 AM

If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs.


This is a common misconception that has been disproven. Not that everything you read online is fact but here's an article that lays it out well:

https://perfectketo.com/how-too-much-protein-is-bad-for-ketosis/
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 09:22:17 AM

If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs.


This is a common misconception that has been disproven. Not that everything you read online is fact but here's an article that lays it out well:

https://perfectketo.com/how-too-much-protein-is-bad-for-ketosis/

That is written by a sports chiropractor. Hereis an article I read:

https://www.popsci.com/not-in-ketosis

Where the claim about proteins breaking down into carbs is made by a dietitian. Just because she is board certified after a substantial amount of education at an accredited college or university on food science doesn't mean she is more knowledgeable about this than a chiropractor, but I think it is pretty likely.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 10:52:40 AM
An interesting article on a new suggested diet that is better for us and the planet:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/16/health/new-diet-to-save-lives-and-planet-health-study-intl/index.html

One of the reasons I don't eat beef or pork is because of the impact it has. It isn't a possible food source for everyone because it would utilize too many resources.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2019, 01:58:13 PM
I enjoy these discussions for many reasons, one is I'm fat and I'd like to not be. Another is the very strange fact that while much of the world deals with an unbalanced diet because they can't afford better, the number of people who die from improper food or starvation is much smaller than the number who die as a direct result of obesity, and the amount of money spent just in the USA on diets to lose weight would be more than enough famine and diet-imbalanced caused deaths worldwide. Of course there's no useful way to change that, I just appreciate the irony.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2019, 01:59:29 PM
My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible.

Small meals make me angry.  They never satisfy, make me think of food all day and keep me slow.  Something small with coffee in the AM and one big meal does it for me.

I'm trying to imagine what you mean by small meals. I can't begin to reconcile the meals I've watched you eat with the theoretical idea of "small".
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
I enjoy these discussions for many reasons, one is I'm fat and I'd like to not be. Another is the very strange fact that while much of the world deals with an unbalanced diet because they can't afford better, the number of people who die from improper food or starvation is much smaller than the number who die as a direct result of obesity, and the amount of money spent just in the USA on diets to lose weight would be more than enough famine and diet-imbalanced caused deaths worldwide. Of course there's no useful way to change that, I just appreciate the irony.
Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned. Most money spent on weight loss is totally wasted. Losing weight should save money on groceries. That's how it worked for me this time and Have kept my BMI under 25 for almost 11 months so far. This is far and away the most success I have had in decades. The lowest goal weight and the longest at or below goal. It actually hasn't been that hard.

Eating to be healthy at your weight is another matter. I am about to give this reduced sugar idea a try. Going a little crazy today and starting tomorrow after my shoulder surgery. Cut out the sugary snacks and start getting thigh meat instead of skinless breasts. I work best with going cold turkey - line in the sand. It's 8:30 here and I can't eat past midnight, so it's about to begin.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 18, 2019, 12:27:25 AM

Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned.

I don't believe this (at least, not in the UK). Eating fresh (if you want the variety you need or fancy organic) requires considerably more cost than crap ready meals and dodgy pizza's. That's part of the reason why we have an obesity crisis - cost and convenience.

Also, I've recently returned from my usual holiday in the states and I was struck (still) by how badly stocked several supermarkets are out there in comparison to our own here (although I did see an increase in gluten free and organic produce from previous years).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:44:07 AM

Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned.

I don't believe this (at least, not in the UK). Eating fresh (if you want the variety you need or fancy organic) requires considerably more cost than crap ready meals and dodgy pizza's. That's part of the reason why we have an obesity crisis - cost and convenience.

Also, I've recently returned from my usual holiday in the states and I was struck (still) by how badly stocked several supermarkets are out there in comparison to our own here (although I did see an increase in gluten free and organic produce from previous years).
Yes, I agree. In Europe it is expensive to eat well, and takes a lot of time and effort to source the best foodstuffs. There is a whole fast food industry that is determined to make us fat, give us diabetes, and kill us young. They are very good at what they do: getting cheap food lacking in biological value, into your hands. The poorer you are, the more successful they are in doing that.

There is also a strong cultural element. I remember a French colleague of mine being totally baffled by a sign we were looking at in London that said ďAll you can eat for [price]Ē. She asked why we donít buy the BEST food we can get for our money, not the MOST. Itís a good question.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 18, 2019, 05:10:34 AM
I'm trying to imagine what you mean by small meals. I can't begin to reconcile the meals I've watched you eat with the theoretical idea of "small".

Hah!  I don't eat small meals.  Meals and snacking slow me down and I hate that feeling.  I go for one big meal a day.  That way I stay energized, and I am hungry by feed time.  The notion that a little hunger will kill you is a big problem.  A lot of people's whole day is consumed by eating.  When we have visitors I feel like one meal ends just as the next is starting...and then the snacks.  That seems crazy to me (but I am sure they think the same of my way :) ).  I like eating to satisfaction when I eat.  It is really hard to overdo it in a single meal.

PS:  And now I am going to go Facebook on you.  I just made a few loaves of overstuffed bread that turned out sensational.

Carmelized  Onion, Kalamata, Asiago, dusted with Cornmeal
Jalapeno, Red Pepper, Manchego

MMMmm!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 11:47:24 AM
typing one handed today, not quoting doubters about saving money or capitalizing...

note my post was in 2 parts. the saving money part was about losing weight without buying specialty weight loss products or highly restrictive menus. mostly same food only less of it costs less money.

on the second part, it kind of depends on what standards you use for healthy food. i get big bags of individually frozen raw skinless chicken filets, frozen shrimp in bulk when on sale and while i really like mahi and grouper, i also enjoy haddock and even whiting and croaker. store brand yogurt, cheese, eggs, rice, dry beans, etc. my fresh produce doesn't usually come from the organic section and i am okay with cheap bagged salads like marketside. i eat grain products with gluten. i save a lot of money making my own meals compared to fast food.

i did have my facts sort of wrong in my post. 55% of those who lost weight and kept it off did it with "the help of some kind of program".
http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm

i say sort of wrong because using a calorie goal and tracking what you eat (i use myfitnesspal) is considered a kind of program even though i have no restriction past calorie total and a suggested macro ratio i can change. eating a keto diet or following any sort of guideline is considered a program.

on the subject of eating healthy, if you insist on free range eggs, organic meat/produce and avoid virtually all additives, it is more expensive.

edit to add - in 6 weeks i will qualify to add my data to the national weight loss registry. it will be 1 year with my bmi below 25, which was my goal. currently it is 23.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 02:23:43 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 03:48:23 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.

i just looked up the protein bars - pure protein brand - and the 50g bars i have each have 20g whey protein and claim only 2-3g sugar. look close at ingredients - 8g "sugar alcohol". wtf? read their warnings on them. ok, these are going away.

(https://www.pureprotein.com/-/media/pureprotein/product-catalog/products/chocolate-peanut-butter-bar/peanut-butter-50g.jpg)

dessert exemption will be very rare and i night get rid of it. i just don't want to start cravings by deciding "never ever". i play a lot of mind games with myself.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 06:30:59 PM
Yeah, most of these ďprotein barsĒ and other convenience ďsportsĒ stuff is just crap your body can do without. Theyíll make you feel worse, not better. If you need a snack on the go, buy a bag of unsalted nuts, drink a load of water, and maybe have a coffee with plenty of cream (no milk), if you can tolerate caffeine. Most raw fruit in moderate amounts is OKish too, and any amounts of vegetables you can eat. Try e.g. raw carrot or celery with hummus, or munch away on a tomato. Basically, try to avoid nearly all of the stuff that advertising is trying to get you to eat. They want to make you fat and depressed. Give them the traditional salute youíd give anyone who wants to ruin your life while filling their pockets with your money.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 18, 2019, 09:08:48 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.

i just looked up the protein bars - pure protein brand - and the 50g bars i have each have 20g whey protein and claim only 2-3g sugar. look close at ingredients - 8g "sugar alcohol". wtf? read their warnings on them. ok, these are going away.

(https://www.pureprotein.com/-/media/pureprotein/product-catalog/products/chocolate-peanut-butter-bar/peanut-butter-50g.jpg)

dessert exemption will be very rare and i night get rid of it. i just don't want to start cravings by deciding "never ever". i play a lot of mind games with myself.
Sugar's noddy cousin. Sugar Alcohol. 
https://www.joslin.org/info/what_are_sugar_alcohols.html