Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Training, Diet, and Fitness => Topic started by: TallDude on December 20, 2018, 08:29:53 PM

Title: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 20, 2018, 08:29:53 PM
Poking around through some diet research and came across this... It's eye opening for me. Too many sweet snacks. Something has to change:(

https://news.yale.edu/2018/12/17/sugar-targets-gut-microbe-linked-lean-and-healthy-people?utm_source=YNemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=yn-12-20-18



Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 21, 2018, 02:25:41 AM
I know, but it tastes so good!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 21, 2018, 07:41:20 AM
Interesting. My extensive research with a sample size of one doesn't completely concur with that. I was overweight (BMI was just over 33) and out of shape until late summer of 2017, when I decided to get serious about it before I turn 60 if I wanted to improve the likelihood I will have a long and healthy retirement. I lost over 65 pounds and have a BMI under 25. Next week I will turn 60 with visible abs. Paddling SUP like a mad man during 2018 had a lot to do with this, but most of the weight comes off by consuming less than you burn, which I did. But to make it sustainable, I limited portions rather than making things off limits. I have a sweet tooth and eat a lot of sugar. Like way over the suggested limit. I had a carb heavy diet with a lot of sugar even while I was dropping weight and still do as I am now maintaining it. It is definitely possible to get lean and fit while consuming a lot of sugar, at least IME.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: stoneaxe on December 21, 2018, 09:51:16 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking....:)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 21, 2018, 10:19:24 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking....:)
"The boat is taking on water!" ...... I'll fix the bilge pump.........right after I finish these cookies. ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:21:43 AM
5 months ago, almost to the day, my wife and I changed our diets and eliminated sugar and carbs. Weíre now fat adapted, meaning our body isnít being fueled by glucose anymore and now is running on fat. Without making a single change to our exercise or activity levels, I went from 197 to 157 and she went from 130 to 110. Weíve discovered lots of natural sweeteners that donít spike insulin levels and have had a great time baking and substituting these for regular sugar. Iíve never felt better. Just another sample size of 1 (well, technically 2) here but Iím definitely against sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: rbgar on December 21, 2018, 10:37:00 AM
wow Dog, that's awesome!!!!!!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Subber on December 21, 2018, 10:39:21 AM
Excellent you guys!

Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Several years ago now, I went on keto (very low carb among other things) and dropped about 2.5 pounds per week
over about three months down to 173 from 195 so 22 pounds (I still was not as skinny as you two are now).
I was paddling about the same amount.  I also did a bit of fasting - nothing much, just skipping a meal every once
in a while if I wasn't on track.

I will say I was a bit disappointed that my endurance and recovery didn't seem to be better at the lower weight -
but that maybe related to my own health issues.

I held the low weight for about six months.

I've said my higher weight was "all social" - I still think so.  As, I kind of abandoned the super low carb diet
due to social pressures - who I'm around and what they like to eat, etc. and gained it all back and a bit more.

So, anyway, for me, cutting the sugar definitely reduced the weight.

I'd like to do it again sustainably - maybe at the bottom weight, portion control is how to handle "social situations"
(bad influencers).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 21, 2018, 10:39:54 AM
Awesome John! I'm going to have to do something solo though. My wife eats the opposite of what I should be eating and I'm not going ask her to change. I need to make a big time effort to get back too the 225 range. It would open a whole range of lower volume boards to me;) Plus I'm sure I'll feel better.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:45:41 AM
Excellent you guys!

Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Several years ago now, I went on keto (very low carb among other things) and dropped about 2.5 pounds per week
over about three months down to 173 from 195 so 22 pounds (I still was not as skinny as you two are now).
I was paddling about the same amount.  I also did a bit of fasting - nothing much, just skipping a meal every once
in a while if I wasn't on track.

I will say I was a bit disappointed that my endurance and recovery didn't seem to be better at the lower weight -
but that maybe related to my own health issues.

I held the low weight for about six months.

I've said my higher weight was "all social" - I still think so.  As, I kind of abandoned the super low carb diet
due to social pressures - who I'm around and what they like to eat, etc. and gained it all back and a bit more.

So, anyway, for me, cutting the sugar definitely reduced the weight.

I'd like to do it again sustainably - maybe at the bottom weight, portion control is how to handle "social situations"
(bad influencers).

Subber, we're doing keto. I'm hungrier now than I was when we first started but that's obviously because I have much less fat now. I'm eating at a maintenance level right now, so not trying to lose any more. I do 16:8 intermittent fasting pretty much every day. My endurance, performance and recovery definitely suffered for the first couple of months, which is expected, but now I feel excellent. Not sure if it's coincidental and definitely not trying to preach keto but I also suffer from asthma and have not needed to use any of my inhalers in 3 months. I was using them pretty much daily before this. My surf sessions have doubled and tripled in duration too.

Social pressure has been a learning curve, especially with our families and relatives. They don't get it and that's ok. We made it through Thanksgiving fairly easily and think Christmas/New Years won't be a problem. We just do a lot of the cooking/baking for get-togethers, that way we have control over it. The great thing is that most keto foods and desserts taste amazing to everyone thanks to all of the butter  ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 21, 2018, 10:48:04 AM
It would open a whole range of lower volume boards to me;) Plus I'm sure I'll feel better.

Matt.... THIS! My go-to board right now is 7'11x27 85L and that's with wearing full rubber. Pretty insane to think I can even stand on it, let alone have a 3 hour session on it. I know I can go smaller too but just don't see the need although I'm going to see what Dave has kicking around the shop when I'm out in Dana Point in January.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on December 21, 2018, 11:23:13 AM
Does that mean I shouldn't eat the toll house cookies I'm baking.... :)
I'll take them!


Years ago, I worked at a big (compared to working for myself) company.  Starting about mid-December, we always got all kinds of cookies, cheesecakes, etc. from companies that worked with us.  Everyone went crazy the first few days, then got sugared out, except me, which was great because I had it all to myself the last few days.


Then (also years ago) I left in January to work for myself.  Almost a year later, I got a delivery to my house on December 24th from my old company.  It was box after box of Christmas cookies and chocolate.  The note said they didn't know why they had so many goodies piling up, then realized it was because I wasn't there, so they had it all delivered to me.  It was great.


But I'm a lot older now, so definitely those days are over.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: goodfornothin on December 21, 2018, 12:32:02 PM
HA, i was king of sugar, i lived in mammoth and worked out of LA County. 4 hr drive to work. I hated coffee.  So at 3am, id fill up with gas in Bishop, get a 64oz of dr pepper and as many laughy taffies and 3 muskateers that i could stomache. Id get myself just to puking stage.  It worked perfectly, i never fell asleep once driving to work,

And then there were the overtimers bringing in the gallon of ice cream, so id eat at least a half gallon of ice cream a shift, and then if there were heavy calls or holidays the station would be full of cookies and brownies,,and it usually took me a dozen before i could tell if i liked them

Then i got lung cancer, thyroid cancer, melanoma, pancreatic and kidney cancer,,,,and now if i have 1mg of sugar or any bread i get instant gout throughout my body.

There are repurcussions to processed sugars, especially if you are carrying a load of heavy metals, parasites, and fungus. 

If you are not producing enough glutathione, then its all compounded.

The shit aint good for you, no matter how skinny you are..

But god dam i could use a doughnut right now, haha
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 21, 2018, 12:34:27 PM
Excellent you guys!
Do you have to feel a bit hungry to lose the weight?

Thanks.
You don't have to feel hungry. I sometimes did and do if i go too far overboard on sweets as they aren't all that filling. I log everything and make sure the number of calories I consume is less than the amount I burn. I use a food scale a lot to make sure I am logging what I actually eat and not just what the package says a serving is. That's what all diets boil down to - a calorie deficit; it's just personal preference as to whether you get most of your calories in carbs or not as long as you are getting reasonable amounts of carbs, protein and fat. It's also a matter of what you can keep doing in maintenance.

I have been in maintenance for almost 10 months. I eat pretty much the same food as I always have, but I will make trade offs sometimes. I still log everything because I suck at eating the right amount naturally. A couple of years back I stopped eating mammal meat, so I get most of my protein from chicken, seafood and vegetarian sources.  So my protein sources are low fat. Mostly I had to make sure I wasn't going overboard on portions. The food scale is a real eye opener; finding out what is an actual serving of cereal, ice cream, nuts, etc is a little depressing.

I am kind of bad about using exercise as an eraser. During the summer, I would often go into work very early in the AM so I could knock off early and go paddle 10 miles. Since it has been cooler, I got one of the $10 a month Planet Fitness memberships at a location near my office. I go there early AM, do an hour of cardio and a few minutes of weights and the endless rope (great exercise for paddling muscles), shower and head into the office. I say "kind of bad" because I am often driven by the desire to get a bigger calorie allowance instead of just the desire to get fit, but the end result is getting pretty fit and I really like feeling this way. I plan to do a lot of paddling in 2019.

I could go pretty low volume on a board but my most recent one is a big battleship - a 2016 14x30 Glide -  because I want the ability to haul a lot of gear and sometimes an extra person, plus the stability for open ocean touring. I plan to do a lot of fishing nearshore up to maybe 3 miles out and i will have all the gear to haul out there and need the capacity to haul giant tuna back in. It doesn't hurt that they are trying very hard to get rid of them and slashed the price 50% plus free shipping.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Cruisinby on December 21, 2018, 06:42:12 PM
Last yr I was forced into elimenating most all sugar from my diet.    After 3 months many of the aches and joint pain were gone or leaving.   After 6 months I could tell a hugh difference in how I felt.   I mentioned this to my doc during a physical, his reply was if all his patients over 55 ( I"m 66 ) would go sugar free most of their joints issues would go away.    THis yr my doc also found my uric acid levels were way to high.   With his help I have lowered it to below normal which also helps with joint pain.    Best I have felt in yrs.   Truth be known I really miss the CC cookies, ice cream etc.    I will go with less pain !  =  more water time !
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on December 22, 2018, 04:13:35 AM
my general practitioner told me she thinks refined sugar is the current tobacco--pure poison, well marketed--soon to be id'ed for what it truly is--i didnt ask for an explanation but she's the best dr ive ever had--pricey---but she takes her time and aint no slouch--my duaghter stalked her and she grad'ed numero uno from her med school class at penn, currently top-rated med school in the country

but yeah refined sugar of any type shd be avoided

kaya--i could show you a simlar before and after on me---208 down to 188---i made zero effort, but for a change to a diet that varies BTWN vegetarian, pescatarian and vegan---no dairy means no several pints of haagen dazs per week, a good start!

last night at a party, there was an amazing dessert layout--i approached it, hesitated and walked away--i dont always
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 23, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
The science on types of sugar is pretty clear that refined/added sugar is treated no differently than naturally occurring sugar. The big problem is that you get more sugar than you realize when a lot is added, which means your calorie total for what seems like a reasonable day can be a lot higher. There are some differences for diabetics, but that even applies to some "natural" sources as well. I quoted "natural" because none of the stuff is lab made; the sources are sugar cane, corn and beets mostly.

The main reason I am considering watching it closer and cutting back is that I can end up hitting my calorie goal and still be hungry. Calorie dense fatty foods tend to be more satiating than calorie dense carbs, which is a big reason for the popularity of keto. If you eat less calories than you burn and you have plenty of fat, that's primarily what gets burned no matter what your diet is.

Here is info on how sugar is refined:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCLEYmugfDw

Yes, there are several steps where simple compound chemicals are added, most have natural sources. It's not a crazy scary process using harsh chemicals. Calcium carbonate is a naturally occurring compound used as an antacid and a supplement you can find in health food stores. Phosphoric acid is a weak non toxic acid widely used in foods for a slightly sour flavoring - soft drinks, jams/jellies, beer (it is even in a lot of craft and home brewed beers), etc. Unless you are very hardcore about avoiding anything processed, you probably consume a fair amount of both of these chemicals, but oddly enough, very little of it is left in refined sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: iopsailor on December 23, 2018, 07:24:27 AM
My wife and I have got in the habit of eating one square of dark chocolate after lunch.  For some reason, it leaves us totally satisfied, unlike Oreos or candy bars which zoom through the body and leave you wanting more.  Anybody gotta clue?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2018, 11:40:30 AM
My wife and I have got in the habit of eating one square of dark chocolate after lunch.  For some reason, it leaves us totally satisfied, unlike Oreos or candy bars which zoom through the body and leave you wanting more.  Anybody gotta clue?

Here's the answer--it's a lot like why ketchup is such a popular condiment--because it satisfies multiple taste and smell components. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an interesting article about that years ago. Chocolate, especially darker varieties, satisfy a large number of appetites.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/comfort-cravings/201402/why-do-we-crave-chocolate-so-much
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: natas585 on December 25, 2018, 01:48:32 PM
Any type of diet will work for losing weight as long as the calories consumed are less than the calories used over time. Now a good diet is one you can adhere to for basically as long as possible or needed. I can lose weight on a cookie diet, sorry it's true. And so can you if you eat less than your body uses. Now it won't be healthy because you're obviously not getting all the nutrients you need to operate and repair tissues. If you want to avoid sugar, go ahead, but it is not inherently bad for you to consume. If you eat like an asshole and your diet consists of a bunch of empty calories  consisting  of high amounts of carbs/sugars you probably won't have the best metabolic health. But the reason isn't the sugar itself. The brain operates mainly on carbohydrates which are sugars. And paddling as an activity uses mainly carbs for fuel. Your body can become adapted to using mainly fat but not only is it difficult it's also not ideal for almost any athlete. Meaning, sure it can work, but the amount of benefit has very little to no increased performance or health benefit to just eating a well balanced diet structured to your activity level. If something works for you great. But when we are talking about a majority or the average athletic population the science is out there and easily located. Now some of us have certain genes that will predispose us to being able to not get fat as easily as others, process caffeine fast or slow, and have more of a certain muscle fiber. All of us can benefit from getting stronger and eating what our bodies need everyday rather than mostly what we want or like. Get the proper protein, fats, and carbs, and micronutrients each day and if you have extra calories available eat whatever you want.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 25, 2018, 02:28:58 PM
I am glad to see someone come along beating the same drum, more or less. I lost ~65 pounds without following any specific diet instructions, just tracking everything and becoming aware of what I can and can't have within a short amount of time or I will run too short of calories to eat properly or will be too hungry. It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. I choose to eat a lot of carbs, and much of that is sugar. As I said in another post, the only reason I am thinking about adjusting that down a bit is because I often find myself wanting another snack and not having enough left. I can borrow a little from tomorrow, but that's a slippery slope.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 26, 2018, 03:46:04 AM
It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. .

I am right to the number.  Any calories to junk and I am dragging.  Any over my number is a gain day.  It also depends on your goals.  If you are pleased with 10% body fat then you have a lot of wiggle room (and a lot of wiggle).  If you want to get to 6% or lower and have energy all day then it is a (unicorn) rare person that has any calories to spare.

This is still the best article on sugar that I have seen: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&

Here is an old thread on the topic that had some interesting stuff:

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25180.0.html
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 26, 2018, 04:46:38 AM
It doesn't take all your calories to cover the bases for basic nutrition and a substantial chunk of daily calories is discretionary even while in deficit. .

I am right to the number.  Any calories to junk and I am dragging.  Any over my number is a gain day.  It also depends on your goals.  If you are pleased with 10% body fat then you have a lot of wiggle room (and a lot of wiggle).  If you want to get to 6% or lower and have energy all day then it is a (unicorn) rare person that has any calories to spare.

This is still the best article on sugar that I have seen: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&

Here is an old thread on the topic that had some interesting stuff:

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25180.0.html

That article is more compelling than most arguments I hear.  He does a good job explaining the science instead of just referencing something that is hard to understand and doesn't tell the whole story.

On the point of fat, I Googled up a few charts and this one seems fairly common at fitness sites that usually have good info:

(https://i1.wp.com/www.vitfit.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Male-body-fat-.png)

10% BF is only .1% above the bottom of the range for an athlete for my age. I am not "pleased with 10%" - I am ecstatic about 15%. I have visible abs. This chart:

(https://eatsmartproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2017/08/body_fat-percentages-chart-eatsmart.png)

Says optimal for my age is 19-25% and below 18 is low.  I call BS on that.

Another one for good measure. It says below 12% is underfat for me. I am not cherry picking, BTW. I can't find any chart that says it is healthy for me to get down into the single digits.

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 26, 2018, 02:30:42 PM
I like the image below.  :)  It will depend on your goals and where you find that your body feels the most capable and healthy.  For me there is no comparison.  Minimal excess has all the advantages.  If you are enjoying increased fitness at 15% you might want to see how lower feels.  It is a cool experiment at the very least. 

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25180.0;attach=51993;image)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 26, 2018, 03:44:12 PM
To me, that concurs with what the charts I found say. The lowest one that looks healthy to me is the 10-12 and the highest one is the 20. The 3-4% guy looks like a villain from a Marvel movie. I might be a little under 15 or maybe just have fat that's distributed differently. I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on December 26, 2018, 04:20:35 PM
I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.
So 15% would be considered ab normal?
That's my goal....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 26, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
I like the image below.  :)  It will depend on your goals and where you find that your body feels the most capable and healthy.  For me there is no comparison.  Minimal excess has all the advantages.  If you are enjoying increased fitness at 15% you might want to see how lower feels.  It is a cool experiment at the very least. 

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25180.0;attach=51993;image)

Thought that pic to be valid -> but found it really depends on age.  So can be very deceiving.  At 60 or so the cutoff for very very lean is quite high comparatively.  Take a DEXA scan to see your true BF%.  This was my third one.  They rate based on Z-Score which is a very good representation on where you stand vs your peers.  But take one to also track your muscle mass gains and losses -> as well as BMD.  Those 2 were much more important to me.  Most important tho were comparative blood tests as diet was massaged.  That is where the most important gains were made by far.  Yeah abs are one thing.  Overrated really.  But insides are key.  Much rather have no abs -> but perfect blood numbers.  As always YMMV.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 27, 2018, 03:24:02 AM
To me, that concurs with what the charts I found say. The lowest one that looks healthy to me is the 10-12 and the highest one is the 20. The 3-4% guy looks like a villain from a Marvel movie. I might be a little under 15 or maybe just have fat that's distributed differently. I don't have quite as much ab definition as the 10-12 guy, but more than the 15.

Hi Ride,

I am not sure why they switched to gym guy for 6-7 percent :).  It would have been better if they had kept it more similar.  Bulk is certainly  not required for lower body fat.  Rock climbers are great examples of ultra lean / max strength.  That to me is the goal.  I actually think most people can get there just by shedding all of the junk, but for most  of us it really has to be that. The all is the critical factor and is the start of the most easily sustainable eating habit.  Once its gone for a while there are no cravings. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on December 27, 2018, 03:33:20 AM
admin, i have no issue eating extremely well when i cook for myself--as usual, it's other people who are the problem!

any social eating of food prepared by others, or restaurant food (at least in my world) is laden with sugar salt and unhealthy fats

cravings? bah....no problem with that---problem is about staying on track while trying to be a social human
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 27, 2018, 04:36:35 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 27, 2018, 05:22:32 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on December 27, 2018, 05:30:27 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.

That is a good point.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on December 27, 2018, 10:36:12 AM
Of course this thread had to start during the time of year where there's the most sugar flowing through my house!
The trite weight loss/management advice is legit - What you eat between Christmas and New Year's is not nearly as important as what you eat between New Year's and Christmas.

That is a good point.

It amazes me how many people don't get it. They brag about not gaining over Christmas, but don't do the math when they return to normal habits.

320 cals - Pumpkin pie
20   cals - light Cool Whip

140 cals - Coke
215 cals - Snickers

400 cals - Turkey, dressing, mashed potatoes and gravy

870 cals - quarter pounder with cheese extra value meal

etc, etc, etc...
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on December 28, 2018, 06:17:33 PM
O.K., Iím convinced. Actually, I have been thinking about sugar for some time now, but this thread has helped kick me in the butt to finally do something.

I have a major sweet tooth. I consume a lot of sugar in the cookies, chocolate bars and sweets I eat. Funny thing is, Iím not overweight, and every time I go for a check up my blood sugar numbers always come back within normal limits. But in the back of my mind I have been concerned.

So Iím going to take a stab at reducing the amount of sugar I eat. Not sure how Iíll make out, but Iím going to give it a try. So thanks to all those who have posted here. And a special thanks to Admin., for his posting and the links he included to the New York Times Article and the previous thread on the Zone. I got a lot out of both.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 29, 2018, 01:02:33 AM
QB sugar is a major evil.  While I still consume Christmas cookies and dark chocolate -> take no sugar in my daily coffee.  No added sugar in everyday eating.  But do partake in sipping rum straight which is all sugar with friends.  Like I did tonight.  3 rums for taste testing.  Haha.

My perspective is moderation with no deprivation.  Has worked wonders for close to 5 years now.  Took off about 25 lbs of blubber and put on about 15 lbs of muscle.  Is possible even as you age -> but takes a lot of dedication.  In all well worth the expense in time and effort.  No question.  That and the 23Ē AS have been key for me.  Hardly use my wider boards anymore.  23 for balance.  Weights for muscle mass.  Good diet overall for good blood numbers.  Yeah abs also -> but who really cares.

https://youtu.be/K3ksKkCOgTw
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on December 29, 2018, 03:25:52 AM
Changing your sugar diet can be pretty tricky at first.  It is amazing how we build up to these little tent posts in our days.  Small things that we allow ourselves that become strong habits which we then defend even more strongly to ourselves.  Not doing something that has been a mini reward , a micro highlight, is very hard.  But, once it has been broken, its gone.  That may take 3-6 months to really take hold.  After being without it for that period, you stop craving it entirely and even being around it won't really draw you in.  It will actually be shocking how sweet sweets taste when you try them again.  I had pecan pie at thanksgiving (my favorite, actually rhubarb too, actually all pie) and it blew me away how over the top it was.  Don't get me wrong, it was fantastic, but holy shit!  I also was getting sugar hangovers (at least that is what they felt like).  That made it easier for me to quit as well. 

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on December 29, 2018, 06:42:32 AM
I second how soon you can kick cravings and how sensitive your taste buds can become. After cutting out sugar, including fruit, I introduced berries back into my diet. The first time having berries after 5 months and it felt like I was eating candy.

There are lots of natural sweeteners out there that donít spike insulin and Iím not talking about honey or pure maple syrup. Try erythritol or monk fruit. Youíll be amazed at how good it can taste. Just be careful, substituting natural sweeteners for sugar wonít eliminate your cravings.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Eagle on December 29, 2018, 09:19:05 AM
Changing your sugar diet can be pretty tricky at first.....

Yeah does take a bit to get sorted.  But once you take out added sugar -> that alone is a big chunk.  Then cutting back on refined carbs will get you well on your way.  Did that until most excess fat was gone.  Then focused on optimizing blood numbers. 

Def bloodwork took a lot more effort and time to sort as ďin rangeĒ -> does not necessarily mean ďoptimalĒ by any stretch.  From there it has been straightforward maintenance.  So adding back in some sugar has been without much consequence.  Since when cleaned up -> your body processes toxic junk pretty easy.  Instead of turning it into inflammatory fire which is the typical situation.

But sugar for the most part is not good to ingest at all.  Just like alcohol or smoke.  In fact most man-made packaged products are not that great.  Sugar in particular is pretty toxic -> especially at the molecular level.  So best to cut back for sure.  Tons of clinical trial data on this.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 03, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
Update.... -5 lbs today :)  I haven't been 240 since I had the flu 2 years ago. No more need for afternoon naps. Eating pretty much the same things, just avoiding the obvious sugar items. Feeling pretty good too. Lots of fruits and nuts and water. My drink has become water with a splash of OJ. Last night I had a major craving for chocolate. Took out one of my favorite snacks, dark chocolate covered almonds. I placed one on my desk as I worked. It stayed there in view and untouched the whole night. Like a cigarette laying there in plain view, tempting a smoker trying to give up smoking. It was tough. I survived the moment and have been trying to find additional snack substitutes. Dried apricots and sugar free peanut butter seems to be working. Any suggestions? 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: goodfornothin on January 04, 2019, 10:11:35 AM
(All organic)Banannas or green apples sliced, peanut butter, salt, sorguhms syrup, sprinkle coconut shavings on top
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 04, 2019, 10:33:07 AM
(All organic)Banannas or green apples sliced, peanut butter, salt, sorguhms syrup, sprinkle coconut shavings on top
Sorghum's sweetness is primarily from sucrose and fructose. It also has some other simple sugars. It has more calories per unit of measure than white sugar. It is raw with a small amount of natural sediment (aka dirt/dust) in it. It is less processed than white sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on January 04, 2019, 06:17:13 PM
Update.... -5 lbs today :)  I haven't been 240 since I had the flu 2 years ago. No more need for afternoon naps. Eating pretty much the same things, just avoiding the obvious sugar items. Feeling pretty good too. Lots of fruits and nuts and water. My drink has become water with a splash of OJ. Last night I had a major craving for chocolate. Took out one of my favorite snacks, dark chocolate covered almonds. I placed one on my desk as I worked. It stayed there in view and untouched the whole night. Like a cigarette laying there in plain view, tempting a smoker trying to give up smoking. It was tough. I survived the moment and have been trying to find additional snack substitutes. Dried apricots and sugar free peanut butter seems to be working. Any suggestions?


TallDude, congrats on the 5 pounds. Also have to say that youíre a stronger man than me. No way I could have chocolate sitting beside me all night and not eat it. With me, if itís in sight, itís going to get eaten. All my chocolate bars and cookies went into the freezer, and so far I havenít been tempted. Although, to give myself a bit of credit, I was out a few days ago where brownies were available (one of my favourites) and I resisted.

As for snacks, what I sometimes do is take walnuts and almonds, roast them in the oven, and eat them this way. I was surprised how much better they taste roasted.

And just a quick word about fruits. I havenít given up all fruits, but they do contain sugar. I know itís not refined sugar, but from what Iím told sugar is sugar, and none of it is great. I love bananas but have stopped eating them as they are particularly high in sugar content. And if I remember correctly, the sugar content of fruit juices, even pure fruit juices, is higher than the fruit itself. Just something to be aware of.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 04, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Congrats Matt, keep it up. If you want a chocolate alternative for cravings, check out Lilyís brand. They make bars, baking chips, etc and are sweetened with stevia. My favorite nuts are macadamia and sometimes Iíll sprinkle some baking cocoa and some erythritol on them. I like them roasted and salted and this hits the spot. A big eye opener was weighing everything I eat. Itís amazing how I used to grab a couple handlful of nuts, which is probably 1.5-2 servings per handful.

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 04, 2019, 08:27:06 PM
Congrats Matt, keep it up. If you want a chocolate alternative for cravings, check out Lilyís brand. They make bars, baking chips, etc and are sweetened with stevia. My favorite nuts are macadamia and sometimes Iíll sprinkle some baking cocoa and some erythritol on them. I like them roasted and salted and this hits the spot. A big eye opener was weighing everything I eat. Itís amazing how I used to grab a couple handlful of nuts, which is probably 1.5-2 servings per handful.
A food scale is key IMO. Learning what portions really look like was one of the biggest contributors to success in hitting my goal (BMI under 25, down from over 33). I have continued weighing and logging during maintenance - over 10 months now. Eating "naturally" just doesn't work for me. I do that "too small to count" grazing and it adds up if I grab a few raisins and nuts just about every time I pass through the kitchen. Or I screw up estimating portions or not checking the caloric content of foods I think aren't that bad.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 04, 2019, 09:55:07 PM
Thanks for the dark chocolate w/ stevia Kayadogg. Just bought some on Amazon. I've been having half an apple and a couple of spoonfuls of peanut butter with no added sugar for an evening dessert. I'm just scratching the surface. I've been reading more about it and learning a little. Even OJ is high in sugar, so I'm drinking more decaf coffee with nothing added and lots of water. As far as weighing what I eat..... I'll have to work my way towards that.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 05, 2019, 09:01:17 AM
My wife and I have made a habit of logging all of our meals and exercise with the MyFitnessPal app. It was a pain in the ass at first,  but we stuck with it and have been able to maintain our weight goal for over 2 years. It has been a "lifestyle change" but well worth it as we have been healthy and feel good. (much cheaper and more fun than being sick). The app enables looking at "reports" showing how much sugar, fiber, carbs, protein etc. etc. you are eating making it easy to see just what foods are doing to your diet.
By the way,  I have given up alcohol for over 3 weeks now and I do feel like I have more energy and I am sleeping better. I do still put a touch of lime vodka on top of my bloody mary's and my grapefruit juice....but I am cutting back on the number of those tasty drinks as well.  Unsweetened almond milk is my new go to drink.
Happy New Year everyone!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 05, 2019, 09:50:31 AM
My wife and I have made a habit of logging all of our meals and exercise with the MyFitnessPal app. It was a pain in the ass at first,  but we stuck with it and have been able to maintain our weight goal for over 2 years. It has been a "lifestyle change" but well worth it as we have been healthy and feel good. (much cheaper and more fun than being sick). The app enables looking at "reports" showing how much sugar, fiber, carbs, protein etc. etc. you are eating making it easy to see just what foods are doing to your diet.
By the way,  I have given up alcohol for over 3 weeks now and I do feel like I have more energy and I am sleeping better. I do still put a touch of lime vodka on top of my bloody mary's and my grapefruit juice....but I am cutting back on the number of those tasty drinks as well.  Unsweetened almond milk is my new go to drink.
Happy New Year everyone!

I also log with mfp 10 months into maintenance; keeps me honest. I have been alcohol free for over 18 months, though there was more fueling my decision than just weight loss. The weight loss started shortly after as did getting into shape; it was a factor in giving a damn about those things. I didn't want to turn 60 drinking when I had some issues with it or overweight or out of shape. I turned 60 in late December with none of those factors in play. There are no guarantees, but it greatly increases my chances of having significantly more healthy years left than if I had not addressed the major risk factors.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 05, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
60 last novótempted to ditch booze tooóworry that, if retired, might drink more oftenónever drank much on ďschool nightsĒó-prolly leave the green turned on, turn off the boozeórefined sugar? When I indulge, seems I get ďhangoversĒ tooóand much moreso, seems, if I let my guard down and eat like shit, i feel like shit

As with booze hangoversówhen young, Iíd shrug off a serious night out by 10am the next morningówhere, over the last many years, the few times Iíve tied a serious one on, itís been a 2 day recovery process.

Refined sugar is poisonólove a banana/nut butter snackósatisfying and all good
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 05, 2019, 01:29:00 PM
Alcohol is a risk factor in any amount according to the most recent study. It was actually a study of other studies. There are benefits to small quantities for various reasons, but also some negatives even for small amounts. They ran all the numbers and math indicates that the risks outweigh the benefits. Not by much if it's small amounts. But if you drink to excess somewhat often, which is what I was doing, it's a substantial health risk. There is also a significant chance of frequency increasing in retirement. I didn't want to become the great uncle that reeks of alcohol every time you see him and doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have it completely under control, that's not as much of a concern.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 06, 2019, 02:37:55 AM
The mindset that we adopt is kind of crazy when you break it down.  There are 30 million delicious things we can eat.  We can fill our entire calorie budget with different fantastic things that are awesome for diet, health, energy, etc.  But, somehow we focus on the few things that suck for us and no matter that we are eating amazing stuff all day, it is those crap things that we can't live without.  Change that mindset, make the delicious good stuff the habit, and the other stuff loses its pull.  If you eating a tenderloin, do you need to be thinking, "it sucks that I can't have my pork rinds right now". 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 06, 2019, 07:34:39 AM
The mindset that we adopt is kind of crazy when you break it down.  There are 30 million delicious things we can eat.  We can fill our entire calorie budget with different fantastic things that are awesome for diet, health, energy, etc.  But, somehow we focus on the few things that suck for us and no matter that we are eating amazing stuff all day, it is those crap things that we can't live without.  Change that mindset, make the delicious good stuff the habit, and the other stuff loses its pull.  If you eating a tenderloin, do you need to be thinking, "it sucks that I can't have my pork rinds right now".
Then we have our personal quirks. I don't eat mammal meat (a mix of compassion and protest against "elite farming" that can't scale due to excessive use of resources), so your example is two things I don't eat. Poultry and seafood (my compassion only goes so far and the resource use to produce is much lower) are generally lower in calories so I am left with more "discretionary calories" and that's where my sweet/fat tooth kicks in. Or sometimes I choose fish and chips as a meal and blow over half my daily allotment on one meal.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 06, 2019, 08:50:33 AM
Of course I did just bake these from the yeast up with my grandson.  If you want to test your resolve, the smell of baking Cinnamon rolls will do it :).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on January 06, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
Of course I did just bake these from the yeast up with my grandson.  If you want to test your resolve, the smell of baking Cinnamon rolls will do it :).


Now this is just wrong. There should be some kind of law against posting pictures like these in a thread on the evils of sugar  ; ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 07, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
obvi you melt sweet butter all over them sticky buns prior to ingestion!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 07, 2019, 02:29:20 PM
Took my teen age kids to the donut shop this weekend and was able to restrain myself. Then my wife baked chocolate chip cookies. Again, I looked the other way:( It's tough....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 07, 2019, 04:54:55 PM
One of my kids works at Dunkin'. Usually he works an early shift but every now and then he closes and sometimes brings home some stuff that would have been tossed. He's pretty good at picking ones that keep best and boxing them quickly. I would like to say they aren't nearly as good the next morning, but the truth is they are still pretty darn good.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 07, 2019, 08:10:42 PM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 08, 2019, 02:40:15 AM
obvi you melt sweet butter all over them sticky buns prior to ingestion!

A cup of butter and two cups of confectioners sugar with a splash of Vanilla.  And that is just the Glaze!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 08, 2019, 05:47:31 AM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............

I don't think he has ever brought home a plain one. I always drink my coffee black, but if I am going to have a donut/pastry at all, I go ahead and have one I really want, like a chocolate frosted cream filled donut or one of those sticky cinnamon rolls. I do tend to use paddles or gym cardio as an eraser sometimes, but it does keep my endurance up. I have watched a full movie while doing cardio, usually the ARC Trainer, several times. Or I have a pouch of spiced salmon over a salad with no dressing for lunch. I eat all the things (except mammal meat), just not on the same day.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 08, 2019, 08:46:46 AM
Might I suggest one plain dunk'in donut along with BLACK dark roast coffee......followed by a quick 6 mile paddle......should do no harm :)............

Watch out for this.  There is a regrettable tale from a Maui-downwinder-gone-bad entitled, "Floater at Spartan's" that had a eerily similar beginning.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 10, 2019, 08:00:15 PM
Food for thought......:)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 10, 2019, 08:56:40 PM
Just hit 239 lbs today :) I haven't been in the 230's range in over 3 years. My sugar cravings have diminished considerably. My exercise routine is the same.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 05:32:33 AM
I weighed in at 153 this morning, down 70 pounds since Summer 2017.  I want to push to a low weight before shoulder surgery in a week, as I fear I could gain a few when I am an inactive slug for a while. Hoping the get down to 150 and stay around it for paddling this year. When I go offshore fishing on the big Glide, I want to be able to walk around on it like the deck of a ship.  :)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 07:15:35 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar. I will probably change my tune in a week when I get shoulder surgery. I will be forced to be somewhat inactive for a bit, lowering my overall calorie limit and giving me less "discretionary" calories. Until then, I will eat all the things and then go jump on a cardio machine and binge watch something on my phone.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 11, 2019, 08:05:15 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar.

I'm curious as to why you're in denial that it's evil? Is it simply because you're able to eat sugar and still lose weight?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 11, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
Oh yeah, meant to add to that last post I am still in denial about the evils of sugar.

I'm curious as to why you're in denial that it's evil? Is it simply because you're able to eat sugar and still lose weight?
Pretty much, but also because the reason I do eat them is that is that I really like a lot of the sugary treats. One common reason people fail to keep weight off is denying themselves food they really like during weight loss and then allowing them again, so I got used to rationing so it has been easier to maintain. I probably just need to slowly drop the rationed amount. I have still been logging everything every day even though I have been in maintenance ten and a half months. If I continue to do that, and because of past failures I think I have to, it should be easier to slowly cut back. Kind of sucks to keep logging everything, but I have accepted that I cannot eat intuitively and stay at a healthy weight.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Stew on January 16, 2019, 02:00:08 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 16, 2019, 04:46:18 PM
i am mostly vegan, eat some fish, and mostly successfully avoid added sugar--when i moved diet this way, i dropped from 208 to 185 without thinking about it--i stabilized there and eat as much as i want and remain stable at light fighting weight--nothing to tweak, nothing to cut back etc

if you can stomach what my wife calls "rabbit food", give this a shot

now i do "cheat" occasionally, but i dont sweat it--my intake of crap is pretty damned tiny, certainly when compared to many

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 16, 2019, 05:00:55 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 16, 2019, 06:00:55 PM
i am mostly vegan, eat some fish, and mostly successfully avoid added sugar--when i moved diet this way, i dropped from 208 to 185 without thinking about it--i stabilized there and eat as much as i want and remain stable at light fighting weight--nothing to tweak, nothing to cut back etc

if you can stomach what my wife calls "rabbit food", give this a shot

now i do "cheat" occasionally, but i dont sweat it--my intake of crap is pretty damned tiny, certainly when compared to many

I am one of the many; my intake of sugar is pretty high. If sugar is the devil, I live in hell. I just count calories I eat and burn and make sure the math works. I do eat less volume than a lot of people and it is more work to track carefully, but I dropped from the low 220s to the low 150s over the span of ~9 months. I am 5'8", so that's going from a BMI of 34 to below 24. I am eating in a way I have no trouble sustaining. I don't feel like I am dieting, largely because I don't make certain foods off limits. I just watch portions and sometimes step up burn to compensate for an overage. Weaning off sugar does seem like a diet and is harder for me to do than losing the weight while eating a lot of sugar was. I do think I need to cut back, the more I look into this.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Stew on January 16, 2019, 10:43:55 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 16, 2019, 11:29:49 PM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

This is a great anecdote and everyone should think on it. The word 'diet' is the wrong one to use in my view. Go down that road and its never going to be fun.

I just got back the states and was shocked over the use and volume of corn syrup in their products. That's just awful and its no wonder they are the fattest nation on earth.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 17, 2019, 12:06:05 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 17, 2019, 01:26:23 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.

Pretty sensible approach in my view. My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible. If you avoid processed stuff, you can't go far wrong. I also have the 'water rule'. If I feel hungry, drink some water first (as hunger is often thirst in disguise).

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 17, 2019, 03:24:24 AM
snacks?

easy -- fruit nuts and seeds -- eat as much as you want -- all day!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 17, 2019, 05:03:17 AM
My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible.

Small meals make me angry.  They never satisfy, make me think of food all day and keep me slow.  Something small with coffee in the AM and one big meal does it for me.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 05:08:09 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

What are you using as snacks? Thats my challenge! Or do you find that you don't need them once you've pushed past a certain point of weaning off the sugars?
Yes, without the carbs, I just donít get the same level of cravings for snacks - or any food, really. But if I do have a snack, I have nuts, or some cheese, or a modest amount of high fat Greek yoghurt, or a bowl of berries (strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries etc) with lashing of double cream!

But I start the day with a 3-egg cheese omelette and quite often find that at the end of the day Iíve forgotten to have lunch, but havenít really noticed.

As I say, everyone is different so VMMV. But for me, carbs make me crave more carbs, and that is about all the good they do. Iím even producing PBs with my paddling on the low-carb diet. I was worried that low carbs would mean that I felt a lack of energy when out paddling. But after a couple of weeks of adjustment, now Iím finding I actually can paddle longer and harder (up to about 1.5 hrs) than back when I was carb-loading and carrying a Camelbak full of sugary goop.

Basically, for me at least, pretty much everything I had read about, and thought was true about how I should be eating in order to stay active and maintain a sensible weight as a middle-aged man, has turned out to be not true.

Gotta keep the fibre up though if you drop the carbs, IMO. So get used to large plates of vegetables and salad. You can eat pretty much as much of that as you like though, and put butter on them.

I find that around 50g of carbs a day is about right for me. Itís not a disaster to go 75. Below 50 takes an effort to organise. Above 75 and I start feeling hungry again, put on weight, have sleepiness after meals, generally feel less sharp, and paddle slower.

Using the defaults from my tracking app, my goal is over 200g of carbs. I might try changing up the mix and adding more fat. I did eat full fat Greek yogurt a lot while losing. I add PB2 to yogurt a lot and sometimes unsweetened applesauce. If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs. I am going to give lowering sugar substantially a try. I have shoulder surgery tomorrow. No breakfast, not sure I will feel like having lunch, but the pain med I will be taking might require something. I am going to use Sprix, this crazy strong NSAID that you take as a nasal mist but still affects your stomach somehow. I had some issues with opioids and alcohol after previous surgeries. Day 571 fixing that. But step one will still be a lot of carbs, just ones with little sugar like bananas and bread. I have a stash of sweets at the office that is running low and I just won't restock it. I am still going to have the odd one here and there and see how it goes.

Reading some links from this thread and doing more research is changing my mind about sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 17, 2019, 08:45:56 AM
Good work chaps!

I've known for some time (years!) that sugar is the big cause of weight gain but have repeatedly struggled with suitable substitutions in my daily diet.

I'm not super fat but have chub and would like to trim it down. No food leaves me feeling full for very long and I like to eat. Regular grazing is hard to avoid and when I've tried to exclude that grazing, I've just found myself really really thinking about needing food!

Any tips?
Everyone has to find the right thing for them. But in my case it is a Keto-type diet, with low carbs (and definitely no sugar), and plenty of fibre, fat and protein. The fat keeps me full, and I have lost about 14lbs without even trying. For me, carbs make me hungry: All carbs seem to do is feed my hunger! Protein, fibre and fat all seem to stabilise my blood sugar, and without that see-sawing, I donít get as hungry. So, for me, itís a diet without dieting. Itís strange at first to be avoiding all bread, beer, potatoes, rice, pasta etc (and of course no sweets, cakes, or candy etc), but you soon get used to it. Now I use cream by the bucketload and lose weight! Itís strange to actually be looking for high fat foods after decades of being told it will make me fat. But actually it seems to help me lose weight, not gain it. We certainly have been totally lied to all these years, by the sugar lobby. In time we will probably come to see the sugar industry as as evil as the tobacco one. It has led to a lot of deaths and disability IMO.

This. I've been eating this way for 6 months and it's a breeze now. I've been traveling for the past week for business and it's sustainable even living out of hotel rooms. If you happen to be near In-N-Out, order a Flying Dutchman, mustard-fried!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 17, 2019, 08:49:01 AM

If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs.


This is a common misconception that has been disproven. Not that everything you read online is fact but here's an article that lays it out well:

https://perfectketo.com/how-too-much-protein-is-bad-for-ketosis/
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 09:22:17 AM

If you add more protein, you just break down the excess into carbs.


This is a common misconception that has been disproven. Not that everything you read online is fact but here's an article that lays it out well:

https://perfectketo.com/how-too-much-protein-is-bad-for-ketosis/

That is written by a sports chiropractor. Hereis an article I read:

https://www.popsci.com/not-in-ketosis

Where the claim about proteins breaking down into carbs is made by a dietitian. Just because she is board certified after a substantial amount of education at an accredited college or university on food science doesn't mean she is more knowledgeable about this than a chiropractor, but I think it is pretty likely.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 10:52:40 AM
An interesting article on a new suggested diet that is better for us and the planet:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/16/health/new-diet-to-save-lives-and-planet-health-study-intl/index.html

One of the reasons I don't eat beef or pork is because of the impact it has. It isn't a possible food source for everyone because it would utilize too many resources.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2019, 01:58:13 PM
I enjoy these discussions for many reasons, one is I'm fat and I'd like to not be. Another is the very strange fact that while much of the world deals with an unbalanced diet because they can't afford better, the number of people who die from improper food or starvation is much smaller than the number who die as a direct result of obesity, and the amount of money spent just in the USA on diets to lose weight would be more than enough famine and diet-imbalanced caused deaths worldwide. Of course there's no useful way to change that, I just appreciate the irony.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: PonoBill on January 17, 2019, 01:59:29 PM
My approach was merely to aim to eat as natural and unprocessed as I could at as many meals as possible.

Small meals make me angry.  They never satisfy, make me think of food all day and keep me slow.  Something small with coffee in the AM and one big meal does it for me.

I'm trying to imagine what you mean by small meals. I can't begin to reconcile the meals I've watched you eat with the theoretical idea of "small".
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 17, 2019, 05:36:41 PM
I enjoy these discussions for many reasons, one is I'm fat and I'd like to not be. Another is the very strange fact that while much of the world deals with an unbalanced diet because they can't afford better, the number of people who die from improper food or starvation is much smaller than the number who die as a direct result of obesity, and the amount of money spent just in the USA on diets to lose weight would be more than enough famine and diet-imbalanced caused deaths worldwide. Of course there's no useful way to change that, I just appreciate the irony.
Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned. Most money spent on weight loss is totally wasted. Losing weight should save money on groceries. That's how it worked for me this time and Have kept my BMI under 25 for almost 11 months so far. This is far and away the most success I have had in decades. The lowest goal weight and the longest at or below goal. It actually hasn't been that hard.

Eating to be healthy at your weight is another matter. I am about to give this reduced sugar idea a try. Going a little crazy today and starting tomorrow after my shoulder surgery. Cut out the sugary snacks and start getting thigh meat instead of skinless breasts. I work best with going cold turkey - line in the sand. It's 8:30 here and I can't eat past midnight, so it's about to begin.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on January 18, 2019, 12:27:25 AM

Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned.

I don't believe this (at least, not in the UK). Eating fresh (if you want the variety you need or fancy organic) requires considerably more cost than crap ready meals and dodgy pizza's. That's part of the reason why we have an obesity crisis - cost and convenience.

Also, I've recently returned from my usual holiday in the states and I was struck (still) by how badly stocked several supermarkets are out there in comparison to our own here (although I did see an increase in gluten free and organic produce from previous years).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:44:07 AM

Another bit of irony from studies is that the most successful diets, as far as losing weight and keeping it off, are the cheapest - no special foods, no meal replacement shakes/bars (at least not regularly), no restrictive menus, etc; just proper portions and balancing calories consumed with calories burned.

I don't believe this (at least, not in the UK). Eating fresh (if you want the variety you need or fancy organic) requires considerably more cost than crap ready meals and dodgy pizza's. That's part of the reason why we have an obesity crisis - cost and convenience.

Also, I've recently returned from my usual holiday in the states and I was struck (still) by how badly stocked several supermarkets are out there in comparison to our own here (although I did see an increase in gluten free and organic produce from previous years).
Yes, I agree. In Europe it is expensive to eat well, and takes a lot of time and effort to source the best foodstuffs. There is a whole fast food industry that is determined to make us fat, give us diabetes, and kill us young. They are very good at what they do: getting cheap food lacking in biological value, into your hands. The poorer you are, the more successful they are in doing that.

There is also a strong cultural element. I remember a French colleague of mine being totally baffled by a sign we were looking at in London that said ďAll you can eat for [price]Ē. She asked why we donít buy the BEST food we can get for our money, not the MOST. Itís a good question.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on January 18, 2019, 05:10:34 AM
I'm trying to imagine what you mean by small meals. I can't begin to reconcile the meals I've watched you eat with the theoretical idea of "small".

Hah!  I don't eat small meals.  Meals and snacking slow me down and I hate that feeling.  I go for one big meal a day.  That way I stay energized, and I am hungry by feed time.  The notion that a little hunger will kill you is a big problem.  A lot of people's whole day is consumed by eating.  When we have visitors I feel like one meal ends just as the next is starting...and then the snacks.  That seems crazy to me (but I am sure they think the same of my way :) ).  I like eating to satisfaction when I eat.  It is really hard to overdo it in a single meal.

PS:  And now I am going to go Facebook on you.  I just made a few loaves of overstuffed bread that turned out sensational.

Carmelized  Onion, Kalamata, Asiago, dusted with Cornmeal
Jalapeno, Red Pepper, Manchego

MMMmm!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 11:47:24 AM
typing one handed today, not quoting doubters about saving money or capitalizing...

note my post was in 2 parts. the saving money part was about losing weight without buying specialty weight loss products or highly restrictive menus. mostly same food only less of it costs less money.

on the second part, it kind of depends on what standards you use for healthy food. i get big bags of individually frozen raw skinless chicken filets, frozen shrimp in bulk when on sale and while i really like mahi and grouper, i also enjoy haddock and even whiting and croaker. store brand yogurt, cheese, eggs, rice, dry beans, etc. my fresh produce doesn't usually come from the organic section and i am okay with cheap bagged salads like marketside. i eat grain products with gluten. i save a lot of money making my own meals compared to fast food.

i did have my facts sort of wrong in my post. 55% of those who lost weight and kept it off did it with "the help of some kind of program".
http://www.nwcr.ws/Research/default.htm

i say sort of wrong because using a calorie goal and tracking what you eat (i use myfitnesspal) is considered a kind of program even though i have no restriction past calorie total and a suggested macro ratio i can change. eating a keto diet or following any sort of guideline is considered a program.

on the subject of eating healthy, if you insist on free range eggs, organic meat/produce and avoid virtually all additives, it is more expensive.

edit to add - in 6 weeks i will qualify to add my data to the national weight loss registry. it will be 1 year with my bmi below 25, which was my goal. currently it is 23.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 02:23:43 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 18, 2019, 03:48:23 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.

i just looked up the protein bars - pure protein brand - and the 50g bars i have each have 20g whey protein and claim only 2-3g sugar. look close at ingredients - 8g "sugar alcohol". wtf? read their warnings on them. ok, these are going away.

(https://www.pureprotein.com/-/media/pureprotein/product-catalog/products/chocolate-peanut-butter-bar/peanut-butter-50g.jpg)

dessert exemption will be very rare and i night get rid of it. i just don't want to start cravings by deciding "never ever". i play a lot of mind games with myself.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on January 18, 2019, 06:30:59 PM
Yeah, most of these ďprotein barsĒ and other convenience ďsportsĒ stuff is just crap your body can do without. Theyíll make you feel worse, not better. If you need a snack on the go, buy a bag of unsalted nuts, drink a load of water, and maybe have a coffee with plenty of cream (no milk), if you can tolerate caffeine. Most raw fruit in moderate amounts is OKish too, and any amounts of vegetables you can eat. Try e.g. raw carrot or celery with hummus, or munch away on a tomato. Basically, try to avoid nearly all of the stuff that advertising is trying to get you to eat. They want to make you fat and depressed. Give them the traditional salute youíd give anyone who wants to ruin your life while filling their pockets with your money.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 18, 2019, 09:08:48 PM
decided to go very low sugar during shoulder rehab and see how i feel about it in 3 months. no candy snacks. one serving of an offered home made dessert will be an exemption, as will finishing off some protein bars as occasional in a rush going to gym in the morning or forgot my lunch meal substitute. no canned fruit, or just about anything else pre sweetened
Ditch the dessert and the protein bars. You think you need them. But you donít. Theyíll just make you want more desserts and protein bars, thatís all.

i just looked up the protein bars - pure protein brand - and the 50g bars i have each have 20g whey protein and claim only 2-3g sugar. look close at ingredients - 8g "sugar alcohol". wtf? read their warnings on them. ok, these are going away.

(https://www.pureprotein.com/-/media/pureprotein/product-catalog/products/chocolate-peanut-butter-bar/peanut-butter-50g.jpg)

dessert exemption will be very rare and i night get rid of it. i just don't want to start cravings by deciding "never ever". i play a lot of mind games with myself.
Sugar's noddy cousin. Sugar Alcohol. 
https://www.joslin.org/info/what_are_sugar_alcohols.html
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on January 19, 2019, 04:41:13 AM
sugar alcohols are considered to be a potential factor for some with ibs

see fodmaps diet

fortunately my daughter's ibs (or whatever ailed her) disappeared when she went vegan.....and ceased with awful eating habits she had as a HS kid---her "ibs" had me very anxious--so relieved it's over

at one point i was trying to get her to try the "FODMAPS" diet, which seeks to eliminate sugar alcohols

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 19, 2019, 06:31:10 AM
In fairness, you should read this article on the study through or at least go to the end and back up 5 paragraphs:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/sugar-keeps-good-microbes-at-bay/

The gut microbe it is suppressing in mice is found in normal quantities in the general population (of people). There are a few other caveats about applying the study to people, but that's the big one.  But if it does odd things to protein production in rats, that's a concern even if we don't seem to have the same outcome wth regards to the particular gut bacteria.

I am still doing the low sugar approach. Last night, for the first time in a while, I was looking around for a snack to get my calories up to 1500, which is considered minimum healthy amount for an adult male on a sedentary day. Averaging across days is fine so ending up a little short, which I did, is okay.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Quickbeam on January 29, 2019, 12:05:51 PM
It was one month ago yesterday that I cut back on my sugar intake. The only real difference Iíve noted is that Iím now having a difficult time keeping weight on.

Iíve always had a pretty major sweet tooth. A normal day for me would be to have at least one medium size chocolate bar during the day and two large chocolate chip cookies after dinner. There would also usually be some kind of snack in the evening. And of course never thinking about the sugar content of fruit, I would start the day by having at least one banana as part of my breakfast. So for the last month Iíve cut all this out. I still snack in the evening, but itís usually popcorn, or nuts or something else with not a lot of sugar.

So when I was eating all the sugar, I had to watch my weight very carefully. Iím not a big guy. I normally weigh in around 150 pounds. It took a lot of effort to keep my weight from going above 150 pounds when I was eating all the sugar. I had to control my meal portions and would also fast occasionally.

Now, without the sugar, it takes a lot of effort to keep my weight from falling to far below 150 pounds. Where I used to take a small portion at dinner, Iíll now have two helpings.

It has been quite an eye opener to see just how much weight I was adding with the sugar I was eating. I should also clarify that during this past month Iíve had a pretty major cold so really havenít been very active. Not sure how that figures into everything, other than I suspect when I do finally get over this cold, it is going to be even more difficult to keep weight on.

One final note. The only thing I can say I miss is having my sugar fix after dinner. Used to really enjoy those chocolate chip cookies!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on January 29, 2019, 01:00:29 PM
So it's been just over a month since I decided to try and eliminate alcohol. I still put a small amount of Barnett's Lime Vodka on top of my evening bloody mary...but I have even cut back on those too. Have been using non-alcohol beer like Beck's to satisfy my desire for something quenching my thirst after workouts. I don't drink much beer,  but I see this as a lower sugar alternative to my favorite Grapefruit juice coctail...again,  with a few drops of lime vodka.
I am not missing the alcohol and I honestly think I am sleeping better and overall just feel better. I am drinking a lot more green tea and black coffee and I am peeing a lot more :).....I am slowly loosing some weight,  but I think I have found my balance and won't go much lower.
One more thing,  I have started eating more celery (either with a dab of peanut butter or with hummus. This keeps me from feeling hungry and it works well for me.
So,  having just turned 68,  I am feeling pretty good and still paddle as often as possible. (did 4 1/5 miles on my birthday in 45 degree temps....so I am not letting the cold air stop me. Hard to get motivated though when it is that cold......falling in is NOT an option).  More protein and more liquids.....and keeping the sugar intake to the minimum...that's my goal this year.
SUGAR is the enemy!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 29, 2019, 02:36:17 PM
I eliminated alcohol 583 days ago and I think it has helped a lot my general health. I was almost 70 pounds heavier at the time. It wasn't just giving up alcohol. I also got smarter about what and how much I ate and got more active, including paddling which I had taken a break from. I switched from kayak to SUP and caught fire with it; this is the most I have enjoyed a hobby in a long time.

I was concerned about turning 60 overweight, out of shape and drinking too much. I didn't.

I have cut back on sugar recently, but don't really want to give it up completely. The study that started the discussion showed end result of the sugar in mice was a reduction in a particular beneficial gut bacteria. Despite people eating a lot of sugar, low levels of the gut bacteria is rare. I do get most my sugar from fruit and veggies; I reduced the sweet treats. I felt great before, so it's not surprising that there hasn't been any noticeable improvement.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 30, 2019, 08:27:23 AM
So I started this December 21st, 2018. I survived Christmas with only one dessert. My sisters vegan dinner helped and was great BTW. Here I am now just about one month later.
I was 245 lbs.

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 30, 2019, 09:17:35 AM
So I started this December 21st, 2018. I survived Christmas with only one dessert. My sisters vegan dinner helped and was great BTW. Here I am now just about one month later.
I was 245 lbs.

Congratulations! That's moving along at a pretty good clip. It takes a 3500 calorie deficit to lose 1 pound of fat, so if it was all fat loss that would be a deficit of 31,500 calories for the month, meaning on average you burned 1,000 calories more than you consumed each day. It's probably actually a little less than that as it is inevitable that we lose a little bit of lean body mass also, which provides fewer calories per pound. It is a heck of a lot easier to feel full eating low calorie fiber, protein and fat than it is eating sugar.

This professor did an interesting experiment to prove it is all about calorie consumption, eating almost nothing but junk food and losing 27 pounds in 2 months:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
What is really interesting is how much better his cholesterol counts got from losing the weight. His triglyceride level dropped dramatically. All while eating a diet that was 2/3 sweet snacks.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 30, 2019, 10:43:42 AM
Thanks RideTG. I haven't had a cookie or donut in a month. Not sweetened drinks other that a splash of OJ on the rocks with water. My go to snack is Quaker Oats salted puffed rice cakes with a light spread peanut butter. My daughter calls it my sad food. Also an apple and other fruit. Maybe two a day. As per KayaDoggs suggestion, I bought Lily's brand dark chocolate and almond bars with Stevia sweetener. I crack off a few here and there as a rare treat. I was adding Stevia to my coffee, but I started tasting it in my mouth all day. Now I don't add anything to my coffee. I buy darker coffee blends now to. So many different bean flavors that had forgotten about.
I eat my same lunch and dinners. Breakfast, just banana, OJ, coffee, sometimes a sad rice disk with PB. I stand at my desk instead of sitting every day now. It's easier because my knees and feet don't hurt anymore.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 30, 2019, 11:33:10 AM
I have always been a black coffee drinker. Sometimes a skinny latte but that's rare. I also don't care for stevia. I drink a lot of water and not much else, which eliminates what is a big source of calories for a lot of people. I eat mostly lean protein. I end up with a lot of "discretionary calories". I don't want to lose much more weight, so I have to eat them. that's when I make questionable choices.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on January 30, 2019, 12:48:29 PM
TallDude, congrats! Keep it up. If you're up for another suggestion and want to feel pretty full just by having some coffee, add some MCT oil and a tablespoon of butter (real butter not the fake crap). Use a milk frother or small blender for the best result. Tastes delicious and will be about 250-300 calories of fat and will keep you very full. I mostly drink black coffee but go to this "bulletproof" type coffee now and then. Just be careful with the MCT oil. You'll find yourself in the bathroom if you overdo it. Work up to a tablespoon as you get used to it.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on January 30, 2019, 01:33:37 PM
TallDude, congrats! Keep it up. If you're up for another suggestion and want to feel pretty full just by having some coffee, add some MCT oil and a tablespoon of butter (real butter not the fake crap). Use a milk frother or small blender for the best result. Tastes delicious and will be about 250-300 calories of fat and will keep you very full. I mostly drink black coffee but go to this "bulletproof" type coffee now and then. Just be careful with the MCT oil. You'll find yourself in the bathroom if you overdo it. Work up to a tablespoon as you get used to it.
I do steamed almond milk at SB now an then. They use sweetened almond milk, so there is a little sugar in it, but it's about the equivalent of sugar I get having ketchup on a burger. I'm lactose intolerant so I can't do the real butter or milk additives. Being LI I read a lot of labels, so now I'm looking at the sugar content in everything as well. BTW, those Lily's chocolate bars are sooo good:) Thanks! It's my only real dessert in very small bites. Hanohano was really fun this year. We did whisky shots and Modello's in the parking lot after the race. I did pretty good in the race. About the same as last time I did the race. I really wanted to win that OC-1!   
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: sflinux on February 05, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
For those that are interested on learning why sugar is bad for our bodies, this is a a great video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
The sequel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceFyF9px20Y
Basically, processed fructose is bad for us, because only the liver can metabolize it.  Consuming a 12 oz soda each day can lead to 15# of weight gain each year.  This easiest diet is minimizing sugar in your diet, prohibiting sugar sweetened (and artificial sweeteners) beverages. Much like alcohol, excess causes adverse effects.  Fruit is ok as long it is a whole food. (blender = good, juicer = bad).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 06, 2019, 11:57:40 PM
This professor did an interesting experiment to prove it is all about calorie consumption, eating almost nothing but junk food and losing 27 pounds in 2 months:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html
What is really interesting is how much better his cholesterol counts got from losing the weight. His triglyceride level dropped dramatically. All while eating a diet that was 2/3 sweet snacks.

I think this kind of anecdote is misleading at best and sends out a disastrous message to those who need fundamental lifestyle changes. If you want to run a ferrari, you don't putting crap fuel in it.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 07, 2019, 09:13:46 AM
It's been a month and a half now on my new Low Sugar eating habit. This past week has been raining a lot, so I haven't been able to paddle. My workout is just morning walks. I've committed to standing at my desk and utilizing my powered desk lift. Wearing my running shoes while I stand at my desk helps my feet and back (hardwood floor) not get sore. I'll stand all day, and sit at my desk if I work in the evenings. I haven't had ice cream, frozen yogurt, cookies, cake and NO DONUTS :'(  since I started this new eating habit. I did have an almond croissant yesterday, which tasted crazy sweet to me. I remember them being kinda bland compared to donuts. I don't eat breakfast, as I've said before, other than a banana and a small glass of OJ. I drink decaf black coffee, probably 4 cups a day and lots of water. No sodas or sweat teas or lemonades, just water. I eat a lot of fish, but I always have. I eat a lot of taco's, but I always have. No real change in my lunches or dinners, and no calorie counting at all.
Still getting thinner, and my knee pains have almost disappeared. They used to pop going up and down stairs, now they are quiet.
 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 07, 2019, 09:57:21 AM
My new snack routine is one or two a day salted rice cakes (sad food) with a spread of peanut butter on them. It's filling with just enough salty sweet to kill the craving. I'll have one piece of fruit in the afternoon as well.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 07, 2019, 10:04:26 AM
I cut back, but still have some high sugar days. Exercise is largely cardio on machine at the gym, binge watching Hulu or Netflix. Staying thin, but I do log all my calories and weigh often. At the end of this month, it will be a year of maintaining at a BMI below 25. My BMI stayed in the 30-34 range most of the time for several years before that. The few times it was below 30 were diets when I would get down to 27 at the lowest and never stayed that weight for more than a couple of months. I have been logging everything I eat nearly every day for ~20 months. On low sugar days, I often find myself  looking for something to eat before bed so I get enough calories; I really don't want to lose much more. So if I can wean off sugar and stick to that more of the time, I may be able to do like you and not eat too much if I don't track.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 07, 2019, 10:34:19 AM
I've never checked my BMI till now. I'm at 26.29. I guess that means I still have to lose weight. I knew that....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ninja tuna on February 07, 2019, 11:54:25 AM
RTG,

if I may ask, after reading a lot of what you have done, congrats on losing the weight, but why are you hung up on bmi?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 07, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
My new snack routine is one or two a day salted rice cakes (sad food) with a spread of peanut butter on them. It's filling with just enough salty sweet to kill the craving. I'll have one piece of fruit in the afternoon as well.

Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 07, 2019, 12:42:05 PM
My new snack routine is one or two a day salted rice cakes (sad food) with a spread of peanut butter on them. It's filling with just enough salty sweet to kill the craving. I'll have one piece of fruit in the afternoon as well.

Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)
Oh I know.... I spread it thin. The peanut butter is 2 table spoons / serving (190 cal). I approximate half a serving (95) on my (30 cal) sad cakes. It's my 125 cal snack, but who's counting? A small Kirkland snack pack of peanuts is 260 cal.  The sad cakes are more filling to me compared to a snack pack of nuts. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 07, 2019, 12:45:36 PM
RTG,

if I may ask, after reading a lot of what you have done, congrats on losing the weight, but why are you hung up on bmi?
Because I cannot rationalize it to be something else; I have a normal sized frame and I am not an elite athlete so it is pretty accurate for me. I can step on the scale and know what it is. A better measure is BF%. I am probably around 15%, which would be a good goal even though it is low for my age, but I don't know for sure what my BF% is. I had a problem with rationalizing over the years, deciding that 180-185 was a good weight for me. I didn't want to be able to rationalize this time, so I picked a measure that is set in stone and I believe is accurate for me. 164 is 24.9 for me and I made a firm commitment to never go over again. I kept losing down into the mid 150s, which is what I am now. I bump up my daily calorie goal when I get close to 150 and bump it down if I am edging up toward 160. I have used the "how I feel, how satisfied I am with my appearance" method in the past and always got heavier again when I lost weight and event my lowest weights were not all that healthy.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on February 07, 2019, 12:47:53 PM
I've never checked my BMI till now. I'm at 26.29. I guess that means I still have to lose weight. I knew that....
I'd ignore BMI.  It's skewed against men, tall people and fit people with muscle.  Try a few comparisons.  For me at 6'-1", the BMI says I'd be normal at 140 or more, and overweight at 190.  At 6'-7, 164 is normal, 222 is overweight--even more dumb for an adult male. 


Going the other way, a 5'-1" woman is normal at 98 or more (pretty realistic) and not overweight until 135.  A 135 pound woman at 5'-1" is a lot less skinny than a 222 pound. 6'-7" man.


You can say, well, the BMI's ranges include everyone, so of course the idea that, for instance, the "healthy" range for a given height doesn't mean the low end of healthy is appropriate for a muscular man, just as the high end of "healthy" isn't appropriate for a slightly built young woman.  But even then, it's skewed against taller people, and once you DO factor in type of build and amount of muscle, it becomes almost meaningless (and it never was meant to be used as anything other than a very rough estimation tool).


I've read that 100% of NFL players are above "healthy", and the vast majority of NBA players.  I'd guess the majority of fit adult men fall in the higher end of healthy and well up into "overweight".  It could be interesting to try a poll here--have people list their BMI, and say whether their score realistically describes their weight level.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 07, 2019, 01:00:26 PM
My new snack routine is one or two a day salted rice cakes (sad food) with a spread of peanut butter on them. It's filling with just enough salty sweet to kill the craving. I'll have one piece of fruit in the afternoon as well.

Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)
I eat nuts for the same reason I eat more sugar than I probably should - I like nuts, especially pecans. I do eat them sparingly, weighing out 14g for a ~100 calorie snack, unless I have drifted down to a little lower weight than I like. I really don't care for rice cakes. I would rather get used to eating less volume of foods I like than eating a lot of foods I don't care for.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 07, 2019, 01:19:28 PM
I've never checked my BMI till now. I'm at 26.29. I guess that means I still have to lose weight. I knew that....
I'd ignore BMI.  It's skewed against men, tall people and fit people with muscle.  Try a few comparisons.  For me at 6'-1", the BMI says I'd be normal at 140 or more, and overweight at 190.  At 6'-7, 164 is normal, 222 is overweight--even more dumb for an adult male. 


Going the other way, a 5'-1" woman is normal at 98 or more (pretty realistic) and not overweight until 135.  A 135 pound woman at 5'-1" is a lot less skinny than a 222 pound. 6'-7" man.


You can say, well, the BMI's ranges include everyone, so of course the idea that, for instance, the "healthy" range for a given height doesn't mean the low end of healthy is appropriate for a muscular man, just as the high end of "healthy" isn't appropriate for a slightly built young woman.  But even then, it's skewed against taller people, and once you DO factor in type of build and amount of muscle, it becomes almost meaningless (and it never was meant to be used as anything other than a very rough estimation tool).


I've read that 100% of NFL players are above "healthy", and the vast majority of NBA players.  I'd guess the majority of fit adult men fall in the higher end of healthy and well up into "overweight".  It could be interesting to try a poll here--have people list their BMI, and say whether their score realistically describes their weight level.

My BMI is 23.6 now. I am a 5'8" 60 year old man and I think I am fit and trim now. Muscular, but not bulked up. Visible abs but not a 6 pack. If I lost 10 pounds, down to 145, I think I would still look okay. That would be 22. Below that, I think I would like kind of scrawny. I don't think the whole BMI range is valid for anyone, but I think the healthy range for most people is within the normal BMI range or maybe mostly overlaps at the high end. If you work out a lot and build up your chest and shoulders, I think you can be a little over and still be healthy. This forum is not a cross section of the population.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 07, 2019, 01:52:29 PM
My new snack routine is one or two a day salted rice cakes (sad food) with a spread of peanut butter on them. It's filling with just enough salty sweet to kill the craving. I'll have one piece of fruit in the afternoon as well.

Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)
I eat nuts for the same reason I eat more sugar than I probably should - I like nuts, especially pecans. I do eat them sparingly, weighing out 14g for a ~100 calorie snack, unless I have drifted down to a little lower weight than I like. I really don't care for rice cakes. I would rather get used to eating less volume of foods I like than eating a lot of foods I don't care for.

I get it.  All the same, a cup of Ben and Jerry's Triple Caramel Chunk has 560 calories in a cup so if you have a cup of nuts on the regular schedule you can switch to the ice cream and call it a diet :).

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on February 08, 2019, 04:57:55 AM
Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)

Calories are not the only thing to consider. Carbs and glucose play a huge role in weight gain. I eat 33g of salted macadamia nuts every day. I do weigh them out and I know itís easy to overeat nuts but one serving of Mac nuts will keep me much more satiated than a high carb food. Not trying to go down the whole calories in/calories out thing because I strongly disagree with that mindset but itís much more about the macronutrient breakdown than the straight calorie count.

And Matt, keep up the great work! The other day I surfed a 7í4x25Ē 72L stand up board wearing full rubber. I owe it all to eating nuts  ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 08, 2019, 07:25:43 AM
Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)

Calories are not the only thing to consider. Carbs and glucose play a huge role in weight gain. I eat 33g of salted macadamia nuts every day. I do weigh them out and I know it’s easy to overeat nuts but one serving of Mac nuts will keep me much more satiated than a high carb food. Not trying to go down the whole calories in/calories out thing because I strongly disagree with that mindset but it’s much more about the macronutrient breakdown than the straight calorie count.

And Matt, keep up the great work! The other day I surfed a 7’4x25” 72L stand up board wearing full rubber. I owe it all to eating nuts  ;D

I think what you are getting at is there is a difference between eating solely to lose or gain weight and eating to be healthy and that it's best to do both. If your only consideration is weight, then calories in/calories out (CICO) is absolutely valid - it's physics; doing x amount of work requires y amount of energy. But if you eat stuff that makes you feel like crap, then you end up doing less and x is a smaller number.

Another problem with CICO is that neither number CI or CO that you come up with is not going to be absolutely correct. I weigh everything I can, but sometimes that isn't practical. I eat something that someone brought in at work or at a restaurant and I have to pick something that seems about right from the list when I record it. When I go to the gym, I don't believe the fantasy numbers the cardio machines give me for burn and I log something lower but it's an estimate. I don't really know how much I burn as a base number to add the additional exercise to. The idea that the inaccuracies will cancel each other out is flawed; most people have a tendency to underestimate CI and overestimate CO. l know this and tend to be too conservative and go the other way. I keep dropping to the bottom of my range and have to up calories until I get to the middle, try to keep it even and start dropping again. When I didn't weigh and track as often as I could, I went the other way and gained a lot of weight.

The issue of satiety is important also. If the nuts keep you from feeling hungry and you eat fewer calories over time it doesn't matter if they are calorie dense. A lot of people can't stick to healthy eating because they have some non filling calorie dense foods they eat regularly. They are too hungry if they cut those calories out of the rest of the day.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on February 08, 2019, 02:53:16 PM
I've never checked my BMI till now. I'm at 26.29. I guess that means I still have to lose weight. I knew that....
I'd ignore BMI.  It's skewed against men, tall people and fit people with muscle.  Try a few comparisons.  For me at 6'-1", the BMI says I'd be normal at 140 or more, and overweight at 190.  At 6'-7, 164 is normal, 222 is overweight--even more dumb for an adult male. 


Going the other way, a 5'-1" woman is normal at 98 or more (pretty realistic) and not overweight until 135.  A 135 pound woman at 5'-1" is a lot less skinny than a 222 pound. 6'-7" man.


You can say, well, the BMI's ranges include everyone, so of course the idea that, for instance, the "healthy" range for a given height doesn't mean the low end of healthy is appropriate for a muscular man, just as the high end of "healthy" isn't appropriate for a slightly built young woman.  But even then, it's skewed against taller people, and once you DO factor in type of build and amount of muscle, it becomes almost meaningless (and it never was meant to be used as anything other than a very rough estimation tool).


I've read that 100% of NFL players are above "healthy", and the vast majority of NBA players.  I'd guess the majority of fit adult men fall in the higher end of healthy and well up into "overweight".  It could be interesting to try a poll here--have people list their BMI, and say whether their score realistically describes their weight level.

My BMI is 23.6 now. I am a 5'8" 60 year old man and I think I am fit and trim now. Muscular, but not bulked up. Visible abs but not a 6 pack. If I lost 10 pounds, down to 145, I think I would still look okay. That would be 22. Below that, I think I would like kind of scrawny. I don't think the whole BMI range is valid for anyone, but I think the healthy range for most people is within the normal BMI range or maybe mostly overlaps at the high end. If you work out a lot and build up your chest and shoulders, I think you can be a little over and still be healthy. This forum is not a cross section of the population.
Yes, that fits with my main point, that "fit adult men" will be in the upper end of "normal" and well into "overweight", and people here ARE fitter and muscular than most of the population.  I think you're also right that the whole range won't be valid for any one person, the idea being that a large-boned muscular man wouldn't be expected to be at the low end of the range, and a light-boned woman might be heavier than ideal even if still in the "normal" range. 


Then there's still height, which certainly factors in for people like TallDude.  I recall him being 6'-7", so if he matched your BMI, he'd weigh only 209, which at least to me would a lot skinnier than being 155 at 5'-8". 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 09, 2019, 03:49:20 AM
Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)

Calories are not the only thing to consider. Carbs and glucose play a huge role in weight gain. I eat 33g of salted macadamia nuts every day. I do weigh them out and I know itís easy to overeat nuts but one serving of Mac nuts will keep me much more satiated than a high carb food. Not trying to go down the whole calories in/calories out thing because I strongly disagree with that mindset but itís much more about the macronutrient breakdown than the straight calorie count.

Hi Kaya,

A cup of Macadamia nuts is 962 calories.  Almost twice the highest calorie Ben and Jerry's in the same portion.  They are the highest calorie nuts with the most fat and the least protein.  I found this out after happily downing a pound of them on my porch in Maui.  I was new to the island and was really feeling my Aloha spirit.  Had a couple of Chi Chis too, and was practicing for my Hapa Loa.  That took a few weeks to burn down.

I understand what you are saying and yes, the ounce that you are eating has some good stuff, but it is tiny.  If you are at your weight and it is easy for you to maintain then no worries.  As a diet, however, they are just way too high calorie.  There is no fighting the math. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 09, 2019, 05:29:15 AM
I think you might be missing the point on nuts. I ate pecans often while losing over 65 pounds. I would feel pretty satisfied with 2 or 3 ounces. I often had just a half ounce as a small snack. If I had 2 ounces of nuts, I wouldn't be hungry for a while. If I had a cup of Ben and Jerry's, I would want another cup right away. If you can get into a routine of eating less volume, it is a lot easier to take weight off. Eating what I want, just less of it (sometimes more, making a tradeoff later), made it a lot easier for me to stick to it in order to lose the weight and keep it off (so far; in ~3 weeks I will have stayed at my new weight a year).

Also, the whole point of the thread is pushing the idea of eating as little sugar as possible. I eat a lot of sugar, but trying to cut back. Ben and Jerry's is not low sugar.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on February 09, 2019, 08:21:09 AM
Awesome work on the diet! 

I never understood nuts as a diet food.  A cup of peanuts has 830 calories.  A cup of cooked pasta has 220.  A cup of cheddar cheese has 530.  A cup of sugar has 774.  It is hard to find foods more packed with calories that nuts.  They feed nut paste to malnourished kids to pack on weight.  I consider it to be the absolute worst snack to have around the house.  Not only are they a caloric nightmare but they are delicious.  Just try to stop at the 4 (or 20) that are suggested.  :)

Calories are not the only thing to consider. Carbs and glucose play a huge role in weight gain. I eat 33g of salted macadamia nuts every day. I do weigh them out and I know itís easy to overeat nuts but one serving of Mac nuts will keep me much more satiated than a high carb food. Not trying to go down the whole calories in/calories out thing because I strongly disagree with that mindset but itís much more about the macronutrient breakdown than the straight calorie count.

Hi Kaya,

A cup of Macadamia nuts is 962 calories.  Almost twice the highest calorie Ben and Jerry's in the same portion.  They are the highest calorie nuts with the most fat and the least protein.  I found this out after happily downing a pound of them on my porch in Maui.  I was new to the island and was really feeling my Aloha spirit.  Had a couple of Chi Chis too, and was practicing for my Hapa Loa.  That took a few weeks to burn down.

I understand what you are saying and yes, the ounce that you are eating has some good stuff, but it is tiny.  If you are at your weight and it is easy for you to maintain then no worries.  As a diet, however, they are just way too high calorie.  There is no fighting the math.

I hear ya. Iím biased because I eat a ketogenic diet and Iím fat-adapted so the reason I eat Mac nuts is because they are so high in fat. I understand for most people itís very easy to slam a cup (or more) in one sitting. For me, calories are less of a concern than carbs so thatís why I mentioned that itís not as simple as comparing calorie counts.  B&J, while pretty low calorie for a serving, also has around 30g of carbs in a 1/4 cup. I consume 20g carbs (net) per day so this is why I would never even consider B&J. My wife recently ordered a box of ďnon dairy, non soy, etc etcĒ frozen dessert called Wink. 25 calories in a serving, 1g net carbs. The problem is that it tastes like frozen slush scooped directly off the side of the road.

This thread is about the evils of sugar though so Iíll let it get back on track. I appreciate all of the different viewpoints this thread brings.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on February 09, 2019, 10:20:02 AM
nuts just dont put weight on me--i spoon organic raw butters all day long--key protein source for me--cant live on just beans tofu and kale!!

simple carbs, processed grains, refined sugar products, baked goods (god forbid)? whole nuther story--but i just dont go there anymore

just my anecdote, admittedly

and td, bet, if you stick with it (if it hasnt begun already) you will ultimately actually enjoy the foods you are working with (and be annoyed when forced to eat otherwise at restaurant etc). you will go gradually to fighting weight and then just effortlessly live there---eventually the foods you want and get hungry for will be the foods that keep you trim and healthy--keep on it

what's funny too is that if i dont work out, i dont gain--i lose muscle and it's a fight to get it back, but i just dont gain--now that i am a "fake vegan"--daughters' moniker bc i cheat occasionally--as in wild fish and organic eggs occasionally---and a totally hypocritical dessert on rare occasions
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 09, 2019, 11:03:30 AM
Baked goods, nuts, carbs, all of it.  No problem, as long as the calories are in check.  Some items make that very hard as they are so calorie packed.  No choice but to go lighter on those (or make up for it later).  If someone were looking to lose weight, they are not going to do it with calorie surplus.  In the opposite, the Naked and Afraid effect.  Everyone, yes, everyone will lose weight at a calorie deficit. 

Sugar is the worst because (unlike nuts, etc) they are crap calories.  Food budget killers.  So, you have to get by with less real food.  That is nearly impossible to do long term. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 09, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Close friends of ours saw the weight I was losing and that got them into going on a (much needed) diet. I would see one of them making the daily (probably more) drive in the morning to the donut shop (2 blocks away) to get a Big Gulp size coke. To me the soda is probably the number one cause of their health and weight issues, with a close second of little to No exercise. They joined Weight Watchers and are working with some sort of WW point system. It sounds kinda of expensive, but I don't no exactly how much. I know that I'm saving a bunch of money by not buying a fountain or any other drink when we go out to eat. Our yogurt and dessert costs have dropped to about zero. My Lily's chocolate bars with Stevia are my small portioned treat here and there.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 10, 2019, 05:52:13 AM
Baked goods, nuts, carbs, all of it.  No problem, as long as the calories are in check.  Some items make that very hard as they are so calorie packed.  No choice but to go lighter on those (or make up for it later).  If someone were looking to lose weight, they are not going to do it with calorie surplus.  In the opposite, the Naked and Afraid effect.  Everyone, yes, everyone will lose weight at a calorie deficit. 

Sugar is the worst because (unlike nuts, etc) they are crap calories.  Food budget killers.  So, you have to get by with less real food.  That is nearly impossible to do long term.

Yep. I get what people say about there being more to it, but that's about overall health and ability to stick to it. Besides the Twinkie guy I posted earlier, there have also been people who did Snickers or Big Macs or all manner of things as the source for all or nearly all of their calories while losing weight. It's just done to prove that point - that calorie count is what determines whether you gain or lose, period. What you won't find are verified cases of people eating the "right foods" and exceeding the number of calories they burn and not gaining. Weight loss/gain is also not linear and nowhere close to immediate; it's about the surplus or deficit over time. Over the course of months, the math for the deficit I maintained and the weight I lost worked out as expected. There were periods of 2 weeks or so in there where it didn't seem to work out at all.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 10, 2019, 07:28:09 AM
I like this chart that compares various diet strategies:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/40/18/ce40181825cdb7546dd2b6d2d5d6931c.jpg)

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 10, 2019, 08:01:33 AM
I like this chart that compares various diet strategies:

That is awesome. 

Anything can be a diet as long as the calorie deficit is there.  Pizza can be great for instance.  We did a round of pizza dough yesterday and made it into some tasty Stromboli's and Calzone's.  The dough itself is really healthy and reasonable in calories.  The toppings can blow your whole day if you let it.  A big calzone with two slices of Mozeralla, a boatload of grilled onions, peppers and tomato sauce is 680 calories.  I had two and still had lots of calories to spare. 

Carbs like bread get a bad wrap.  It's fine in balance (actually good because it is filling and its real food).  You just have to be careful because a same sized Calzone can easily go over 2500 calories if you use a ton of cheese, sugary sauce, high cal dough, suasage, etc. 

I make bread a lot now and it is crazy the differences in the dough.  Some have a stick and half of butter, egg, milk in each loaf and a crazy amount of sugar.  Others have a tablespoon of olive oil and a teaspoon of sugar (4 grams -16 calories) just to get the yeast going.  One has 3 times the calories.  Both are awesome.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 10, 2019, 08:41:09 AM
I think one of the biggest things is believing in what you are doing so you are all in. I believe in CICO and I believe I can't self regulate. Both of these things seem pretty well proven. I am a logger because nothing else worked for me in the past. This is working.

A lot of people do the diets listed and track. Some don't track but follow suggested menus or get meal/snack ideas from them or from others who had success with the chosen diet. Those meals and snacks are building blocks used to construct a diet that is a caloric deficit for most adults. If they believe it is keto that's the difference that is making it work this time it can help give them the discipline to stay on keto as they know it, which has meals and snacks that add up to less than they burn each day.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ninja tuna on February 10, 2019, 04:22:15 PM
I think that chart is completely misleading.

I follow paleo/primal and have been eating that way along with intermittent fasting.  Most of the time I do not eat breakfast.  I have been reading up on keto lately too because they have some good recipes.  Not one those is about calorie deficits.  They are about eating different styles of food and leaving out others for the health benefits.  Despite eating generally only 2 meals a day, I can easily make that more than my basic caloric intake.  I have gone months at a time of weighing my food to know how many calories I am taking in to learn that . Broken down into macros too.  It gave me an idea about quantities and the effects it had on me. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 10, 2019, 05:29:29 PM
The chart is simply about losing weight with all those alternatives. If you are losing weight, you are in deficit, consuming fewer calories than you are burning. Decrease the consumption, increase the burn or some combination of the two to get into a deficit and you will lose weight. Eat more than you burn and you gain weight. There is no magic way to bend the laws of physics.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ninja tuna on February 11, 2019, 05:02:51 AM
I saw The Matrix too.

I am not disagreeing with CICO stuff.

But that chart is flat out wrong because it says paleo/primal, keto,  and intermittent fasting are about cutting calories.  Third column makes it pretty clear where it says, "HOW IT WORKS" which is wrong.  None of those ever talk about counting or cutting calories.  They do talk about eating healthy food until full.  I have read all the books from their creators just about.  And those are not diets.  Low fat diet, yeah, heard lots about that one.  Weight watchers, yeah, that is a diet plan.  The others are about health and eating healthy. Losing weight is a by-product.  They should not be on that chart. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 11, 2019, 05:54:50 AM
I saw The Matrix too.

I am not disagreeing with CICO stuff.

But that chart is flat out wrong because it says paleo/primal, keto,  and intermittent fasting are about cutting calories.  Third column makes it pretty clear where it says, "HOW IT WORKS" which is wrong.  None of those ever talk about counting or cutting calories.  They do talk about eating healthy food until full.  I have read all the books from their creators just about.  And those are not diets.  Low fat diet, yeah, heard lots about that one.  Weight watchers, yeah, that is a diet plan.  The others are about health and eating healthy. Losing weight is a by-product.  They should not be on that chart.

diet Dictionary result for diet
noun
1.
the kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats.
"a vegetarian diet"
synonyms:   selection of food, food and drink, food, foodstuffs, provisions, edibles, fare; More

If losing weight is a side effect then there is a calorie deficit. I visit a couple of weight loss forums from time to time. Keto is probably the biggest trend in weight loss right now.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 11, 2019, 06:58:23 AM
As a relative observer to this thread, the replies make interesting reading because there is an obvious inferred bias in peoples written replies that is somehow trying to legitimise poor nutritional choices - and shifting the emphasis to a calorie deficit (whereas the issue isn't just about weight loss, its about overall health and wellbeing). If you want to do any kind of activity that requires performance, there is plenty of evidence that consuming garbage is not going to get you there - no matter how much weight you apparently lose. I'd recommend the book: 'Racing Weight' by Matt Fitzgerald.

Using a media friendly anecdote of a college professor eating twinkies for a month to prove a point is frankly ridiculous. Not only is it a sample of just one (making it virtually meaningless) but its worth bearing in mind the much older 'supersize me' McDonalds example -whereby the guy that lived on that garbage for a month created numerous health issues based on the actual quality of the food.

Either way, there are some half decent peer reviewed journal publications out there that have a bit more credibility for you to consider on these issues. Try this one: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/79/5/899S/4690223?ij#109825928
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 11, 2019, 08:00:11 AM
I have seen some of that info about inefficiency of digestion before. I feel for the lab tech who had to test feces for passed calories. The one I read was about peanuts. Given an equal amount of all natural no additive smooth peanut butter, crunchy peanut butter and whole peanuts, there was a slight increase in the amount of undigested calories for each one.

It seems to be all over the map as far as which types of foods break down easier than others:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/

In one study, raw sweet potatoes had less calories ingested than meet, but cooked sweet potatoes had more than meat. I wish they had also done that test with fibrous fruits/veggies that are often eaten raw. But sugar is pretty much 100%. So is cooked ground beef. There are carbs as well as proteins that are prone to less efficient digestion and some that aren't. We all have our own anecdata. Mine indicates that I lost as much as expected with the CICO formula of 3500 calories per pound and by all measures (labs, physical endurance and strength) I am healthier than I have been in decades. I eat a relatively high amount of carbs, including sugar, and a lot of it is processed. I don't each much fat, though I have started trying to do that, reducing carbs to make space for it.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 11, 2019, 09:40:39 AM
It seems to be all over the map as far as which types of foods break down easier than others:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/


Thanks for this, that's an interesting article.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 11, 2019, 09:53:56 AM
As a relative observer to this thread, the replies make interesting reading because there is an obvious inferred bias in peoples written replies that is somehow trying to legitimise poor nutritional choices - and shifting the emphasis to a calorie deficit (whereas the issue isn't just about weight loss, its about overall health and wellbeing). If you want to do any kind of activity that requires performance, there is plenty of evidence that consuming garbage is not going to get you there - no matter how much weight you apparently lose. I'd recommend the book: 'Racing Weight' by Matt Fitzgerald.

Using a media friendly anecdote of a college professor eating twinkies for a month to prove a point is frankly ridiculous. Not only is it a sample of just one (making it virtually meaningless) but its worth bearing in mind the much older 'supersize me' McDonalds example -whereby the guy that lived on that garbage for a month created numerous health issues based on the actual quality of the food.

Either way, there are some half decent peer reviewed journal publications out there that have a bit more credibility for you to consider on these issues. Try this one: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/79/5/899S/4690223?ij#109825928

I am not advocating for poor nutritional choices but rather I am stating the often obscured fact that you won't lose weight if you are not at a calorie deficit.  You will gain weight if you are at a calorie surplus.  This is true regardless of your diet choices.  There is no diet out there that avoids this truth.

Supersize me was interesting because of how many people eat that way, but less relevant because the subject ate over 5000 calories a day.  If he were Nutritional Label Man and had eaten 2000 calories (of that crap) he would have maintained.  If he had eaten a bit less he would have lost weight (and still felt awful).

These diets can be helpful because they (some) direct people toward eating foods that energize and make it difficult to exceed calorie budget (even if that is not the published focus).



Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ninja tuna on February 11, 2019, 10:26:06 AM
It seems to be all over the map as far as which types of foods break down easier than others:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/


Thanks for this, that's an interesting article.

Yes an interesting article and agree it would have been very interesting if they had used vegetables too.

I wish when they were talking about the the mice losing or gaining 1 or 2 grams of weight they would have relayed that in percentages.  Or given the weights of the mice before and after for correlation.  The mice lsoing or gaining that much could be as easy as us fluctuating a few pounds during any given day. 

And it also backs up the saying that not all calories are equal.  And throws wrenches in the CICO argument, not contained to this forum.  Makes counting calories a whole lot more difficult  based on whether your food is cooked, picked, beaten, pounded, rolled.....and then you need a whole DNA test to figure out how much of it you are actually ingesting based on your genes.  Gonna need an advanced calculus and statistics class just to figure out  how many oreos I can have for desert.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 11, 2019, 10:47:50 AM
It seems to be all over the map as far as which types of foods break down easier than others:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-hidden-truths-about-calories/


Thanks for this, that's an interesting article.

Yes an interesting article and agree it would have been very interesting if they had used vegetables too.

I wish when they were talking about the the mice losing or gaining 1 or 2 grams of weight they would have relayed that in percentages.  Or given the weights of the mice before and after for correlation.  The mice lsoing or gaining that much could be as easy as us fluctuating a few pounds during any given day. 

And it also backs up the saying that not all calories are equal.  And throws wrenches in the CICO argument, not contained to this forum.  Makes counting calories a whole lot more difficult  based on whether your food is cooked, picked, beaten, pounded, rolled.....and then you need a whole DNA test to figure out how much of it you are actually ingesting based on your genes.  Gonna need an advanced calculus and statistics class just to figure out  how many oreos I can have for desert.

When you try to lose weight using CICO to adjust your normal preferences, you don't aim for just a few calories short of burn; if you have a lot to lose you start out aiming for around 500 low per day for a pound a week. The wrench thrown in there by the inaccuracies isn't that big.  After a month or two, you make adjustments based on how the actual loss is lining up with what you hoped and make adjustments. Typically the number adjusted is daily burn. It might really be a combination of factors, but you can dial it in pretty close just using the one. Eating different foods than what my normal diet has been without weighing food when I can and logging it, it would be extremely difficult to consistently get about the right amount unless I ate the same things every day or followed a meal plan (where someone else has done the calorie counting for me).

To get back on the subject of the thread, guess what food you are most likely to get the calories exactly right on?  ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 11, 2019, 01:17:09 PM
A little tangent, but holy crap this one got my attention:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2723626

45 years or older, a 10% increase in the proportion of ultraprocessed food consumption was statistically significantly associated with a 14% higher risk of all-cause mortality

Time to clean out the pantry/freezer and head over to the farmer's market...
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 11, 2019, 11:44:28 PM
A little tangent, but holy crap this one got my attention:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2723626

45 years or older, a 10% increase in the proportion of ultraprocessed food consumption was statistically significantly associated with a 14% higher risk of all-cause mortality

Time to clean out the pantry/freezer and head over to the farmer's market...
Iíd be very careful about drawing conclusions from a study design like that: as is often said, correlation does not prove causation. There may be a whole range of lifestyle and environmental factors at work which they have not measured that might be affecting mortality, and the poor food choices are an indicator of those factors, which are the real risk. For instance, perhaps people who are more type A in personality are more willing to eat crappy convenience foods because they feel more time-pressured. Or people who live in areas with more pollution tend to eat more of these foodstuffs, or people who work nightshifts do (because they have fewer shopping opportunities). Or maybe eating crappy foods indicates a risk-taking personality, or loneliness or other mental health factors. All of these factors would be risk factors for earlier death. I have no idea if any of these things are true, and I have not read the full article. But Iím just pointing out that this kind of research design cannot prove that the poor food choices are the cause of the mortality; it can only show a statistical association.

Having said that, I do not believe that all food is essentially good, and that foodstuffs only vary in how good they are for us. I believe that there are many foods that are actually actively bad for you, and that you would be much better off if you didnít put it in your mouth at all, even if it meant eating nothing at all (for a while). We are probably eating quite a bit of stuff that in 100 yearsí time will be considered toxic and people will be amazed at how their ancestors could possibly believe that something that didnít even look like food could be mistaken for it.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 12, 2019, 01:19:01 AM
And it also backs up the saying that not all calories are equal.  And throws wrenches in the CICO argument, not contained to this forum.  Makes counting calories a whole lot more difficult  based on whether your food is cooked, picked, beaten, pounded, rolled.....and then you need a whole DNA test to figure out how much of it you are actually ingesting based on your genes.  Gonna need an advanced calculus and statistics class just to figure out  how many oreos I can have for desert.

I'm a fan of issuing advice based on simple principles that can be practically adhered to. In this case, keep your foods, snacks and cooking methods as unprocessed and as straight as you can. Do that and you won't go far wrong. If you want a cake, eat one (it won't matter on your death bed) but don't make it a habit. Don't use exercise as a foil to poor diet.

In the case of you Americans (we don't get it in the UK much) - avoid corn syrup at all costs.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2019, 01:50:01 AM
And it also backs up the saying that not all calories are equal.  And throws wrenches in the CICO argument, not contained to this forum.  Makes counting calories a whole lot more difficult  based on whether your food is cooked, picked, beaten, pounded, rolled.....and then you need a whole DNA test to figure out how much of it you are actually ingesting based on your genes.  Gonna need an advanced calculus and statistics class just to figure out  how many oreos I can have for desert.

I'm a fan of issuing advice based on simple principles that can be practically adhered to. In this case, keep your foods, snacks and cooking methods as unprocessed and as straight as you can. Do that and you won't go far wrong. If you want a cake, eat one (it won't matter on your death bed) but don't make it a habit. Don't use exercise as a foil to poor diet.

In the case of you Americans (we don't get it in the UK much) - avoid corn syrup at all costs.
Yeah, and most US citizens donít know that you have foods widely sold to you that are actually banned on health grounds in Europe (eg. chlorinated chicken).

https://www.beuc.eu/blog/what-is-wrong-with-chlorinated-chicken/

The French generally put a lot of time and effort into eating well, and their Nationís diet is probably better than yours as a consequence, overall. And they are slimmer.  So it may be that eating processed foods in France would make a bigger *relative* difference in risk rate to a French person (because the people around them follow good diet) than eating processed food would to a US citizen, where eating processed food is more common. In other words, the baseline rates may be different between the countries so you might not be able to extrapolate well from a French sample to a US one.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on February 12, 2019, 02:21:19 AM
This is pretty telling:

(https://img.livestrong.com/640/ppds/86b96886-77f0-4b9f-b387-81b0d8340097.jpg)

(https://img.livestrong.com/640/ppds/5dd83d3f-aca4-47bd-9389-f802cb72f37f.jpg)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 12, 2019, 04:34:12 AM
This is pretty telling:


Not as starkly as that chart appears - some of the nations over on the left have shorter average heights which distorts things a little. This being said, the UK is getting increasingly worse (particularly in children) and I find visits to the USA frankly disturbing in just how out of control obesity has become. Any country that stocks 5XL trousers as a norm and considers that ok has a serious problem.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2019, 04:47:19 AM
This is pretty telling:


Not as starkly as that chart appears - some of the nations over on the left have shorter average heights which distorts things a little. This being said, the UK is getting increasingly worse (particularly in children) and I find visits to the USA frankly disturbing in just how out of control obesity has become. Any country that stocks 5XL trousers as a norm and considers that ok has a serious problem.
Yes, and of course, obesity rates are very different across different US regions:

Obesity Rates by State

1. Alabama   33.0
2. Alaska   25.7
3. Arizona   26.0
4. Arkansas   34.5
5. California   25.0
6. Colorado   20.5
7. Connecticut   25.6
8. Delaware   26.9
9. D.C. 21.9
10. Florida   25.2
11. Georgia   29.1
12. Hawaii   23.6
13. Idaho   26.8
14. Illinois   28.1
15. Indiana   31.4
16. Iowa   30.4
17. Kansas   29.9
18. Kentucky   31.3
19. Louisiana   34.7
20. Maine   28.4
21. Maryland   27.6
22. Mass.   22.9
23. Michigan   31.1
24. Minnesota   25.7
25. Mississippi   34.6
26. Missouri   29.6
27. Montana   24.3
28. Nebraska   28.6
29. Nevada   26.2
30. New Hampsh.   27.3
31. New Jersey   24.6
32. New Mexico   27.1
33. New York   23.6
34. N. Carolina   29.6
35. N. Dakota   29.7
36. Ohio   30.1
37. Oklahoma   32.2
38. Oregon   27.3
39. Penns.   29.1
40. Rhode Isl.   25.7
41. S. Carolina   31.6
42. S. Dakota   28.1
43. Tennessee   31.1
44. Texas   29.2
45. Utah   24.3
46. Vermont   23.7
47. Virginia   27.4
48. Washington   26.8
49. W. Virginia   33.8
50. Wisconsin   29.7
51. Wyoming   24.6

Source: https://brandongaille.com/list-average-human-weight-by-country-and-american-states/

But I think it is generally accepted that amongst the richest countries, US people have the highest rates of obesity.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2019, 04:50:30 AM
On the upside though, if you like your sexual partners to be on the plump side, you are gonna have a ball in some of these US states.

And the POTUS is doing what he can to set a good example to US citizens with his ďastonishingly excellentĒ physical test results.

https://youtu.be/1ESaK8C7Voo
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 12, 2019, 06:30:50 AM
On the upside though, if you like your sexual partners to be on the plump side, you are gonna have a ball in some of these US states.

And the POTUS is doing what he can to set a good example to US citizens with his ďastonishingly excellentĒ physical test results.

https://youtu.be/1ESaK8C7Voo
(https://pics.me.me/trump-tim-the-healthiest-president-ever-elected-obama-makeameme-org-healthiest-13980697.png)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
Well, at least sometimes he apparently tries to cut down on his carbs. A little.

https://www.delish.com/food-news/a20735488/donald-trump-eats-burger-with-half-a-bun/

And at his age, kitesurfing probably has to be replaced by golf for most people.

It's probably good for his health that he takes so much time to play golf.

Some people would probably prefer it is he played golf 100% of each day :)

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on February 12, 2019, 09:10:46 AM
given he drives his cart up on the greens when playing (perfect!), unlikely golf gets him much real exercise........
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 12, 2019, 12:02:43 PM
given he drives his cart up on the greens when playing (perfect!), unlikely golf gets him much real exercise........
Shame. Maybe he should forgo the golf cart, since physical exercise boosts your IQ, especially in the elderly.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141010-why-exercise-boosts-iq
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 23, 2019, 08:49:33 AM
 It's been pouring rain, wind chill into the low 40's and dirty water. It's hard to get motivated in those conditions. The sun was out, the rain is gone yesterday, so I paddled my first distance paddle in over 2 weeks. Last night I had a Rider's Club burger and a nice draft beer. This morning I weighed myself.... still losing weight. Just staying off the sugar.

 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 23, 2019, 09:25:01 AM
I have been cycling - good days and bad as far as sugar consumption. I do a fair amount of cardio; it's about all I can do at the gym besides legs and back extensions while my shoulders are out of commission (one from surgery, the other from a strain that will heal with PT). So I binge watch Hulu on the arc trainer about 3 times a week, an hour or two at a time. So even though I go crazy every now and then, I eat normally the rest of the time and the cardio knocks it out. My BMI remains below 24 - not that I think that's the greatest measure there ever was, but it's more objective than me just saying I am fit and trim, which I am saying.

That's just total calorie consumption versus burn, weight and body composition. All my vitals and blood tests from a January physical were great. My primary told me to just keep doing what I'm doing.

But I am seeing enough evidence about high sugar content and prepared foods to want to cut back. It's just been really hard. I really like a lot of the stuff and I do feel like I am depriving myself when I cut back much. Fruit helps me cut processed sugar out, but replaces it with natural sugar. I am not as convinced that sugar from fruits is as bad. In fact, I think processed sugar gets more blame than it should because it is found in heavily processed foods, which seem to have some association with health issues whether they are high sugar or not.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 23, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
I'm sleeping better than ever. My knees and feet don't ache anymore. I'm more tuned it to the flavors of the food I eat. The tiniest bit of sugar in a sauce, or dressing jumps out at me. I've even had a few beers this past week. I still eat a banana in the morning and another piece of fruit in the afternoon. I feel like I'm eating healthy, and I am losing weight. Plus I've gone down a waist size 8) 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 23, 2019, 10:02:42 AM
My sleep sucks, but I think that's currently due to stress. Diet changes may help, though.

I am torn about whether or not to drop any more weight. If I do, it will probably be only another 5 pounds. The big loss of about 60 pounds to get below a BMI of 25 ended a year ago and I have drifted down another 7-10 (bounces around) since then, where I have been pretty steady the last few months.

I do have lots of joint trouble. Whether I believe in it or not, I have factors that make it worth a try. It does concern me that it feels like an addiction when I try to kick sugar, even for a while. Actually, it was easier to stop drinking (day 608).
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on February 23, 2019, 05:20:23 PM
Reminder.....we are NOT talking mental health here. ;)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Area 10 on February 23, 2019, 05:40:12 PM
Reminder.....we are NOT talking mental health here. ;)
Mental and physical health are more related than you might think.

Itís strange how we often think of one organ of our body (the brain), as somehow independent of the rest of our body. But itís all one highly interconnected system, and the influences are bidirectional.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on February 23, 2019, 06:22:19 PM
Today marks 7 months that my wife and I have switched to a keto lifestyle. 197 when I started, 157 today. Has never felt like a "diet" or restrictive approach to food. Have been maintaining this weight for 3+ months now, not looking to lose any more. Just polished off a ribeye from a local farm, broccoli with ghee and a couple glasses of wine. Dessert was a glass of raw milk (my first time having that) and some macadamia nuts. So good.

Talldude, stoked you are still making progress!
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 23, 2019, 08:07:15 PM
Today marks 7 months that my wife and I have switched to a keto lifestyle. 197 when I started, 157 today. Has never felt like a "diet" or restrictive approach to food. Have been maintaining this weight for 3+ months now, not looking to lose any more. Just polished off a ribeye from a local farm, broccoli with ghee and a couple glasses of wine. Dessert was a glass of raw milk (my first time having that) and some macadamia nuts. So good.

Talldude, stoked you are still making progress!
Thanks' Kayadogg. You guys missing SoCal? How's the CL addiction going there? How many Scotty C putters do you need to sell?  ::)
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on February 24, 2019, 02:53:46 AM
Thanks' Kayadogg. You guys missing SoCal? How's the CL addiction going there? How many Scotty C putters do you need to sell?  ::)

Weíre pretty happy to be back in New England and I still get back out there for work every couple of months so that helps. We do miss Dana Point and San Clemente. The CL addiction has all but dried up. Thereís nothing good available within a 3 hour drive. I still have my Stringify workflow app alert me when a new board gets posted in RI, MA, CT or NH but itís never anything exciting. I still browse the Orange County CL though!

Iíve moved on from Scotty putters and as luck would have it, discovered an old surfer/golfer based out of Huntington Beach that makes amazing putters. Thatís the latest addiction, especially this winter. Kristin doesnít mind though, she said putters take up a lot less room than boards... which I think was permission to buy more?  ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 24, 2019, 09:56:10 AM
This article hits a little too close to home:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/09/health/sugar-detox-food-drayer/index.html

I have my issues with addictive behavior and the short bit about sugar addiction is spooky. I am thinking about trying the program and the first thing that came into my mind was to cut loose and enjoy the rest of the day. Cutting artificial sweeteners as well makes sense in this context. As a former problem drinker, I think drinking NA beers would be a profoundly stupid idea. It's a lot easier not to drink if I never feel like it's Miller time.  A sugar free orange Monster first thing in the morning likely kicks the sweet tooth into high gear. I don't do that every morning, but sometimes.

Kind of interesting that even lactose is off the table to start with. I am going to have to eat a fair amount of nuts to keep from losing too much weight. I don't eat mammals, so I have mostly lean protein sources. I have recently switched from skinless chicken breasts to skinless thighs. I have gone so long without eating skin, butter and most other high fat foods that I have lost my taste for most of it. I do like unsalted roasted peanuts and raw pecans.

Anyway, I will give this a try starting tomorrow.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 25, 2019, 09:52:18 AM
They are not making it easy at work today - a birthday on day one of my cold turkey no sugar diet and for the first three days it's totally zip, nada, nothing - no sugar, no starchy veggies, no grain. Eggs with veggie only salsa for breakfast, salad and baked chicken for lunch, peanuts for snacking so far. i almost caved for an amazing looking pastry with the special occassion excuse, but summoned up the will power to walk away. It can only get easier, right? And in 3 days, I get an apple...
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 25, 2019, 10:57:34 AM
It's not going to get easier at this point. Try my peanut butter on salted rice cakes as a snack. The rice cakes fill you up, and the peanut butter flavor stays with you for a while. I walked into the grocery store yesterday and I could smell the sugar coming from the bakery all the way across the store. It's crazy how much sweeter (almost too sweet) salad dressing, salsa, and tomato sauce tastes to me now. Even plain whole grain bread tastes like a pastry.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 25, 2019, 01:20:05 PM
It's not going to get easier at this point. Try my peanut butter on salted rice cakes as a snack. The rice cakes fill you up, and the peanut butter flavor stays with you for a while. I walked into the grocery store yesterday and I could smell the sugar coming from the bakery all the way across the store. It's crazy how much sweeter (almost too sweet) salad dressing, salsa, and tomato sauce tastes to me now. Even plain whole grain bread tastes like a pastry.

Maybe I should bring up the subject of intermittent fasting.....
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on February 25, 2019, 01:40:14 PM
It's not going to get easier at this point. Try my peanut butter on salted rice cakes as a snack. The rice cakes fill you up, and the peanut butter flavor stays with you for a while. I walked into the grocery store yesterday and I could smell the sugar coming from the bakery all the way across the store. It's crazy how much sweeter (almost too sweet) salad dressing, salsa, and tomato sauce tastes to me now. Even plain whole grain bread tastes like a pastry.

Maybe I should bring up the subject of intermittent fasting.....
StandingDan does that. We were talking about it a few weeks ago on a distance paddle. The intermittent fasting is sustainable for him as a form of weight loss. I'm finding a reduced sugar path that is sustainable for me with an added benefit of losing weight. If you're just fasting but still consuming higher levels of sugar, then your not getting the improved health benefit of lowering your sugar intake.   
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on February 25, 2019, 02:25:39 PM
Hopefully not too far off topic, but...along with giving up alcohol and seriously watching my sugar intake, I also quit taking any vitamins and or supplements.
However,  in an effort to see if it would help my arthritis pain in my hands, shoulders and hips,  I started using liquid Tumeric that I first saw at Costco. From a company called Qunol . I still used some powdered raw tumeric in soups etc,  but this liquid stuff I can take a sip of every morning before breakfast and it tastes ok. It's 1000mg Curcumin and 9mg vitamin C.  10 Calories for a Tbsp serving. Been using it for a couple of months now and I really feel like it has helped. I can now make a fist when I first get up in the morning and I am not as stiff. Anyone else using Tumeric? 
P.S.  Since dropping the alcohol and substituting Almond Milk or V8 low sodium drink,  I have been keeping my weight pretty steady @156 lbs. My BMI is 123-124. Been way too cold for paddling lately,  but when I get seriously back to it my guess is my weight will get down near 150....my target.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 25, 2019, 02:56:22 PM
It's not going to get easier at this point. Try my peanut butter on salted rice cakes as a snack. The rice cakes fill you up, and the peanut butter flavor stays with you for a while. I walked into the grocery store yesterday and I could smell the sugar coming from the bakery all the way across the store. It's crazy how much sweeter (almost too sweet) salad dressing, salsa, and tomato sauce tastes to me now. Even plain whole grain bread tastes like a pastry.

Maybe I should bring up the subject of intermittent fasting.....

I did the by day kind - 5:2 - where the 2 days are not total fasts, just very low total calories. The by hours one seems more popular. Anyway, I did 5:2 back in 2017 when I was early in the weight loss phase. I have been at a healthy weight for a year now, but trying to dial back sugar and balance my diet better. I really should eat more fat than I do. That's one reason I am subbing in peanuts instead of sugary snacks.

First 3 days - no grain, not even rice cakes. The only peanut butter in the house is Jif, with added sugar, so it is off the list for the cold turkey period. Hummus on celery is a decent snack.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 25, 2019, 03:02:52 PM
Hopefully not too far off topic, but...along with giving up alcohol and seriously watching my sugar intake, I also quit taking any vitamins and or supplements.
However,  in an effort to see if it would help my arthritis pain in my hands, shoulders and hips,  I started using liquid Tumeric that I first saw at Costco. From a company called Qunol . I still used some powdered raw tumeric in soups etc,  but this liquid stuff I can take a sip of every morning before breakfast and it tastes ok. It's 1000mg Curcumin and 9mg vitamin C.  10 Calories for a Tbsp serving. Been using it for a couple of months now and I really feel like it has helped. I can now make a fist when I first get up in the morning and I am not as stiff. Anyone else using Tumeric? 
P.S.  Since dropping the alcohol and substituting Almond Milk or V8 low sodium drink,  I have been keeping my weight pretty steady @156 lbs. My BMI is 123-124. Been way too cold for paddling lately,  but when I get seriously back to it my guess is my weight will get down near 150....my target.

I think you mean a BMI of 23 to 24 as I am guessing you are 5'8" like me. I have been hovering around 155 the last few months. I was more like 225 in early 2017 and then started working on getting in better shape. I got to 164 a year ago, which was my goal as that put me at 24.9, the first time at a healthy weight in decades. Since then I have drifted lower and decided I liked being in the 150s and now thinking about getting to 150.

My wife uses tumeric. I probably should. There is some good science behind that.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on February 25, 2019, 03:12:16 PM
Thanks for correcting that :).....yes, 23.4 at the moment. I'm 5'8 1/2" and my weight varies from 155-158. I weigh everyday and I can usually feel whether or not I have lost or gained.
Lost 30 lbs since taking up paddleboarding in 2014. We made what you would call a lifestyle change which was simply MORE exercise and better monitoring of what we eat using MyFitnessPal app and tracking exercise with Endomondo. Still tracking everything carefully. But this year the big thing for me is ditching alcohol. I still cheat with a little vodka in either my bloody mary or my grapefruit juice. Problem is my wife simply will not go along with ditching wine and or her vodka in the bloody mary. But I will continue to work on her. We are both staying pretty stable on our weight now and we both feel pretty good. I'm 68. She is 67 and still working as an accountant at home. I am now totally retired so I have the time to exercise twice a day if I want...and sometimes do. Life is good right now. Just want to stay healthy.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: kayadogg on February 25, 2019, 03:30:54 PM
Problem is my wife simply will not go along with ditching wine and or her vodka in the bloody mary.

Check out Dry Farm Wines (https://www.dryfarmwines.com). We order our wine from them. They source the wine from small family-run operations in Europe who donít add a ton of extra sugar and also let the yeast completely consume the natural sugar. They lab test each bottle. We usually get a mix of red/white. Plus side is that you feel 100 times better the next morning if you happen to have a few too many.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 25, 2019, 04:12:39 PM
Thanks for correcting that :).....yes, 23.4 at the moment. I'm 5'8 1/2" and my weight varies from 155-158. I weigh everyday and I can usually feel whether or not I have lost or gained.
Lost 30 lbs since taking up paddleboarding in 2014. We made what you would call a lifestyle change which was simply MORE exercise and better monitoring of what we eat using MyFitnessPal app and tracking exercise with Endomondo. Still tracking everything carefully. But this year the big thing for me is ditching alcohol. I still cheat with a little vodka in either my bloody mary or my grapefruit juice. Problem is my wife simply will not go along with ditching wine and or her vodka in the bloody mary. But I will continue to work on her. We are both staying pretty stable on our weight now and we both feel pretty good. I'm 68. She is 67 and still working as an accountant at home. I am now totally retired so I have the time to exercise twice a day if I want...and sometimes do. Life is good right now. Just want to stay healthy.
I am also using mfp to track and I have still been tracking after losing the weight; I am not sure I can become an intuitive eater. I track every day, though sometimes I don't bother with dinner and later if I know I am on track. I weigh often; never more than 3 days apart and sometimes every day for a while. I track miles paddling with Strava but don't integrate it with mfp as I think it is too high, so I enter by hand. Same with cardio at the gym. I also gave up alcohol, but in my case it was completely. That was 610 days ago and any assumption you make from me knowing exactly how many days is probably correct.

EDIT - Oh yeah, I am 60. I made my goal of turning 60 fit and trim. I will be tracking thoroughly the next several days. It's after dinner and I have only had 13g of sugar; 8g of that was in celery. 104g of protein and 75g of fat. 64g carbs and most of that was artichoke hearts and celery.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: connector14 on February 25, 2019, 05:23:23 PM
You sound a little like me (wife says I am too anal about my fitness habits) ;D
You didn't say,  but are you married?  In my case,  having a partner with similar fitness and goals was important and I am sure we would not have been able to meet are goals if we weren't encouraging each other along the way. Cutting the wine and other alcohol is a work in progress  :o
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 26, 2019, 05:39:29 AM
You sound a little like me (wife says I am too anal about my fitness habits) ;D
You didn't say,  but are you married?  In my case,  having a partner with similar fitness and goals was important and I am sure we would not have been able to meet are goals if we weren't encouraging each other along the way. Cutting the wine and other alcohol is a work in progress  :o

I am married, but it's been a very strained relationship for a number of years and unlikely to last much longer. It's pretty certain we are going different ways in retirement. She has heart trouble, is overweight, out of shape and smokes. It's not minor (not sure any heart trouble is) but she has never had a true heart attack. She had an event several years ago the doctor explained was not actually a heart attack, but she insists on calling it a heart attack. No surgery or devices, just meds and advice (lose weight, stop smoking). She talked a lot about healthy eating and losing until I started eating healthy and losing. At first she derided it, telling me I would fail and that I would gain it back. For the last year she just quit discussing it with me.

Separate rooms (full time), doesn't go to my work activities (I invite her) and does not invite me to hers nor to "plus one" activities with some other groups she is in. It's oddly cordial day to day. I bear a lot of the blame; I have (or hopefully had) a problem with alcohol and a mood disorder (the two are related). I would go off meds, take a deep dive and drink then lie about it. I have stayed on the meds about 2 years, I have not had a drink in over 600 days. I was "functional" - never missed work, no DUIs, didn't cause money trouble, etc, but still was a problem.  Anyway, she has decided that she will never trust me again and no longer wants to be physically or emotionally intimate. After she told me this, I expected her to leave or ask me to, but she didn't and just carries on like everything is fine.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but no, I am getting no help or encouragement at home.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2019, 06:54:47 AM
It's not going to get easier at this point. Try my peanut butter on salted rice cakes as a snack. The rice cakes fill you up, and the peanut butter flavor stays with you for a while. I walked into the grocery store yesterday and I could smell the sugar coming from the bakery all the way across the store. It's crazy how much sweeter (almost too sweet) salad dressing, salsa, and tomato sauce tastes to me now. Even plain whole grain bread tastes like a pastry.

Maybe I should bring up the subject of intermittent fasting.....

I did the by day kind - 5:2 - where the 2 days are not total fasts, just very low total calories. The by hours one seems more popular. Anyway, I did 5:2 back in 2017 when I was early in the weight loss phase. I have been at a healthy weight for a year now, but trying to dial back sugar and balance my diet better. I really should eat more fat than I do. That's one reason I am subbing in peanuts instead of sugary snacks.

First 3 days - no grain, not even rice cakes. The only peanut butter in the house is Jif, with added sugar, so it is off the list for the cold turkey period. Hummus on celery is a decent snack.

I'm currently trying it but I was reading a couple of papers about it and the key that convinced me was:  to look at it as an exercise in nutritional timing - not a diet. In other words, you don't lower your necessary calories and if you're active, you need to cram your full days intake into the narrower window (8 hours in my case) and then fast appropriately for my other 16.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 26, 2019, 08:43:42 AM
I'm currently trying IF but I was reading a couple of papers about it and the key that convinced me was:  to look at it as an exercise in nutritional timing - not a diet. In other words, you don't lower your necessary calories and if you're active, you need to cram your full days intake into the narrower window (8 hours in my case) and then fast appropriately for my other 16.
Trimmed and edited so we are just talking IF. The jury is out as to whether there is much or anything to timing. Not a lot of hard science showing there is and a lot that shows there isn't. I think it matters to athletes that need max glycogen in the muscles or lots of protein available when working to build muscle.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on February 26, 2019, 11:03:21 AM
The jury is out as to whether there is much or anything to timing. Not a lot of hard science showing there is and a lot that shows there isn't. I think it matters to athletes that need max glycogen in the muscles or lots of protein available when working to build muscle.

There's been a couple of recent journal papers that looked at it that backed it. It didn't suggest performance would increase but health would (and weight may well reduce). It's a work in progress for me but I know a few athletes in other sports who have had great success with it. The one thing that has been discussed is that if you eat properly with IF, muscle maintence/building shouldn't be a problem..... but that's more complicated than it sounds when you've got less time to play with.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 27, 2019, 03:24:34 AM
The jury is out as to whether there is much or anything to timing. Not a lot of hard science showing there is and a lot that shows there isn't. I think it matters to athletes that need max glycogen in the muscles or lots of protein available when working to build muscle.

There's been a couple of recent journal papers that looked at it that backed it. It didn't suggest performance would increase but health would (and weight may well reduce). It's a work in progress for me but I know a few athletes in other sports who have had great success with it. The one thing that has been discussed is that if you eat properly with IF, muscle maintence/building shouldn't be a problem..... but that's more complicated than it sounds when you've got less time to play with.

I can believe the strength/performance angle. On of the many places the old food as fuel analogy is over simplified is that there isn't just a single tank. There are glycogen stores all over the body and they can be emptied a lot faster than replenished.

As far as timing and weight management, the biggest one I read crushed all the other studies in raw numbers but the subjects were mostly sedentary - hospital patients. They did a study crunching numbers that were already in the system - meal times, nutritional content and patient weights; sorting it out by different timing parameters showed no difference.

After two days on the cold turkey no sugar diet, the scale says I lost 3 pounds but it is water. I am having a hard time staying hydrated. Drinking plenty of water, but it just moves right through me.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on February 27, 2019, 05:20:56 AM
Dang it - didn't get back quick enough to edit. I was going to add one other thing. I think the cold turkey sugar diet should limit, rather than eliminate, starchy carbs the first few days. Eating just protein, fat and non starchy veggies is leaving me hungrier than I usually am. A sweet potato only has 5 grams of sugar per 100 grams; not likely to set my sweet tooth on fire or anything. I am sticking to it for now, but i suspect that a lot of people bail on it from the low carbs causing hunger. I think a mix of all 3 macros is far more satiating than any macro alone. Fat lacks the bulk to help much.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on March 01, 2019, 04:18:36 PM
Tuesday small OJ and Banana for breakfast, Salad for lunch, Hamburger and Fries for dinner.
Wednesday same breakfast, similar lunch, 4 tacos and bowl of chips and salsa and a beer.
Thursday same breakfast, 2 tacos and a bowl of chips and salsa for lunch, Bucket of Clams, Salmon and BBQ Shrimp with rice and 2 beers.
This morning :) Still losing weight and eating everything I want. No sweet drinks and no desserts.


Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on March 01, 2019, 04:37:36 PM
The scale has nudged a little lower the last few days. It's too quick to be true body mass (fat) loss; just less in the gut and not as hydrated doing the low sugar/carbs. After the first 3 days, I did allow myself a little sugar, mostly fruit, and some carbs. The plan starts easing them back in.

I have pretty much bottomed out weight wise. This morning I was 151. I might go to 149 just to see that on the scale; I don't think I have been under 150 for 40 years. I am over 70 pounds below what I was a couple of years ago. Anyway, this is a good weight for 5'8" - low 150s. 151 is a BMI of 23.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: ukgm on March 11, 2019, 11:03:31 AM
Good podcast this on fasting and some research backing it up:

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/b/8/4b80f9e705028310/John_Hawley_271.mp3?c_id=35248394&cs_id=35248394&expiration=1551988047&hwt=d6c9c04d9fcc7d3d02e64607f1e69d2a
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on March 31, 2019, 08:47:17 AM
Update:  My weight loss seems to have reached a plateau. Holding steady at 225- 226 lbs. I dropped a waist size+ which has me back in my old board shorts. All my pants are a little baggy with the belt cinched. My feet don't hurt anymore after standing for hours. My knees feel better too. At the peak of my SUP racing 7 or 8 years ago, I weighed 225 lbs. I was also paddling almost 50 miles a week. I paddled every day, but I ate all the high sugar crap I wanted. Also drank a lot more then. Now, I'm in a steady eating routine with low sugar being the only focus. No restrictions on what I eat other than being aware of the sugar content. No more cokes, sweet teas, sweeten lemonades, concentrated juices, jams, coffee creamers, any sweet drinks, cookies, donuts, cakes, brownies, ice cream, yogurt, bagels, cereals, milk, flavored chips, flavored crackers, or candy. That's it. And that rules out almost every aisle of the grocery store. Now it's Meats, Fish, Eggs, Cheese, Potato's, Bread, Vegetables, Fruit (2 a day), Low sugar peanut butter, an occasional beer or wine, and Lucy's brand 'dark chocolate with almonds' bars sweetened with Stevia. I always drink water only at meals.
It's the way I eat now. Professional and college basketball players that are my height, weigh about my weight or more. I would have to start counting calories, and restricting carbs to go lower. I don't think I could sustain that kind of diet. I would alienate myself from what my family eats. That would be very difficult. The only time I weighed less than 220 lbs was when I was less than 20 years old.     

I'm getting my blood work / labs drawn tomorrow. My doctor hasn't seen me for 6 months. He's going to be impressed when he see's my labs, not to mention my weight loss. I'm sure he'll give me the, "that looks good. We'll see if you stay good six months from now?" He keeps me on my toes.     
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on March 31, 2019, 10:53:47 PM
TallDude, sounds like your "plateau" is a pretty good place to be.

It seems like each person has a weight they can achieve with some effort, but if they try to go below that, the effort intensifies greatly and even if they drop below it, it's only temporary.

Straying from the sugar topic, I have a theory....Some people are genetically gifted with the various physical characteristics associated with being healthy--trim, athletic, low body fat, etc.  Others are less so.  And while anyone should avoid weighing more than what's ideal for them, the idea is wrong that if you get to "pretty good", you'll be healthier if you get to "great" in terms of the statistics.  Some people will reach the "ideal" statistics easily, others may be able to but that doesn't mean they'll be healthier for it, and others won't come very close.  Those people won't be as healthy as the healthiest people, but that's life, and they're never going to match the health of the healthiest by pursuing achieving the same physical characteristics as those healthiest people.

I'd compare it to financial wealth.  A characteristic of wealthier people may be they drive more expensive cars or live in more expensive neighborhoods on average than other people.  But buying a more expensive car or house won't make you wealthier, even though it does mean you're matching some of the characteristics of those with more wealth.  So for example, while having a low body fat percentage is a characteristic of people who are very fit, that doesn't mean trying to have that characteristic for yourself will make you fitter. 

Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on May 10, 2019, 08:40:51 AM
Did lose a little more this month. My belly finally flattened out and my board shorts when from a 40 to a 36. I just bought new jeans and shorts too. All my old ones were falling off and looked baggy. My ankles and knees don't pop anymore either.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on May 10, 2019, 10:07:19 AM
i was going to ask td, but didnt want to salt your wounds, in case youd fallen off the wagon

ive been wearing baggy slovenly pants since i became a cheating vegan 2 years ago--with me, the minute i size down ill start eating like a slob again....

kinda like yoga--i find a class, i like it much, i buy a 10 class discount book--i cease attending........
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on May 10, 2019, 10:32:54 AM
Did lose a little more this month. My belly finally flattened out and my board shorts when from a 40 to a 36. I just bought new jeans and shorts too. All my old ones were falling off and looked baggy. My ankles and knees don't pop anymore either.
Wow! Great work Dude, hope I recognize you now when I see you down at the Patch.

--with me, the minute i size down ill start eating like a slob again....
Must be something in our "jeans"...mine cause me the exact same problem.  So now I just start pigging out again when mine start getting loose to save money on what's inevitably only going to be a temporary wardrobe replacement anyway. 36's FTW! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on May 10, 2019, 12:39:13 PM
Must be something in our "jeans"...mine cause me the exact same problem.  So now I just start pigging out again when mine start getting loose to save money on what's inevitably only going to be a temporary wardrobe replacement anyway. 36's FTW! ;) ;D
I was wearing 38s and they were getting snug, now have a couple of pairs of 30s but mostly 32. Got rid of everything over 32 so it would be a major "admit defeat" event. I am going with the mindset that it is not temporary. Over 14 months, actually more like 16 from when I could wear 32 but not as loose as they are now, and no regain. Still requires some maintenance effort.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on May 16, 2019, 04:41:37 PM
Seeing my weight reduction had slowed over the past few months, I decided to make another minor adjustment to my current 'eating what I want' (just no sugar) routine. For a week I just ate salads or half a sandwich for lunch. Still eating whatever for dinner. I actually dropped more weight and the 36 waist (was 40) is just right now. I haven't been below 220 lbs since I was in my twenties. I even fit in the trendy Quicksilver and Billabong button-down shirts. Maybe a lower volume board is in reach now?
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on June 11, 2019, 03:48:16 AM
I am over 70 pounds below what I was a couple of years ago.

That is remarkable.  When you think of body fat as storing ~ 3,500 calories per pound and your likely daily burn somewhere around 2500 (?) you were holding an extra 245,000 calories or 98 days of surplus energy in reserve. 
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on June 11, 2019, 06:49:28 AM
td--i assume youve checked the dark mole/freckle on top of your left foot--prolly nuttin, but tops of feet are common melanoma sites--sorry to buzzkill, but just sayin


find em early and cut em out, nbd--ignore them at small risk of big trouble
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on June 11, 2019, 07:06:35 AM
td--i assume youve checked the dark mole/freckle on top of your left foot--prolly nuttin, but tops of feet are common melanoma sites--sorry to buzzkill, but just sayin


find em early and cut em out, nbd--ignore them at small risk of big trouble
I see my dermatologist once a year. For a while it was every 6 months because he was finding a few every visit, but now it's one or two a year. his batting average is pretty high; nearly all of them come back with that "not cancer but trending that way" diagnosis. Anyway, I am often surprised by which are and are not a concern. Neither dark nor light is as suspect as a mix of both, especially if the light color is around the edges and it's a funky shape.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on June 11, 2019, 09:32:35 AM
td--i assume youve checked the dark mole/freckle on top of your left foot--prolly nuttin, but tops of feet are common melanoma sites--sorry to buzzkill, but just sayin


find em early and cut em out, nbd--ignore them at small risk of big trouble
My dermatologist has been looking at me head to toe for years now. I see him probably 4 times a year. From being on the water a lot, being on the snow a lot, working outdoors for a good part of my life, and being of northern European descent I've had lots of skin removed. Had MOHS proceedure on my left temple two years ago. I just got a tube of Flourouracil topical chemo cream that I'm going to put on my arms and face to see if any Basal cell shows up. I'll do that every 5 years or so.

BTW, I've had that mole for my whole life, and it looks the same. If it changes, I'll definitely have it looked at. 

Still at 218 - 219 lbs. I'm now going to buy new 36 waist pants. I've been cranking the belt down to keep all my pants up.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: eastbound on June 12, 2019, 08:37:18 AM
good td--obvi you are top of skin issues

im still walking around in baggie pants i dont unbutton to put on or take off--belt cinched up tight or theyd just fall to the ground
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: RideTheGlide on June 12, 2019, 09:52:09 AM
I am over 70 pounds below what I was a couple of years ago.

That is remarkable.  When you think of body fat as storing ~ 3,500 calories per pound and your likely daily burn somewhere around 2500 (?) you were holding an extra 245,000 calories or 98 days of surplus energy in reserve.
Thanks. My favorite visualization was cases of butter that you see when they are restocking the dairy aisle at the grocery store. Each box was 24 pounds of fat. When I was about 50 pounds down, I thought of it like I used to walk around with a case of butter under each arm. Now it's more like 3 cases total, though try as you might you don't lose just fat. If you work at it hard enough, it can be nearly all fat but there will be some lean body mass lost also.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on June 12, 2019, 12:22:04 PM
This morning I found my board stoke again. I haven't rode my 9' green machine in probably 4 years. I did paddle it out a few times, but it was pretty sunk and I had a hard time catching anything. Today, I thought I'd give it a try again. Now that I've lost 30 lbs, it floats me fine and I found it easy to catch waves with it again. It turns and just surfs so much better than 10' Coreban. Also a friend suggested that I have all my pants taken in so I don't have to buy a bunch of new pants.
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: Admin on June 13, 2019, 02:33:34 AM
try as you might you don't lose just fat. If you work at it hard enough, it can be nearly all fat but there will be some lean body mass lost also.

True. I read that even body fat contains fluids and protein.  How much varies but it seems like 87% fat is the common # that is used.  Pure fat is 4,100 calories per pound vs ~3,500 for body fat.   
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: TallDude on July 30, 2019, 11:33:22 AM
It's been a steady 5 to 6 months now at 220 lbs and a size 36 waist. I finally bought new pants and a few new board shorts. I've found sugar-free vanilla ice cream is ok now and then. Finding more places that use Stevia as there sweetener in drinks. Definitely drinking more beer :D. Hasn't effected my weight.   
Title: Re: Sugar is sneaky bad....
Post by: pdxmike on July 30, 2019, 01:30:51 PM
I am over 70 pounds below what I was a couple of years ago.

That is remarkable.  When you think of body fat as storing ~ 3,500 calories per pound and your likely daily burn somewhere around 2500 (?) you were holding an extra 245,000 calories or 98 days of surplus energy in reserve.
That is impressive.


Admin's observation could lead to a new excuse, though (since people are catching on to the "I'm not fat, I'm just short for my weight" excuse):  "I'm not fat, I'm just ahead of schedule with my eating".