Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: bluemarlin04 on December 07, 2018, 11:39:16 AM
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I have a 12 x 24 x 5 SUP.
It has the 4 + 1 boxes setup. The tail is a double diamond.
I mostly ride it in San Diego at longer point break waves.
I have it set up as a single fin right now but previously had it as a quad fin.
When I had it as a quad fin it felt good going down the line but would not turn if i tried. It seemed that there was so much speed that any attempt at turning and you were bucked off cause of how fast it was going. Maybe cause I had too much fin? I was running large future black sticks with 80/20 rears.
Should I try 50/50 rear fins?
Should i try put a knubster and see if that helps with some release and drive? I keep hearing the knubster works and I bought both the 3 inch mini fin and guitar pick one from stand up paddle sports but haven't tried them. Do they help?
Anyone try these fins? https://www.trueames.com/collections/ryan-lovelace/products/lovelace-piggyback-quad
Maybe those with a knub?
Im not trying to do high performance surfing but at least a little turns. I like the speed a quad offers because the rail line is so long that having the two inside rails engaged seems to work best.
Thanks.
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Since you already have the nubster fin, install the fin to make the board a 5 fin setup. Then try it out and report back.
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I would try 50/50's on the rear. I don't think a nubster would help at all but that's just my opinion. Nubsters are just a gimmick to get you to buy them.
If it were me, I would just stay with the single fin.
What board are you riding? Got any pics?
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What size and type of single fin were you running? Lots of choices there.
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What size and type of single fin were you running? Lots of choices there.
Using the fcs flow 11 inch single fin. Had really good success with it. Good hold and neutral handling and surfed really big surf on it.
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Try a 2+1 setup with a 7” centre fin.
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I'm using a 9" FCS II Connect GF on my M-12'6 and am very happy with the speed and turning ability. I had it out yesterday in some thigh high peelers and was loving it.
https://www.surffcs.com/collections/water-sports-longboard/products/fcs-ii-connect-gf-longboard-fin?variant=7411505496125
I like the shape of the Flow but I would go with an 8" or 9", or even smaller with a 2+1 as A-10 suggested.
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I have a 12 x 24 x 5 SUP.
It has the 4 + 1 boxes setup. The tail is a double diamond.
I mostly ride it in San Diego at longer point break waves.
I have it set up as a single fin right now but previously had it as a quad fin.
When I had it as a quad fin it felt good going down the line but would not turn if i tried. It seemed that there was so much speed that any attempt at turning and you were bucked off cause of how fast it was going. Maybe cause I had too much fin? I was running large future black sticks with 80/20 rears.
Should I try 50/50 rear fins?
Should i try put a knubster and see if that helps with some release and drive? I keep hearing the knubster works and I bought both the 3 inch mini fin and guitar pick one from stand up paddle sports but haven't tried them. Do they help?
Anyone try these fins? https://www.trueames.com/collections/ryan-lovelace/products/lovelace-piggyback-quad
Maybe those with a knub?
Im not trying to do high performance surfing but at least a little turns. I like the speed a quad offers because the rail line is so long that having the two inside rails engaged seems to work best.
Thanks.
Hard to really tell what's going on without pics of the board and box layout...but, with a 24" width at wide point...sounds like the tail is going to be narrow...
If that's the case, the sidebiters may be too clustered if you are finding it difficult to turn in quad mode...or, they are too stiff and/or you have too much surface area...etc...
Adding one of my StubNubs isn't going to loosen it up or make it less "tracky" if that's indeed the case...
Small trailer fins in combo with a quad setup adds drive and will shorten the arc of a turn without any discernible downside..."nubsters" definitely help to arrest the drift that can happen on wide tailed boards with quads when transitioning rail to rail...while still maintaining the speed advantage that quads offer...etc...
As far as getting bucked off the board because you have too much speed...remember, that your paddle is the biggest fin on your board...it should be used as a governor for stability and control in that scenario...see top pic...
That said, fins do matter...
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,19462.0.html
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I found a similar effect with Quads on my 12' board.
I love quads and use them on EVERY board except my 12'er.
On the big PSH 12' gun I like to run a single large fin with one trailer on the face side of the wave.
Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin. The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.
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Many of the top big wave surfers on the planet ride quads on their go to guns...
Billy Kemper has won the Jaws contest 3X...he rides quads from Pyzel and Glenn Pang...
World Surf League: What was the model and dimensions of Billy's board?
Jon Pyzel: It's my Crazy Train Quad model and the dims are 10'5 x 20.75 x 3.63 the volume is 80 liters.
WSL: You mentioned it was a quad set up. In recent years a lot of big wave surfers have been using four fins. Can you tell us about the pros/cons of the quad setup?
Pyzel: It was a Future Fin quad. I make probably 95% of my big wave boards quads because they let you get the most speed and control in heavy situations. Quads tend to surf more "round" and less pivoty than a thruster setup, and that suits big waves really well.
http://www.worldsurfleague.com/posts/166224/behind-the-board-2015-peahi-challenge-pyzel
STRETCH GUN CONTEMPORARY, PROVEN QUAD GUN
In 2005, a young Anthony Tashnick paddled a 9’4” bat tail quad gun into surfing history by winning the prestigious Men Who Ride Mountains contest at Mavericks. The board that Stretch shaped him was unconventional. It was shorter, had a wider tail, different lines and most obviously had one fin too many compared to the rest of the field.
The publicity of Tazzy’s win on a Stretch quad gun lit fire to the already snowballing movement of the four-fin being led by Nathan Fletcher. The Stretch Gun had every surfer re-thinking their perspective on what was to be considered a performance quad. The January 2006 issue of Surfing Magazine announced Stretch as Shaper of the Year and highlighted his fin theories, big wave designs and evolution of surfing.
Fast forward over a decade later and the quad movement is as strong as ever. There’s no place where quads have really pushed the limits more so than into the big wave frontier. The Stretch Gun is four-fin that showed the surfing world that quads are here to stay.
http://www.stretchboards.com/boards/surfboards/stretch-gun/
Ian Walsh and the biggest barrel ever ridden in competition...
What more can you tell us about that thinner-railed 10'4", with the swallowtail?
That’s just more or less the Jaws gun. It's kind of Ian's board. It's a 10’4″ that’s about 4 inches thick, and I took the rails down a little bit. It's a 4 fin with the swallowtail on it.
https://www.surfer.com/blogs/design-forum/what-he-rode-ian-walsh-and-his-christenson-gun/
You could go on and on...they are proven...end of story...
Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin. The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.
I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...
Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...
Continentseven: What gear did you use?
I was using a 4.8m Fly and a 88L custom Jaws quad. I don’t really like to go bigger than 4.8 as it gets hard to handle at Jaws as so much wind sucks up the face of the wave.
https://www.continentseven.com/jason-polakow-interview/
Levi Siver at Jaws on a Quattro Cube 86 POV clip...
https://www.facebook.com/levi.siver/videos/369719130461571/UzpfSTE0MjAzNTEwODgxOTkzOTY6MjM3ODkzMDU4MjM0MTQzNw/
https://youtu.be/qMHGu1Ti9wk
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Weird posting glitch...below text got cut off before WSL link...
Many of the top big wave surfers on the planet ride quads on their go to guns...
Billy Kemper has won the Jaws contest 3X...he rides quads from Pyzel and Glenn Pang...
World Surf League: What was the model and dimensions of Billy's board?
Jon Pyzel: It's my Crazy Train Quad model and the dims are 10'5 x 20.75 x 3.63 the volume is 80 liters.
WSL: You mentioned it was a quad set up. In recent years a lot of big wave surfers have been using four fins. Can you tell us about the pros/cons of the quad setup?
Pyzel: It was a Future Fin quad. I make probably 95% of my big wave boards quads because they let you get the most speed and control in heavy situations. Quads tend to surf more "round" and less pivoty than a thruster setup, and that suits big waves really well.
http://www.worldsurfleague.com/posts/166224/behind-the-board-2015-peahi-challenge-pyzel
STRETCH GUN CONTEMPORARY, PROVEN QUAD GUN
In 2005, a young Anthony Tashnick paddled a 9’4” bat tail quad gun into surfing history by winning the prestigious Men Who Ride Mountains contest at Mavericks. The board that Stretch shaped him was unconventional. It was shorter, had a wider tail, different lines and most obviously had one fin too many compared to the rest of the field.
The publicity of Tazzy’s win on a Stretch quad gun lit fire to the already snowballing movement of the four-fin being led by Nathan Fletcher. The Stretch Gun had every surfer re-thinking their perspective on what was to be considered a performance quad. The January 2006 issue of Surfing Magazine announced Stretch as Shaper of the Year and highlighted his fin theories, big wave designs and evolution of surfing.
Fast forward over a decade later and the quad movement is as strong as ever. There’s no place where quads have really pushed the limits more so than into the big wave frontier. The Stretch Gun is four-fin that showed the surfing world that quads are here to stay.
http://www.stretchboards.com/boards/surfboards/stretch-gun/
Ian Walsh and the biggest barrel ever ridden in competition...
What more can you tell us about that thinner-railed 10'4", with the swallowtail?
That’s just more or less the Jaws gun. It's kind of Ian's board. It's a 10’4″ that’s about 4 inches thick, and I took the rails down a little bit. It's a 4 fin with the swallowtail on it.
https://www.surfer.com/blogs/design-forum/what-he-rode-ian-walsh-and-his-christenson-gun/
You could go on and on...they are proven...end of story...
Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin. The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.
I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...
Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...
Continentseven: What gear did you use?
I was using a 4.8m Fly and a 88L custom Jaws quad. I don’t really like to go bigger than 4.8 as it gets hard to handle at Jaws as so much wind sucks up the face of the wave.
https://www.continentseven.com/jason-polakow-interview/
Levi Siver at Jaws on a Quattro Cube 86 POV clip...
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They sure do. Many use the McKee placement where the rears are close together.
Huge waves a whole universe into itself!
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I feel like an idiot.
Was supposed to say 34 wide not 24 wide.
So I think the rears being 80/20 foil definitely did not help the situation along with them being the largest quad fins made.
Going to try get some smaller quad fins and run a trailer with it as well.
Is single fins faster? I’ve read they are because the least amount of drag but quads feel faster.
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I did a search and found this.
"The single fin is great for holding a line but it doesn’t generate speed as easily as perhaps a twin fin, thruster, or quad. You have to take more of the energy that the wave gives you. Some people get on a single fin for the first time wonder why they can’t get up and make sections. Single fins are very fast once you get going but you’d have to take what the wave gives you and have less ability to generate your own speed."
http://comparesurfboards.com/learn/surfboard-fin-setups-pros-cons-single-twin-thruster-quad
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34" is extremely wide. That extra width is going to slow you down a lot. You need to get your back foot all the way back on the tail to get as much board out of the water as possible. That should make it turn a lot easier and also speed up the board if the wave is steep enough.
Blane Chambers has some good tips in this video.
https://vimeo.com/13815132
12' x 34" x 5" is a huge board to be surfing. It must be close to 300 liters. I'd love to see some photos of the shape.
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I feel like an idiot.
Was supposed to say 34 wide not 24 wide.
Aloha bluemarlin04,
So, now we are diagnosing quite a different animal...;-)
No worries...we build and fin up surfing SUPs bigger than this all of the time...
We built the 11'11" x 33" x 5" One World Surfari shown below and it came in at 226.16 liters...this same model at your dims is 234.62 liters...nowhere close to the 300+ liter SUPs that we also build...
https://blog.surfingsports.com/2018/09/big-hammer-sups.html
We definitely need to see pics of the board...would also like to know it's volume and your weight...
From your description of the problem that you are having with it being "tracky" with quad fins...not being able to turn it at speed without getting bucked off...etc...it's got me thinking that perhaps the sidebiters could be parallel to the center box and not toed-in towards the nose...
There is an optimal fin set up for every board and rider style/preference...so, I need the additional bits of info to plug into the equation to help solve it...
Also, most people seem to recommend fins simply by stating vertical depth without mentioning surface area, planform, aspect ratio, materials/construction, flex characteristics, foils...etc...all of which are important parameters of a fin's performance...
My 9.25" FreeWeed design works very well on bigger boards...wide base for positive grip...progressive flex in the tip area...lots of surface area...used as a single or in conjunction with smaller front sidebiters...
https://youtu.be/sGFLWVGmAqU
Of course, there's usually more than one way to skin a cat...so, there could be a quad fin (or quad +nub) solution to your problem...;-)
https://supsports.com/sup-fins
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Hi SUP SPORT
The board feels small to me. I’m close to 250 lbs. I use it to surf far out to sea on an outer reef so need to length to get me there.
I swapped out the rear fins to a softer template and put in your 3 inch mini fin in the 10 inch box. Going to see how that feels.
I suspect it was the size of my fins. I was running future blacksticks LARGE with LARGE rears with an 80/20 foil.
After reading around it seems the rear foil really plays a big factor.
I might possibly try the thruster setup because of the pivot point it offers.
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Aloha bluemarlin04,
Sounds like you are gonna get it dialed...
Make sure that you push that 3.19" StubNub all the way back in the box...then, it only engages when you need it...
Big Will (6'5" 265#) uses my 4"/5" quad set with it on my 10'3" x 33" 185 liter Mahalo X-Wide model (19" tail)...and, he loads them up and cranks the bejeezus out of them...;-)
We built Matt (BIG guy...great surfer) a custom 10'6" x 33.5" Mahalo X-Wide version at 220 liters...and, he rides it as a pure quad...
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Many of the top big wave surfers on the planet ride quads on their go to guns...
Billy Kemper has won the Jaws contest 3X...he rides quads from Pyzel and Glenn Pang...
World Surf League: What was the model and dimensions of Billy's board?
Jon Pyzel: It's my Crazy Train Quad model and the dims are 10'5 x 20.75 x 3.63 the volume is 80 liters.
10' 6" is NOT 12'. Totally different animal.
As I mentioned I ride all my boards as Quads up to 10' 6". But the 12' PSH gun is nothing like any of the examples you are showing. 10' 6" are slower and can not attain the speed of a 12' board.
There are NO big wave riders paddling with 12' boards. When riding a 10' 6" they take off steeper, deeper and can get much more performance out of their boards.
I am going for the easy in. On a 12' board you build up massive takeoff speed and just glide into waves that are otherwise uncatchable. There is no way a 10' 6" board can catch waves where I am catching them at Mavericks. I know I have tried with a tiny 10' 6" - no dice. It's my own little secret spot. But all this requires good board speed and low drag. Fewer fins, a single center fin, results in the lowest drag. All those extra fins are like extra tail feathers adding stability by inducing drag. Treat the 12' like a race board and keep it simple and clean. Easy in applies to big and small waves alike.
Try the single fin.
This is what 'Easy in' looks like on a 12' board.
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I overestimated a bit when I said 12' x 34" x 5" might be 300 liters. By the time I realized my mistake, it was too late to go back and edit it out.
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Quote
Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin. The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.
I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...
Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...
I would agree with Beasho that single fins are faster for windsurfing. You use a quad because it turns on a dime and feels great on the wave, not all out speed.
JP
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Here is the detailed story..
http://www.mckeesurf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/quad_nitty_gritty.doc
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Quote
Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin. The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.
I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...
Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...
I would agree with Beasho that single fins are faster for windsurfing. You use a quad because it turns on a dime and feels great on the wave, not all out speed.
JP
Quad fins are very "fast" for wavesailing big waves...as are tri-fins...and, singles...but, it's not a race...;-)
The speeds that we obtain wavesailing with any fin setup, leaves other boards in the dust...you are never going to be going slow on a big wave when powered by a sail...so, no matter what...you are going to be going "fast"...;-)
The reason that quads are being used in ginormous surf is because they sit lower in the water and give more grip on big bottom turns...and, they turn great...;-)
https://youtu.be/SdSpbrGZsPE
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The trend in big wave paddle-in surfing is shorter and quad...the prone paddle-in guys are taking off right under the lip...not way out on the shoulder...
On many big wave ledges there really is no advantage to try to catch the wave way outside before it breaks...it breaks where it breaks...and, it requires split second decision making and wave judgement...
They are generating plenty of speed on their quad guns while increasing positioning and maneuverability on the wave face...
2014: At the inaugural ASP Big Wave Tour event held at Pico Alto, Peru, 99% of all competitors ride four-fin gun designs. Photo: Robbo/ASP
https://www.surfline.com/surf-news/visual-history-surfboard-fins/25660
The paddle-in guns of today, ridden by the elite surfers in waves like Maverick’s, Waimea Bay and Todos Santos, are usually in the normally in the 9 to11-foot range.
“My board is 11’ 3”, four inches thick and has been glassed twice to make it extra heavy,” said Shane Dorian on the board he rode at Portugal’s infamous Nazaré in 2013. Shane rides quad fins, although some surfers, like the Long brothers, Greg and Rusty, prefer three fins.
https://mpora.com/surfing/kit-need-big-wave-surfing
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Try the single fin.
This is what 'Easy in' looks like on a 12' board.
I think I may stick with the single. Rode the quad today and it just doesn’t react the way it did when I rode the single fin. The single was very fast and gave me the exact neutral reaction I needed when I surfed it in big surf.
The board in double overhead surf feels right. Catches way outside and there isn’t a top speed.
I think you’re right and am going to stick with the single fin.
The 11 inch seems big but the board is 12 ft and has a full belly to performance concaves.
The single fin offers the earliest entry into the wave and the best reaction.
I can tell that waves are easier to catch on a single fin than with multiple fins.
Funny you mention it because while researching I found Parmenters article about single fins and an article about single fin Mavericks guns he would shape and also single fin Mavericks guns Jeff Clark rode
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Form my direct observations...in the several decades that I have been involved in fin and board design...more often than not, a rider's fin decision is ultimately driven by personal preference and biases...thus, the multitudes of choices...
For the record, Jeff Clarke was an early proponent of quad fin guns at Mavericks...and, Parmenter is perhaps best known for his Widowmaker (2 + 1) guns...as well as his flip flops after publishing long winded diatribes about commercialization of surfing...foreign imports of surfboards and how it's decimated the US surfboard industry...and, an apology for ever being involved in the SUP industry...etc...
Again, when it comes to the best big wave surfers in the world choosing equipment to paddle into the planet's biggest waves...the fact remains that they overwhelmingly choose quad fin guns...they have become the standard...nearly every rider in some contests utilizes them...and, they don't make that life threatening choice because they are slower...especially, paddling in at open ocean reef breaks like Cortes Bank...etc...
Chris Christenson makes big wave paddle-in guns for many of the top guys...including Greg Long, John John Florence, Mark Healey, Nathan Florence (JJF's bro), Billy Kemper...etc...guys that are consistently winning the big wave surfing contests around the world...
https://www.surfer.com/blogs/design-forum/shaped-by-waves/#7c975f060d
What strengths do you feel like are unique to the design?
It has a real crazy beak nose on it because it carries the thickness all the way up into the nose. Pyzel had to shave a bit off from the nose, because it's so thick up there, and I think that makes it when you're paddling that you get on this plane when you get to a certain speed or when you're paddling for a wave. The board is just going. You can't really stop it once it starts. It gets this crazy momentum because of that thickness in the front.
[We then hit up Jon Pyzel for the design details, conditions best suited for the board, and more.]
What shape is Nathan on in the photo?
Nathan was riding a 10'4" x 20.75 x 3.63 quad called the Padillac.
What’s the background on this particular shape?
It’s a board that I developed with Mark Healey's feedback and have been refining for the past five years; he actually came up with the name, because it paddles so fast. Since then, Mark went on to win the XXL Paddle-In Wave Of The Winter, John won the Eddie, and Billy Kemper won the Jaws event two years in a row- all on the Padillac.
https://www.pyzelsurf.com.au/blog/john-johns-eddie-aikau-board/
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SUP Sports- thanks for the encouragement. I feel determined to get this quad worked out and dialed on this board.
I’ll keep trying. I think I had too big of fins and by putting smaller fins without the foil I will have a better feel for it.
I think with so much rail engaged on a board that large if I just put smaller quad fins it’ll hold much better.
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Aloha bluemarlin04,
Agree...sounds like symptoms of being over-finned...combo of too much surface area and stiffness...I still think that there is a quad solution for your board...
I design my side fins with flex in the tips and fast foils...and, comparatively under-finned on my wave riding SUPs compared to most guy's fin setups on their prone boards...
They are essential for the offshore reef breaks that I surf, that are totally choked off with kelp...so, singles are a non-starter at these spots...
I'm definitely not against singles...I grew up surfing singles in the Free Ride days...snapped a triple stringer Diffenderfer in Humboldt...but, still have my beloved Brewer gun that I rode on the North Shore, Hanalei, Humboldt, and Puerto...etc...hanging in my shop...and, have manufactured 1000's of my single fin designs...SUP and windsurfing...had a couple of the top guys in the world using them...Kevin Pritchard...Zane Schweitzer...etc...
I also have extensive quivers of single fin wave riding sailboards...but, also tri-fins and quad...so, not stuck with any one design dogma...
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Experiment, experiment, experiment---try others ideas and don't be afraid to mix and match fin sizes and fin designs. All boards / fin combinations are not the same coupled with the minute by minute changing waves conditions. I have done all the above and have found combinations that defy the experts. Remember much of what is sold today are pushed by pros who can perform on anything anywhere. Us motals can not ! we can find what works best for us if we dare to ! To hell with trends !
Fins are costly, It's fun to make some of your own if your into that ! Or looks for used ones the others want to give away because the didn't give then enough time in water. Riding quads on any board takes time to adjust as do thrusters.
My search has lead me to use fins the work best in 80% of the conditions. The other 20% of the time I do change out for known exspected performance I think I will need ! doesn't always work out that way Head scratching time
"then again "I think I will then I think I won't then Think I do and I think I don'"t some days are just confusing !
Ive seen good surfers/sup guys ride boards and rip with two different side fins, twins singles of all sizes and no fins !Google Pat Curren theory on small fins in large surf.
I ride a 12 ft PSH gun and love it with differnet fin set ups
I guess sometimes, it comes down to what is in ones skill level ! some days are better than others
Good luck on your hunt !
paddle on !
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Hi
I am new to surfing a quad. Only the past few months. I know that quads behave differently in the surf.......the question I am interested in is do you surf them differently? Wondering if this might also shed some light on the original post?
Cheers
Bob
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I shortboard quads and thrusters.
Quads do ride differently. They won’t go vertical like a thruster and have more drawn out turns.
I really like how thruster shortboards ride. You have the control.
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I like quads because they let me do deep laid out super fast down the line turns which is more my style of riding as opposed to vertical off the lip slashes. Quads vs Thruster to me is like what Giant Slalom is compared to Half Pipe.
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I like quads because they are fast out of the gate...and, go even faster with rider response...also, because you can do mid-face turns and have the confidence of the grab from two inside sidebiters...great performance in hollow waves...they suck in closer to the face...etc...
They also feel like an extension of the twin-fins that I rode as a kid...my surfboard quiver is split between thruster and quad...but, I also rode Bonzers and even a 5 fin...long before quads became a thang...