Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: SURFFOILS on December 05, 2018, 02:24:38 PM

Title: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SURFFOILS on December 05, 2018, 02:24:38 PM
 itís always interesting to see what computer guys who surf come up with.

https://www.javelin-tech.com/blog/2017/08/3d-printed-hydrofoil-project-intro/

Has anyone else tried printing a foil ?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 05, 2018, 06:47:04 PM
SUPUK printed a form for his wing and glassed over it. Came out great. Check out the DIY foil thread. Itís all in there. Iíd love to do it but I just havenít had the time to focus on designing it. I canít even get the time to take Kiwi up on his offer of cad help. Thatís bad. lol

I have a buddy with a printer ready to go when I have a file. I need to start an open swap for surf CAD files somewhere on the web. The fin and template guys started that but I think itís fallen by the wayside. Itís not hard to build these things really, especially if you can print or CNC the parts. Once some of us home guys get things dialed I think DIY will be a real thing.

Hey Pono. Could you glowforge cut us some ribs so we can all do the SUPpeter method?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: opie on December 06, 2018, 07:50:58 AM
  I need to start an open swap for surf CAD files somewhere on the web. 

Why not just use Thingiverse?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 06, 2018, 01:35:43 PM
3D printing is a natural for foils if you have a big enough bed, or use a modular design. Wing sections could be made largely hollow with internal reinforcement.

And yes, cutting ribs with the glowforge would be simple, but it's in the wrong state until spring.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 06, 2018, 08:58:19 PM
Yeah Pono my lead developer has one that will print up to like 16Ē x 9Ē or so. 3 parts and youíve got a wing.

Opie, we could totally start with thingverse but I have to say that curation is something I really appreciate. Itís hard to search and remember to search. Maybe we should start a thread in the shape shack collecting some good ones. Iíll do that. Thereís our curated collection, right?

Actually, Admin, thereís your next project. Letís add a file sharing area for all these bits and bobs we are all designing. Templates, fins, cad files, all the stuff that swaylocks should have really grown to hold and share.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 06, 2018, 10:15:01 PM
I think the fundamental design of foils and foil masts is wrong. The structural and aero elements don't need to be combined and if they are, the complexity increases and strength is compromised. A boxed structure is the strongest/simplest/lightest way to build the structural component of both mast and wings. The flow elements can add to that. Skeleton and musculature.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Admin on December 07, 2018, 11:07:52 AM
Yeah Pono my lead developer has one that will print up to like 16Ē x 9Ē or so. 3 parts and youíve got a wing.

Opie, we could totally start with thingverse but I have to say that curation is something I really appreciate. Itís hard to search and remember to search. Maybe we should start a thread in the shape shack collecting some good ones. Iíll do that. Thereís our curated collection, right?

Actually, Admin, thereís your next project. Letís add a file sharing area for all these bits and bobs we are all designing. Templates, fins, cad files, all the stuff that swaylocks should have really grown to hold and share.

How big are the files?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: jrandy on December 07, 2018, 06:40:20 PM
How big are the files?

A small fin STL file would be 300KB
A finbox STL file 600KB
A large dihedral foil 4.5 MB STL file per side
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 07, 2018, 09:11:20 PM
Pono, letís pull that thread. Are you saying that, for example, a mast should have a strong square tube center (or multiple tubes) and then a soft aerodynamic fairing maybe 3d printed or light fiberglass shell?

If so, whatís your proposed size for that to get the strength? I could see 3-4 1/2Ē square tubes being a mast but I canít see that being stronger than the current aluminum masts unless it was way thicker than they are now. Now, could a mast be an inch thick? Iíd like to know because then weíre getting to where we could have some real structural integrity. A 1Ē square, heavy walled aluminum square tube welded to a base plate would be damn hard to bend.

Now... where the number of my buddy with the machine shop? Iíve really been ignoring those race car builder friends for too long apparently. ;)
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Admin on December 08, 2018, 01:27:57 AM
How big are the files?

A small fin STL file would be 300KB
A finbox STL file 600KB
A large dihedral foil 4.5 MB STL file per side

Please list the file extensions that are used.  Is it limited to .stl or are there others?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SURFFOILS on December 08, 2018, 02:41:56 AM
Pono, letís pull that thread. Are you saying that, for example, a mast should have a strong square tube center (or multiple tubes) and then a soft aerodynamic fairing maybe 3d printed or light fiberglass shell

If so, whatís your proposed size for that to get the strength? I could see 3-4 1/2Ē square tubes being a mast but I canít see that being stronger than the current aluminum masts unless it was way thicker than they are now. Now, could a mast be an inch thick? Iíd like to know because then weíre getting to where we could have some real structural integrity. A 1Ē square, heavy walled aluminum square tube welded to a base plate would be damn hard to bend.

Now... where the number of my buddy with the machine shop? Iíve really been ignoring those race car builder friends for too long apparently. ;)


A 1 inch thick mast isnít going to create a greater -ve difference in performance if itís short enough. And in fact a thicker section has a lot of low speed and AOA advantages. And the height above the water is really for Ďmedia showí and not performance. In fact  being closer to the water allows the rails to be used in high speed turns that arenít yet part of foiling but soon will be.
Gee I hope in a year or two when everyone is low level foiling and dipping the surface for drag they remember these posts of mine,
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: jrandy on December 08, 2018, 05:39:44 AM
How big are the files?

A small fin STL file would be 300KB
A finbox STL file 600KB
A large dihedral foil 4.5 MB STL file per side

Please list the file extensions that are used.  Is it limited to .stl or are there others?

Hi Admin-

I appreciate you looking into this.

For STL files the .stl extention is prevalent and most every front end for 3D printing takes them. There are other mesh files but i do not use them.

If you wanted to allow people to exchange actual surfboard/SUP files (small file sizes 2-10 KB) then you would need .brd , .s3d*  and .pdb to cover programs like AKU, BoardCAD, Shape3D (there are 3 or 4 file types all starting .s3d... ), and Precision Shaper.

Sharing CAD files rather than STL usually results in smaller file sizes, especially for larger parts like a wing or mast or fuselage...but also a larger list of file extensions.  In my workaday world the most common are STEP (.stp or .step) for 3D and DWG and DXF (.dwg and .dxf) for 2D.  Most CAD programs have the ability to generate something like STEP or DXF that is more 'neutral' than its native format.

The list would get very long including every possible mesh or CAD format.  But I think the ones above would easily cover the majority.

If someone sees a hole in these lists please post up.

The nice thing about sharing board and CAD files is that the end user can make modifications easily. Edits to STL files are possible but more time consuming and less repeatable aka 'artsy' in my opinion.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Admin on December 08, 2018, 09:50:32 AM
OK, I enabled all of those except .s3d*.  I cannot use the wildcard so if you have specific extensions we can enter those.  Here is a thread to get started:  https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=34308.msg390117#msg390117
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: jrandy on December 08, 2018, 11:55:42 AM
Awesome, thanks Admin.

Specific extensions recognized by Shape3D:

.s3d and .s3dx (Shape3D, the 'x' one is the current format)
.brd (Aku, BoardCAD)
.srf (SurfCAD)
.phb (Precision)
.kms (KMS3200)
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Admin on December 08, 2018, 04:43:46 PM
Great,  those are all active now.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 08, 2018, 11:09:28 PM
Thx! Fusion360 too?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Admin on December 09, 2018, 12:47:09 AM
Sure, what are the extensions?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 09, 2018, 10:12:35 AM
Pono, letís pull that thread. Are you saying that, for example, a mast should have a strong square tube center (or multiple tubes) and then a soft aerodynamic fairing maybe 3d printed or light fiberglass shell?

If so, whatís your proposed size for that to get the strength? I could see 3-4 1/2Ē square tubes being a mast but I canít see that being stronger than the current aluminum masts unless it was way thicker than they are now. Now, could a mast be an inch thick? Iíd like to know because then weíre getting to where we could have some real structural integrity. A 1Ē square, heavy walled aluminum square tube welded to a base plate would be damn hard to bend.

Now... where the number of my buddy with the machine shop? Iíve really been ignoring those race car builder friends for too long apparently. ;)

No, it doesn't need to be tubing. I started fooling around last spring with mold to make parts like this. The "tube" can be molded as a long U shaped element with a flange, cut to length and glued face to face, either with internal bracing or without if the walls are thick enough. The wing center section can be likewise molded, but the elements won't be identical, the bottom of the wing would be flat or cambered. The leading and trailing elements can be cast either as hard plastic or firm urethane and can be swapped out to change the chord or the foil coefficient.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.ponostyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/IMG_2964.jpg?resize=768%2C1024&ssl=1)

Wingtips are molded or cast and plug into the ends.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 09, 2018, 04:26:55 PM
Got it.

Iíve been thinking of molding one. Laying in some 1/4Ē wood or foam strips inside and wrapping carbon over them would create small U shapes out of carbon to strengthen things up. I totally agree with the leading and trailing edges being printed or molded. Seems to make total sense.

Speaking of this stuff, what do folks use to glue up molded pieces like 2 halves of a mast?
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 09, 2018, 06:59:33 PM
Strongest is heat-curable single component epoxy but there are two-part epoxies that are strong enough.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 11, 2018, 04:28:38 AM
I played with CAD design for foils with the hope of getting at least half a wing printed and then putting both halves together.  After deciding to instead use a carbon cord internal skeleton which was not possible with 3D printing, I dropped the project.   Boneless Wings or masts will be at risk for delamination due to the flexion of components under great stress.  The bonds between layers and between foam and glass and carbon weaken over time.  Having both an internal and external skeleton locks all layers together creating a stronger, albeit less flexible, wing.  My next wing is near 41 inches wide to be used in both surf and on downwinders.  Rugged is good!
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 11, 2018, 08:52:15 PM
Peter, I still canít grasp how youíre mounting these to the fuselage. Iíd love it if youíd be so kind as to update your thread or start one on this.

I think that printing the ribs could work well and CNC or laser cutting them would be so fast itís a no brainer.

Iím having doubts that my wing made of 9 layers of glass and then 4 layers of 6 Oz carbon as a patch around the bolt holes wonít just break when itís flexed from the ends. I need to test but Iím still not sure how these things take the stresses without being basically solid carbon. More will be revealed Iím sure.

Canít wait to see your next wing but please give us more detail on the mount point if you would.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 13, 2018, 04:34:01 AM
Sorry, Just saw this..  I will try to get you some pics.  Describing it alone would prove too difficult.  Hopefully I can do this soon as I am very busy as of late.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 13, 2018, 06:40:02 PM
I feel ya man. Iím averaging 15 min a week on my project lol.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 17, 2018, 12:56:55 PM
I'm embarrassed to say I am having much difficulty in posting images of any quality in order to assist you in understanding how my wings and fuselage are constructed and how they fit together.  I am tempted to just text them to you or message them to you on FB.  I will keep trying but do not hold your breath.  If you have any suggestions that even an idiot can understand I will gladly accept them.  My image files on my iPhone are greater than the 1000KB limit.  I try cropping them till they are accepted but then you literally do not get the full picture.  I am obviously missing something and it is  probably very simple but my mind is simpler. 
Thanks for your patience, and I know there is an answer to this problem.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 17, 2018, 07:04:48 PM
Before I converted one of my websites to SSL I was posting pictures to Facebook and then posting them here. I still do it for anything I want to post both places. I copy/paste the text as well as the pictures. Facebook pictures are easy to post--their uploader works very well, surprise, surprise-- and all of Facebook is SSL which makes the zone software happy. Just post your pictures to FB (in a private post if you like), then after you click "share" pop your pictures up full size. Left click and select "copy picture location". Then paste that to your post on the zone. Highlight the URL that gets pasted, click on the "insert image" icon and it will surround your image with [  img][  /img] without the spaces that I added to break the forum code parsing. And you're done. Here's a sample of what a facebook picture URL looks like:

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48358126_10156174900393668_4567620719122317312_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=bc0ea7564a9a7434b2a7f3c5b57e4422&oe=5CD62D1B

And how it looks with the image thingies around it (with spaces)
[  img]https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48358126_10156174900393668_4567620719122317312_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=bc0ea7564a9a7434b2a7f3c5b57e4422&oe=5CD62D1B[  /img]

and how it looks when you don't have spaces:

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48358126_10156174900393668_4567620719122317312_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=bc0ea7564a9a7434b2a7f3c5b57e4422&oe=5CD62D1B)
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 18, 2018, 09:52:37 AM
I'm embarrassed to say I am having much difficulty in posting images of any quality in order to assist you in understanding how my wings and fuselage are constructed and how they fit together.  I am tempted to just text them to you or message them to you on FB.  I will keep trying but do not hold your breath.  If you have any suggestions that even an idiot can understand I will gladly accept them.  My image files on my iPhone are greater than the 1000KB limit.  I try cropping them till they are accepted but then you literally do not get the full picture.  I am obviously missing something and it is  probably very simple but my mind is simpler. 
Thanks for your patience, and I know there is an answer to this problem.
Not sure if it will be of any help, but any image hosting site will accommodate your picture sharing, and all are really pretty to use.

I happen to now use Imgur (https://imgur.com/) in which I simply make a album of whatever category I'll be sharing my pics in (I post on other forums of different topics), load them into it, and then use their simple "Get Share Links" button to open a screen that has "BBCode (Forums)" in it...
(https://i.imgur.com/rYJkqIe.png?1)
... then just copy it there, and paste it here.

You can also very easily edit your images to size, and/or crop them to fit the smaller screens some are viewing on, so as they don't have to scroll around the image to see all of it in the native file sizes it was originally saved at....
(https://i.imgur.com/nun2LnE.jpg?1)
...all with just a couple keystrokes, and in a few minutes.

Good luck, and hope to soon see your wings and fuselage construction and fit.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:10:47 PM
Here we go again
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:15:44 PM
Ok! Im sure not going to remember how I just got that picture to load so bear with me.

This is a completely laced wing .  Epoxy is fully cured and each cord is 48K carbon tow.  (24 K x 2.)  The process is well described in the DIY foil section. The wing at this point is stiff but not yet strong enough.  There is a little flex and with too much force the cords will just rip through the ply.  But , yet, it is surprisingly strong.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:30:02 PM
Picture 2

I then create carbon tube using 24K carbon tow by wrapping resin infused tow around a well waxed fuselage insert.  All directions must be applied.  longitudinal, diagonal, Ö..all direction until it is about 1/8" thick.  Let cure.  Place cured tube in vise and hammer out insert.  Mark exactly how insert and tube go together just in case your fuselage is not symmetrical.  My fuselage is 100% carbon.  I then make 1 longitudinal cut in the tube from end to end to open it up a bit and allow the fuselage insert to fit in easier.  I then placed 3 dimes in the cut , one at each end and one in the middle to help open up the tube just a little more.  Now the fuselage should slide in fairly easily.  Wet out some more 24 K tow and wrap another 1/8 inch around the portions of the tube where there are no dimes.  This will lock in the expanded tube size.  let cure.  Later take out the dimes and finnish the wrap.  Tube is done.  You will then go back to your wing and cut out the center rib/template and enough rigid carbon cord to fit the tube in to the wing.  Epoxy in place with dabs of high strength filler.  Make certain the fuselage , tube  and wing are in proper alignment before locking in position of tube.


Pleas disregard the use of microballoon filler throughout this wing.  This is an early wing.  I then realized that it need not be that strong and I could make it much lighter.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:37:11 PM
With the tube epoxied in place I then mix some epoxy with micro balloons and milled fiber  and fill the remaining portion of the well between the remaining ribs.  This strongly locks in the tube and prevents any flex or movement of the insert tube.  The lightweight fill surrounds the tube to the full thickness of the wing only in the very center of the wing.  As you can see I use 2 part expanding polyurethane to fill the rest of the wing except for the wing tips where again I use epoxy, milled fibers and micro balloons. 
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:51:26 PM
Here is another picture of the fill process.  2 part polyurethane foam( SecureSet, fence post foam 6 lb density I think)  After all is filled and faired with microballoons I then vacuum bag 2-3 layers of 6 oz glass with resin pigmented black.  Since I only use one layer of 3K carbon twill to finish I wish not to see the white fill and glass underneath.  The wing is strong enough with just the glass but the extra layer of carbon is even stronger and definitely looks better. 
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 02:53:40 PM
I only use one bolt to hold the wing the fuselage.  It fits into a stainless nut place into the very end of the fuselage insert.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 03:00:35 PM
Here is where it gets interesting.  I not only use the square tube insert of the fuselage to provide stiffness and rigidity in the wing but also use an additional insert above to further decrease wing movement in relation to the fuselage.  This need not be done in the vertical orientation that I have used but can also be accomplished horizontally if one desired.  Again, my fuselage is almost entirely carbon made from many wraps and layers of 24K tow.  Adding this extra support makes the system very strong and even better, it is very easy to change wings as I do not need to hammer the one wing off before putting a new one on.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 03:02:44 PM
Here is the wing and the  extra carbon 3K twill( 3-4 layers) I vacuum bagged onto finished wing and fuselage.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 18, 2018, 03:08:44 PM
Here it is again,  you can still see the release agent on the nose.  I have not yet had any trouble with this system but time will tell.  Once I finish my 41 inch wing, I may be singing a different tune.  I feel the extra strength of the laced wing combined with the high strength filler around insertion point and the glass and carbon skin will definitely handle the extra stress involved with large wings.  I will however be using 2 layers, maybe 3, of 3K carbon twill on the largest wing... All else should remain the same.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: Newps on December 18, 2018, 03:09:54 PM
Very nice, that is a slick setup.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 19, 2018, 02:56:06 AM
SUPeter, thank you so much. This is a fascinating technique.

Ok, questions.

First, can you clarify your layup? You mention 3 layers of glass and then one layer of carbon in the first shot that talks about layup but then later reference 3-4 layers of carbon. Iím assuming more carbon for larger wings?

Second, the hardest thing for me was figuring out how to drill a hole perfectly aligned with the internal nuts in my fuselage. Itís easy for the first wing as you drill through it all and insert the nut. But once you have a fuselage and make a wing over it in carbon you can see to drill the matching hole. How do you accomplish this alignment?

Third, clarifying that you build the initial wing structure and let it cure. You build your fuse insert as you explain. And then you cut out the center rib and carbon struts just enough to seat the insert, yes?

I was wondering about making the center with two ribs spaced just wide enough for the fuse insert. Then you could just cut or bend the carbon tow struts enough to insert it in between? Not sure if thatís easier or not but it seems like it might be.

This also lays out your wing covering much better. So by the time youíre covering the wing itís really got a decently filled out and sanded profile to lay glass on, correct?

I notice in the well lit shots that there are some sort of rounded bumps or corners in the leading edge. Iím assuming that this is from the ribs sort of making a corner once sanded. Iím assuming thereís no real performance hit from this?

Could you give us some more weíll lit shots of the finished wing at different angles? I canít quite make out the smoothness of the profile of the final product and I think a lot of folks are overthinking that. I donít believe it has to be perfectly shaped into a smooth radius from what Iíve seen in my research.

This is a game changer I really think. I have to try to get some tow and experiment with this. Really original thinking man.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SURFFOILS on December 19, 2018, 04:10:38 AM
SUPeter, Iíve made surfboards since the mid 70ís and Iíve never seen such a comprehensive build of any surfcraft or component like yours. Sure thereís the cardboard  surfboards and crazy designs but your internal carbon struts are amazing. Congratulations on you ingenuity and dedication.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 05:42:15 AM
Here it goes.  Ill answer questions in order.
1)  First there are 2-3 layers of vacuumed 6 oz glass over a fully faired (mico balloons and epoxy) wing.  Sand glass to final shape filling if needed, but it has to be perfect.    Then 1-2 layers of 3K carbon twill on wings of the IWA size and smaller.  On larger wings, say 41 " wide I plan on going 2-3 layers of 3K carbon twill.  I really do not worry too much about fiber orientation with the carbon.  I will on the larger wing.


2)About drilling the hole with perfect alignment to the internal nut.  Well I repurpose a cardiac surgical instrument( Medtronic Octopus)  .Look it up!  I will send photo.  I'm sure it can be done with a movable jig that is firmly attached to the fuselage.  If I find my stash of these I can try to send you all one. 

3) I simply use a hacksaw or reciprocating blade to cut a channel a little wider than the tube you are inserting. You do not want the cords pressing on the tube causing misalignment of the tube in the wing.  Use a very thick filler to bridge the gap between tube and cords.

4) Again, the 6 oz fiberglass layers are put over a perfectly faired and shaped wing.  Then the galss is further sanded to a finished form.  All this before final layers of mainely cosmetic carbon. 

5)  Yes my leading edges are angular(slightly).  I do not believe it affects performance but then again, testing would be required to determine this.  It does make sanding easier since individual  segments are on the same plane.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 05:50:13 AM
By the way.  Do I feel that wings need to be shaped to absolute perfection?  Hell no.  I actually think small imperfections are better at keeping the boundry layer smaller, decreasing vortice formation.  This may be why I hear GoFoils hum and whistle and mine are silent.  I may never know for certain but its just a hunch.  As far as a final finish,  I put a fill coat over the final vacuum bagged carbon.  I then use a cabinet scraper to take down all the proud spots and ridges.  After this I wet sand in the direction of flow (400 grit).  After this I then do what I call a "rub off".   I put a dab of resin on a section and rub it in with  gloved fingers and the I use a clean dry cloth to rub it off until dry.   It deepens the carbon look and smooths it just a little more. 
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 06:03:39 AM
I hope this works. 

This flexible arm is clamped to the fuselage and is able to be locked in place by turning the butterfly at the end.  I have an epoxy block at the end whit a hole that accepts a long drill bit to assure block lines up precisely with nut in fuselage.  I then take out the bit, put the wing on, reinsert the bit and now I know exactly where to drill to find the nut.  Im sure something else could be fashioned which holds the drill bit in a proper position while the wing is both off and on. 
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 06:04:51 AM
Here is another shot
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 06:05:50 AM
And another.  Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 06:11:39 AM
PS - Please do not show these pics to my wife.  This is what I do when the shop is too cold and she is not home.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 08:07:42 AM
Almost forgot the important part.  Thank you PonoBill for telling me to first download pics to Facebook.  That did it!
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 08:10:58 AM
Oops! wrong button
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: PonoBill on December 19, 2018, 09:31:24 AM
That's quite a jig. There is a way without any cardiac surgery equipment: Make a drilling jig that can be precisely installed each time to drill the first hole. That includes the hole for the fuselage. That's a common cabinetry and metalwork problem. It seems like every project I do there comes a point where progress has to stop while I make a jig to drill repeated holes where the hole needs to align to a blind hole.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: eastbound on December 19, 2018, 09:31:36 AM
what surfoils said! no dog in this show as i haven't gone near a foil, but your hack engineering is impressive.

im guessing youre a retired cardio surgeon or technician--where either you came wired for patience and meticulousness, or you got that way through training and practice--can i call you when i need my bypass? (fortunately just joking--plaque-up aint likely to be my problem)

closest ive seen of that kind of engineering is the jacob's ladder string games i played as a child!!!

very cool work you are doing--fun to learn of, even as a non-foiler (so far)



Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: eastbound on December 19, 2018, 09:33:52 AM
what surfoils said! no dog in this show as i haven't gone near a foil, but your hack engineering is impressive.

im guessing youre a retired cardio surgeon or technician--where either you came wired for patience and meticulousness, or you got that way through training and practice--can i call you when i need my bypass? (fortunately just joking--plaque-up aint likely to be my problem)

closest ive seen of that kind of engineering is the jacob's ladder string games i played as a child!!!

very cool work you are doing--fun to learn of, even as a non-foiler (so far)

thanks for taking time sharing the ride..........
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 09:40:00 AM
That's quite a jig. There is a way without any cardiac surgery equipment: Make a drilling jig that can be precisely installed each time to drill the first hole. That includes the hole for the fuselage. That's a common cabinetry and metalwork problem. It seems like every project I do there comes a point where progress has to stop while I make a jig to drill repeated holes where the hole needs to align to a blind hole.

Yes I'm sure there are a dozen ways to solve this problem.  Liking my Jig due to the ability of being quickly adjustable to any dimension.
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 09:50:18 AM

I was wondering about making the center with two ribs spaced just wide enough for the fuse insert. Then you could just cut or bend the carbon tow struts enough to insert it in between? Not sure if thatís easier or not but it seems like it might be.

Yes, Spacing 2 ribs or templates closer together would work fine and I do believe the lack of high strength filler would not be a problem and make the wing that much lighter.  I just feel better having a little more high strength filler around such a critical spot with regards to stress.   Easy enough  to test but getting the answer requires failure after a lot of hard work.   My wing weights do not seem bad and all my wings float very well.  Do not have a scale but will try to get wing weights measured.

Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 10:01:21 AM
Someone earlier asked to see the finished version.  I have not yet put the added carbon over the nose cone but it looks the same. 
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 19, 2018, 10:03:28 AM
Another one showing Version 1 to the right.  Far more difficult to make versus my newer method.  It was carved plywood, very heavy and inexact, but it flew!
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 19, 2018, 09:02:26 PM
Ok answers were so very clear. Thank you.

For the blind hole jig alone you are a genius. But I have to agree with surffoils (yet again) that these things are works of art. Iím in awe, truly.

The finished product is really nice. Iíd guess you are right about the shapes too. The sanding makes sense but really thereís not a difference between that finish and a commercial foil.

I now also understand the strength. You not only have a 6 ply (Or thereabouts) outer skin but a much stronger inner structure than any foam based wing. Itís got to be incredibly stiff.

My hat is off to you. I just showed my wife whoís a visual artist and she was impressed with the beauty of the inner structure alone. I also now wish I had about 20 more hours a week to build something like this. Pono, I feel like my retirement project list is going to be similar to yours thanks to this forum.

Also, your fuselage and connection is really the way to go. If I do another one of these Iím going back to my original tube mount but using your method of a ton of carbon and custom forming the outer tube over a waxed fuselage. This is the way to go for a diy foil if anyone is considering it. Just donít skimp on the carbon and mind your direction on layers and I actually believe that a home built mast can be stiffer than any of the cheap aluminum masts.

Again, thank you. Iím going to build a rig to do my blind holes now with some clamps
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SUPeter on December 20, 2018, 04:21:45 AM
This ones for your wife.  Merry Christmas
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 20, 2018, 10:01:21 AM
That's great stuff there Peter, thanks for sharing the photos, and all the details of your work. While none of it is anything I have the tools or really the skills to attempt, I always enjoy seeing the great imagination, ingenuity, and talents of others who can take an idea, and bring it to fruition as you have here. Well done sir, well done.   :)
Title: Re: 3-D printed foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 20, 2018, 07:35:05 PM
Thanks man, great shot.

I have to go back and find your first stuff where you can see the pattern of the weave. Too cool.