Standup Zone Forum

General Category => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: Beasho on December 04, 2018, 07:36:39 AM

Title: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 04, 2018, 07:36:39 AM
In a Vacuum all moisture will evaporate.  There is no way around the physics of the Phase-Diagram.

The question is HOW TO BUILD A VACUUM for Board repair.

I am including a version that BEAN has shown.  It looks like this requires:

1.   A Vacuum Pump.  These seem to range from $45 to $500++
2.   A Pressure “Sump” to collect moisture
3.   Tubing
4.   Connectors
5.   Pressure Gauge

I was reluctant to invest in all of this 'stuff' OTHER than the fact that nothing keeps a board YOUNG like being light and spritely.  AND the only way boards start to suck is when the get loaded with water.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 04, 2018, 07:44:54 AM
How Important is the PUMP? 

aka will the $75 pump on Amazon do the Job?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MY0C5EZ/?coliid=I17K5889FQHZ93&colid=1UI7W46HW56MH&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on December 04, 2018, 07:51:02 AM
I have avoided 'those' type of pumps aka super good deals after hearing that they spit oil while they work.

I found a 40$ Gast at a surplus store it has been working well for me.

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32181.0;attach=86923)
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on December 04, 2018, 08:10:21 AM
How Important is the PUMP? 
aka will the $75 pump on Amazon do the Job?

I totally agree with jrandy.  My first vac pump was very similiar and would  get hot and spew oil mist within just a few miutes of operation.  A good surplus (Gast/Thomas) will run continuously for months w/o issue.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/diypondaeration/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: stoneaxe on December 04, 2018, 11:10:37 AM
I knew I'd be using mine for clamping woodworking and heavier duty use vac bagging so I built the Joe Woodworker with a Gast. I also have a portable workbench I made from some hollow core. I'm turning sections of it into vacuum clamps for doing sheet work. I think its worthwhile going a bit heavier duty.

Understanding how hard you are on boards and how often it's likely to be used I don't think this is something you want to skimp on....the Joe Woodworker Kit was a pleasant afternoon in the shop to build. Mine looks pretty much exactly as shown on the website. I built a shelf just for it on the wall of the garage.
https://joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 04, 2018, 12:43:35 PM
You can use the cheap pump, but it requires a bit of modification. The oil spitting is from the top vent. I tapped the vent hole (I've seen some that are already tapped) and replaced the plug with a vertical standpipe about two feet high made from PVC pipe. That by itself will solve 90 percent of the spitting since the oil will get trapped on the pipe wall and trickle back into the pump. But you still have warm air with some oil entrained. So I made a coffee can cyclone separator to add to the top. The air velocity isn't really high enough for the cyclone to be as effective as it is in venting race car engines with dry sumps, but it does the trick, probably just by impingement. No oil in the exhaust air.

After all that screwing around, I brought a proper pump to do vacuum bagging. I needed good control of the pump for that, and it's easier to set up a vacuum switch, unloader resevoir, check valve and accumulator that all fits into an easily stowable base if you get a gast or gast clone. I also got my kit from Joe The Woodworker.

If all you want to do is suck water out of boards, the cheap pump will work fine. You don't really need a trap--water flowing through those things is not a big deal--but a trap is super easy to make.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on December 04, 2018, 01:51:27 PM
hard on boards?
who?

not our beasho?

bahahaha
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 12, 2018, 06:56:03 AM
You can use the cheap pump, but it requires a bit of modification. . . . .
After all that screwing around, I brought a proper pump to do vacuum bagging. I needed good control of the pump for that, and it's easier to set up a vacuum switch, unloader resevoir, check valve and accumulator that all fits into an easily stowable base if you get a gast or gast clone. I also got my kit from Joe The Woodworker.

If all you want to do is suck water out of boards, the cheap pump will work fine. You don't really need a trap--water flowing through those things is not a big deal--but a trap is super easy to make.

TMI?  So here I am with this Hunking piece of industrial metal GAST pump. 

What next?  I don't want to do vacuum bagging BUT I am inclined to make the water trap. 

Looks like I need some:

1) Soft feet
2) Threaded Valve stems
3) On/Off switch
4) Power Cord
5) Wooden Platform
6) Tubing
7) Vacuum / Water Reservoir
8) Vacuum pressure meter (oil filled?)

I can add the fancy stuff later (I hope).
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2018, 09:00:25 AM
Cool. If you want to be able to control the vacuum and not have the pump run continuously you need more parts. A water trap is easy, any airtight container with an inlet and outlet on top and space below for the water. If you are going to suck water with a Gast pump then you definitely need a water trap. It's the cheapo oil spewing pumps that don't really need one. A big water trap can also double as a resin trap if you start doing vacuum bagging or diffusion.

If you want to manage the vacuum, you need a vacuum switch, accumulator and unloader system. If you're interested I can supply the details, but I think there's plenty of info available by Google search. Not expensive or hard to make, you have the most expensive part right there on your bench.

In all the talk about vacuum pumps, I forgot to mention the third option. If you have a reasonable-sized compressor you could use a vacuum venturi, Simple, cheap and noisy, but they work fine, and you don't need a water trap. The water just blows out.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on December 12, 2018, 09:14:17 AM
Beasho, that is an impressive pump. Careful with that capacitor...

From the picture of my rig earlier in thread:

Suck side:
pump
pipe nipple
t-fitting with gauge off one arm
pipe nipple, valve (useless for me in retrospect, skip this line...)
hose barb
tubing
hose barb w/ backing nut
trap lid and jar (mason type jar and 1 piece lid from bbq sauce+ beer koozie impact protection)
hose barb w/ backing nut
tubing
hose barb
vacuum disconnect (super sweet for vacuum bagging projects, beats taping in a mustard jar nozzle)
project

Blow side:
pump
pipe nipple
muffler
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2018, 09:17:31 AM
Ummm, I wouldn't use an ordinary glass jar unless you're wearing Kevlar. You can make traps from PVC pipe, but use schedule 40.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on December 12, 2018, 09:23:22 AM
Comments about glass jar are heard. I guess I was making the assumption that if they can be boiled and sealed and cooled that they have enough snot for this application. The koozie may not be enough...
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2018, 09:30:54 AM
Kevlar Koozie?  It's only 14.7 pounds psi at most, and glass is surprisingly tough if the surface is perfect, and super strong in compression, but the tiniest defect or scratch makes all that strength go away, and the mouth of the jar is the weak spot. I blew out (or more precisely, blew in) my first accumulator by using cheap PVC pipe. Flying PVC is not quite as hazardous as flying glass.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on December 12, 2018, 10:13:27 AM
For my water collection tank, I used 4" pvc as in the pic above.  Long and vertical works best for water seperation.  You could install baffles or run the inlet hose deeper into the tank, (but I have not).

The bottom of the pvc pipe is capped with a glue-on pvc cap.  There is a (cheap) brass valve threaded right into the bottom pvc cap for drainage.  For the top I used a threaded cap (cleanout adaptor). 

The inlet, oulet and vac-gauge nipples are all threaded right into the removable pvc cap.  There is also a simple air valve at the top which works fine for adjusting the vacuum. (You can find these fitting at Harbor Freight.) Just drill the right size hole, and the threads will tap themselves in.  The vac gauge is borrowed from my MightyVac, but you can find similar for less than 10 bucks.



 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 12, 2018, 08:28:29 PM
Should be fine if you're going to run the pump continuously. The little motor can't crank the pump against a vacuum and will burn out if you try to make it do that and it stalls, so if you have an accumulator (your water trap is effectively that) you need to make sure the pump never has to start with that water trap under vacuum. For the most part that's easy to do, in fact you'd have to do something odd, like crimp the inlet line, run the pump until it has a nice vacuum in the trap, then turn the pump off and back on before air leaks in. Unlikely. But that's exactly how vacuum systems work for vacuum bagging. Which is why there are a lot more parts involved.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: stoneaxe on December 13, 2018, 08:27:44 AM
Tangent here but the Kevlar koozy thing made me think of it. I'm beginning to think FB is going to bring about the collapse of civilization...it's certainly destroying civility. I'm on some woodworking groups on FB. Just had an argument with a couple of guys about using PVC for compressed air. I was surprised so many were saying its fine to use and telling others its OK. I just don't get people....arguing about something...getting nasty in fact about something I know they are 100% wrong about. It doesn't matter if you're an expert and they're not, that you can provide links from manufacturers saying it's not (dangerous in fact), and videos showing exploding pipes. They just get angry and start name calling. From a sampling of FB posts I'm thinking idiocy far outweighs intelligence in humanity....at least amongst FB users.

Rant over...back to vacuum and drying boards.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2018, 09:28:09 AM
This is how I feel when I bring up the topic and benefit of footstraps.

People get offended to the core.  People who haven't even used them.  It's as if you stepped on their sacred tenet.

Really bizarre, not worth the fight. 

There is a small fraction of people who can look at data and say "OK I was wrong and now I agree with you!"  As someone noted 'I will never get a tattoo because I do NOT want to be wedded to any idea or symbol for my entire life.'
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 13, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
The biggest benefit of profound ADD--I'm not wedded to anything, because I can't focus on anything, or remember the details of anything long enough to think I "know" it.

This is a trivial but current example: After all the work I did with embedded systems over the years I decided to do a couple of relatively simple Arduino-based projects using wireless mesh networks or a lightweight version of it to manage multiple sensors. I feel like I'm starting off at the baby level, knowing nothing. Took me a day to get the simple dev environment set up. Another day to get the micro versions (Qudino) to load and execute code properly. Another day to blink some RGB Leds. I know nothing. I have to be open to everything, as open as I can be.

I'm reading a book called On The Future by Martin Rees. I'm familiar with most of the data and projections that he's drawing from--they fit in my wheelhouse of interests. But I've never seen them fit together like this. What it tells me, and what I see from spending time in Facebook (less and less-my tolerance is decreasing daily) is that humanity is staggeringly ill-equipped to handle the future, and the unwillingness to consider alternatives and to toss away closely held beliefs is probably what fucks us more than anything else.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: stoneaxe on December 13, 2018, 11:51:36 AM
I used to think the web was one of mankinds greatest inventions. Not so sure anymore.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 13, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
Tangent here but the Kevlar koozy thing made me think of it. I'm beginning to think FB is going to bring about the collapse of civilization...it's certainly destroying civility.

Rant over...back to vacuum and drying boards.
I could go on as well about all of this internet anonymity that makes folks think they can talk like they never would if face-to-face with someone, or at least someone who they might have actually have some personal interactions with sometime later on down the road. But yes, it's easy to get caught up in, and I was finding myself losing sleep over something some dimwit I'd never met, nor ever would...said about something that I just might have had a little expertise in, and yet here I was letting it bother me to the point of not being able to let it go hours later.

Anyway, fortunately there's a real easy fix for it come to find out...I just deleted my FB account, and stopped posting on several of the forums that I used to get so worked up over. You'd be surprised at just how entertaining it is to sit in the cheap seats, and watch the nonsense unfold in front of you. It's kind of like going to a NASCAR event...it's an OK event to go to for the basic amazement of what man and machine can do...but dang, what a show when the inevitable entanglement of solid object meets solid object, and the unbelievable excitement, suspense, and unknown outcome as you see it start to unfold right there in front of you. Same way with many of the posts, and posters on some of these vitriolic social media sites...great places to go watch some fun action and excitement, but not for the faint of heart to get behind the wheel of many of them most of the time.  ;) :D
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on December 13, 2018, 01:46:35 PM
This is how I feel when I bring up the topic and benefit of footstraps.

People get offended to the core.  People who haven't even used them.  It's as if you stepped on their sacred tenet.

Really bizarre, not worth the fight. 

There is a small fraction of people who can look at data and say "OK I was wrong and now I agree with you!"
Can you point me to the "data" that says a front and/or rear foot strap is better than no front and/or rear foot strap please?  :)

There's also a small fraction of people who seem to confuse "data" with "personal preference". Or stated other wise....

“To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive.” ― Robert Louis Stevenson

“The spoon’s color does not change the soup’s taste.” ― Matshona Dhliwayo

 I happen to "prefer" a front strap (haven't tried a rear strap yet), but I also watched Zane in person do some absolutely amazing things on his foil board w/o any straps, well above and beyond what anyone else out on the water was doing at the time in the same conditions...with or w/o straps.

So all I'm saying is that I'm not convinced there's an absolute argument for one over the other yet as fair as I can tell. 8)

Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 13, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
The biggest benefit of profound ADD--I'm not wedded to anything,. . . .  humanity is staggeringly ill-equipped to handle the future, and the unwillingness to consider alternatives and to toss away closely held beliefs is probably what fucks us more than anything else.
- You mean like Footstraps!!!!  Ahhhhhhh  8)

My comments were meant to be in 2 parts: 

1) A rant in favor of Footstraps
---------------------------------------
2) A bash on those that can't 'pivot' when faced with new data information

Maybe I made a Freudian slip and linked the two concepts together. 

I believe I was quoting you (Ponobill) with the data statement. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 15, 2018, 02:22:25 PM
Making progress . . . impatiently.

Got the Vacuum pump and oil pressure gauge.  Hooked the rig up to the Gortex Vent plug and let it run overnight ~ 24 hours.

There was some moisture showing up in the tubing which was encouraging but no droplets.  Total weight loss ~ 0.05 lbs . . as Uconn Cornelius would say "Nothing."  Pressure was a steady -25 inHG.

I went to the hardware store and bought some more supplies for the water 'condensor'.

Before I hooked it up I switched back to connecting 2 irrigation tubes to the holes I drilled in the front of the board.  Within 5 minutes water was running into the tubing prompting me to STOP the whole operation and build my water trap. 

At this point the water trap is ONLY pressure fitted.  NOT fully secured.  I figured the vacuum would hold it all together.   Water is ONCE again flowing from the board.  Starting point now is ~ 20.90 lbs.  Targeting 18.4 lbs.

Note: Pressure has SLIPPED to 22 inHG.  But there does seem to be a hearty flow which I think is critical to sucking the water out. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 15, 2018, 02:29:03 PM
Here is an interesting observation:  There is Condensation on the outside of the irrigation TUBING running from the Hole drilled in the nose of the board.

The tubing is also COLD to the touch.   This is great news because condensation is the OPPOSITE of evaporation.

On the inside the OPPOSITE procedure should be happening.  The low pressure causing Evaporation. 

The little aquarium pumps were sufficient to drain the physical water but I think this pump is going to the next level . . . taking it to 11.

Continuously running pump consumes 200 Watts of power.  Not the end of the world but worth mentioning for those energy conscious.  Alternately I have to weigh the cost and time of building a sensor and switches vs. just running the pump for a day / week / month.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 15, 2018, 03:03:34 PM
I had the aquarium pumps on the board for a month and stalled out at 20.95 lbs.

50 minutes with the configuration above and the board has dropped to 20.7 lbs.  Making progress.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 15, 2018, 08:02:25 PM
You know you could pull the transmission and motor out of an old washing machine and make a spinner--that will get your board dry--or toss it into the wall at Mach 2 (see the "WHAT, Mavericks contest canceled" thread for relevant discussion).
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 15, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
It's kind of like going to a NASCAR event...it's an OK event to go to for the basic amazement of what man and machine can do...but dang, what a show when the inevitable entanglement of solid object meets solid object, and the unbelievable excitement, suspense, and unknown outcome as you see it start to unfold right there in front of you. Same way with many of the posts, and posters on some of these vitriolic social media sites...great places to go watch some fun action and excitement, but not for the faint of heart to get behind the wheel of many of them most of the time.  ;) :D

My favorite T-shirt simply has lettering that says "To dumb for opera, too smart for NASCAR."
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: surfcowboy on December 16, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
Beasho, will you summarize across your posts and threads? What weight did you start at and where did you finish.

Meaning, did you justify the bigger pump or did the aquarium pump get most water out?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 07:37:06 AM
Progress continues but it has become slower and more expensive per lbs.

However - There has been great learning.

1) Extracting water once the physical water sloshing around becomes a heat transfer exercise. 

2) Greater vacuum pressure combined with heat will solve the problem but this takes energy and a strong board

3) The water is DEFINITELY localized near the dings

It was no coincidence that my tubes were cold to the touch as water was draining out.  That was the last vestiges of primarily liquid water concentrated around the dings.  The next morning the tubes were WARM and the water flow had slowed WAY, WAY down.

One week ago I got the Weight down to 20.25 lbs.  Time to take things on the road.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 07:55:14 AM
Need some Heat!

Leveraging the California sun, which can be fickle this time of year.

Making sure things don't get TOO hot with Thermal Imaging.  Maxing out at 120 degrees.

Weight down to 20.1 lbs.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 07:59:21 AM
Needed to make a carriage for all the gear.  Cut up an old wooden crate that had been floating around the garage for years.

Decided NOT to fully glue the Condenser tube.  This was probably a good thing because I doubt any drain spout could keep up with the amount of GOOP that collects at the bottom.  Nasty yellow biology and Salts.

The pressure fit of the condenser tubing still appears to hold enough vacuum.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 08:02:46 AM
With the mobile rack I can more easily position the board for the sun around the house.

After another day in the sun, and an overnight with a space heater on the nose, pulling the vacuum through 2 holes on the nose and with 2 x 11/64" holes in the tail/mid section I am down to 19.90 lbs.   

Progress report as follows:
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 08:08:31 AM
Energy and Flow Rate are key at this point.  From the Board Lady:

"Evacuation of water occurs primarily due to evaporation, which requires energy to cause water molecules to mobilize; and air exchange, to carry off these mobilized molecules. For this air exchange, we can generally only offer a 5/16" diameter vent fixture. That's less than 1/10th square inches, to evaporate moisture out of the approx 30 liters of air that is free to move in the EPS channels of a 100 liter board. The resulting evaporation rate is dismal, to put it mildly, hence the length of time required.

Think of a wet towel: you hang it up on the line, with a dry 75 degree breeze flapping it about, and it will be bone-dry by nightfall. But bunch it up, throw it in the hamper, and it will still be wet next week. Little surface area, little energy to mobilize the water molecules, little air flow to carry them off."


https://boardlady.com/waterintheboard.htm
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 09:14:26 AM
PS:  When using a Vacuum to pressurize ding repairs:

WHAT IS THE BEST SUBSTRATE TO ALLOW AIR TO FLOW BELOW A LAYER OF PLASTIC THAT ALSO APPLIES AN EVEN PRESSURE DISTRIBUTION ON THE BOARD?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
If you keep the vacuum reasonable and don't squash it, any open cell foam will work well. EPS is fine.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 23, 2018, 02:55:30 PM
EPS?  Sounds like it would be a thick application.

I tried to tape down a sheet of plastic vinyl - as in cover for hard copy report.  I punched 5 holes in the vinyl and bored a hole into a cheap suction cup. 

The vacuum appeared to semi-seal the vinyl along the center and NOT all the way to the perimeter.   This was a test on a random FLAT section of the board .  Next attempt would be to place on some sort of curve and insulate the vacuum layer from the resin maybe with clear packaging tape or plastic wrap??? 

Putting a sheet of paper towel seemed to do the trick of getting the vacuum distributed under the entire sheet to the edge of the tape.

I am only a neophyte here.  Any suggestions would be great.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on December 23, 2018, 03:00:25 PM
The standard vac bag layup:

core, glass, resin, perf ply OR peel ply, breather matt, bagging film with edges sealed with mastic.

Peel ply (silicone treated nylon) soaks up extra resin and creates a re-bondable surface. Perf ply (plastic with small holes) only bleeds a little resin from the laminate into the breather.

The breather matt is not 100% crushable so there is room for air flow out of the bag through the pump.

-Beasho, your choice of on-hand materials was pretty good short of buying from a composites store.-

I have a thread called 'a little vaccum bagging' that might help:

https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,32181.msg359640.html#msg359640 (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,32181.msg359640.html#msg359640)

(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29591.0;attach=73531;image)
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: surfcowboy on December 23, 2018, 03:21:46 PM
Breather material is just cheap poly quilting filler that you can sport from a fabric store. That or any old fleece blanket that you’ve got or buy from Walmart/target for $5-$10.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 23, 2018, 07:58:11 PM
Sure, breather ply will work. I use EPS a lot for flat vaccum bagging because I can salvage it from packing material and it applies even pressure edge to edge instead of being hard on the edges and soft in the middle.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on December 27, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
Slow and Steady seems to be working.

Down to 19.4 lbs --> Targeting 18.4 lbs

Running the pump continuously with small space heater (~ 200 Watts) pulling 18 inHG. 

The board lady suggested that THROUGHPUT would be necessary.  I have 2 holes in the bottom of the board 15/64" and ONE at the top of the board.

It appears as though the weight is dropping at a rate of 1/10 lbs per day for the last 5 days.  Just 1 lbs left to go.

I may plug it up sooner and/or use Pono's silver tape for temporary seal-up on the holes to allow for Surfing and then draining overnight.  The waves have been big which has prevented me from needing the smaller foil board.  I have been happy with my 7' 4" board in waves that have been continuously 8 to 10 to 14 feet or more on the buoys. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: stoneaxe on December 27, 2018, 03:43:09 PM
Great to see the progress....sucks that it takes so long but your patience is paying off.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 27, 2018, 04:19:56 PM
I have temporary aluminum tape repairs on my !7 V1 that are five years old. After you'd gone to all that trouble to lighten up your board it would be a shame to do a conventional repair which can easily add a pound.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on December 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
A conventional repair should not add any additional weight unless you simply scab on a patch.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 27, 2018, 06:56:37 PM
A conventional repair should not add any additional weight unless you simply scab on a patch.

Certainly, if you are super careful, table-wet the cloth, do everything just perfectly, it might only be a bit heavier than the original skin, but it will be a LOT heavier than a couple of piece of aluminum foil. And if you do the standard ding repair as practiced by any number of pros, you can double that added weight. Try it some time. I've compared a standard repair to just taping with aluminum tape numerous times. I don't use it because I'm lazy, or I don't have the materials, or I don't know how to fix dings. I do it because it works very well and it's the lightest way to get the job done--as long as you don't care about cosmetics.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on December 29, 2018, 05:19:09 AM
Aside from making the board look like a Duct Tape Invitational wannabe, tape does not address structural damage.  For instance a simple rail ding will be the most likely place that a board might snap.

One key step in keeping the weight off in a repair is building up the foam before you laminate.  A heavy repair is also an invitation for a snap because it creates a hard spot (can act as stress riser).

For temporary ding repair, I bet the aluminum tape would work great.  I like to use vinyl stickers.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on December 29, 2018, 08:34:19 AM
Beasho's holes are not in structural areas at all. I still repair anything that I think needs structural help, but I'm not so sure that even a careful repair is an improvement over a ding. You expand the damage by sanding, which cuts glass fibers in a much larger area, and glue on a patch, which is discontinuous and hardens at a different rate, probably is not the same glass schedule and is probably a different epoxy formulation. I certainly see the value from a cosmetic standpoint, and I'm as awed as anyone by expert and careful repairs (mine never are), but I'm not so certain about the engineering properties--either strength or as a stress riser. I agree that if you're going to repair a board then you need to do it right, solarez or slapping on a wad of glass over the paint on an unfaired ding doesn't work at all, but in my experience, two layers of aluminum tape works very well even as a long-term repair, especially if you burnish the first layer with a piece of rounded plastic to get full adhesion. But yes, my venerable and fragile Maui downwind board looks like hell, but hasn't gained weight (it was always heavy) or leaked any water (it's hollow, I'd know) despite dozens of through the skin leakers that I patched as many as four years ago. And it remains in one piece, despite my 230 pounds floundering all over it in challenging conditions.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on December 29, 2018, 09:54:52 AM
I'm not so sure that even a careful repair is an improvement over a ding.

👍
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 08, 2019, 04:41:34 PM
Final Report on the 6' 6" - Weight 19.2 lbs AFTER REPAIR work.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on January 08, 2019, 04:44:35 PM
Nice job Beasho!
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 08, 2019, 04:57:44 PM
These were 2 of the primary repairs to the nose. 

I sanded down all the abuse and covered with a layer of Epoxy and Microballoons - Let Dry

It was pretty much water-proof at that point.  Then I added:
Board is now water-tight and I am adding some Rail Saver to these nose sections for added future ding insulation.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 08, 2019, 05:05:52 PM
The 15/64" air holes that I drilled were the easiest to cover back up.

I took a 1/4" dowel and inserted it until it stopped.  Cut it at length ~ 1/2".  At this point it weighed almost nothing.

I gorilla glued the dowel tight into the hole recessed maybe 1/32".  Let dry.

In this example on the tail I took a small bit of epoxy mixed it with a touch of red die and then covered the hole.

Took a strip of Packing tape and covered then let dry.

The coloration is more obvious in this photo than it appears to the naked eye.  It's nearly imperceptible. 

This is a good thing because I am more inclined to drill holes and dry boards now.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 08, 2019, 05:15:29 PM
The madness continues:  I am drying another board my 9' 2" PSH Hull Ripper. 

It started at 23.4 lbs without fins.  I got it down to 23.2 lbs overnight with vacuum pump and heater.

What I have realized is that HEAT is as important as Air flow and Vacuum.

Heat can be CHEAP in the form of sunlight but given our short Northern California days, and plenty of cloudy skies, I am now improvising with artificial stimulants. 

My latest theory is to gently cook the boards at 120 to 150 degrees.  I haven't figured out the best temperature but I DON'T want to compromise the boards lamination or underlying EPS structure.  I read that EPS will breakdown at 212 degrees.  Oddly similar to water.

To get the WATER out of the board I also need to push the limits of that temperature.  Typically putting a board in the sunlight can be damaging.  However when under a vacuum there is LITTLE chance of delamination because the board is under NEGATIVE pressure.  I am also realizing that the boards MOST at risk of delamination in the sun are water saturated.  The water expands as it vaporizes even more than the hot air . . . .

Any ideas on how to safely and economically cook the boards while under vacuum?  This thing claims to have temperature control and is ~ $25 on Amazon. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07456SPMF/?coliid=IJVWF5E7QQQTT&colid=1UI7W46HW56MH&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: mrbig on January 08, 2019, 05:52:13 PM
Small room. Electric heat. Parabolic is good. 100 degrees. That and the aqarium pump setup I described got all of the water out of my RNB. Took three days once I left it alone.

I suspect a much older and more waterlogged board would take longer.

As always your YMMV!
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on January 08, 2019, 07:54:28 PM
Remember the greater the vacuum, the lower the boiling temp
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: TallDude on January 08, 2019, 08:43:16 PM
I glassed a smaller board and did my post cures in a taped together box made of foil back 1/2" sheets of rigid insulation foam. Then stuck one a electric radiant heater I bought at a thrift store for $3.00 ea on the floor under the board inside of it. I stuck a cooking thermometer through the foam on the lid, then adjusted the heater to get it right.  You don't want to get the foam board to much over 110 degrees. The foam first expands them a little more heat and it collapses. The board looks like it caved in. My shop is has a 10' ceiling and is about 12' x 25'. It' insulated drywalled. Two of those electric radiant heaters will get my whole shop to about 95 deg. That's hot enough for a post cure cook off when I'm glassing a board. A fully cured hard epoxy is so much nicer to sand and finish. If you don't cure it with heat, it always feels kind of soft / rubbery.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: J-Bird on January 09, 2019, 11:07:10 AM
The madness continues:  I am drying another board my 9' 2" PSH Hull Ripper. 

It started at 23.4 lbs without fins.  I got it down to 23.2 lbs overnight with vacuum pump and heater.


So Beasho, how do you know the .2 lbs you lost didn't just come from the deckpad drying out?  You need to analyze data and not just take it.  Big difference.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 09, 2019, 05:32:36 PM
So Beasho, how do you know the .2 lbs you lost didn't just come from the deckpad drying out?  You need to analyze data and not just take it.  Big difference.

Let me guess you are not an engineer and feel threatened by data. 

The board had not been used for more than 2 months - dry as a bone.

Any more data insights that would be helpful we'll be happy to sit by your knee and listen. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 09, 2019, 05:47:48 PM
Remember the greater the vacuum, the lower the boiling temp

This is true but pretty extreme.  Our vacuums are drawing ~ 24 inHG (Negative). 

The attached shows the boiling point of water vs. pressure.  It's in Centigrade and I added some conversions.

At 20 inHG the true pressure is close to 9 inHG in the chart meaning the boiling point is still 150 F.  Pretty toasty.

The reality is that to convert water to gas takes an EXTREMELY high amount of energy.  540 calories per gram to vaporize vs. just 1 calorie to raise a gram of water 1 degree C from 25C to 26C.  The vacuum could be thought of as a tradeoff using the energy to CREATE the vacuum vs. vaporizing the water with heat. 

If we just cook the water then it sits there.  So the constantly running vacuum helps to draw out the moisture which is also necessary. 

You have probably been using this vacuum trick for a long time, therefore applying on fresher dings.  This board's weight is a combination of historic repairs, that you have pointed out MAY NOT ADD THAT MUCH weight, and water weight gain.   
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on January 09, 2019, 06:15:14 PM
no meds pls beasho, i am enjoying the madness--and, if anything, you are dogged! youre like a board anorexic!

i like the dowel trick--think it's as good as a regular old gorilla glue fill, with a couple layers of glass/epoxy?

clearly the dowel trick is quick and easy--seems it should hold up--but if it doesnt, just drain and dry again!
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 09, 2019, 06:20:37 PM
no meds pls beasho, i am enjoying the madness--and, if anything, you are dogged! youre like a board anorexic!

Funny but TRUE.  And I'm not even sure I want to ride that SUP anymore given my FOIL addiction.

My vacuum pump has been running almost constantly since I built it in the beginning of December.  My daughter, who keeps here rabbits in the garage, threatens every night to "turn off the pump because it disturbs the bunnies." 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on January 10, 2019, 03:52:12 AM
'Loving the report Beasho.
I would avoid 'cooking' anything EPS above 140F. I read a upper limit of 160 F before the foam (not solid PS) compromises but I cannot find it to quote.  There are also tales of woe on the interweb of boards left in hot cars, etc. that would support the notion damaging heat is not really that 'hot'...
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: J-Bird on January 10, 2019, 07:48:30 AM
So Beasho, how do you know the .2 lbs you lost didn't just come from the deckpad drying out?  You need to analyze data and not just take it.  Big difference.

Let me guess you are not an engineer and feel threatened by data. 

The board had not been used for more than 2 months - dry as a bone.

Any more data insights that would be helpful we'll be happy to sit by your knee and listen.

So just to straighten things out Beasho, I am a Nuclear Test Engineer,  qualified to supervise the operation of Nuclear Reactors for the US Navy,  and have a BSCE in Ocean Engineering and Masters degree work in Acoustics and Vibration...so yeah, I'm kind of an engineer.  The issue I have with you is with taking a small amount of mostly irrelevant data, and using it in a very unscientific manner to make broad claims.  People believe the shit you peddle, and Im trying to show them that data needs to be analyzed properly. I'm done trying to help you not look stupid.  Continue to tell people that its OK to repeatedly "cook" your board, I just feel bad for the folks that follow what you do and will then need to replace their boards after they delam , you idiot.

So you may be an engineer, but your not a very bright one.  Just a big blowhard that likes too blow his own horn and try to act like he know's everything.

Rant over, that's the last you'll hear from me on this forum.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on January 10, 2019, 08:28:29 AM
Hey, stick around J-Bird, we're all Ohana here...althoug a little disfunctional at times for sure.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: RideTheGlide on January 10, 2019, 08:50:43 AM

Some people just can't let it go...

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/3415915a00920e6ca202fa919c0301b895a9fd7b/c=26-0-274-330/local/-/media/2015/10/20/YorkDailyRecord/wp-PPYR-doubt-115-duty_calls.png) (https://colinon.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/someoneiswrongontheinternet_thumb.jpg)

Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: J-Bird on January 10, 2019, 09:38:01 AM
Thanks Bean, I appreciate the thought and understand.  I'm not done with the Zone, its great place with great people, just done with Beasho.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on January 10, 2019, 12:03:46 PM
Rant over, that's the last you'll hear from me on this forum.

Well that didn't last long!

Telling how a guy trained to supervise people enters a public forum discussing Vacuums and Drying surfboards and then accuses someone of bad data, presents nothing to counter, then starts using foul language words like idiot and stupid.  Maybe you should head to The Inertia plenty of angry people there.  https://www.theinertia.com/category/surf/
 
I apologize if heat of vaporization of water, phase diagrams and vacuum pressure are too much too handle.  I have never in my life met a data person or scientist who ever used this language in public.  Must come from a different school than I was taught at.  I hope it wasn’t the Navy.

Can we get back to drying boards?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on January 10, 2019, 12:16:36 PM
Hey Beasho, don't be a dick man...

https://youtu.be/n7zfnbdyAW8
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: outcast on January 11, 2019, 06:35:58 AM
Clearly it's winter around here!

So on a far more comedic level of board drying....Did anyone ever see the DingKing board spinner on Maui?

The concept was to centrifuge water to a tip...(presumably the crash site tip)

It looked like a giant lawn sprinkler on steroids.....spun a board at maybe 400 RPM, and threatened to kill anyone within it's wobbly radius.

Personally, water ingress, and a few dings brings me closer to Spousal-Permission to get a new board.....She is far less happy about all of the fibers/dust/sanders/microballons/ noise discarded cloves masks and mess.....
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: SanoSlatchSup on January 11, 2019, 10:07:25 AM
Hey guys, so I was just gonna say thaaa...what the...
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/5e/52/d65e52842b2f2782098a7de045969f00.gif)
...whoa! Never mind... ;) :D
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on January 11, 2019, 10:10:52 AM
Nice, strong cut-back  ;D
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on February 09, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
It started at 23.4 lbs without fins.  I got it down to 23.2 lbs overnight with vacuum pump and heater.

What I have realized is that HEAT is as important as Air flow and Vacuum.

Heat can be CHEAP in the form of sunlight but given our short Northern California days, and plenty of cloudy skies, I am now improvising with artificial stimulants. 

My latest theory is to gently cook the boards at 120 to 150 degrees.  I haven't figured out the best temperature but I DON'T want to compromise the boards lamination or underlying EPS structure.  I read that EPS will breakdown at 212 degrees.  Oddly similar to water.

Any ideas on how to safely and economically cook the boards while under vacuum?

Yes, heat helps a lot! I like the elaborate setup you guys used with the pump and all and might have gone that route had I read this thread before drying out my board last October. I didn't have a pump so I used a big shop vac instead. I blew out a fin box on a reef, so after removing the box, I duct taped a square of clear plastic sheet to the damaged area and duct taped the vacs corner tool through a hole in the plastic sheet and let the shop vac run for a couple hours. (I kept checking to see if the vacs motor was getting hot and was surprised that it didn't.) I had the board set at an angle in the sun while doing this and was amazed at how much water it sucked out. It's ghetto, but it worked.

After that I stripped away the glass around the damaged area and drilled holes in the nose and tail with a 1/4" bit. The next step was to dry out that area so I positioned the board at a 45 degree angle in a tiny 8' x 6' office with the tail down. I put one of those electric radiator type heaters under the board and tented the board with a blanket. I shut the door to the office and let the heater run overnight. The area around the box was dry the next day so I propped the board up vertically and left it in the room for a couple more days with the heater on until water stopped coming out of the hole in the tail. (Room temps were close to 100 degrees.)



i like the dowel trick--think it's as good as a regular old gorilla glue fill, with a couple layers of glass/epoxy?

clearly the dowel trick is quick and easy--seems it should hold up--but if it doesnt, just drain and dry again!

I use "tootsie roll" style dry epoxy for that. Slice off a piece and mix it with your fingers and then shove into the hole. If you have to drill out the holes later it's a lot easier than drilling through a wood dowel.



You know you could pull the transmission and motor out of an old washing machine and make a spinner.

Did anyone ever see the DingKing board spinner on Maui?

The concept was to centrifuge water to a tip...(presumably the crash site tip)

It looked like a giant lawn sprinkler on steroids.....spun a board at maybe 400 RPM, and threatened to kill anyone within it's wobbly radius.

I used to take my windsurfers to a guy that lived waaaay out at the end of a nasty old dirt road (especially after it rained!) in Haiku in the 90's and for $10 he would spin my board for a few minutes. You needed to drill a 1/4" wide hole in the nose and tail before going there. It didn't get out all of the water but was a great first step in drying out an EPS/epoxy board.

"...threatened to kill anyone within its wobbly radius" - hah, so true! I used to bail out and hide behind a car until it stopped spinning. If I recall correctly, it was an electric motor that (I think) was mounted to the wheel of a car with the tire filled with concrete like you might do for a tetherball setup. He had welded a simple  "T" shaped bracket to the top of the motor that you would strap the board to.

P.S. There's a board repair business in Encinitas (Brian) named Ding King.



For temporary ding repair, I bet the aluminum tape would work great.  I like to use vinyl stickers.

I always keep a roll of clear packing tape and a razor blade in my car for sealing dings until I get around to actually fixing them. You can stretch it to conform to the surface and if you keep your fingers away from the edges of the tape while applying it'll stay water tight indefinitely. It doesn't look as "Haitian" as alum tape and you can see through it to make sure there's no water ingress. You want the good clear packing tape and not the brown stuff though.


I think the best approach for drying out a board is to incorporate all three in this order: spinning - sucking - drying w/ heat.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on February 10, 2019, 04:23:54 AM
me too on the tootsie roll epoxy--it can be formed and jammed into all different sized holes--sands easily, before glassing over, and doesnt heat up at all while quik-drying--if hole is deep ill mix epoxy and balloons, but smaller issues the tootsie crap is great
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 15, 2019, 06:37:56 AM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 15, 2019, 11:08:04 AM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.

I like how you did this cuz it's cheap and effective and way less ghetto than how I did it. Please let us know how much weight you lost when you're done sucking and drying.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: toolate on March 15, 2019, 12:08:49 PM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.

Argh: I had a vent plug failure on A Jimmy Lewis a couple years back > Fortunately JL and Robert at BP made it right.

these things make me nervous!

Anyone have any advice about managing these things? Marlon told me it is really rare but I wonder...
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on March 15, 2019, 12:58:01 PM
I would agree with Marlon (and Jimmy), it's generally best not to poke the bear when dealing with a passive vent.

Because they are designed to gas out, and they constantly make bubbles, it makes it difficult to diagnose a leaking passive vent.  This is especially true when you consider all the different ways they can fail, (all resulting in bubbles at the vent).  Bond failure between the vent body and the lam, cross threaded, cut or deformed o-ring, bad element, etc.  As you can imagine, these failures sometimes happen when installing and uninstalling the element screw.

If you suspect the vent is allowing water in, one way to check is simply by unscrewing the element.  If there is water inside, it is obviously leaking.  If not, stuff a small piece of paper towel inside and reinstall the element.  Apply water for a little while and see if the towel remained dry under the element.

It's never a bad idea to weigh the board and mark it on the stringer so you have a bench mark for those times when you swear it's feeling heavy.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on March 15, 2019, 02:42:33 PM
Clearly it's winter around here!

So on a far more comedic level of board drying....Did anyone ever see the DingKing board spinner on Maui?

The concept was to centrifuge water to a tip...(presumably the crash site tip)

It looked like a giant lawn sprinkler on steroids.....spun a board at maybe 400 RPM, and threatened to kill anyone within it's wobbly radius.

Personally, water ingress, and a few dings brings me closer to Spousal-Permission to get a new board.....She is far less happy about all of the fibers/dust/sanders/microballons/ noise discarded cloves masks and mess.....

I didn't just see Mark's, I built one. I used the transmission and motor from a clothes dryer. I attempted to add a dynamic balancer to it but it didn't work. I used it twice and took it to the dump. Yes, it worked, yes it was scary, especially with a 14' board. There was pics and a video of mine in operation on the Zone back around 2008 or 9. I think the pics disappeared as part of the great Ke Nalu website destruction incident.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: toolate on March 17, 2019, 12:55:24 PM
Saw one on Oahu 20 yeras ago in a windsurfing shop. wonder what happend to it. was a good idea

So on a far more comedic level of board drying....Did anyone ever see the DingKing board spinner on Maui?

The concept was to centrifuge water to a tip...(presumably the crash site tip)

It looked like a giant lawn sprinkler on steroids.....spun a board at maybe 400 RPM, and threatened to kill anyone within it's wobbly radius.

Personally, water ingress, and a few dings brings me closer to Spousal-Permission to get a new board.....She is far less happy about all of the fibers/dust/sanders/microballons/ noise discarded cloves masks and mess.....
[/quote]
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: toolate on March 17, 2019, 12:59:54 PM
Problem is, in order to check you need to loosen and remove the vent plug and in the process might damage the o ring or not screw it in right or use too much force etc
I would agree with Marlon (and Jimmy), it's generally best not to poke the bear when dealing with a passive vent.

Because they are designed to gas out, and they constantly make bubbles, it makes it difficult to diagnose a leaking passive vent.  This is especially true when you consider all the different ways they can fail, (all resulting in bubbles at the vent).  Bond failure between the vent body and the lam, cross threaded, cut or deformed o-ring, bad element, etc.  As you can imagine, these failures sometimes happen when installing and uninstalling the element screw.

If you suspect the vent is allowing water in, one way to check is simply by unscrewing the element.  If there is water inside, it is obviously leaking.  If not, stuff a small piece of paper towel inside and reinstall the element.  Apply water for a little while and see if the towel remained dry under the element.

It's never a bad idea to weigh the board and mark it on the stringer so you have a bench mark for those times when you swear it's feeling heavy.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: toolate on March 17, 2019, 01:01:25 PM
me too on the tootsie roll epoxy--it can be formed and jammed into all different sized holes--sands easily, before glassing over, and doesnt heat up at all while quik-drying--if hole is deep ill mix epoxy and balloons, but smaller issues the tootsie crap is great


What type do you like?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 17, 2019, 11:59:00 PM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.

I took my super light 9-2 Sunova longboard sup out today for a couple hours and noticed it weighed a ton on the walk back to my car. So bummed. Anywho, what kind of pump did you use and where did you buy it and the tubing and connectors?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on March 18, 2019, 03:37:35 AM
bummer--you clearly care about weight, and at 15 lbs x 9'2", that board is light!
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on March 18, 2019, 06:45:27 AM
Hey Magenta, have you figured out the source of the leak?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 18, 2019, 09:39:29 AM
bummer--you clearly care about weight, and at 15 lbs x 9'2", that board is light!

Not any longer!


Hey Magenta, have you figured out the source of the leak?

Yes, it looks like it's one of the FCS1 plugs because if I wiggle the fin I can see water around the perimeter of the plug. It wasn't ever damaged, as in hitting a reef, but the edges of all the fin plugs on this sup are raised slightly higher than the surrounding surface. It's as if the last thing they did on this board was to plop in the fin plugs. This is an older Sunova so I sure hope they aren't still installing them like that.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 18, 2019, 09:53:07 AM
Do you guys think this little pump would work to suck a board? It's only $9 at Harbor Freight and has hundreds of positive reviews.
https://www.harborfreight.com/158-gph-submersible-fountain-pump-63315.html

QUESTION: Does a pump like that require water to flow through it so it doesn't burn out?

Now, where to find the tubing? Aquarium store only?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on March 18, 2019, 10:58:56 AM
Magenta, I would suggest that you drill that fin plug completely out.  Here's why.  If you only try to seal the fin plug from the top it will still be loose in the cavity and will likely fail again.  The bonus is, as you will completely open the fin box (plug), it will dry out much faster.  Whether you apply vaccum or not.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on March 18, 2019, 11:56:25 AM
The trick to drilling out a round FCS plug is to insert a small piece of plastic or wood about the size of a fin tab into the fin slot and tighten the grub screw.  It will help you control your hole saw by providing a stable spot for the pilot drill. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 18, 2019, 05:54:32 PM
The trick to drilling out a round FCS plug is to insert a small piece of plastic or wood about the size of a fin tab into the fin slot and tighten the grub screw.  It will help you control your hole saw by providing a stable spot for the pilot drill.

Great tip! Thank you.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 18, 2019, 10:03:48 PM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.

I took my super light 9-2 Sunova longboard sup out today for a couple hours and noticed it weighed a ton on the walk back to my car. So bummed. Anywho, what kind of pump did you use and where did you buy it and the tubing and connectors?


Sorry to hear! The pump is a Tetra 100 from Amazon. Connectors included. 1/4" aquarium tubing extra. Good luck!




Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on March 19, 2019, 03:18:45 AM
the seal with silicone sealant seems a new tweak, and a good one
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: surfcowboy on March 19, 2019, 03:24:53 AM
Magenta, I’d use the air pumps. Water pumps are usually different things and do need to be kept wet. A cheap aquarium pump will run forever as it’s made to run dry and has no impeller.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 20, 2019, 07:15:41 PM
I had a vent plug membrane failure resulting in 8lb weight gain. Drilled a couple 1/4" holes in the swallow tail, inserted aquarium air tubing, sealed with silicone sealant, made a water trap out of an old pasta sauce bottle, reversed the $23.00 pump (this pulls a 5 torr vacuum), removed the vent plug....wow, evacuating the water very quickly :) I don't know what the LPM is, but you can hear air sounds at the vent plug. The RH is going to be 30-40% this week....should get the job done.

Thanks for this thread guys! It saved me a lot of time.

The air pump was delivered today but mine has two OUTlets for blowing air bubbles into an aquarium. How the heck did you reverse the flow so it sucks? And why does the salt water flowing through your pump not destroy your pump? What am I missing here?? :-\
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 20, 2019, 11:47:22 PM
https://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum-Pump-from-Aquarium-Air-Pump/
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: OkiWild on March 21, 2019, 01:27:02 AM
Interesting thread, for sure. Concerning damage to the foam/laminate bond, I wonder what the effect of a vacuum high enough to actually dry the moisture would be? I have the equipment to pull a 200 liter board down to 50 microns pretty quick...LOL. I see Beasho pulled it down to 25 inHg, and didn't seem to have a problem, but what of the horror stories of sealed boards after a flight. Cabin pressure kept at 10,000' is only a depression of 9.3 inHg from sea level. Maybe just a larger volume race board issue?

Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 21, 2019, 04:14:31 AM

The air pump was delivered today but mine has two OUTlets for blowing air bubbles into an aquarium. How the heck did you reverse the flow so it sucks? And why does the salt water flowing through your pump not destroy your pump? What am I missing here?? :-\

Make a water trap out of an old bottle and lid. Drill two 1/4" holes into the lid and silicone the air tubes. You don't want large volumes of water traveling into the pump.....moisture is okay.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on March 21, 2019, 06:58:21 AM
I found the aquarium pump 'good' for getting 85% of the water out of the board.  However the aquarium pump would probably work to get 95% of the water out IF you attack the ding right away.  It could even get you to 11.

The benefit of either a full tilt vacuum pump, or lower negative pressure aquarium pump is that you can put your board in the sun.  What typically fries boards in the sun is air and water expansion creating internal pressure and therefore delamination.   

Even with a small amount of vacuum this risk is virtually eliminated.  This means that you can put your board in direct sunlight (maybe not in Hawaii) and then start sucking and get the advantages of both heat, low pressure and NO risk of delamination. 

Here was my older Paddle Surf Hawaii that had gained weight.  I did a few rounds in the sun with 15/64" holes and irrigation tubing and managed to reduce 1/2 pound.  I was hoping for more. 

This board would historically delam in minutes under the hot sun (probably because it was water logged).  No problem under vacuum.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on March 21, 2019, 07:37:24 AM
That's pretty cool Beasho. 

I wonder which is more effective, attaching the vacuum at the high point or the low point in this situation.

Hey, is that red and black PSH the same board as in the first picture? ;D ;D

Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 21, 2019, 11:28:37 AM
https://www.instructables.com/id/Vacuum-Pump-from-Aquarium-Air-Pump/

Well crap. I didn't know it had to be a Tetra so I ordered a different air pump because it has a little more pressure and more positive reviews. I'll send this one back and order the Tetra.

Are you done sucking all of the water out? Did you suck it while leaving it in the sun? How much weight did you pull out?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 21, 2019, 04:25:26 PM
Magentawave, down 6 lb, so far and yes it has been in the sun a couple of days.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: PonoBill on March 21, 2019, 07:32:48 PM
Wow, that's three quarts of water.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on March 22, 2019, 04:43:05 AM
PB, after drilling the holes, most of it dripped out the first 24 hours. The vacuum process is very slow in removing the water. Placing it in the sun seems to help....if I had a G5 vibrator to shake things up then maybe a few more ounces might come out.....(just an idea guys).

On another note, my buddy received a DW 5'11" the other day and loves it! Super stable. Hope to try it this weekend. :)
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 24, 2019, 11:27:05 AM
I've been using the aquarium pump for the last couple days with the deck vent open and it has pulled very little water out. The bulk of the water (which was a lot!) happened BEFORE I started using the pump from the hole in the tail. The interesting thing is that you can hear the deck vent hissing as it sucks in air with the pump on. I'm thinking that the final phase of drying the board out won't happen until we start getting hot sunny days here so the pump can get warm air flowing through the EPS. In lieu of no warm sunny days, I think a way to blow warm air into the deck vent while the pump sucks at the tail should do a good job of drying out the foam. Actually, it would probably be better to close the deck vent (*if it worked) and drill another hole in the nose so the warm air flows from nose to tail.

Should I be leaving the deck vent open while using the pump?

*Creek very kindly offered to send me a new deck vent plug when he returns from Portugal soon. :)
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on March 24, 2019, 11:51:59 AM
Should I be leaving the deck vent open while using the pump?

Yes! or drill additional holes.

What I learned from this whole process is that you need a healthy combination of 1) Vacuum  2) Heat  3) Flow

To remove water.

This is difficult to do because with flow you lose vacuum.  When you apply the heat, or the vacuum, the water will vaporize.  Unless you get it OUT of the board you are net ZERO impact.  So while you may not SEE the moisture if you maintain the flow under heat and vacuum you may be drawing out the water vapor.  It just takes time BUT is 100% dependent on having flow through the board. 
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on March 24, 2019, 04:08:03 PM
Should I be leaving the deck vent open while using the pump?

Yes! or drill additional holes.

What I learned from this whole process is that you need a healthy combination of 1) Vacuum  2) Heat  3) Flow

To remove water.

This is difficult to do because with flow you lose vacuum.  When you apply the heat, or the vacuum, the water will vaporize.  Unless you get it OUT of the board you are net ZERO impact.  So while you may not SEE the moisture if you maintain the flow under heat and vacuum you may be drawing out the water vapor.  It just takes time BUT is 100% dependent on having flow through the board.

Got it. I suspected that so since the problem started at the air vent (which means there's water forward of the vent) I taped over it and drilled a hole in the nose so there's flow from nose to tail now.

Thanks
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on April 09, 2019, 07:53:22 PM
I've been running the aquarium pump 24/7 for about 2 1/2 weeks and little by little my Sunova is feeling pretty darn close to its original weight. It hasn't been that warm since I started drying so I only see moisture in the tubes with the occasional water drop. However, there was one hot sunny day last week that resulted in about an inch of water in a jar with a diameter of about 3". So, those results got me to thinking that if it's sunny (but not too hot) that tenting the board in black visqueen could expedite the drying process. Anyone done that?

P.S. The culprit was the deck vent and Rick (Creek) was kind enough to send sent me a new vent after returning from Portugal. Thanks again, Rick! You da man. ;D
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on April 10, 2019, 04:40:52 AM
Glad to hear it's almost there! Capping the holes in mine today and hopefully riding it tomorrow. That tent could produce a lot of heat. My friend used that to heat and bend an old plastic windsurfer a long time ago....watch the temp!
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on April 10, 2019, 10:56:39 AM
Glad to hear it's almost there! Capping the holes in mine today and hopefully riding it tomorrow. That tent could produce a lot of heat. My friend used that to heat and bend an old plastic windsurfer a long time ago....watch the temp!

Yes, for sure! I would use the black tent method on cool days only. Thanks for all of your help here with the picture of how you did it and the link with instructions on how to reverse it.

By the way, if the holes you drill in your board are slightly smaller than the diameter of the plastic tubing then there's no need to glue the tube to the board.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Surfside on April 10, 2019, 12:41:08 PM
By the way, if the holes you drill in your board are slightly smaller than the diameter of the plastic tubing then there's no need to glue the tube to the board.

Awesome, I'll do that next time. Thanks
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on April 12, 2019, 02:33:13 PM
Slow and Steady seems to be working.
The board lady suggested that THROUGHPUT would be necessary.  I have 2 holes in the bottom of the board 15/64" and ONE at the top of the board.

It appears as though the weight is dropping at a rate of 1/10 lbs per day for the last 5 days. . . .

Yes - Drill 15/64" Holes.  The inexpensive irrigation tubing is 1/4" and makes a snug fit into the hole.  No need for tape or glue.

Then the 1/4" dowel fits in tight.  I used Gorilla glue on the dowel with a touch of Epoxy to seal it up on the top.  Cover with Clear tape until dry.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: sflinux on May 10, 2019, 08:27:37 AM
Beasho, I love all of your posts.  Thank you so much for contributing your posts to this forum, please keep it up.
1) Dehumidifier
How about a dehumidifier? I remember seeing someone using this with success.
https://www.swaylocks.com/forums/drying-out-waterlogged-board-repair (https://www.swaylocks.com/forums/drying-out-waterlogged-board-repair)
One thing that could be going on with a heater (or daytime sunlight), is you are effectively drying the air. 
I picture a box that you put the board, dehumifier, and vacuum inside.  With a vacuum, and "dry box" the equilibrium of "wet" vapor inside the board, will push that to evaporate faster.  I would think this would be gentler on the board, and possibly use less energy.  Be curious as to which is more effective.
2) Rinse the damaged area.
I read somewhere else that if you have a water inside, if it is salt water, you want to rinse it with fresh water, to help dilute the salt crystals.  Then dry the board after, else you will be left with salt crystals inside the board, which will add to the weight, and more importantly will not bind to resin.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: blackeye on May 10, 2019, 11:05:38 AM

...2) Rinse the damaged area.
I read somewhere else that if you have a water inside, if it is salt water, you want to rinse it with fresh water, to help dilute the salt crystals.  Then dry the board after, else you will be left with salt crystals inside the board, which will add to the weight, and more importantly will not bind to resin.

I hope others are saying that and not just me. I also propose to do a second rinse with alcohol of some strength, which should not damage anything inside the board (except uncured epoxy). Then the vacuuming. The evaporation should be far faster and more complete than with fresh water.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on May 10, 2019, 07:34:10 PM
Beasho, I love all of your posts.  Thank you so much for contributing your posts to this forum, please keep it up.
2) Rinse the damaged area.
I read somewhere else that if you have a water inside, if it is salt water, you want to rinse it with fresh water, to help dilute the salt crystals.  Then dry the board after, else you will be left with salt crystals inside the board, which will add to the weight, and more importantly will not bind to resin.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here because you're going to sand the damaged area and wipe with acetone or alcohol before proceeding with the resin anyway.



Slow and Steady seems to be working.
Then the 1/4" dowel fits in tight.  I used Gorilla glue on the dowel with a touch of Epoxy to seal it up on the top.  Cover with Clear tape until dry.

What's the point of bothering with a dowel when you can use tootsie roll epoxy instead?
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: jrandy on May 11, 2019, 05:00:59 AM
No good reason for acetone around EPS and epoxy.
-Acetone eats/melts/wrecks EPS
-Acetone is linked to epoxy allergies as part of the delivery mechanism
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on May 13, 2019, 04:50:29 AM
wow--the salt crystals problem is a whole new issue--ive never heard of anyone rinsing the interior of a board with water, let alone alcohol--seems weve all been living with salt in our repaired boards

non sequitur: i keep a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol in the car--spray my feet between the toes after a surf--prevents cheese/fungal build up after being in booties for a few hours--dries the feet before putting in shoes/socks
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on May 13, 2019, 07:01:24 AM
What's the point of bothering with a dowel when you can use tootsie roll epoxy instead?

The dowel with Gorilla glue is structural and fills the hole succinctly and is fast.  Probably waterproof but I wouldn't totally trust it.

Epoxy stick would work but a touch overkill and messier.  I prefer to stick the dowel in 1/16" too deep.  Then cover with a dab of colored epoxy and top it off with clear packaging tape overnight.  Clean look and solid.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Beasho on May 13, 2019, 07:04:10 AM
wow--the salt crystals problem is a whole new issue--ive never heard of anyone rinsing the interior of a board with water, let alone alcohol--seems weve all been living with salt in our repaired boards

IF I was going to rinse I would probably use distilled water.  It would LAP up the salt and with the vacuum could be immediately sucked back out of the hole.  I have found the vacuum to be VERY effective on new dings.  It takes no time (e.g. less than a day) to suck out 'fresh' ding water.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: magentawave on May 13, 2019, 01:28:36 PM
wow--the salt crystals problem is a whole new issue--ive never heard of anyone rinsing the interior of a board with water, let alone alcohol--seems weve all been living with salt in our repaired boards

Nah, the amount of salt crystals left behind is so infinitesimal and would contribute literally nothing to the weight. As long as the resin adheres then I wouldn't give it a second thought.



What's the point of bothering with a dowel when you can use tootsie roll epoxy instead?

The dowel with Gorilla glue is structural and fills the hole succinctly and is fast.  Probably waterproof but I wouldn't totally trust it.

Epoxy stick would work but a touch overkill and messier.  I prefer to stick the dowel in 1/16" too deep.  Then cover with a dab of colored epoxy and top it off with clear packaging tape overnight.  Clean look and solid.

Tootsie roll epoxy for filling the two holes is super easy, fast - and CLEAN. No procuring of dowels, gorilla glue and epoxy. No cutting dowels and applying gorilla glue and epoxy and no sanding. With the tootsie roll, you cut a piece > mix between thumb and index finger > jam into hole > smooth with a wet finger > DONE. It's easy to drill out later too. If you want to match the color then you can "countersink" the tootsie roll epoxy a 1/16" and fill with matching epoxy. Try it sometime. It's way less work. ;)



Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: eastbound on May 13, 2019, 01:42:25 PM
tootsie roll epoxy=plumber's epoxy

super handy stuff--glove up and push it where it needs to go--wet the glove and smooth it even--tho ive always used it for small fills, and reshaping crunched rail tail etc, and then glassed over--ive rolled it into a little snake and slipped it into a seam crack at the rail/bottom edge--you can push it just right to handle the glass without a bulge or dent--

but i always glass over

i am a creation of the zone, and always got impression that, to know it'll stay dry, gotta glass over

i worry about a plug working loose

i only use gorilla glue for bigger voids, where it too excels
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: Bean on May 13, 2019, 01:46:42 PM
wow--the salt crystals problem is a whole new issue--ive never heard of anyone rinsing the interior of a board with water, let alone alcohol--seems weve all been living with salt in our repaired boards

IF I was going to rinse I would probably use distilled water.  It would LAP up the salt and with the vacuum could be immediately sucked back out of the hole.  I have found the vacuum to be VERY effective on new dings.  It takes no time (e.g. less than a day) to suck out 'fresh' ding water.

Absolutely, the water doesn't get a chance to migrate throughout the EPS.
Title: Re: Build a Vacuum System to Dry Boards
Post by: blackeye on May 13, 2019, 06:48:10 PM

IF I was going to rinse I would probably use distilled water.  It would LAP up the salt and with the vacuum could be immediately sucked back out of the hole.  I have found the vacuum to be VERY effective on new dings.  It takes no time (e.g. less than a day) to suck out 'fresh' ding water.

IF I was going to rinse I would skip the fresh water and use alcohol. It usually has water in it and will carry away salt, AND evaporate readily.