Standup Zone Forum

General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: toolate on November 28, 2018, 01:21:26 PM

Title: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: toolate on November 28, 2018, 01:21:26 PM
I see lots of JL Foil Sups for sale at good prices on Craigslist...
Just a function of too many people who bought and didnt like? Or is it something particular to those boards that folks are ditching them?
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: PonoBill on November 28, 2018, 02:01:42 PM
Jimmy had the first production foilboards available. He did the same thing in the SUP ramp up. The first boards from him work fine, but aren't performance boards. His next generation is leading edge. Probably what you're seeing on Craigslist is the first gen like the one I bought. Jimmy is super quick on the trigger.
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: toolate on November 28, 2018, 02:31:06 PM
thanks. do you think a learner would see a difference?
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: exiled on November 28, 2018, 02:39:14 PM
Lots of Go Foil Maliko 160s too. Its just what was first to market. I don't think anybody realized just how small you could go on a foil sup. 7'6s seem gigantic now. If you told me two years ago people would be on sub 6'0 boards I would have told you that you were crazy.
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: Beasho on November 28, 2018, 02:44:57 PM
thanks. do you think a learner would see a difference?

No!  Learning you will be fine on a 1st generation board - Assuming the price is right.

The smaller Kalama style boards ARE better but I recently went back to a 7' 4" L41 board when my 6' 6" Easy Foiler was in the shop for repairs.

3 Things:

After getting good on the 6' 6" Easy foiler I haven't noticed much downside switching back to my 7' 4" X 30" L41 shaped board @ 17.5 lbs. 

Pumping will be reduced by the longer board but when you are learning the extra length adds 'stability.' 

This is also helpful in bigger surf when you are trying NOT to blow up and keep the nose down.  Frankly there is NO hope of turning hard when you are going 20+ mph (at least not for a beginner like me with only 225 sessions).

Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: PonoBill on November 28, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
thanks. do you think a learner would see a difference?

Yes, it would work better for you. Performance boards can be a handful, even one built oversized for a moose like me. My JL 8'5" is easy money to stand on and catch waves. Mr. Fugly at 7'2" X a whole bunch of inches is a big board, but the performance features that help it get off the water easily also make for a lot of dunking.
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: jondrums on November 29, 2018, 01:23:48 AM

  • The Longer Board Catches waves better - PERIOD!
  • When waves get big - Point #2 become paramount to catching and getting into overhead surf


I have not found this to be true for the few foil boards I have ridden.  I find the shorter board I am riding now much easier to get into a wave versus the longer board I was riding before.  The longer board I had to paddle up to speed to catch the wave, then rise up.  The shorter board allows me to pump up into the wave.  I also think the step tail makes a huge difference (effectively a shorter board as you are getting it out of the water).
Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
Post by: peterp on November 29, 2018, 04:39:29 AM

    • The Longer Board Catches waves better - PERIOD!
    • When waves get big - Point #2 become paramount to catching and getting into overhead surf


    I have not found this to be true for the few foil boards I have ridden.  I find the shorter board I am riding now much easier to get into a wave versus the longer board I was riding before.  The longer board I had to paddle up to speed to catch the wave, then rise up.  The shorter board allows me to pump up into the wave.  I also think the step tail makes a huge difference (effectively a shorter board as you are getting it out of the water).

    This an interesting topic, my first board was my old converted 8'10, then I built a 7'10 and now I'm busy getting a 6'10. In the smaller waves I foil in (up to just overhead) both boards have been fine for me. For downwind I've had more success with the 7'10 and I'm hoping the 6'10 will be even better for downwind.

    First challenge on downwind is getting up on wing and a slightly longer board helps with a little board-speed but it's more difficult to pump up. Once you are up shorter is always better. I just wonder if the pump up technique is substantially easier on a shorter board and if it then negates the need for boardspeed in launching?
    [/list]
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: Evan Lloyd on November 29, 2018, 12:07:51 PM
    I had a conversation about this recently with a buddy of mine.  I have a 8-0x30 Starboard and a 6-0 x 30 Kalama.  Both boards have advantages and disadvantages.  My Kalma is just better at all things surf/foil related but it can be challenging to balance and paddle - especially when things get windy or choppy.  I took the Kalama out to Mavericks the first weekend I got it and could barely stand up out there, on a moderately windy morning.  I felt like a kook.  It was embarrassing.  If I would have had my Starboard I would have been much happier.  At San-O the Kalama is so f-ing fun to surf that I leave the beach with a huge grin.  My Starboard is super easy to balance and paddle.  It also flies well.  But it is a sticky board, meaning it does not release from the water as well as the Kalama.  At my size, there is no way I can pump that thing into a wave, but I've seen these skinny youngsters doing it.  I never felt like the Starboard was holding me back, as I am still just learning.  That said when I saw a guy pump into a wave on his Kalama - a wave that wasn't even breaking - a wave I could have never caught on the Starboard - I called Dave and ordered one. 

    If you are just learning, it's kind of tricky to find the right balance.  You want a board that lifts off easily and that you can fly under control.  On the other hand, it doesn't matter how awesome your board is at taking off and flight if you can't balance on it long enough to catch the wave.  This is just a guess, but I think if you can confidently SUP surf on a 8-6 or shorter board, you probably have the balance to foil a sub 7' foil rig.  Just be prepared for a few kook sessions where you fall a lot.  One thing not mentioned a lot is the wing size.  Larger wings make everything easier.  Everything.  So go big on the wing and then graduate down to smaller wings as your skills improve.  Right now I'm on an IWA but I started on the M200. 

    Good thread boys

    Take care
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: peterp on November 29, 2018, 09:19:53 PM
    I rode one of the early Kalama's and I also found it very unstable, granted it was only 26" wide (forget the length). The deeply bevelled rails which gives it such great release takes away all primary stability especially since the board I tried had no concaves or other trick bottom shapes to aid with stability. The wing does add primary stability and I realised that with normal rails you can ride an inch narrower board (than your normal surfboard) because of the wing, but with the heavy bevels you might have to go one inch wider. Obviously outline and to a degree rocker also play a part but rails have a big say in stability.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2018, 08:38:43 AM
    I think Mr. Fugly is probably the widest Kalama board Dave has made. It's pretty stable, but the JL 8'5" X32" Hovercraft I started on is much more stable. For a beginner, that stability is usually very important. Of course, it depends on the beginner. People with great balance don't need it. Geezers like me need all we can get. Bill Boyum (Headmount) was struggling on a smaller JL board, but on the 8'5" he's progressing rapidly because he can focus on foot position and pitch control instead of fighting to stay up.

    To PeterP's point, I think Mr. Fugly is an inch wider (7'2" X 33") and it's substantially less stable, both laterally and front to back. That deep bevel in the tail means if you step back clumsily the board won't save you--it kicks up and dumps you. But I can pump that huge hunk of foam and glass up off a wave. It doesn't bounce up and down like Austins little sliver, but it pumps all the same, in a dignified manner as befits my modest skills. The JL board will NOT.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 30, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
    In defense of Dave and everyone doing bevels, It can be done without hurting stability at all. In fact, it can be done with massive stability, so go wild with the bevels and be totally non-stick.  It took a lot of prototypes to figure it out, but Iím seeing Daveís newest stuff with some of the things Iíve figured out too.

    Iíll spills the beans....

    When youíve got near 5Ē of thickness to work with, you can get really creative. Think about the latest 14 foot race boards with vertical walls for rails. You are not going to sink those rails, period. Same with foil boards. You have got the potential to build a massive vertical wall on that rail that will not sink, wobble, dip, no mater how clumsy. Haha.

    Never forgot, we donít surf our rails. So use them for stability. Stop shaping them down into something sexy that does nothing for you.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: PonoBill on November 30, 2018, 10:30:02 AM
    Saw one of your prone foilboards here in Maui DW, A tiny little thing but the guy is rocking on it. He bought it from a friend who decided it was too small for him. Gorgeous workmanship.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: peterp on November 30, 2018, 10:43:24 AM
    In defense of Dave and everyone doing bevels, It can be done without hurting stability at all. In fact, it can be done with massive stability, so go wild with the bevels and be totally non-stick.  It took a lot of prototypes to figure it out, but Iím seeing Daveís newest stuff with some of the things Iíve figured out too.

    Iíll spills the beans....

    When youíve got near 5Ē of thickness to work with, you can get really creative. Think about the latest 14 foot race boards with vertical walls for rails. You are not going to sink those rails, period. Same with foil boards. You have got the potential to build a massive vertical wall on that rail that will not sink, wobble, dip, no mater how clumsy. Haha.

    Never forgot, we donít surf our rails. So use them for stability. Stop shaping them down into something sexy that does nothing for you.

    Good point, but the bevel still takes away primary stability - keeping meat in the rail maintains secondary stability. Starboard has gone for a much less radical approach with what they call a chamfered rail - it might be a better compromise - we'll see, my next one will be bevels and after that I might scale it back.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: Dwight (DW) on November 30, 2018, 01:01:08 PM
    The reality versus the theroy is not always the same. We are in new territory.

    The chamfered railed change the wobble frequency to something miserable for me personally.

    It blows my mind to think back to my first dedicated foil board at 7í3 x 30 with no chines, regular rails, regular bottom. Fast forward to today on a 5í11 x 28.5 with all the bells and whistles, and it is easily twice as stable as that original.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: SUPeter on December 03, 2018, 04:52:26 AM
    Yep, we are all  thinking of, or planning "our next one".  At least I am anyway.  My first experience with my first Fugly build was a little disheartening.  At 6 feet x 30 inches it felt very small.  On small waves it seemed to work just fine but I much prefer my 7'4" SIMSUP for larger waves.  The fugly feels less stable and I realize I need to spend far more time learning how to use it correctly.  In flat water, it seems more stable than the SIMSUP but throw in some chop and wave action and things change quickly.  So now I fantasize about a board somewhere in between.  Smaller side bevels, smaller rear bevel. a more traditional plan shape.  Between making a new extra large wing, a new board and other adaptations.  I may be a little busy in the foreseeable future.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: JEG on March 29, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
    What do think of the 1st gen JL to compare to the 2nd gen JL foil boards for a beginnerI? I understand the new rails and tail makes it better. Also, do closely match the board volume to your sup surf with foil board at less lenght about the same width?
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: PonoBill on March 29, 2019, 11:02:17 PM
    The reason foiling is so challenging is that there are so many moving parts. even talking about board stability is complex, because the question becomes "stable doing what???'" My new 6'11" is super stable sometimes, but in oily rollers it wobbles around so much it about makes me sick. It won't catch a wave in a straight paddle as easily as Mr. Fugly. but if I push one corner down as the wave lifts the tail and slice into it with a little pump it will catch a much smaller wave than fugly can. It's a weird sport. I'm glad it came around when I could still have fun with it.
    Title: Re: JL Foil Sups flood market?
    Post by: fatfish on March 31, 2019, 05:55:37 PM
    I agree with what PBill says above.

    I have the 1st Gen JL Hovercraft, obviously it doesnt have all the bells and whistles (tapered tail, beveled rails, etc) of the next gen model.  But having said that i am not sure those design efficiencies would have helped me learn to foil any more quickly than the 1st gen.   With foiling, there are so many moving parts to learn and ideally having one component (board) be stable/constant helps you to focus on learning to foil.   6 months later i am ready to confidently move onto a smaller board.  I still enjoy riding the board tho, very comfortable.

    BTW, i dont seen any other JL sups flooding the market here in so cal.