Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: Biggreen on October 26, 2018, 04:55:51 AM
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I’ve been SUP surfing for almost 6 years now. And as I’m sure we all remember, there was quite a bit of animosity for the SUP crowd around then. Having come from a paddling background and not a surfing background, I admit to having had some trepidation the first times I showed up at our local surf break. So I thought (naively and mistakenly, of course) that I might get at least a little respect if I paddled out standing up. We are on stand up paddleboards, right? I figured being on my knees would just make me more of a target for the haters derision. So I’ve always paddled out standing up, no matter the conditions. Now having good paddling skills certainly was an advantage for me. And early on I realized I enjoy the fight out. It helps me get my feet under me and my groove going. On the days when the inside is thumping, I get a very single minded determination about making it out without falling. Oh, and of course the proner crowd doesn’t give a shit either way.
Now I realize that age, physical limitations, balance issues, board size, etc, are all factors that come in to play. But I think we should be upright if possible. Doing so, in my opinion, forces you to develop the skill set that only makes being on the outside and catching waves that much easier.
I’m not sure it really matters, but for reference, I’m 60, 185 lbs and my main boards are from 7’6” to 9’2”, 26-27.5” wide, all under 100 liters.
So, I’m curious. Laying down, kneeling, or standing, how do you get out?
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Prone or on my feet, just depends on conditions, wave periods, size, etc. Usually a mix of both, I'll prone when I know there's some whitewater that I'll have to stop for and dive under, then hop to my feet to make a last rush over incoming waves, or weight back and pop over. Sometimes I paddle prone just to give my legs some rest.
Never on my knees, it's kinda pointless as I feel more stable standing up, and all it does is create knee dings in your board.
So, yes if you are surfing, never paddle out on your knees IMO.
For reference, I'm 37, 6'0, 170 lbs. and ride between 100-110L for my primary boards, I have a 160L big floaty noserider.
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I'm 61 and 170lbs.
I can't prone paddle. My shoulders and neck can't take it. I try to stand up as much as possible and only paddle on my knees when I'm exhausted or need to get out of the danger zone in a hurry.
I find it nearly impossible to paddle over the whitewater on my knees. I usually get hit in the stomach and chest pretty hard by it and rarely make it over successfully that way.
Paddling over while standing is easier for me but I often fall. That's why I hate beach breaks. Too much wasted energy trying to get back out. I spend 99% of my time at point or reef breaks where I don't have to deal with much whitewater.
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We have a big, talented SUP crew on Cape Cod.
The ripper SUPsters frequently kneel down to chill between waves, paddling out or just chatting.
When you're 70 and can't sit on your board (hips won't open wide enough to sit down)
The only rest I get is the occasional knee paddle out.
I do whatever I feel like doing, I am not concerned with what people think.
Why try to fit in a box defined by a label?
I fall over a lot
My friends yell "it's called standup Rick!" ;D ;D
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LOL, Rick.
I find myself more and more kneepaddling on the way out to the point break as
long as there is a clear channel or very small amounts of white water. Just a warmup
of different muscles - I think kneepaddling uses the stomach more. If a larger ball
of white water is coming, I usually hop up to my feet to go over it. As others said,
I find it difficult to go over larger whitewater on my knees without risking getting clobbered
by the front of the board kicking up and/or me ending up tanking into the water - I'm much
better on my feet. I usually only paddle on my knees for a couple hundred yards or less
as a warmup before I hop up. Sometimes if I'm caught inside and tired I'll just float a bit
on my knees, but I usually hop up if any sizeable whitewater comes my way.
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I do what ever gets me out to have fun, depending on the size, I will prone with paddle under chest or on my knees. or whatever it takes.
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I try to stand mostly because it's also my balance training but I love the fight too. I practice it often so despite my shitty balance I'm pretty good at it. To me it's a big part of the enjoyment. That said....it all depends. If I'm a bit tired and there is a lull I'd miss if I didn't motor out on my knees instead of standing....I'm motoring for the shoulder to get outside the next set.....then sucking wind for a minute.
There can actually be some danger in being too good at it....I paddled out almost hair dry in massive Maria waves last fall....into surf that was beyond my abilities and almost killed me..... :o
Not that I care but I think some of the prone surfers around do understand the difficulty and appreciate it...they're happy to see that you can control your board.
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The only time I knee paddle is just before I stand up or planning on standing up soon. I've surfed my whole life, so prone paddling feels more natural. In big surf, I'll prone paddle if I'm in the impact zone. Plus I'm about 5'5 on my knees, so whats the point. I stand up 90% of the time, but on long lulls between sets, I'll sit and BS with my friends. Specially on my short board. I was out on my short board a few days ago, and had to have a paddle in the water at all times. Constantly bracing right to left. Everyone else is just standing there, with a lot more volume, completely floating on the surface. I ditched my short board and grabbed my 10'r. Ahhhhh. To just stand and not have to continually brace is where I'm at these days ;D
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Sounds like the lead in at a head-banger concert, only backwards. "On your feet or on your knees for Metallica!!"
OK, maybe that just me.
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I kneel a lot paddling out and don’t really care what other people in the line up think of it. Like Biggreen says, they don’t really give a shit anyway. I look for calm spots to get up in a creaky old man sort of way.
Badda-boom badda-bing, I’m up.
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My knees have been reconstructed three times. And the right tibfib broke in five places. Ever see the Joe Theisman vid?
Prone with the paddle at my chest or standing tall and proud!
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On my Rockaway beach break high frequency wind swell, I do a lot of knee paddling if I am in the white water zone. I wait until I see a lull, pop on to my board, and knee paddle like hell. In the time it takes to stand and balance, I feel like I can get in 3 or 4 strokes. Once up, I generally try and get over the waves standing. Although in bigger foam balls, I jump off and grab the handle. I am getting more and more comfortable standing over the foam, and this topic is making me want to stand up more. I don't much like prone paddling, as I was never a surfer, and my board is 32" wide...
ps., I just finished my first year of SUP surfing...
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I'm 61 and 170lbs.
I can't prone paddle. My shoulders and neck can't take it.
I find it nearly impossible to paddle over the whitewater on my knees.
Ditto. Having been a carpenter for 38 years, my shoulders, particularly my right one, are hard pressed to do certain things. Since my right side is my bottom hand for paddling it makes it ok. Just reaching up overhead is painful.
And I’m impressed to see people make it over whitewater on their knees. I can’t develop any power in my stroke that way.
I’m glad to hear pretty much everyone goes out standing. And I get the limitations for those that struggle with it. Stoney, I find it particularly impressive you go out standing, because I well remember your talking of your balance and vertigo issues. But I could see it being a good exercise, and I love that you enjoy the fight out as well!
As for cred from the prone crowd, a buddy of mine was right. He told me showing up and surfing boards I’ve built myself would be what would get me instant cred and some minor respect from the proners....and he was absolutely right. Initially that was what went further than anything in my favor.
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On my Rockaway beach break high frequency wind swell, I do a lot of knee paddling if I am in the white water zone. I wait until I see a lull, pop on to my board, and knee paddle like hell. In the time it takes to stand and balance, I feel like I can get in 3 or 4 strokes. Once up, I generally try and get over the waves standing. Although in bigger foam balls, I jump off and grab the handle. I am getting more and more comfortable standing over the foam, and this topic is making me want to stand up more. I don't much like prone paddling, as I was never a surfer, and my board is 32" wide...
ps., I just finished my first year of SUP surfing...
Sean, we've got to get you out to the Hudson. Head up my way for some great flatwater.
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. Ever see the Joe Theisman vid?
Big , I remember that game, still kringe
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Kneel down or stand up when getting out to the surf is the main objective?
Here’s a quote from Greg Noll on whether or not he would tow into large surf if it was available in his time; “I don’t care if I was shot out of an elephant’s ass as long as it got me into big waves.”
Go surfing.
End of story
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Only kneel when its windy or choppy so as to not use up
my energy fighting the wind or balancing.
I also try not to go out when its windy or choppy on a SUP.
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AMEN, Southwesterly!!!!!
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what sw said
do what works for you to have fun and be safe (esp with others)
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Kneel down or stand up when getting out to the surf is the main objective?
Here’s a quote from Greg Noll on whether or not he would tow into large surf if it was available in his time; “I don’t care if I was shot out of an elephant’s ass as long as it got me into big waves.”
Go surfing.
End of story
This!
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I recently entered my first SUS contest. I found it faster to prone paddle through the waist to chest high sets then stand once I’m outside. When the heat was over the judges reminded me that the rules state that the competitor needs to be paddling as much as possible, prone or knee paddling can lower a competitors score as wave transition from end of ride back out to lineup can be scored.
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I didn't think anyone was being judgmental. I thought it was just a question about how each of us do it....there is no wrong way.
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I recently entered my first SUS contest. I found it faster to prone paddle through the waist to chest high sets then stand once I’m outside. When the heat was over the judges reminded me that the rules state that the competitor needs to be paddling as much as possible, prone or knee paddling can lower a competitors score as wave transition from end of ride back out to lineup can be scored.
I would say, don't enter anymore contests. Just enjoy surfing.
That being said... If there is free beer envolved, then sign up.
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On my Rockaway beach break high frequency wind swell, I do a lot of knee paddling if I am in the white water zone. I wait until I see a lull, pop on to my board, and knee paddle like hell. In the time it takes to stand and balance, I feel like I can get in 3 or 4 strokes. Once up, I generally try and get over the waves standing. Although in bigger foam balls, I jump off and grab the handle. I am getting more and more comfortable standing over the foam, and this topic is making me want to stand up more. I don't much like prone paddling, as I was never a surfer, and my board is 32" wide...
ps., I just finished my first year of SUP surfing...
Sean, we've got to get you out to the Hudson. Head up my way for some great flatwater.
sounds like fun! Unfortunately my 10'6" is in Massachusetts.
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I recently entered my first SUS contest. I found it faster to prone paddle through the waist to chest high sets then stand once I’m outside. When the heat was over the judges reminded me that the rules state that the competitor needs to be paddling as much as possible, prone or knee paddling can lower a competitors score as wave transition from end of ride back out to lineup can be scored.
I would say, don't enter anymore contests. Just enjoy surfing.
That being said... If there is free beer envolved, then sign up.
Agree. Contests are the most effective way to ruin your fun. Just surf and enjoy the ocean.
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I remember seeing this at the time... then, it popped up on my recent list. (K'rist.. YouTube knows how I get outside, not just what I watch!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECyFTXvIUo
It looks like here ...no lanes ...ground rather than wind swell. Guy #2 looks perhaps a recent proner conversion? Guy #1 bails before he needs to late in the vid ...'maybe tired. 'Hope there are no rocks S. of them.
Jim
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Why would they even bother surfing there? First wave they catch they will be right back inside and fighting their way out again. Hardly seems worth it to me.
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On my Rockaway beach break high frequency wind swell, I do a lot of knee paddling if I am in the white water zone. I wait until I see a lull, pop on to my board, and knee paddle like hell. In the time it takes to stand and balance, I feel like I can get in 3 or 4 strokes. Once up, I generally try and get over the waves standing. Although in bigger foam balls, I jump off and grab the handle. I am getting more and more comfortable standing over the foam, and this topic is making me want to stand up more. I don't much like prone paddling, as I was never a surfer, and my board is 32" wide...
ps., I just finished my first year of SUP surfing...
Sean, we've got to get you out to the Hudson. Head up my way for some great flatwater.
sounds like fun! Unfortunately my 10'6" is in Massachusetts.
I have loaners!
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I remember seeing this at the time... then, it popped up on my recent list. (K'rist.. YouTube knows how I get outside, not just what I watch!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECyFTXvIUo
It looks like here ...no lanes ...ground rather than wind swell. Guy #2 looks perhaps a recent proner conversion? Guy #1 bails before he needs to late in the vid ...'maybe tired. 'Hope there are no rocks S. of them.
Jim
That’s exactly the circumstances where you *should* knee paddle. It is quicker than paddling any other way - if you train for it - and these guys would have saved themselves a lot of falls and general f*rting around. I surf most at a spot nearly a mile offshore and to get there have to pass through a very rippy and confused area. So I actually train to be able to knee paddle. If you get your whole body into it, it can be brutally effective over fairly short distances, and saves energy and your legs for actually surfing. Not everyone can do it, though. Some people just can’t kneel comfortably on their board.
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Well that video is almost unwatchable... out of empathy...
Why wouldn't one paddle out on the knees? I guess I have some sort of internal calculus that goes on that lets me choose between knees and standing, and its often knees. And part of that is, as Area 10 mentions, preserving my legs for surfing...
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I have a much better chance of getting over the whitewater standing than I do on my knees, but if I can't stand up on the board then knees are my only choice.
My back, neck and shoulders can not handle paddling prone. That's what got me into standup in the first place.
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Those guys wouldn't have gotten anywhere on their knees. If you're on your feet, on a board that is stable enough for you, that kind of whitewater is fairly easy. Whitewater only has your feet and lower legs to push against instead of your body, shaped like a sea anchor, and if you're on your knees you have limited ability to shift your weight. I'm not particularly stable or a particularly strong paddler and I could have gone through that water easily--it looked like a standard Ho'okipa Lanes situation. There wasn't a channel but there were non-breaking sections on every wave. I found myself picking my way through. You get a better perspective from the warm and dry cliff, but they should have seen it, they obviously didn't, and they weren't going to get out on boards they couldn't stand on.
I was foiling today in the Harbor, and an older Hawaiin SUP surfer that I greatly respect was coming out through the middle of one poinding set wave after another. He was on a 9'8" Foote Triton, and he slid through that head-high whitewater like a knife through butter. Step one--get a board you can stand on.
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Those guys wouldn't have gotten anywhere on their knees. If you're on your feet, on a board that is stable enough for you...
Your first point is wrong IMO - sprinting on your knees is faster than sprinting standing up (and then you jump to your feet for going over the waves), as long as you can do it. From what you have said many times about your physical limitations, it sounds like maybe you can’t, comfortably, so maybe you have not experienced this. It does take practice. And kneeling also allows you to be more stable on a smaller board, and saves energy, all of which would have helped those guys greatly.
But your second point, that getting out is a lot easier if you are on a board you find very stable, and that a stable board can allow you to get out with the ease and speed that you could only do on a smaller board when on your knees, is a good one. I guess it’s down to whether you want to trade small-board wave nimbleness for ease of getting out. Some people will go to any lengths to try to be Kai.
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I think a combination of the two is called for there.....they missed their best opportunity....right at the start if they had sprinted on their knees over a few and then jumped up.....(use the wave Luke)…...they were out. They screwed around prone paddling and missed it. Success 1/2 the time means waiting for the right moment to go.
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Success 1/2 the time means waiting for the right moment to go.
This is what I was thinking. I (almost) always have a strategy to paddling out in bigger waves. There are lulls between sets. Patience is needed at times like that. That outside set hit just as the more skilled guy was about to make it. The guy stuck on the inside wasn't even prone paddling anymore after a few hits. He was just floating. Time to rest is once you get outside. He'd thrown in the towel pretty early. When I'm prone paddling I roll my board on edge as I go thru the white water. If I'm on my feet and don't make it up and over the wash, I'll still kick my board over the top. If the white water is even bigger, I'll jump off, spin my board towards shore and and use my tail handle. Funny how you get it in your mind that you SUS a really low volume board because of a few ego reinforcing glassy smaller days. Then it sucks big. With all that moving water a few more inches in width and a little more volume sure helps.
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That actually looked fairly easy to me....
Decent interval, so you could get up some speed between waves.
I would 100% dig hard on my knees..... I can go way faster that way and not waste time with my "slow getting to my feet" issues.
1st off they fought the rip
it was going to their left and they kept trying to keep right.
They should have paddled hard as hell slightly left, to get the most boost from the refraction and rip together.
Object? Get far enough offshore, that when you take a set on the head, it doesn't push you all the way in.
I kick my board over, then go deep, to minimize losing ground.
Then hop up and paddle out easily in between sets.
Heck, even standing those guys couldn't paddle fast enough or long enough to make any headway.
Old men always get out easier.... young guys try to overpower it, old guys sneak between peaks.
ha ha, I actually have a video about that..... I should finalize it and post.
shots from last weekend:
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From what you have said many times about your physical limitations, it sounds like maybe you can’t, comfortably, so maybe you have not experienced this.
There's no question that I can't get up quickly enough to be doing anything significant on my knees. Any slower and I'll need a walker railing. I can paddle pretty well on my knees--I paddle six-man canoe all summer--but I'd rather be on my feet all the way out. I can see where an unbroken section is likely to be and head for that, I can see what the wave behind the wave I'm facing is going to do. And I'm not that much faster on my knees. I haven't found that speed is the solution--picking the best line is.
Most important is being on your feet going through the whitewater, and not wobbling around when you need to be picking up speed and getting the timing of your paddle strokes right--you have to be reaching over the foam when it hits your feet. If I staggered to my feet just before the whitewater arrived I couldn't do that.
In this case I'd certainly say: Different strokes...
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The video appears to be in the Solana Beach / Cardiff Area, at first I thought it was just south of Swammy's. There aren't any surfers out which leads me to think they picked a really bad spot/day to paddle out. There are two spots within about a half mile of where the video was filmed where it is much easier to paddle out on a NW or W swell even with chop or huge swell. So it kind of seems moot about feet or knees and more a question of them choosing a bad spot and a bad strategy at the spot they chose. And yes it looks like they don't know what they are doing.
If you try to paddle out on your knees in big surf/ foam piles and aim directly for the waves at 90 degrees you are likely to think paddling on your knees doesn't work. Paddlers who come to SUP who have strong kayak surfing or whitewater paddling techniques know how to quarter the wave, sweep the bow using the foam, pivot on the wave crest and edge the board to use rocker and the wave to keep upright... you can't do that standing up. I guess my point is that a lot of people who say paddling on knees doesn't work, don't know how to do it, and don't have good ability to sink the rails while kneeling. I think it's best to know both standing and kneeling and use what fits the waves, winds and chop.
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I remember seeing this at the time... then, it popped up on my recent list. (K'rist.. YouTube knows how I get outside, not just what I watch!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pECyFTXvIUo
feel like a sup handle would have helped these guys out a bit to keep from getting killed by the white water--miraculous how holding that handle keeps you from getting pushed back. Quite a slog either way...glad it wasn't me being video'd...
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They are on relatively small SUP's - I almost got the sense that they had a bet going, to see if they could paddle out without kneeling.
The key to paddling out is timing, location and total comittment.
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I do both knee and stand up but personally I wouldn't go out in that condition as above vid ;D
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I'm with Creek, that didn't look as hard as those guys were making it. There are lots of place in Hawaii and the Oregon Coast where that would be considered on the easy side. IMHO Oregon is tough to get out in general, almost always three different swell directions and a mix of periods. If you can't punch through head high breaking waves and stay up with two different waves shoving on you, then there isn't much hope except for a few deeply sheltered breaks like Indian Beach and Short Sands that filter out some of the nonsense. Those waves were consistent and came from one direction. If you look at the video with an eye to picking out the best places to take each wave you'll see a good path. The smooth spots move around as the rebound swell and current makes deep spots. Very often the deep areas with minimal whitewater will also be outrushing current--a free ride to the outside. Those guys were almost avoiding the easy way.
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That wasn't that hard....I'd have made that standing all the way at the beginning of the vid. It got a bit sketchy later but even that wasn't impossible....nice payoff outside from the look of it to me.
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agreed--didnt seem a particularly tough paddle out to me--what creek said + I will jump way over the top at times and let my waistleash retain the board--i use knees often in the work zone--i find i get on and get going faster--sometimes 2 quick prone strokes are all there's time for, but enough to get over--you do what you gotta do and what works--so much is the read and not fighting/wasting energy--older wiser more fearful of hits, i am surprised at how i slide through shit dry or close these days
really dont like a big solid perfect hit at my fair age--tho it can be funny when you realize that you are just in the perfect wrong spot for a big set---oh well, here we go......better we take a bit of air.......bye bye.....
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The video was well named.
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That video was hard to watch. Them boys need more time in the harbor just learning how to stand on their freakin' boards before trying to head out in what is otherwise relatively easy whitewater to get through.
Surf stance a little heavier on the nose, stick the nose 6" to a foot under the top of the foam in a form of a "duck dive" while standing, and right on through they would have gone....EZ-PZ. :)
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Only two ways out in the surf make sense to me, prone or stand up. Knees are only better for a very small range of wave size/shape and the worst probability of injury of the three. Good to get a little shoulder prone paddle cross training anyway.
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Yeah there's a reason nobody else is out. There area about 10 better/easier spots within a couple miles. Having SUP surfed many days in that area I can say there is definitely enough water moving around to be a pain in the ass, but those guys are awful!
Fully agree with them having too few liters for their skill level, but more importantly they need to learn to prone paddle. They are paddling like they are crossing a 6" deep reef - but more likely they just didn't come from a surfing background and never learned to paddle.
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Clay posted this video a while back. I think he does an excellent job of studying the topic and putting a video together on it. At the 6:05 mark he gives his take on knee paddling.
Hi!
I have had a flat spell the past few weeks and looking forward to a good swell. Plenty of time to work on this idea I have been chewing on for a while.
I enjoyed putting this video together and am pleased with the outcome. I hope it is helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeo_SgCWvLI
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There's no question that I can't get up quickly enough to be doing anything significant on my knees. Any slower and I'll need a walker railing.
We have a buddy with a really bad knee. He has to get way on the outside before he can stand up. It’s so painful watching him trying to get to his feet I almost have to look away. One of our other buddies pointed out he looks a lot like, and moves a lot like Mickey Rourke in The Wrestler.
Most important is being on your feet going through the whitewater, and not wobbling around when you need to be picking up speed and getting the timing of your paddle strokes right--you have to be reaching over the foam when it hits your feet.
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Absolutely.
If I have momentum when I reach the oncoming waves, I step back, plant that last stroke to climb over, and LAND on a forward stroke on the backside to keep going. Just grabbing the water acts as a brace. This is a common move in whitewater paddling coming off a drop.
If after making it over a few waves I’ve lost my momentum for the rest of the incoming waves in the set, I’ll do the same as above except for often times having to land on a low brace leading into a forward stroke because since I’ve lost my momentum I’m being surfed backwards on top off the pile. The low brace stabilizes me until I can go back into my forward stroke.
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whatever one's thoughts about knee paddling vs prone, it's notable that knee paddling is much quicker than prone paddling----since concept is to get outside quickly