Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: supsean on October 08, 2018, 08:23:57 AM
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I am a relatively new sup surfer (1 year) but have really enjoyed and learned a lot from the standup zone. And my latest discovery is the reverse duck dive / tail handle combo.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25430.0.html
Turning the board around has made life oh so much easier in the whitewater. I have a tail pad that has a nice ridge that allows me some grip, although I think that I really need a handle. I cannot fit an second modified stomp pad on my board. And I was wondering if anybody is still using / modifying these tail pads, or more specifically:
1. Using the paddle to press down on the back of the sup still a method that people are using?
2. surfafrica / style still working? https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25430.0;attach=63936;image
3. Beasho style still working? https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25430.0;attach=60322;image
4. Any input on the Surfco EZ Plug Handle Kit? I was going to use this first, as I only surf in 1-4 foot range waves here on the rockaways, and I saw that several zoners were using these.
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Not sure what you mean by reverse duck dive.
I've been using NSI handles as tail handles on all my boards for over five years now and still think they're the best.
https://northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=251
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25430.msg363513.html#msg363513
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Thanks Badger. The NSI handle/90degrees install was also something I was considering as well. Unfortunately I don't think that handle will fit on the back of my board. It was surfafrica that mentioned the "reverse duck dive", and made the process easier to remember. I'm sure it is what you do with your handle. When faced with the white water, one reverses the board so that it faces the beach and pushes down the tail and holds on to a handle/stomp pad. I love how it keeps you above the white water, and is a lot less difficult than throwing the board up and over a wave and then suffering through the whitewater hit on the other side.
I hop off, quickly turn my back to the wave with my board facing the beach, and will reverse duck dive using my tail pad kick as a tail handle (when my boards were bigger, I installed a tail handle). With the smaller/lighter boards, spinning them back around after the reverse duck dive is much more doable.
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Okay we can call it that, although I never actually submerge when doing it. :)
If you scroll down from my post, it shows how I cut the pads to fit the tail of my Stun Gun which had little room. They still had plenty of adhesion and never came off.
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aah I remember seeing that now, but then PonoBill said that "that was a really bad idea", but I think it was actually about the next post which was about grabbing the leash...
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aah I remember seeing that now, but then PonoBill said that "that was a really bad idea", but I think it was actually about the next post which was about grabbing the leash...
I had a religious conversion after my "strap handle" nearly degloved three of the fingers on my right hand. They still look goofy to this day. Sam Pa'e's tail handle was the answer and the reverse duck dive (though I've never called it that before) has saved my ass and my leash a few thousand times since then. It makes me positively giddy to have a double overhead wave fall on my head with minimal negative effect. The only caveat is to make sure you can't get your hand stuck. Sometimes the board will rip away from you in the washing machine, but most of the energy will already be past, and it will hardly hit the end of the leash.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43385983_10156031208863668_1974414650862731264_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&oh=35544d062aec1387c870d455a9bf4704&oe=5C193392)
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aah I remember seeing that now, but then PonoBill said that "that was a really bad idea", but I think it was actually about the next post which was about grabbing the leash...
Yeah, Bill was talking about the other post, not mine. The NSI handle is only dangerous if you grab it with your whole hand. All that's required to hold on is the four finger tips. The only time I lose my grip is during extreme situations where you don't want to be holding on to it anyway. It's a very comfortable handle.
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Ouch that screen grab is the best example yet of why not to grab the handle too hard. Thanks, I needed that! The one problem with being the only SUP boarder at the Rockaways, NY, is that I get my lessons from short boarders, and they tend to be rather curt and a bit succinct in their statements. (ie., "control your board kook")
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Shortboarders respect board control. 8)
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Funny...I had a couple of close calls Sunday at Nantasket...very crowded. After one (he ate it on a closeout just outside of me and I was able to swing my board wide just missing him) the shortboarder said of my tail handle...I wish everyone on a SUP had one of those.
Reverse duck dive is actually not a bad name for it...you don't dive but you do duck...or at least I do. Tail handles are game changers and I have the best one there is....:)
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Yeah, a tail handle thread!
Love mine and feel lost on a board without one.
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Ouch that screen grab is the best example yet of why not to grab the handle too hard. Thanks, I needed that! The one problem with being the only SUP boarder at the Rockaways, NY, is that I get my lessons from short boarders, and they tend to be rather curt and a bit succinct in their statements. (ie., "control your board kook")
That wasn't a handle that did that to my fingers, it was a short strap I had on my board on a second leash plug. I thought it was a good alternative to handles and posted my thoughts on a thread Sam Pa'e had started about handles. Sam and I exchanged some heated words until I discovered what he was so pissed about--not safe, almost lost three fingers. I had to beg forgiveness for my ignorance and I've had Sam Pa'e-style handles on my boards ever since. Good thing, Sam is a great source of knowledge about anything to do with water or boards. His videos saved me a bunch of frustration in learning to foil.
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someone want to elaborate on the actual technique here, not the installation of the handle?
How big might this work in ? do you sink the tail ?do you flip the board first ?
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someone want to elaborate on the actual technique here, not the installation of the handle?
How big might this work in ? do you sink the tail ?do you flip the board first ?
Yes, I’ve read the descriptions several times but I’m still unclear about what exactly you are doing. What *exactly* are the relative positions of the wave, the board, your body, the shore, and your paddle? What position is your body in, and what do you do with it as the white water hits you? I guess a video would make it all much clearer.
Thanks for your advice.
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Simple.
You point the board toward shore, grab the handle and just before the wave hits, you push down on the tail. The nose will point up and the wave will pass by. Hold the handle with one hand and the paddle with the other hand, one hand atop the other. After the waves passes, you have the board right in your hand, always in control, not floating around loose, allowing you to quickly hop on and paddle away.
One thing to remember is to always keep your arms bent and never hold on to the handle so much that you can't let go if you need to. I've used this technique in surf close to double overhead for many years without any problems. It's only meant to be used with whitewater waves. You don't want to be anywhere near the board in a wave that is in the process of breaking.
In small waves, if your board has a kick pad, you don't really even need a handle. Just rest your paddle across the kick pad when you push down. That should be enough for you to hold on to the board in most cases. Bigger waves will definitely need a handle.
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You don’t necessarily need a handle in bigger waves (big is relative). If you’ve never used a tail handle or are wondering how effective it is, try it with whatever board you have, in any size surf. You can even just toss your arm over the tail (loosely) and it will have the same effect. I’ve used handles in the past but all of the stories of getting fingers caught scares me so I just use the kick pad and toss my arm over it to sink the tail. This past Saturday I surfed for a couple hours in head high to slightly overhead waves and had no issues with this method. I surf pretty small boards so that makes it easier. Even with a larger board, if you’re able to deflect some of the initial impact it makes a big difference. The bottom line is that if it’s done properly, handle or not, it makes large whitewater comical and relaxing.
Now if only NSi would listen to Stoney and put those tail pads into production.
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I've used it in the biggest wave I surf, which is 7 to 10 Hawaiian, a little more than double overhead. The board gets ripped away, but I don't go for leashrides and it's close by when the tumbling stops.
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I know that if I hadn't had that tail handle I might not be here. The pounding I took from Maria at 2nd beach last fall might have been my last if I hadn't come up next to my board and had a tail handle to grab on to. It would have been ripped from my hands...maybe with some fingers if I'd tried to grab a leash.
That was just grab on and pray but there is some timing and technique that helps as waves get bigger. If I have time and can get ready for it I curl into a semi-fetal position as I push down the tail....the duck part I referred to above. As I push the tail down I stick my ass into the wave and tuck my feet up under me some. The wave passes over my back instead of hitting it square and my feet are up and away from fins. Then as soon as the wave has passed over me and hits the board I straighten up quickly perpendicular to the surface...acting like a sea anchor.
I hardly move in up to head high, and bigger you just give some. Like Bill said if it's too big/thick and it takes the board (you need to know when to let go) you've still dampened the effect. But normally you have complete control of the board, a quick twist and the board is 180 deg and ready to mount. Timing is important too, sticking your ass into the wave just as it hits has you thrusting your chest and thighs in opposition to the wave. Pulling your feet up under you helps in driving the tail down, and gets them in position to kick into perpendicular. The better you do it the bigger the wave where it works. And too early or too late are not as effective.
Very important as Badger mentioned...keep your arms bent...if they get pulled straight its time to let go and also if it starts to twist. Sprained my wrist on an early version when I gripped too tight and didn't let go
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A very good safety point is that when holding on to the board, you are not depending on the leash, which could break.
It prolongs the life of the leash because you are not using it. Save the leash for when you need it, use the handle when you don't.
By holding on to your board, you are protecting others from getting hit by it as well as preventing the board from getting in someones way when they are trying to surf the wave.
There is no reason why you should have to retrieve your board every time a wave hits you.
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So if i understand correctly you're just sinking the tail, and letting the white water hit your head and shoulders as you are facing the shore? Or do you try to sink your body and head then pull the tail down?
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You could call it a butt drop? I grab the handle with the board facing the beach, take a breath and sink my butt.
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All I do is sink the tail with my back to the whitewater. Everything else takes care of itself. I think it's actually better to float as high as possible.
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I am experimenting with it in 2-3 foot whitewater first. Just pressing the tail down and holding on to the ridge on the back of my stomp pad. It is amazing how much less energy I expend. Before I would throw the board over, or try and hold onto it and I would invariably get pushed back by the white wash. Now I just magically float on the top of the wave as it goes under me. Be careful, though, if it is a wave that is breaking on your head. Especially a shore break.
I am a advanced beginner, so I have no desire to go out when it is over 3-4 feet, but I felt like I needed more control when there are surfers behind me.
I just wanted to start a new topic to see if people had any new advice in the 3 years since it was last updated. Below is the link to the rather long original post. I read it twice.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=25430.90
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There was a lot of experimentation going on back then. I don't think I've seen anyone else using a tail handle for as long as I've been doing this. I try to explain it to people but no one seems to get it. To me a tail handle is a very important piece of equipment. I've had prone surfers thank me for using it.
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so is the consensus tail handle or no and just use stomp pad?
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Not sure about consensus but a tail handle is far better than just a stomp.
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Go ahead and try the stomp pad and see how you like it. A custom stomp pad like Stoneaxe's design would be nice but most stock stomp pads don't have enough ledge to provide enough hold.
The NSI handle is more comfortable, easier to hold on to and provides a more secure grip on the board.
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There was a lot of experimentation going on back then. I don't think I've seen anyone else using a tail handle for as long as I've been doing this. I try to explain it to people but no one seems to get it.
heh, I'm one of the ones that still doesn't get it. ;D
I've tried grabbing the stromp pad and pushing down on it, but I can't sink the tail and get the nose to pop up unless I actually lift half my body out of the water and put all that weight down on it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the timing though... is the idea to sink the tail/lift the nose before the whitewater hits, or do you just stay submerged to your shoulders in the water gripping the tail, such that when the white water does hit the board, you keep the tail from rising and let the whitewater lift the nose?
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Hi Luke. You push down on the tail just before the whitewater hits you. You want the nose of the board to point upward as a result. It's okay if pushing down lifts you up a bit. I have no trouble doing this even with the 237 liter M-12'6.
The upward pointing nose will allow the wave to pass by. If the board is laying down flat, it will get pulled right out of your hands.
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It doesn't take much on smaller waves, I can sink the tail enough with one hand most of the time , enough to help anyway. The timing comes into play more with bigger waves that are breaking. I'll use it in any wave that isn't going to suck me up and over the falls.
If I have time I throw my right forearm over the tail and grab the handle with my left hand. Paddle is in the right hand with the shaft along the rail and blade pointed toward the nose. When I push the board down with my forearm, I want the tail deep and under me, that does lift my back up out of the water. The wave washes over my back and down onto the board which drives the board deeper...and because of the angle of the board...back and down. It pretty much stops dead in the water in up to a head high wave. I'm entering the backside when my body goes straight and the board is already popping back up. It pulls my arm out a bit and then I'm in perfect position to pull back with my left hand and spin the board on it's tail back into paddling position...jump on and go. I have it down pretty good.....we had 14s period last Sunday. That was enough to get hit, turned around, get back up and moving before the next hit. Fighting over the whitewater is 1/2 the fun of SUP...I made it over some BIG foamballs Sunday after recovering with the handle.
It is bizarre that handles haven't found wider use/acceptance. I can't imagine surfing without one now. I think this is the 1st tail handle thread on the zone...10 years old. There have been 5 or 6 since at least with lots of testimony by folks how well they work. I still see only 1 in 10 boards with one.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2741.0
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People are just weird about tradition, even when the tradition is a few years old. I couldn't get Billo Foote to even TRY a tail handle. Most experienced surfers want nothing to do with them. It's a badge of honor thing. No one wants to try waist leashes. People constantly say to me "what is that, a tail". Where's the magic in an ankle leash? Why would anyone assume it's better just because it's what you can easily buy?
I see people on big boards with massive volume wearing a skinny, old longboard leash with a worn out ankle cuff. I just wonder what the fuck they're thinking.
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Has anybody thought about reaching out to the actual board manufacturers to have an enhanced tail kick? It seems quite easy to create a little finger ridge since they manufacture the deck pads anyway? (hint hint supthecreek / Sunova)
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so is the consensus tail handle or no and just use stomp pad?
My takeaway/consensus is:
1. Tail handles are great as long as you grip it so that your fingers can release and don't get stuck.
2. A modified stomp pad is great as long as you can get traction with your fingers.
3. Stomp pads, especially with a little finger lip, can be helpful, but not as good as the first two.
To avoid hurting yourself, read the earlier, rather long, topic: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=25430.90
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Has anybody thought about reaching out to the actual board manufacturers to have an enhanced tail kick? It seems quite easy to create a little finger ridge since they manufacture the deck pads anyway? (hint hint supthecreek / Sunova)
Stoneaxe designed this one and presented it to NSI but so far they don't seem interested. I like it.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25430.msg282223.html#msg282223
Pretty sure Rick (Supthecreek) hasn't converted over to the tail handle faith yet. I highly doubt Sunova would go for the idea. It has to start somewhere though. If just one major manufacturer would incorporate a tail handle onto their boards, it might take off. Just like Naish and their the ledge style carrying handle. That was a total game changer. Now every manufacturer has a variation of it.
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Stoneaxe designed this one and presented it to NSI but so far they don't seem interested. I like it.
I saw that, and I wish it would have been developed.
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25430.msg282223.html#msg282223
Pretty sure Rick (Supthecreek) hasn't converted over to the tail handle faith yet. I highly doubt Sunova would go for the idea. It has to start somewhere though. If just one major manufacturer would incorporate a tail handle onto their boards, it might take off. Just like Naish and their the ledge style carrying handle. That was a total game changer. Now every manufacturer has a variation of it.
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I know. It is such a small tweak to an already existing tail pad that they are manufacturing. I guess that is why I hinted to Rick, as he has already a board named after him, (I just saw on the Australian Surf FX surf shop video that it is the most popular Sunova board...)
It is true, however, that Rick (Supthecreek) is conspicuously absent from this topic. But he uses the Great Whites clear the water of pesky surfers around him... :
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Following silently...
I have no urge to "convert"
I use many techniques to navigate busy line-ups and OH waves... and I am happy with them.
Since this is a tail handle thread, I am happy to observe and listen. Convince me ;)
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Are you all using the tail handle
in shallow water (standable)?
or
in deep water?
or
both?
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Both....but standable I smash waves with my back....:)
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It doesn't matter how deep or shallow the water is. It works either way just the same. I only use the technique with waves that I can't easily just push the board over.
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What Badger said....If I'm being lazy I'll walk out chest deep pushing my board in front of me....push the tail down and do a superman over the foamballs until I see a lull.
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Since this is a tail handle thread, I am happy to observe and listen. Convince me ;)
Yeah, right, you and Billy Foote. And when I convince you to use a tail handle you'll probably start surfing in a tutu as well.
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Another denier. For one I don't often surf double overhead or larger and if I did my
board would be a leash distance away when critical.
For another, I like to go up and over standing. Very satisfying to make it.
And if its to big to climb over I usually wait for the lull.
I would image most surfers who started before leashes were used,
probably are not seeing the need.
If it makes you feel safer, go for it. Its your choice.
Leashes are different because they do make me and others feel safer.
One yank and my board is back where it belongs and it did not take out
the kids in the lineup.
Halloween is coming. Tutu anyone.
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Well of course you go up and over standing. A tail handle is just a way to control a high-volume board when you're in the water and something lumpy is going to run you down. No one would put one on a shortboard or a potato chip longboard. Maybe a thick longboard would benefit from it--lifeguards seem to think so. The surprising ability to get mauled by a big breaking wave and have it come to nothing is mostly a secondary benefit.
Bill Foote says the same thing--"if I'm going to get worked I want to be as far from my board as I can be." That sounds rational until you remember that you're tied to something that has a lot of ways to clobber or stab you and when it's at the end of a leash you have NO control over what it does. 99 percent of the time it's downstream of you, and that's the way the wave is going to toss you. My worst surfing injury so far was from my board hitting me when I didn't bother to grab the handle.
But most important is the simple fact that I don't know of anyone who has tried one for any length of time who has decided not to use them.
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I have tail handles on my boards and generally think they're okay......However, one thing that I've noticed on more than several occasions is that at times the board will:
a) will jack up (the back end were I'm holding it) which draws my body even closer to the board and the fins rise vertically out of the water coming precariously close to my head as I'll looking in on the beach, or
b) it yanks the snot out of my arm/shoulder as the wave passes...
I suspect both are operator error!!! Am I'm simply not pushing deep enough on the tail? If that's the case then my body would be drawn in even closer (i.e., torso over the tail) to the board, no?
Appreciate some clarity cuz I'm not doing something quite right at times......
Thanks
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It's just an option that's there when you need it. If you've never used one then you don't know how useful it is. If you're surfing outer reefs, it's nice to have another option to preventing a potentially very long swim. If you surf sandy bottom shore breaks, then you may not understand the consequences of losing your board a 1000 yards offshore. There is a technique which varies depending on the size of the board. First of all, when you sink the tail, your legs tend to float up towards the fins. It's one of the things I think about when I'm pushing the tail down. I usually spread my legs apart right as I push down. As long as I have my hand or hands depending on the size of the wave, on the board, I can control the tail and fin situation. If the waves are small, I'll grab it with one hand while I'm doing a side stroke and just kind of let the tail float up over the wave. I'm just dragging it with maybe a little push down.
As the waves get bigger, I start making sure my back is square to the wave and my board is at a 90 degree angle to the just breaking wave, or white water. Just before it hits, I'll pull down and do the butt sink with one or both hands on it the tail. If the pressure increases to where it's stressing my fingers, I let go. In OH or bigger , I'll grab the handle and tail firmly with both hands and sink my butt really hard. You'd be amazed how well it works. These are not paddle up and over the white water size waves, and it works. Again, if you feel your fingers getting twisted, or stressed to an unsafe place, let go and let your leash do it's thing. The thing is, usually by the time you let go, your board has already been dragged past the impact part of the wave, so you get less tug and drag.
If I'm paddling out in bigger waves than I can stand up and paddle out, I'll prone and roll through -up and over the on coming white water. I can keep my momentum going for the most part, and stay the course. The tail handle is like Pono says, good for when you're in the impact zone (oh crap! zone) with no momentum. You turn around and have just enough time to point your board towards the beach, grad the tail handle and sink. Then you come up in the same place with the board still pointing to the beach, ready to do it all over again til the set passes.
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I have tail handles on my boards and generally think they're okay......However, one thing that I've noticed on more than several occasions is that at times the board will:
a) will jack up (the back end were I'm holding it) which draws my body even closer to the board and the fins rise vertically out of the water coming precariously close to my head as I'll looking in on the beach, or
b) it yanks the snot out of my arm/shoulder as the wave passes...
I suspect both are operator error!!! Am I'm simply not pushing deep enough on the tail? If that's the case then my body would be drawn in even closer (i.e., torso over the tail) to the board, no?
Appreciate some clarity cuz I'm not doing something quite right at times......
Thanks
You are definitely doing something wrong.
The tail should not jack up at all and there should be no concern of the board hitting your face. There should be no pull on your arms or shoulders although it does happen on rare occasions. If you feel the board pulling just let go.
Don't push down on the tail so far that it gets completely vertical. A slight angle is okay. Keep your arms bent at all times.
It sounds like you might be pushing down way too early. You want to push down on the tail the last second before the wave hits you and continue to hold it down as the waves passes by. The wave should be hitting you just as the board is going up.
Just float normally in the water when you push down. Use both hands to push down, one atop the other.
In overhead waves, I sometimes feel the impact when the whitewater hits my back but it's nothing major and no big deal.
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How many people here have tried a well-thought out handle and afterwards decided to go without?
Pono is right when he says "But most important is the simple fact that I don't know of anyone who has tried one for any length of time who has decided not to use them." The utility they provide can't be replaced. I can't think of a reason not to have one.
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I have tail handles on my boards and generally think they're okay......However, one thing that I've noticed on more than several occasions is that at times the board will:
a) will jack up (the back end were I'm holding it) which draws my body even closer to the board and the fins rise vertically out of the water coming precariously close to my head as I'll looking in on the beach, or
b) it yanks the snot out of my arm/shoulder as the wave passes...
I suspect both are operator error!!! Am I'm simply not pushing deep enough on the tail? If that's the case then my body would be drawn in even closer (i.e., torso over the tail) to the board, no?
Appreciate some clarity cuz I'm not doing something quite right at times......
Thanks
You are definitely doing something wrong.
The tail should not jack up at all and there should be no concern of the board hitting your face. There should be no pull on your arms or shoulders although it does happen on rare occasions. If you feel the board pulling just let go.
Don't push down on the tail so far that it gets completely vertical. A slight angle is okay. Keep your arms bent at all times.
It sounds like you might be pushing down way too early. You want to push down on the tail the last second before the wave hits you and continue to hold it down as the waves passes by. The wave should be hitting you just as the board is going up.
Just float normally in the water when you push down. Use both hands to push down, one atop the other.
In overhead waves, I sometimes feel the impact when the whitewater hits my back but it's nothing major and no big deal.
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What are you doing with your paddle if one hand is on top of the other with both on the board?
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I have to say I have never really given this much thought, but now will try it. It's better than my pushing the board over with an instinctual twist of the body back towards shore so as to not get a face full of foam.
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More I'm thinking about this the more I'm thinking that I'm pushing the tail down too deep.....this would explain the tail moving in a vertical plane where the fins break the surface rising up in front of my face. Intuitively this makes sense; the white water hits the front of the board with force and in turn the board acts as a lever and the tail moves up (vertically). Will try to dip the tail slightly below horizontal and not go so deep to see if this makes a difference - if it doesn't then I don't have a clue what ya'll are talking about! ::) :o
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A-10, I hold the tail handle in my right hand with the paddle in my left hand on top of my right hand.
I usually hold the paddle straight across, parallel to the wave or maybe at a slight angle. It doesn't seem to make much difference. The paddle has no drag in the turbulence.
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More I'm thinking about this the more I'm thinking that I'm pushing the tail down too deep.....this would explain the tail moving in a vertical plane where the fins break the surface rising up in front of my face. Intuitively this makes sense; the white water hits the front of the board with force and in turn the board acts as a lever and the tail moves up (vertically). Will try to dip the tail slightly below horizontal and not go so deep to see if this makes a difference - if it doesn't then I don't have a clue what ya'll are talking about! ::) :o
The fins should be pointing away from you and toward shore, not toward your face. The tail and fins stay below the water and never break free of the surface. I can't even think of how you would go about making the fins come out of the water during this procedure.
The whitewater never touches the front half of the board. The nose is supposed to be pointing up, out of the water.
It's very simple. Don't overthink it.
Step 1. Board pointing toward shore with your back to the wave.
Step 2. Push down on tail one second before wave hits you.
It can be done with any size board. Even 14 footers.
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Thanks Badger......I think I need a kook cam setup to try and capture what I'm trying to explain cuz my board is pointing to the beach and my back is to the incoming wave. When I say the "fins break the surface rising up in front of my face" I mean to say my body and board are facing the beach and the back/tail of the board rises up vertically exposing the backside of the fins (to the front of my body which is always oriented toward the beach).
Way tooooo much spaining....I just need to experiment.
By far my go to is to try to paddle with some speed into an oncoming and if I know I won't be able to make then I shoot the board with my feet off at about a 20-45 degree angle to my right (I'm a goofy) in an attempt to get the board up and over the wave and bail out left. Works like a charm!
Still lots to learn......which is very cool!
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Thanks Badger......I think I need a kook cam setup to try and capture what I'm trying to explain cuz my board is pointing to the beach and my back is to the incoming wave. When I say the "fins break the surface rising up in front of my face" I mean to say my body and board are facing the beach and the back/tail of the board rises up vertically exposing the backside of the fins (to the front of my body which is always oriented toward the beach).
Way tooooo much spaining....I just need to experiment.
By far my go to is to try to paddle with some speed into an oncoming and if I know I won't be able to make then I shoot the board with my feet off at about a 20-45 degree angle to my right (I'm a goofy) in an attempt to get the board up and over the wave and bail out left. Works like a charm!
Still lots to learn......which is very cool!
What does "backside of fins" mean? I've never heard of fins having a backside. Are you talking about the trailing edge?
I've never had the tail of a board rise up vertically exposing the fins when using a tail handle. I'd love to see a video of what you're doing.
I mostly use the handle when I get caught inside. I might get hit by three or four waves before I'm able to get up and paddle away and it allows me to hang onto the board and get back on quickly.
Also, at the point break where I surf, there is often another surfer on the very next wave. If I fall, I use the handle to help keep the board out of his or her way.
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What's -- from your description it sounds like you are getting up over the tail of the board and probably pushing too hard. Try not pushing at all--just hold the board. The tail will pop up a little, but that's about all. Then next wave just push down a little to counter that pop. You don't have to sink it. Most of the time I'm just making a grab for the board because I've just been worked and big brother is right behind. In that case, I don't even have the board pointed right. The wave will take care of all that plenty soon you betcha. Grab for the board, hang on as best you can, if it's too much let go. The board will be right there anyway.
The most fulfilling case is when you take off on the first wave of a set, screw up, and auger in. You might have to sit there while five or six set waves pummel you. But it's no big deal, after the first desperate grab you have time to point the board well and give the tail a little push. Your buddies are all getting worked and shoved into the lagoon. You're right where you were, and as soon as it's feasible you can spin your board around and get back to the lineup. That's when it's just magic.
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I was going to say much of what Bill just said...1/2 the time it's just grab with one hand and hold on briefly It's only when it gets bigger that I start to worry about how I do it and only then when I have time.
Whatsup...next time I'm down that way lets get in the water together. I understand your explanation, I don't think you're doing anything wrong. The back of the fins should be pointing towards you after the wave passes. When you say it rises vertically...it's supposed to...after you push the tail down and the wave pushes it further it pops back up towards the beach. In odd situations if you hold on to the board too long it can kick....that is one thing you need to watch for because if your grip is too tight it can twist your wrist and I've seen the fins exposed in that situation.
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Thanks for the hints guys! VERY helpful. I put into practice the comments received this morning and lo and behold its apparent (now) that I've been pushing way to deep! I found that a slight dip it all that's needed. Still had the board rip away a couple of times but nothing serious.
This morning we had some very nice Michael remnants in the thigh to chest range so it was good conditions to play in......Stoney: Mentioned to a few other Zoner's that were down I was wondering if you might make it - pretty fun day. Only regret is I should have brought the Creek instead of my B&B, which I picked up form repair yesterday...oh well. 8)
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Yes a slight dip is all that's required. It doesn't take much pressure. Just enough to get the nose up.
I never thought to ask, what type of tail handle are you using? I wonder if that might be somehow affecting things.
We had some fun Micheal waves today also.
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Standard NSI on my B&B....absolutely no need for it on the Creek as it has MORE than a sufficient hand grab on the stomp pad!
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No...I couldn't even get out of bed this morning. Combination of my head being screwed up and some stomach bug that came on fast last night. I did nada today in fact....posting here is bout as ambitious as it got.
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How many people here have tried a well-thought out handle and afterwards decided to go without?
Pono is right when he says "But most important is the simple fact that I don't know of anyone who has tried one for any length of time who has decided not to use them." The utility they provide can't be replaced. I can't think of a reason not to have one.
I used to have a few on some of my boards when I lived in CA but have since stopped using them. Whether it was laziness or the fact that I go through many boards, who knows. Could also be that using a handle made me more comfortable when getting pounded and now I can handle the same situations without a handle. I use a very similar method though, I just put my hand on top of the stomp pad ridge and 90% of the time I stay in contact with the board. Works for me and I don't have to worry about fingers, etc.
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Thanks for this tip. Just putting my hand or the paddle on the stomp pad has saved me some long underwater pulls this week! :)
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my experience same as kaya's
add that my skills paddling over have gotten to the point where, if i cant get over, i will be going deep and ditching--and my ability to insure that, when i ditch, my board wont get near other humans, has gotten quite reliable
and my rigged up handles made the sexy asses of my boards look all sloppy!
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I have a question. If I have a 10' leash, and I tombstone (ie., go straight down feet first) and I am 6' tall, that should put my leash 7+ feet down. That makes the range of my board danger quite a bit less. (like 10' versus 20' as I have a sub-9' board). What are the ramifactionas of this? It should cause less stress on my leash, as it won't be whipping out to the end. Can I get hurt by this action? Obviously, I still need to be hyper aware of the surfers around me...and make sure my leash is not bunched up.
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I have a question. If I have a 10' leash, and I tombstone (ie., go straight down feet first) and I am 6' tall, that should put my leash 7+ feet down. That makes the range of my board danger quite a bit less. (like 10' versus 20' as I have a sub-9' board). What are the ramifactionas of this? It should cause less stress on my leash, as it won't be whipping out to the end. Can I get hurt by this action? Obviously, I still need to be hyper aware of the surfers around me...and make sure my leash is not bunched up.
Watch your nuts
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petty language comment: "tombstone" as used by surfers refers to the look of a surfer's board standing straight up in the whitewater, tensioned by the leash to do so, so it looks like a tombstone--involves a bit of fatalist humor, given the potential that the surfer be dead held down under---it's really only used in connection with huge waves, with deep water
kick your board away from you, if youre going to fall, and consider a waistleash
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Eastbound beat me to it and defined tombstoning perfectly.
10 feet is pretty long for a leash unless you're in double overhead conditions. I have a 10' leash on my 12'6 but my other boards both have 8' leashes. With an 8' leash, I can easily get the board back to me with just a kick of my leg.
I'm not sure I understand what you are describing. How are you going to prevent the board from "whipping out to the end"?
Overly long leashes can be trouble even in small surf. There is just more loose leash available to get tangled up in. If you get your arm, leg or head inside a loop when it gets pulled tight, you could be in for some serious injury. I got my thumb caught in a loop a few years ago and it hasn't worked right since.
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Eastbound beat me to it and defined tombstoning perfectly.
10 feet is pretty long for a leash unless you're in double overhead conditions. I have a 10' leash on my 12'6 but my other boards both have 8' leashes. With an 8' leash, I can easily get the board back to me with just a kick of my leg.
I'm not sure I understand what you are describing. How are you going to prevent the board from "whipping out to the end"?
Overly long leashes can be trouble even in small surf. There is just more loose leash available to get tangled up in. If you get your arm, leg or head inside a loop when it gets pulled tight, you could be in for some serious injury. I got my thumb caught in a loop a few years ago and it hasn't worked right since.
Hi Badger
I alway thought a leash should be about the length of your board? It sounds like it should be shorter?
Bob
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We had some big outside sneaker sets this morning. The frames kept shifting all over. Hard to be in the right spot. It would start working inside and just when I thought I had found the spot, an outside bomb set would come in. Tail handle through about 5 waves right on the head. Then prone paddle outside to catch my breath. Realize I'm too far out, and it starts all over again.
I thought there was enough size to ride my shorter 9' board, but with no glide I had to sit inside. Just about everyone outside of me was on these high volume 10' + gliders. Needless to say, they always had position. So I grabbed my 10' icon and proceeded to catch a ton of waves. I still have water in my ears and sand on my feet ;D
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Eastbound beat me to it and defined tombstoning perfectly.
10 feet is pretty long for a leash unless you're in double overhead conditions. I have a 10' leash on my 12'6 but my other boards both have 8' leashes. With an 8' leash, I can easily get the board back to me with just a kick of my leg.
I'm not sure I understand what you are describing. How are you going to prevent the board from "whipping out to the end"?
Overly long leashes can be trouble even in small surf. There is just more loose leash available to get tangled up in. If you get your arm, leg or head inside a loop when it gets pulled tight, you could be in for some serious injury. I got my thumb caught in a loop a few years ago and it hasn't worked right since.
Hi Badger
I alway thought a leash should be about the length of your board? It sounds like it should be shorter?
Bob
It should only be the length of your board if you are planning to hang ten.
8 feet seems about perfect to me. Except on really long boards like my 12'6 which need a little more length to keep them from landing on you when they occasionally pop up.
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Eastbound beat me to it and defined tombstoning perfectly.
10 feet is pretty long for a leash unless you're in double overhead conditions. I have a 10' leash on my 12'6 but my other boards both have 8' leashes. With an 8' leash, I can easily get the board back to me with just a kick of my leg.
I'm not sure I understand what you are describing. How are you going to prevent the board from "whipping out to the end"?
Overly long leashes can be trouble even in small surf. There is just more loose leash available to get tangled up in. If you get your arm, leg or head inside a loop when it gets pulled tight, you could be in for some serious injury. I got my thumb caught in a loop a few years ago and it hasn't worked right since.
Oh, I was recommended to have the 10' leash with the sub 9' board. I always feel that it is too long, but I am still on my first surfable board, so I am learning as I go.
Somebody else (I think supboardermag.com) called it a "tombstone", and the way you describe it makes perfect sense. I visualized it exactly that way. As the wave approaches and breaks in front of me, I jump off next to the board and go straight down feet first, and let the wave go over my head. This puts my head safely below the surface, and my feet and the leash 7 feet down. The board "tombstones". This keeps it from "whipping" at the 20 foot radius of injury at the end of my outstretched leg. Instead it stays pretty much above me.
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Eastbound beat me to it and defined tombstoning perfectly.
10 feet is pretty long for a leash unless you're in double overhead conditions. I have a 10' leash on my 12'6 but my other boards both have 8' leashes. With an 8' leash, I can easily get the board back to me with just a kick of my leg.
I'm not sure I understand what you are describing. How are you going to prevent the board from "whipping out to the end"?
Overly long leashes can be trouble even in small surf. There is just more loose leash available to get tangled up in. If you get your arm, leg or head inside a loop when it gets pulled tight, you could be in for some serious injury. I got my thumb caught in a loop a few years ago and it hasn't worked right since.
As the wave approaches and breaks in front of me, I jump off next to the board and go straight down feet first, and let the wave go over my head. This puts my head safely below the surface, and my feet and the leash 7 feet down. The board "tombstones". This keeps it from "whipping" at the 20 foot radius of injury at the end of my outstretched leg. Instead it stays pretty much above me.
I'm not a fan of feet or head first. I think you may be giving up on making it over the seemingly breaking wave. I'll paddle right through the face of a breaking wave. If I don't make it, I'll still dive over the wave and land in a more laid out flat position. If a big (as in overhead) wave has just broke in front of me, then I'll dive (but a flat dive) into the white water as I kick my board to the side. If it's broke a maybe 30 feet in front of me and I feel I can't even attempt to paddle over the white water, then I'll dive forward under the white water and kick my board to the side.
It's reef where I surf, so pounding my feet on the reef is never good. Diving down head first is super risky. I always assume I'm falling or jumping into shallow water with a reef bottom, so my cat instinct kicks in. Sprawl like a starfish.
BTW, I use a 9' leash with my 10' board. I don't nose ride it, and my left foot is usually the forward foot. So my leash is back further on my right ancle.
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what TD said--paddling "over" includes a "jumpover" if i cant make it on my feet--"jumpover" places you a bit further along in a tough paddleout than where you end up if you go deep
the jump or dive deep is if there's a big hit coming that cant be paddled over or jumped over
tip: if you dive, hold paddle handle ahead of your head--this way the paddle will hit the unseen coral head or rock so youve time to pull away and try to protect head/body
sometimes i am shocked at how shallow it is--much better to feel the bottom with paddle handle than with head
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I carry a 8' and a 10' leash for my 10'4 Foote.
I always try and go over if its a foamball. If it's bigger and just breaking I try and punch through and take the lip on my thighs (unfortunately sometimes nuts.... :o). If I know i'm not going to make it and have time I'll drop into the water, spin the board and grab the handle, no time I kick the board over and fall flat.
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I've found, the trick to getting over the whitewater is to step back into your surf stance just before the wave hits you. I was amazed how much that helped once I started doing it. I don't ride beach breaks very often so I don't get much practice.
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Always...pop the nose....that's how you get up and over....coupled with a hard stroke into it and a bracing stroke on the backside. I sit in the zone and practice if I'm feeling rusty.....good timing of all the pieces and even bigger foamballs can be easy.
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" As the wave approaches and breaks in front of me, I jump off next to the board and go straight down feet first, and let the wave go over my head. " :o
Don't try that in Hawaii or by any rocky reef or shoreline. You can also hit bottom pretty hard on a sandy beach and injure your feet .... especially in stingray season.
The best places to surf usually have nasty things under the water that make the waves break. Fall flat or flat dive to the side or over . You can sweep your paddle as you go over to stay above the foam.
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This was great! Thanks for all the advice.
In conclusion. When faced with a wave, I will a: get thru the wave, b: get over those damn foamballs, or c: reverse duck-dive. In that order of preference.
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Somebody else (I think supboardermag.com) called it a "tombstone", and the way you describe it makes perfect sense. I visualized it exactly that way. As the wave approaches and breaks in front of me, I jump off next to the board and go straight down feet first, and let the wave go over my head. This puts my head safely below the surface, and my feet and the leash 7 feet down. The board "tombstones". This keeps it from "whipping" at the 20 foot radius of injury at the end of my outstretched leg. Instead it stays pretty much above me.
OUCH. No! I can't think of anywhere except maybe a deep water big wave where that would be a good idea--and even there most people don't do that--if only because it's a terrible habit. In Maui you'd have an excellent chance of crawling up the beach bleeding profusely with Wana spines sticking out anywhere that wasn't slashed having damaged the coral by slamming your feet into what Covesurfer called "pincushions and razor blades". Lots of other places you be bashing into rocks, cobble, or stingrays. Never dive or jump deep into water your don't know everything about.
Oops. Other people already said that. Oh well, never mind. +1.
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It also just looks dorky. :o
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As a conclusion to my posting, I put a handle on my sup, use it occasionally. But have found that the FCS tail stomper that I installed (thanks to another zoner video by supthecreek) has a very nice lip and I have been using that instead. I also have seen that the new fanatic and starboard's have nice exaggerated kickers that look like they'd be good for holding without risking one's fingers.
Either way, thanks for helping me to figure out how to control my board in whitewater. As with everything, practice makes perfect (or at least serviceable). I get over a lot of foam balls now by paddling, leaning back, and getting a paddle in on the top. Although if there is a lot of backwash or wind, it gets difficult.