Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: stoneaxe on September 28, 2018, 05:47:00 PM
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Anyone seen or used one of these? Thinking it could be fun with the kids. I can't dive (can't equalize) but at least I can get to 10' with this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ1-BUqEmWo
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It’s a Kickstarter. Ships in Feb (or not)
Looks great to me. Really great for boat owners.
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Hhmm...didn't realize it was kickstarter.
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There are many different brands out there both gas powered and electric.
Just Google "Surface Supplied Air diving" or "Hookah diving".
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absolutely not....please do not do this...an embolism in the alveoli sac in your.lungs can happen in only 6 feet of water...theres a good reason divers have to take lots of classes and practice to get certified.
all you have to.do.is take a breath down there and hold it up to the surface...pop....bad bad news
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steam roller is correct--embolism is no joke--totally different than surface breath-hold diving
and he's also correct that it can happen is shallow water
back in the day, when i took diving instruction that went way beyond the gear selling industry standards of today, we had to watch a navy film of a guy embolizing--guy narc'ed out in 150 ft of water and his buddy pulled him up by the tank valve, with his head cocked forward, esophagus clamped shut---not pretty---unforgettable---if anything i am excessively careful on ascent--although i dont dive anymore anyway--kinda got bored with it
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On the Snuba site they say 5m dives without injury. However, they don’t tell you that there have been quite a few more than just 5m dives. (Pretty sneaky) ;D
Having said that, if you can get some decent instruction, a good quality surface system could be fun.
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It's been many years obviously but I was NAUI certified when I was 15.....back then you had to memorize the decompression tables. I started to not be able to equalize 2 years later. Turned everything upside down for me....all I wanted until then was to be a marine biologist. Couldn't figure out at the time why. I still have a hard time. Hadn't thought of embolism possibility in shallow water...dumb. Thanks for the reminder.
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First I have not seen this product or its kickstarter link, maybe someone can post it.
I had been diving for many years, certified in 1967 when I was still 15 (may have fudged my age on the forms). Tank diving and snorkeling mostly in shallow water 60' or less in the Florida Keys reefs spearfishing and lobster catching. Then about 20 years ago was introduced to hookah diving on a Brownies 3rd lung.. in shallower reefs off Ft. Lauderdale, we stay above 40' depths.
The setup has a gas oilless compressor, floats on a tube, single hose 15' split off in a Y connector, to 2 60' hoses, to a short whip with your second stage regulator which is set up for the lighter air pressure of the compressor. There are a couple other similar products but Brownies and AirLine by Sink are the standard's. As a matter of fact I', on my 2nd Brownies and my buddy who got me hooked on it is on his 3rd system. I have the larger system that will support 4 divers at 60' depth.
MPO is yes they can be dangerous and should be used with caution. One issue is you can easily overstay your depth/time recommendations, the other is if you don't know how to breathe, (exhale on the ascent), which is drilled into your head in dive certification training you can cause serious issues. Air embolisms are serious and can happen in very shallow water.
I always recommend
Saying that we've never had an issue in 20 plus years of using the system we have. We do violate the safety recommendation of the manufacturer who recommends, compressor - 60' hose to Y with (2) 15' hoses to the divers., for our own convience.
From experience though I can say that if that system has 10' hoses its not likely you can actually dive 10'... the hoses will have a belly as you move espectally if there is any current or wind due to drag, so the working depth will be less than 75% of the free hose length or less.
That one looks like a toy.
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I have held advanced and deep water SCUBA certs for about 15 years and this hose thing scares me to death. Airway embolisms are real and can happen if you are ignorant, even at 10 feet. I guess as Krash says, the hose length mitigates some of the danger, but I still would not do it or let anyone I care about either. Good Lord, especially kids.
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ease of use vs scuba could easily lead to a more cavalier approach--seems so simple and harmless................
yikes
that said i needed to get certified, long after being taught at age 14 by a great guy (the navy embolism film guy), to be able to take a trip at one point, and i was appalled at the lack of skills on the part of folks who were getting their certifications--like plenty couldnt dream of doing doff and don in a pinch--like, they'd have been at risk of shooting to the surface if their mask got knocked off--whatever--they went off to buy equipment and spend travel$$$
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Yes to all the above. I've been diving forever tho I don't do it much now, certified rescue diver. There are a lot of staggeringly irresponsible devices on the market now to let people kill themselves under water. Mask/snorkel combinations with large air volumes that let you smother in your own CO2, little tank things you can fill yourself with a hand compressor, Snuba offered as if breathing compressed air in 10 feet of water were perfectly safe.
Idiots. Greedy, corrupt idiots that unfortunately won't get sued into a coma, they'll just grab what they can and fold.
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I've never done a dive and don't know much about diving.
Are you guys saying that SCUBA is safer than SSA (surface supplied air) diving? If so why?
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Just had a family friend die in a scuba accident. Great dad, a life long diver, and surfski guy. It's very devastating for his wife and kids. Just doing his weekly dive, but this one time he was alone. The coroner said he didn't drown though, but he did wash up on shore. They are looking at equipment failure and doing an autopsy.
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Badger--no. Both are dangerous and both require training. Go down 15 feet, breath compressed air from any source, hold your breath and shoot to the surface. The volume of air in your lungs just doubled--has to go somewhere. If you don't rupture the sack you'll likely blow out a bunch of Alvioli which are soft, gooshy, and have difficulty with a one pound change in pressure, never mind 16psi.
Talldude -- I'm a same ocean, same day kind of buddy diver. 99 percent of my dives have been alone. Relying on someone else to pay attention to you and react properly when something goes bad seems like low odds for me. Sorry to hear about your friend. There's no question that diving is dangerous.
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The greatest change in water pressure occurs in the first 33ft. of descent. If your lungs are full of air and you suddenly ascend without continuously exhaling you will definitely be at risk of air embolism. Diving and snorkeling are great sports, but can be fatal if not performed safely and with at least some basic training.
Side note but kind of similar topic: Been watching novice paddleboards take off up the beach at Makena in calm water with no wind...no leash or lifebelt or other safety equipment....then an hour later watching them try to battle hopelessly back to where they put in as the sudden strong North winds pick up. For some it will be a LONG walk home if they make it in ok. Even SUP can be dangerous.
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The greatest change in water pressure occurs in the first 33ft. of descent.
I might be missing something here but it is my understanding that pressure increases by 1 atmosphere EVERY 33 ft. Not sure what would make the first 33 ft special
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The greatest change in water pressure occurs in the first 33ft. of descent. - INCORRECT
I might be missing something here but it is my understanding that pressure increases by 1 atmosphere EVERY 33 ft. Not sure what would make the first 33 ft special - EXACTLY CORRECT
33 feet of water weighs as much as 20 miles of Atmosphere = 1 Atmosphere. The next 33 feet of Water weighs as much as a SECOND atmosphere because water is in-compressible.
From a pressure perspective it is all linear. From a danger perspective - maybe the top 33 feet are worse because more people hang out in the 0 to 33 feet range. Going deeper for longer timer periods involves nitrogen dissolving in your blood which can be a nasty problem.
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Badger--no. Both are dangerous and both require training. Go down 15 feet, breath compressed air from any source, hold your breath and shoot to the surface. The volume of air in your lungs just doubled--has to go somewhere. If you don't rupture the sack you'll likely blow out a bunch of Alvioli which are soft, gooshy, and have difficulty with a one pound change in pressure, never mind 16psi.
I thought so Bill. Thanks.
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The greatest change in water pressure occurs in the first 33ft. of descent.
I might be missing something here but it is my understanding that pressure increases by 1 atmosphere EVERY 33 ft. Not sure what would make the first 33 ft special
Mostly because diving instructors say that all the time, but there is also the volume difference of the gasses at say 66 feet vs. 33. At 33 feet the pressure is 2 atmospheres and the volume of the air filling your lungs is 1/2 as much as it would be on the surface. Ascending 33 feet doubles the volume. At 66 feet the pressure is 3atm which means the volume of the air is 1/3 of what it would be at the surface. Ascending from 66 to 33 feet changes the gas volume by 1/3. It's a difference, but it's really just fun with fractions. And it's true that the biggest volume change is from 2ATM to one.
It's more important when you're doing an emergency blow and go, which nobody practices anymore. With the crappy old gear we used to have the emergency blow and go was more like a normal ascent. So the deal is, at 150 feet you don't want to start blowing out much. For the first 33 feet you ascend the volume only changes by 1/5th. Blow too hard early on and your lungs get empty and you're too heavy--you'd need to start dropping stuff. At 100 feet to 66 feet the volume changes by 1/4. You still need to be blowing, and you might go a little harder, but really, you're going up wondering why air is still coming out of your mouth. 66 to 33, it's another third, and you're still blowing. From 33 to the surface--when you can start seeing ripples on the surface, you need to blow like hell because the volume of air remaining in your lungs is going to double.
Needless to say, that's a lot to remember when you're crapping your wetsuit because you ran out of air at 150 feet. So the rule of thumb is, don't go up any faster than your bubbles and yell all the way to the surface. Worked for me, way too many times. I dove with no pressure gauge for years, and the reserve valves NEVER work.
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For liability and safety reasons, most instructors do not make their students practice "free ascents".....probably a good thing. But back in the day when I was a NAUI instructor, it was part of our training to teach free ascents and how to safely ascend if you ran out of air. I have done it from 150 ft. and it is not easy.
Amazing how diving gear has changed. My wife and I just had 4 awesome dives @ Molokini using dive regulators/computers supplied by the guides. Pretty cool technology.....but it still doesn't buy you any more downtime than playing by the old NAVY tables for repetitive no de-compression diving.
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If nothing else I'm glad I posted this so myself and others could be reminded of the potential danger. Despite forgetting about embolism being possible I still automatically exhale as I go to the surface even just snorkeling. But I was thinking about this for my granddaughter and grandson more than anything. Scary to think what might have happened.
It's weird....I turned my back to the ocean when I found I couldn't dive. It felt like everything I wanted was gone. I was SO %$#^ing mad. I didn't want to be reminded of what I couldn't do. It took years, still played some on the surface but didn't even snorkel again until years later when my kids were young.
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Connector, I have always considered PADI to be the weenie version of NAUI. Reliance on buddy breathing for emergency ascents and an assumption that the gear is always working. If you ask a PADI diver what his dive profile was for the dive they just completed they couldn't tell you without looking at their wrist. It made diving a lot more accessible, and the better gear makes it less dangerous--until it doesn't. The old stuff is good to know when the new stuff breaks.
The notion of resort dives where someone with virtually no training dives with a divemaster is beyond nuts. I've watched the panicked reactions of untrained divers, blowing air like a bubble machine, unable to control their buoyancy, thrashing around and banging into everything. Not good.
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"I have always considered PADI to be the weenie version of NAUI. "
I
I taught back in the early 70's and PADI was just coming on the scene. I think their goal was to sell a ton of equipment and promote diving as a sport that ANYONE could do...even if you were not a swimmer.
As a water safety instructor long before I became a dive instructor, I liked the fact that NAUI put heavy emphasis on "watermanship". Most of our pool training was to weed out the poor swimmers and folks that would not make very safe divers. My NAUI instructor course was a week long grueling event of many pool exercises designed to weed out weak swimmers. I was already a very strong swimmer and I really enjoyed some of the tests they put us through to try and "break" us. Kind of like NAVY Seal training. Some of the group washed out. So yea, I guess we early NAUI instructors felt we were superior to the NASDAQ and PADI instructors.
But I am guessing that may have changed. The divemasters and shop owners of the outfit we use on MAUI seem very experienced and have thousands of hours of experience and they seem VERY safety conscious without making the experience uncomfortable. We have used B & B Scuba out of Kihei for 5 years in a row and they have always given us a great dive experience.
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"I have always considered PADI to be the weenie version of NAUI. "
Probably true, but I'll expect it varies from shop to shop. The PADI guys I certified with grilled me in every possible way. They were very serious about safety and thorough in their training.
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Ultimately it's all about the instructors or divemasters. I've done certification with both. I got good instruction both times, but PADI seemed to put a lot more emphasis on the equipment working properly, NAUI seemed a lot more aimed at preparing divers for equipment failure. PADI focused closely on a level of buddy diving that I've never experienced in the wild. Naui seemed to assume you should have a buddy, but you should be prepared to take care of yourself in an emergency. That's probably as much a sign of the times that I did the certification as it is a function of the organizations. I never saw a tank pressure gauge until the late 80's, never saw a computer until the 90's, and never saw an air-integrated computer until hmmm, I'm not sure when.
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I got my NAUI cert the same summer I got my Life saving cert and both from the same guy at the Boys Club in Allston. He was a real nice guy but an absolute prick in the water. I choked more times on regulators getting ripped from my face unexpectedly and other nasty shit. He absolutely had no qualms about trying to bring on panic. He loved playing the drowning victim in life saving classes too....panicked and trying to climb your head. He was not going to have anyone making it through that couldn't cut it. I was 6-4 220lbs of lean muscle when I was 15 and could hold my breath for an easy couple of minutes so I nailed him and wrapped him up in a cross chest carry so tight I almost broke his ribs....he wasn't too happy but I passed..... :)
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Yes, I remember those days. When I was aquatics director for the City of Salem, Oregon, I interviewed and tested all of my lifeguards personally. I could make myself pretty "heavy" on the bottom of the pool and they had to recover and then haul me out. We had some pretty awesome lifeguards......I ended up marrying one of them :)........
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I can't imagine making an emergency ascent from extremely deep waters. Never did one from that deep, but the instructors made me practice several from 35ft. After I got my certs, I always carried a "Spare Air" emergency air bottle on my BC when I dove alone. That way, should equipment ever fail, I had enough air to get to the surface. Practiced with it a few times and it worked great. No time to dawdle with it, but you can make a safe ascent breathing normally.
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I've got a spare air. Nice to have, but gear fails. And the backup to the backup is rarely maintained. Divemasters glare at me when I start talking about emergency ascents (or anything really). I never became a divemaster because the certification looks like it's mostly about teaching divers. I wouldn't mind doing ride-alongs on a six pac again, but I wore out my welcome with the dive company on Maui that knows me. Opinionated assholes tend to do that.
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Our friend that recently died in a diving accident was from a pulmonary embolism. There was no water in his lungs. He'd been diving weekly for over 30 years.
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Our friend that recently died in a diving accident was from a pulmonary embolism. There was no water in his lungs. He'd been diving weekly for over 30 years.
That's kind of a mystery. Experienced divers should not die of a pulmonary embolism.
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Our friend that recently died in a diving accident was from a pulmonary embolism. There was no water in his lungs. He'd been diving weekly for over 30 years.
That's kind of a mystery. Experienced divers should not die of a pulmonary embolism.
They believe it was some kind of equipment failure. I don't know if they are testing the equipment? Not really a question I'l be asking next time I see his wife or kids.
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diving is very dangerous--to mix it with profit-motive and mass market potential is worrisome--self advocacy, whenever diving, is key--even if you annoy, as PB does! effing questions!!
but seriously---diving? if something prompts a question--ASK!
there's a reason divers cant get anywhere near preferred rates on life insurance policies